I'm Mark Mahaney, part of the Internet equity research team here at Evercore. Thrilled to have Dave Wright, the Chief Executive Officer and co-founder of Pattern. We're going to go through a couple of questions for the next 40 minutes. I apologize for my voice. I gave the commencement address this weekend at one of my alma maters, and I talked about AI, and all of a sudden I had to deal with hecklers for the next 30 minutes.
Y ou got some booing.
Yeah, I did, and I had to talk over that. It was my elementary school commencement address. Those kids, they just...
I was there at the University of Arizona. My daughter graduated from there a few weeks ago. Eric Schmidt presented.
Oh, you were there for that? Okay.
That was a sort of eye-opening awakening for me because it wasn't just a few kids, it was the general audience. It's becoming quite a social issue.
That's unfortunate. Depends, did Schmidt say, "AI's going to take all of your jobs. Why'd you bother getting a degree?
Well, the unfortunate thing was, I was super excited to hear from him. He stood up, and from him standing up, it was boos.
Oh.
He'd say things like, "Let me make this point." The second he tried to say something like that, it was astounding.
Wow, okay. Well, we're not bringing him in, obviously. All right, David, let's level set a little bit here. You're one of our top stock picks. One of the reasons I really enjoy covering small caps because you have a lot of undiscovered names. That means there's a lot of inefficiencies usually in a market. Creates a lot of opportunity for people who want to really dig in, do the work, understand the story. Anyway, I think this is one of those cases with Pattern. Just level set us. Why'd you start this business? How'd you name it? Just give us the two minutes overview on what Pattern's role is.
Sure. Yeah, I wish I would've named it Pattern from the beginning. I didn't. My idea was iServe. You know, a little I. It was sort of popular at the time. My background was all on the tech data engineering side. I got started because my cousin started this little girls' headband brand. I was just reviewing data for her. She was talking about a word I didn't know, which was ROAS. I'd never sold a widget. I didn't really like advertising and salespeople. Her reported ROAS, I was evaluating it and others, and trying to figure out, okay, what is the right answer on a return on ad spend to know how much a brand should invest? Is there a way we could approach this from a data perspective? That started it. Now we have 41 patents.
We help brands across 72 + marketplaces all around the world. We're essentially this thin layer that sits in between a brand and global marketplace infrastructure that will help them with logistics. Every aspect of the e-commerce formula, which would be, for a brand, the keys to revenue is traffic, getting an eyeball to see your product somewhere, converting it when they're there, availability of that good in that region, and then whatever price. That's the formula. We built our whole tech stack on that. Then along came our legit CRO and CMO, and they had that chat with me where they're like, "Hey, Dave, the iServe name, not so good. We have a few ideas." One of them was Continuum, which I quite liked, and the other one was Pattern, and I voted for Continuum. They said, "Dave, trust me, we're right. It should be Pattern." Here we are.
That's good. Then you're trying to be what do you call it? One in a box or all in a box.
E-commerce accelerator.
Accelerator?
Yeah.
You started off, and you still are very heavily focused on Amazon. I remember when I've heard the Shopify pitch for quite some time, and I remember there was somebody in the audience here who gave me the first pitch on Pattern, and I'd been thinking for years, there's massive marketplaces. Like, that's where the vast majority of sales are going to be, I guess you sort of thought that too. That's why your biggest end market right now is Amazon, although it's becoming a little bit smaller. Just the light bulb that caused you to say, "We need to optimize for Amazon.
Well, it was just where the consumers were. I mean.
Oh, you wanted to be where the consumers were?
Yeah, we didn't really care. If you take Amazon and Mercado Libre in Mexico, say, they're about 50/50. For a Pattern, we're just a thin layer. We'll represent a brand like a Pandora jewelry, and we don't really care who wins of those two. We're just trying to help the brand win, which was a paradigm that no one else was doing.
Okay. I also think what's happened is that there's, just on the Amazon marketplace, because that's where a lot of consumers are, the level of complexity for merchants has risen materially. I love some of these statistics. The number of FBA price points has gone from like almost 80 to 540. Storage inbound, all of the different price points and programs and offerings have, like, I don't know, gone up 10x in the last four or five years. Is that something you're helping people solve for? Just the increasing complexity of the Amazon marketplace?
Yeah. I don't think an Amazon particularly intends to do it. It's just in the process of business maturity and then efficiency, they'll do things like their regional network, where they say, "Hey," when we first started in 2013, we would send all of our goods, at least the ones that went to Amazon, to one location, and then they would split it across their network, which was not nearly as complex. I remember when they came out and said, "Hey, you need to send to three locations." I was like, "What?" They would mandate how many units of each went where. That meant for us, we had to break down the packaging of a brand, say, that were in boxes of, say, 12, we had to pull four out of here and four out of here.
For a brand and a seller, that was materially difficult, and I complained endlessly about it. Now it's 14-18 that a brand needs to send to. For Amazon, it makes sense, right? They're getting it closer to the consumer. For a brand or a seller, it is very costly and highly complex. For a Pattern Group, right now, we do 95% full truckload to all of those locations at an average inbound cost of $0.11 for every unit.
If that falls off of a full truckload, which for us is 95% of the time, so most of it's $0.44 our cost. Think if you're a brand, even a big brand, to try to do a weekly inbound, and get full truckloads to all their regional nodes, near impossible. That's just one point of scale where Pattern becomes not only better at growing, but more efficient and maybe even cost savings for them.
Have you become one of the biggest partners, accelerators on the Amazon platform in the marketplace?
Yeah. From what I understand, we're the largest, and I don't think it's close.
Okay. Talk a little bit about your diversification away from Amazon. I know Coupang's up there, at least you mention them on the public calls, TikTok Shop, Walmart. What else? Just talk about the ease with which you can roll out onto other marketplaces.
Yeah. I don't think we're chasing the diversification, I think, as much as everyone thinks we are. It shows amazing in our numbers, but again, we're just going where the consumers are. It makes sense. Amazon is quite dominant in the U.S., but the more we penetrate outside the U.S. and just get broader, and it's getting to be a little bit more competitive of a landscape. TikTok Shop is making a great entry into the U.S. and has done pretty phenomenal in Douyin in China. We just continue to accelerate across all the platforms. Our non-Amazon growth is 109%. Outside of Amazon last quarter at least was 101%. We continue just to diversify, but it's almost more natural than forced. As we mature, I think you just continue to see that more and more.
Okay. When we started off, you started talking about the different value propositions or what you're offering to merchants and manufacturers, and you mentioned traffic and conversion, availability of product and price. What do you think is the strongest value proposition that you offer? What makes you the must partner for most of the merchants you work with? Is it all of those equally, or is there something in particular you think you solve for them better than others, other things?
If you're sitting in a brand seat, they want profitable growth. What you have to give them as an accelerator for a Pattern is exposure to global markets, just more consumers. You have to execute better at a price point they're willing to accept. That's where scale helps. Imagine if you're a brand and you say, we have many of our brands that are sitting across 30 marketplaces, and the technology is tuned for, how do I drive traffic across all of the different variables? If you think just Amazon, you're like, "Okay, what do I do with Prime Video?" They just introduced sponsored prompts. They just renamed Rufus to Alexa for Shopping.
That day?
Yeah.
Oh.
If you're a brand, you're trying to even keep up with. They have some really talented people there, and the diversity and complexity is just growing. To be able to do it at a price point, a Pattern can do it. I think a brand, when they partner with us, is near price neutral, and I personally believe that a brand could not begin to operate at the same price point, same efficiency that we do. In a way, it's the whole thing. Can I get more traffic? Can I convert that traffic? Can I make my goods available in region? I want more same day than I want two-day plus. All of those things combined just leads to better outcomes for brands at a better price point.
As you keep continuing to scale, does that price point keep coming down?
Yep. Yeah, that is part of the magic of anybody in our type of business is, it's why we've actually started selling that logistics middle-mile layer by itself. We will now have more trucks leaving our facilities with non-Pattern-owned goods than Pattern-owned. That crossed a little bit ago. We get better price points for all of our partner brands, and we just continue to get that. We track what we call, cost to serve.
For every dollar of revenue, we don't make it a public number, for every dollar of revenue, we say, how many cents does it cost us to run that machine, both in the U.S. and outside the U.S. Those numbers for us have reduced 30%-40%. A brand still has to figure out how to do that, and can they? Will it ever have the scale to I don't know if you can run a single brand all over the world and make money without a partner.
That 30%-40% reduction roughly, is that over a couple of year time?
Yeah. A number of years.
Okay. I didn't think about this before, but what is the implication, does it have any meaning at all for your business, the launch of Amazon's supply chain services, ASCS? Does that mean anything to you?
Yeah. It's interesting. It's a lot of rebranding and repackaging of things that they've had previously. We like the consolidation. It allows you to negotiate a price point across the ecosystem. Amazon Air has been unavailable for anybody except Amazon until that offering. There's some interesting points about it, especially for big companies like us or a big brand that can take advantage of more volume pricing. It can be compelling.
That's right. Your Pattern Summit, that you had, and Natalie was there, you had somebody from ASCS there. This is a tailwind to your business?
Anytime you introduce a level of complexity, there's quite a few other marketplaces that are chasing similar offerings. The harder it is for a brand to wade through it, and the more difficult it is to get to a level of volume where you can get a price point that they're comfortable with, all of those things. I will say, even the surface area of even agentic has thrown a level of complexity in for a brand that is an absolute must to manage, but it's a surface area because you can't stop doing anything you used to before. Like all of the ways consumer buys a good still exist, now we have an entire new surface area on both of those things.
Okay. One way or another, I was going to somehow figure out how to bring up agentic commerce and AI. How do you think about AI for your business? My guess is you're going to respond that we've been deploying AI and machine learning for a decade, so we're kind of there. Is there something else that you think investors should know about what agentic commerce means for your business?
Well, you know what's funny on the AI front is we actually got our first patent. We submitted it was a machine learning patent, which fell under the AI umbrella. Back then, we never wanted to call it AI because it was sort of frowned on. Now it's the buzzword for everything. As those models have matured, it was really the transformer model that changed our business entirely. We just considered that pure luck because it's what we're naturally inclined to be good at.
Then, the technology happened to arrive on the scene that if you think companies and businesses that are content-centric, where small changes in content, messaging, can move millions or billions of dollars one way or the other. E-com, I think people are not quite thinking the impact that LLMs will have on e-com. To be fair, I was very bullish that within months, people are going to be shopping via chat inside a conversation, right?
Yeah.
I remember our first call with all the analysts, like nine of the 10 questions were like agentic commerce. Now everyone's like, "Well, I guess we'll see how that evolves." That has evolved a little slower than I thought. The mechanics of how a consumer finds products is super material still for brands, and the level of transparency that they're seeing in product quality, customer service, say/do factor on logistics. When you said it was going to be there, was it there? Those metrics I think will be held and tracked in memory, and brands aren't quite realizing the brands that have focused on the consumer, high quality, the upside for them, I believe over the next five years, will be enormous.
Why do you think it hasn't taken off as quickly as you thought?
I just think that, OpenAI, you saw them retreat a little bit.
Yeah.
Google, UCP is still hanging in there, Gemini saying, "Hey, we're going to do it." The problem is, it's hard. If you're OpenAI, we went and chatted with them about it, just one of the big problems is say they serve up a, you ask a question like, "Give me a small blanket that'll fit underneath my seat on an airplane," or whatever. For one, you have the semantic content model, where if you don't have enough data to know the dimensions of that blanket, you might just get left out of the conversation entirely, you have to tune all of those things. They're good at that. If you just say, "Hey, is this blanket in stock?" I think they thought, "Well, that's an easy question," it's not easy. Someone has to handle the logistics after.
This is where Pattern could get very interesting, is where we're positioning ourselves as a return has to be processed, customer service has to happen, logistics has to occur. I think we're in an era where I think it will go slowly and allow quite a few companies to adapt and position themselves really well, and that's where we're headed.
Okay. I want to ask you about two types of diversification. First, talk about how we should think about your diversification away from Amazon. Nothing wrong with being on Amazon, but diversification is a good thing. I think you mentioned your off-Amazon sales are growing, whatever, 100% + or something year-over-year.
Yeah, 119%.
Are there enough new budding partnerships, TikTok Shop, Walmart, Coupang, whatever, Mercado Libre, that we should expect? I assume Amazon's going to continue to grow at a high pace, but should we expect continued diversification away from Amazon over the next three to five years?
Probably the best way to think about it, I think, is just GMV. Where is GMV around the world? If you think just China, which owns a really significant portion of digital economy, Amazon is largely, if not entirely irrelevant there. If Amazon were in China, we would gladly embrace it and continue to double down there. Amazon is doing a good job in Europe, there's quite a few players there that create some, I guess, diversification opportunity. If you look worldwide, Amazon is a significant chunk of that world, we love partnering with Amazon, I think you will see continued diversification simply because that's where the consumers are.
Is there an opportunity for you in China itself?
Oh, yeah.
How do you do that? Who are you working with to get there?
We have probably 200+ people there. We have three offices there. We've been there for many years, probably since 2020-ish. Yeah, very significant marketplace for us. We also have a really interesting concept, what we call East to West, where we're working with the manufacturers of goods there because they have high quality. If you think of it in terms of what makes customers happy, high quality, good lower prices. I think it's frowned upon sometimes. A lot of it is. Many of those products, they produce some of the best brands in the world. The manufacturers that are there, we estimate 30%-ish of the goods sold on Amazon are manufactured in China, probably north of that. Matter of fact, we had a fun story where I had this guy rolled up to Pattern, and he had a little wagon.
He had some goods there. At first, I didn't want to talk to him. Somebody who could converse in Mandarin talked to him, and he's like, "He's doing $3 billion in sales." He's provider for a lot of the sound brands that you would recognize. He has his own brand, he wants to see what we could do. I was like, "Okay, this is very interesting." Since then, we have a team over in China that is working with manufacturers to bring in both the U.S. and other geographies. That's some of our larger deals in the last year or two have been from that effort.
People do IPOs for a variety of different reasons. One reason is to really use it as a bit of a marketing event, so more people, consumers, and enterprises get to know about them. Did you find that to be the case? Have you reached a point where you've just gotten a lot more inbounds over the last 12 months, or has it just been nothing wrong with it, or it's just been a steady build over time? Did your accelerator get accelerated by the IPO?
Yeah. It did. I wasn't sure if it was going to, but it was material, and I guess that's just becoming known. That was a positive net effect of that IPO.
It's good to be a public company. There are some advantages to that. Thoughtful analysts, all that kind of stuff. Diversification away from, I think, the mineral supplements and vitamins has been a large category in the past. It made sense. Relatively easy to handle the logistics of. Talk about the diversification you've had away from.
The health and wellness?
Beyond that. Yes, health and wellness.
Well, maybe, if you don't mind, I'll just start with how we got there. When we started in 2013, we just happened to land with a few vitamin mineral supplement companies, essential oils, and I was, as I've said, quite negative on sales and marketing in general. We started getting to a point where I started saying, "I think we might be able to hit $1 billion in revenue with one sales guy." I was like, "If the machine works, then people will come." That happened. We were successful for some of these brands, and they all have these market share tools they would watch. They would say, "Okay, what's that brand doing?" They would call us. We got a lot of inbound that way.
It turns out, though, it was all in health and wellness because no one in sports and outdoors was watching how we were doing. We ended up with an outsized number of health and wellness brands because of that model. When we took our Series A, they said, "Hey, this one sales guy approach, fine, but let's beef up the sales team," which we did. We started selling into other categories. We love that category, and we continue to sell into it quite well. Our model works with any type of category. It's irrelevant as to the type. We just happened to start there.
Okay. Are there particular things that make sense, I think? Are there particular extensions that have really proven that point? Like, "Yes, but you should see how well we've done in this category that is in health and wellness." If you were talking about the most successful verticals that aren't health and wellness on your platform, what would they be?
I think, the do-it-yourself, which more in the tools category, is growing triple-digit. Beauty is growing triple-digit. They're growing faster than that core health and wellness category simply because they're on a smaller base. I said many times, I even said at a beauty conference, I'm like, "It doesn't matter if it's lipstick or a shovel from a math perspective." I got feedback after that from some of the attendees of the beauty conference, maybe that, "Maybe we don't use that analogy at the beauty conference." From a math perspective, that is truly the case. It's just a matter of time until we continue to expand out in those categories.
One of the more impressive numbers, this is a past number that I want to ask a long-term question, but it's this 127% net revenue retention that you had in the March quarter. That's a record high, I think it's well above some of that long-term targets that some people have been leading the street to think about. I don't know, is there anything that you think is unsustainable about that kind of level of net revenue retention?
I mean, yeah. I just think, we don't have anything particular to say that's unsustainable. If you just think about the dynamics of digital, global digital shopping is growing, it depends on the source, say, 7%-10%, right? If we're taking our existing brands and growing them, and that includes any brand that happens to leave our platform and go somewhere else, is in that net revenue retention number. To sustain 127 is almost three times the growth of digital. What we're guiding is we would be pretty happy at a 115 number. Now, we're even more happy at 127, but we think that a 115 is really a phenomenal outcome given those dynamics. We continue to innovate on the technology side. Our partners continue to stay with us. The machine continues to work, and we continue to produce results that are amazing.
If you think about it in those terms, I think that 115 is a number we would be pretty happy with long term.
Okay. Let me ask you two or three last questions, and then if anybody wants to ask a question. Social commerce, is there something different about social places like TikTok Shop? Is there something different about those platforms in terms of what you can provide? Is it, social's social, it's pretty much the same?
Yeah. I guess you just don't underestimate the power on the social side. We met with an executive from TikTok Shop, he essentially said, "Hey, in China, we expect to be the largest marketplace by, say, 2027." They've made great strides that way. They've passed, in terms of total GMV, some very big players. I essentially said, "But in the U.S., Amazon's a logistics moat. I'm not sure you're going to be able to play here." He says, "If I can get people to spend time on my platform, I can sell to them." He's like, "And I've proven it." I think you're watching them prove it again. You start dissecting that world, and you say, "Okay, what causes success and failure there?" You can see a lot of brands. We've essentially, you can dissect it in the content.
We'll take a piece of content. We have a product we call TrendVision on our technology side, and we'll take a piece of content, which would be video, and there's thousands upon thousands of them. We're doing 3,000 or 4,000 videos a day that we put on the platform. It gives us a great testing space. You can break them down. You can essentially say, "What happens in the first three seconds that makes Mark watch it, versus he didn't continue watching the other nine?" We call that the hook archetype. We log it. We're like, "Okay, for this brand consumer, was it a question?" The question archetype is a powerful one. Did they make a bold statement? What was it? We'll log that, and then we'll start looking at the content archetype and what the discussion was. Was it more technical in nature?
We'll build what we call a recipe, based on other success for a brand that is a like brand, and then we'll produce that for a given brand. Data can drive, being able to take all of that data and analyze it, to then create and tell a creator, "Hey, you don't have to do it this way, but here are some things we've seen in the data," and it provides a very positive result. I think it's resulted in us. We were named the TikTok Shop Strategic Partner of the Year. We've had great success there, and they've been a phenomenal partner. I think you'll continue to see data and technology influence social more than what you might expect.
Actually, you've spurred a side question, and we talked about AI a little bit earlier. I would assume, is there any metrics you've disclosed about how your productivity has improved because of AI, generative AI, just the last year or two?
Well, we don't disclose them. That would be found in our cost to serve numbers that I had indicated earlier are drastically better.
Okay, good enough. Two last questions. There's this long-term opportunity I think you have, is sort of building out a SaaS business. There's some tools out there like Destiny, ContentBrief, and Portal. Talk about these, maybe talk a little bit about are those as standalone products perhaps, and the long-term potential SaaS opportunity.
Well, we rolled all those tools, in our last conference, we released what we call PIE, Pattern Intelligence Layer, which essentially takes the ContentBrief Destiny, a lot of that ad tech, and rolls it into a common interface for a brand that is both natural language, then we push certain metrics, dashboards, essentially an artifact to them that they can either tune or view. Then if they want to change a piece of content, they can see all the data behind it. They can say, "Hey, can you change this for me on that marketplace, that one, and the other?" It will kick off a sensor actor framework behind the scenes. We will try to execute it via API. If it fails, we'll drop it to an Asana queue. It'll go to a team in India.
They'll execute it, or even in the U.S., and drop it back onto a queue. Essentially, it's a model where with natural language, you can both consume data about your brand and then ask for actions to take place. You don't have to ask for all of them because it's a sensor, so it will say, "Hey, if this falls out of two standard deviations, then we do this action." That is a comprehensive solution that I think as a standalone offering is quite interesting, and we're getting some good interest there. I guess we'll keep everyone updated as to what we decide to do there. The only way, I guess, you can probably look at that is we have a line item in our financials that is called SaaS Logistics and Other.
That grew 173% last quarter, and that's where you would watch that growth. Now, the reason why we don't try to hype that up too much is it was $14 million in the last quarter on $775 million-ish, I think $774. We don't want people to get too carried away with it. To your point, we're building a lot of these things. People ask for them regularly to be a standalone offering, and so we are responding to it, and you'll be able to just find it in that line item there.
Okay. I'll ask one last question, and anybody can ask a question, or Natalie, if you want to jump in with a question. You had an unusual risk factor in your S1. I haven't seen it too often. I call it the work wife risk. Now I have no idea why you had that in there. I have never had a disagreement with my wife. I have always said, "You're right." I've always said, "Yes." Some reason, you must have some real controversy in the household because you had to list that as a risk factor. What's it like co-founding with your wife and working with your wife?
Well, she's amazing in every way. Anyone who spent any number of hours with us, we were speculating, I bet you at Pattern, I don't know if I mean, the percent is close to zero who has ever seen us have what you would call a tense discussion. We just tend to work together super well. She is brilliant. When we started the company, we actually weren't married. It was about three years in, I said, "Hey, you want to go to dinner?" That caused her to pause because we went to lunch all the time, but as soon as you ask a coworker to dinner, they're like, "What's going on here?
You told HR.
Yeah, we did. We dated for a couple of years, and now we do all of the nerdy things we did, we just do them together, you know? We actually have put about 6,000 hours together competing on this video game you call Civilization VI. She has a slight edge on me. She is brilliant and a phenomenal partner. I guess they forced us to put that risk factor in. We don't consider it one.
Natalie, you want to ask a question?
In terms of agentic commerce, I guess the way that consumers are being shown catalog of product choices could be a lot narrower versus the marketplaces today. Tell us in terms of your vision of the world in terms of retail and that paradigm, how you're benefiting or perhaps you need to navigate certain challenges of perhaps lower kind of catalog visibility, which does affect perhaps the retailers that you're servicing?
Yeah.
Can you somehow rephrase that or summarize that question?
Yeah. The question was, say, in a typical SEO world, you might get, say, 20 or more pages of search results, versus if you ask a similar question to a generative model, they might surface one or two options. It's why my comment earlier on if you are a genuinely good quality brand that does what you say you're going to do, treats customers well. Product quality, reviews, experiences that you've been generating for years are now more visible than ever. I think you'll see brands that are high quality win an outsized amount for a long time. What we're doing to help brands understand this is we'll take keywords or keyword phrases for marketplaces, and we'll build them into what we call a family.
You might have a family of keywords that, say, is like creatine for women, and then there'd be a number of keywords underneath there, and maybe thousands. We'll pull those together and we'll say, "Okay, you're performing really well in that family on the marketplaces." Then we'll take and turn those into questions and send them to the models, at different LLMs. We'll score you on your visibility and reach and sentiment on the models.
We'll say, "Okay, we believe you could perform here because you've historically performed here across, say, marketplaces, which have the best data on the planet, but yet you're underperforming or over-performing over here." Then we'll start understanding why. A lot of it has to do with inadequate content, and in many cases, if you have a product problem, we'll identify it, and you have to fix it. It's quite an undertaking, but the brands that are willing to do it with us will have, I think, immense success there.
Maybe just to follow on on that. In terms of the economics, maybe it's too early to tell, any kind of comment in terms of the economics that you're seeing for LLM perhaps funneled in terms of sources versus marketplace source retail?
Well, I think, it's too early to say because those models aren't particularly well-built yet. I'm quite bullish that it will leave a space to compete for a Pattern that could be pretty interesting and powerful. Where we're focused, I believe there will be a concept of a buyer's agent for you, that it will have a lot of information about what you like, what you don't like, what you care about. Of course, you will feed it to say, "Hey, I need this to show up by tomorrow morning," some of those things specific to the product. Then there will be a concept of a service agent or a brand agent that might actually, over time, negotiate with your buying agent, even on price, on delivery, on a lot of those things.
The data on your performance will be at that service or brand agent level. If you have done what you said you're going to do repeatedly, but you won't be able to get away from negative results. If you treat customers badly, and that is well known, or if you say you're going to deliver in a day, but it's usually a day and a half, all of those things will be tracked at an agent level. Pattern is positioning ourselves right now on an attempt at almost perfection. We're in a board meeting, our last board meeting, we're measuring our customer service response, in the board meeting, I'm like, "Let's see." It was about 15 seconds.
We are just obsessing on if it's a transparent world, how can we represent brands in a near perfect way so that over time, that data will amass where a brand that we represent gets chosen in that ecosystem? I think there's a lot of opportunity there for both Pattern and the brands.
That's great. Okay, I think we're at the end of our time. David Wright, CEO of Pattern. Thank you very much, Dave.
Thank you.