Greetings, and welcome to the Oshkosh Corporation Fiscal Year 2021 Third Quarter Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Pat Davidson, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations for Oshkosh Corporation.
Thank you, Mr. Davidson. You may begin.
Good morning, and thanks for joining us. Earlier today, we published our Q3 2021 results. A copy of the release is available on our website at oshkoshcorp.com. Today's call is being webcast and is accompanied by a slide presentation, which includes a reconciliation of GAAP to non GAAP financial measures that we will use during this call and is also available on our website. The audio replay and slide presentation will be available on our website for approximately 12 months.
Please refer now to Slide 2 of that presentation. Our remarks that follow, including answers to your questions, contain statements that we believe to be forward looking statements within the meaning or implied by such forward looking statements. These risks include, among others, matters that we have described in our Form 8 ks filed with the SEC this Good morning and other filings we make with the SEC. We disclaim any obligation to update these forward looking statements, which may not be updated until our Next quarterly earnings conference call, if at all. All references on this call to a quarter or a year are to our fiscal quarter or fiscal year, unless stated otherwise.
Our presenters today include John Pfeiffer, President and Chief Executive Officer and Mike Pack, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Please turn to Slide 3, and I'll turn it over to you, John.
Thank you, Pat, and good morning, everyone. I'm proud to share that Oshkosh has delivered another quarter of strong performance, experiencing strong orders, sales growth and robust backlogs across all of our segments. Our strong Q3 results include sales of $2,200,000,000 and adjusted earnings per share of $2.09 an increase of more than 60% over prior year adjusted EPS. We are pleased with this strong performance And I'm proud of our team's perseverance to deliver growth and solid results in the face of one of the most challenging global supply chain environments and recent memory. Our Q3 was highlighted by several exciting announcements on the heels of the USPS Next generation delivery vehicle or NGDV win in the 2nd quarter.
In early June, we were notified that we won the Stryker Medium Caliber Weapons System or MCWS program, which represents an important new adjacency for our Defense Business, less than a week later, we held a joint news conference with the City of Madison, Wisconsin to announce our revolutionary new brick fire truck, the Pierce Volterra. Madison is the 1st city in North America to be operating an electric Tire truck is part of its fleet and we're pleased to report that the truck has been performing extremely well. This is a big step forward for our EVs and is another milestone in our 2 decade plus history of electrifying products. As we've been discussing over the past year, We have significant electrification projects in all of our business segments. And in last And in late June, we announced Spartanburg, South Carolina as our newest manufacturing facility.
The Spartanburg factory will be the home of our USPS N GDV production. We are proud to be creating over 1 1,000 manufacturing jobs in South Carolina for this exciting new program. As we look at the current landscape, many industries, including our own, are seeing a rapid increase in demand with market recoveries causing significant stress on global supply chains. And that has only intensified over the past quarter. At Oshkosh, we are witnessing the effect of these supply chain disruptions primarily within the access equipment business impacting sales by approximately $100,000,000 during the quarter.
Importantly, we believe these supply Chain issues will eventually subside and we are well positioned to capitalize on the market recovery. As we address these disruptions, we are updating our expectations for 2021 adjusted EPS and now expect $6.35 to $6.50 tightening the range a bit heading into our 4th quarter. Reducing the top end of the range the ongoing supply chain issues that I mentioned. Mike will share more details in his section. Now, let's turn to Slide 4 and get started on our segment updates with Access Equipment.
The recovery momentum we discussed on our last This call continued and demand for our industry leading access equipment strengthened. While we expected some Supply chain disruptions in the back half of the year, the magnitude of the impacts has been more significant than we previously expected. Our access team did an outstanding job minimizing the volume impact during the quarter, which allowed us to deliver nearly 90% revenue growth versus the prior year. We are seeing strong demand led by North America. Elevated fleet ages combined with strong equipment utilization and a healthy rental market are fueling this demand.
We expect a multiyear opportunity for robust replacement demand as rental companies look to lower the overall age of their fleets, which were at historically high levels entering 2021. We expect further opportunities when non residential construction rebounds. As a result of these market fundamentals, Our customers are already beginning to plan for their 2022 capital requirements. Orders were strong during the quarter, leading to a backlog of $1,750,000,000 up more than 200% versus last year and an all time record for access for the Q3. We continue to be pleased with customer interest in orders for our electric booms and scissor lifts.
The move towards electric Still in its early stages and is gaining traction with customers that are looking for improved performance benefits, total cost of ownership benefits and carbon footprint reduction. The bottom line for the segment is that we are still in the beginning of what we believe is a multiyear growth cycle as economies recover and customers use our by year growth cycle as economies recover and customers use our safety and productivity enhancing equipment in more applications. Please turn to Slide 5 and I'll review our Defense segment. Our Defense team delivered solid 3rd quarter results with double digit sales and operating income growth and continues its success entering new adjacent markets that supplement our market leading position with tactical wheeled vehicles. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we announced the decision to build the PS' next generation delivery vehicles in Spartanburg, South Carolina in late June.
Spartanburg is an outstanding location with deep automotive manufacturing roots and we look forward to bringing new team members on board to to help build these game changing 0 emissions and low emission last mile delivery vehicles for our nation's postal carriers. Our team has already begun preparing the facility for the planned production launch of the NGDB in 2023. Recall, this is a 10 year contract that calls for between 50000,165,000 vehicles with a mix of both 0 emission BEVs and fuel efficient ICE vehicles. We are continuously engaged with a broad cross of USPS representatives, including postal carriers, procurement and technology professionals and are very encouraged by the positive feedback we received on the great technology we are building into the NGDB. We look forward to sharing our progress during our Analyst Day this September in Wisconsin.
In early June, we were notified that we won the Stryker MCWS competition, which will result in our team integrating the MCWS on the Stryker vehicles that are used by U. S. Army Brigade Combat Teams, SBCTs, the 6 year contract includes spectrum of system technical support, interim contractor logistics support and integrated product support. To achieve this win, our team brought together the best in class capabilities for system design, manufacturing an integration to provide a highly capable solution that meets current Stryker MCWS program requirements, while offering the flexibility to upgrade in the future. The 6 year contract is worth up to $943,000,000 This is a great example of our team's ability to successfully compete for and win programs in adjacent markets that are part of the Army's priorities.
Our January acquisition of Pratt Miller was instrumental in our ability to win this important program. Before I leave defense, I wanted to mention some late breaking news that our bid for the OMFV Our Optionally Manned Fighting Vehicle was selected as one of 5 proposals to participate in the concept design phase of the program. We are working with some outstanding partners and this is a significant win for Oshkosh. It's also another example of our ability to compete in adjacencies outside of tactical wheeled vehicles. The OMFV is planned to replace the Bradley fighting vehicle and the program involves several milestones over the next several years.
Let's turn to Slide 6 for a discussion of the Fire and Emergency segment. The Fire and Emergency segment delivered excellent performance in the quarter with solid sales and an operating income margin of 14.7% despite the challenging supply chain environment. As we've shared over the past year, we had Some concerns with municipal budgets as we emerge from the pandemic that could lead to downward pressure on fire truck demand. Our expectations are changing as communities have been more resilient through the pandemic, Buoyed by strong residential construction and increasing property values, we now expect 2022 to be a solid year as evidenced by our better than expected order rates. F and E finished the quarter with another solid backlog of $1,200,000,000 an increase of 8.5 percent over last year.
Orders in the quarter were impressive at $247,000,000 an increase of 69% over last year. Pierce is the industry leader in municipal fire trucks and that leadership was punctuated with our June announcement of North America's 1st electric fire truck, a milestone for both Oshkosh and the industry. The City of Madison is piloting our new Volterra pumper as part of its frontline fleet and it has successfully responded to hundreds of emergency calls. The Volterra highlights our expertise with electric vehicles and provides All the operational, functional and safety benefits our customers have come to expect from Pierce while not sacrificing performance. Our customer is saving over 100 gallons of diesel fuel per week with the pumper and they are also inviting the community and other fire departments see the unit up close throughout the summer.
We also launched the Volterra Electric ARFF vehicle, which will be visiting airports around the United states. Please turn to Slide 7 and we'll talk about our Commercial segment. Our Commercial segment returned to growth this quarter with a revenue increase of over 12%. Our efforts to drive margin improvement through simplification and innovation in this segment are working as evidenced by our 10.6 percent operating margin performance in the quarter, surpassing last year's 10.2% adjusted operating margin. Our 3rd quarter results were particularly impressive given the challenging supply chain environment.
As most of you are aware, our commercial Segment is more reliant on 3rd party chassis than our other segments. Commercial has been working diligently to address reduced chassis availability It has been prevalent across the industry during the recovery. Our team has maximized production in the face of these headwinds by adjusting our schedules, thus allowing our production lines to remain operational and effective despite these hurdles. Our outlook is supported by Strong orders in the quarter for both RCDs and mixers as the U. S.
And Canada moved beyond the pandemic. These orders led to an all time high backlog of just under $500,000,000 providing solid visibility into 2022. We are pleased to report that rear discharge concrete mixer production in our Focus Factory in London, Ontario, Canada is proceeding very well and the transition is complete. We are also focused on optimizing RCV production in our Dodge Center, Minnesota facility in the coming quarters. We also delivered First unit of 5 electric RCVs for Boise, Idaho working closely with one of our OEM partners.
We look forward to working with our customers and partners as they establish and implement electrification and emission reduction strategies for the long term. Finally, we are participating in the Advanced Clean Transportation Expo in Long Beach, California in late August. We plan to showcase our fully electric cobalt concrete mixer truck concept. I encourage all of you to check it out if you plan to attend the Expo. I'm going to turn it over to Mike to discuss our Q3 results and expectations for the remainder of 2021.
Thanks, John, and good morning, everyone. Please turn to Slide 8. We delivered strong 3rd quarter results Despite significant supply chain disruptions, which impacted our ability to complete and deliver units, consolidated revenues were approximately $100,000,000 lower than our Our expectations as a result of these disruptions largely at Access Equipment. Consolidated sales for the Q3 were $2,200,000,000 were $628,000,000 higher than the prior year, representing a 40% increase. The sales increase was driven by an 89% increase at Access Equipment, a 27% increase at Defense and a 12% increase at Commercial.
Access equipment sales increased due to improved market demand as we exit the pandemic driven by strong replacement demand. Last year demand was negatively impacted As COVID-nineteen shelter in place restrictions peaked around much of the globe in our Q3. Defense sales increased in the due to higher JLTV volume and the benefit of Pratt Miller sales, which we acquired in the Q2 of this year. Fire and Emergency sales were approximately flat in quarter and commercial segment sales were up due to increased RCV demand as we emerge from the pandemic offset in part by the lack of concrete batch plant As a reminder, the concrete batch plant business was divested in the Q4 of the prior year. Consolidated adjusted operating income for the 3rd quarter was $205,100,000 or 9.3 percent of sales compared to $128,800,000 or 8.1 percent of Sales 8.1 percent of sales in the prior year quarter.
As a reminder, we benefited from approximately $60,000,000 of temporary cost actions as a result of the pandemic during last year's Q3. As we shared on prior calls, the return of the majority of these expenses To our run rate was a headwind to year over year incremental margins in the quarter. Excess equipment adjusted operating income increased as a result Higher sales volume offset in part by higher incentive compensation expense, higher material costs and unfavorable customer and product mix. Defense operating income increased as a result of higher sales volume and lower new product development spending, offset in part by unfavorable price cost dynamics. Fire and Emergency operating income decreased in the current year quarter as a result of higher incentive compensation expense offset in part by favorable product mix.
In Commercial segment, operating income increased largely due to higher sales volume and favorable product mix, offset in part by higher material costs. Corporate costs increased 16,800,000 dollars due to higher incentive compensation expense and the return of other spending subject to temporary cost reductions in the prior year. During the quarter, we repurchased approximately 107,000 shares of common stock for a total cost of $13,000,000 Adjusted EPS for the quarter was $2.09 compared to adjusted EPS of $1.29 in the prior year. Our GAAP EPS of $3.07 for the quarter includes a tax benefit of $1 share related to a U. S.
Net operating loss carryback to previous years with higher federal statutory rates. This tax benefit is excluded from adjusted EPS. Please turn to Slide 9 for shared that our expectations assume no major supply chain disruptions. As we discussed today, we are facing significant supply chain challenges, which are impacting a broad range of parts and components across all of our businesses, much like many industries across the globe. Despite these challenges, our teams have delivered solid results.
Aside from supply chain challenges, our business is healthy As order rates and backlogs are strong in all of our segments, which provide solid visibility for the Q4 and into next year, Our updated expectations reflect our belief that supply chain challenges will neither improve nor deteriorate meaningfully for the remainder of 2021. Our updated expectations fall within the range of our prior expectations despite these headwinds. We expect consolidated revenues of approximately $7,800,000,000 and adjusted consolidated operating income range $610,000,000 to $630,000,000 and an adjusted EPS range of $6.35 to 6 $0.50 compared to our prior range of $6.35 to $6.85 At the segment level, we are estimating Access Equipment sales of approximately $3,200,000,000 a 28% increase compared to 2020 and adjusted operating income margin of approximately 10.5%. Our revised expectations reflect production constraints, Manufacturing inefficiencies and increased freight costs due to the current supply chain environment. We are reaffirming our full year expectations for We expect sales and an operating income margin of approximately $2,500,000,000 8%, respectively, at Defense and sales and an operating income margin of $1,200,000,000 14%, respectively, at Fire and Emergency.
Within the Defense segment, we have analyzed the accounting treatment for the USPS NGDV contract And if determined that we will begin recognizing revenue upon production of units, which is planned to begin in 2023. As such, we expect To see very limited USPS revenue over the next 18 to 24 months. We are estimating commercial segment sales will be up modestly versus our prior to approximately $950,000,000 and we expect operating income margins of approximately 8%. We estimate corporate expenses will be approximately $155,000,000 We estimate our adjusted tax rate for 20 Cash flow of approximately $750,000,000 an increase of approximately $100,000,000 versus our prior expectations. We also estimate capital expenditures will be approximately $140,000,000 Looking at the 4th quarter, we expect consolidated sales to Freight cost increases will be a $35,000,000 headwind to consolidated margins in the quarter, and we expect a $30,000,000 year over year headwind as a result of temporary cost reductions in the prior year quarter.
I'll turn it back over to John now
continues to be positive. We've made adjustments to our expectations as we work through supply chain challenges. Importantly, we believe the supply chain Challenges will subside over time. We won some big programs recently and we're taking actions to drive profitable growth as we innovate, serve and advance the company. Our long term outlook is strong as we leverage technology and innovation to generate industry leading performance and further distance ourselves from the competition.
I hope you will consider attending our Investor Day in September. We have a full agenda that will provide an excellent overview of our company, a chance to speak with our leadership team and experience our industry leading innovative products first hand. While portions of the meeting will be live streamed, you will need to be here in person to get the full experience. We hope to see you there. Please reach out to Pat if you have any questions.
I'll turn it back over to Pat to get the Q and A started.
Thanks, John. I'd like to remind everybody, please limit your questions to 1 plus a follow-up, and we need to be disciplined on that follow-up question. After the follow-up, we ask you
Thank you. Our first question comes from Steven Feldman with Jefferies. Please proceed with your question.
Hi, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking the question. The question is really on sort of price versus Cost and I think you talked about $35,000,000 of headwind from material and freight in the 4th quarter. I assume that's net of any Price increases you're putting through, but if you could just kind of describe what's happening with price and when and if That kind of normalizes and maybe even gets better in 'twenty two. Whatever commentary you could have around that, I'd appreciate.
Sure, Steve. This is Mike. I can take that. Yes, so really from a price cost perspective, what we're seeing For next quarter, the $35,000,000 I referenced is in line with what our expectations were last quarter when we said about $45,000,000 We did see about $10,000,000 to $12,000,000 in the Q3 we just wrapped up. We do expect that we'll continue to have some cost price headwinds in our Q1 of next year, but by the time we get to the January quarter or Q2, that will start Moderating.
Certainly, since the last call, we have continued to see commodity escalation. In some cases, we've taken further pricing action during the past quarter. So we're going to continue to manage it in a disciplined manner. But again, by the time we get to the Q2, we should 13 moderation, to get back to an equilibrium there. And again, if you go back to 2018, When we saw the steel escalation, we did see a benefit on the back end of that.
So we don't have reason to believe we wouldn't see something
Thank you. Our next question comes from Nicole DeBlassen with Deutsche Bank. Please proceed with your question.
Yes, thanks. Good morning, guys.
Good morning. Good morning.
Can we talk a little bit about what's going on with the supply chain? And I guess, did you actually have to shut Down production as a result at all in the Q3? And then when we think about 4th quarter and excess, is the anticipation are you guys anticipating shutting down production at certain points during the quarter there?
Yes. Thanks, Nicole. The supply chain Definitely the headline for us this quarter as the markets have rebounded really sharply. The Supply chain has had a tough time catching up. And when we talk about supply chain disruption, we're Talking about it beyond just say the chip challenge, suppliers are really facing challenges in hiring employees Across industries, shipping itself has been a major challenge.
We have global supply chains. So there's a lot of freight imbalance. It's Added 2 weeks, sometimes up to 4 weeks of lead time just in freight from Asia or Europe that's caused problems. So we've had a lot of, I'll call it, disruptions, slowdown in manufacturing, a couple of times where we've had stop lines for temporary periods of time, and that has had a bigger impact At the Access Equipment segment where we have a lot of high volume manufacturing than the other segments, But it's a challenge across our entire business. We expect that this will subside.
We don't think this is going to last For a long period of time, we believe we're in it for another couple of quarters. And as we get into 'twenty two, we believe we'll start to see much more normalization as the suppliers have caught up with this It's a quick recovery that we've all been struggling to keep up with.
Understood. Thanks. And maybe for my follow-up, just on the free cash flow guidance increase, is that all working capital driven? Just curious since earnings That at the top end has come down a bit?
Yes. It indeed is free cash flow, some customer advances and modestly lower
Thank you. Our next question comes from Chad Dillard with Bernstein. Please proceed with your question.
Hi, good morning guys.
Good morning.
So can you talk
a little bit about your conversations with rental companies, at least as it pertains to 2022? Got it happening earlier. Any color you can give on just initial thoughts on how you're thinking about pricing?
Yes. So, it's John. I'll kind of give you maybe an overview of the Access customer environment and demand environment, also try to answer your question about 20 2. So needless to say, the current environment is really, really strong. And that's you see that in our backlog, 1.75 We've got lots of orders are strong, our backlog is good.
This is all business that will continue to Our orders that we'll continue to fulfill. Right now, when you look at the rental market, we believe that the demand is largely driven by Placement demand, we've been talking for several quarters about how fleets are aged and our customers now they're more confident In the recovery, they're more willing to spend capital to upgrade those fleets and that's what they're doing. There's also fleet growth that's happening. They're trying to grow the fleets because they're finding new opportunities to apply the equipment. That's also of course very good.
This all means that there's really strong utilization rates. Even with not such great nonresidential construction These demand rates have been strong. Again, it's that replacement demand that's really been fueling it, we believe. But as non residential Starts to improve in the future, that's just going to continue to help our demand, which is why we believe we're in a multiyear Recovery period. So if you look at 2022, the one thing that I'll say about it is we are having already speaking with our customers regarding their Plans and their purchases for 2022.
And we know and we've always said that, hey, we've got Some cost inflation in our business with material costs and some of the freight rates, and We intend to make sure that we recover that. Sometimes there's a little bit of a lag effect because we've got backlogs, But we will fully expect to stay ahead of it over time. So that's what I can tell you about it.
That's helpful. And then maybe a
little bit longer term question on some of your New electric products versus internal combustion. Can you just talk about just what the margin difference Would be potentially, is there any margin difference? Can you talk about just your philosophy on R and D and the level of intensity that you think is appropriate? And just lastly, just manufacturing footprint. Are you thinking about having dedicated lines or is it going to be integrated with The legacy products?
The last point, it will be some of both. Some will be integrated, some will be independent lines. It really depends on the segment, depends on the product. What I can tell you about the electrification business, hey, I'll tell you in general, we're an innovation company And we innovate all the time, whether it's electrification or autonomy or with data and how we use data to provide better performance of a product and better When you look at electrification, I think the most important thing to understand with electrification Electrification, the fact that it provides 0 emission is good. But that's not that's only one benefit that we all get out of electrification.
The other benefits That are big are there's big total cost of ownership benefits because it's more efficient to run off of electricity than it is off of diesel or Gasoline for that matter. Number 2, there's a lot of performance benefits that we provide for the product, For our customers, for productivity with electrification that you don't necessarily get with an internal combustion engine. So the answer to your question is absolutely that leads to our ability to improve our margins because we're able to solve customer problems better. And the economics are there. So that's one of the great compelling things about electrifying a lot of our product lines.
And this will go on for years. We're not going to see entire end markets electrify overnight. It's going to be It's going to take several years for the adoption by our customer base. Some will adopt faster than others. But this is a positive trend on many different levels.
Thanks. I'll pass it on. Thank you. Our next question comes from Jamie Cook with Credit Suisse. Please proceed with your
Hi, good morning. I guess just two questions, John. Obviously, 2021 is a challenging year. But as you think about 2022, is there any way you could outline for us which markets you think have the opportunity for growth? And If anything, if sales that were that we couldn't get in 2021 because of supply chain, if that's sort of additive to your 2022 outlook?
And then I guess just a longer term question. I think you've done a good job sort of talking about how Oshkosh can grow sort of in adjacent markets, whether The optional land vehicle market or last mile delivery, can you talk about sort of when we think Shikash can start like do we start to see those benefits in 2022 or do those does the growth from adjacent markets, is it should we expect it further out? Thanks.
Yes. So I think that from our for the most part, if you look at all of our commercial segments, non defense segments, Let's call them, we expect really healthy markets in 2022. We had and I'll give you an example. We had previously been very about the municipal spending and municipal budgets and we talked about that in past quarters because Usually after a recession municipal budgets get squeezed and sometimes that can have a downward pressure on fire truck demand. We are not seeing that.
We're seeing municipal spending that is better than we anticipated, where we see the market for our fire trucks To be better than maybe we thought it would be several quarters ago, so that's positive. We see multi year growth in the Access segment For a lot of factors that also include global and China and so forth. The defense segment, The tactical wheeled vehicle budgets are going to be under a little bit of pressure in 20222023. So there'll be some pressure there, but defense is a great growth story for us because of our what you mentioned in the second half of your question, Our ability to win adjacent programs has been validated the last 6 months. USPS is a big, big program for us.
MCWS is a near $1,000,000,000 program For us, these are adjacencies that are much more in line with funding priorities. We were just down selected on the OMFB, that's Optionally And fighting vehicle that will replace the gigantic infantry fighting vehicle or the Bradley that's in the market. So to get down selected to participate on that's a big deal. So I'll give you some color on the timing. So on MCWS, There will actually be a little bit of revenue in 2022 from NCWS.
And we'll get but The material revenue will come from 2023, and that'll last about 6 ish years for that program to run. And on postal, we go into production in postal in the second half of twenty twenty three. So we'll See some revenue in 'twenty three, we'll see material revenue in 'twenty four and up to full rate revenue in 'twenty five, And that's a long term program and a big program. So that's a little bit of color I can provide you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from Mig Dobre with Baird. Please proceed with your question.
Yes. Good morning, everyone. Mike, maybe this question for you. I'm sort of trying to understand the moving pieces to your updated outlook here State as to how you're thinking about these figures again in your updated fiscal 2021 outlook? And then how much in terms of dollars all these supply chain issues
First of all, really the cost price is fairly similar to what we expected this past quarter. So we talked about the $45,000,000 in the back Half of the year, we had about 10 ish million in the 3rd quarter, rises to about 35 dollars in the Q4. The other obvious headwind year over year was those temporary costs reversing was about $60,000,000 and a lot of those came back The past quarter, in the 3rd quarter, it was about $30,000,000 in the 4th quarter. So those are sort of the foundational numbers. If you really look at it from a margin We were geared up and John and I also said in my prepared remarks that We missed probably about $100,000,000 of revenue or had an opportunity for about another $100,000,000 of revenue largely in access.
And obviously, we are geared up from a staffing perspective to really build that revenue and or deliver those products and And realize that revenue. So, and that would have been obviously, if you think about it, that's about $0.25 of EPS In the quarter, so I think when you factor in a bit more volume and so on, I don't know that the cost price dynamic is really any different than what we've been talking about. Freight may be modestly higher than what we thought, but I would say materials versus my last assumption that or our last assumption we shared, probably a Small, but less than in the 4th quarter. Okay. Okay.
That's helpful.
And then again, you talked about things starting to normalize in the Q2 of 'twenty two. And I'm sort of curious here as to what your visibility is on that. And people already asked about pricing for access In 'twenty two, but do you feel like the market is tight enough to where you actually do have the need of pricing power in order to That multiple headwinds we're talking about here. Thank you.
Yes. Mig, we're watching the cost dynamics very closely. And back in the second quarter, we implemented price increases in our non defense businesses. In Some cases, we've implemented additional price increases. We're watching the commodities and we're going to continue to adjust as necessary.
Obviously, we talked about we are going to have the headwinds in the Q1 next year. When we get to the Q2, We believe that moderates and again we're watching it closely and we're going to be We're heading into those pricing discussions with our customers. Yes, Meg, this is John. I'll just add to that. We have all time record backlogs in the company right now.
I mean, all time in the company, never had And we feel really good about where we're headed. We feel really good about what we're doing right now. We've had really tough supply chain challenges as everyone tries to ramp up quickly. I don't think that's Overly unusual, but when you couple that with the freight challenges, it becomes a little bit more unusual. When we say that it's going to norm, we believe we don't Perfect visibility.
When we believe it will normalize in Q2, which means the Q1 of calendar year 2022, that's coming from our Very mature supply chain management team that have a lot of insight not just into our That's supply chain, but our Tier 2 and our Tier 3 supply chain. That's where that information is coming up to us from. And we've got really, really good supply chain People who are able to manage a complex situation like this fairly well. In terms of the demand, I mean demand is good. We provide a lot of value to our customers.
We're number 1 in our segments. We will absolutely price responsibly.
That's all I can say.
Very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from David Raso with Evercore ISI. Please proceed with your question.
Hi. Thank you I appreciate the 4th quarter comments about year over year cost, right, the materials Freight cost and the temp cost reductions. But then the comment you made early in the call about the supply chain won't deteriorate or improve for that I'm just trying to square that up with for Access, sequentially, You saw this most recent quarter revenues up about $185,000,000 and EBITDA went up $32,000,000 right? Not great incrementals, but still EBITDA on UPREV. The 4th quarter is implying revenues go up another $50,000,000 but now EBIT drops Sequentially, dollars 8,000,000 So I'm just trying to square up the comment, no deterioration from here, because that at least suggests it does get more challenging And then I can have a quick follow-up after that, if you don't mind.
Yes. David, this is I'll take it. I think my comments in my prepared remarks really responding to the challenge we had in the quarter That was sort of new was the availability of parts and the ability then to produce and deliver the product. So it's really commenting on The availability of parts and so we're assuming that doesn't in the Q4, we believe it's still going to be a challenge, More challenge than it was in our second quarter, similar to what we saw at the back half of the third quarter. From a You're correct.
From a supply chain perspective, our assumption was always that the price cost Dynamic was going to be more challenged in the Q4 and that's why, as we talked about it and even on the last earnings call, we saw about a $10,000,000 headwind In the Q3 from a price cost from a material escalation, and that grows to about $35,000,000 next quarter. But that's really in alignment with what we saw last quarter. Okay. So the meant with what we saw last quarter.
Okay. So the availability of components doesn't deter price Correct. And with that increased visibility that you have, the size of your backlog, I mean across all the businesses, but I'm Specifically asking about access. Given that feedback from your mature supply chain management suggesting looking 2nd tier suppliers, maybe things loosen up a little bit when we get into calendar 1Q. I'm curious operationally, how is that impacting your strategy When it comes to locking in costs for next year, I'm just trying to think about that increased visibility might give Confidence to be a little stronger in your negotiations for price, but how are you managing your cost that you're aligning up your supply with that increased
Yes, David, we always have a just as we manage through the pandemic, we have a robust playbook as we manage. So it's really a combination in some cases. We have locked. We're talking to our suppliers. So there's certainly visibility that we're gaining over time.
Obviously, underlying commodities have An opportunity for us to continue to work with our supply chain partners and in some cases lock in our material costs.
Okay. So fair to say the increased visibility in the top line, you have taken some of that visibility and locked in more of your cost
Thank you. Our next question comes from Jerry Revich with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.
Yes. Hi. Good morning, everyone.
Good morning, Jerry. Good morning. I'm
wondering if you could just talk about your thoughts Around pricing mechanism heading into 'twenty two and longer term, over the past couple of years, we've had a lot of supply chain volatility, steel volatility. And any views on potentially setting up inflation index pricing mechanisms so we're not Looking at these types of price cost headwinds that we're talking about here with escalations this year, how are you thinking about that As we head into this coming cycle.
Thanks. Well, yes, I guess this is Mike. I can start and maybe John will have a couple of comments too. I think the bottom line is We saw significant material inflation back in 2018. And what we typically see is we're going to be disciplined and continue to adjust Sure.
Prices, it's very difficult when you have a backlog to go back and reprice that. And there's always debate around there's always a lag when you The core raw material increase and when that reads through the supply chain. So it's really the devil's in the details. So what we've done is we watch Closely, we adjust price when we see changes. And as we saw in 2018, You have a bit of a headwind coming into an inflationary environment.
You normalize. And then as things moderate over You tend to get a benefit. We saw exactly that happen back in the Q1 of 2019 as we came out of really the elevated steel environment In 2018. So we don't have reason to believe that that's different. And we think that's again, that's it works.
That's how we work with our customers and over time that's been effective.
Yes. And Art, you have to
I don't our customers for the most part, For the most part, they're never saying absolutely. They don't like the indexing because they have to forecast what their costs are And so they're trying to rely on us to forecast what the costs are going to be as opposed to doing index type pricing.
Okay. And then separately, the silver lining was really strong performance in Fire and Emergency and Commercial Margins this quarter and you folks left the full year margins more or less unchanged. I'm wondering is that a function of now the supply chain headwinds in Access, you're starting to see those same issues hitting your suppliers in those areas? Or is that just a healthy respect for All of them broader supply base and new pieces.
So from a 1st of all, on a commercial front, recall, we do have More price cost headwinds in that segment because there are higher users of steel. So about there's about $10,000,000 of headwind Q3 to Q4 for commercial from a commodities perspective, again, that will normalize just As we've talked about with Access Equipment, with Fire and Emergency, I would just say as you look at the implied incrementals to the 4th quarter, We have a bit of a we have a higher mix of commercial or third party chassis fire apparatus that happened to be delivering in the 4th Quarter versus aerial, so there's a little bit of a year over year mix shift and a little bit of a mix shift from Q3 to Q4, really a timing factor and
Our next question comes from Ross Gilardi with Bank of America.
So how much demand are you seeing from the rental companies for electrified product? Is it primarily for Smaller compact equipment versus curious what's happening with your larger Booms and then just what's the likelihood of maybe even a second leg to this replacement cycle in 3 to 5 years rental company is propelled by their customers to carry more electrified fleet and therefore replace a lot of the ice fleet that they're taking on now prior to the end of its useful life?
So we're Ross, we're seeing of the products that we have introduced as electric To date, we are seeing strong demand, stronger than we had expected or put into our Business plans, which of course is a great sign. I think what we're going to see going forward is Not just in access, but in every single segment that we have. And you see it like the Pierce Volterra, first ever Electric fire truck and it's actually been on 100 and 100 of live runs and performing extremely well. I mean this was going on All over our company. In the Access segment, we think that It will increase in demand at faster rates in certain regions of the world than others, but it's going to increase in demand in all regions.
So in Europe, for example, it tends to be increasing faster. The demand for electrified product tends to be increasing a little faster than it is in the U. S, but we are doing it and very happy with what we're seeing in the U. S. As well.
So what I can tell you is that The demand for these products is real.
All right. And then just on fire and emergency, I mean, you've got this severe drought Out west, you got heightened forest fire risk all over the country. Is this contributing to the order growth you're seeing? If not, why not? But I would think that would be a Pretty material driver of your business.
Well, recall We do wildland firefighting vehicles, but recall that most of our product is municipal Fire apparatus, aerials, pumpers, that type of product. So I would suggest that for the most part, It is not the driving factor of market improvement in fire and emergency for us. But there are some ancillary benefits because we have a small product line that does address wildlife fires and there's maybe certain Not the demand driver for our product. Our demand driver is the aged fleet, new tech Municipality is wanting new technology on their trucks. That kind of thing is what's pushing demand up.
Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.
Thank you. Our next question comes from Felix Boesch with Raymond James. Please proceed with your question.
Hey, good morning, everybody.
Good morning.
Hey, I have a bit of a longer term question. But John, I know you've mentioned aftermarket expansion as a key driver for you over, call it, a multiyear period. I was hoping you could maybe expand on that commentary a little bit, maybe which segments you see the most opportunity going forward and whether or not we Think about that growth as being more organic or inorganically driven given your merchant debt free balance sheet?
Yes. I will tell you that it's a focus across the entire enterprise, number 1, in all of our I think you'll see the biggest areas of focus in our more commercial oriented segments, particularly our Access segment, our Commercial Specialty Vehicle segment. We have plans both organically to serve And grow the market for our product. But we also have inorganic opportunities that we're looking at to drive And increased participation in parts of the aftermarket that we don't participate in today. So it really is on both fronts.
We want to increase the Percentage of sales that are aftermarket driven because we believe this is an area that's Really fundamentally important to our customers, the fleet owners and important to the end user of the product. And we want to continue to make investments where it's ultimately going to support And it's healthy for our company. It's very less cyclical revenue streams and a lot of positives that come from it,
but That's what I
can tell you about.
Got it. And then just a quick follow-up on the Volterra fire truck. Curious if you could maybe expand a little bit on the feedback you've gotten so far or maybe what other customers have said after the rollout or the announcement?
Yes, the CPEC has been phenomenal. The truck has performed incredibly well, as I mentioned in my opening comments. Hundreds of gallons of diesel fuel savings on one truck, you can imagine as we continue to roll this out, How much environmental benefit there is and there's a huge cost benefit for the fire departments as well. The Fire truck itself functions we've spent decades perfecting the performance of an aerial or a pumper where it meets the needs of the firefighter, where they can be really, really productive on a site and they can to the firefighter themselves. We didn't want to change the functionality of the product because they like the functionality of product.
We wanted to change the propulsion, which improves the performance of the vehicle, improves the total cost ownership of the vehicle and improve the environmental sustainability of the vehicle. And that's what we did, but The early returns are fantastic on this product. They're really a great step forward for our Pierce business.
Thank you. Our next question comes from Tanh Doohan with JPMorgan. Please proceed with your question.
Thank you. I appreciate you sneaking me in That's top of the hour. Most of my questions have been answered, but I just wanted to take a step back on Fire and Emergency and ask one of the earlier questions slightly differently. As we look at the transition of the population from urban locations to more to more rural locations and we read about it every day. I wonder if this isn't a bigger driver of demand For fire trucks as some of these smaller communities all around the country are expanding and growing and now have to support Larger populations.
And in that context, could you just remind us what were the sales of fire trucks at the peak of the last cycle? And is there a possibility that we could reach a higher peak next cycle just given the expansion we're seeing around the country?
Scott, Ann, just from a sizing perspective, We were about this segment in total is about $1,200,000,000 segment. So we're not vastly off of what our peak Revenue was in the segment. Now if you look at prior peak total market size of fire apparatus, And this really goes back before the Great Recession. It was a market that was in the low 5000 units per year. It's really not Never recovered from that level.
It's sort of hovered around the mid-four thousand five hundred unit range. So just as we look going I think one of the big drivers, number 1, is aged fleets. We need to continue to replace those. Our customers need to continue to upgrade their fleets for that average fleet age is up in the 14, 15 years right now, which is getting up there. So that's going to continue And of course, the other piece of it is, as you have expansion to other communities, that's going to drive property tax These four properties that really is going to drive demand as well.
So ultimately there's some there are some tailwinds. Obviously, It's great that municipalities been more resilient through the pandemic. So we'll continue to watch as That demand continues to evolve. Of course, municipalities do have some headwinds on the pension front and so on. So there's some gives and takes with it.
But Overall, we like the outlook for that market. But Ann, this is John. I will just say your initial comment about Migration to suburban and or rural areas. I think that that if that Now it's a little too early to tell whether that has any impact at all on the current really healthy rates of orders and backlogs. I think it probably It does not yet, but if it continues, I think you're absolutely right.
I think it's probably very positive, but we need to wait another year or so to really kind of
There are no further questions At this time, I would like to turn the floor back over to John Pfeiffer for any closing comments.
Hey, thanks everyone for joining us. We We are delighted with the business performance and the trajectory of our business. We welcome you to join us This September when we have our Analyst Day, we're going to give you more detail, a little bit more clarity on what we see a little bit longer term in our Business will give you an up close view of some exciting new products, some of which we've talked about today. And so hope to see you in September. Thanks everyone.
This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation. Have a great day.