All right, thanks everybody. So, you know, welcome to day three of the Wells Fargo Healthcare Conference. I'm Tim Daley, Life Science Tools, Diagnostics, and Pharma Services analyst here at Wells Fargo. We are pleased to have Inotiv here with us. We've got Bob Leasure, CEO, as well joined by Beth Taylor, CFO, here. And, you know, lots going on, lots of activity. You know, just wanted to kind of start with some stuff that I guess came out post-quarter from you guys. You know, first off, in the 10-Q, there's a reference to a new investigation with the SEC. We've talked about this, a lot of investors are asking about it. Just, you know, how does that differ from the DOJ investigation? You know, any thoughts on that? Is this new material?
Just, you know, kinda help us understand that dynamic.
Good morning. The SEC request we did comply with. I think they're just doing their job. I think the indictment in Cambodia indicated that there are questions about payments being made between a Cambodian supplier and government officials, and I think alluded to that, and I believe people in our industry may have gotten this request. I think it's the same. They're looking at the same data that the, I believe, DOJ's been looking at for three or four years. So of course, we complied, and I don't know of any. Nothing else has come out of it. I just think that they're doing their job, and we did our job and complied, and they're gonna look at the same data that the DOJ looked at.
All right. Well, that's a helpful update. And then something else, excuse me. Something else that came up was, you guys recently put out a press release, I think, on the 29th, that you completed the sale of the Israel business. So I think you got $1 million up front, $2 million future payments, kind of one-year anniversary, two-year anniversary split. And then you also got ownership of the diet manufacturing facility, which you were previously leasing from. So, you know, I think that's about 10% of revenues overall. And just, you know, how does that dynamic change things now, owning a facility, divesting the actual Israel operations, if we're to think of kind of operating expenses on that basis, take one in, add one in?
Israel was a little bit out of where we were doing business in Europe and the U.S., and it's a little bit difficult to get our cash out of Europe or out of Israel at times. So we thought this was something that was initiated even before we bought Envigo, and the contract had been signed. We did amend the contract in the last several months to be able to acquire the Wisconsin facility, and I think the Wisconsin facility was a really important move for us. That is our diet business. The diet business is significant to us. We've been able to turn that around this year and make a significant amount of money, and there's a lot of special equipment in that facility.
That lease was gonna be up in a year or two. So to get control of that and be able to own that and control our destiny in that business, so that was very important because it's now become a much more profitable place than it was before. And then we can reallocate those dollars back into the U.S. and use those as we need.
Okay. So, you know, if we think about the diet business, I know, you know, just general care for models, is as the prices go up, you know, a lot more care required, a lot more focus on the health and well-being of the models. Obviously, that's always been a focus, but just given the cost of, you know, risk of loss, if you will. You know, what's the margin in that business, and kind of what's the growth in that business? Is that in line with, you know, your models business, or how should we think about that?
Our diet business is a little less than 10% of our overall sales, you know, about $50 million this year. It's in our RMS segment, and when we acquired the company, it was a pretty flat producer of margins. And now we're probably moving before SG&A up in cash flowing closer to the high teens to low 20s in that business. And so we've been able to make some differences over the last year in terms of how we operate, in terms of transportation, and we've also, I think, probably grown it a little over 10% last year. So I think it's an area we can continue to grow, and we can invest...
Now that we own that facility, we can invest in that facility, but I was hesitant to make investments in that facility without owning it.
Got it. Okay, well, that's helpful. So, you know, another thing is I just updated the, you know, the monthly import data. You know, Mauritians were the only ones coming in in July, and, you know, down month-over-month. Just kind of thinking about, I guess, you know, this is something I talk to a lot of people about, the global supply diversification out of Cambodia. Like, how, you know, where do you guys pull, you know, where do you, I guess, relationships with breeders or farms or brokers in various countries? I know you made a comment on the last earnings call that, you know, you know, Cambodians are only for the US, Europe, maybe Vietnamese and things.
Like, can you help us understand the global trade and, you know, why you can't kind of reallocate some other countries to the US? Why, you know, Cambodians can't go somewhere else that's more open, if you will?
Yes. Well, first of all, we do import into the U.S. still from Vietnam and from Mauritius. We don't import anywhere out of Cambodia right now. So we're not using Cambodians in Europe, and we're not using them in the U.S. or any other part of the world. We're also using Vietnamese and Mauritians, and we're importing those into Europe. And I think that's, you know, until we can get further guidance, that's the way we're going to continue. We do have veterinarians and business people, and even in the last month or six weeks and they travel throughout Vietnam and Cambodia, Mauritius, Africa, China, and other countries in order to understand what the other farms are doing and who has what health and safety records, and what who it is we may be able to work with.
And then we do have contracts with multiple farms, even in China, China we're to open. So, which, you know, we have looked at much of the, you know, what's going on, and we've, and I've said in some cases, we've even doubled the quarantine periods at the moment, and before it ships, we double it when it is received. We're being very careful. Our vets are there actually overseeing and administering tests themselves. Got a very dedicated group of veterinarians we've built over the last couple of years, and it's been very resourceful for us. Then those contracts that we have with the suppliers may limit where we can, where we can ship those monkeys, what countries can go where.
And then countries have some restrictions of where, what they would like, and what they would like to control. So, we try to live within all those rules and restrictions that they have and continue to develop relationships throughout the world. And, you know, I think at this point, for us, the key is being agile. And, we've, I believe over the last year, have been able to demonstrate that we can be a very agile company, and we can, we can do fine if there were half as many NHPs coming in this country. And, I, I think it's a significant industry issue, but as far as our business issue, we've been able to adapt and, of course, we can more than protect our discovery and safety assessment business.
Okay. Yeah, you mentioned China a few times. That's interesting, given everyone's kind of been de-emphasizing, you know, that source of supply. Just curious, you know, there's a preclinical CRO that recently took a big impairment on their NHP inventory in China. You know, we've seen the slowdown in the pipelines in China, both from a, you know, early stage and late stage and even production, significantly so, recently. So just curious, you know, is there any impetus, given the slowdown in China, to start, you know, opening up or is this truly, you know, the government's top-level type of geopolitical stalemate?
I think, again, it's the key for us to be agile and have our relationships. And I believe what the farms and the people in China are saying is that they really don't have clear guidance from the government, and nobody wants to be the first to try it out. And I think there are two things: What does the government say? And then, what do the different provinces say? And then, what do the people do? And I think you've got to really evaluate all of those issues. I don't think anything. At this point, nothing would surprise me, and that's one thing I've learned in this business over the last 18 months. So I think we need to be ready for either of the occasions.
But I'm not aware of anything as we speak right now that says China's opening.
Okay. Got it. Got it. That's helpful. And then, you know, before we start going into the other segments, just kind of final thing here. You know, going through the court documents of the, you know, Masphal Kry case, it's clear that, you know, Fish and Wildlife may have gone a bit out of their purview. You know, Operation Long Tail , all the kind of claims that are being made by Masphal Kry's defense attorneys. You know, what our view has been, basically, when this gets resolved or the case concludes, that's when Fish and Wildlife becomes more productive and maybe starts talking about genetic testing, all the potential, you know, pipelines, workflows. You know, how should we think about this case outcomes?
Like, if he walks, is that, like, what does Fish and Wildlife do at that point? Like, do they become more-
Yeah.
Does the same thing happen if it concludes that he goes, you know, to prison or if he walks, like?
Yeah. Well, again, I got to compliment you on your research. You get a lot of detail, and I know you've obviously read the case, and it makes for interesting reading at the very least. But I can't comment on that, but it is... Yeah, I was a little bit shocked when I read some of that.
Yeah.
I think we got to be ready for all the above. We're not importing from Canada, right, or Cambodia right now. We have no plans to import until this is resolved. We still talk to our Cambodian suppliers and are very open with them. To predict what's gonna happen if or if there's not a hearing, I think for us, we just got to be ready for both. But it's, yeah, it's not clear what is taking place. I do think U.S. Fish and Wildlife will have increasing pressure and probably will, at some point, want to provide a solution.
But how we implement that solution as an industry and how they implement it in the testing, if they really choose to do testing and have labs, you know, I've said openly that it'd be interesting if they, I don't know that anybody would ship without creating a duplicate lab and knowing what data that's, they're gonna be looking at before they come over here. So how does all that work out? I think could take a little bit of time. It's hard to imagine it's gonna flip a switch and happen tomorrow. And then once that happens, and wherever we import from, they have to prepare for shipment, they have to go through quarantine, then they ship, then they go through a quarantine period over here.
So the influx of a lot of new NHPs coming to the market is not gonna happen overnight. We're gonna see it coming. We'll be able to prepare, and, and I think people, you know, are looking at that right now, wondering what's gonna happen in the first quarter.
Mm-hmm.
... eight months ago, we heard a lot of people say, this should be resolved by the, you know, middle of—I think the first trial was set for February. They thought we'd be, have a solution by the summer, and then it got moved to June. So they thought we'd have a solution by Q4, and then it got moved to September, and they're still hoping to have a solution by Q4, now it's in October. We still don't have a solution, and pretty soon the end of the year is going to be here. And I think what we're looking at is like, "Okay, let's have two plans. One if it opens, one if it doesn't. We'll, we'll be fine either which way.
Okay, that's helpful. And you know, on the testing solution, that was a lot of activity, a lot of interest. Everybody's trying to figure out what you know, you guys were doing, what competitors were doing, what the market was going to settle on, what the government wanted. You know, how has that been progressing? You know, like, I know you started back in, I think, almost like right when it all kind of came to a head. You were really boots on the ground, working internally, externally.
We have. We spent a lot of time with academic and with different labs, looking at how we can do kinship testing or genetic testing or. And some of the testing doesn't require blood to be transported, which require CITES. And what can we do to really improve the knowledge that these are purpose-bred, and what data could be out there? So we have those ideas. Nobody's really asking us, and it really doesn't matter what our ideas are. We just want to be educated, and then we will do what we can internally to make sure that we have the best data and the best knowledge before making decisions with the farms that we're working with. But we also expect U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at some point may have some guidance.
Okay. All right, that's helpful. All right, so thinking here, you know, I guess about stepping back, you know, into the safety assessment business. You know, DSA, obviously, discovery was soft. You know, does that remain soft? Is that... You know, we've been seeing maybe some green shoots in biotech funding or at least stability there, acquisitions happening, by large pharma, maybe later in the pipeline. But it does seem like there's money, and less volatility. So are you guys seeing, you know, discovery improving sequentially? And thoughts on that side of the business.
On the discovery side, I think we did see a weakness over the last two quarters, possibly. I think we alluded to that on the phone.
Mm-hmm
-that on our call is that I was a little surprised by some of the weakness in the discovery business. We built some capacity there, and we have room to grow that business. I think there were a couple things that have maybe changed that equation for us in it going into this quarter, where it appears to be stronger. One, last February, March, I talked about we added a lot more scientific engagement to our sales force and added salespeople, and that seems to have worked for us. We didn't have as big a discovery sales presence as we had in the past. We do now. It seems to be paying dividends, and so I think we'll continue to invest in that strategy-
Okay
-going forward. Second of all, I think that the biotech funding could have been part of that. You know, we can't quantify that, but the bio-- you know, that early-stage discovery, that's an easy place for people to stop and not invest. Versus if you're in a safety assessment, you think you have a molecule that's going to work, you're going to want to try to get it to market, try to get it to clinic. And if clinical work, it's going to try to get to the market. I don't... You know, that's-- you don't want to stop something that's working, I don't think. So I think we saw some of that.
Then the third piece that we did some internal analysis on is that we have 15%-20% of our discovery business was with Silicon Valley Bank. And in June and July, we had several clients that had to make sure that they could get to their liquidity and set up new revolvers. And I think that that had a little bit of a hiccup in the system for about 6 weeks, while they went through that with some of our customer base, and they had to be patient while they could get that fixed, some of the banking situations that were occurring.
So, now we see that's reversed a little bit this quarter, and, you know, right now we'll just see how that trend continues. But I'm optimistic. We've done a much better job selling there. We have some capacity, and those are very accretive margin dollars for us on the growth of that business.
Okay. That's helpful. And, you know, moving to safety assessments here, you know, large competitor, kind of reallocating a lot of their infrastructure north of the border here. You know, if you were to think about the value of being in the US versus, you know, doing safety assessment work, you know, IND-enabling tox , 28 days, stuff like that, in the US versus in Canada versus in Europe versus in Japan, you know, how do companies think about that? Is there any difference between doing stuff in the US versus Canada or doing stuff in the US versus Japan?
Well, most of our customers, we don't, we don't have the option of doing business in Canada. We don't have a location in Canada, and we don't do any safety assessment business in Europe. It's all in the U.S. So I don't get to talk to them about whether they want to do their program because that is not an option for us.
Mm-hmm.
Our capacity is here in the U.S. Right now, if you were to choose to do a Cambodian cyno safety assessment in Canada or Europe or Japan, you would not be able to transfer any of the tissues or any of the samples back to the U.S. because that requires CITES.
Mm-hmm.
So that means the entire study is going to be done there. Most of our customer base, though, who we're working with, are obviously choosing to do business in the US, and they know, if they choose to do business with us, that's where we do our business.
... Okay. All right, no, that's helpful. Okay, so, you know, and then thinking about the, you know, we've talked a lot about large model pricing. You know, how is kind of the, the small to mid-size model, you know, demands and pricing trending this year?
I think the small animal model, the demand, I mean, we see that as a flat. We have a larger market share there than we do our discovery and safety assessment business. So it's—I think it's harder for us to grow that as significantly because the DSA, we're a very small player in a very big pond. In a research model business, we're a much bigger player in a smaller pond, if you will. I think it was important for us last year to really right-size our infrastructure. So in the RMS business, we closed 11 places. We consolidated, we invested in what we had left. We changed our transportation system, and we, you know, that and overall, I think it's worth about $20 million to us of costs we're taking out.
And, it's, that's significant margins in the U.S. and in Europe. So now we're gonna be much more competitive, one, from a transportation and a cost standpoint, but also I think from a quality and production and efficiency standpoint. Second of all, and then what we are really focusing on is more the scientific, genetically engineered models, the contract breeding, and some of the services. I think that's our opportunity to really see significant growth. And now that we have right-sized the organization and hopefully we're out of the brick-and-mortar change business and integration, you'll see us move much more into the scientific, arena and with our hires and our approach in really trying to grow the contract breeding and the services part of that business. And I think that's an opportunity for us.
We did well with growing the diet portion of the RMS business. And then I think we also have a lot of customers in that business. And I think this year, as we're combining the science of more of our research model and discovery, I think we'll be able to cross-sell a lot more between those, and I think that'll be an opportunity to enhance our services, especially in discovery. So, this year, we'll start, matter of fact, putting discovery salespeople into Europe, and that's gonna be something that we're just now initiating. And I think that we then can cross-sell that customer base. So the integration, we're about 18 months into the integration, one thing at a time. We can't throw a lot of money at it.
We have to make sure we take your cost out before we can invest cost. But we've done that, and I'm really looking forward now to getting onto the building and building market share and improving our services in that side of the business.
Okay. No, that's helpful. And just thinking about kind of the actions you guys are doing, you know, site consolidation, you know, you're obviously adding some new offerings at the same time. You know, how should we think, I guess, of the timeline of, like, where we are today, what inning we're in, in terms of the cost saving, saving initiatives, in terms of the actions? And then, like, what inning are we in terms of the cost savings realization on the dollar front?
Yeah, I think by the end of this quarter, we're gonna be 75%-80% complete. We have two. One site will be done, and a small site in Everett, Washington, will be moved to Fort Collins, and that'll be completed in October, end of October. And then, Hillcrest, we're expanding, and then we'll consolidate Blackthorn in the U.K. into the Hillcrest U.K. facility. And we're expanding and improving the Hillcrest facility at the moment, and that'll be done in the early part of calendar 2024. So those are really the last critical pieces. And then on the site optimization, we also, some of that included, we didn't want, we were actually adding capacity as we took down those 11 sites. So we improved the remaining facilities we had left.
We had deferred maintenance, or we had added some scale, especially on the DSA side, and as you said, we added some services. So those should mainly all be in place by the end of this quarter. So, that's. I'm really looking forward as a company and not talking about brick-and-mortar anymore-
Mm-hmm.
- and really talking about market share, developing our science, and growing our business.
Okay, well, that's helpful. And, you know, as you know, as the portfolio sits today, after all these actions are done, you know, as you've been digesting all the deals you've done, in the last few years, like, what is the structural growth rate of these two segments from a long-term perspective?
Well, with the changes we've made, we'll have the ability to grow our DSA business, you know, another 20%-25%. Right now, we're, you know, only saying, you know, 10%, 11%, 12% maybe next year. But I think if the market turns, we can do better than that, and I think we have the opportunities. We're seeing requests for quotes increase at the moment. So again, we're a very small player in a very big market. Us picking up a little market share is very meaningful to us. And when we see we're really leading with our scientific engagement team, we do quite well in the percent we close.
So we need to continue to improve our ability to communicate, respond, manage projects, and do things across sites, and we're getting much better at that. You know, just as an example, to put it in perspective, we had 220 software systems between all these 45, 35 sites. We'll be down to 25 sites, and I'll be down to hopefully here, about 120 software systems as we're- And it makes it a lot easier to translate data and communicate. We'll be on one system for most of our safety assessment and all of our communication. So that's taken a couple of years to put in place. So I think we can see some growth there, and I think the RMS business, as I said, I think that'll be low to-...
middle, single digits. But if we can grow the services a little more aggressively, then I think there's some upside there.
Okay. I appreciate that.
Well, the other part is the NHPs. The NHPs is we're assuming right now we're gonna have 40% less than we did in 2022, and I think last quarter, we sold 40% less than we did in 2022. I think we're seeing what the new normal is there.
Okay, that's helpful. You know, we've all, you know, been talking about pricing in NHPs here, and, you know, again, trickle into the country is pretty limited. I think globally, you know, even thinking about where NHPs are going, either to the U.S. or elsewhere, you know, that's down on an absolute basis. Inventories, if you look at, you know, the inventory levels that some of these locations are holding in terms of NHPs in the U.S., at least, that we have visibility into, that's shrinking pretty rapidly. So, like, at what point do we hit the crux, where all of a sudden, you know, everybody...
'Cause again, pharma's kind of taken the foot off the gas pedal in the sense of their impetus to get, you know, you know, figure out this supply chain situation, and because maybe the pipelines have shrunk a little bit, obviously the demand has slowed down. But at what point do, even with the slower demand environment, do we just kinda hit a wall here and then?
Well, you've done some pretty good research again on what we're importing. We're importing about half, what, 60% maybe, of what we were importing before.
Mm-hmm.
Usage may be down a little bit. You know, and I think that there was a good amount of inventory in the U.S. So what we actually do contract boarding, so we have a lot of colonies for our customers, for pharma, for government. So we kind of know what people have in terms of inventory. And as inventory becomes available, some people are, you know, so they know they need a certain amount next year. They've been buying and saying: "Just please board for us, and we'll let you know when we need them." And so some people... And if they, you know...
So that's been, it's worked well for us, because well, before, what we would do is they put a purchase order in, but we would sell them when they wanted them, which is a lot of working capital.
Mm-hmm.
So it's helped our working capital situation a little bit, I think, now that we, we don't have to plan to carry as much, much inventory because it, other people are carrying it. I think that a lot of people were looking at thinking this was gonna be resolved by the end of the year and, and took care of their needs between now and the end of the year and felt comfortable. And now they're looking into it and saying, "Oh, we're about ready to go. October is just around the corner, and, you know, we better start thinking about what this is gonna look like in the early part of, of 2024." So we're starting... Everybody has a different philosophy, how they're hedging their bet.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, it operates very much like a commodity. And what we've tended to do is, you know, amend our business model. So we've increased our contract breeding. We do breeding internally, we do contract boarding, and we still have inventory, and then we also have still in-inventory that will be coming in.
Okay. And then in terms of pricing, you know, to try to talk to people in the industry, it's. We always get a bit of confusing feedback on how pricing works in the industry. And I think, you know, you said that pricing is obviously strong right now, your pricing power, given the dynamics at play. But, like, if we hit the point in October where this dynamic is, you know, with the governments and the trade partners are not resolved, and people are now like: "Oh, wait, we don't have what we need," what does that mean for pricing next year? 'Cause, you know, all of a sudden, are people now scrambling around and your pricing power goes up that much more significantly? And, you know, we're up to what?
Like, I think significantly, obviously, over the past few years, I think market's now 50, 40, 50, 60, whatever you wanna say. Some have bought, been bought at 65, but, you know, are we looking at above that significantly is, you know, -
Well, that's getting to be a big number compared to where we started this a year ago.
Yeah.
So we, you know, we're obviously not counting anything going that high.
Yeah.
So, there's a couple things, you know, what is happening to the cost? What's happening in transportation?
Mm-hmm.
What's happening on the regulatory side? And then, what's happening in the marketplace? I guess it's safe to say that any of those things I think are possible.
Mm-hmm.
I think it could go up, or, you know, if something opens, they could come down. And I think it'll operate much like a commodity operates, and that's what we're gonna be prepared for.
Okay. All right. Well, that's helpful. And then, you know, thinking about the margin trajectory here, so, you know, we talked about the growth rates within DSA and RMS on a kind of longer-term basis. How should we think about margin accretion in those businesses? Again, once we're kind of through this, you know, restructure, if you will, period, consolidation costs, all the cost programs you got going on. Like, what is the, you know, the jump-off point when this all settles for both segments? And then, you know, what the annual... If we grow at the kind of expectations that you've got, like, what is the margin accretion in each of those segments?
Well, I think the DSA business, we're in the low 30s at the moment, and I think that the increase in sales of, as we grow and take advantage of the capacity we recently put in and all the services we put in, which allows us to eliminate the outsourcing that we were doing previously, I think we'll see this go to the upper, mid- to upper 30s. Because those increased sales are fairly accretive for us, which is why we grew those sites. We have that same opportunity in the RMS segment, where we're now, you know, significant, doing the same amount of work, but in half the sites. So we've took out a lot of costs and a lot of infrastructure.
And the way that we use that to, you know, to help our pricing and to get more competitive, or do we see those margins increase? And where do the margins actually for NHP go? Are all big factors. I think right now we're in the high 20s, low 30s in the RMS, in the RMS segment. And I think that we, you know, that should be able to hold fairly steady. Could improve, depending on where the NHP pricing goes.
Yep. And again, the-
The margin dollars, the margin dollars are gonna be there.
Okay. Okay. And, you know, the question that everybody's been trying to figure out is, you know, NHP pricing, margin impact. Like, how... You know, if prices go up another, you know, 20%, say, or they go down another 20%, like, how does that impact the margin of that business line or within, like, RMS as a whole? Like, how significant are those price points for the RMS margin?
If the pricing goes up or down?
Yeah.
Well, it's gonna go up or down probably because the quantity went up or down.
Yeah.
We have a fairly fixed cost structure in terms of we have a transportation system, and a sewer, and water, and cafeterias, and a hospital, veterinarians. A lot of fixed costs. So if there are less, then that cost has to be spread across less animals. So if there's more animals, the cost goes down. So the cost can actually go down with a lot more animals coming in. I think the margin dollars and the margins over the last two years that we've been in the industry, we've seen it all the above. And either which way, we've seen the margin dollars and the margin percent stay pretty close to the same. So, I think there's more of an art than a science to that.
But that's what we've been able to accomplish so far, and we, you know, we do keep a pretty close eye on that. And we work very closely with our customers to make sure that they're gonna have what they need in the future.
Interesting. So cost of the NHP margins and on the dollar perspective and a percent of revenues perspective, have been the same over the past two years?
They've stayed-
The math-
It is interesting, but the percents and the dollar margins are pretty close to the same as they were-
Mm-hmm
When we were selling 30%-40% more.
Interesting. Just because allocation per unit is fixed overhead?
Yes.
Okay, interesting. All right, so, you know, again, just wanted to take the last minute and a half here just to think about, you know, obviously, you're kind of through the, the rough patch here, you know, after last quarter's EBITDA number, as it relates to the, at least, the EBITDA, debt covenant. You know, looks like the trajectory ahead is clear from the cost savings. You know, cash is gonna start building over time. Like, you know, at what point do you guys start getting ambitious on, you know, inorganic growth?
Well, this has been, this has been a very good year for us. Building our team, integrating, taking cost out, I think we've just accomplished a significant amount, and just getting much smarter about this business. We're still a very young company, and we've matured quite a bit this year. And realized that, you know, some of the things that you brought up today, those, those things are gonna happen in this business frequently. It's just how we adjust and have the management team that is agile enough to adjust, and I think our size has helped us in that regard. We also are a very transaction-driven company, have been in the past with all our acquisitions and, and our, our ability to move. Right now, our transactions are focused on selling our assets that we just closed.
So we've got 4, 5, 6 facilities that we will close over the next, you know, several months, but hopefully by the end of the calendar year. And, you know, generate a little bit of cash. Maybe see the headwinds of some of these things that we're, that we're talking about today, have a little bit more visibility. And as our, you know, as our stock improves, then we'll- then that becomes an option, but to, to look at transactions again. But one of the things you look at us in the last three or four years, any deal we did was very accretive. We're not buying any companies at a multiple higher than what we're trading. We've used some debt, but we've also walked away from deals recently because I don't want to take on any more debt.
So I think it's very important for us to see what the market's gonna give us in terms of where's the share price, where's the capital markets, what are the interest costs, and, you know, and then what accretive deals are, are available. I do think there are some opportunities over the next 2-3 years, 4 years, that we're, you know, that hopefully we'll be able to consider. But, but for me, it's, it's not important if, if we do it this year or we do it in 2 years. It's we put ourselves in a position to do really intelligent, accretive deals in the future. So we will only do it if, if they are, if they are accretive.
All right.
We'll see what we do. We stay in the market. We still try and keep an eye on what's going on. I think a lot of people don't want to sell right now also...
Mm-hmm
... because of the current conditions in the market, but I think that'll change. It's changed over the last five years. It'll change again.
All right. Perfect. Thank you, Kay.
Thank you.
That's great. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Bob. Appreciate it.