and Chief Operating Officer of PayPal. Jamie joined PayPal as CFO in 2023 and has been at the front lines of the evolution since. It has been quite a ride. Before PayPal, she has held the CFO roles at EY, Cargill, and General Electric, where she also served as President and CEO of GE Transportation. Thank you for joining us. Really appreciate your time. Maybe, Jamie, you could start with PayPal being in a transformational mode for some years now. You have had a unique vantage point through this evolution. Maybe as you look at the business today under Enrique’s leadership, what do you think is genuinely different about PayPal’s strategy and its execution, and what gives you greater confidence in the path forward?
First, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.
Welcome.
When you look at PayPal, we have been in transformation, and I think doing a lot of the right things. But 2026 for us has been really about focus and execution. Enrique Lores came in in March, and in April, we reorganized the businesses to really align around the markets we serve and the consumers we serve in them. Our business units are Checkout and PayPal, Consumer Financial Services and Venmo, and Processing and Payment Services and Crypto. When you look across that, you can see kind of really distinctly how that captures the product sets.
and how it captures just the technology and the enablement behind that. Really streamlining how we work in a big way. The second piece that Enrique did very quickly was jump in and really go deep on our strategy. Getting into the numbers, getting into the markets, the customers, all the cohorting, and really refocusing the strategy around just a handful of things. There is really a number of things that are primarily different in that. One is a much deeper focus on financial services. The other is deeper focus on continuing the momentum in Venmo and processing. The third is adding more emphasis in our ecosystem on the consumer. We have been very merchant-focused, but the consumer piece of it really needed a lot more investment. I would say the fourth is simplification.
With the reorganization, we've really launched a lot of cost out, designed to simplify the company and drive for more speed. The last is really underpinning this, just tech modernization.
We've talked a lot about that. We're making good progress, but that is really another piece of the enablement and the speed piece of it. More than anything, probably the biggest difference is Enrique. Having Enrique inside PayPal has been really awesome. He is an operator, and he is decisive. He is very focused. All the work we've done, coupled with just his leadership around accountability, I think is really helping us to start to move the needle.
That's great.
Yeah.
It seems like the headline growth rates don't reflect the progress that's being made, right? Maybe you could talk about the next six to 12 months and how we'll see growth accelerate and evidence of that.
Yep. In 2026, we've raised guidance twice. Right now, we're targeting transaction margin dollar growth of 2%, EPS growth of mid-single digits. When you look across what we've seen this year as we've begun to pivot, I'd say the real bright spots have been in the U.S., we're seeing nice sequential growth, and the work we've done on our merchant playbook has been, I think, really good in terms of helping us understand what's working and starting to move the needle forward. The other piece I talked about a minute ago was our focus on consumers. When we did all of our strategy work and really looked at the consumer cohorting, I think one of the things you see pretty clearly in PayPal is that about a third of our consumers drive more than half of our margin dollars.
Really looking at and staring at how do you align our product strategy and our attach and habituation, all the motions around that, and how do you embed that into our execution and our plan has been a really key part of it. If you lift up from that, we've been really focused on durable transaction margin dollar growth over time. This medium-term growth algorithm that we talked about a couple of weeks ago really is what we're very focused on and aligning the strategy against, which is mid-single-digit transaction margin dollar growth, good operating leverage, and good capital allocation, driving a nice, attractive EPS growth return over time.
This one-third of consumers driving half the margin is the goal to get more out of those consumers, or is it to get more consumers look like those one-third of consumers?
It's really both, honestly. The high-value consumers for us give us a really good right to win around attaching more product to them. You start to look at the numbers of consumers that have more than two products attached, how much ARPA multiples you can have when you have that kind of attachment. It gives us the opportunity to align our strategy with more product to work with them around. PayPal is a very, I'll call it, middle consumer sort of brand.
When you look at Buy Now, Pay Later and the success of that, you look at our first-party credit card, the success we've had with debit, there's a lot of opportunity to continue to grow the monetization of our consumers in a way that doesn't mean we necessarily have to grow our total consumer base. It's just the shifting and the movement around the consumer base itself.
Got it.
And the attached.
Understood. Branded checkout growth has remained in the low single-digit range, but the underlying trajectory by region is quite different. Maybe you could walk us through what you're seeing in the U.S. and Germany versus the U.K. and other European markets that have been more challenging, and how do you expect those to evolve over time?
Branded checkout this year, we've been pleased because it really has stabilized throughout this year. All four quarters, over the last four quarters, have been 1%-2% growth. When you look at third quarter in particular, we did feel an impact of about 70 basis points from the European de minimis tariff policy actions. Having said that, we're really seeing nice and consistent growth around Buy Now, Pay Later, growing in the mid-20s, Pay with Venmo growing more than 40%. Checkout itself has had a stabilized profile. When you shift and start to look at the U.S., I'd say there's a couple of things there that have been bright spots this year. First has been, we see nice, strong growth in services and travel and other verticals that has been sort of a consistent pull-up for us.
The second piece, and I'm sure we'll spend some time talking about this, is the merchant playbook work we've been doing. Where we've done that, we've seen really nice shifting in the growth profiles of our U.S. merchants. When you go to Europe, I would say Europe is stable as well. Germany, in particular, is stable and improving, which is good. We've seen a little bit of macro pull on that, but stable and improving. We've launched new product with Amazon around Buy Now, Pay Later in Germany and Austria in the third quarter, so those have been nice growers and off to a good start. The U.K. has continued to be challenging, but it's been consistent. Places like France and Italy have been stable and good growers for us.
What's important about Europe right now is the work we're doing in the U.S. has given us a good lens on things that are working, and as we begin to expand that, we'll get into Europe next year and be investing against that same strategy and playbook there as well. That's a key part of really continuing to move the branded checkout growth profile over time, but maybe more importantly, even the transaction margin dollar growth.
Would you agree that Europe seems a lot? The competitive intensity there is lower than it is in the U.S., or do you think it's as strong there?
I think they're different. I think there are overlaps, but I think they're different. Europe tends to be more country to country as opposed to the U.S. is just so much bigger than any one country in Europe, and you tend to see big players in the U.S., but they are not uniformly in the same place everywhere in Europe, and you tend to have more local competition in addition to some of those global companies.
I think the answer competitively is different, but when you come back to the consumer and the merchants and what they need and want, that part of it actually is pretty similar, which is why when you look at both our strengths around trust and security and compliance and risk globally, paired with the investments we're making around better consumer experience, better merchant conversion, and just more co-investing alongside that against what consumers want, I think what we're really seeing is that's what's starting to shift and move the needle.
Got it. The early results from your enhanced checkout integrations have been quite encouraging. As you moved from targeted merchant deployments to a broader rollout, what gives you the confidence that those benefits can be replicated at scale?
Yeah, this is an area that we've been working on for a couple of years, and this year in particular, we stepped up our investments in what we're calling our merchant playbook. This is really about consumer experience, it's about presentment and where a product presents in the checkout flow, and it's about just selection, so things like co-marketing. When you look across all of that, what we find is that merchants need or want different things as we work with them. For some, solving the consumer experience, so just taking friction out of the process with biometrics, our new paysheet redesign that really can shift the needle for growth for both of us in a good way.
For others, Buy Now, Pay Later is a really attractive product. We make investments around whether it is upstream messaging, whether it is around presentment of either our button or the Buy Now, Pay Later button or both, more present at checkout is a piece of it. Some we do co-development work around onboarding and co-development work around Buy Now, Pay Later product that has both our brands on it. I would say the last piece, that co-marketing piece, has been around making sure that when a consumer gets to checkout, they select us every time.
We, with merchants, will come up with campaigns, and you see some of these where 5% cashback if you select PayPal at checkout, things like that, where we co-design that with merchants. As we have done that, I think we have gotten much deeper on what patterns work with which kinds of merchants, and we have also gotten much more targeted with the kinds of merchants where it really makes sense to make certain investments.
A couple of weeks ago, when we did our third quarter earnings call, one of the things we shared was that, with examples of 11 really large merchants that make up more than 20% of our U.S. checkout TPV, where when we have got all or portions of that playbook in place with them, we have been able to grow at rates higher than their e-commerce growth, which really tells you we are really moving the needle and beginning to move that share needle back, which has been really important.
That is a lot of what gives us confidence as we go into 2027. We have talked about we are going to be investing more, both in transaction margin dollars and in OPEX dollars against that strategy, but as we begin to do that deeper into the U.S. merchant field or start to move it into Europe, that gives us more confidence around the firm.
Got it. In terms of the penetration of modernization, do you want to talk about sort of how far you have gotten into that?
Well, with respect to paysheet redesign and biometrics, it is pretty far, pretty penetrated. But with respect to the other pieces of it, I would say it is still fairly early, meaning in the U.S., we focused on our top 50 merchants, and I would say we are decently moving into that at this point. This is work that takes time. There are either integrations we have to work on. I talked about some of the co-development. The marketing just takes time to work and start to unfold. But when we get into next year, we will be widening the aperture around our top 200 global merchants. And in Europe in particular, it is around the top 25 merchants that really matter.
The European work will start maybe mid-year next year, so more U.S. work, and then we will start to deepen that scale globally.
Got it. I want to talk about Europe because that is the next market. I guess, when you think about which markets you would go into first, what are those markets that you are prioritizing? Then, as you think about the investments you will make, how quick a return can you get relative to the ones that you have made here in the United States? Can you make a faster return on those investments given the learnings from here?
Yeah. So, well, maybe I will start with the return, then we will get into the latter part of your question. When we originally began this process, we really were looking to underwrite roughly a two- to three-year timeline here. I think what we're finding is that, this will take time. As we get into Europe and other places, I think there's a lot of characteristics that make it easier, meaning you're going to see more targeted, maybe more large merchants versus mega merchants that we'd be working with. So the idea of scaling with them more quickly, I think, will be faster. We'll also have a lot more experience under our belt.
Of course.
Primary geography is Germany, for sure. We have a huge market in Germany that consumers love our brand. We've got a really nice share of the market there, and we've done a really nice job with product innovation, but continuing to keep that forward with merchants will be really important. We've been experimenting in the U.K. quite a bit over the last year, rolling out both rewards programs, doing some product sampling and testing, and things like that. So the U.K. will be another piece of that. Then you get into France, Italy, Spain, and other places. All of that'll be a part of it.
Got it. Obviously, there's been this clear willingness to invest in rewards and other engagement initiatives to maximize the TMD growth. Maybe you could just talk about the amount of reinvestment that's inside of TMD and where you're seeing the strongest returns on those investments.
Yeah. From an investment perspective, in 2026, it's about $300 million. It's a couple of points of transaction margin dollar growth. When you look across that, those investments really are underpinning a lot of what I just talked about. When you look at the experience side of it, we're either investing in actually rolling that out ourselves, so engineering and in the scaling and rollout. In some cases, we incentivize merchants to actually do the work on their checkout flow and make sure we actually get implemented. When you look at presentment, it's really making, in many cases, decisions about whether we want to pay for presentment, or do we want to undertake the co-development work to do co-branded onboarding and really begin to share and deepen in a much deeper way?
I mean, that involves the development time and work, the cost of the people to do it. In many cases, too, we're beginning to do more rev share and really more tiered incentive-based pricing, where they win, we win sorts of things that really positions us differently. The co-marketing piece of it is a lot more straightforward in terms of traditional marketing measurement. All in, when you look at the kinds of return profiles, it's really within the zone of what I was talking about before.
What I like right now about what we're seeing is I think we've learned a lot, and we've just continued to hone and pivot the strategy and know and be able to see where we're seeing unit economics come through that align with our models, where we're seeing halo comes through that aligns, and then we're able to even better underwrite going forward.
Okay, great. I want to talk about the expense savings program that's supposed to yield something like $1.5 billion plus. Maybe you could talk about how much progress has been made against that $1.5 billion and how that unfolds over the next year or so.
Yeah. The program we announced in late April, and we're targeting taking more than $1.5 billion of cost out over the next two to three years. What we said was that that would largely be reinvested in the business. To date, we expect to have about, well, more than $700 million worth of gross cost out by the end of the year, really coming across three areas. We've been focused on organizational structure and alignment, and here, we've taken several actions this year. Starting in April, we had another big action at the end of August, where we've taken out three layers in the company. We've gone from nine to six. We've increased our spans. We've taken out more than 25% of our management layers. Really, when you look at that, what it's doing is allowing us to move faster.
You see, you take that coupled with this reorganization around our product sets, it's much more clear who owns what, and then we're just really streamlining how we work, which I think is a hugely helpful part of it. The next piece is around operational alignment and portfolio realignment. That's really around prioritization and deprioritization. It's doubling down in a handful of countries where we really matter, and it's really saying the long tail, we're actually just going to let that sit, or in some cases, actually exit.
It's really prioritizing what matters. One of the things at PayPal, like many great tech companies, we love to love all of our children, but Enrique's been consistently very clear around hammering on prioritization because we can't do everything. That's that piece of it. The third piece is around AI and automation, and part of that, we talk a lot about our tech modernization. That's a big body of work, but this piece is really around how do we make things more efficient? How do we take work out of the system? How do we get much better consumer and merchant outcomes as a result of using AI to enable service, to enable price optimization, like lots of different things? That body of work is really just getting started, but that's also what's going to keep going through 2027 and 2028.
When you get into fourth quarter, I expect that OpEx growth will be flat to low single digit-ish. I think the only important thing to remember, and you talked about this a little bit earlier, is that you can't just take second half OpEx run rate and annualize it to get to 2027. I do think kind of trying to time cost out with investment timing and all of that, there's going to be some level of being able to take cost out while we're investing in the pace of those two things coming into zone together. We'll take a little bit of time to even out.
Could we talk about, I know you hit on this a little bit, but where this cost out is being deployed, maybe how much of it actually drops down to the bottom line at some point, or has been?
Yeah. It has been a little bit this year.
Yes.
I fully expect that, like I said, fully expect over time that we will reinvest most of this, if not all of it. That is really how we have put the plan together for the moment. When you talk about our strategy and you really look at PayPal, a shift to financial services and consumer and marketing attach, investment there is really around product build with financial services. It is real investment in consumer. So this means investing in the consumer teams in the markets where we are in European countries and other places, investing in lifecycle management and really getting much, much better with our data and customer cohorting, and a marketing attach. When you look at Venmo Financial Services, it is around the financial services product build-out and around the marketing and the attachment around that as well, engineering resources, things like that.
All the way over to Processing and Crypto, where that is about more build-out of value-added services, and it is about building out our specialist seller force. One of our challenges with VAS is that when we have gone in over the past several years, we typically have allowed VAS to be a pull-through in our natural selling process with merchants, and really pulling that out to be distinct, value-add, building out more services and more capabilities. We have got a huge focus on that in the last two years. Those are the kinds of things that are super important to our merchants, but we also need, in many cases, to have a specialist seller force alongside that so we can really demonstrate the value and get that attached.
So, those are the kinds of things that over the next two-ish years, two and a half years, we will be very focused on.
How does that compare to your competitors? When they go out and they have their sales motion, how does what you are trying to achieve compare to them?
Well, in many cases, it is very similar. I mean, you see some clear examples out there where our ambition, we should have a right to win there. We have shown, and take Processing and Payment Services and Crypto, we have had really nice growth in transaction margin dollars over the last two years, employing a VAS build-out strategy, and just being very focused on building profitable growth as opposed to growth for growth's sake. I think that is really shown that we can execute against that.
What I am excited about is that we still have a lot of runway around not only build out of VAS, the ability to take this to other geographies outside of the U.S., and I think that specialist sales force, where we are pretty much just getting started is a pretty well-worn path with some of our other companies we see in the industry, and we will be able to follow that pretty well.
Great. Agentic commerce. It seems like it has the potential to reshape how commerce is done online, and it would appear like PayPal's got pretty significant right to win with a two-sided platform that's kind of payments choice agnostic or whatever. You have choice to make payments. As you think about the investments you're making and the assets you have, how do you think it scale, it sort of turns into success with agentic?
Yeah. I mean, agentic's still pretty early, but I would just double down on your point about our right to win. I think we're really well positioned. You look at PayPal, we've got 400 million consumers, we have 20 million merchants. We've got systems at scale around fraud prevention and detection, risk and compliance, security, trust, all of the things that consumers need and want, but importantly, it's cross-border. That kind of a system is really hard to replicate. When you get back to agentic itself, high brand recognition, but also kind of turnkey situations for the different agentic players, whether it's something like Muse and Meta, where we'll be going live on that in the next couple of weeks, to other players or places where we've got other partnerships around platforms, around standard setting, things like that.
But if you take a step back, bottom line, I think that our brand really does afford us the right, but there's more work to do, and it's still pretty early.
I guess, there's a lot of different players in the market that are trying to do the same thing, and even the inference engines are trying to create their own wallets in some ways. How do you think about them working with you but also competing against you? That sort of rules of engagement or how-
Sort of how we live across the
Coopetition
Elements of our market.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we have lots of places where we both compete and partner, and I think that's something we're pretty comfortable with, and it depends on what we're looking at, whether it's distribution or whether it's agentic or other places. I think that that's part of the game.
Got it.
Yeah.
Venmo is one of the key monetization opportunities within the ecosystem. I am curious, and you have talked about a four to 5x opportunity to increase ARPA over time. What do you think is the biggest drivers of getting there?
Yeah. Venmo is such a fun product to talk about. 70 million consumers, largely a young and affluent demographic, but it is super interesting when you get in and look at the customer cohorting underneath that, because we have got very large populations within that that are teens and parents. You have got the college age. You have got micro-sellers and sole proprietors, and I think we can all think about who that would be, whether you are at the farmer's market, whether you are at the hairdresser, people who regularly use a product like Venmo as a core part of their daily life and their business. When you look at Venmo, we have begun in the last couple of years with debit penetration and Pay with Venmo penetration, but we are really in early innings there. Both of those have grown consistently at 40%-50% clips.
When you look at people who use those products versus people who only use peer-to-peer, the actual monetization is 2x just in that cohort alone. But the ARPA opportunity around all of this, and you could see it again in our competitors, is an opportunity to really grow ARPA 4 to 6x from where we are today.
We are literally just a couple of years into this. What is fun and exciting about it is I think the brand affords us a lot of opportunity to build out more product and attach, whether that is spending limits and controls and visibility for teens and parents, whether that is really looking at micro-sellers and sole proprietors around different kinds of credit products that help them manage their business better or manage their cash flow better. When you look at others where they just want a credit card, or they want more access to debit and Pay with Venmo in more places so that they can use this as more of their hub and their funds in and funds outflow.
All that is good for us. We talked before about investment strategies and things like that. A lot of the next couple of years is that product build-out, but then it is also continuing to invest and attach and habituation around it to really capture the ARPA.
You guys have talked a lot about financial services, and I am sure that is a big part, and you kind of mentioned it a little bit. That is a big part of the improvement that you expect to see in ARPA. What do you think is PayPal's right to win? There are so many different players trying to get there.
I actually think we have got a very unique right to win. I think our brand in and of itself, we talked about safety, we talked about trust, and risk and compliance, all the things that go with it, I think sits with a consumer in a very staying way. When you look at what consumers want, and this is a big part of what we studied in the strategy work this summer, consumers want a place where they can go to do a lot of things in one place. I think right now, they very much see PayPal as a way to pay. Buy Now, Pay Later is a great example of that. We have had that product for a long time, but just in the last couple of years is when we have really said, "You know what?
We are going to position this differently." We are growing Buy Now, Pay Later at 25% quarter-over-quarter. That Buy Now, Pay Later is pay monthly, it is pay in two, pay in three, pay in four. It might be larger ticket sizes, different forms for different merchants. If you are the consumer, it gives you more flexibility, and consumers want that kind of relationship. Then you look at Venmo, where I think people want a place where the money is coming in from their friends and other places. They want one place to really have their funds work for them in many different ways. Our studies show that our brand is really well positioned for all of that, and we see it in the penetration we have had so far, but this is where we are going to lay the groundwork and keep going.
As we think about financial services, how big can it become as a part of PayPal, and how broad could it become, outside of Buy Now, Pay Later?
Yeah. So I'll start with the broad. Financial services today within PayPal underpins each of our businesses. So with PayPal, we talked about it, credit and debit are core parts of the PayPal Buy Now, Pay Later, core parts of the PayPal brand and product set. In Venmo, same thing. We've got debit, and we've got some credit, but we've got a huge opportunity there to build that out. But what is probably not well understood is even underneath our processing business, we've got a big merchant lending business that is really good around keeping businesses sticky with us and helping them as well. So financial services today is more than 20% of our transaction margin dollars, and again, aligned to those product sets.
But we think going forward, it can be an even bigger grower as part of that, and an important part, as you look at how we can really deepen our relationship with our consumers and leverage our brand and our position to take that further.
Then as we think about accelerating the growth there and the transition to financial services, would you consider M&A, and where would that be?
Yeah. From an M&A perspective, we've been pretty balanced so far with respect to capital allocation. We have a lot of money being returned to shareholders right now with buyback. We've implemented a small dividend. When we look forward in the strategy, I think M&A will play a part. M&A, when we look at it, really has three screens for us. The first is strategic, and working with Enrique, we are very focused on how does this snap in exactly what it would enable, how does it fit strategically, and that's got to be very clear. The second piece of it is it has to make financial sense, both in terms of what it can bring, what it can return, and how we're deploying capital. The third is around real line of sight and clarity around operationalizing it and executing against it.
All three of those have to be in place, and I guess the simple thing to say would be, we fully expect it probably will be a part of our strategy and what we do, but we're also going to have a pretty high bar around what we select and how we do it.
Would it be outside of the U.S., or how are you thinking about geographies?
I think it could be any of that. I think that when you look at the strategy we want to run, we have real opportunity, let's take Venmo, to drive different product set, to drive different kind of attach. So you can imagine different partnerships or different things that could be snap-in or bolt-on that could help that. When you look at PayPal, you see product sets, you see geographies, you see different consumer sets as well. So, it really is going to come back to, how do we look at the landscape? Where are we seeing organic traction? Where do our organic opportunities to invest, and where could an inorganic help us accelerate faster?
Got it. Maybe we could talk about just historically investors viewed PayPal primarily through the lens of branded checkout, as we've talked about ad nauseam. But as financial services, Venmo, PSP become larger contributors, how is the composition of TMD evolving, and what does that mean for the long-term growth and profitability of the business?
Branded checkout, historically has been a large part of our transaction margin dollar growth. The last couple of years, what we've seen is Venmo and processing increasing their levels of growth and increasingly being a good contributor to transaction margin dollar growth as well. What I really see to drive durable transaction margin dollar growth over time is diversification in the sources of that. Venmo, processing still growing at very healthy clips, financial services now contributing even more. Branded checkout, I think the thing that we've really stared at in our strategy process is the idea that branded checkout doesn't have to get back to historical growth levels to really drive a healthy mid-single digit durable transaction margin dollar growth kind of set over time. That's kind of how we're thinking about branded checkout in our three-year plan.
Okay. I guess, you've outlined the path to faster TMD and EPS growth over time. Maybe you could walk through the building blocks underpinning that acceleration, and is it a conservative underpinning that you have, and what kind of timeframe should we think about it? Maybe just give us a whole run through of that.
Yeah. When you look at what I'll call our medium-term growth algorithm, it really starts with what we were just talking about. Transaction margin dollar growth, durable, diversified sources, branded checkout, financial services, Venmo, and processing, all four of those. In addition to that, having good operating leverage. We talked about the cost-out programs we have, the reinvestment program we have against that, where we'll be reinvesting to drive that growth of margin dollars, but good leverage in the process, and then good deployment of capital. Coupled with that, a nice return to shareholders around the capital profiling, which gets us to good double-digit earnings per share growth rate over time. That's really the algorithm we're building towards and that we've really anchored our strategy around.
One last one before I get to questions, if anyone in the audience has it, is just, you guys have this bank charter application. Maybe you could just talk about what you expect the bank to do for you, because it would seem like it would be quite advantageous as you are building out financial services.
Yeah, I think so over time. I think that the bank piece of it today is really designed around merchant lending and deposits. If you look at the merchant lending that underpins our work, both processing, small businesses, and that ranges not just to support processing, but the micro-sellers, the sole proprietors, that is all merchant lending when you look at it. That is a big piece of it. The other side of it is to diversify our funding sources. With financial services over time, we have been building out a variety of different funding sources for that.
We fund a lot through our own free cash flow and our cash on balance sheet, but we have also begun taking books off balance sheet in Europe and in the U.S. to really just diversify where the cash and funding sources come from, and certainly deposits are another cost-efficient way to do that.
You expect to be more balance sheet intensive as you move forward, because it would get you more of the TMD dollars.
It would, but when you look at it's all a capital allocation equation. We continue to expect to be generally balance sheet light. We are going to make choices around what the right return profile will be around when we keep it on balance sheet versus when we take it off. But I think the reality too is that we want to keep a healthy form of shareholder return in the process, and so we will continue to seek to diversify funding sources and leverage that as we go forward through this too.
Perfect. Okay, I think we are out of time. My apologies. All right, great. Well, thank you so much.
Great. Thanks so much.
Bye-bye.