Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Nov 9, 2020

Hello, and welcome to the Plug Power's Third Quarter 2020 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It's now my pleasure to turn the call over to Teal Hoyos. Teal, please begin. Thank you. Welcome to the Plug Power 20 2Q3 earnings call. This call will include forward looking statements. We intend these forward looking statements to be covered by the Safe Harbor provisions for forward looking statements contained in Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. We believe that it is important to communicate our future expectations to investors. However, investors are cautioned not to unduly rely on forward looking statements because they involve risks and uncertainties and actual results may differ materially from those discussed as a result of various factors, including but not limited to risks and uncertainties discussed under Item 1A Risk Factors in our annual report on Form 10 ks for the fiscal year ending December 31, 2019, as well as other reports we file from time to time with the SEC. These forward looking statements speak only as of the day in which the statements are made, and we do not undertake or intend to update any forward looking statements after this call. At this point, I would like to turn the call over to Plug Power's CEO, Andy Marsh. Thank you, Teal, and thank you for joining Plug Power's 3rd quarter conference call. I'd just like to provide a few minutes overview. Please refer to our investor letter for a detailed description of the past quarter. First, I'd like to highlight our operational performance. Company achieved 126,000,000 dollars in gross billing. This represents 106% increase from the Q3 of 2019. 2nd, this quarter is really a strong validation of our business model in years to come. I think many of you know we're targeting 20 percent EBITDA in 2024. We achieved 19% EBITDA on an adjusted basis this past quarter, generating $21,200,000 of adjusted EBITDA. The cost of warrants greatly increased this past quarter because of our increasing strike price stock price, which can hide this significant achievement. 3rd, and just to highlight the acceleration of our business, in all of 2018, we shipped approximately 5,000 units versus the 4,000 GenDrive units delivered the past quarter. We also built 13 hydrogen fuel stations this quarter, again another record. This business is growing as expected. And we are moving into on road vehicles and large scale backup power systems. First on on road vehicles, we have deals with Linde, Hassan and Lightning. We also have a 4th large OEM, which we are deploying vehicles for testing in Europe. Our approach to the on road vehicle market is really straightforward. Partnerships or ventures with large OEMs, which may require some product modifications on our part for large scale business and standard products for integrators and low volume applications. Now the reason we can do it is because the high density of our ProGen module, which is 30% to 45% higher power density than our competitors, making our products easier for customers to integrate into existing battery electric phases, very similar to our approach to electric forklift trucks. These same ProGen building blocks we've developed for on road vehicles is leveraged into our large scale backup power solution. We have closed deals for this product and we'll be deploying units at the end of Q2 2021. I've become increasingly more excited about this opportunity to both data center customers and now I'm finding logistic customers. The same restrictions limiting deployment of internal combustion engines in certain regions for vehicles, we are now also seeing similar regulations impacting the deployment of diesel generators for large scale backup power systems. Fuel cell and hydrogen because of energy and gravimetric density have the same advantages in the market as on road vehicles versus batteries. Example that had been told from both the logistic customer and the data center customer that the regional restrictions are real. For example, California is forming customers that they must prepare to have 96 hours of backup power because of the instability of the electrical grid. And by the way they say, you can't use diesel gensets. We believe that hydrogen fuel cells are really the only viable solution to meet this requirement. And it's more I think what's more important in my opinion, I think you're hearing end customers say the same. I'd also like to highlight our progress in building 5 green hydrogen plants that will generate 100 tons of green hydrogen by 2024. We have announced partnerships with APEX and Brookfield to provide a source of green hydrogen through solar, wind or hydropower. We're in the design phase for 2 of our new hydrogen plants and expect completion by the end of 2022. We are leveraging our expertise in operating designing plants from our recent Unite acquisition and the ability to convert renewables into green hydrogen from our acquisition of Geener ELS. The demand for green hydrogen is closely tied to our present customers' sustainability goals. Plug Power is projecting that by 2024, our own internal demand will approach 100 times per day. With another note of interest to investors, our Gigafactory is progressing and with the election now over, we expect that announcement will be forthcoming for the location. The equipment to support the Gigafactory is on order and we expect first production in late Q2 2021. And finally, I'd like to highlight that we will be increasing our gross billing target for this year from $310,000,000 to $325,000,000 to $330,000,000 The demand for our products will continue to grow and this will be another record quarter. Paul and I are now ready to take questions. Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question and answer Our first question today is coming from Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer. Your line is now live. Thanks so much and guys congrats on all the progress. Can you guys call it Drew, Andy, it's always good to hear your voice. As you're looking at these hydrogen plants, can you and I know you've done a lot of work on the financing side. Can you just give us an update on where you're at, the number of partners you're thinking about working with on the finance side? And any sort of detail around deal structure that you guys might be looking at this point? So, Colin, I'm going to I can tell you a little and then I'm going to kind of punt on the remainder of your question, but just to kind of give some guidance. We do expect to break ground on 2 of these plants, 1 with APAC, 1 by Brookfield by the end of the year. When we look at the finance side, I probably would be thinking about 30% of the financing being equity and 70% being debt. We are in discussions with not only financial potential financial backers, but also people who are more industrial related. And I would expect that more will be coming in the future. Okay, great. Thanks. And then just shifting to the stationary power opportunity for you guys. Having a product in the market is meaningful. Can you talk a little bit about the customer dynamics? How far through the testing process you are with any of those folks? How big that funnel is and a little bit of detail around the fuel logistics for those gensets? Yes. I think that we're really beginning to do the first deployments in the 2nd quarter call And that we do have both customers in the data center space as well as in the logistics space, which quite honestly, the issues in California really accelerated some of that discussion. I think it's a business that you probably won't see meaningful revenue to 2022. From my perspective, the funnel continues to grow. You see activities not only I've kind of mentioned the logistic operations with our present customers, you see activities with data center customers. You also see activities with people thinking about micro grids. So it's a real interesting opportunity. But you actually hit on a question I spend a lot of time thinking about is that how one thinks about the hydrogen for these solutions and do they become almost depot points also to support other customers. So you could see hydrogen at data center or logistics center being generated on-site, provide backup, but that also could be a point of distribution. And we actually do a model like that for the Southern Company, which during this past hurricane, we've really demonstrated success. So we have 500 small scale backup power system with 500 small scale backup power systems for the Southern Company and we actually service them from 1 or 2 of our customers for distribution customers. So but that is actually one of the more interesting opportunities and because we have uses for hydrogen in so many applications that it kind of it kind of really makes sense because they're system guys and you have to always think about how systems all fit together. That's a real interesting question. Yes, that's incredibly helpful, Andy. Thanks so much and I'll pass it on here. Okay. Thank you. Our next question is coming from Craig Irwin from ROTH Capital Partners. Your line is now live. Good morning and thanks for taking my questions. Good morning, Craig. Hey, Andy. Congrats on a really solid quarter here. I mean, it's nice to see Plug really showing that it can deliver. What I wanted to ask about is the EBITDA. This is a really impressive result. Can you maybe talk about what's going right for you on the earnings side? Where do we need to focus to see whether or not this kind of performance is sustainable over the next couple of quarters? I know your guidance is more conservative and you tend to give conservative guidance. But can you talk us through sort of some of the things you're learning that's allowing you to deliver really strong EBITDA on the bottom line? That's a good question, Craig. And first, I think the easy part of that is delivering on this next 4th quarter for our increasing guidance. But if I then take a step back, I think one of the critical items is the announcement of the next pedestal customer. Jose Crespo, our EVP of Sales is actually working with 4 customers, 2 in Europe, 2 in North America, who could be that next pedestal customer. And if I was monitoring plug, that's an item I would monitor. I would be monitoring are they making an announcement for large scale backup power systems and one road vehicles that could be meaningful to 2024 revenue. So that would kind of be another guidepost I would use. And then I would look at our success. Look, I'm saying we're breaking ground by the end of the year on 2 sites. I would be looking for some meaningful announcements and more details about those 2 sites with hydrogen. So that's kind of my PowerPoint for the next 90, 450 days and those are kind of things I'm looking for to make sure we're on track. Thank you for that. So usually when Wynn Plugs has such a strong quarter like this, the stock responds very favorably, very positively. But the stock is maybe a little bit more tepid than many of us would have expected. It seems like your guidance, the raised gross bookings or gross billings guidance implies $84,000,000 to $89,000,000 in the 4th quarter and consensus is out there at $90,000,000 Can you maybe tell us if there was something pulled forward in the Q3 from the Q4? Is there something seasonal where some of your pedestal customers can't take deliveries in the Thanksgiving, Christmas holiday period because it interrupts their sales. What's going on there with the sequential revenue progression given that you've had such a strong quarter now and it doesn't read as strong? Is this just conservative? Are you just giving us numbers that you're very confident you can make? Yes. Craig, I've learned to be I've done this for a dozen years and I've been less wrong recently than I've been in the past. So I am it's taught me to be conservative. That being said, I think you also make another really valid point. My major customers are in the logistics business associated with the in their big business this season is the holiday season. And during the holiday seasons, they don't want to change everything. They spent all year preparing and so I think you see the mix of customers in the Q4 different and this happens every year. You see more activity in the auto space and manufacturing in the Q4 and we generally see earlier in the year and less in the logistics space. So I think again, this next quarter is going to be incredibly stronger than the Q4 2019. And we see the Q1 2021 increasing dramatically from the Q1 of 2020. So we're seeing the progress all along. Thank you for that color. My next question is about UHG and the 10 C plan. So can you just give us a little bit of color? I guess color is a good pun. Do you consider this a green, gray, blue hydrogen plant, given that you are using waste hydrogen off 1 of Olin Chemical's plants? And can you maybe comment about the carbon intensity of that plant on a relative basis versus the other plants that produce hydrogen for transportation and fuel cells in North America? Sure. So, one, what do I consider? I think it's fair to consider it a blue hydrogen plant. Just and I think, Craig, you mentioned I'm conservative about definitions of definitions. And I think a pure green hydrogen plant is one that is coming from hydropower, coming from wind, coming from solar. Even though, look, we play in Tennessee that hydrogen just be burned off in the air if we weren't using it. From a CI score, we're actually doing a deep, deep dive at the moment. And our goal is to see I score for that plant that we get to about a 50 CI score and at the pump. And now our other goal is that Craig, we're looking to ultimately deliver that hydrogen using fuel cells and green fuel cells and green hydrogen to bring it to the customer. So there is a less of an impact from wheels to wheels. But look forward to telling you more about that. We're having a detailed study going on at the moment. Hello? Thank you. Our next question is coming from Eric Stine from Craig Hallum. Your line is now live. Hi, Andy. Hi, Eric. How are you? I'm doing fine. How are you? Good. Good. So I jumped on a little late. I apologize if I'm going to cover some things you already have. But, so curious on the I know you've talked about 4 on road programs you're targeting mid-twenty 1, where we could see some movement there and where it could start to contribute to revenues. But I know you're also talking about a large OEM in Europe. So I mean curious, is this a is that one of those 4? Is this a new customer, or partner? And then maybe what we can look for as part of that relationship? Sure. So it is one of the 4, Eric. And before you joined the call, I mentioned we have deals going on with Linde, Goose and Lightning at the moment. We have the 4th OEM. When I think about this market, I think about there's going to be 2 channels, mainly the market for us. 1 is partnerships or ventures with the large OEMs. And another one is leveraging our standard products to the integrators. I don't want to be those 4 programs are ongoing, 2 in Europe, 2 in the U. S. Look forward to making more announcements as soon as possible. But these discussions always take slightly longer than I expect. I can tell you I expected to announce the United deal in early March and I announced it in early June or late June. So I've learned to be a little cautious, but meaningful discussions and plans are ongoing and hope to be telling you more about it soon. Got it. Okay. And then last one for me, just on pedestal customers. You've talked about that you hope to sign 1 by the end of 2020. Curious if that's still the outlook? And then, I mean, is it still I think you've said in the past that to get to your 2024 goals, that you'd target 6% to 7% in total, wondering if that's still the number as well? Yes, I think the number is 6. And so earlier in the call, I mentioned that Jose is working with Jose Cresco, our EVP of Sales, is working with 2 potential pedestal store customers in United States, 2 in Europe and we still expect that we'll have one done by year end. Okay. And you said 6% is kind of the number you're targeting for 2024? That's correct. Okay. Thanks a lot. Okay. Thanks, Eric. Thank you. Our next question today is coming from Christopher Seller from B. Riley. Your line is now live. Hey guys, thanks for taking the question. First, I wanted to see if you could walk through some of the warrant mechanics. As of the second quarter, about half of the Amazon warrants had vested and a smaller portion of the Walmart ones had. I thought these were typically more paid in installments as those tranches hit. Was this just a matter of very large orders during the quarter or exercises of some of those warrants. Could you kind of remind us how the math works on that? Sure. I'm going to tell you I'm going to start off and then I'm going to hand it off to Paul, Chris. So the warrants actually get charged against each order. So, I know this may be hard for folks to understand, the higher warrant charges, which is a non cash event, it's actually a real positive. So one of our pedestal customers in the Q3 actually exceeded the tranche where the warrant price gets reset. And the warrant price is reset at a rate that's actually 10x higher in cost than the original warrants, which is a real good item since those warrants strike prices over $13 versus the original strike price of $1.19 What it really says with these increased warrant charges is that you've seen increased purchases of our products. And I think from the last time I would highlight the fact that the stock is doing so well and the fact that those strike price for the warrants is now 11 times, 12 times higher, it ultimately means less dilution for shareholders. So, it's somewhat hard to see maybe in GAAP financials all the time. This less dilution is really, really good and something we negotiated 3 years ago to protect shareholders and it's really proven now. So Paul, would you like to add to this from an accounting point of view? Yes. I think you covered it, Andy. It's really two factors in terms of the jump in the cost rate from a GAAP basis, which is increased purchases and then moving into the final tranche, which now the price has been set and because it's 10x, we use the Black Scholes methodology, which is the proven accounting approach to use. And those are worth the cost value is higher. So you just get a book effect, which as Andy said is non cash, but those are the two drivers that drove that increase. And that's why you see the delta change in the quarter. Got it. And then on the opportunity within backup power stations, you had targeted that as a portion of the $250,000,000 by 2020 4. Maybe just from a high level, do you see this progressing similar to material handling where it's several key customers that are going to be doing the lion's share? And how many customers do you think you'd need to hit those longer term targets? Is it going to be kind of announcements like that, that give visibility? I just want to get an idea of what the ramp in pipeline should look like there. Chris, that's a good question. And I think there are some differences. One, I think you're absolutely right that the initial ramp of that business will be more associated with large customers or large owners of data centers. Yes, I think you know some of those names. And I think that'll be the initial success, but as well as maybe with some of our present logistic customers. I think ultimately large scale diesel generators are going to have more and more, I'll say, policy pressure and customer pressures. And that I think that you'll see more and more enterprise opportunities, take a hotel where you may have a large scale diesel generator set today in a city that won't allow it anymore. And thinking through those models and how to go to market probably is a post 2024 activity. I do think it's a really a large market opportunity, which will first take off with big customers, take off because of policy, both the customers' policies and government policies. And it's a real, real interesting opportunity. That's helpful. And then just last one. I wanted to see if you could walk through some of the moving pieces on the fuel margins. Obviously, the sales are up, but the gross margins were down. I assume United Hydrogen is added in there. I was curious if there are any kind of one time items or how we should think about kind of the ramp in margins over the next few quarters there as you start to make a dent with some of the integration of green hydrogen strategies? Paul, do you want to talk about the margins because I think the margins probably are better on a non GAAP basis? Yes. If you look on a non GAAP basis, it was effectively breakeven for the quarter. And I think what you're seeing is the benefit of the United Hydrogen starting to kick in. And as we've talked publicly, we're actually investing to ramp additional capacity out of that existing facility. And as that starts to kick in and we're able to utilize that, you'll see continued progression. And I think as we move into next year, we're actually thinking I mean, we're continuing to invest in increased efficiencies in the systems, making big strides. So I think directionally, you're going to continue to see great leverage in that product line as we start to leverage the existing facility we have, leverage the existing capacity we have, invest in efficiencies. And then as early 'twenty three, when the new capacity comes online, there'll be again another big step function. So we're pleased with the direction that we're making and the efforts, and I think you're going to continue to see that continue to play out. Understood. Thanks for the color there. I'll hop back in the queue. Thank you. Our next question is coming from Jed Dorsheimer from Canaccord Genuity. Your line is now live. Hi, Jed. Hi, thanks. Hey, guys. Couple of questions. I guess, Andy, first, if I just kind of read between the lines, you sound a lot more bullish and optimistic that I've heard than I've heard in the past. So it could just be me misunderstanding, but around backup power. And so I guess I just wanted to unpack that a little bit and I'm curious, is your optimism more market dynamics in terms of what you've seen unfold over the past 90 days or so? Or has it have more to do with your 2 acquisitions? Because I would think that maybe United and Gynor would is that what changed it or you always been this bullish and I've just wasn't paying attention to that? Jed, I think your read of me is correct. If you would have sat down with me a year and a half ago, you would have never heard me be so positive about the backup power market. And I think what primarily changed is that I'm hearing it from customers, people who would be users of these products. So I so I'll give you an example. When National Hydrogen Day, which I'm sure everyone here celebrated, I was on a panel with Microsoft and Microsoft explained why Hydrogen was the right solution for data centers in the future. And they're believing that it'd be cost competitive with internal combustion engines by 2024. I think it's those sort of bullish notions. I also hear from our logistic customers. And then finally, I think you hit on another point that our ability to provide a full system solution with electrolyzers as well as ability now to distribute hydrogen, which I think is going to be important for large scale backup power as all the combination of both of them have made me more bullish about this market. Got it. I wonder, I think one of the challenges for you and other companies in this space is changing the conversation. You had just mentioned in terms of compared to traditional internal combustible, But it seems like the efficiency compare as well as even the negative externalities really isn't the competition. So for example, in the battery backup, and this is why I asked the question, and in particular, the your acquisition of United. The fact that when you look at the complexity of the grid and the fact that in California, utilities are actually shutting off solar in the middle of the day to keep from substations blowing up, that, that generation and those electrons could be used somewhere to gain some value versus just shuttering it that therefore your comparison is to I would think akin to driving through Trenton and looking at the flaring of refineries that energy is just going into the sky. And in the same way, hydrogen seems like that's the lowest hanging fruit. So you don't get in this really physics ending conversation comparing the storage to that of lithium ion or other storage solutions where hydrogen has a lower down conversion in the round trip of that energy? Yes. I think that's an interesting point, Jed. When I think about it, so let's take it I'm going to answer your question too. First, I think you hit on a very valuable point. So 2 other points. One thinks about storage. There's been significant work done by people like Jack Brower, UC Irvine, by the DOE that kind of shows that from a energy density point of view, from a cost point of view that after about 11 hours, hydrogen is the best storage medium. In a place like California, you not only have to think about inter day storage, but long term seasonal storage. I think the other point I would make is that when you take think about short term storage and you're creating it to put to hydrogen, for example, in California, The value of that hydrogen as a fuel, which is really needed, is actually more valuable than going back into the grid or being pumped into natural gas line. So I think when you think about fuel cells and hydrogen for long term storage, hydrogen is really clear. But for sure term storage, it actually may create more value using hydrogen as a fuel piece of the using hydrogen just creating back to electricity and putting it on the grid. Got it. So I guess where I'm going with all this is, as you think of the business and you think of the you've provided targets in 2024 that was largely based on a model that was primarily that of fuel cells with a slight contribution in terms of hydrogen production. Are you rethinking that in the context of these this increased optimism with respect to hydrogen production, which seems to and backup, which seems to be skewed more heavily to that of the production, as you just mentioned, in terms of short term and the value of that fuel that's being created. And then I do have 2 more follow ups. Sure. So, Jed, we think every day about how to accelerate the growth of the business. And having done this for a dozen years, we try to make sure we focus on put numbers out there that we feel comfortable with that we can hit so that I don't have a bad earnings call. That being said, I think we're just beginning to touch on the value of hydrogen in the marketplace. And when I think about it, it's almost like I think this is going to be a play in market where folks who like wireless networks who build out the hydrogen generation, that's green, We'll get it fastest. We'll get an unfair share of the market. And our goal is to get an unfair share of the market. Got it. So two questions for Paul. Thank you, Andy, by the way. No, you're welcome, Ed. First question is just how to think of, you're beating on billings as well as increasing outlook on billings, but revenue is in line. And I'm just wondering, should we think about this quarter is indicative in terms of the ratio between revenue rec and billings or was this an anomaly? Well, gross billings for us is gross revenue equivalent, it's just a term that we use. So the only difference is the warrant charges in terms of how that's reflected in the financials. So the gross billings reflect the really the commercial revenues that I've recognized in the quarter. So the traction that you're seeing is directly correlated to the activity underlying the business. So it's, I think from a modeling standpoint, I think we can give talk about percentage of sales and stuff like we've done in the past, and how that might play out in the future. But from an underlying business perspective and then just understanding the dynamics, think about that being a true reflection of the shipments and deliveries that we made in the quarter. And as we progress, I think they'll continue to be correlated. I hope that's helpful, Ted. It is. Got it. My mistake on that. So second question and last one for me. So Paul, you were quoted in terms of saying that, I think in a publication, one of the most important things, for Plug would be that of the ICC tax credits for vendor financing. And with the administration change, which would seem to put into a scenario analysis of more favorable spin to your outlook. I'm just wondering if you could just expand upon that because it seems like for me it was the first time that I heard that from you guys. And I'm just wondering how if you could articulate, I'm assuming that that's for your customers financing the equipment, but I was wondering if you could just speak to that a little bit. Yes. I think there's many factors in general. I mean, I think it's one as opposed to maybe the most important, but I would say, the most efficient place to monetize the tax benefits and finance the projects is in the traditional bank market. It's where our customers often go to for those that use traditional models. I mean, a lot of customers lease their trailers and their forklifts and their other operation asset and they all and 2, they often lease their forklift, the fuel cell systems. And so because it's eligible for the investment tax credit that goes to traditional market, the traditional banks, but what you've seen this year is in the market in general, and this is true for solar and wind and others is that a lot of the banks have had losses from COVID and other effects going on in the market. And obviously, when you reduce your taxable income, you kind of impact the available investment tax capacity in the market. So I think as we go forward, I think my discussion previously when the quotes I think were around ways that things could be beneficial. Obviously, 1st and foremost, economy picks up, the banks will have more income. Secondly, things like the 1603 grants, if they were to reinstate that, that's a big change in terms of benefits of being able to access the market, not dependent on having the taxable income to be able to take the credits. So it's more about just making it easier to access the banks and for not just for cloud, but customers in general and those things can be enablers. But fortunately, we've got enough traction outside of that, that it's not the sole factor, I guess, the best way to think about it is just one of many dynamics. And we've had many customers who sign on and don't take the tax credits and still yield tremendous benefits in the programs. And so, as I said, it's just one of many dynamics that we think about in terms of opportunities. Thank you. Our next question today is coming from Amit Dayal from H. C. Wainwright. Your line is now live. Hi, Amit. Hi, Amit. Hi, Amit. Hi. Good morning. Andy. Thank you for taking my questions. Congrats on a strong quarter by the way. For the 2 plants, Andy, you are breaking ground on. Could you give us a sense of the sort of the completion timeframe? And then how should we think about utilization levels ramping at these facilities? Sure. So, 2 plants, 1 which will be in the Northeast and 1 which will be in the Southwest, And it will come online in the second half of twenty twenty two, probably Q4 2022. And we would expect that those plants would be fully utilized, I would say, by early 2024. Understood. Thank you for that. And do you have a sense of maybe sort of the margin impact from these plants getting to full utilization in the 2024 period? Yes. So full utilization, we expect these plants to be in line with the 30% to 35% gross margin. Wow. Thank you. That's very helpful. And just sort of when we look at these warrants, right, previously, there seem to be a little bit of an overhang, but do you feel these are now sort of little bit of an edge protecting or has protected the business from maybe competitors, etcetera, given that these large industrial customers were tied to just not really being able to go to anybody else but you guys? I think the key item is that we need to perform for our customers every day and focus on providing our customers value. And it's that's really next to preparing for calls like this, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the warrants. I think about how to keep on making sure that Plug Power is delivering value for our customers. Just one last one. With respect to sort of your 2024, 2025 guidance, what's the contribution from Europe expected to be towards that guidance? Yes. I would expect Europe if I look at next year, I think Europe contributes 10% of our revenue. And I would think by 2024, you can expect it to be in the 15% to 20% range. Understood. That's all I have Andy. Thank you so much. All right. Take it easy, Amit. Thank you. Our next question today is coming from Moses Sutton from Barclays. Your line is now live. Congrats on all the execution. Hi, how's it going, Andy? Okay, Moses. You're last but not least, Moses. Thank you very much. Appreciate squeezing in at the end here. And apologies if I missed this before, but did you provide 2021 adjusted EBITDA target or just even if you could speak more generally, is the EBITDA margin going to be above 15%? Are we looking at $60,000,000 $70,000,000 dollars range off of the $450,000,000 in billings? Any sort of directional view there would be quite helpful. Thanks. Paul, are you there? Yes, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if you want me to respond. We haven't given that guidance, Moses. I mean, I think, I guess, at this point, what I can tell you is it will definitely be higher. But we haven't really provided that. We know we see the pipeline, the sales are going to be higher and we see continued progression in margin profiles for all our product lines. So we're very confident that we'll continue to be accretive and go up, but we haven't given a specific range yet. We have a business plan that's in for scheduled for January end of January as we do every year. And at that point, we might be in a better position to give you more specificity. Great. Looking forward to that. And maybe to I guess end the call here on this really out there question. Would you ever consider integrating some ownership of solar and wind assets, truly controlling the full integration from electricity generation to hydrogen production and its use, maybe there could be some synergies there. These assets are easy to operate with third parties. Why not control the very full process ultimately one day? But I know that's an out there question for you, Andy. Well, Moses, I think we've bitten off enough with our plans at the moment. And when you have such good partners like Apex and Brookfield, I don't see any need to get into their business. So our plan at the moment is to work with partners. And I think, as you know, this is this activity is being driven by Sanjay Shrestha. And Sanjay has been really been working with folks to make sure we have rates which allows us to generate competitive green hydrogen. Great, great. Exciting stuff. Thanks again. Okay. Thank you, Moses. Thank you. We've reached the end of our question and answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over to Andy for any further or closing comments. Well, thank you, everyone. I really enjoyed our discussion today. We're really pleased with the quarter. It's going to be another great Q4 and look forward to talking to many of you in the near future. Thank you. Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.