Earnings Call: Q2 2020

Aug 6, 2020

Good morning, and welcome to the Olin Corporation Second Quarter 2020 Earnings Conference Call. All participants will be in listen only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by 0. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Please note this event is being recorded. Would now like to turn the conference over to Steve Keenan, Olin's Director of Investor Relations. Please go ahead. Good morning everyone and thank you for joining us today. Before we begin, let me remind you that this presentation along with the associated slides and the question and answer session following our prepared remarks, will include statements regarding estimates of future performance. Please note that these are forward looking statements and that actual results could differ materially from those projected. Some of the factors that could cause results to differ from our projections are described without limitation in the Risk Factors section of our most recent Form 10K, the second quarter 2020 Form 10 Q and in yesterday's 2nd quarter earnings press release. A copy of today's transcript and slides will be available on our website in the Investors section under are available under press releases. With me this morning is John Fisher, Olin's Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer. Pat Dawson, Executive Vice President And President, Epoxy And International Jim Bartlett, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer and Todd Slayer, Vice President And Chief Financial Officer. We will begin with brief prepared remarks and thereafter, we'll be happy to take your questions. I will now turn the call over to John Fisher. John? Thank you, Steve, and good morning, everyone. I hope you and your families are keeping safe and healthy during these challenging times. Olin shared our second quarter results last night. We'll keep our remarks this morning to a minimum in favor of addressing your specific questions. I'll start on Slide 3. COVID-nineteen related demand losses were first seen in our chemical portfolio in March. The demand impact continued through early June before showing signs of recovery During the second quarter of 2020, all experienced significantly lower customer demand, partially driven by inventory reductions. Consequently, 2nd quarter sales for the combined chlor alkali products and vinyls and epoxy businesses declined by approximately 27% year over year. Weakness in demand was compounded by 2 large planned maintenance turnarounds that took place early in the quarter. These included a 1 in every 3 year vinyl chloride monomer turnaround and 1 in every 5 year free port at Biclorohydrin turnaround. As a result, April and May were Olin's weakest volume months in the chlor alkali products and vinyls business. Overall, OLED's Chemical Businesses, sales increased each month during the quarter from the April low point. Olin's July sales levels have continued the improvement trend by exceeding June levels. As a further point of reference, the majority of our 2nd quarter adjusted EBITDA was generated in June as maintenance turnarounds were completed and volumes improved. Olin has addressed the lower customer demand by extending maintenance outages were practical and temporarily idling chlor alkali and epoxy assets. Today, we have 1 chlor alkali plant undergoing an extended maintenance turnaround, and we plan to continue to temporarily idle plants to minimize operating costs. 3rd quarter 2020 will benefit from improved volumes, lower maintenance turnaround costs and higher product prices compared to the 2nd quarter. We are forecasting third quarter 2020 adjusted EBITDA that is more than double second quarter 2020 levels. Let's now turn to Slide 4. The most significantly impacted end users for our products include automotive, aerospace, construction and oil and gas. Chlorine demand from Urethane and isocyanates customers represented our largest volume decline during the second quarter and that demand outlook still remains challenged. Chlorine sold into titanium dioxide, which held strong through the first quarter and weakened during April and is now below historic trends. Hydrochloric acid demand and pricing is well below typical levels. Also, reflecting the weakness in the oil and gas sector. Weakness in global vinyls demand contributed 50% from 1st quarter levels. We have seen OLED chloride ethylene dichloride pricing improved during the third quarter. Our second quarter of proxy resin volumes decreased by approximately 30%, both sequentially and year over year, across both Europe and North America, impacted by weak customer demand from automotive, industrial coatings, and oil and gas. We are now 1 month into third quarter and have seen an increase in vinyls and isocyanate demand and a slower paced recovery in resins in urethanes. On the caustic side, inorganic end uses are recovering while several grades of pulp and paper demand are still showing signs of weakness. Now let's take a closer look at caustic soda pricing, which is on Slide 5. As current operating rates slowed in the 2nd quarter, caustic soda availability tightened and domestic caustic soda price fees rose $70 per ton. 2nd quarter 2020 caustic soda pricing in Olin system increased approximately 8% when compared to the second quarter of 2020. This trend is expected to continue in the third quarter as Olin's July cost soda price was the highest of the year. The current environment across our chemical businesses is still marked by uncertainty and volatility. Future demand visibility on both sides of the ECU remains uncertain. Our customer order patterns have been and remain erratic heavily influenced by their customers and supply chain inventories. As a result, we consider it equally like equally likely that Olin's year end 2020 caustic soda price will be higher than or lower than our July 2020 pricing. Now let's talk about Winchester, which is on Slide 6. For the 4th consecutive quarter, the Winchester business experienced year over year segment earnings growth. In the second quarter of 2020, Winchester experienced a 17% increase in sales, compared to the same quarter last year, resulting in a 61% year over year increase in adjusted EBITDA. These year over year increases were due to higher commercial ammunition sales volume and improved pricing. The second quarter of 2020 represented the strongest quarter in commercial demand expect this elevated level of commercial ammunition demand to continue at least through the balance of the year. Winchester has significantly reduced inventory levels responding to this surge. The lower level of inventory in the business will limit our ability to meaningfully increase our commercial ammunition sales volume during the third quarter. Following the April 1 price increase, Winchester announced an additional 2020 commercial ammunition price increase effective August 1st. Moving to Slide 7, I'll provide an update on Winchester's Lake City project. Winchester will assume operational control of the U. S. Army's Lake City Army ammunition Manufacturing Facility on October 1st. This multi year contract is expected to increase Winchester's annual revenue by $450,000,000 to $550,000,000 and increased annual adjusted EBITDA for Winchester by $40,000,000 to $50,000,000. Based on the transition work performed to date, we are confident that we can meet or exceed these incremental EBITDA targets. During 2020, Olin expects to incur approximately $15,000,000 to $20,000,000 of transition costs and invest approximately $80,000,000 in working capital as part of the Lake City contract acquisition. In late 2020 and annually beginning in 2021, we expect to begin to realize incremental cash generation from a number of initiatives. On January 1, 2021, our vinyl chlorine monomer contract will transition from a toll manufacturing arrangement by a third party to a direct customer sale agreement. The new contract is expected to improve annual adjusted EBITDA by $50,000,000 to $75,000,000. In 2021, we will realize the full benefit of our new Lake City U. S. Army ammunition contract. An expected $35,000,000 reduction in annual operating costs from the permanent shutdown of a chlor alkali plant with capacity of 230,000 tons and the associated vanilladine dichloride production facility, both in Freeport, Texas These closures are expected to be completed around year end and will enable Olin to optimize its Freeport, Texas chlor alkali operations and cost structure. The winding down of the multi year information technology project to integrate the acquired Dow chlorine products businesses which is forecast to reduce spending by approximately $110,000,000 annually split between capital and expense This wind down begins in the fourth quarter of this year. These after tax cash flow enhancements of approximately $200,000,000 per year are generally independent of industry conditions. The associated adjusted EBITDA benefit is approximately $140,000,000 annually. Now I would like to turn the call over to Todd Slater, Olin's CFO. Thanks, John. During the second quarter, we completed several refinancing actions that enhanced our liquidity is highlighted on Slide 9. These actions included the following: We reactivated our $250,000,000 accounts receivable securitization facility, of which $240,700,000 was drawn at June 30. In May, we amended our $1,300,000,000 senior secured credit facility. It now includes a senior delay draw term loan facility of $500,000,000 and a senior revolving credit facility of $800,000,000. Both facilities are undrawn. The new bank structure provides additional financial flexibility. Also in May, we issued $500,000,000 of 9.5 percent senior notes due in 2025. These refinancing actions provide the company with the financial flexibility to navigate the current economic conditions and should support the company over the next several years. Olin expects to refinance a portion of the high cost bonds which were assumed during the 2015 Dow acquisition during the fourth quarter of 2020 when they first become callable. By refinancing a portion of the high cost bonds, we expect to reduce annual interest expense by approximately $30,000,000. We ended the quarter with cash and cash equivalents We continued to focus on other liquidity enhancements, such as our 2020 target to reduce working capital by $150,000,000. Year to date, we've reduced working capital by $31,000,000, which represented approximately $130,000,000 of incremental cash flow from March 2020 levels. We are forecasting capital spending to be $250,000,000 to $275,000,000 in 20.20. Which is approximately $135,000,000 lower than the prior year levels. The timing of capital spending was front half loaded, and we expect lower capital than 2020. Finally, on Thursday, July 30, Olin's Board of Directors declared a dividend of $0.20 on each shareable and common stock. This dividend is payable on September 10, 2020 to shareholders of record as of the close of business on August 10, 2020. This is the 3 75th consecutive quarterly dividend to be paid by the company. Operator, And our first question today will come from Kevin McCarthy with Vertical Research Partners. Please go ahead. Yes, good morning. I think you mentioned in the prepared remarks that you were idling some core alkali plants. Can you expand on that in terms of locations and what you think the operating rate are likely to be? And then, I guess on a related note, I think you announced in late 2019, your intention to shutter some capacity in Texas. Is that still on track for late 2020, or has that timeline changed? This is John Kevin. I'll answer the second question first. The Texas capacity shutdown is, is on pace be done by the end of 2020. And that was also done in context with another downstream plant. I would rather not address specifically what plants are down at any point in time. I can tell you we've had one plant where we've been running it between 2 3 weeks a month and taking 7 to 10 days off every month since March. I can tell you there's a plant that's down now that In order to save costs, we took a turnaround that was typically done with contractors and done tried to be done in 2 weeks and we're spreading it out over 5 to 6 weeks using just internal people and doing it only on 1st shift to avoid overtime costs So those are the kind of things we are doing. And I would say that we have had probably of the 7 different sites that have chlor alkali plants We've had some kind of shutdown at least 5 of them over the last 4 months. I see. That's helpful. And then I had a second question on the epoxy business, benzene and propylene, I suppose, have been quite volatile in recent months. So if you take into account the inventory flow through effects of of those important raw materials, how do you think your margins might trend moving forward into the 3rd quarter versus the 2nd quarter? Hi, Kevin. This is Pat. You're right. They have been very volatile. We saw the big fall off here in the second quarter. And, I would say that that's benefiting us here late. It benefited us a little bit late in the second quarter and it will benefit us in the first half of the third quarter. However, you've seen hydrocarbons now start to tick up. Both benzene and propylene. And that's the reason why we've got price increases out there right now. In third quarter. So, it's kind of where we see it. A lot of volatility. Okay. We'll stay tuned. Thank you so much. And our next question will come from Steve Byrne with Bank of America. Please go ahead. Yes, thank you. Wanted to ask a little bit about that DCM contract. Why is there now this $25 or $25,000,000 range in there? And what will be the mechanism for VCM pricing in that contract? The reason for there's a range in there is when you look at the demand uncertainty that we're facing today, it there's the prospect of just facing lower demand as we move into 2021 than we originally would have forecast as demand. And that space had been a lot and solid. And the contract, I'm not going to give you any specifics, but it does have some movements around different raw material inputs. And just also wanted to follow-up on your your outlook for caustic pricing. You highlighted that, you thought it'd be higher in the third quarter. I don't know if that was just like sequentially an improvement in the average price from second quarter to 3rd. Because you also mentioned by year end, you know, could be roughly the same as the price in July. So what is your what is your thinking on the on the cadence of pricing in the second half? Our comment on the 3rd quarters was simply the pricing all in system. That was all we were referencing. And then our outlook for the end of the year where we said equally likely, I think, just goes to the volatility around supply and demand. Or demand on both sides of the ECU, especially when you give consideration to the fact that PVC and chlorine demand typically weakens pretty significantly when we move from late third quarter into 4th quarter just on a seasonal basis. Thank you. And if I could just squeeze one more in there. Have you looked at the production of hydrogen out of your chlor alkali electrolyzers and whether there's an alternative use for that hydrogen other than, as a combustion fuel in your cogens. Well, we use a significant amount of it to make hydrochloric acid, which we then sell. So And we do have other contracts with third parties who take the hydrogen. For other than combustion purposes. And our next question will come from Frank Mitsch with Permian Research. Please go ahead. Yes. Good morning, folks. And, John, I assume this is your last conference call. So certainly wanted to offer my congratulations and best wishes on your pending retirement. Thank you, Frank. And if I could follow-up on the cost sort of pricing because it is a little bit of a surprise that you're anticipating, that, prices are moving higher. Obviously, your system includes certain contract terms and so forth. So I can understand why the 3rd quarter caustic prices may be higher in your system. But as you look at the industry overall, I mean, there is a thought that you know, PVC demand and chlorine demand is doing a bit better, than perhaps caustic demand. As you think about the industry itself, wouldn't you have thought that maybe from the high July levels, we might start to tend off or trend off, or that's not necessarily the case, you think? I think, Frank, that there are a lot of views and a lot of uncertainty around demand on both sides of the molecule And we have seen, PVC operating rates improve but they're still 10% to 15% below where they were a year ago. So they're not what I would term wildly robust And if we do get a seasonal slowdown in that, you could see a situation where caustic, if demand doesn't, seasonally slow down, which it typically doesn't. To us, you could go tight again. We're just not convinced that some of the things that you read, let's say caustic is going to roll over in the second half, but that's true. Got you. Understood. And you did mention that volumes in July were better than June. What does your crystal ball say in terms of when we might be at year over year parity, in terms of volumes for, for, for Olin. I'm not sure I could answer that question. I personally don't think that's going to happen in 2020. Okay. All right. All right. Fair enough. Thanks so much and again, congrats. And our next question will come from Hassan Ahmed with Alembic Global. Please go ahead. Good morning guys. You guys talked about in your prepared remarks, a couple of turnarounds in the quarter. I'm just trying to get a sense of what sort of negative EBITDA impact in the quarter those turnarounds may have had? Hassan, this is Todd. I know we have a slide back on 22 in the deck that talks about specifically the maintenance cost. It was a little bit of a headwind from Q2 versus Q1, but the most significant penalty to us is really the volume impact, especially our chlor alkali operations in April 1st part of May. Fair enough. Fair enough. And now moving to the raw material side of things, obviously, there's been some choppiness on the natural gas pricing side of things, the ethylene pricing side of things. As you guys have provided your Q3 guidance, of more than doubling EBITDA. I'm just trying to get a sense of what sort of raw material pricing environment you are baking in into that guidance? Hassan, this is Todd again. We, as you know, we are, heavily hedged at least a quarter out. So I think we have a high degree of confidence in our costs associated with ethane for ethylene and natural gas. And I think from Q2 to Q3, I think it's a small good guy. And our next question will come from Mike Sison with Wells Fargo. Please go ahead. Hey, good morning guys and congrats to you as well, John. Can you give us a little bit of color where your operating rates were for the chlor alkali footprint in June and heading into July And what do you think you need to sustain to sort of get that outlook for the third quarter in terms of EBITDA versus the second quarter? As you know, the industry operating rates the second quarter were around 71%. I mean, they were higher in June than, April. It would be our expectation that you're not going to see. And that 71% is down 14% year over year. Again, we are expecting continued year over year softness in operating rates, but not a significant improvement in operating rates from late Q2 to Q3. And I would add to that, the scale of the turnarounds that we discussed made our operating rates in the 2nd quarter lower than those of the industry. And we've got a built in larger step up as we move to Q3. And I would say that based on what we saw in July, July's operating rates are sufficient for us to achieve what we've said about the 3rd quarter. Understood. And then when you any changes to your long term view for the industry, you've had slides in the past out to you know, several, several years, mid parts of this decade in terms of, operating rate or capacity expansions being mostly debottlenecking. Any sort of is the do you think we're still on that same path in terms of the long term potential? For the industry? I think we're still on that long term path. And I think the likelihood of any near term capacity expansions within the industry globally has probably gone way down given what we've experienced in the last 3 or 4 months and what the un and the uncertainty of the near to intermediate term outlook is. And the next question will come from John Roberts with UBS. Please go ahead. Thank you and good luck, John. And you move to the executive Chairman Rolling. I'm sure Scott is listening in, so welcome. On Slide 4 for chlorine demand in the third quarter, you green bar for organic in organics. I think you said TiO2 was softening into the third quarter. So as TiO2 a minority of that inorganic box or is it large in the weakening in TiO2 is just very modest? Tom, I'll answer the first part of that. What we said was TiO2 weakened significantly in the second quarter and is improving, which would yield to green box. And Jim, maybe you want to just talk about that category? Yes. It's a broad based category. There's a lot of different different elements to it and read some other releases this morning where bromine actually was a good guy, was strong and so forth. So We see that as coming as increasing. Again, it's coming off of what was a slow 1st and second quarter and improving automobiles are back up. So by definition, there's an improvement there. And then as I mentioned, bromine and John just talked the TiO2. So it's a broad category that's improving. Okay. And then also on slide 4, all of the boxes improve from 2Q to 3Q, except repulp and paper for caustic soda. By flat, is it still at an elevated level, like, versus pre COVID? Or has it come down from the initial surge of boxes and tissue and tile demand that we had earlier this year? Yes, there was a in the second quarter, you had the big surge, especially on the tissue side of things. And so that is waning to a certain extent. So it's just a pullback in some of the markets that were really in surge, surge elements and so forth. And, also, there was the fine papers and so forth were expected with return to work, you would expect those to be coming up. And actually, that's being stretched out a little bit more with OSB fewer people coming back into offices and so forth. So, not a dramatic drop off. It's just a settling back of where we were in the second quarter, which was very much to the upside. And the next question will come from Eric Petrie with Citi. Please go ahead. Good morning. Could you talk a little bit about how the cost curve for ECU has changed with lower ethylene prices year over year as well as gas prices? And how does that impact your export economics And do you see that holding still into 2021? As it relates to the ECU, obviously ethylene doesn't really affect that. I would say where we are on the cost curve is the biggest variable on the cost curve right now is just operating rate. And obviously, how do you spread your fixed cost? I think natural gas for us is in a very similar place to where it was last year on average. I think What matters in terms of EDC? And I'll let Jim elaborate on this, isn't so much what the absolute price of EDC is based on ethane, but how that relates to the price of PVC globally. And Jim, maybe you want to Yes. I'll just add specifically on EDC. It's a very dynamic marketplaces, I think everybody is seeing, the dynamics that are taking place right now in EDC are that after the complete pullback in April where there was plummeting of EDC prices that took place 70% type of drops in terms of the pricing. It's now come back off of the floor. There's a There is the market. The markets come back. And so there's demand in Asia and around the world that's starting to pick up. And importantly, it's a big the economics with oil moving up and therefore, Naphtha based ethylene. There's a good there's a significant amount of cost push on the ethylene components for EDC. And in addition to that, you've got PVC pricing that's been moving up from the floors that that were hit in the second quarter. All of those dynamics are playing to the increase in EDC pricing that's taking place from the low levels in the second quarter. Helpful color. And then to help us think about your volume recovery sequentially, can you give us where Olin's underweight versus overweight EC molecule compared to the industry? I would say if you look at the industry, we're underway on the vinyl side and we're probably overweight on the urethaneisocyanate side. Great. Thank you. And the next question will come from Alex Yefremov with KeyBanc. Please go ahead. Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and congrats, John, as well. Just to follow-up on the EDC price, would you expect that price to be higher in the third quarter versus second quarter for in terms of your realizations? Yes, higher in the third quarter. Thank you. And then on the balance sheet, do you have full access to your entire revolver capacity currently? And what are the covenants that, they're related to this revolver? This is Todd. We do have full access to the revolver and the delayed draw term loan. The covenants now because we, in May, went to a secured structure. The covenant is only based on secured debt. And at the end of June, we had $153,000,000 of secured debt. So and the covenant now is 3.5 times basically adjusted EBITDA. So well within any of those kind of metrics. So we'll see, as we said, a significant improvement in financial flexibility associated with our new bank agreement. And the next question will come from Matthew Blair with Tudor Pickering Holt. Please go ahead. Hey, good morning, everyone. I had a question on Winchester margins. It looks like revenue is back to approximately 2016 levels. But back then, your EBITDA margin was closer to 20%. Now it's still at 11%. So Could you just talk about, you know, this ramp in revenue and volume you've seen this year, why hasn't it flown through to, to margins and what do you expect going forward? If you look at the way the Winchester business operates over the course of a demand cycle, you start out in the 1st phase of the surge, you get volume. And as the surge matures, because there are shortages on certain products, you get more pricing power and your margins typically expand over the course of the surge. So we are coming into this and really the first quarter of the surge was the second quarter, where we had been at the other end of that almost 3.5 years. So we were coming in with what I would call cyclically low margins we are now on the path to cyclically higher margins. And as we said, there was an April 1st price increase and now there's an August 1st price increase. Not of which really reflected much in the second quarter. Sounds good. And then, could you talk about your bleach activities. Did you have elevated demand in Q2? And if so, it looks like bleach pricing was flat quarter over quarter. Why didn't prices move up there? I would say, demand in bleach in the second quarter was a record for a second quarter remembering that a lot of it is seasonal. I don't know what you're looking at say that pricing was down or flat. So I can't comment on that. Other than it is And some of that About 16. Okay. And some of that just goes to the mix. Okay. Thank you. And our next question will come from Mike Leedhead with Barclays. Please go ahead. Great, thanks. Good morning and John, Mike. Congrats as well. I wanted to first return to the topic of the heavy turnarounds in the quarter and its impact on the results that you talked about. If I go to Slide 22, in your deck where it looks at maintenance turnarounds. If I just add up chlor alkali and epoxy, 2Q actually looks lower year over year and quarter over quarter. So Are there other costs in there that I don't see on the slide or can you just help triangulate that for me? Yes. Mike, this is Todd. The component that is missing, and as I mentioned earlier, really relates to the lost volume, especially in chlor alkali because of the turnarounds this year, with the VCM turnaround, And the epoxy epi turnaround affected our chlor alkali operating rates significantly in April 1st part of May. So that is on top of the numbers that you see on this slide. Got it. Okay. That's helpful. And then, John, just a bigger picture question around capital allocation. I think obviously the near term focus is on cash flow and deleveraging. And hopefully the next mile marker in that is the refinancing of the call will bonds later this year. I guess, how does the board view the dividend in light of this? Because I've resumed the dividend in some ways impairs your borrowing costs and your stock is probably not getting full credit for that dividend today? I would say if you look at Olin over a long period of time, we recognize and the board recognizes that it's a cyclical company. And there are points in time where The dividend is a very key component of shareholder value. And the board is looking at this company and the dividend over the long haul asset has done I'll speak for myself for at least the last 35 years. So, and that's the view. I don't have any sense that it is creating an issue as it relates to our borrowing capacity or anything like that? Got it. Thank you. And our next question will come from Arun Viswanathan with RBC Capital. Please go ahead. Great, thanks. Good morning and congrats on your retirement pending as well, John. Appreciate working with you over the last several years. So, yeah, I guess, first off, maybe we can just ask about near term caustic soda, you know, it looks like we saw the first decline here in July. I guess, do you expect, I guess, you know, that to continue the declines or maybe we just see 1 month, 1 month of declines would be unusual, usually we keep going. So maybe just off your perspective as to, the trajectory here and if pricing remains stable from here? I think the point we were trying to make has over demand on both sides of the molecule is very limited. And it is entirely possible to create a scenario where caustic does go down. And we said we gave that a 50% probability, but we also think there's a probability that caustic by the end of the year could be higher than it was in July. Keeping in mind that there's typically a very meaningful step down in operating rates I mean, you typically see a 5 to 7 point drop in operating rates. Caustic demand is not that seasonal, and we typically see price increases in caustic, for caustic announced late in the third quarter into 4th quarter, recognizing that seasonality. I wasn't we were not making a forecast. We were just trying to point out broadly there's a lot of uncertainty and you could end up on either side of the Okay. And, I appreciate the detail added on slide 8. It looks like you're now expecting $140,000,000 uplift in EBITDA, in 2021 versus 2020. What's your confidence level on that? I guess, it sounds mostly company specific, not necessarily related to price or supply and demand. I guess, is that correct? And could you maybe offer some thoughts on sensitivity to price and volume in that $140,000,000? Thanks. What I would say is that $140,000,000 we say is relatively independent of market conditions. So we feel very good about that flowing through the income statement. I think there's an entirely different question about where our base volumes and base pricing going to be. And I would suggest I come back to what we said. At the moment, is a lot of uncertainty about those because of the uncertainty around demand. Right now. I would just say all other things being equal and that's a lot of things be equal, we would expect 20.21's adjusted EBITDA to be $140,000,000 higher than it was will be in 2020. Okay, great. Thanks. Congrats again. Thank you. And the next question will come from Travis Edwards with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead. Hi, good morning. I just wanted to ask a follow-up question on the balance sheet. Can appreciate there's a lot of uncertainty also appreciate the recent deal that you completed to improve the covenant structure and long term viability of the business. But just wondering what your team is thinking as far as the potential or willingness to come to market again, either to preserve liquidity, take out more of those blue cube notes. And then as if so, if there is willingness, Can you just remind us again what your capacity looks like to issue debt at the secured level just between that secured leverage ratio you mentioned and your your CNTA limitations? Well, let me address the first part of that is that the term loan that we have in place is there to be used to call the Dow Bonds. And as Todd said in his remarks, we intend to do that. And we do have, essentially $1,200,000,000 of callable bonds starting October 15. So that $500,000,000 can be used or more. You can answer the secured borrowing question. I don't think we would comment at this point about whether to your specific question about whether we would consider additional debt or incremental borrowings beyond what John mentioned, to refinance any other remainder of that $1,200,000,000. Clearly, your leverage ratio If you borrow the $500,000,000 is much closer to 1 to 1 on a secured basis. When that would occur and our limitation is 3.5. Got it. Thanks. I can appreciate and there was some granularity there. So thank you for walking through. I guess maybe as a follow-up, just as we're looking through the slides, I think, the messages has changed a little bit as far as the interest cost savings. I think it's down to $30,000,000 now from the $50,000,000 to $70,000,000. And then later in the slide deck, you talk about, $12,000,000 of call premiums. So just wondering, between those two numbers, Can we extrapolate sort of what the implied portion of those, the $1,200,000,000 of notes is coming out? Is that a safe way to to sort of triangulate the amount that you're taking out or are there more considerations that we need to take into account? As part of the restructuring of of our debt, we reduced the amount of the delayed draw term loan from $1,200,000,000 to $500,000,000 we originally had expectations in a different environment that we could use the delayed drug term loan to take out all of the callable bonds. Now we are saying we're essentially going to call $500,000,000. That's what Todd said in his remarks. And all of that is what's now reflected in the slides. And I know we had something different, reflected last year early this year. Got it. Thanks. I know things have changed. So I appreciate the just clarifying on your end and best of luck to you, John and team. Thanks. And our next question will come from Roger Spitz with Bank of America. Please go ahead. Thank you. Good morning. This is in context to compare this, recent event with the 20 89 recession in chlor alkali. I mean, do do you now export more EDC than you, or shall I say Dow Chemical did back in 'eight, 'nine? This is Jim. To be honest with you, I wasn't in the business in 'eight, 'nine. So, I can't make a comment about, whether we're exporting more or less with that period of time. So, I don't have that information for you. Okay. In that VCM contract, you were suggesting that the range in EBITDA benefit. It's now a, you know, a different range, because the co customer might take lower volumes. If that were to occur, would you, make that up by exporting BCM if you have that capability or perhaps more EDC to to consume that chlorine capacity, production? Yes, we have flexibility in our assets. So, the EDC capability that we have, would provide an outlet for that should we fall short on the BCM contract. Got it. Thank you very much. And there are no further questions. This concludes the question and answer session. I'd like turn the conference back over to John Fisher for any closing remarks. Yes, I thank everybody for joining us today. And, All one looks forward to talking to you again in about 90 days. So thank you very much. And the conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.