Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Hexcel Q2 2021 Earnings Conference Call. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today, Mr. Patrick Winterlich, Chief Financial Officer.
Thank you. Please go ahead, sir.
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Hexcel Corporation's Q2 2021 Earnings Conference Call. Before beginning, let me cover the formalities. I want to remind everyone about the Safe Harbor provisions related to any forward looking statements we may make during the course of this call.
Certain statements contained in this call may constitute forward looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. They involve estimates, assumptions, and uncertainties caused by a variety of factors that could cause future actual results or outcomes to differ materially from our forward looking statements today. Such factors are detailed in the company's SEC filings and last night's news release. So, Corporation and its copyrighted material. It cannot be recorded or rebroadcast without our expressed permission.
Your participation on this call constitutes your consent to that request. With me today are Nick Stanage, our Chairman, CEO and President and Kirk Goddard, our Vice President of Investor Relations. The purpose of the call is to review our Q2 20 1 results detailed in our news release issued yesterday. Now let me turn the call over to Nick.
Thanks, Patrick. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today as we share our 2nd quarter results and look ahead to the second half of the year. The global COVID pandemic is far from over, With the growing availability of vaccinations, there is cautious yet positive momentum as domestic travel appears to be on the rebound And aircraft backlogs have started to grow again. While there remains uncertainty ahead, our focus has shifted toward a return to growth. All of us recognize that the past year and a half has been unprecedented.
The global pandemic required Hexcel to take aggressive and swift restructuring actions, which we did. We also took advantage of the lower production levels to drive Cost and Efficiency Improvements. These efforts have positioned us to exit the pandemic more focused and more efficient for a strong rebound. The way our team responded to the challenges has been phenomenal and as reflected in the results we reported in our news release last night. Our rough start to the year continued into the second quarter with results in line with or slightly ahead of our expectations.
We achieved strong margin performance despite lower year over year sales as a result of a favorable margin mix from higher carbon fiber sales. Combined with efficiency improvements and reductions in our overhead costs, We were able to deliver $0.08 of adjusted EPS for the quarter. If you remember back to the Q2 of 2020, We also reported $0.08 of adjusted EPS, however, on sales that were almost 17% higher in constant currency. This demonstrates the cost controls actions that we took quickly in 2020 and that continue today are making a significant difference in the sustained value we offer to our shareholders. As we anticipated last quarter, We believe inventory destocking is largely behind us as we move into the second half of the year.
Specifically, Destocking for the A320 and 737 MAX are basically complete. The wide body still have some inventory to burn through And we expect that will take a few more months to align with announced build rates. We are encouraged that airlines such as United are placing orders with the commercial aerospace OEMs as revenue passenger kilometers continue to grow around the world. Delivery declined in June for both Airbus and Boeing, which we believe is further evidence that we, along with our customers, are beginning to emerge from the effects of this pandemic driven downturn. However, while we anticipate gradual increases in build rates in the coming months, We recognize that it will take some time for rates to return to 2019 levels.
Even with vaccines restoring confidence in travel, there are uncertainties with additional variants of the COVID-nineteen virus spreading. U. S. Air travel is steadily increasing, but still about 25% lower than before the pandemic. European travel is improving.
However, the recovery is slower with flights remaining about 50% lower than pre pandemic levels. So while we see some encouraging signs and are planning for increased demand and a gradual recovery, we recognize that the effects of the pandemic on commercial space and our business are likely to remain for some time. Even so, we are very excited about the future and pride ourselves on our relentless drive for continuous improvement. With that in mind, we have taken full advantage Of this time to deepen our customer relationships, which have never been stronger, to further improve our processes and to build our broad portfolio and our commitment to continued innovation. We announced in May that we are building a flagship center of excellence Research and Technology in the U.
S. To support next generation developments in advanced composite technologies. When it opens in 2022 at our Salt Lake City campus, it will be our largest center for innovation and product development in North America and other employees will work at the new center, including many of the experienced and talented R and T employees currently working in Dublin, California. We will eventually sell the property in California with the proceeds expected to fund a significant portion of our construction costs for the new center. With about 100,000 square feet of laboratory and office space and the latest state of the art testing equipment, that will allow us to expand our research to further develop new products and processes and provide an even greater opportunity for us to collaborate with our customers on the latest in advanced composites technology to deliver innovative solutions and support future growth.
Design efforts are well underway and we expect to break ground in the Q4 of this year. We're excited to make this investment in innovation today to ensure our continued leadership tomorrow. I look forward to inviting many of you to visit once the site opens toward the end of next year. I recently completed touring all of our U. S.
Locations to conduct site readiness reviews. What I found during these site visits thrilled me. Our workforce is engaged, focused and highly motivated for a return to growth. The caliber of site leadership and the Shop 4 teams across our plants is truly outstanding. I will show numerous examples of increased productivity, significant process enhancements and a long list of continuous improvement projects our team has implemented across our manufacturing footprint during the pandemic to reduce costs, further enhance worker safety and job quality and to position Hexcel to expand margins as growth returns.
The ability of the Supply chain to ramp up remains a watch item for us and we are working very closely with our suppliers to successfully overcome any challenges that arise. The same focus applies to our labor requirements, which I'm happy to say are growing once again. At this point, we have been able to attract the labor we need, yet we anticipate further challenges, which we'll address through robust recruitment, planning and continuing to stay in lockstep with our customers. Now let me highlight some of the results from the quarter. Aerospace sales of $154,000,000 were down almost 25% compared to the Q2 of last year.
Narrow body demand is recovering quickly with 2nd quarter sales reaching their highest level since the Q1 of 2020. Sales to other commercial aerospace such as regional and business aircraft were down 27% compared to 2020. Business jets is the largest portion of this sector and sales continue to recover, but remain lower year over year. Space and Defense sales were about $107,000,000 which represents relatively flat year over year performance affected primarily by pandemic related production delays. As you know, we have significant content on both the Lockheed Martin F-thirty 5 and Sikorsky CH-fifty 3 ks with these platforms receiving new orders within the past month.
Both will continue to be strong programs for us as well as the 100 plus other defense and space programs in this sector. Industrial sales were about $60,000,000 during the quarter, which was a 15% decline in constant currency. Wind Energy sales, which is the largest submarket in Industrial declined 44%, which reflects ongoing softer demand along with the previously reported closure of our wind blade pre preg production facility in North America last November. In addition, Solid sales in other industrial markets including automotive and recreation helped offset reduced wind energy sales during the quarter. Throughout the pandemic, we have maintained a strong focus on cash.
And in the first half, our free cash flow was almost $30,000,000 compared to just over $33,000,000 for the 1st 6 months of 2020. Before I turn the call over to Patrick, I want to provide a brief update on our activities related to sustainability. Sustainability is at the heart of Hexcel, Innovating and producing modern, lightweight, advanced composite materials, enabling the evolution of more aerodynamic, Fuel Efficient Aircraft Producing Significantly Lower Emissions Than Older Generation Aircraft. More broadly, responsibility has been one of our 4 primary values for many years and it calls on us to highlighted in our sustainability report first published several years ago and we are now excited to participate in the Carbon Disclosure Project or CDP. Initially, the CDP report will be submitted selectively to some of our customers this year and we expect to share next year's submittal publicly.
We recognize that many of our investors evaluate our progress in relation to sustainability and especially our ongoing work to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and you can be assured of our continued strong focus and actions on this topic. Now I'll turn it over to Patrick to provide more details on the numbers.
Thank you, Nick. As a reminder, the year over year comparisons are in constant currency. The majority of our sales are denominated in dollars. However, our cost base is a mix of dollars, euros and British pounds as we have a significant manufacturing presence in Europe. As a result, when the dollar strengthens against the euro and the pound, our sales translate lower, while our costs also translate lower leading to a net benefit to our margins.
Conversely, a weak dollar is a headwind to our financial results. We hedge this currency exposure over a 10 quarter horizon to Protect Our Operating Income. Quarterly sales totaled $320,300,000 The sales decrease year over year reflects production rate decreases by our commercial aerospace customers in response to the pandemic combined with the continued supply chain destocking. You will recall that in the Q2 of 2020 OEM production rates were only beginning to be reduced midway through the quarter and the supply chain destocking had not yet begun to any great degree. I say this is a reminder to consider when evaluating and the year over year sales comparisons.
Turning to our 3 markets. Commercial Aerospace represented approximately 48 percent of total second quarter sales. 2nd quarter commercial aerospace sales of $153,700,000 decreased 24.8% compared to the Q2 of 2020 as destocking continues. We believe Substantial destocking is now behind us as we enter the Q3 of 2021 and that our narrow body production is generally aligned with OEM production rates. However, our wide body sales are still facing some lingering supply chain adjustments that are expected to conclude by the end of the summer.
Space and Defense represented 33% for 2nd quarter sales and totaled $106,900,000 decreasing 2.7% from the same period in 2020. While the demand outlook remains favorable for Composite Sector Growth to enhance performance and extend capabilities, quarter to quarter sales can fluctuate as we experienced in the 2nd quarter. Lockheed Martin has publicly commented that F-thirty five deliveries in 2021 will be lower than expectations on pandemic induced disruptions, which impacts the supply chain and our deliveries. Sales were also softened due to some short term pandemic related interruptions impacting other programs, including a number of space orientated platforms with customers located outside of the United States. Industrial comprised 19 2nd Quarter 2021 Sales.
Industrial sales totaled $59,700,000 decreasing 15.1% compared to the Q2 of 2020. Wind demand remains subdued, while other industrial markets including automotive and recreation witnessed growth in the Q2 of 2021. Wind Energy represented approximately 45% of 2nd quarter industrial sales. On a consolidated basis, gross margin for the Q2 was 19.3% compared to 14.5% in the Q2 of 2020. The strengthening gross margin benefited in the quarter from a higher mix of carbon fiber sales and production.
Section. Our margin recovery will not be a completely smooth quarterly progression though as it will be impacted at times by step ups in the utilization of major assets such as Precursor and Carbon Fiber Lines. 2nd quarter selling, general and administrative expenses increased 24.3% or $7,000,000 in constant currency year over year. Research and technology expenses decreased 3.2% in constant currency. The other expense category consisted primarily of restructuring costs in Europe.
In terms of the year over year comparison of SG and A expenses. The Q2 of 2020 was artificially low as pandemic induced restructuring actions led to non recurring reductions in stock compensation accruals as well as the temporary implementation of salary reductions. 21 percent or $8,400,000 compared to the pre pandemic Q2 of 2019. Our targeted $150,000,000 of annualized overhead cost savings has been fundamentally achieved at the end of the second quarter. As we now pivot to increasing sales and production levels, our focus will be to drive efficiencies and minimize the amount of costs that return, while at the same time preparing for significant growth.
Adjusted operating income in the second quarter was $19,300,000 reflecting strong variable margin performance and robust overhead cost control. The year over year impact of exchange rates was favorable by approximately 70 basis points. Now turning to our 2 segments. The Composite Materials segment represented 75% of total sales and generated a 9.6% operating margin compared to 6.3% in the prior year period. Adjusting for non recurring costs, the adjusted Compasses Materials Trading margin in the current period was 10.7% compared to 8.9% in Q2 2020.
The Engineered Products segment, which is comprised of our Structures and Engineered core businesses, represented 25% of total sales and generated a 7.4 percent operating income margin or 7.6% adjusted operating margin compared to 2.6 percent adjusted operating margin in the Q2 of 2020. The adjusted effective tax rate for the Q2 of 2021 was 18.8%. The pandemic and consequent mix of results across the countries in which we operate is expected to continue to impact the company's overall effective tax rate throughout 2021. Net cash generated by operating activities was $38,900,000 year to date. Working capital was a use of $19,600,000 year to date primarily related primarily due to increased receivables.
Capital expenditures on an accrual basis were $3,800,000 in the Q2 of 2021 compared to $11,500,000 for the prior year period in 2020. Capital expenditures continue to be tightly managed with a focus on improving existing asset efficiency and new technology flexibility. Free cash flow for the Q2 of 2021 was $35,800,000 compared to $51,800,000 in the prior year period. Continued tight cost control and lower capital expenditures are supporting free cash flow generation. Liquidity at the end of the Q2 of 2021 consisted of $115,000,000 of cash and an undrawn revolver balance of $543,000,000 Our liquidity remains well above the bank covenant minimum of $250,000,000 and we have no near term debt maturities.
Our revolver matures in 2024 and our 2 senior notes maturing 20252027 respectively. Our share repurchase program is restricted through March 31, 2022 by the revolver amendment executed in January 2021. Dividends also remain suspended at the current time. Our Board continues to regularly evaluate capital allocation priorities. As our earnings release states, we are not providing financial guidance at this time.
However, I would like to reinforce and expand upon financial outlook shared during the Q1 2021 earnings call. We continue to expect 2021 annual sales below than 2020 and below the current market consensus due to recent commercial aerospace production rate adjustments. The remainder of our previously stated expectations remain largely unchanged, including Some additional restructuring costs are anticipated in the remaining quarters of 2021 and are expected to be below 1st and second quarter levels. We continue to expect the fiscal year 2021 adjusted operating margin percentage to be in the low single digits. Capital expenditure in 2021 will continue to be managed closely and are expected for the full year to be at a similar level to 2020.
We expect to generate positive free cash flow in 2021 and further reduce debt levels. We expect the effective tax rate to be approximately 25% in 2021. Lastly, repeating some broad context from the Q1's earning call in April, we continue to target strong mid teens plus operating margins once we achieve sales in the range of $1,800,000 to $1,900,000 and we are targeting to exceed prior peak margins when we return to previous peak sales levels. With that, let me turn the call back to Nick.
Thanks, Patrick. We believe the worst is behind us and we are cautiously optimistic of a continued and steady recovery during the remainder of 2021 that will propel us into 2022 when we expect a significant return to growth, which will extend into 2023 beyond. Without a doubt, some of this growth will come from pent up demand for air travel, Yes, much of it also comes from airlines ready to replace older, less efficient aircraft with more aerodynamic and fuel efficient solutions as the world demands long term reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. No company has a broader or more vertically integrated portfolio of strong, durable and lightweight advanced composite solutions that lead to fewer emissions than Hexcel. The market is demanding lighter yet high performing materials and we anticipate strong pull for our entire portfolio from carbon fiber to prepreg to Engineering Core for many years to come.
Additionally, no team is better prepared to meet a quick ramp up than our Hexcel team. Over the past several months, while demand retracted, we plan for the inevitable rebound. We have become more efficient, more cost effective and more competitive than ever. Throughout the downturn, we have improved our processes to ensure that we continue making gains, especially in employee safety, quality and on time delivery. Certainly, there are risks ahead and especially so within the supply chain and the availability of raw materials and labor.
It comes down to staying focused and aligned with our customers and we intend to do just that. I am excited about the path ahead. Thanks to our great team and our commitment to innovation and continuous improvement through operational excellence. We are poised to drive strong incremental profits, generate robust cash flow and deliver increasing returns to our shareholders. Katrina, we'll now turn it over to you for questions.
Thank you, session. Our first question is from Robert Spingarn from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.
Good morning.
Good morning, Robert.
This is sort of a two sided question on related to margins. But Patrick, I guess your implied 2nd half margin is a little bit lower than the first half. And does that have to do with your comments just now on sales? Or Are there some other things at work here? I wanted to factor in inflation here on raw materials and see if you could talk a little bit about that as well if you're covered through hedges not only through the end of this year but into next year as well.
Yes. Hi, Robert. So just to be clear, I'm not so quarter 2 was strong. I think that's what I said. I would not necessarily say that the second half of the year is going to be lower than the first half The year if you look at the first half of the year being 3.4%.
But the second quarter was strong because of the mix driven by the strong variable margin because of the carbon fiber mix and you combine that with the efficiencies we talked about and the ongoing cost savings which will still be there in the 2nd part of the year, but we may not always have the same strong favorable mix. So that I think hopefully that gives a context. In terms of inflationary pressures then clearly they exist in the world today. What I would say is that the Hexcel team And our contracts are doing a great job to help them there. We have long term back to back purchase contracts with pricing that's fixed.
So a lot of our key resins, the pricing won't move our commercial resins. Acrylonitrile, the base sort of raw material for our carbon fiber we hedge out. It won't stop the price moving up, but it will smooth that and certainly protect us from any dramatic impact this year. There is some inflationary pressure on things like our industrial resins, but again those contracts give us a pass through maybe with a quarter delay, but to some extent again we're protected. So around the edges and freight may be an area where we'll see some inflationary pressure, But it shouldn't be material to our margins as we close out the year.
Okay.
And then just Nick, if I could squeeze in just a quick one for you. But this A350 freighter opportunity, could you just speak to that for a moment? It sounds like that would be good. And would an aircraft like that have more or less carbon fiber content?
Well, obviously, from our perspective, more fuel efficient, advanced lightweight aircraft that have a life of 30 years is a great thing and especially the A350 being adopted as a freighter variant is exciting for us. So obviously a good thing. We do not anticipate a significant change in the ship set content going from a passenger version to a freighter version. But We're certainly excited and hopeful that both Airbus and Boeing launch new Advanced Aircraft for freighter versions going forward.
Thank you.
Thank you, Robert.
The next question is from John McNulty from BMO Capital Markets. Your Line is open.
Yes. Thanks for taking my question. Maybe just 2 related ones on the cost side. So Nick, you had indicated you were adding Labor weren't really having any problems with that. Should we be thinking about that as when normally when you bring up a new facility, there's a little bit of a ramp up or learning curve and there's some inefficiencies early on.
Is that something we should be assuming with the people that you're bringing on now? Or are these more experienced? And then I guess The second question would just be on the R and D front where right now you're kind of running at a 20% or 25% lower level than you had kind of in the pre COVID world. I guess can you speak to the efficiencies that you've learned and can kind of work with in that lower cost environment and how we should be thinking about R and D ramping up as we look forward over the next year or so.
Okay. So let me start with the R and T. We certainly would expect R and T to grow above 2nd quarter levels and we're putting plans in place for that as we speak. With respect to labor and efficiencies, many of the add backs have been experienced Hexcel employees and throughout my visit it was exciting to welcome them back and to see the excitement in their eyes and motivation and enthusiasm. So we really have not had any issues in bringing back experienced people.
Certainly, anticipating some tightness in those markets and we're being pretty aggressive in how we're We don't see a big learning curve or think that you should anticipate 1.
Got it. Thanks very much for the color.
Thanks, John.
Our next question is from Gautam Khanna from Cowen. Your line is open.
Yes. I was wondering, Patrick, could you elaborate on where you're seeing some continued destocking, like Which wide body program or programs?
Well, I think the simple answer is all of them. I think we're probably we're less so in the $350,000,000 We're probably going to get through that program destocking first, we're really reflecting that that ramp down happened a little bit earlier and a little bit faster. The 787 ramp down from 14 to 10 to 6 to 5 probably happened a little bit later. So That's going to linger a bit further and perhaps separate to the pandemic destocking, but obviously we're now There's some more sort of delays around the 787. I think it will be a limited amount of destocking, but we could see that even sort of carry on later in the year.
So it's all wide bodies, but hopefully the 350 to finish soon, the 787s carry on a little bit longer.
Okay. And just a definitional question on destocking. Are you seeing that In general, you guys are below on the wide bodies, you're below the official assembly rate That's going in there, but on the narrow bodies, you're in line with the official assembly rate. I'm just curious like Because we hear that certain people on the supply chain are running at 3 a month on the A350, whereas Airbus is obviously assembling at a higher rate allegedly. I'm just curious like in general by destocking are we talking like you're synced up with the assembly rate on the narrow bodies and not to elsewhere.
Thank you.
So I'll take a shot at that. So Widebodies, clearly, we were well under the production rates stated by the OEs. And again, that's the supply chain adjustment, the destocking to get down to the new stable rates. The narrow bodies, basically, we've seen that wind down with respect to the delta between The stated OEM build rates and our ship to rates and pretty much based on the demand, The visibility that we have with the OEMs and their supply chain, which we're paying very close attention to above and beyond what we typically do. We're seeing that subside and that's why we have confidence that the narrow bodies are pretty much Behind us with potentially just immaterial amount carrying on the real items will be the wide body and some trickle through the summer.
Okay. Thank you very much guys.
Our next question is from Myles Walton from UBS. Your line is open.
Thanks. Good morning. Good morning.
Good morning.
Patrick, I think you said that you expect 'twenty one just from a sensitivity perspective to be below 2020 sales and that consensus should be below that. I don't think consensus has moved since last quarter when you thought you'd be in line. I'm just curious is the only change that you've seen sort of that maybe 10 or 15 fewer shipsets on the 87 because of what Boeing is doing or are there other moving parts as well?
Well, there's a million moving parts, but the most significant thing is definitely the 787 miles, yes.
Okay. But from a magnitude perspective, that's what the delta ish Yes.
From a materiality perspective, that's the largest for sure.
Okay, Perfect. And then obviously, you had great margin performance in Composite Materials. And you mentioned the Carbon Fiber mix, but I guess the other mix that I would have guessed worked against you would be the industrial mix as a percentage. And maybe I'm not level set, but I thought industrial margins generally would below and obviously that mix was nicely or was higher than your aero and defense mix. Was there something special about the industrial mix that was not as dilutive?
No.
I mean, you're right. I mean, the only thing I can point to is the absolute dollars for those industrial sales relative To the aero sales and the higher fiber sales, obviously, it's kind of weighted down. There is a small dilutive impact. You're 100% correct. But I think given the relative dollar values of the sales, it's overall it becomes very marginal.
Okay. All right. I'll let it go there. Thanks.
Our next question from Pete Skibitski from Alembic Global. Your line is open.
Yes. Good morning, guys. Patrick, just wondering if you could provide us any more color on maybe the cadence of margins in the back half of the year. I would think you guys would have some feel for the mix in 3Q and 4Q. And then also, it sounds like you talked about the step up in Passive utilization.
I would think you'd have some feel for that. So are we thinking that 3Q will be down on a little bit higher volume in the 3rd quarter, but maybe 4th quarter is the high for the year? I'm just wondering if you could
Yes. I'm really not going to get into a quarterly guidance on margin cadence. I mean, what I will say is, I pointed out 3.4%. I said it's going to be low single digits for the whole year. I'll go as far as saying, I don't think there's going to be anything dramatically different between Q3 and Q4.
But I think We're not going to get into quarterly specifics.
Okay. All right. Fair enough. Maybe just one last one for me then. You guys, I thought, had an interesting release Earlier this month with regard to doing some work for Resini in automotive suspension provider and there was talk about, I guess I'm being a mass production automotive supplier.
So just wondering is this Are you guys feeling like this could be a big breakthrough in the automotive space for you guys? Or is it way too early? How promising could this be?
Well, I'm not going to go as far as to say a big breakthrough, but I am excited with the advancements that our team continue to make on new products, new processes, not only for quick curing to make the solutions even more efficient. So we continue to do well, very well with European car manufacturers and BMW being one of the leaders in that pack. So Again, we have multiple initiatives underway to work with our customers to help Some identified solutions that put them in a better position to win in the marketplace. So we feel good about that and look forward to continued growth.
Thanks guys.
Our next question is from David Strauss from Barclays. Your line is open.
Thanks. Good morning. Good morning, David. Good morning.
Nick, as we think about in the 2022 and 2023, just given the level of the magnitude of the stocking that you've seen. Would you actually expect to see a bit of a restocking effect on the other side? So what I'm implying is that Your rates could be above the actual manufacturer production rates as we get on the other side of this, at least for a little bit of time?
That's a great point, David. And we've actually spent a fair amount of time making sure we're not surprised by Some incremental buffer that will be required in the various supply chains. Obviously, the 320 with the most aggressive And near term ramp rate is an item we're looking at, but wide bodies as well. As the rate starts to come back, I do think Some of the supply chain probably has driven down their inventory to preserve cash and maybe tighter than what they can run at higher rates. So we're definitely putting that into our forecast and our evaluation to make sure we're not caught short.
Okay. And Nick, could you just maybe level set us in terms of Where you stand from a capacity utilization standpoint, say, thinking mainly on the composite material side?
And utilization? Capacity utilization.
Oh, capacity utilization. Well, it varies. I mean, in my tour of the U. S. Sites, I saw sites that were basically running full out and areas with and plants that are basically at or near capacity while we have other assets and sites idled.
So Around fiber, Patrick pointed out that we continue to ramp up precursor and carbon fiber assets throughout the year And we plan to do more before the end of the year, but we still have a fair amount of capacity in place That will present the need for major CapEx investments for a few years. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks, David.
Our next question is from Haretosh Misra from Berenberg. Your line is open.
Thanks and good morning. Can you talk about your Other Commercial Aerospace category, the business in regional jet. In terms of what sort of build rate and demand ramp up are you expecting in the second half and how are the inventories in that business are looking?
Well, we Don't specifically get into build rates. I can tell you, we're excited on the new platforms, some of which are Just coming into production with Gulfstream. We're excited with opportunities we have with the salt and potential big wins in that space. Obviously, similar to commercial aerospace, there's a migration to more efficient Composite Aircraft and Components and we love the space for that. Clearly, there's a long way to go to catch up with pre pandemic levels, but we've seen some optimism with respect to hours, flight hours and the demand on the business jet, especially the larger class size.
And again, we remain excited and bullish on that for the balance of the year.
Thanks for that, Nick. And maybe if I could ask one more. Just going back to the labor issue, given the narrow body build rate ramp up ahead. Do you have any sense as to how much in terms of headcount increase you'll have to implement over the next 6 to 12 months.
Well, we're not going to give that. Perhaps when we give next year's guidance, we'll elaborate a bit. But I can Hello. One of the specific sites I visited in the last couple of weeks is recently ramped up Calling back 100 people. So every site is different.
We're bringing people in As the demand necessitates and we're pretty much in lockstep. I would also say We're continuing to drive the continuous improvement projects. So we're even bringing in some labor To work on those advancements and productivity enhancements that will pay dividends down the road as rates return.
Thanks, Nick. I appreciate the color.
You're welcome.
Our next question is from Robert Stallard from Vertical Research. Your line is open.
Thanks so much. Good morning.
Good morning.
Nick, since the last call 3 months ago, we've seen Airbus give an update on its build rates And not really much change on the A350 looking out over the next couple of years. And of course Boeing has also cut the 787 again. So I was wondering if this news has pushed out your expectation for when the widebody side of your business will get back to full rate.
Actually, it hasn't. I'll tell you, again, this is from my perspective after getting out In the U. S. And hitting every one of our sites, seeing how our team has rapidly ramped back up to travel, to visit customers, to visit suppliers to visit our sites. There's no doubt in my mind, global travel is going to come back and it's going to come back strongly.
Now vaccines have to accelerate, borders have to open up, but I can tell you for myself to get into Europe to visit our sites, to visit our customers is imperative going forward. So personally, based on all the data and all the market News that I keep up on. I'm more optimistic on business coming back quicker than was anticipated 6, 12 months ago.
Okay. And then earlier on in your commentary, you noted that there's still uncertainty related to the pandemic around giving guidance. I was wondering if there's one specific thing or several things that you need to see clarify themselves before you feel comfortable enough giving financial guidance again.
Well, I don't know if it's one thing, but certainly getting Europe to open the borders so that there can be free travel, unrestricted travel between the U. S. And Europe and Europe and the U. S. That's paramount for us to get back up and having confidence on where we are.
At the same time, the rates and the stability And I always look to our customers, Airbus and Boeing and when they start providing guidance. So I'm optimistic That we're going to see that as we come into the second half and put us in a great position for 2022, but time will tell.
Okay. That's great. Thank you very much.
You're welcome.
Our next question is from Richard Saffron from Seaport Global. Your line is open.
Nick, Patrick, Kurt, good morning.
How are you? Good morning. Good morning. Great.
So I wanted to ask you first about Space and Defense, for rotorcraft. Roxy noted some improvement in rotorcraft, helicopters. It's RMS segment. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here saying it really out performed in 2Q. So I was wondering if you'd comment on with respect to what you're seeing in Space and Defense with rotorcraft.
Are the RMS results something where we could see a pickup in the back half?
Yes. I mean, I think if you take Roadcraft Particularly, I mean, it's going well, 'twenty one quarterly sales are above 2020 sales, including Q1 2020. So a nice positive trend, CH-53K and other platforms starting to step up and move in the right direction. I don't think it's going to I think it will be a steady increase through the rest of this year and into 2022, but which I think is what we've called out Generally across our space and defense market that we expect to see sort of medium to long term low single digit growth and Rotocraft falls within that. I mean commercial, civil helicopters, whatever, are a pretty low percentage.
It is dominated by the military
Thanks for that. Nick, I just wanted to follow-up very quickly on a comment you just made about Business Jets. Would you be willing to comment if you're seeing a bit of a pickup in small and mid cabin aircraft? I know in an earlier quarter, you had made some comments about it. I thought Just maybe you have a remark or 2 on that.
Well, again, I think the traffic And if you look at the data on used aircraft and the sale is positive momentum. And again, not much more color other than it pretty much stood out that the large class Was leading the pack with respect to the growth and the recovery. I expect and anticipate that the mid and smaller class will follow soon.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Our next question run is from Mike Sison from Wells Fargo. Your line is open.
Hi, this is actually Richard on for Mike. Hi, Richard. Hi, Richard. Hi. Just on the Industrial segment, just curious, you noticed Strength in Automotive and Recreation.
Maybe just one more color on that. And also what is the The current state of the wind energy market, have we seen that bottom out? Have we seen any change in sort of customers on the supply chains and that type of thing.
Yes. So I'll take a shot and Patrick can And some additional color. With respect to the industrial market, again, there's 30 plus segments in there and we anticipate, monitor, contribute to all of them. Obviously, the automotive, we've got certain differentiated technology. We continue to We continue to work with the OEs, especially on the premium and in the high performance To find opportunities where we can differentiate and offer advanced solutions utilizing our technology and materials.
Marine has stepped up nicely as well as rack and we've got various wins within both categories, none of which individually Move the needle significantly, but they all add up and we continue to pursue those. So, Patrick?
Yes. I mean, I think that's right. I mean, and just sort of reflecting back on Myles' question as well a little bit. I mean, you have to think some of the things we supply into industrial high end automotive are woven carbon fiber. And so margins associated with that Sort of those sales, those product lines are not greatly below some of the aerospace lines.
Now overall, they are lower on average And it is slightly dilutive, but I think there is a mix. And certainly, as Nick was alluding to, the high end auto pulls a lot of fabric And where that's Hexcel Carbon Fiber that can be attractive business.
Great. And just on, I guess, the Composite Materials, the increased mix of carbon fiber that you mentioned, do you expect that mix Continue to be the same going forward for us this year or what's your expectation?
Well, I tried to kind of allude to that in the script. It's going to be a little bit lumpy. I mean, we've obviously got the growth we have now, but as other Product lines come back. The mix gets diluted a bit. And so we will occasionally see a step up in carbon fiber and that will help a particular quarter and give us a boost.
I mean, I'm not talking significant changes quarter to quarter, but It depends on the overall mix. I wouldn't assume that every single quarter is going to get the same Carbon Fiber Mix Boost. I think that's the simple answer.
Great. Thank you.
Our next question is from Sheila Kahyaoglu from Jefferies. Your line is open.
Hey, good morning, Nick and Patrick. Patrick, you might as well give guidance at this point because we're asking you all the questions anyway. On the seventyseventy stocking lingering a little bit longer, can you tell us how you're thinking about that lingering and what that impact on profitability would be given In the last quarter, you quantified or kind of gave us some guidelines on the A350 and what that would mean for profitability?
The line is breaking up a little bit, Sheila, but I think you were asking about the 787 impact for the rest of the year. I mean, obviously, we don't have specifics. Boeing have called out they're going to operate at a Below rate 5 level for a period of time. We're staying very close to that and we'll flex Appropriately, obviously having gone through a fairly significant destocking related to the pandemic, Hopefully, there shouldn't be too much, but there may be some and I think I mentioned that earlier. So we're staying agile and that also kind of My comments around the sort of revenue expectations for the year, we obviously see an impact from that 787 adjustment.
And you meant something on the A350, Sheila. Could you repeat that?
Yes, sorry, Patrick. If you could hear me now. On the A350, last quarter you mentioned and that Nick corrected me nicely, but on the A350 you mentioned at some point when you were at 5 per month you were at Double Digit Peacash Margin. So kind of how we think about the 787 impact on your profitability profile?
I mean the 787 is a great program. It's obviously a smaller program than the 350 for us. We want all the programs to come back. I mean the point we were making was specifically we were kind of trying to tell the world, Don't think we have to get back to rate 10 on the A350 in order to make mid teens plus margins. That That was the specific point.
Now obviously if we can bring back 787 sales and the 350 creeps from 5 to 6 That's just going to help boost us to mid teens and high teens performance.
Okay. Thank you.
Thanks, Sheila.
Our next question is from Noah Poponak from Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.
Hey, good morning. Good morning, Noah. Patrick, if I just plugged in your 2Q operating margin into the 3rd Q4, It would make the full year shake out to something in the mid to high fours. So By guiding to low single digit, if I define that as below 5, it sounds like you're telling us that the 3rd Q4 will average Something less than the Q2, is that fair?
Your overall shape is about right Noah. Let's say that low single digits is below 5. Yes, I agree with that.
Okay. And the discussion on the longer term margin and where it can be when you're back to $1,800,000,000 to $1,900,000,000 of total company revenue or you were a to $19,000,000,000 of total company revenue, where you were a few years ago. At that Point in time, the margin was kind of 17%, 18%. In calling it mid teens rather than just getting back to where you used to be. Is that purely a function of wide body and you can be a little bit below where it used to be, but close with much lower wide body rates because of everything you've done on the cost side and you would just need wide body Closer to where it used to be to get all the way back.
I think it's really just the degree of that we're putting out there. I mean, we're saying mid teens plus, it could be 16%, 17%. We're obviously looking to drive it as much as possible. As we called out previously, holding on to as much of the $150,000,000 overhead takeout to overcome the depreciation headwind is a key part of this. A little bit of mix is going to impact it, but absolutely when we get to the $1.8 $1.9 level, We will be looking to push to the same levels we were previously.
Perhaps we're being a little bit cautious in saying mid teens plus, But we will be driving it as strongly as we can.
Got it. And just last piece of that, Is the depreciation obviously, you have much higher depreciation today than you did in the historical period of time you're referencing. Is that the entire depreciation variance you're referencing or is there still a little bit more of that ahead of you?
Well, I mean the depreciation difference is going to be what $60,000,000 $65,000,000 That's essentially what I'm talking about is the headwind.
Okay. And that being today versus call it 2016?
Yes. So we've got about well, I'm kind of looking forward a year or 2 by the time it's going to take us to get to $1.8,000,000 $1.9 Our depreciation is not going to grow very much at all. And I'm just looking back exactly to 20 fifteen-twenty 16 levels. Yes.
Got it. Okay. Thanks so much.
Our last question is from Ron Epstein from Bank of America. Your line is
open.
Mr. Epstein, your line is now open.
Sorry about that. I was on mute. Hey, good morning, guys. Maybe just a question, a bigger picture question on composites in general. And maybe in 2 parts.
1, where do we stand on cold cure and the ability to get composite throughput quicker because that seems like that would be something that would be good for future narrow body. And then 2, how should we think about the recent issues 787 and what that means for composite usage on aircraft given the production difficulty that they had. Is that just a Boeing specific thing Or is that a composite? Thanks.
So first thing Ron, I'll I'll address the cold cure and whether it's cold cure or accelerating cure rates in conjunction with accelerating lay down rates and whether or not auto plays are needed or not that all helps The entitlement grow within the aerospace. And clearly, you can imagine that's a large portion of our focus, Whether we're talking about industrial applications for automotive or working with the OEs on the next new narrow body material. So Curing, the efficiency of curing, the ability to make even more product near net shapes using composite It's just going to continue to grow and the entitlement is going to follow. With respect to the 787, let's not forget airplanes are Big Complex Devices. And last I remember, there were problems with aluminum and metal planes in the past.
So I view this as and I don't have the specific details, but some escape that was discovered based on the scrutiny that Boeing is putting on their products and they took a step back And decided to fix it very quickly by taking down some of the rate on the 787. So I expect them to put this behind them very quickly. And I would also add that I think what both Boeing and Airbus and many of our other customers have continued to find is that the composite manufacturing processes have evolved dramatically and the efficiencies and cost benefits in the processing that keep in mind Composite planes are relatively new compared to metal planes, but the progress made is phenomenal and is going to continue to accelerate. So I look at this as a development production item that will be resolved and composites will continue to prosper.
Great. Thank you very much.
Thank you, speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, This concludes today's conference. Thank you for your participation and have a wonderful day. You may all disconnect.