Good afternoon. My name is Chantal, and I'll be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the MC Materials 4th Quarter and Full Year 2020 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. Thank you.
At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to Martin Sheehan, Head of Investor Relations. Martin, please go ahead.
Thank you, operator, and good day, everyone. Welcome to NP Materials' 4th quarter 2020 earnings call. Materials. With me today are James Lutinski, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of NP Materials Michael Rosenthal, Chief Operating Officer Ryan Corbett, Chief Financial Officer and Sheila Bangalore, Chief Strategy Officer and General Counsel. Before we get to James and Ryan's opening remarks, I'd like to remind you that Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.
Forward looking statements are predictions, projections and other statements about future events NPE materials that differ materially from forward looking statements in this communication. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to materially differ section in our recent SEC filings. During the call, management will also discuss certain non GAAP financial measures, which we believe to be useful in evaluating NP Materials' Materials' operating performance. These measures should not be considered in isolation or as a substitute for MP Materials' financial results prepared in accordance with GAAP. A reconciliation of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures is available in our current report on Form 8 ks filed today and can be found on our website, investors.
Npmaterials.com. With that, I'll turn the call over to Jim. Jim? Thanks, Martin, and thanks everyone for joining us
strong 4th quarter results capping a milestone year for NP. 2nd, I'll update you on our Stage 2 optimization plan in Mountain Pass. Starting with the financial highlights. In the Q4, we generated strong production volumes as well as records for both shipments and revenues. These results show that we are clearly enjoying the benefit of strong pricing, which has continued to rise post year end, but we are also demonstrating operating leverage on a unit production cost basis.
You can see the combined effect of these trends and the significant margin expansion we've reported for the Q4. MP's future. As you know, we completed a go public transaction in November, which gave us a fortress balance sheet as we execute on Phase 2 and beyond. We also took important steps to scale the company as we prepare to become a leading global producer of separated rare earths, Materials, both on-site and in building out our management team. We currently have over 300 employees across our engineering and site personnel as well as important public company functions across finance, legal, communications and other key areas.
And finally, We have now implemented important design improvements that we believe will significantly de risk Stage 2. Essentially, MT Materials. We invested further in the front engineering stage of our Stage 2 project to improve our processes and circuit design. Through these efforts, We believe that our technical team identified ways to improve product yield, expected first pass on spec production rates and reagent usage efficiency, including recycling. Importantly, I'm very pleased to tell you that due to these achievements, we believe we no longer need to restart the chlor alkali facility to achieve the 2023 expected operating model we outlined last year on an apples to apples basis.
This is because we believe we found ways to permanently reduce the reagent usage per ton of OREO. We think this is a significant derisking of our Stage 2, though we still remain maniacally focused on the key work streams of commissioning the roasting circuit, product finishing assets, salt crystallizer and other site upgrades. I will walk through more details on this in a moment. Quarter in 2020 year over year growth in production. Importantly, while we've increased shipment volumes by 20% in the quarter and 40% for the full year, Materials.
Concentrate pricing in the 4th quarter increased 70%, demonstrating that the demand for NDPR remains very strong. NPE. And you can also see here the production cost improvement I highlighted a moment ago. For the full year, we've reduced production costs on a per metric ton basis by nearly 28%. As we move through our Stage 2 and contemplate future initiatives, including evaluating heavy tariffs, moving downstream into magnets and other potential initiatives.
We believe the progress and rapid learning we're achieving today will lead to significant additional opportunities to increase profitability and cash As we've said to many of you, 2021 is about execution on Stage 2. For those who aren't as familiar with our strategy, of these critical elements in the United States of America. Upon expected completion of this project in 2022, we will be scaling toward material run rate production of more than 6,000 metric tons of NDPR. As we stated during the going public process last year, We expect 2023 will be the 1st full year of production at these levels. Keep in mind though that the 2023 target of $250,000,000 in normalized EBITDA that we material.
The line last year assumed a spot NDPR price of $70 per kilo. NDPR spot today is actually roughly $88 So with that background, I'm pleased to report that Stage 2 remains on track. Long lead equipment is arriving on-site, our fixed Materials and Construction is underway. That said, with our unwavering owner operator mentality, estimated Stage 2 project cost back in July. They consisted of a total of $200,000,000 in 2 primary parts.
The first $170,000,000 related to mainly reinstituting the roasting step and adding a salt crystallizer, change since we first announced those plans. We also had a Stage 2b, which was focused on the restart of the core alkali facility for managing reagents used in the refining This project was to consume the remaining $30,000,000 of the Stage 2 capital costs. The successful completion of Stage 2 construction and core alkali were the execution drivers needed for us to achieve the normalized 2023 EBITDA target that we shared with you. NPE material per ROE metric ton produced as well as improve upon our already strong environmental profile. And we no longer need to restart chlor alkali NPE material.
We will now begin the Q1 of 2019. We will now
begin the Q1 of 2019. We will now
begin the Q1 of 2019. Reducing our original expectations for operating costs in Stage 2. Restarting the chlor alkali facility in the future remains an option for us, NPE material. So one might now analyze it as a separate and new incremental potential high return investment opportunity that could further enhance shareholder value. Restarting this facility in the future means we could potentially have more accessory agents to sell into the open market driving an improved ROI.
Therefore, when you consider the rapid cost inflation that we are seeing throughout the economy. This is particularly acute for infrastructure materials like steel, lumber and concrete. NPE Material and Concrete is up 30%. As we execute, we hope to experience the upside leverage that could come from rising commodity crisis against an in place multibillion dollar and difficult to replace asset base. I would also add that this is particularly powerful to consider in light of what we believe is the beginning stages of a demand driven commodity cycle.
Whatever the market thought new supply would cost,
Thanks, Jim, and hello, everyone. Jim already covered a few of the financial headlines, and we have all of the details in our press release. NPE. So I'll give an overview of how we think about our financial results and share some thoughts on how we're looking at 2021. We delivered impressive growth in Q4 and for the full fiscal year.
Jim spoke about the strong demand and pricing environment, which drove the doubling of our revenues in the quarter and the 83% growth for the full year. NPE material. And although we can't predict pricing or shipping schedules quarter to quarter, we expect to continue to sell through all of our production. In addition to the price and sales side of the equation, our adjusted EBITDA benefited from the continued excellent work Michael and his team are doing to improve our processes, Materials, mainly due to these process improvements, which drove a higher average concentrate grade and higher mineral recoveries compared to NPE material. Put another way, our improvements are generating higher percentages of rare earth oxides and concentrate and the Q1 of 2019.
And while we'll be seeing the full quarter impact of these costs moving forward, We feel good about production costs and our margin outlook. Lastly, on production costs, although down year over year, supply chain and ensure a sustainable U. S.-based source of these critical materials. We embarked on a full scale reagent pilot from mid October Materials and it was an important achievement for the company. Given the supply chain issues we have all seen in industries like semiconductors, Pricing for these reagents was slightly higher per unit of contained REO, but the tremendous success of the pilot as evidenced in our record production So although costs were up slightly from Q3 on a per unit basis, the reduction in risk to our stage 1 process was well worth the investment.
Stage 1 process is generating free cash flow for the business. In the appendix section of the slides, you'll see a detailed walk of how we get from adjusted EBITDA to our reported operating cash flow and then our reported free cash flow. So looking at Slide 9 specifically, on the left side of chart. You see our free cash flow for the year was negative $19,000,000 But if we adjust for our offtake pay down, the CapEx spent on our Stage 2 optimization and related projects, as well as deal expenses and one time items. Our Stage 1 process Materials and Exchange Commission generated approximately $34,000,000 of normalized free cash flow in 2020.
That's a very strong 25% free cash flow margin for the year. Keep in mind that the offtake balance is essentially debt. But per U. S. GAAP, the impact of the pay down of that agreement cash flow instead of financing in the cash flow statement as might be expected, which is why we believe it's relevant to add back to our free cash flow for our comparable metric.
Positioning us very well as we ramp up work on Stage 2. In addition, the balance on our offtake agreement was reduced to $71,000,000 in the quarter. Regarding our share count, the earn out investing shares from our business combination all vested in the quarter, resulting in approximately 171,000,000 shares outstanding maturity of the Fortress Value IPO. We've illustrated our fully diluted share count with the warrant impact captured via the treasury stock method on the table on Slide In summary, we feel very good about where we stand financially as we embark on stage 2, which as Jim noted will now be a $210,000,000 NP Materials. Net headline cost with the design improvements built in.
So we are more than adequately funded for Stage 2, while Materials and flexibility, particularly as we see opportunities to pursue our mission of fully restoring the supply chain to the United States. Material and should pricing hold, we are set up for a very good 2021. We continue to produce at near record levels Phase 1 process. We expect to continue our trend of per unit cost improvement, but expect to reinvest those gains in headcount growth as we prepare for stage 2 and grow our corporate NPEAR functions. Some of you might also be wondering about shipping given reports of congestion at the Los Angeles and Long Beach ports.
I'd remind you there that We are an outbound shipper, so we do not believe we will see any material cost impact from what you're reading about, though general lumpiness and shipment timing materialization as always possible given the overall congestion of the port. As for the Stage 2 capital spend, the ramp in capital cost is essentially beginning now with the majority of that $210,000,000 spend occurring in late 2021. Now, I'd like to turn it back to Jim to wrap up.
Thanks, Ryan. I would like to take a moment to remind everyone of the extraordinary opportunity unfolding for MP. When we founded the company in 2017, we saw tremendous potential in Mountain Puffs given the incredibly unique nature of the asset and its importance to electrification and supply chain reliability. We were fortunate though
to have a few tough years to help us build confidence in our mission
Just since our listing on the NYSE in November, it feels like the theme of electrification and decarbonization has accelerated even faster NPE. Announcing plans to accelerate the transition away from combustion engines. Maybe it can be best summed up by a quote the other day from Herbert Diess, Here at home, more and more states have adopted California's aggressive clean vehicle standards with several more expected to follow. But of course, I could just remind you about what's happening in the capital markets. From cars and trucks to planes and air taxis or from multiple battery technology plays, Materials focused around auto electrification now exceeds $1,000,000,000,000 and that doesn't even include the other $1,000,000,000,000 plus from the legacy OEMs.
We see a pathway of literally 100 of 1,000,000,000 invested globally over the next 5 or so years and then likely into the 1,000,000,000,000 beyond that. Like any great boom, whether it was the railroads, the ICE automobile or the Internet, youthful industrial excitement and unending possibility MP. And this one is no different. We believe MP serves that kind of role. Speaking of BlueJeans, there are a few areas of overwhelming bipartisan consensus in America right now, but supporting resilient Domestic supply chains is certainly one of them.
Our mission is to restore the full rare supply chain to the United States and to do so sustainably. We are working in parallel on our longer term approach for Stage 3. Ultimately, the main use case for RERUS is for magnets and the size of that opportunity is enormous. So we are profitable with a strong balance sheet. We are the most environmentally responsible company in the rare earth industry, and we are the only scaled Western supplier of a precious commodity that is critical to electrification, decarbonization and national security.
Our first question comes from Carlos De Alba with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. So a couple of questions, if I may. The first one is, So you expect basically modest volume growth this year with a stable unit cost. Do you foresee any seasonality, materiality throughout the quarters.
Maybe as you ramp up more production in the second half or fourth quarter, the unit cost will be lower than they will be in the first half. That will be the first question. And then the second one, if you could comment please on the rebates that you are getting from the The change in the tariff rebate, if you can comment, when do you see that finalizing? And then in terms of the stockpiles sales, also how you see that throughout 2021?
Thank you very much. Sure. Hey, Carlos. Hey, Brian, why don't you take both of those?
Sure. Hey, Carlos. So I'd start on your first one in terms of seasonality. I wouldn't expect there to be significant seasonality from a production basis. I think your view is probably correct in terms of the modest volume growth really taking place in the back half of the year.
From a shipment standpoint, as I mentioned, that can be lumpy quarter to quarter. And so it's tough to give any great color there. I think Over the course of the year, we certainly intend to be selling through 100% of our production. But The individual shipments over the course of each quarter can move around a bit. On the tariff question, The tariff rebate in 2020 was really a one time item.
This reflected March of 2020 and related to sales in the Q1 and in prior years. There may be material. Some small amount of remaining rebate left, but not material and not anything that we could predict with certainty coming into 2021. The last piece on stockpile sales, you'll see, I mean, those are incredibly small, a couple of $100,000 a year and relate to legacy stockpiles as you mentioned. I think we'll probably continue NPE material to sell out that inventory over time, but not a material driver for us.
Perfect. Thank you very much, Jim and Brian. Just maybe If I could add one more. On the royalty expense to SNR, so if I understood correctly from what I read in the release, NPE material. The amount of around 450,000, 440,000 tons that we saw in the Q4, that was the last We should not be seeing this any further or any more in the results, right, from the Q1 on?
Yes, Carlos, that's right. There was no payment from the company to SNR in closing The combination not just reflects bringing the SNR mineral royalty interest onto the balance sheet of the combined company. Materials
Corp.
NPE. Your next question comes from the line of David Deckelbaum with Cowen. Your line is open.
I was hoping that you could you highlighted the fact that a third party research firm points to NP and Mountain Pass as the lowest cost
Remember that obviously today we sell a Stage 1 product, so we don't currently produce NDPR. The research was saying that when we're complete with Stage 2, material. We'll be and that's when we're actually selling NDPR. But Ryan, do you want to comment on the model and anything you want to say on that front?
Sure. Yes. I'd say the right way to think about it is we highlighted, we think With the plan that we laid out from the design improvements today, we stand behind our view of the EBITDA guidance we provided for 2023. And so if you just do the math on sort of what we had provided during our go public transaction and just divide that cost structure, NPE. The implied cost structure by the total NDPR we expect to produce that's in the very high 20s
Materials. You talked about getting to that run rate of just over 6,000 tonnes per annum once Stage 2 was up and running and that would be full run rate achieved in 2023. How long do you expect to take to ramp up the capacity from sort of first separation in terms of
Yes. So we haven't said anything specifically about what that ramp is going to look like. What we've said is that assume that 2022 will be a year that consists of that completion, the ramp, etcetera.
The one other thing I'd add there, David, is obviously we'll continue to sell our concentrate product that is not being consumed by the stage 2 ramp up process. So obviously, you see the results this quarter
Appreciate that. The last one for me is just you highlighted the core alkali Materials sort of capital opportunity. When do you think that you'll have a decision around whether you want to pursue that Materia. So we don't have
a timetable on that. I think The important thing to realize is the substantial progress that we've made with respect to these design improvements where basically we believe that material. So we think that that's a pretty exciting achievement. With that, we preserve We haven't stated any public view as to kind of when and how we would do that other than to say that The way you should think about that is it will be a it is now a separate potentially high return on capital event that we'll analyze like any investment opportunity.
Absolutely. Appreciate the time guys. I'll give
you a call.
Yes, of course. Thank you.
Materials. Your next question comes from the line of Chris Terry with Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Thank you. Hi, Jim, Ryan, Michael. I have a few questions. I'll just maybe do them 1 at a time. 1st one just on the reagents, sounds like an exciting opportunity you have there.
Just wondering if you could talk a little bit NPE materials. How are you doing that? Is that the process itself is the same as it was and you just NPE. And that's where the actual savings and reagents come about.
Yes. So, Chris, thank you for we'll give you're getting Michael a chance to chime in here.
It's a good question. I guess we mentioned in previous presentations that we saw that there are areas for continued improvement in how we operated NPE materials. Our deep understanding of the previous generations of Mountain Pass operations as well as certain industry Materials and Technology and Technology and Technology and Technology and Technology. So earlier last year, we decided to extend the front end engineering NPE material in order to spend more time on R and D and pilot work before finalizing our process flow and equipment list. NPE materials.
So ultimately, we developed enough confidence in some of these developments to incorporate that into some design changes in our final process and equipment list. NPE. So some of those some examples of that are on the roasting and leaching processes, we work to optimize the roasting and leaching conditions to improve the NPE recovery, maximize serum removal and minimize reagent usage. On the leach side itself, NPE material to minimize the amount of RO water we had to use and minimize the amount of reagents to use through improved recycling. NPE.
On the extraction side, we made certain improvements to the processes to reduce reagent use and maximize the production of NP Materials and then on the finishing, we improved reagent We also made improvements to the finishing process to increase 1st pass production rates 1st pass on spec production rates. NPE material, and this includes sort of enhanced blending capability to blend the various stages of production as well as increased storage to enable greater resiliency and flexibility of production. So all these things contributed to what Jim said about reducing reagent usage, material, which also reduces the amount of spent brine that is produced, some of which would have to otherwise be neutralized,
Thanks, Michael. Appreciate the extra color. Yes, a couple of others I just wanted to ask. Do you think Maybe by the middle of the year or some point early in the second half of the year, you'll be in a position to maybe give more specific timing about The start up of Stage 2 in 2022, or how are you thinking about when you'll provide that update?
So, great question. We totally understand that people obviously want to get NPE material. To give you something specific other than to say that I understand it's top of mind and investors want to know how we're progressing. And We certainly as a team, we are execution focused. So we recognize that people want to judge us and measure us against what we say, and obviously, we want to do that as well.
But that might not be a satisfying answer, but we'll do our best to tell you as much as we can throughout the year
Okay. And then just moving down a stage to NPE material. If you can do that, but are you thinking about that still you chip away at it while Stage 2
NPE. So Chris, I'm going to give you a really unsatisfying answer unfortunately, which is We don't have any Stage 3 updates today. You can expect us to be very opportunistic. So we have a number of people and we will be opportunistic.
Okay. Okay. And Yes. The last one for me just relates to the market. I guess, just keen to hear your views on recent price moves in NDPR that we've seen since the start of the year, the update from the China production quotas and just any color you can provide in general, particularly on the NDPR side.
Thanks.
Maybe everyone can chime in here because obviously when it comes to commodities prices, who knows. What I would say is that our belief certainly our interpretation of what we're seeing on the ground, so to speak. There were also, around that same time of the close you referenced, there were also some headlines very senior Chinese growth officials talking about how they believe prices to be too low, given the environmental impact Messing up the paraphrasing. But, so we again, as I've fairly clearly stated, Who knows what the next month or 2 or look like in the near term? I am fundamentally of the belief that If you look around the world and see that we're 3% penetrated just in electric vehicles and we are going to 90 plus percent over the next few decades and maybe we're going to get there pretty fast given the amount of capital that has been forming in the space.
You can do the math on the demand. And then I think that the other incremental piece here that we tried to touch upon this during online. These are to do this right to be an economically viable participant in this space, It's a multi $1,000,000,000 investment and that's if you have the ore body. As you know, we have a 7 plus percent ore body relative to kind of some of these other projects you might see out there in some of the junior mining or other spaces, They're typically around 1% or 2%, if that. And so again, it's just a look through across if you had unlimited capital and you had A permit and a plan and a viable ore body, sort of none of which really exists A massive investment.
And again, I think given what we're seeing in materials costs and given the expertise required, I do think Nothing that will be playing on the next month or 2. So hopefully that's sort of a long winded way
Thank you. Yes, that's helpful. I think that's it for me. Thanks guys. All the best.
Thank you, Chris.
We will take one more set of questions from Ben Kallo with Baird. Your line is open.
When stage 2, going to
be first. I was just joking.
I was going to make some joke like I haven't seen you in Asia since.
No, let me talk about the downstream, I think, because I think that maybe it would be helpful to figure NPE material. How fragmented the market is and what that really means and then how close to the customer that is and then how you think that
When you say the downstream, you're referring to separated, So stage 2, right? Stage 3. Yes. Oh, stage 3. Well, I'm going to give you the same unsatisfying answer that I gave Chris, maybe I'll say with a little more gusto.
But, we don't have any Stage 3 updates at this time, but you can expect us to be extremely opportunistic. So I'll leave it at that on stage 3, but it might be helpful.
I was asking if I didn't take out the market, like how fragmented it is Or just in general and what that does for pricing.
Oh, I see.
Yes. Well, I think that here's what you here's The answer to what you're asking, even if you're not specifically asking it, which is that we have to remember again, Certainly, the downstream today, the magnet industry is controlled in China. But the reality is that as we NPE materially into you heard me quote the CEO of Volkswagen, you certainly see what's going on globally with investment. It's unlikely that There's going to continue to be a single point of failure in the supply chain in areas where there are viable alternatives. And so we believe that we're positioned really well material.
And so the reality is that the magnet business today is mainly concentrated in China. There's a little bit in Japan. But our belief is that we will be part of that's obviously core to our mission is that we will be part of the shaping of that MT Materials. I would like to put out slides on this of what you think the magnet business is today for EVs. If it's 3% penetrated and it goes to 30%, That's a 10 bagger roughly, maybe obviously there'll be some scaling, but it's still it's a huge opportunity.
And so we plan on being And so the other thing I would say is as far as the magnets, you definitely there's a variety of customers as the industry stands today. The OEMs can be involved, the motor makers can be involved or the magnet producers. And so this downstream supply chain, there are different parties involved in it, but we certainly know who the players are. We don't need a huge sales force to go out and talk to these folks. They know who we are.
We know who they are. And so I think that it's just another one of these things. Right now, if you think about the legacy OEMs, They're thinking about evolving their business. They haven't gotten to some of these other issues because they're literally drinking from a fire hose. There are so many issues When you're talking about this scale of GDP that is transforming, there are just so many issues and it creates chaos, right?
And that's you see capital formation in many companies and The good news is that there's going to be some winners, there's going to be some losers. We don't need to Take an extraordinary amount of risk, and we don't need to take over the entire industry. All we need to do is be thoughtful about how we invest and execute, NPE. And it's just a pretty extraordinary business opportunity. And so again, I know it's not a super satisfying answer, but the truth is, is It's a supply chain that doesn't exist yet and we believe we're going to be part of creating it.
Thank you. And Dan,
this is
This is
Ryan. I'd just add real quick on that. A couple of thoughts. Adding to what Jim was saying in terms of we don't need To take a ton of share, I mean, we get asked a lot about the magnet intensity for electric vehicle and all those things. And certainly, you see in our Materials.
We think that the EV piece of the market is growing incredibly fast. But take the entire magnet market, we think capacity Since we've been at this and had conversations with customers, the thing that has surprised me is the amount of time that we have very, very downstream customers, all the way down to the OEMs of various types of things, not just electric vehicles, now coming hand in hand with magnet makers to us trying to understand, hey, if I find this contract for magnets, Is there going to be NDPR there to back it up? And so I think it's a really critical differentiator being vertically integrated And something that really no one else can do. And so I think that will be the secret sauce, if you will. And to your point on volatility in rare earth prices, I think you've seen if you sort of model over time Materials.
What margins in the magnet business have done versus rare earth prices. Magnet makers have pretty consistently been able to pass through with some lag For sure, but I think our fundamental view as well though is we certainly are not going to subsidize material. One piece of our business for the benefit of the other. I think we feel very strongly that they need to stand alone and have their own economic returns and we'll proceed with that view. But the reason we feel good and are interested in the State Street opportunity is NPE.
And given our view of the scarcity, if rare earth prices continue to go up, our Stage 2 business will continue to benefit and we do not think that will come at the expense of a potential Stage 3. And so I'd say that, that at a high level is sort of just how we think about
Thank you. That's very good. Maybe two questions and one for you, Ryan, first. Just the leverage ratios that you're comfortable with going down and the structure. And then, James, for you, one of the benefits you have many employees that You guys are very successful, and I think it's a huge benefit.
And how do you
On leverage, I feel very strongly that the capital structure of a company needs to be appropriate for the business As you've probably heard me say ad nauseam, we want the leverage to be in the price, Yes, not on the balance sheet, so to speak. And I would say though that remember that we are our Stage 1 business is generating cash. We obviously believe that our Stage 2 business will then be a significant uplift. And so there's no doubt that we Materia. We are large shareholders ourselves.
We care and we want to make sure that we create long term value. We're not looking to do anything too short sighted. So again, The capital structure needs to be appropriate for the business and so hopefully that helps you on the leverage front. And then on the employee front, it's a great question and actually it's an extension of what I just said, which is our operator culture. One thing that Matera.
Opportunity for every single employee to be an owner. Everyone got granted 100 shares across it doesn't matter again, it doesn't matter your job, whether you're A mine worker, a maintenance, a receptionist doesn't matter. And so our intention as a company, as a culture So far an outstanding result. And we are going to continue to work the way we always have to create a lot of value here. And It's top of mind.
It's really important. And I think particularly when you have an industrial enterprise that's so reliant on your human capital, You need to treat them like owners. You need to treat them and make sure that they care. And I think that that really pays dividends for shareholders distinction or pointing fingers of us versus them kind of mentality. And so hopefully we will continue to