All right. 9:15 A.M. Let's get started. So, welcome everyone, day three of the Morgan Stanley TMT Conference. My name is Erik Woodring. I lead Morgan Stanley's hardware research based out in New York. Before I introduce our speaker, for important disclosures, please see the Morgan Stanley Research Disclosure website at www.morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures. If you have any questions, please reach out to your Morgan Stanley sales representative. So, I'm delighted to be joined by Mike Zilis, CFO of Ingram Micro. First time at the conference. Obviously, a good reason why you guys went public at the end of last year. So, delighted to have you. Hopefully, you become a mainstay at this conference.
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining us.
Yeah. No, happy to be here. Happy to be back at these events.
So, I think maybe to start, just most helpful given the recent IPO, just a lot of people know the company, have the background of the company. You've been around for a long time. But just maybe what's changed? What's the message that you kind of want to send in terms of background, customers you serve, regions you operate? Because some things have changed, so.
Sure. Yeah. No, I can hit on that for a minute here, so most importantly, we're a $48 billion company that sits at the heart of a $4 trillion and relatively fast-growing technology industry, so exciting space to be, but we like to say, "You've never had a day without Ingram Micro," so why do we say that? Over our 45-year history, we've built a presence that can now serve 90% of the world's global population. Our geographic segmentation is four regional segments: North America, EMEA, APAC, and LATAM, but most importantly, the breadth that we've grown there over time is different than what you see out of most global players. We have now more than a third of our business centered in the Asia-Pacific region and in the LATAM regions combined.
That's probably triple or more of the presence that most of the other players have from a share perspective, and that's important because those are fast-growing opportunistic markets where we are seeing more growth. Our business grew more than 7% on a constant currency basis in both of those regions in 2024, or to close out 2024, so it's exciting times where I think we've evolved quite a bit. I think the single biggest evolution since when we were last public, and you all would have been seeing us a lot more back in 2016, is we've grown Advanced Solutions and Cloud quite a bit since that time. We invested over more than a decade into cloud capabilities in our marketplace, $600 million of organic and inorganic investment to make that what it is today.
Now we're really excited over the last two years where we're transforming more to a platform-oriented business with our Xvantage platform and making a much more seamless AI-enabled environment for our customers, our vendors, and even our associates, our employees to really benefit from, to become significantly more efficient than we were just years ago. It's exciting times. We've evolved quite a bit.
Good. And the other thing, obviously, you reported earnings last night. Just maybe walk through the highlights of the quarter, walk through the highlights of the year, and really how that kind of sets you up for momentum this year.
Yeah, so it's been a volatile time in tech, honestly, and I think the storyline for much of 2024 was a slower-than-expected PC and desktop refresh, and then we were seeing another big area that we play in is networking, and we were seeing softness there. Both of those are true. The softness in networking was a little bit cyclical, but also the fact that that was a part of that was a subcategory that had significant supply constraints where product just simply wasn't available in 2022. Everything came back online in 2023, and we rode that wave. We saw our Advanced Solutions grow high single digits. Networking was growing double digits in 2024, 2023. All that supply was met by the end of 2023.
2024 had a very challenging compare, and it developed a little bit of a cyclicality that normally doesn't really exist the way you do, for instance, in PC refresh where you see more of the waves. What we're excited about is how the year closed. Because we did close with north of 3% growth in Q4. We saw very solid growth in PC and desktop. We saw strength in server and storage, cloud, Infrastructure as a Service, all growing very nicely. We saw networking as the year progressed become a little bit better, but to be fair, it was still down double digits for the year and was still down double digits in Q4.
We're more optimistic as we now look forward to Q1 and our guidance that we are more in a normal growth environment now where we expect to see some of that sustained growth as we see that mix, but really, networking rebounding will be a very key thing.
Yeah. And we'll get into kind of the end markets and products and customers and regions, but maybe just last kind of high-level question, just touching on your 1Q guidance because you got it to, as you mentioned, kind of low single-digit revenue growth at the midpoint. You are talking about gross profit and EPS declines. And so, we'll get into some of those factors, but just high-level kind of factors supporting the top line versus some of the one-off, let's call it, or kind of isolated issues impacting the profitability side of the business.
Yeah. So, it's perfect. Yeah. From the guide perspective, we're still guiding towards growth at our midpoint of low- to mid-single digits, which is what we expect from a range perspective on our guide. And we feel confident in that, the way we see the market today. But it is centered into certain areas. It's centered into continued growth in client and endpoint. It's centered from a customer perspective into larger enterprise and corporate customers. And it's still higher growth in our Asia-Pacific region. And the reason I point that out is it is causing a bit of a dilution from a gross margin perspective. Client and endpoint, when you think about PC notebook, but we're also seeing quite robust sales of mobility devices. Those are lower margin. They're also very low cost to serve, and the product turns very fast.
It's nicely profitable, but it is a lower margin business. Corporate and large customers likewise tend to be lower margin than, for instance, small and medium-sized business or SMB. Corporate, we aren't providing as much value add. That tends to be a little bit more fulfillment-oriented business. Now, that we're selling the whole suite of our products into large customers. This is true globally where we're selling advanced solutions as well as client and endpoint and cloud, but it is done without the value add that the SMB market usually has. We're still just seeing a more muted SMB environment as we go into the new year. Lastly, geographically, Asia-Pacific growth, which has been double digits for many of our quarters this year. It closed the year at higher single-digit growth, north of 7%, as I said earlier.
It's an exciting market where we're seeing really good growth prospects continuing, but that too tends to be a lower margin but lower cost to serve region. So, all of those things sort of play into the guide where we're seeing a solid top line, but a little bit more muted margins. And that's not viewed as something that we see as permanent in nature. We're bullish about SMB starting to rebound as the year progresses. We're bullish about, as I said a few minutes ago, networking starting to rebound. And in the meantime, we're excited about how we close the year anyway and the momentum we're seeing from a medium to longer-term basis and still driving a very solid cash flow, continuing to repay down debt. And some of those factors are nice positive stories as we look at the year.
So, you kind of went through a lot of the SMB enterprise public and then kind of geographic stuff. And so, maybe you want to turn to the world is awash in uncertainty. It seems like every time we have our conference, there's something that comes up. Last year was SVB, this year call it tariffs. But what are you hearing from your customers? Obviously, SMBs are probably more impacted by this type of volatility and uncertainty around, let's call it broad and macro and economic indicators. But what are you hearing from those customers in real time about how they're responding to this news? I realize we're talking about days, but just anything that you're hearing that you could help us with.
Yeah. Hopefully, the barrage of tariff news hasn't been too disruptive to this conference, but it's kind of interesting.
Kind of interesting.
Yeah. But as we were just saying earlier this morning in a meeting, I think we've been living with a tariff environment since 2016. This isn't new. It's more volatile right now. I don't know how that will sustain, and I hope it doesn't. I hope we start to see a little more normalization there. So, everybody's sort of weathering the news on the fly here. But I think the most important thing to think about tariffs is it's a pass-through for us. So, we're not bearing that cost. But it does create demand flux to some degree. Now, what I like to also point out is that with more than 1,500 different vendors that we do business with, OEMs, if OEM A is bearing more tariffs and that then creates a demand situation for them, by and large, we're carrying OEM B and C in that market.
And so, we have alternatives that might be more competitive until tariffs sort of normalize a little bit. So, we've weathered this storm. It's nothing that's too disconcerting. For those who listened to our earnings call yesterday, our CEO, Paul Bay, mentioned we have our Trust X Alliance, which is an alliance of our largest customers globally. And they were together this week as well. And hearing from them, we're hearing generally bullishness. And those are customers that are serving large corporate, but also customers that are serving SMB, where we are seeing more bullishness than ever. And I think everybody's saying the same things. Look, we've lived in a tariff environment. It's not new. And yes, it creates volatility and noise.
The only thing I am concerned about on a longer-term basis is that if tariffs become overbaked between the US actions and retaliatory actions from other countries, is whether that just serves to slow the inflation decline and interest rate reductions. Because certainly, to your point of your question, SMB, probably even more so than corporate, has to be selective in this environment about where they're investing. And so, I do hope cooler minds prevail and we see some of this normalize because I think that is going to yet again be a catalyst for an inflationary environment to decline and we start to see more of that spend open up. But we're seeing it. We're seeing pipelines and deals move. And again, that leaves us bullish as well on how we see the next handful of quarters here as the world evolves a little bit.
Okay. Super helpful. You touched on this a bit, but I'd love to kind of go by product because what I hear from you is kind of optimism on PC, server, storage. NetCom has been tough, but it's coming back. Kind of cloud remains steady, Eddie. Mobility is good, but it's maybe concentrated in Asia. Just kind of maybe answering the question for you, but is that how we should be thinking about kind of the different product end markets? Or maybe as we think about 2025, what might be kind of strongest to weakest, so to speak?
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we closed the year 2024 with strengths, probably most prominently exiting the year in PC and desktop and mobility devices, as you just referenced. And then in our Advanced Solutions category, servers and storage, we're quite strong, growing double digits to close the year. And then cloud has continued to grow, if not high single digits, double digits much of the year as we see especially Infrastructure as a Service really take hold, which is where we've centered a lot of our investment to really capture the robust growth in that area. So, those are the areas that honestly, as I sit here in early March looking at Q1 and the first half of the year, a lot of those trends are still continuing. The networking thing, as I referred to earlier, was down double digits in 2024.
I don't want to put a stake in the sand that we're seeing necessarily growth in Q1 versus flat, more flat, but I think it's in that ballpark where we're starting to see that turn. That's a meaningful impact for us over the longer term as we see that return to growth. There's a handful of other specialty categories that have been a little bit softer. By and large, I feel more optimistic now than I have over the last couple of years where I think we're seeing more of a tailwind environment than a headwind environment as we've been weathering. Geographically, I would just add to this. I think growth in the more emerging markets is going to likely be more robust, but we're really excited that we exited 2024 with growth in North America.
North America was out ahead on some of the softness that existed through these last two years, and we're now seeing that rebound, and we're expecting growth on a continued basis in our North America business and also seeing that bullishness around SMB rebounding. So, that's really encouraging, and so it's really Europe, which I don't think this is particularly different from anybody else. We're seeing a softer environment, especially in the Western European markets right now. Eastern Europe, Middle East, pretty solid, and then last but not least, embedded in our guide is more of a unique challenge in our India business that you might have heard on our call yesterday, and really, we had a fraud and collusion issue that existed in our business last year that's behind us. We resolved it.
We had some final charges related to that in Q4, but that business was stopped back in Q2 of 2024. So, not an issue there, but it did cause us to be a little bit more inwardly focused in that market as we investigated into the issue. But on top of that, I think we're seeing an ultra-aggressive environment in India. In fact, actually, I would call, I think I used the word yesterday in our call, irrational in some cases where we're seeing literally negative margin deals happening in that market. And that doesn't make any business sense for anybody. So, I also don't think it's sustainable. And therefore, we don't view this as a long-term factor. Some of it's cyclical, the way the business works in India.
But when I think about our EPS guide for Q1, it's about a high single-digit cents impact from India alone because this is now large. It's 10% of our revenues in our India business. So, it is impactful, but that's a fantastic business that we've been invested in for two decades. What we're seeing is a lot of others entering the market now and being ultra-aggressive to try and get their foothold, and we need to weather that storm. But we don't see that as long-term. So, high single-digit cents impact there. Another couple of cents from Europe just being a little bit softer than we expected. But even in Europe, we're seeing more general bullishness as the year goes on that we see some opportunity for growth coming out in a lot of those markets.
In one key, that makes the difference between EPS declines and EPS growth.
Exactly. Exactly. It does.
And just maybe pulling forward the India question because transparent about the size of India and kind of what's happening. Is this a cyclical dynamic or a secular dynamic? Meaning there's just less dollars to go around and more mouths to feed, so to speak? If that market grows more robustly, does that kind of concern about competition go away, or are there just more new entrants that are going to be a nuisance for a while?
I think it's a little bit unique to our space. India is still a very big growth environment. We're growing still there and grew in Q4 as well. I think there's been a little bit of a downtick in the growth expectations from the GDP or IDC perspective in that market, but it's still better than most markets in the world, so we're invested in that market. We're encouraged about how we continue to grow there in the right way, and I think the cyclicality is more driven even there by large customers where the bidding on large contracts has a cyclical nature itself with sort of ebbs and flows as far as the margin environment. It's just that if that margin range on those ebbs and flows usually is pretty narrow, we're seeing a much more wide range right now that, again, I don't think is sustainable over time.
So, we're still very encouraged on the India market. We just need to see our way through this for a quarter or two.
Okay. I want to go back to the product side because we've talked about PCs, Advanced Solutions, mobility. We haven't talked as much about cloud. And people will say it's only 1% of revenue. Yeah, but it's 10% plus of gross profit dollars. So, it matters.
Yep. Actually, 12% in 2024. Yeah.
For those newer to the story and just like, what exactly is this business for you? I'm not sure a lot of people necessarily understand what you're doing or how robust your cloud business really is, so just help us get a little bit more granularity into it.
Yeah. So, just a little bit of color. Yes. It's about 1% of our revenues is cloud. But from an accounting convention, a lot of the transactions in cloud are accounted for on a net basis. So, that's why the gross margin on a net revenue basis is actually high double digits. And that's why it represents a 12% share of our gross profit in 2012. So, this is a meaningfully scaled business that is basically attacking anything as a service. And more and more is moving to subscription-based, moving to OpEx versus CapEx kind of models. We have been capturing that wave with more than a decade of investment. That's the $600 million. I think I referenced earlier that we started undertaking back around 2010 to really invest in that space and build out inorganically and organically a cloud marketplace that can serve everything as a service.
Where we're seeing the most robust growth now is more on infrastructure as more infrastructure moves to hybrid and cloud-based. And again, we're partnering with the largest vendors in that space and very ready to ride that wave as well. So, it's all about positioning and sort of investing ahead of the curve. And then I guess the peripheral impact of that, which we're particularly excited about, is cloud had that precursor. That has become the backbone now for what has transitioned in the last two years or so to our Xvantage platform. That's the AI-enabled kind of end-to-end platform that we are now using across our business as a whole. And we've actually united that cloud marketplace with Xvantage. So, it's a seamless one-stop shop for a customer in any market where that's fully deployed.
We have Xvantage now deployed in 16 of our largest countries in the world where you have that single pane of glass where I can order Infrastructure as a Service. I can order some subscriptions for Windows. I can order a cybersecurity license. I can order server storage, networking, and even PCs, notebooks, print supplies, whatever. All is a seamless shop that, as I said earlier, is really kind of bringing more of a B2C experience to a B2B environment, which is not an easy code to crack, honestly.
I'm going to get to Xvantage and kind of the competitive differentiation that that provides you. The last question I wanted to get on kind of like the demand side of the world is obviously AI, a big topic here and something that we think about as hardware analysts is when you're making decisions in your data center, how does AI play into that? Is that a separate decision, or does that kind of drive what you're seeing in server storage and networking? And so, just from your perspective, does it seem like these decisions are separate? I know you might not necessarily have full vision into that, but anything that you can share in terms of the disintermediation between the two or if they're kind of linked together and how that could drive the cycle?
I think they're becoming increasingly linked. AI-enabled is an important word in our space right now. Whether you're talking about a PC, you're talking about server storage, networking, and then the capability to just handle data. All of those things, AI-enabled is becoming really important and a bigger opportunity over time. The AI element is probably a little bit more pronounced at the large enterprise level where more of that investment is happening. But I think use cases are becoming more prominent. We're seeing interesting stories like DeepSeek and other things that might be lower-cost opportunities to manage AI and data, and we'll need to see how that evolves. But we at Ingram are set up across the suite of products that serve that and investing ourselves into AI capabilities to be able to manage that as use cases become more prominent.
You can especially use cases that can better serve the SMB market. Those are a little bit more few and far between. It's really interesting, something we're very excited about on the medium and long term, but it's not a major driver of our business right now. I think that point of are those decisions separate or not, I think they're becoming more intertwined.
Okay. Let's pivot to another important topic, and we're going to get to Xvantage with this, but margins. You kind of talked about the near-term gross margin drivers, Asia Pac, PCs, cautiously optimistic about NetCom. Let's move beyond kind of near-term and think about the longer-term model for you guys because I think the message is we believe that our higher-margin businesses can grow faster than our lower-margin businesses per se, or at least that's the goal. And so, as we think, and not asking for guidance, but as we think longer term, is that ultimately should be a tailwind to gross margins? Is maybe the question I'm getting at?
It would be over time. I think to give you a bit of a frame of reference for those who don't know us as well, our Client and Endpoint, which is PCs, notebooks, mobility, print, supplies, that tends to have margins that are low- to mid-single digits. But again, low cost to serve and product moves very fast. Advanced Solutions, which is more of the enterprise-grade hardware and software, so servers, storage, networking, cybersecurity, those sorts of areas, as well as some specialty lines like unified communications, data capture point of sale, areas like that, that tends to be more project-based. And so, when we sell a solution there, on average, our data shows that on average, there's six or more different products or services that make up an end solution. That's where the value prop exists.
We're just on a standalone basis, you just sell that product on a fulfillment basis, it's going to be more in the mid- to upper-single digits, but it can go well into the double digits as we bundle our own service offerings around that. And then cloud really interplays that, honestly. You have very basic cloud sales that might be a Windows license or something like that. But as you get into Infrastructure as a Service or other as-a-service offerings, those are just embedded in that same solution. And then we build out the skill sets to help supplement, augment, and complement what our customers, our resellers provide to the end users, which is putting us up in that value prop scale. So, the reason I point all of that out is right now in the near term, we're seeing more momentum in Client and Endpoint.
That has that dilutive margin impact, like I said. But we see that longer-term tailwind, as you just described it. I would echo what you said that we see that opportunity. We are investing as a company to grow Advanced Solutions and cloud as a whole faster than market. Client and Endpoint, we are going to grow more with market because we're going to be opportunistic where we can capture share and be profitable. And there may be other areas where we're going to walk away because it just doesn't make sense, similar to what we're seeing in our India market, like I said earlier. So, we're going to balance that. But as Advanced Solutions and cloud grow faster, and those have now grown to be it closed last year around 35% for the year was Advanced Solutions.
But again, on a margin perspective, we don't disclose this, but I already said cloud is 12%. Advanced Solutions is much higher than 35% of our net revenue. It's a meaningful contributor to our gross profit. And we're continuing to see that opportunity over time. And that's what we're positioned to grow. But we do need to invest a little bit there too. Not only in Xvantage and enablement there. That's an important enabler that allows us to grow and be more automated so you don't have to add back costs to capture growth.
But what we're more jazzed about is that we want to continue to invest in the technical capabilities that we can now deploy our sales force to be more interactive rather than reactive and actually engaging with our customers to drive that value-added sell, which as we see momentum build in advanced solutions as a broader category, again, that's going to be a good ride to be on.
Let's talk about that. That's where I wanted to go next, which was kind of managing the OpEX side of things, which is you have initiatives in place to drive cost efficiencies. We've been to the automated warehouse down in Texas. It was awesome. You see that. You can see the efficiencies coming through there. At the same time, you also want to invest. How do we think about the balance of those over, again, one to three years? Again, not asking for guidance, but really what I'm trying to get at is as we think about OpEX as a percentage of revenue or OpEX dollars, where does that trend as we take all of these initiatives together?
Yeah. So, we closed the year 2024 at, I think it was 5.1% OpEX as a percentage of net revenue. That included some one-offs of some stock comp that triggered when our IPO happened in October. That was $34.1 million. So, it wasn't inconsequential from an impact perspective. And then some of the one-offs I referred to earlier in our India operation where we took some charges, which was another $20 million. So, right off the bat, you're at right around 5% of net revenues. I would expect, if you think about our model, that we continue to float in those low 5% ranges over the next year plus. And the main reason for that is we are finding a lot of those opportunities.
We've taken out quite a bit of cost that we don't need to add back, as I said, taking out more than $200 million annualized, but then we're offsetting that with investment. And the biggest investment continues to be our Xvantage platform. So, as I mentioned yesterday, we had about $115 million of unique expense just on that front in 2024. And we expect roughly a similar level in 2025 because we are still in develop and deploy mode around Xvantage. That's going to continue probably even into 2026. But during 2026, we start to hit a little bit more of a juxtaposition of steady state where we don't have that heightened OpEX spend.
And therefore, we have line of sight, maybe not for the whole of 2025, but as we get into 2026 and beyond where those efficiencies continue to take hold and you don't have the outsized investment still happening, and therefore our OpEX leverage does move south of five.
Got it. Okay. Let's turn to Xvantage now because you've talked a lot about kind of what it is. I think the question that I get from investors is, how does that make you different? What's the competitive moat? How defensible is that competitive moat when you compare yourselves to others in the distribution realm?
Probably the thing that makes me the happiest about Xvantage and really drives our investment around it is it's AI-enabled multiple engines, 20-plus engines that are driving efficiency in our business. It's 29 million lines of code and counting. I think we're in the 30 range for patents pending on this product. This is meaningful development that we've done, but it's ERP agnostic. What we're doing is we're taking an industry that has been a challenge working with structure of normal ERPs. ERPs will always be our system of record, so don't get me wrong on that. What we're driving is pulling the data out of the ERP into a data mesh that allows us to operate above that from a user interface, from how we do business, from the user experience, that single pane of glass.
All happens at that layer above an Xvantage and creates a much more seamless environment for the customer, for our associates, and for our vendors as we hook those APIs. So, a couple of examples that I would just give you that are interesting in our space. In the US alone, we take about two and a half million. We used to take about two and a half million order status calls because, again, if I take an advanced solutions example where we have six or more products making up a solution, a customer says, "Well, where's my product?" Our people were calling vendors to understand that. But think about your own personal experience when you buy something on any of our large e-commerce sites. You know when it's on the truck in your neighborhood.
So, we are now building the APIs into the carriers and into the vendors that allow that to be a seamless experience for the customer to be able to understand that. And it's taking a workload off of our people who don't need to do those order status checks anymore. Another big area that's very complex in our space is pricing. There's special pricing, rebate programs, vendor programs that exist from all of the vendors. And again, imagine that. Multiply that by six for an average solution to price a deal becomes very challenging.
And so, we're excited about the fact that Xvantage is allowing us to drive more automation around that pricing, be more intelligence through the use of the AI engines that are built into that system to bring what could be hours to days down to minutes and seconds, price an order and make that more seamless end to end. So, I could go on. We only have about three minutes left. I could go on for another three hours, honestly. But we're really excited about that automation that that's bringing. And we're seeing this proliferate well in the business with about 16 countries with the main functionality. We saw in 2024 about a 50% increase in number of users. We saw more than double the number of searches going through these engines. We track dormant customers as an example.
That's classified as a customer who hasn't traded with us for more than a year. We have 8,000 customers that were dormant and now are active with us again. And that's exciting. And they are not doing just dribs and drabs. This is meaningful business that they're conducting with us. And that's exciting because those are all indicators, as those metrics that I just went across, that are indicators that this is making a difference. And we believe we are multiple years ahead of where others are in this space.
Okay. Okay. Before we end, I want to make sure we touch on kind of free cash flow and capital allocation. So, I'll kind of cut to the chase, which is an initiative that you guys have is improving free cash conversion. How do you do it? And then when you generate that cash, what are the priorities that we should be thinking about in terms of uses of that cash?
Absolutely, so excited we closed the year with a strong free cash flow north of $330 million in Q4. We repaid more than $483 million in debt during the year. We're going to pay another $125 million this month. So, cash flow has been solid. The dynamics of free cash flow is driven by working capital more than anything. We manage our business towards being pretty equal on a working capital day basis. That's important because, as I said earlier, as you invest more into or you see more growth in Advanced Solutions, it is more capital intensive. Those are projects that take multiple months to ultimately fulfill. Therefore, you do have a bit more investment in working capital, but it drives a much more robust overall return on working capital to the business. We're going to balance those, but cash flow is a priority.
Our people are evaluated. Our main variable comp programs have a free cash flow or working capital component embedded in it around the world, so people are engaged to try and drive that, and I think that just the one caution I would say is that as we do return to a growth environment, that causes some investment. If that growth environment is happening in the more profitable businesses, it also drives more EBITDA, but we just have to be mindful of that, that we are moving into a growth environment that's going to require working capital to serve.
Okay. And again, 15 seconds left. Just what do you do with that cash then when you generate it?
Yeah. That's perfect. Yeah, so I think we have repaid debt, as I said, but we're also excited right out of the gate from the IPO. We put a dividend in place, and that was approved by our board for Q1, so that'll be repaid in March. It's $7.4 per share out of the gate, so a solid dividend and return to shareholders right out of the gate. But as we also announced yesterday, we just also received approval from our board that contingent with any follow-on offerings from our sponsor, who still owns about 90% of our business, we also would potentially entertain share buybacks. That's not buyback from the public float. That's buyback directly from Platinum, our owner, our primary owner. That, again, is another mode of return to shareholders, and we're still going to be looking at M&A.
We're going to look at where we need to invest in the business. So, I'm very comfortable where our balance sheet is. Our leverage is in a good spot. I'm very comfortable there.
Cool. That is a great way to end.
Awesome.
Thank you very much.
Appreciate it. Thanks, everybody.