At the 26th Annual Needham Growth Conference. We're going to be having a discussion with the CEO of MKS Instruments, John Lee. We also have with us today David Ryzhik, Vice President of Investor Relations. My name is Jim Ricchiuti, Senior Analyst in the Equity Research Department at Needham, covering companies in the advanced industrial technologies area. MKS, I think most people know, is a leading subsystem supplier to the semi-cap industry, for decades, been a longtime player. But in recent years, has diversified and broadened its reach, into the laser and photonics markets, some real interesting markets, we think, as well as increasingly so in the electronics and electronics packaging market through a series of acquisitions, the most recent being Atotech in August 2022.
So we're gonna get into a bit of a fireside chat. Before we do that, David's gonna do some of the disclosure.
Thanks, Jim. So because we're in our quiet period, our comments will solely focus on the long-term growth and opportunities for MKS and will not address results for Q4 of 2023. In addition, any forward-looking statements that we may make today are subject to our risk factors and our SEC filings. You can find the GAAP reconciliation to any non-GAAP numbers that we may talk about on the IR page of our website.
Okay, great. John, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Sure. So, you know, I touched on it a little bit, what the company's been doing-
Yeah
but why don't you give us a brief snapshot from where you sit of MKS today?
Yeah, sure. Thanks, Jim. Well, at MKS, we like to think of ourselves as foundational to a connected world, and that connected world is, of course, advanced electronics. And as Jim said, we started in this market 60 years ago in the semiconductor chip-making market, and that's really the legacy MKS. Over time, we've expanded our breadth there through acquisitions as well as organic growth. And so we've assembled the broadest portfolio of critical subsystems addressing the semiconductor manufacturing market. And we started with deposition and etch, and then we expanded to lithography, metrology, and inspection. And so now, if you look at a fab, 85% of every piece of equipment in that fab has multiple MKS subsystems in it. There's no other company with that breadth just in semiconductor manufacturing.
As Jim said, over time, we realized that manufacturing using lasers was going to become more important because things were getting smaller, needing more and more precision. And that informed us through the acquisition of Newport as well as Electro Scientific Industries. And it's a bigger picture because when you think about advanced electronics, that trend is something where I think everybody would agree, advanced electronics is a good place to be. No one's ever disagreed with me on that. And in the past, what made advanced electronics better was just the chip. So some of us are old enough to remember buying a new PC every time Intel came out with a new processor, right? 286, bought a new computer, 386, 486 Pentium. Because in the past, it was just the semiconductor that made that advanced electronics better.
But really, when you think about it, we didn't buy the chip. We bought the advanced electronics. That was the PC. Now, then you move forward, and that advanced electronics took on a new form factor, phones, smartphones. And now you require not just the chip to be better, but you require the packaging to shrink everything to be better. And when you think about that roadmap, advanced electronics is no longer going to advance just because the chip is better. You have to have the packaging be better. And that informed us, and is the reason why we bought Atotech. Atotech is the market leader in providing chemistry and chemistry equipment to enable the most advanced package substrates. Now, what are package substrates?
Package substrates are things that allow chips to talk to each other, and this has been going on for many years, but it's really accelerating now because when you think about the power, power of the chips that we have and the number of chips stacked on top of each other, that's packaging, too, chip-on-chip, HBM, or memory on top of logic. But once you've done that, you've gotta get all these things to talk to each other, and that's done through this package substrate. This package substrate, by the way, is getting bigger. The lines and spaces are getting smaller. The vias, the holes, are getting smaller, and the number of layers is increasing because you have to have more highways for these chips to talk to each other. And so that's a great place to be for MKS.
We are really the only company that addresses all these major critical areas to making advanced electronics.
Let's talk a little bit about Atotech, because for some people, it was a little bit of a surprise. But when you talk about the opportunity-
Yeah
in electronic packaging, I think it has begun to resonate a little bit more with investors. So going back to the acquisition, what, 16 months or so since you've done it?
Yeah, that's right.
What's worked well with the acquisition? What maybe has surprised you, things that you maybe had to do some course adjustments? Maybe it's been the macro.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, certainly, you know, during our diligence, we knew that Atotech had probably the strongest R&D organization in chemistry. They also had the largest market share in equipment for plating. And what I was surprised at was it's even stronger than we actually thought. They have the deepest bench of R&D folks. What's also a little surprising is we knew that they were already addressing the top 30 substrate makers. But as I've gone on road trips with the Atotech team to visit customers, it was really a bit surprising how critical Atotech is to the success of these customers. With Atotech, as well as our laser tool, we're addressing 70% of all the steps needed by those customers to make an advanced package substrate.
So you can imagine that, you know, when we install a 100-meter-long Atotech tool, all with all the chemistry in it, and then putting laser tools in there, you know, we're essential and critical to those companies. So that relationship with customers is really deep, really broad, and across the world. So that was a great surprise. I think we certainly were not expecting a macro dip in electronics and packaging on the order of 15%. That's the market decline, 15, over the last year. It's also the largest decrease ever in Atotech's history, so they've never seen this. Now, it's driven by a couple of things. Of course, PCs in the first half of 2023 were down 30%, servers were down, smartphones were down, everything was kind of down.
But, you know, that's the market right now. So that was a bit of a surprise for us, but, you know, I'm really happy with the synergies, and the design wins, and the conversations we're having with customers going forward. And I think that's really going to portend a really great upturn when the markets recover.
And we'll come back and revisit that, but obviously, there's still a lot of interest in the legacy semiconductor portion of the business- and what's happening there. You know, we've been hearing for some time now about the opportunities that present itself in the semiconductor market from AI, ML. Over the years, you've seen more than your fair share of catalysts, right? For the semiconductor and electronics demand. Talk to us about what you see as the driver for MKS, maybe for the industry, when we get to that next cyclical upturn-
Yeah
and maybe, yeah.
Yeah, so certainly there, there's a lot of buzz today about artificial intelligence, and that is a big driver. It drives more GPUs, more powerful GPUs, and the CPUs that go with it, and the high-bandwidth memory that goes with it. You know, but when you step back over at least my 30 years in semi, it's just really the next thing, you know, of many things that have driven the need for more semiconductor chips. You know, first was PCs. Remember, P stands for personal. Some of us are old enough to know that before that, you didn't have a personal computer. You had to go to the, you know, the university center and use a big supercomputer. But P became personal. Everybody can own one. And then, you know, you go to laptops, mobile.
Oh, everyone can carry one." And then, suddenly, you could carry your phone, and then, by the way, the phone is talking to something. It's a cloud. Well, I need servers now, right? And now I have all this data, and AI is kind of the next application of: How do I make, you know, information out of data? And so I look at it as just another stepping stone to a long history, where if we can make chips cheaper and more powerful, people are gonna find ways to utilize it. So I think that's really why we have—we're long-term bullish, obviously, on semiconductors. You know, you have market analysts predicting a $1 trillion semiconductor chip market by 2030. We don't necessarily disagree with that.
and then, when you look at CapEx intensity, it's hovered around that 12%-14%, so, you know, 12% of a trillion is under $20 billion WFE. We're at $85 billion this year, right? That's a down year. So at $120 billion or $140 billion WFE in the next couple of years, this is really great tailwinds for the industry.
Now, for MKS, you've talked about being able to grow and access the WFE, and you know, some over certain intervals, that's played out, other times, it hasn't.
Yeah.
Talk to us about your confidence in that.
Yeah. So, you know, at Analyst Day, we talked about the last 10 years' history. You're right. On the upturn, we outgrow the market, and the downturn, we underperform the market. It's just the nature of inventory corrections during a cyclical industry. So that's why we look at the long term. In the long term, when you look at WFE CAGR and our CAGR, we've demonstrated that we can outgrow WFE CAGR by 200 basis points. That's just data. And we expect that to go into the future, and then you can ask, "Well, why? Why should we expect that to occur?" There are some product categories in semiconductor equipment where we are high market share, so it's tough to outgrow the market there when you maybe are defining the market.
But there are many other categories where we might have been 15% market share going to 30, RF Power being the most recent example. There are also other areas we've talked about, world-class optics, right? This is an area where we have underserved the metrology, lithography, inspection markets, and so investments there that we made a few years ago are starting to pay off now. You're starting to see the revenue from our lithography, metrology, inspection market increase over time. And, you know, that's actually good in a couple of ways. Number one, more market share to outgrow WFE, but also it's a little more stable-
Right
... critical subsystem than the vacuum part. Because our customers there, think about the lithography companies and inspection companies, they have very long lead times. They have a huge backlog that lasts a long time. The supply chain is similar, right? So we're trying to take some cyclicality out of our company as well, through, you know, exposing ourselves to parts of WFE that are less cyclical, as well as exposing ourselves to other areas of advanced electronics, where it's a little less cyclical and utilization dependent. So Atotech chemistry, of course, is utilization dependent... not CapEx dependent. And so that also takes out some of that cyclicality. That's important because as the problems get harder, you need to have scale to be able to continue to invest in R&D during downturns. And as the problems get harder, these problems take multiple years to solve.
And, you know, the best example is ASML EUV, took two decades. That's a lot of persistence, and a lot of R&D, but they got it done, right? And that's, you know, an extreme example, but that's really what's happening throughout the semiconductor industry. That's also what's happening throughout the advanced packaging industry.
Okay, and curious, you've seen some of the commentary from some of your customers, and since Q3, are you seeing anything that has changed the way you're viewing that part of the business over the next couple of quarters? Or is it pretty much as expected?
Yeah, the semiconductor business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And by the way, tell us, John, just for our folks, what does the semi represent right now?
Yeah, se-
in the business?
... the semiconductor revenue is about 40%.
Versus what, a few years ago?
It could be as high as 70.
Okay.
60-70.
Okay.
Yeah. And it's almost stable now, too-
Yeah
cause you've got the lithography, metrology, inspection. And electronics and packaging is 25%, and specialty industrial is a very stable part of the business, is a third of the company. But you know, in Q3, we talked about the industry kind of bouncing along the bottom, if you... semi CapEx. And you know, we'll have more discussion on our Q4 earnings call. But I think you know, if you read the industry consensus, if you will, I think folks are seeing the first half of 2024 kind of similar. And I think the big debate is the second half of 2024, and you know, how much it picks up or doesn't. But you know, some good signs, memory prices are improving. Utilization rates are improving.
So those are all great signs that eventually a recovery will occur. You know, I'd be the last person to try to predict when that is. Of course, we've been in this too long. We're always looking at triangulating everything our customers are saying, everything their customers are saying. We have more exposure now to packaging, even, and so we can kind of agglomerate a lot of different data points. But that doesn't take away from the need to be fast and pretty reactive from a manufacturing standpoint, and that's been our DNA, honed over sixty years, operating in a wildly cyclical business. It's always one foot on the brake and one foot on the pedal. Because when things turn up, they really turn up, and when things turn down, they turn down.
I think being able to react quickly is also part of our operational efficiency. It's also part of the DNA and the value that MKS brings to that industry.
You know, in addition to the way you discuss the business in specialty, industrial, and semi, and the packaging, you know, you provide some data as well on the legacy vacuum business, the photonics business. And one of the questions I've gotten is, you know, to see the margins get back to where they need to, you know, where they've been historically, what kind of level of quarterly revenues do you need to be at in the semi business? What's a good way to think about that?
Yeah. Well, you know, I think, Q3, we're at 47%, you know, gross margin. That was, that was good, good mix. And that was on a, you know, kind of a muted markets, right? Semiconductor was muted, electronics and packaging was muted. You know, I think, the legacy MKS business, the vacuum base, that used to be in the low 40s and kind of pushed up to the mid-40s. Newport, that company came in in the mid-40s to a little higher, and Atotech, gross margins are even better. And so when you combine the three of them, we're kind of in a downturn, kind of in the 45% gross margin level.
We did guide yesterday that we expect that to kind of tick up to that 47% range. And, you know, we're still—we're not guiding quarter to quarter on the annual, or the, that long-term model, but we're very comfortable with it. It's been, you know, well thought out, those gross margins. We did have some headwinds, certainly, in the last year or so, you know, there were supply chain constraints, and certainly, the cost of components rose quite significantly. We implemented price increases as well, but they take a little time to catch up. But I'd say we're probably done there, you know. You know, you can always, you know, do a little bit better, but I think, you know, that PPV headwind is, pretty much under control now, I think, for us, for sure.
Probably fair to say, as we get into more of a recovery, there should be some nice leverage in those areas of the business, right?
That's right. I mean, in terms of, you know, drop-through margin-
Yeah
you know, we've publicly said it's 50% drop-through gross margin, incremental increases in dollars, and about 40% on OI, right? And so we're in that 45% range now, at a kind of a run rate of $3.7, $3.8 billion, $3.6 billion, give or take. Remember, in 2022, Pro Forma was $4.5 billion in revenue.
You know, what I've been struck by is, the Materials Solutions Division, the MSD. And when you announced the Atotech acquisition, yeah, you're making a case for, you know, the margin profile of that business. I mean, I think, Q3, and, and Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah, I think you showed pretty almost 400 basis points of, improvement in Q3, 54% or so. And, I guess what I'm asking is, first of all, you know, can you talk about what's been driving that and that profile of that business?
Yeah.
Is it sustainable?
Yeah. Well, I think, so Atotech margins, there's two components to Atotech margin: there's chemistry
Right
and then there's equipment. And so equipment is lower gross margin, chemistry is higher. And so when there's more equipment, just so there's product mix. When there's more equipment, gr-
Yeah
average gross margin-
Yeah
might go a little, go down a little bit. There's also palladium pass-through pricing.
Right.
You know, and so palladium is a pass-through. And so the, you know, the, the gross margin dollars are the same, but the total revenue might be down, and that, that plays a little havoc with the gross margin. But I would say our Atotech business is in that 50% range, gross margin, on average. You know, so equipment can skew it a little up or down. Palladium can skew it up or down a little. Volume will certainly help as well. But I think it's really that kind of 50% or high 40s, yeah, range.
You know, I followed ESI, Electro Scientific Industries, when it was public and, you know, I don't recall seeing a downturn like we've seen in that business.
Right.
And, yeah, we keep waiting with, and part of it is the smartphone market.
Yeah.
But how are you thinking about that core Flex PCB drilling business?
Right.
And then I want to talk a little bit about the high-density interconnect-
Right
which previously, we did this last presentation, we heard-
Yeah
some interesting things about
Right
about where that market is going. So.
Yeah. So, you know, our market share in flex drilling using lasers, that was the Electro Scientific Industries', you know, market share leadership. That hasn't changed. But to your point, Jim, it's been about a 3-year CapEx, you know, winter there. But, you know, I think if you think about smartphones, when that comes back, the number of flex circuits in smartphones as well continues to increase. But also, think about wearables. You know, your AirPods, think how much flex circuits can there be in there. Well, there's a lot of AirPods, right? And there's actually flex circuits in there. So anything that you have to, you know, wear or it's small, like watches and things like that, have flex circuits in it. So we're really not worried about the flex market or our market share.
It's just that it'll come back when the industry comes back. And then to your point, HDI, you know, drilling using lasers for rigid boards, that's the opportunity for growth in ESI, Electro Scientific Industries. And that's where the synergy between Atotech and previous legacy MKS is. So when we go to Atotech's customers, we're not just offering 20 different types of chemistry steps. We're not just offering multiple types of chemistry equipment. We're now offering the laser tool to drill those holes. And if you were to ask Atotech, folks who've been there a long time, they would say, you know, they do a lot of these steps before the laser tool is used.
So they prepare the surface, they clean the surface, they put black oxide on top of the surface, so the laser beam doesn't bounce into your eyes, right? Absorbs. Then it gets sent to a laser tool. You drill the holes, then it gets sent back to Atotech. Let's clean it, let's put metal on it, and they said, "That was always the hole." So now, with the laser in, in MKS, in our tech centers, with the chemistry equipment, we're addressing 70% of all the steps needed to make an advanced package substrate.
And maybe for folks in the audience, on the flex drilling side, historically, MKS has had very strong-
Right
market share.
Right.
In HDI, with the Geode tool-
Yeah, yeah
you're competing against some couple of entrenched players in the market.
Yep.
How confident are you about what you're seeing in the market?
Yeah
in a position to really take share with, you know, benefiting as well from Atotech?
Yeah. Well, so I think that we would certainly have wanted to gain that HDI market share faster than we are, but we already have 100 tools out there in production using, making HDI boards for customers who are making money off the tool. So, you know, you don't get there by not having a tool that's pretty... You know, that works, right, in a manufacturing environment. And, you know, the HDI laser CapEx industry has been kind of in a downturn, too. So people aren't, you know, moving into new factories with lots of HDI tools. But we've talked about the design wins, and really, that's all you can do, is get the design win, and when those factories ramp, you'll get those HDI tools.
You know, and we've talked about a couple customers that we won, you know, won the, the POR for HDI drilling. These were with a Japanese customer, and as you pointed out, our two incumbent competitors are Japanese. So we won in Japan with a Japanese end user against two Japanese competitors. It's just a proof point that the tool is competitive. So now with Atotech, of course, that continues to be another area of synergy, obviously, we've talked about in terms of getting more design wins.
Yeah, the third leg of the MKS story has been the specialty industrial market. Yeah, not surprisingly, it doesn't get the same amount of attention from investors as Semi and the E&P segment, despite it being a pretty sizable part of your revenues. And, you know, I guess, what, about a third of the revenue?
Third, yep.
Yeah. So talk to us about what, John, what drives that part-
Yeah
- of the business. Is it mainly, you know, PMI, global-
Yeah
- macro and-
The way we think about it-
Yeah
is it's kind of a GDP plus-
Okay
conglomeration of several different kinds of markets. You've got industrial, you've got research, you've got defense, you've got life and health sciences, you've got a little bit of automotive through the Atotech acquisition. So, you know, the strategy's always been our investments in innovation in semi, in electronics and packaging. If someone can take that and use it into these niche applications in these various markets, we're happy to sell it to them. We're not doing a lot of extra R&D. We're not doing a lot of sales, extra sales, necessarily. And so it's really a great, stable part of our revenue that's highly profitable. And so that's been a great part of, you know, the stabilization of our company during a pretty, you know, long downturn for semi. Yeah.
I think most of the folks in the audience listening in are aware of the competitive environment around the legacy parts of the MKS business. Talk to us about the competitive position. You touched on it a little bit with Atotech, but just, if you could, in more, a little bit more detail.
Yeah. So, Atotech, you know, got two segments.
Right.
One is, electronics, and packaging, and that's two-thirds of Atotech. The other part is General Metal Finishing, more industrial, automotive, that's a third. And we have, you know, a couple competitors that we would say are global, if you will, and those are two American companies. And one competes more in the GMF side, one competes a little more on the electronics side. None of them have equipment. So we can go in with a chemistry plus equipment solution if the customer feels they need that, and now we can go in with a chemistry, chemistry equipment, and laser solution for the customer. I think the other set of competitors is. I would characterize them as, regional and with a much narrower portfolio.
So, as I said, there could be 20 different kinds of chemistries that are used in making a packaged substrate. Atotech has all of them. You know, and some competitors do these two, and some competitors do these other three, and some competitors do these two in Japan. Some do these two in Korea, and some do the other three in China. And so there's a bunch of smaller competitors there, but I think there are two main competitors that we would characterize as global, and we're the only company with equipment and chemistry.
It almost sounds a little bit like the semi market in a sense. You've got some rational competitors. You know, it's not a very fragmented market by any means.
Right, right. They, they are public companies-
Yeah
that have to answer to shareholders just like we do, and they would make rational investment decisions, and they're good competitors, you know. We certainly always respect our competitors, but, as I said, we're a market share leader-
Yeah
- in electronics.
So supply chain, you guys have had your challenges, as have other hardware companies. You know, as we get into a more normalized environment, a couple of things, you know, how do we think about the inventory destocking at some of these customers? You know, is the worst of that behind us? Or, you know, what's a good way to think about that?
Yeah, you're really talking about semiconductor equipment-
Yeah
Right? I would say that, you know, de-stocking has occurred throughout 2023. And, you know, I don't think it's done, but it's certainly every quarter gets better. And so, there's certain products of ours where, you know, we know that we're shipping as much as our customers are shipping, so there is no de-stocking left. There's still a couple here and there-
Mm-hmm
where there's probably a little more inventory. But, as I said, every quarter we get closer and closer to, you know, kind of a healthy supply and demand balance on the supply. On the inventory, sorry.
Okay. Debt, debt paydown, want to focus on that. High on the list of priorities, fair to say?
Yep.
You know, you had some challenges, as we all know, back in earlier in 2023, that resulted in that slipping a bit.
Yep.
You can talk to us a little bit about that, but remind us, you know, how you're thinking about debt paydown versus what you said, you know, a year or so ago.
Yeah
and or at, you know, at the end of last day.
Yeah. Yeah, no change.
Okay.
I mean, you know, deleveraging is our number 1, 2, and 3 priorities. You know, we've taken some actions, as you saw in our Q3 earnings call. We prepaid, you know, $100 million, another $100 million. We refinanced, got the interest rates down a little bit. And, you know, right now we had a public call about trying to, you know, get the term loan As off the books. And so even though we weren't really worried about covenants, we'd get those questions, so, you know, take that off the table. And then going forward, it's about cash generation, so getting our OpEx under control, you've seen it step down. Tax rates, you saw a significant improvement in Q3. We'll talk more about that in our Q4 earnings call.
You know, trying to get cash generation back up to, you know, that low- to mid-teens percentage. 2023 was an odd year. We had the ransomware-
Yeah
And then recovered from ransomware, so that's just a weird year to look at it. But longer term, our cash generation's been in that, you know, low- to mid-teens%. And of course, when revenue comes up, we have a good leverage there. And so, paying down and refinancing when opportunities come, those will be our priorities.
Okay. Yeah, the company shared some metrics at the Analyst Day that you hosted a while back. Has anything changed on the margin with respect to, you know, the business that you've seen through the first nine months that alters your view overall of the growth outlook in these parts of the business?
No, no, I think, you know, we're, we're even more bullish about advanced packaging. You know, I think when we announced the Atotech acquisition, you know, a lot of—we had a lot of questions. I'm sure you got a lot of questions, like, "What is that about this packaging?" And I think certainly the companies that were in packaging knew it. TSMC knows about packaging. They knew it back then. They built a fab on it, right? But not the rest of the industry, and I think, you know, recently, everybody understands now that packaging is crucial. I think, you know, the advent of AI, and NVIDIA is holding up a big, you know, processor board, right? It's always a board, multiple GPUs, CPUs, memory on top of it, connected with a substrate.
I think people are starting to really understand, oh, you can't have just chips. It's no longer... It's necessary, but not sufficient. You have to have the package. And so I think everybody understands about packaging now. Now, I would like to clarify, we still get a lot of confusion from some investors because the story is still relatively new. So when they talk about packaging, they're not sure which part of packaging-
Right
- that we play in. So I'll take TSMC's example, but there, there's an Intel example, a Samsung example, AMD example, but, you know, Intel has something called CoWoS, chip on wafer on substrate. So when companies talk about packaging, some of them are talking about chip on wafer, so HBM. That's a chip on a chip or a chip on a wafer, and there's some chemistry there that we play in. But what we're talking about is, once you've done that, it's the S, that substrate. That's where Atotech is number one, and that's where, as I said before, the features are getting smaller, the layers are getting more, and the size is getting bigger. And you can't have one without the other, right?
Once you package chips on top of chips, you've got to have them talk to each other, and that is enabled through that substrate. And so really, that's been a bit of a confusing, you know, part for our investors, 'cause, you know, our investors have been semi guys.
Right.
They understand semi, and we had to teach them about lasers. You helped us teach them about lasers, and photonics, and you know how that's really changing manufacturing. And then, of course, advanced electronics now and the packaging that goes with it. So chip on wafer on S, what we're really talking about is that substrate.
The target model. You've given some metrics with respect to revenue, gross margins, operating adjusted EBITDA margins.
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's a CFO transition-
Yeah
- taking place with the retirement of Seth-
Right
Seth Bagshaw, which is over April this year.
Yeah.
You know, how should we be thinking about how you're tracking to those targets longer term, again, as we start to emerge from this?
Yeah, you know, we don't really update that long-term model-
Yeah
Every quarter, for sure. But, you know, I would say this, that model was well thought out. You know, certainly with Seth's involvement, for sure. We thought about cycles in there-
Mm-hmm
Because we knew, you know, we, we would be you know, it'd be weird for us not to think about cycles. So we're thinking about long term there. And it was also, you know, thoughtful. You know, we didn't want to get over our skis in any kind of model and numbers. So I would say it was a thoughtful model, well thought out, taking into account cycles into it, and, you know, it's a 2010-2027 model. So, you know, I think, I'll leave it at that. It was, it's just-
Okay
Well thought out.
Okay, and we will end it there.
Great.
John, thank you.
Thank you very much, Jim. Thank you.