Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the IAC and Angi Q4 Earnings Presentations. I'm Christopher Halpin, CFO of IAC. Joining me today are Joey Levin, CEO of IAC and Chairman of Angi, Oisin Hanrahan, CEO of Angi Inc., and Neil Vogel, CEO of Dotdash Meredith. Similar to last quarter, supplemental to our quarterly earnings release, IAC has also published its quarterly shareholder letter.
We will not be reading the shareholder letter on this call. It is currently available on the in the investor relations section of IAC's website. I will shortly turn the call over to Joey to make a few brief introductory remarks, and then we will open it up to Q&A. Before we get to that, I'd like to remind you that during this presentation we may discuss our outlook and future performance.
These forward-looking statements typically may be preceded by words such as "we expect," "we believe," "we anticipate," or similar statements. These forward-looking views are subject to risks and uncertainties, and our actual results could differ materially from the views expressed today. Some of these risks have been set forth in IAC and Angi’s press releases and our respective filings with the SEC.
We'll also discuss certain non-GAAP measures, which, as a reminder, include adjusted EBITDA, which we'll refer to today as EBITDA for simplicity during the call. I'll also refer you to our press releases, the IAC shareholder letter, and again to the investor relations section of our websites for all comparable GAAP measures and full reconciliations for all material non-GAAP measures. With that, I will turn it over to Joey.
Morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us. I just realized a few moments ago that we were courteous enough to have Chris introduce himself.
For the first time as a participant on the IAC earnings call. I think we could have staged that better, I realize. I am nonetheless incredibly thrilled, and relieved to have Chris here in the role of CFO. Chris has been here, I think, I don't know, a few weeks so far, and already digging in in really incredible ways, challenging assumptions, doing all the things that we would have hoped, of a CFO.
I think he's going to be a tremendous, excellent addition to the team, and we're thrilled to have him here for the first time. Hopefully you guys will take it easy on him because he is still only a few weeks in, but he's been doing a lot of studying and learning, so seems like a quick study.
Also, of course, Neil is here, but for the first time in an officially much larger role, and so I'm sure he'll have a lot of questions about that. Oisin, as Chris mentioned, is here, and most of you know Oisin by now. Now he's done several calls, but I'll just mention Oisin again for the opportunity to pronounce his name, and hopefully you'll all get the opportunity to learn it if I keep pronouncing it. Welcome Oisin again. Rhymes with machine.
Very quickly, 2021 was a good year, a year of a lot of change for IAC, for many of our businesses. Thinking about where we started the year with Vimeo versus where we ended the year with Dotdash Meredith, where we started the year as HomeAdvisor, Angie's List, and ended the year as Angie.
2022, we have the pieces in place to start to execute on growth across a number of businesses and we plan to continue to invest throughout the year and really build from here, and I like the tools in our hands for building, and that's what we intend to keep doing. Let's get your questions. Mark. Oh, also by the way, thank you to Mark Schneider, who's not on camera today, but he was nice enough nonetheless to wear a tie here with us in the background, and he'll be orchestrating this as usual.
Thanks, Joey. Our first question will be from John Blackledge at Cowen.
Great. Thanks. Good morning. Maybe one for Neil, one for Joey. Neil, could you discuss the operating plans for Dotdash Meredith this year? Is the 15%-20% year-over-year revenue growth the expectation for 2022 or just more a general expectation after this year? For Joey, could you discuss the strategic rationale for increasing the stake in MGM and what is IAC playing for over the long term with this investment? Thank you.
Okay. I'll go first. I think the 15%-20% is what we're going to ramp to through the year. Let me give you a little background on where we are. We are day 76 of this acquisition, James Harden Day, if you're me and a basketball fan. We made some changes to print last week, and I'll break this down for you guys directly.
Sort of like we'll look at print, we'll look at digital, we'll look at the ad business and look at the commerce business. The print business we've said all along we were buying brands, and I think we fairly well telegraphed what we were going to do. As Joey said quite eloquently in his letter, we're going to invest behind print brands that people are willing to pay for.
I think we're very fortunate that our major brands and most of our brands are brands people are willing to pay for. We are very optimistic about print. We're very optimistic about how it's going to help our branding. We're very optimistic about how it's going to support our digital.
This is obviously a very different perspective than Meredith has had historically. We're talking a lot internally sort of about our big six, the big six in print that are going to be the anchors of what we're doing, which is People, Southern Living, Better Homes & Gardens, Real Simple, Food & Wine, Travel + Leisure. As also Joey said in the letter, it is not,a business plan to make cuts and do nothing different and hope something changes.
What we're really going to be doing is focusing on what we can do to enhance this product, better paper, better art direction, better content, all of these things to do to make a much more premium product that gives these things a real lifespan and really supports digital and is the proper manifestation of these brands in the world.
Look, it's no fun to do what we did last week, but it's also like fairly evident that parents don't really wish to receive parenting advice from a magazine. They want it from the internet. It was really an evolution as much as anything, and I think we're really off to the races.
We have a very strong print team from Meredith running this, and we're pretty optimistic. Digital, which is the real crux of what we're doing, we have made substantial changes in the two-plus months we've been here. First is structuring. We've taken what was essentially a matrix structure, and we have put everything into our structure, where every brand, all of our brands now have clear leadership and dedicated resources, a GM that functions almost as a mini CEO, but owns all pieces of that brand from content to product to tech.
We've arranged everything into groups. Food is with food, and home is with home. When you look at this, again, it's worth reminding everybody, we're the number-one player in food. We're the number-one player in home. We're the number-one player in beauty. We're the number one player in entertainment. We're near the top in health. We're near the top in finance. We have an incredible amount of clay to work with.
Now that we've got the leadership team in place, we can start running our playbook, and we've talked about this a lot. The thing about the playbook that has us most excited is we're at the point now where most of it is pattern recognition. We know we've seen this before. We've talked to you guys. We're like, you know, 12 for 12 or 13 for 13 when we get these incredible brands and we can run a remediation program which is again, make the content as good as you can get it, make the sites as fast and responsive as you can get it, and make the ads respectful.
One thing I would say is I see as the best possible place to do this because the only conversations I have with Joey are Joey telling me to go do this now and telling us to go do this now and get this done without regard to the short term, make all the changes that will get us to the 15-20, get us to the 450 EBITDA next year, and we feel really good about where we are.
Quickly on advertising, we're going to be rolling out a fully restructured ad sales team in the next two weeks, which we're very excited about. Again, that's going to parallel more vertical structure like what we had. We feel really good. We are out right now for the first time doing some combined pitches, sort of the one plus one plus.
One plus one equals three theory, which seems to have legs and seems to be working, which we feel very good about. Unified ad stacks can help us programmatically. Meredith, I think if you look historically digitally, I think we have been much more focused on content and user experience, and Meredith has been much more focused on revenue, so we're learning a lot from them on the ad side of how to optimize, how to maximize what we have, which we're excited about.
The last sort of the, I guess, the fourth leg of the table, I guess, not three legs of a stool, fourth leg of a table would be commerce. There's two really exciting things that have come out of this. We built an incredible commerce business and an incredible testing capability growing as quickly as we were growing. We went from 3 test kitchens to literally 50 test kitchens, and we now have 200,000 sq ft in various places that we can really test products and get into being as good as we are in commerce.
We can be that good in helping people decide what to buy, which is for our intent-driven traffic, sort of the logical next step for what we're doing. We have stood up plans to get our style of commerce, the Consumer Reports style of commerce, up on all of the historical Meredith brands. There's obviously a lot going on. Our team is very busy. Obviously, when you get into these things, not everything is rosy.
Some things are better. Some things are worse. Some things are a lot worse. Some things are a lot better. We're slogging through it. We are deep, deep, deep in it, but we feel really good about where we are.
Building off that, John, relative to your question of Neil's overall message, I think when you think about the year and how it's going to play out, there are a few key buckets, and then we can talk about what that looks like. Print, we announced last week the conversion to 100% digital of some titles. That's an example of just general noise that'll be in the print numbers as we optimize our print portfolio executed, as Neil articulated.
We're going to be moving the Meredith titles onto the Dotdash platform, culling content, reinvesting in content, rebuilding their distribution. That'll have some noise in the revenue numbers as that's executed over the H1 of the year.
The sales consolidation, as Neil said, it is a bright future, the combined sales forces, but you've got to bring them together and get them across the board. Finally, as you look at the financials this year, you're going to have hard to read through. It's going to take some work with the application of purchase accounting and other changes to the financials. It'll be a noisy year with respect to the financials.
On an overall basis, we expect the H1 of the year revenue to be flattish, driven by the transitions we're talking about, sort of going a little bit back before we go forward on the Meredith digital titles, but all of it building with the sales force in optimized shape to a very strong rhythm to lead the year and that 15%-20% year-over-year growth. Then that brings us to the $450 million of 2023 EBITDA. So that's the plan. This year we expect profitability because of those trends to be back-end weighted.
That's due to seasonality in the business. It's due to optimization of the combined digital portfolio in the second half for all the actions that Neil's taking. Thirdly, you'll just see the full run rate of the cost savings hitting at that point.
I think all that is consistent with what we expected going in, which was 2022 would be a bit messy, and 2023 is where we'd have to show the proof of the work done, going into that point. On MGM, John, it is. First and foremost, if we're going to invest capital where it has to be attractive value, and I think that's still the case with MGM.
If you look at MGM as you still look at a sum of the parts, and if you believe that there's any future in Macau, if you believe that the digital business has real value, the joint venture, and if you believe that groups come back to Las Vegas at some point at scale, then it is still, in our opinion, very attractively priced, and we believe all of those things.
That's the first piece. Second piece is the groundwork is still being laid, and real progress is made over the course of the year in delivering an omni-channel experience. One component of that is delivering a consistent brand experience. You saw MGM sold Mirage. It's buying Cosmo, the Cosmopolitan.
You also start to see some of the work that MGM is doing in branding MGM rewards and tying the entire system together. You also see Digital is doing incredibly well, ahead of what we expected going into the original investment. That's all the groundwork for putting a consistent omni-channel branded rewards experience together. We like to see the progress there. When we look at that combination, we say that's a good place to put capital. The other factor and the catalyst for this was just when we first got involved in MGM, we spent a lot of time with Keith Meister and Corvex.
Keith had been a big agent of change at MGM, and I think has become a very welcome agent of change at MGM by management and the rest of the board. One of the components of his business is that capital is more finite. It was a very natural transition when he was looking to sell some stock that stock moved into more long-term hands like ours and MGM repurchasing a portion of those. That all happened very naturally. That was something that Bill Hornbuckle, CEO, and Paul Salem, Chairman, encouraged, and we were excited to do given our view on valuation right now. I don't know where it goes from here on MGM.
It's just sort of the same thing we've said all along, which is, it's a great business. We're excited to be involved in it, and it's kind of one step at a time. We're really happy with our involvement so far. Hard not to be, given the results, and don't know where it goes from here.
Thank you.
Great. Our next question will be from Cory Carpenter at J.P. Morgan.
Thanks. Oisin, hoping you could provide an update on where you're at with the Angi rebrand and the Angi Services business, and then maybe tying it back to the financials. Could you just help frame your expectations around growth and profit, more broadly for Angi in 2022? Thank you.
Sure. Thanks, Corey. Let me start with the January numbers, which is obviously not the start to the year we wanted, but it's the start we got with Omicron. We saw pretty significant uptick in Omicron call-offs, customer call-offs, pro call-offs. We saw an 8x increase in January versus the normalized number for the year. We've since seen that drop off. What that'll mean is in March, we will be lapping the rebrand, so that's a pretty significant event for us. We obviously rebranded the business in March of last year. We will have easier comps after that, particularly in the ads and leads business, so that will be a natural tailwind.
The other significant thing going on this year is we've got this growing services business that we've all talked about and we all know about. It made up 15% of revenue Q4 2020. Got up to 27% of revenue Q4 2021. That business still more than doubling Q4, about doubling in January, and that becomes an ever-increasing part of the business.
You put all those things together, and we're pretty happy with where we're going overall. You know, we embarked on this journey just over a year ago to really change what Angi stands for, to really position it as a consumer brand, and I think we're starting to see that come to life, where, you know, we know what pros want. We know they wanto to grow their business.
We know customers wanto to get the job done, and it's starting to feel more and more like every single day we're starting to deliver on that pretty consistently. We see it in customer sat. We see it in pro satisfaction. I think we've. You know, historically, I think the last thing we said on this was that we'd be in the 15%-20% range. Obviously, we've broken the bottom end of that in Q1, but it is still our goal to get to that range, stay in that range, and ideally break the upper end of that as we think about where things go, where things go for the rest of the year.
Chris, do you wanto to?
Yeah, thank you, Oisin. Cory, and I think financially, you know, we're going to see sort of idiosyncratic volatility in those month-to-months over this quarter. Omicron was mentioned for January. February should be, you know, at the top end-ish of our target range, and then March will be against a sort of record comp last year.
We'll be, you know, below the range. When we look forward, as the momentum builds for all the reasons Oisin articulated of growth in services and easier comps, as we went through the rebranding last year, we would expect to get back into that range and advance through the year.
The other with respect to EBITDA, our expectation is for the year, total adjusted EBITDA, you know, it's similar to last year. One point we'd highlight is the trend by quarter will likely be inverted from last year, where there was the decline in profitability as the rebrand and reinvestment occurred. This year, due to the regular seasonality of the business of Q2 to Q3, which you know, strongest for a lot of this work and also Q4 strength, but also the growth through the year, we expect you know, the early part of the year to be less profitable than the back end of the year. But overall, for the year, we're expecting profitability similar to last year.
Great. Our next question will be from Jason Helfstein at Oppenheimer.
Thanks. Just to follow up on the Angi question first. I mean, if we're thinking about core marketplace, just given the shift in consumer spending to travel and experiences, I mean, do we just consider this a transitory year for the marketplace side of the business? Meaning think of it as like a flat year, and then all of the growth coming from services.
Or, do you think just given all the headwinds that you'll be in a position to kind of recapture marketplace revenue growth at some point later in the year? Second, Joey, you didn't give any update in the letter on Care.com, and it's probably the consolidated asset with the most upside to valuation over the next few years.
Maybe just get an update on Q4 and how you're thinking about full year 2022 for Care.com. Thanks.
Yeah, I'll take the Angie part. I think you gotta remember that the marketplace. I think when you say marketplace, you're talking about the ads and leads part of the business. The ads and leads part of the business is a function of both consumer demand, but also pro capacity.
We've done a lot of work over the last year to change the type of pros that we're going after, to go after higher quality pros that have more capacity and they're willing to spend more. If the consumer demand changes to categories like travel or other entertainment categories, the flip side of that is pros have more capacity and as a result are willing to spend more.
We think about it as the business has some element of a natural edge in it, where services is directly related to consumer demand. The more people wanna buy home services, the more our services business will continue to grow at a very aggressive rate. As consumers or if consumers pull back from buying home services, pros will need to spend more to drive the same revenue.
We expect that if that were to occur, we would see ad pros and lead pros engage more with the platform. We have a measure we track, which is active for match or their, you know, ability to be on and get new leads at any point in time. We would expect that to increase, and we would expect budget to increase if consumer demand for services was to pull back. We haven't yet seen that.
There is some complication in that, obviously, as we have this rebrand that we're still in the midst of lapping. We have seen it just in terms of the rebrand directly. We have seen Angi now back to the traffic level that Angie's List was back at, which is obviously a big milestone for us, and where we still have work to do is to get the combined Angi and HomeAdvisor brands and brand traffic back to where that is before.
Got a lot going on in terms of the creative that we're going out with this year, in terms of rebranding what Angi stands for and positioning it in a different way. We're, you know, obviously only a few weeks into the year so far, so our media spend is kind of middle of the year weighted. As we continue to see that expand, we think that, you know, the combined traffic of Angi and HomeAdvisor, we hope that this year will surpass where it was pre-rebrand.
On Care, Jason, definitely nothing to read into the lack of mention in the letter. The letter was focused this quarter on a longer term opportunity with Bluecrew and Vivian, and we, in the interest of keeping it tight, wanted to focus on a theme and figured we'd get the opportunity to cover other things in this venue or elsewhere. Care is doing great.
The best part of Care right now is the core Care business, which is serving families around childcare, and that's growing in terms of subscribers. It's growing in terms of revenue. We're driving conversion. We have now a alpha version. I still haven't been able to use it, unfortunately. I'd like to, but Tim Allen, the CEO, is only using it.
He's keeping the product to himself right now. But we have an alpha version now, our instant book product, which is you can book a Care provider on 4 hours notice. One of the benefits of that product is that that will flow to a lot of things actually that matter in the care service offering.
One of the key components of that is you go from frequency of needing a nanny, which is 1-2 times a year for a family, to needing a babysitter, which is 5-10 times a year for a family. That starts to impact our subscription products, that starts to impact our user experience and the tools that we can bring into the product. We're excited about that, but that still isn't out live for all of our collective use yet.
That's the core product. Beyond the core product, we now have a daycare product, which we've launched, where we think we have 1,000 customers now engaging with that, customers being daycare centers. We are doing work on the senior care side. We're starting to think about the pet care side.
We are of course the enterprise business is continuing to be an area of investment focus for us, and we think a long-term opportunity. There's a little noise in the enterprise business right now just because the COVID comps are making it complicated. In 2021, we had a massive lift in backup care days, and that is something that's not repeated and so at the same scale. We're just dealing with some components around that. The enterprise business is great. Customers are happy with the enterprise product, and so we're going to grow that business. I'm very optimistic for where we go with care and the potential value creation there.
Like everything, it's still early, and we've got a lot to prove, and we got a lot of opportunity ahead.
Our next question will be from Eric Sheridan at Goldman Sachs.
Thanks for taking the question. Maybe two, if I can, sort of following up on themes we've talked about. Oisin, if I could follow up on Angi. There was a paragraph in Joey's letter about fulfillment, and I wanna make sure we better understand some of the messages about where you're pushing it on the investment side to improve fulfillment on the platform and what those improvements might mean in terms of driving a mixture of growth and margin in the years ahead.
Neil, to follow up on, I think it was the third of the four pillars you laid out for Dotdash Meredith would be on the advertising monetization side. Beyond just purely the Salesforce integration, how should we be thinking about you positioning the asset in the broader advertising community?
We've talked before in public forums about contextual advertising and where the assets sit in the broader funnel and what sort of advertising part of the world you're going after. Can you just go a little deeper there? That'd be super helpful. Thanks so much, guys.
Sure. I can take the Angi part first. Just so that we're all aware of what fulfillment means, when you come to Angi and you buy a service job, typically a low-value service job in the hundreds of dollar range, we work our butt off to go and make sure that that job gets done. We don't necessarily for every single category, every single pro or every single task, have a pro available to do it at exactly the right time.
We do some modelling to make sure that we match consumer demand with pro supply. We don't necessarily always have a pro available. We are working to make sure that when you purchase that service, the rate at which we fulfill it continues to go up month after month after month.
It gets harder as you add more categories, as you cover more geographies, but we're making sure that we go category by category, geo by geo, and it's a function of a number of different things. It's whether we get the pricing right to the consumer, whether we get the pricing right to the pro, whether we accurately ask the customer the right questions, whether we pass that information on to the pro in the right way, and we're continuously improving fulfillment.
If we get that right, there's two things that happen. Firstly, consumer repeat rate goes way up. Obviously, if we do the job successfully with the customer, they're likely to come back. It goes way up. That reduces marketing spend in the future as we increase the customer LTV.
The second thing that happens is we just make more money off the job if we price it right to the consumer and we price it right to the pro. The rate at which we're doing that, the rate at which we're successfully fulfilling on these low-value jobs continues to increase quarter after quarter. We're getting better, and we see that in both the fulfillment rates, we see it in the customer sat and NPS numbers coming out of the Book Now business.
We also see it in the take rate contribution margin or gross margin contribution margin from that business. Overall, in the small low-value tasks, we see fulfillment rate continuing to go up. It's one of the key drivers of us being long-term successful in the services business. The second area of fulfillment rate to think about is in these larger jobs.
These are the $5,000, $10,000, $20,000 jobs. What we see there is we're getting better overall. The metrics we're tracking there are the percentage of jobs that are being done by pros that have already done a job with us. Are we making pros happier? We already know we have great NPS in that category.
The NPS in that particular vertical, that particular segment of the business is a multiple better than if you come through the SR path, the leads business. Overall, what we're starting to get our arms around there is our take rate sufficient? It's gone up for the last 3 or 4 quarters now. It's stabilized at what we think is a healthy rate.
We've got to work on operations costs to support that business so that eventually it'll drop down to contribution margin. Overall fulfillment rate makes the business, the services business way better in every dimension, and it's one of the key metrics that we target at a high level, and obviously the sub-bullets below it as well.
Okay. To read your question back to you around what we're going to go with sales, where the advantages are, content scale. This is my favorite question, and there's two pieces. One, we're integrating the sales team, and one very basic thing is out of the top 20 clients, maybe I think two, or I'll give the number slightly wrong, 2 or 3 overlap. It is a very different base of advertisers. We're very strong, finance and healthcare.
They're very strong CPG. So that is very complementary. The ad stack, we're going to see great yield improvements out of the ad stack by combining and through efficiencies and as we make their sites much more performant, particularly programmatic ads become much more valuable when they're more viewable and all the other metrics we can do.
What we're really doing and what underpins all of this and what gets us the most excited is we can do intent-driven contextual advertising at scale like has never been done before on the internet. What that means is intent-driven contextual advertising beats cookie-based advertising and performance every time.
Add to that, cookies and all these trackers are going away. In the long term, we don't need them. Like, to simplify it, if somebody is searching on how to speed up my router, we know everything about them we need to know. We don't need to know anything about them other than their router's too slow. They either have to fix it or they have to get a new one. Once you know that, you pretty much have all the info you need.
You can see the evidence of our ability to make contextual advertising work in a stat that Joey likes to talk about, and we obviously like to talk about it as well. Each quarter, our top 25 advertisers, 23, 24 renew every quarter. Meredith isn't anywhere near that level. Look, it's very easy to sell someone something once.
It is very hard to sell someone something twice. We're very good at selling someone something twice, and we did it with brands that frankly no one had ever heard of four years ago, some didn't even exist. Now what we have are these Meredith sites that profile-wise look just like ours.
They are all about intent signals in home, in food, even in entertainment to an extent, where we can harness these intent signals, match them up with ours, and we can deliver the intent-based performance at scale. I mean, we're the largest digital publisher in the U.S. and that allows us to do things like we actually have a puncher's chance to compete with platforms like Facebook because there's other stuff going on.
All of our content is ours. All of it is safe. All of it is made by us. There is no news. There's nothing that is going to put you in a bad mood. It is all, for the most part, content that is going to help you. When we drill down a little more on People content, that generally makes you happy.
The combination of these intent signals and contextual targeting with the new scale we have, with the fact that it's an incredibly safe environment, is an offering that hasn't been in the market before. Now, our models don't reflect taking dollars away from Facebook, but I can tell you from talking to advertisers, that's in the conversation.
What we need to do is if we can deliver on this promise and we can bring a level of performance to the Meredith assets, which we're already down the path on, we're already cleaning up their ad stack, we've already taken off some of the most egregious ads, the sky's the limit of what we can do here. To be very specific, the go-to-market strategy is a much more eloquent version of what I just said.
It explains to people why contextual targeting and why intent works. Like, if somebody is reading content on what color do I need to paint my newborn boy's bedroom, we know everything about them. We know that they have a newborn, we know that they're likely in the market for a new credit card, for a new car, often a new house. We know that they're great for a home improvement retailer. We know all these things about them that a cookie couldn't tell you. When you can do that at scale, we're just very, very excited. One of the things that gets us most excited.
Great. Thanks, Neil. Our next question will be from Ross Sandler at Barclays.
Great. Thanks for the presentation, guys. Joey, can you put some numbers around Bluecrew and Vivian? We had well, that was pretty good disclosure on the paragraph, but maybe just help us like pre-pandemic to today understand the scale of those two businesses, and if you had to kind of draw an analogy to other IAC franchises from back in the day, is this like a Tinder 2015 stage of development for those two? Kind of help us understand where they are in terms of their development. Thanks.
Sure. It's a really good question, Ross. First, just some stats. Pre-pandemic to today, I don't know, each business would be 3, 4, or 5 times the size. This is my guess. Somebody can correct me if I'm far off on that, but we're in that neighborhood. It's hard to make an analogy to something like Tinder and well, while I'd love to do that, it is. Tinder was a very naturally viral business.
These and sort of once Tinder entered the global consciousness, it just sort of spread naturally. These businesses are not that kind of business. They're fantastic businesses, I think they're both marketplace businesses, and I think that scale creates the moat in both of those businesses.
They have some natural viral tendencies in their categories, but it's not that kind of thing, which is once it catches fire, it just goes. Both of these businesses require a lot of the way to think about scale, you know. Combined, one of them ought to be a nine-figure business this year. The other one ought to be comfortably or is an eight-figure business, will be a bigger eight-figure business this year.
The key of both of them in their category is building liquidity. So in the case of Vivian, the key is having more health professionals on the platform. They've done this phenomenally well in nurses and really specifically in travel nurses, such that most travel nurses have a profile.
Once you build the profile on the, we'll call that the demand side of, I guess, workers looking for work, once you have that profile built, then you are in the system and you are getting information regularly.
You can engage with jobs regularly, and jobs can engage with you regularly on a much more pointed basis because relevance matters. We know what the certifications are, we know what geographies you're looking for, we know what specific qualifications you're looking for. With that solid base of people who can work, we're now in the process of building up the employers on the other side.
I think that in every marketplace, one side or the other is moving faster than the other. The key for us now in the case of Vivian is building up the supply of employers. Blue Crew is on probably a little bit more of the opposite. That may be a result of overall macro dynamics. We have lots of employers on the platform.
We continue to, of course, grow employers on the platform. Right now, the key is bringing workers onto the platform and driving fill rates. Once you have liquidity in both of these markets, it changes the dynamics, and we can see it in micro categories or in micro geographies. That when you have enough jobs and when you have enough workers, that a lot more starts to go through the platform, and that people can find their second job on the platform, and people can do that sort of repeat business. Once you have that going, that is transformational.
When we look at other businesses in the IAC portfolio or in IAC's history, that's an analogy that does work, which is looking at small geographies, building liquidity, seeing what happens when you build liquidity, and seeing that proverbial flywheel start to work when both sides are built up enough that the offering becomes much more compelling both for the employer and for the employee.
I think that these are not necessarily winner-take-all type markets, but I think they are. There's significant advantage to the early movers, and I think that there will be probably a few key players in each, and I think that they can get to enormous scale. Again, the other thing we talked about is just the size of these markets. These labor markets are absolutely enormous and absolutely underserved right now.
If we're doing it right, we ought to be able to grow forever in here.
Thanks, Joey. Our next question will be from Youssef Squali at Truist.
Great. Thank you, guys. Thank you for taking the questions. So I have two. First, maybe for Chris. On Dotdash Meredith, if you could double-click on that $450 million in EBITDA that you're targeting for 2023. Just kind of the linearity to get there, and probably more and even more importantly, you know, Dotdash has historically been a really profitable business. So how do you kinda look at long-term kind of sustainable margins for that business relative to that 15%-20% growth that you discussed?
Just quickly for Joey, I believe you guys have an option to increase your ownership of Turo, if I remember correctly. What's the maximum you guys can own of it? And just what's your long-term objective with that investment? Thanks.
Sure. I'll start with Turo just 'cause I'll go first. We own about 25-ish% of the business, I think, right now, and the warrant is to own another 10% of the business, so 35-ish%. I think give or take 5% on those figures, but that's the ballpark. We love the business and love being owners of the business, and generally, our philosophy on everything is we are long-term, and this is no different.
The goal is, as always, to find businesses that we think have incredible long-term potential and stick with those businesses. I would love to talk more about Turo, but I guess we are restricted on that one right now, given they have a filing out there.
I can't say anything good about the business or and don't probably wanna say anything bad about the business. It is we're happy with where we are right now.
Thank you. For Dotdash Meredith, you know, when you think about the 2023 EBITDA targets and levels that we're going to get to, the key elements there are the scale that comes in incremental profitability from the digital business.
As Neil and team have that growing in the bands that we're targeting, you've got the sales force, you've got fixed cost infrastructure, but you will have margin scale, a nd then also, that's a digital EBITDA number. The print business is one that we will continue to optimize and manage. It is one that we will continue to manage with an eye towards keeping it profitable and also a good user experience.
As we look into next year and where we see the cost savings coming, as we integrate the businesses, as we see this digital revenue momentum on an efficient cost base, those are the drivers as we grow to that $450 million of 2023 digital EBITDA.
Thanks, Chris. Our next question will be from Brent Thill at Jefferies.
Good morning, Joey. Search had great growth and great profitability. Many are asking about the sustainability of that business. Maybe for Chris, welcome, maybe just talk through your top priorities and kind of where you see with your new lens, the biggest opportunity from your side.
Sure. On Search, it is. Remember there's some short-term things going on in Search, which is the desktop business which we're essentially exiting, not by our choice, but by the evolution of the ecosystem. That led to some profitability because we had revenue coming in on that business, but we're no longer marketing it, that short-term significant profitability, sort of unusually high margins as we think of that as runoff.
The flip side is that there's another part of that business, which is the ask marketing part of that business where we're driving people to our properties through marketing and monetizing them with ads. That piece of the business is doing well, and I think we expect to make up for what we lose in the desktop business over time.
Overall we think that business stable-ish right now. I wouldn't read too much into the sort of short-term, the benefits you've seen there where it is a little bit, it's a little bit. That's temporary that the magnitude of how we're exiting the other business and benefiting from the runoff.
Thank you. You know, I think my priorities would be first of all continuing to get up to speed on the core businesses in the portfolio, and then looking at ways to drive value there. There, there's two main, you know, viewpoints that we're looking across that. One is any dollar being invested on an operating basis is generating maximum ROI. Being disciplined and focused in our strategic initiatives at each of the companies, and also in how we're measuring ROI and continuing to push that forward. The good news being at IAC is that it is forever capital as Joey says, and we are committed to long-term value creation.
That's a long horizon, but we need to be thoughtful, working with Oisin, working with Neil and team on the integration and driving those properties forward, and then on the medium and smaller companies. The other big bucket would be capital allocation. We have a variety of interesting opportunities at any given time, both further investments in portfolio companies as well as entering new sectors.
There's obviously been movements in the public valuations and by extension in the private markets. Constantly looking at our cash, our capital structure and the set of opportunities in front of us to drive the greatest long-term value. It's been a great start, but I've got a lot more work to do.
Thanks, Chris. Our next question will be from Brian Fitzgerald at Wells Fargo.
Thanks, guys. We want to ask a couple questions around Angi's deal with Walmart. Anything you could tell us about the customer acquisition cost profile there versus variable channels? How are you thinking about the value of being in 4,000 stores and the halo effect for the brand and for customer acquisitions more generally?
Then last one, in the announcement you talked about this being the first retail integration with Angi. What's the opportunity to go back to some of your other retail partners on the Handy side and convert them to Angi-branded relationships with the expanded service offerings that you're going to roll out at Walmart?
Great question. Thanks for asking. Just for everyone's benefit, the way this works is you can go to walmart.com, or you can go to a Walmart store, the 4,000 stores, and if you're buying a TV, you can at the point of sale buy a TV mounting service for about I think it's $80 or $79. Similarly on a number of other categories, including flooring and painting, when you're buying product, you can actually buy service.
You can buy service at the point of sale. In order to schedule that service, you then take your code that's printed on the receipt, you go to angi.com/walmart, and you type in the code, and you schedule directly. Or sorry, you go to angi.com/walmart, you type in the code, and you schedule directly with Angi.
As you pointed out, this is an extension or I guess a rebrand of some of the prior relationships that Handy had. We are expanding both the number of retailers that Angi will be in. Walmart is the first. We expect to roll out into other retailers. For context, the other retailers that Handy is currently in include Target, Lowe's, Wayfair, and others.
We would expect over time that those would be rebranded to Angi, and you're also correct that we would expand past the small set of services that were available before, and if retailers are open to it, we would sell some of the broader services we have. We have about 200+ services available through Book Now right now. There's no reason we wouldn't expand past, you know, the traditional services that we had available.
In terms of the opportunity, look, we fundamentally believe that having a single brand is the right thing to do here. A single primary brand is the reason why, you know, we've focused on Angi. You know, if you look at any of the materials that we've got out there, Angi feels different now than Angie's List did a year and a change ago.
It feels different than HomeAdvisor did a year and a change ago. You know, we've got our board meeting later today, and even if you just split the board deck, it feels different. You look at any of our social channels, you look at the creative on TV, it feels different. Having that new brand in 4,000 stores, we think will make a difference.
We notice that when those customers do buy, you know, through a retailer and they come in and engage directly with Angi, we just see follow-along purchases. We know that, you know, we can get a percentage of them to download the mobile app. We do think of it as an important channel for us.
We think it's, you know, an interesting way for us to gain exposure to more customers, and we know that it's great for the retailer. The other side of all this is why does the retailer do it? What we see from talking to retailers is it drives up their order value, it gives them increased conversion, it increases customer satisfaction, and it reduces returns.
From the retailer's perspective, you know, we see some of the retailers, in fact, selling the services at or below cost because they get so much sundry benefit from attaching service to product. Overall, we think it's a win-win. It, you know, plays into the trend that retailers are moving towards, which is less selling product, but instead selling a full solution into the customer's home.
You know, they've got to sell past the return window and actually sell into the person's life. And we think this is a great partnership for us and for each of the retailers, and we're excited to have more and more of our customer touch points eventually branded to a branded Angi. Overall, we think we're really excited about it.
If you think about it from a customer perspective, they're going to start their job generally one of two ways. They're going to say, "I need a new floor. How do I get flooring installed?" Hopefully we find them there. Or they're going to say, "I need a new floor. What do new floors look like?" Or, "Where can I get a new floor?"
Then we wanna find them there too. I think that second one is a really interesting channel for us, and that's why that was one of the original drivers for us getting into the Handy acquisition, was that channel is going to be an important channel. We think that there's a lot of room in that channel for us.
Yeah. I think that's a really good point, Joey. It's like the difference between service-started search or product-started search. We've obviously got a great way to think about service-initiated search, whether you know it's coming to the Angi site or coming to the Angi mobile app, we have a great funnel that captures intent that is driven by people thinking service first. We don't have a great way to think about product search directly on Angi, and this is a way for us to engage with consumers that are thinking product first. It's you know an important way for us to think about the world.
Our next question will come from Dan Salmon at BMO.
Great. Good morning, everyone. I got one for Neil, one for Oisin. Neil, we continue to hear a lot more about the impact of privacy changes this earnings season, Google just announced their plans for Android. You know, we know your intent-based model is more insulated from these types of changes. Does news like this, you know, help drive incoming calls to your sales team? How are they engaging advertisers about these issues and helping them address them? Oisin, could you just give us an update on the uptake of Angi Key and your financing partnership with Affirm? Thanks.
I'll go first. I'll be quick. In terms of the privacy stuff, we're not really an app-based business, so we've been immune to some of this stuff. You know, call it privacy writ large is going to be a long-term benefit for us. Now, when something happens, we don't get a phone call right away. The more we can tell our story and the more we're out there with this message, the more appeal it is.
There's been, as you know, we've talked about this before, there's an entire ecosystem in advertising built around cookies and things like cookies. That doesn't really work anymore. It's increasingly not working. The less it works and the more we can be very good at telling our story and getting into places, the better we're going to be.
Again, to go back to that set, you see a lot in the Dotdash renewals. I mean, we have built our own systems to target contextually across all of our sites. We're obviously rolling that out to the acquired Meredith sites. It is a really, really big opportunity for us. If privacy tracking exits the internet entirely, that is a long-term, very positive thing for us.
On Angi Key, which is our pay-to-save membership program, we're currently tracking over 200,000 members. The growth continues to be strong, but it's a small program to date. We know that we've got to go past pay-to-save. We know that that's not the only value prop we wanna offer for membership. We want Angi Key membership to be, you know, the way you think about taking care of your home.
We've been testing a number of other pillars. You know, we wanna, like I said, build past pay-to-save. One of the pillars we're testing right now is a more personalized way of booking services that seems to be, you know, it's exposed to a few thousand people. The engagement on it seems to be strong.
We have a couple of other thoughts that we're testing right now as well. As we build out those other pillars, we've got a huge opportunity to expand where we're showing membership. Right now, we're only showing it to people buying services. The uptake on that is strong, but we're not pushing it top of funnel.
You know, it's nowhere in our marketing. It's nowhere other than in that purchase flow. Overall, the retention rate is good on it. We feel good about where it's going, but it's still very early, and we think we've got to build out some of the other pillars of membership around personalization and convenience so that we can more broadly expose it. All the data tells us that we're going in the right direction with Angi Key.
You know, it's something that's important to us, and we think that, you know, 2022 will be a good year for Angi Key in terms of figuring out what the next pillars of it are. On financing and financing goes alongside payment, so I'll talk about the two of them together.
As we said in the letter or the release, we did $100 million of payment processing last year. In terms of financing, we have multiple partners who reference the firm. I think altogether in financing, we did around $10 million of financing last quarter. We think that, you know, we've got to become excellent at this, and we're not making, you know, any significant money from payments or financing. They're, you know, costing us money right now.
We sure could turn on a charge for them and take a small payment, but that's not the goal. The goal is to help the pro grow their business and help the customer get the job done, and we think payments and financing fits really well into that. We noticed that when pros use the payment feature, they're happier, they retain better.
When customers use financing, generally they're happier, and, you know, they're more engaged with the product overall. It helps us get data on closing the loop. We're going to continue to invest in it, continue to scale it, and over time, we'll look at how we monetize it. I think it's, you know, it's tracking, it's going in the right direction, and we feel good about it.
Thank you for the questions, everyone. Looking at the clock, Mark, why don't we do one more?
Great. Our last question will be from Justin Patterson at KeyBank.
Great. Thanks. Joey, congratulations on becoming a prolific podcaster. I'm waiting for Spotify to offer you an exclusive one of these days. Just two simple ones for me.
overviews.
There you go. Two simple ones from me. For Oisin, how are you thinking about setting the right controls to attract the right type of pros while also expanding contribution margin? It seems like a difficult problem to solve just given variability in region, pro experience, and job type. For Neil, just revisiting Eric's question around contextual. A lot of advertisers are investing a lot in AI there. How do we think about just the capabilities of the ad tech stack today and competition for engineers?
In terms of pro onboarding, we have a pretty rigorous pro onboarding program across the different programs. Ads, Angi Ads, Angi Leads, and Angi Services all have different criteria for joining. We are looking at how to homogenize and standardize that onboarding experience. One of the things that, you know, we are pushing on is more online enroll across the board.
Almost all Angi Services pros, particularly on the lower value, engage in an online enroll program where they do a background check, a screen, a quality screen in the flow. We've recently started to look at how to do that at Angi Leads. We've got some early traction on that, and we'll eventually get to Angi Ads as well. Overall, we look at both the initial screening of pros as they onboard the platform.
The more we close the loop, so whether it's through payments, financing, or Angi Services, the more we close the loop, the more data we get in terms of customer feedback. You know, we can proactively monitor and manage a pro's behavior more directly in Angi Services. We can geolocate the pro. We can know whether they're going to show up on time.
We know the quality indicators in advance. Of course, we close the loop and collect feedback from the customer. It is a relatively tight loop that, you know, starts with the onboarding experience. The more you digitize that, the more data you get up front, and then closing the loop on customer rating, customer feedback, customer reviews.
Again, you know, you think about what causes good behavior. It's the feedback loop of knowing that there is a consequence, a consequence of, you know, performing well, performing poorly, and we think that at Angi, we've got a pretty natural inherent benefit because there is so much volume going through the platform that we can close the loop more frequently and incentivize pros to do the right thing. We see that in the data.
I'll answer your questions backwards. Ad stack, we have a different view on the ad stack than a lot of companies do. We always want the simplest, fastest, cleanest ad stack possible because the ad stack doesn't solve your problems. It's having a great product that solves your problems. It's having ads that are performant and well-placed in places where the audience is contextually relevant to the ad.
Those will perform. If you took every single ad tech product in the world, they all tell you they give you 10% or 20% lift, and you put them all together, you're not going to get like a 5X. It doesn't work that way. Our ad stack, which we're now putting the two together, and there's obviously some complexity to that, but it's fairly straightforward.
Our ad stack will be good because our product is good, and we keep it fast and simple. In terms of, there's 1 million different ways and buzzwords people are saying to mimic contextual targeting or to align with contextual targeting. You know, judging by like whatever definition AI would be like, we use it too. It just means that things learn as they go, and we do a lot of learning as we go.
The most interesting thing for us now is, you know, we're doing whatever 30 million user sessions a day. There is so much data we can glean as to what's working and who's performing, and we know the path of every single user. We don't know who they are, it doesn't matter, but we know what path they take, and that's really valuable.
I would say the governor on that is your other question, which is engineers. We're no different than anybody else. Engineers are very hard to get. Engineers are very hard to keep. Engineers have their very distinct views on whether or not they should be coming back to the office. There's all kinds of things, and we're very fortunate that we have a terrific CTO who's been with us from the jump since we started this whole thing 7, 8, 9 years ago. Yeah, we have the same engineering challenge as everybody does.
All right. Well, thank you all for joining us this week, this quarter rather. Lots to do this year. We're excited for 2022, and we will see you all in a quarter.