Got that right?
You gotta be right.
From Kaltura with us today. Welcome, and, and thanks for, thanks for joining.
Thank you, Austin. Pleasure to be here. Congrats on your new venue.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
It's a good one and much upgraded from last year, so this is good. So maybe just to start, I mean, let's start with background on Kaltura. Just kind of a quick overview and the primary business segments and kind of the target markets in each.
Happy to do that. So Kaltura provides, video-related products to the enterprise world, B2B, all cloud, all SaaS. We have two types of offerings: horizontal offerings that cater to any company of any industry, and vertical offerings currently for two verticals, education and media. On the horizontal side, we started, years back with video content management, which would be the system of record for all stored video, mainly video-on-demand, and moved to live broadcast with video town hall-type solutions, live broadcast to many people. And then in 2020, moved into also adding real-time communication, it's a complex product for events, webinars, and, virtual classroom. So now we run the gamut between internal solutions for employees, for learning, training, HR-related communication, and external for marketing, CIO and CMO. That's horizontal.
On the vertical side, in education, we power video-based learning both in the classroom and remote, integrated into the LMSs like Blackboard, Moodle, Sakai, Canvas, and on the media and telecom side, cloud television. So it's full live on-demand, catch-up video, clickers on your living room, TV-type delivery, which is over-the-top. We power 30% of the Fortune 100, some of the biggest, best, top tech companies in that. So we power, for example, events and content management for folks like Amazon and SAP and Oracle and IBM and Adobe and VMware, and many others.
On the financial services side, the five biggest banks in the U.S., the biggest insurance companies, retailers all over, and on the vertical side, half of the R1 schools in the U.S., and half of the Ivy League schools, and some of the biggest media and telecom companies in the world, including Vodafone in Europe, et cetera.
Okay, that's great. So maybe just looking at the September results and kind of what were the key takeaways from that and maybe the main areas of investor debate or things that you took away from those results.
Yeah. So going backwards in our entire industry, it's been a challenging couple of years, post-COVID. In general, we have been a nice, growing company, SaaS company type, KPIs, plus profitable in 2019 and 2020, which wasn't typical. People ask me, "Why were you profitable and grew?" I said, "Sue me for believing our company needs to be profitable." A couple of years after, they're like: Okay, we get it. But we were in the right direction. COVID added a bit of a backward push. Not crazy, because we're a large enterprise, not SMB, and so it wasn't a huge tailwind, but it was still a bit of a push. And then the last couple of years for the entire industry have been pretty tough.
It started with a year after COVID, where a lot of folks said, "You know what? Put a lot of video solutions. Let's wait a bit and turn it a bit more strategic view," which we'll talk about in a second, I assume. But it works well for us because we're the consolidator of this industry. We have a very horizontal stack that runs deep, it runs wide, and could address multiple use cases. But just as they were ready to kind of hit the play button on their longer-term plans, came the down financial downturn. A lot of folks waited with additional acquisitions, started pushing down on price, et cetera. So the entire industry that we're in has been somewhat pushed down. So that's kind of the backstory.
We've been actually executing better than most other public video companies, growing mid-single digit on subscription revenue, low single digit on total revenue, and coming back to being profitable. We've stated this year was gonna be a low, small loss compared to last year, both on cash and adjusted EBITDA. And then that revenue was gonna continue to grow, albeit that most of the other folks have been down year over year, 15%, 7%. We've always climbed, we've always been up. Now, let's get into the quarter itself. That's kind of a high-level story. So this last quarter, I think, was good on the revenue side.
We delivered as promised and beat the guidance range increase for the second time in a row of the year, just by a little bit, but yet still putting numbers up, opposite direction than most other vendors that have been taking it down for a couple of times. And then the highest year-over-year growth on total revenue, for total revenue was eight percent growth. So it's and record subscription revenue. So all in all, on the revenue side, it was in the right direction. Bottom line was, again, ahead of plan. Also, second time in a row, improved the numbers for the year, the guidance for the year. It was a positive Adjusted EBITDA for the first time since 2020, which is great.
And also, cash flow ops have been positive, so this is great. From a demand and booking, we don't report on booking. You can kind of see it through the RPO, but we talk about it freely.
Mm-hmm.
We continue to see the same thing we've seen all year long, which is good behavior on the top of the funnel insofar as the number of QBMs, number of meetings set by our SDRs, the RFPs and the nature of the RFPs. So the demand is. There's still demand there that's coming in, and a good close ratio at the bottom. The win ratio continues to be in the 40s, so it's a good, strong win ratio. The issue is the middle of that funnel, where it's getting elongated and deals aren't closing at the speed that they otherwise would. So the bottom line was that we're at kind of that flat booking level throughout the year, at about 25% lesser than last year, albeit that we're a third less in salespeople, so productivity-wise, it actually improved.
But that being said, it's still kind of stagnating at a lower level than we would have hoped in a typical year. And also, that adds up to a bit lower Gross Retention rates compared to typical years. We're usually at the high 80s%, this is more mid-80s%. So it's a year in which you're getting some downward pressure on Gross Retention and some downward pressure on bookings, which is what everybody's seeing. All in all, it's hitting us less than the other folks, but we are still continuing to see that. And so we guided towards somewhat of a decline in Q4. We also stated we don't see that continuing into Q1.
Mm-hmm.
And that's that story. Otherwise, we talk more about product. We've had some exciting continued deployments around AI. So all in all, I think we're doing well on the guided numbers, but it's still a non-typical year. It's the worst by far that we've had in the last 16 years. So-
Yeah.
That's the nature of this year.
Yeah, that's great. A lot to unpack there.
It's great, but it is what it is.
So obviously, the macro and you've touched on this has been on everyone's minds.
Yeah.
Just one of the things that you called out there was around consolidation and kind of-
Yeah
consolidating other tools. I guess, how do you, I guess, what are you consolidating? What kind of tool sets are you bringing together? And where are you finding the most success, you know, from that, despite a tougher macro?
This touches on the USP of Kaltura and really what makes us unique. I mentioned earlier that we have both horizontal products and vertical products, and we're touching quite a lot of different industries. The reason we're able to do that is, as far back as 15 years ago, we basically said we believe that video requires a platform and not a set of individual point solutions. Because while they could seem as if seemingly different use cases around training, learning, marketing, sales require different tools, they do bank on similar capabilities around video. So, for lack of other words, we built a Lego kit for video management, a tool that enables you to upload, manage, distribute, publish, engage, monetize, analyze video, and then put it together, like Lego, into different products.
So we run deep, meaning we could integrate deeply into workflows, which the virtue of having a very flexible set, but we also run wide, insofar as interoperability across multiple use cases. This is really important because it enables us to provide a single platform to replace multiple point solutions for companies, which both enables economy of scale, cheaper prices, but it also enables not to break in, into silos and then to have kind of, an issue around multiple products that you need to manage. What we've seen over the years, and when we IPO'd, we actually gave a stat that half of our customers use 3+ products by Kaltura, and it's only increased over the years. In the last three years, it was a big shift as we added the whole marketing-focused products and RTC, real-time conferencing, where before it was VOD and Live.
That brings us to a holistic solution that addresses on-demand, live, and real-time, internal and external. So a lot of customers, recently as well, are starting with external, moving to internal or the other way around. So we gave a few examples as of recent. Salesforce, for example, joined us for the very first time at the beginning of the year. They use us for Dreamforce and for all their external videos and what's called Salesforce + for streaming of videos. Dreamforce was just great. We did all the virtual stuff, and they're now going deeper into internal stuff. That's one example. The other direction, or actually the same direction, Adobe, that's a new customer as of Q4 last year.
They started with events for training externally for partners and customers, and now they've added Adobe TV, which is the internal use case for Adobe across internal. Again and again, we see the same story. VMware replaced six different vendors, 12 different instances of video with Kaltura, across internal and external use cases. And so the opportunity here is twofold. Number one is, as we go to customers, start externally, move internally or the other way around, you have good Net Dollar Retention, opportunity of land and expand, and a higher ARPU than most, and a better barrier of replacement once you're in and you're the platform that goes all the way in. But there's a secondary element here, which is consolidating the space.
And so this space has a lot of different players, a lot of different vendors, and it's not going to remain so two, three, four years down the line. We think we can be the natural consolidator. We've proven that we're able to enter one market and then move to another, another, another, and bring in the best and the hardest of customers. So we are in, you know, 30% of the Fortune 100, as I mentioned, top across each sector, but vertically, as I said, some of the biggest schools, some of the biggest media companies, and we entered winning. So if you think about media and telecom, the very first customer we had for TV was Vodafone, is the largest mobile operator outside of the US, and they had Cisco, Ericsson, and TiVo prior.
In came a company that was yeah small and replaced all these very big vendors.
Right.
And we hit with events. It was during COVID. The very first event we ever did was re:Invent for Amazon, and Andy Jassy himself had made the decision to have gone with Kaltura and not with Zoom or anybody else. For the biggest event, 600,000 registrants, 300,000 participants in the height of COVID, he's getting on stage to speak. So we would not have picked anything short of the best technology out there. So the fact that we're able to have moved from VOD, live, real-time, out of the use cases, shows that it's truly a successful platformic approach in which you could be number one in one industry, and then number one in two, and number one in three, as opposed to number three in three industries.
Yeah.
That enables you to really consolidate this space, and I think that's the promise over the next few years.
So, this is a really good segue, I think, into kind of the broader competitive set. You know, I think one of the more misunderstood things about Kaltura is the notion of a video content management platform versus a meetings vendor. And I think there's obviously some misunderstandings there. So maybe just to level set, you know, who you truly compete with, and also, you've expanded more into the real-time side as well, and then to the meeting side. But maybe just walk us through kind of where you see the competitive landscape kind of shaking out.
I think that the fragmented competition is exactly the opportunity that we're actually talking about.
Yeah.
Some people could say, "You know what? You're competing against a bunch of companies." You could say, "Yes, but we're successfully competing against a bunch of companies in a world that will not continue to have so many different competitors." So it speaks to the consolidation opportunity that we're having here, and unlike the other players, we're able to have a larger addressable market with a very clear USP. But to your question, when we started around video content management, there was a list of about 20 players. Some of them were the traditional online video platforms, like a Brightcove or a Ooyala, and then it had IBM that had their own stuff, and Microsoft had very basic stuff around Microsoft Stream. And there was a list of folks, small private companies and some mid-size and some that have gone public, like a Brightcove.
But that was just the VCMS, and then as we moved on to the vertical areas, we started getting into areas that none of them entered because of that Lego concept, right? We could build a plane and a car out of Lego and not just have a bag of Legos. So we're able to get into education, and lo and behold, none of these companies are in that industry because they couldn't build together the product that goes deep into the LMSs, and we were. And so then it's a different set, like a Panopto as a product company or a couple of other product companies, but it's not a big enough market to bring in a huge company. And yet for us, it's just another piece of what we've built, and so that's the education side.
Media and telecom, historically, as I said, it was the Ciscos and Ericssons and TiVos of the world, and then private equities that had acquired companies into that space. So Permira, One Equity Partners, that have bought Synamedia and MediaKind, and we're competing with them and winning against them. And the same goes across now as we've entered the RTC, real-time conferencing world, and into the events world, but we're touching different areas, whether it's ON24 for webinars and Vimeo, as they try to go up the market from SMB to larger companies, but also folks that have done physical events like Cvent or like, some of the other guys.
So again, it sounds like a long list, unless one understands that the general direction that it's going to, is to really want to have one vendor that provides a holistic platform that addresses all of it. In which case, you're greater than and equal, or just greater than the other options, because they're just giving you a piece, right? You can feel the trunk of the elephant, the tail of the elephant. It's not the full elephant, but we're bringing the full elephant, so that's a big, big advantage. So I think people are starting to get the opportunity around that, not just look at it as a point of confusion or a point of risk, but a point of opportunity.
On the product side, maybe just walk us through what you've announced from a generative AI perspective and, you know, maybe more broadly, just, you know, from a high level, how do you expect that to, you know, the advent of generative AI, to kind of impact this space and maybe just kind of more broadly, software?
So we've always had a lot of analytics. Obviously, we're starting to add more AI tools, and there's huge opportunity in having kind of a smart platform for anything, especially for video as well. The main areas around AI, so there's the first thing, which is surrounding AI around our experiences that are not directly related to video. But let's say we're enabling an event and the creation of the event, so how you segment the customer participant base, creating the invitation email, the agenda itself, recommendation on who should speak, what the topic should be about, managing the event itself, post-event summaries, sending out stuff, following up on leads. All of that could have, you know, kind of classic ChatGPT-like type solution added into the workflows and added into the products, and we're definitely adding that.
So that increases ROI, streamlines the creation, and improves the results of products. Then you have things that are touching video but are not in the core of the video creation, but are touching the video itself, mainly the metadata of the video. So transcription, that's done in a better, newer way compared to old technology, summarization of the transcription, and stuff of that nature. And then ultimately, you're getting into the video creation itself, and that too, is divided into two parts. One part is when you're recreating videos, repurposing videos, when you have an existing video, and you can slice it and cut it and send to individual people the specific parts of the videos that are relevant based on what's out there and what people want to know. And the other one is full synthetic creation of video, all the way from scratch.
So there's a content, and then you're creating video. So we're we started already with the surrounding stuff, not with our core technology, but integrating existing off-the-shelf APIs. We've moved into metadata, and video repurposing is something we're doing with VMware. We're doing, we've done some good work with Salesforce, connected into Einstein for summarization, and we're moving into more and more towards the full creation of video, which is gonna be exciting. I think this is huge because over history, there have been different technologies for creation of video and distribution, publishing, and engagement of video, right? You had the companies that were creating, you know, 20th Century Fox or whatever, that were creating media stuff and those that would distribute that, whether it's AMC or send it to your TV with, Time Warner Inc.
But now Netflix obviously enables to do both, and the more you're shrinking the creation and distribution and publishing it, there's an opportunity. But specifically, as we speak about the enterprise, for either learning or marketing, consider the following. Let's say that you have this—or schools. You have this tutor that basically sits with you and knows what you're learning, how well you're doing. You're filling up quizzes or exams and knows your mistakes, and creates kind of this concoction on steroids of content for you that's immediate, that's personal, that's hyper-engaging and hyper personal for you and you only, but it was just created, which is highly immersive and video-based, but teaches you everything you need to teach.
So you don't need the historical publishers, you don't need Pearson, you don't need McGraw Hill, because content is created on the fly, highly enriched for whatever you need, right there, right then for you to learn, whether it is at school or whether it is at your place of work because you're reskilling or just lifelong learning. So that's where we're seeing things go. And that would bring the consumption, the creation of video and the consumption of video to a place that's much, much higher. The ROI would be much higher. But that's just internal learning. Let's talk about marketing, right? The way that people look at a website today is very antiquated, right? They go and you click it 20 million times to figure out what the website is, what, what the company does.
If you came in and you're looking for a product, if you're just trying to learn the industry, if you're trying to get support for a product, it's a very flat experience, and you need to find your way through, right? Imagine you got, again, this concierge, and you come in, and depending on why you're there, creates the right rich experience for you, exactly for what you need, and takes you through that journey, whether it is teaching you about the product or the industry or whatever it is you need. So that's where we're gonna take things ultimately, and our view is that we've been a vendor of trust and of choice of some of the biggest companies in the world across each industry for highly engaging, immersive experiences that are already integrated into either learning and/or marketing/customer experience use case.
So adding that automatic creation, distribution, publishing of video is the next natural step.
So-
That will really, really be exciting.
How does monetization play into that? You know, maybe just to level set for investors too, you know, the impact to revenue and bookings and, you know, some kinds of things from the new or from the financial impact of these things, you know, like, when should that be expected for newer products that are you know have been announced or to be announced or, you know, are coming? You know, how should we think about that?
So hard to say. We started with a few. There's already now 10 customers with a pilot program that we have also with 15 vendors. We created this accelerator program.
Mm-hmm.
We've always been great at integrating third parties, part of the benefit of that Lego approach. We have 120 companies that have built plugins into what we do, so we're not trying to recreate the wheel and build the whole ecosystem, but bring other companies to help us. And we bring this to market. So the first goal is adoption, second goal is, you know, the types of companies that we use, and the third goal is revenue and obviously ultimately profitability. We do see willingness to pay. We do see an acceptance of the ROI is higher and folks are willing to do it. It's too early for us in the entire industry to be able to say this is exactly, the metric and this is how much it's gonna yield, but I believe it's a significant lift.
It's in tens of %, I believe, because the issue is not so much if people are willing to pay for the function that you're providing them. I believe that the amount of videos that would be created and the amount of videos that will be consumed will be materially higher. Still gonna give them the platform, but the usage of the platform and the mission criticality and the ROI is much, much higher. And, and the unique thing about Kaltura , because we run deep, again, with our APIs, we're not a platform about video. It's not about a video player. It's not about video. It's video as a mean, not as an end, right? When we work with universities, we provide better teaching and learning. When we work with corporates around events, we provide a more engaging event experience.
So when we're gonna add the AI, we have the layer of integration into workflows and the layer of data that we and the customers provide, and on top of that, AI, on top of that, the system of engagement, the actual engagement tool, we got the whole sandwich. We bring this to folks. I think there's a tremendous value in this. So yeah, I think it's, it's gonna this, but look, this is a show-me market. This isn't a tell-me, I'm not trying to throw stories at people and expect something's gonna excite people. You know, we're here because we believe in this. We're gonna continue to build this, and the quarters ahead and the years ahead are gonna show how well it does.
Yeah. So let's pivot a little bit to the go-to-market. I think in recent quarters, you've talked about moving a little bit more towards self-service, towards a low-touch sales model. At the same time, you've also talked about, you know, improving sales rep productivity. So it seems like both of these are kind of moving in the right direction and, you know, could potentially set up for a good next year. I guess just in terms of the evolution of the sales org and kind of where we sit, you know, where do you see as the greatest opportunities? And then kind of the areas that you still need to improve or, you know, get better heading into the next year.
So as we have built more products, especially as we have moved to real-time powered products, they started to be more relevant for SMEs. We don't want to go all the way down to SMBs. But, you know, the very first time that a company needed a video portal to run all their videos was not when the company was, you know, 100 people, 200 people, 500 people, maybe it's larger corporations. I can tell you in comparison, the very first time we used some sort of a real-time, live, you know, screen sharing/video, we were four people strong. So you got to start with these type of tools when you're smaller. So the opportunity opened up to also cater to SMEs and start smaller.
And so we started also to prepare and build products that are more product-like growth type, that freemium models, and just let people test and let the products roll in. And with that, started with more low touch all the way through complete self-serve. The first product that was complete self-serve is our webinar product, which is a full credit card type. Now, we said in the past year that we're still kind of a product market fit to make sure this works well. Was always gravy and upside for the revenue, for the year, and we said maybe gradually over the years that it's gonna grow. Yeah, I think it's interesting. If given the craziness of the last couple of years and the degree that we had to invest versus earlier plans, that's not where, you know, the next improvement is gonna come from.
We think that the core business of the company, which is large enterprise, as it goes down a bit, to sell this mission-critical capabilities, is where we're at. It's bound to grow back, given the history of how we've done, and this is the last couple of years were by far different than any other year in the history, pre-COVID or others, because it's a big correction, and regression back to the mean is a powerful force. The amount of people that have said, "Look, we wanna move to Kaltura, but we're waiting for a better year to do this because it makes a ton of sense in the mid to long term. We save money, it's a better solution, it's better ROI, but within the same few months or the same year we're gonna put it, there's just effort and risk associated.
We didn't want to do it in 2023." And so come 2024, come 2025, it's hard to say when and how the markets are gonna be better to the point that people are gonna say, "We're not gonna continue to lose money on a multi-year basis/go for a lesser solution. We wanna make this move." I believe it's gonna come. So the good thing is we don't need a revolution or an evolution in order to do well. We've been investing, we've been falling forward, not backwards, in the last three years. Some companies have gotten to the situation of cut all their spend, and they don't have the growth engine for the future. We've built, and just like initially, I said that we were gonna be profitable again because I believe we're a profitable company.
We didn't cut all our costs on the very first day when things went sour. We said, "We're gonna conclude this, we're gonna stick the landing, and then we're gonna gradually cut the cost, and we're gonna get to the point that we're break even again," which we are. But this means that we can execute on the larger enterprise, mission-critical, and then move to the self-serve, angle of what we do. So I wouldn't overbuild the impact. Let's wait and see again. I don't wanna overpromise.
Okay. We are at the 10-minute mark, so I think we can open it up to questions if there are any. If you do have a question, raise your hand, and we can take that. If not, I have a few more.
Not all at one. There you go.
One or two things that-
I think that people look at video equals like everything in video is the same. Video is video, is video. And I think they don't really look at it as a means for an end, system of engagement in order to better learn, better teach, better this and that. I think that if you have a player and, or, or just a conferencing system, that indeed it's an end, not a means for an end. But if you look at the experiences that we're in, they really are powering better learning. They're powering better marketing. And therefore, the fact that it's video is a side story. It's the way in which we provide better learning. It's the way in which we provide... That's point number one.
I think point number two is back to the point about being in multiple markets and the fact that there could be multiple competitors. It might sound as if it's complex, right? Like I said, if you're going with a platform. Everybody claims they're a platform, right? Every single software in the world says they're a platform just because they have a couple of APIs. You're a platform if you cater to multiple markets, multiple use cases, multiple buyers, and Kaltura is a platform. If you do a platform move and it succeeds, the opportunity from a TAM are quite sizable. And I think that if people look at this and they understand the consolidation that we could provide in this market that is highly fragmented, they'll understand that it's an opportunity to grow very nicely in these components.
So I would use these two points, the mean, as opposed to an end of video that's driving value in different ways, and the fact that consolidation is really exciting. Plus, we're nice people. I don't know if people get that. You get that. We get that.
I wanna... Well, I guess let's talk about the Virtually Live event, the recent event that you held-
That's right
... for customers. So I guess just any major takeaways that you had from that, and, you know, if there's any way to look at, you know, lead generation or things that may have come out of that event, that would be...
So we've been having it. It's the third time we have Virtually Live. It's an event about virtual events. So virtual events about virtual events, and basically talks about how to engage people with remotely. It's a great event. We've had this time, and it's growing year after year. There's about 3,000 registrants. We had 40% attendance rate, which is great compared to people that had registered ahead of time. So it was a fair amount of people that had showed up. Amazing speakers. Some of them have repeated, and some were new. Yeah, CMOs and VPs of stellar companies, from AWS, to Google, to Adobe, to Salesforce, VMware that I mentioned, many of which are customers, but not just in all. There were other folks from other areas.
The conversation, the other part that I really liked, what we did this time, in order to engage more, we had a bunch of different types of activities, and they ranged from fireside chats to, you know, keynote speeches and stuff like that, but they also moved into other type. We had a game show that was pre-recorded, and in real-time, people from the audience could participate in the questions in the game show. We had raffles. We had keynote speakers that are kind of experts from the industry, come and provide quality presentations with the full decks that were there, downloadable for people. And so you had a lot of different ways and shapes, raffles, I think I mentioned. So that was really engaging. We used AI in preparation during and after.
In real time, we send out summaries. In real time, we try to look at the engagement level, and now the AI recommend what we should change real time in order to actually increase it, engagement, so that was, that was really great. And from a result perspective on all of that, we had, I don't know, more than 1,000 new QBMs that were coming to the company that we didn't have earlier. We had, you know, already pipeline that started to build from that event. But again, we're a longer sales cycle company, given that it's larger enterprise. The impact is not immediate a month after, but it's building over the period. But it's re-strengthened the notion of how people are using AI for video, and a lot of what I said earlier and how people are coming in.
I think it put us in a great spot to be able to be a vendor of choice for a lot of these folks-
Yeah
-in general and specifically as we think about AI and adopting AI.
So I think, I think one of the bigger takeaways for me was just to focus on the marketing use case-
Yeah
-and then just, you know, the office of the CMO, I guess, if you were to look at it that way. So I guess, you know, from a use case perspective, are there certain areas that you feel are underpenetrated that Kaltura might be able to better address, you know, maybe like marketing or others?
I think it's a combination of both. It's not so much that just marketing or just training or just learning. I mean, take the example of, I don't know, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch. We started internally with the content management and a video portal, then moved into webcasting, and then it moved into external stuff, and are now powering also wealth management. So we got the wealth managers that are creating, distributing, videos for all their customers using our system, which is highly, you know, addressing all the regulations that are required and the compliance aspects. Because when you're sending out videos into—for recommending, if you've got to trade on a stock, it has to be very long.
So the ARPU have gone, you know, 5x-10x in some of these customers, from hundreds of thousands to multi-million-dollar a year recurring in these customers, and it's really, really exciting. So I think the combination of being able, back into that Lego concept, of using Kaltura for multiple points, and regardless of where you started, you're getting into that journey of adding more things, is really exciting, and it also creates for a great barrier of entry. And, so we're much stickier once you're becoming the platform of choice.
Okay.
That is the most exciting part, and it doesn't need to be just marketing or just that. We have examples of going one way, and we have examples of going the other way as well.
Right. So shifting gears to the financial model, for a few minutes here. You've greatly improved profitability over the last several quarters. Revenue growth is starting to pick up as well. But I guess just on the profitability side, you know, what are your expectations going forward for further margin expansion? And then maybe following on that, just how the existing term loan fits into that discussion.
A term loan is redone now. It's gonna be ready by the end of the quarter. It was due at the beginning of the year, but it's kicked for three years, in better terms than it was before. We just needed to finish the agreement, so everything's going in the right direction, so no issue there. And we have enough cash, enough net cash, enough gross cash, more than enough, and we're going out profitable, so that's great. And so far as growth versus profitability, look, you don't get extra points for getting a 5%-10% bottom line margin. I mean, we want to be at that control our own destiny point at this point and reaccelerate growth. And growth is three times more exciting than profitability.
Literally, if you run a regression on valuation, you'd find that out. So it's really a question of what's gonna happen to the unit economics and to demand and to growth behavior coming into 2024 and beyond. We'd like to invest more in growth, right? We'd like to come to be double digits and then continue to grow. At a certain point, once you get to that right type of growth, to come back to increase margin. We did give ... When we were IPO-ing our view on the macro kind of look, we did say we think we could get from the mid-60s%. At the time, it was low 60s% or even high 50s% to 70% gross margin. We're halfway there.
The only reason it's 70 and not 80 is because we have markets like media that are a bit lower in the margin side, so the blend ends up, and some professional services, which helps us be sticky, so about 70%. You know, we think that we could take R&D down to somewhere around 20 and sales and marketing would probably remain about 30, and G&A would be about 10. That brings us to 10. And so the question is, at that point, what do we double down on? You know, do we go further on profitability and take it from 10 to 20, or do we just double down on growth? Remains to be seen. But right now, just get to the profitable point, which we're generally there, and hopefully re-accelerate.
That's because right now, this isn't the growth that is meaningful for anybody, and it's definitely not what we've been accustomed to, and it's not the potential of this company, and it's the entire industry is there and worse, but it can only go up from here.
Yeah. So as we think about the longer-term growth algorithm, just for longer-term minded investors, you know, in getting to that growth rate that you're aspiring towards, I guess, how would you stack rank the opportunities like expansion, new logos, you know, price, cross-sell, those kinds of things? Like, how would you kind of characterize those in the broader discussion of growth?
Look, historically, it was about 50/50 in booking between new logos and renewals. In the height of COVID, there was a bit more new logos, and then following that, it became more upsells, and in the last period, it's been less around new logo. I think we're gonna come back to about 50/50. There's a lot more growth opportunity, and there's a lot—like I said, that 5x to 10x growth opportunity across customers, which we started with a few, there's a lot more. I think it's well balanced. But again, I don't wanna promise the moon right now. We're so off as an industry as a whole, and as it is, as a mid-cap, you know, the demand right now is not yet there, plus liquidity issues for a small cap.
There's a lot of things that we need to go through over the next 12 months. Let's start by, you know, delivering a profitable year, accelerating growth, and then taking it from there.
Okay. Well, I think we're about up on time. Any closing thoughts, just to kinda close us out?
Thank you for having me. It's always great. Thank you for your continued support. You know, as I said, I think video is in... You know, some people think that, you know, video is, is over or something. I think it's kind of funny. I mean, it's the most popular medium out there. It may be the first revolution of just having, like I said earlier, video as a mean-- as an end, not as a mean, just conferencing is there. But are we truly harnessing the power of video in order to do everything that we're doing in the enterprise better? Are we learning better? Are we training better, marketing better, selling better? Not so much integrated yet. And so to do that, you need a system that would integrate deep, and instead of having 20 of these, one that would run wide.
And this is exactly what we were built to do. And so I think that the future is ahead of us. When you add AI, as I mentioned, then you're really looking into a whole new, brave, new world that could enable a lot of different things. And I think that we are directionally in the right direction. We continue to be the premium product of this industry. We continue to do better than our competitors, and we have an amazing customer set. So I think the direction is the right direction. We just need to continue to execute. And lastly, now that we're coming back to being profitable, what we said, we've delivered on our promises historically on bottom line. In 2019, 2020, we're profitable, and here we are yet again doing that, so it's really just continue to execute.
That's great.
Wells Fargo, our customer, we thank you for . . .
That's all right. I think it's a great place to leave it. Thanks, Ron. Thanks, everybody, for joining.