So welcome, everyone, back to Sidoti's summer virtual investor conference. I'll introduce our next speaker in just a moment, but just first, a reminder, if you'd like to ask questions, we expect a few minutes. At the end of the presentation, press that Q&A button at the bottom of your screen, type in the questions, and we'll get to as many as we can. I don't want to take up too much time, so we're so pleased to be welcoming Smart Sand CFO Lee Beckelman today. I know he has an informative half hour in store. So with that, let me turn it over to you, Lee.
Thanks, Steve. Thanks for the introduction, and thanks for those joining the call today. I'm Lee Beckelman. I'm the CFO of Smart Sand Inc. I've been with the company since 2014. We went public in November 2016, and have been trading on the Nasdaq since then. And I'm gonna go through our presentation, hopefully leave a little time for Q&A at the end, and we'll go from there. In terms of Smart Sand, for those that are not familiar with us, we are a frac sand and industrial sand company. We mine and produce sand that's used to frack oil and gas wells in North America and the operating basins across the United States and into Canada. And we also produce sand that's used in industrial applications.
In terms of our business model, we believe we have the right operating model. We have three very large reserve base and processing facilities in the Midwest, the United States, and Wisconsin, and Illinois. We have over 500 million tons of high-quality Northern White sand, and currently about 10 million tons of processing capacity. Our mines are very efficient from a logistics standpoint, and then all of our mines are connected to Class I rail lines, which allows us to ship our sand very efficiently into the operating basins. We have a very low operating cost structure because we mine, process, and ship in large unit train shipments from our existing locations, and also have very sustainable and efficient logistics operations in the basins.
We have three or four primary operating terminals today in the basins and have access to third-party party terminals that allow us to get very efficient logistics operations and delivery of our sand to our customers in the operating basins. And additionally, we have the right sand, in our opinion, in terms of it's very high quality, leads to better overall well results, but also it is finer mesh. Today in the market, you know, probably close to 90% of the demand for frac sand to frack oil and gas wells is finer mesh sand of 40, 70, and 100 mesh. And Smart Sand today, our reserve base is collectively over 70%-80% of our reserves is finer mesh type of sand. And then finally, we believe we've developed and have a very strong capital structure.
We maintain very low leverage levels. We are in a commodity business, and that's allowed us to be able to sustain ourselves in operating through the, you know, the volatility and operating cycles of the oil and gas business. But additionally, we have very high insider ownership. Charles Young, our founder and CEO, today owns 18% of the company. Collectively, other insiders with being management, other founders, et cetera, collectively, we all own about 33%. So we're not only managers of the business, we're also basically owners of the business and looking to create long-term value across the board for our shareholders. And then we are focused on looking to how we can return value to our shareholders at our time. Last year, we bought back 11% of our shares.
We haven't committed publicly yet into the ways that we plan to return value more consistent to our shareholders, but we are committed to, over time, looking to various options, whether it be dividends and/or share repurchases in the future, to start returning more value to our shareholders over time. In terms of company overview, again, we're a mining business. We mine frac sand at our two facilities, in Wisconsin and one in Illinois. We mine the sand, process it through wet plant and dry plant at those facilities, and then we have very large footprints of logistics, transloading, and rail access right or near our plant facilities that we load up our sand into rail to be shipped to our customers. We have terminals in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Dakota, Oklahoma, that we actually own and operate.
We ship our sand too, but we also have access to third-party terminals. Our sand's delivered to those terminals and ultimately trucked to the well site for use to frack oil and gas wells. But we also provide well site services where we can help manage that sand at the well site and store it and deliver it into the pressure pumping equipment. This is just a quick summary financial of our last five quarters. We did have a dip in the fourth quarter last year, but we've had very good rebound in performance in the first two quarters of this year with improving volumes. But also we've been very focused on being much more efficient in managing our cost base, which has led to improving contribution margin per ton and improving Adjusted EBITDA over the last two quarters.
In terms of the market, again, today, 90% of our business is processing and selling frac sand that is used by pressure pumping companies and exploration and production companies to frack oil and gas wells and shale basins throughout the United States and Canada, for, to, to produce oil, to produce oil and gas. And the demand for proppant, our sand is the proppant. The proppant is what's used in the fracking process. You take sand, water, and chemicals, and with pressure pumping equipment, it takes that mixture and blasts that mixture into the formations 10,000+ ft below the ground at a very high pressure.
Those formations that pressure pumping fractures those rock formations, and our sand is the proppant that holds open those fractures that allows the oil and gas to escape from the rock formation and to be produced. And in the industry, E&P, Exploration Production companies, which I call an E&P, and pressure pumpers that are doing the fracking, they continue to look for ways to get more production out of each well they're producing. And one of the ways they continue to do that is to use more proppant per well. And so this graph just demonstrates over the last five years, you can see the increasing amount of proppant, which is the frac sand that's used per foot of lateral and per well being drilled today and completed in the U.S. and in Canada.
Even though frac spreads, frac spreads are the pressure pumping equipment that's used to frack that oil and gas well, even though they have relatively or predicted to be relatively flat in terms of the number of spreads completing oil and gas wells in the U.S. and Canada. The amount of sand that each frac spread is using continues to increase. So again, oil and gas producers today are trying to be much more efficient. They're drilling when you look to drill and complete an oil and gas well, you basically drill vertically about 10,000 ft down into the earth. You then turn basically at a 90-degree angle and drill what's called a lateral that may go, you know, up to 20,000 ft today in one direction.
And then you break that lateral up into stages, and you frack those stages to be able to, you know, again, fracture the formation to allow for the oil and gas to produce. Oil and gas producers today are trying to continue to extend their laterals, trying to get more production out of each well they drill. They're making those laterals longer, they're using more stages per lateral, and they're using more stage per sand, which is leading to increasing use of demand for frac sand and proppants, as they complete oil and gas wells in the U.S. Now, this is a slide from Piper Sandler and Rystad Energy that basically shows today, kind of market shares of Northern White providers in the market.
Today, we believe that we're, you know, probably the second-largest provider of Northern White in North America. We built our position up over the last five years, have 10 million tons of capacity among our three facilities today. Then, not gonna spend a lot of time on this, but we do believe long term, there's a lot of discussion between Regional Sand and Northern White sand. We believe Northern White actually leads to better long-term well results. There was a study done by Rystad that looked at over 900 wells in the Permian Basin, in the Delaware and Midland Basins of the Permian of West Texas. Through that study, they basically compared, you know, wells by different operators that were done with Northern White and then others that were done with Regional Sand.
Consistently, if you look at the value proposition, we believe that Northern White, it demonstrates that over the course of, you know, 24-34 months, even though you get an upfront savings of Regional Sand, 'cause it doesn't have the logistics cost, it. You know, the Regional Sand is actually mined in the basin, so that sand can be delivered by truck to the wells, versus our sand, because we mine in Wisconsin, Illinois, we have the additional logistics costs of railing the sand into the basin, and then unloading it at the transloader, and then trucking it to the well. So there is an upfront cost savings for Regional Sand versus Northern White.
But we believe that savings is more than made up versus the long-term well performance that you get from Northern White being a better proppant, leading to better production over time and overall stronger cash flow from those wells. In terms of our process, again, we look to be very efficient. Charles Young, our founder, focused upfront on that this was a mining operation, and we needed to be shipping sand in large quantities. So we actually looked at kind of the coal as an example of a way to manage and build a bulk commodity business, where we wanna mine in very large-scale operations.
We wanna process the sand, and we wanna have very large logistic facilities at our processing facilities, that we can be connected to Class I railroads to get us efficiently into the markets, and we can ship our sand in very large unit train shipments. So today, 90% plus of our volumes for oil and gas go in what we call unit train shipments, that are, we're loading up 100-150 rail cars at our plant, and that sand is being delivered directly to a terminal in the basin, and from there, it's getting delivered to the well site. So we built our model on having very large facilities, large reserve base, looking to be a very efficient and connected to Class I railroads, that we can ship the sand in very large quantities.
Our process, again, tries to be very cost-effective. Again, we are in a commodity business, so we're very focused on being a low-cost producer. We mine our sand on-site. From the sand, it's mined from the pits, and we've actually moved to hydro mining, where we mix the sand with water and pump the sand to the wet plant, which processes the sand to clean it, clean out impurities and separate fine from coarse sand, that which then is delivered into the dry plants, which dry the sand and separate it into our four primary products, which is then loaded into silos, and from the silos, the sand goes in and is loaded into rail cars to be shipped to the markets that we serve. We have very low royalty rates relative to our peers.
Because our reserves are 70% fine mesh, today, we have the ability to meet the market within our reserve base, 'cause again, up to 90% of the demand for frac sand in the US and Canada today is either 40/70 or under mesh. So relative to a lot of other Northern White providers, which are much more coarse in nature in their reserves, we have a very fine reserve base that allows us to be very efficient in our yields and reduce the amount of waste that we're producing to create our sellable product. This is just a layout of our Oakdale facility. It's over 1,300 acres. Again, today, we have 250 million tons of reserves identified at this location. At Oakdale, we have 5.5 million tons of operating capacity.
Those little gray dots you see in the middle there, that is our load-out facilities. This facility has over 11 miles of rail track, can handle over 700 rail cars. We have four different load-outs, five different dry plants that we can load and can ship our sand in very large 100 to 150-plus shipments at a time, rail car shipments at a time. Our Utica facility is in Illinois. It has about 1.6 million tons of capacity, about 120-plus million tons of reserves. It is on the Burlington Northern. Our Oakdale facility, we have, you know, directly on the CP, the Canadian Pacific, and then we have within three miles of transloading on the Union Pacific.
At Utica, we have a Peru Terminal, which is about 15 miles from Utica, is on the Burlington Northern. We bought this facility in 2020 from Eagle Materials. It allowed us to get, with the Burlington Northern, to get into some other western markets that we didn't have access by being on the Canadian Pacific or Union Pacific. But then also, this mine is very well positioned to compete for industrial sand business. It's about an hour and a half from the Chicago metropolitan market. Allows us—industrial is kind of a more regionalized business, it allows us to compete for that business. And then this is in the sand's in a formation that's very white in color, and its characteristics actually work well for industrial applications.
So we're really looking to grow our industrial sand business out of this facility on a go-forward basis. And then we acquired Blair in 2022. This was an idle mine that was owned by Hi-Crush. Through their bankruptcy, they basically went idle. We were able to acquire this facility at a very, you know, very... We paid $6.5 million upfront and have invested about $5 million to bring it up and running. We bought that in March 2022, brought it online in the spring of last year, and now it's fully operational and capable for us. We bought this mine primarily 'cause it's on the Canadian National. First of all, it is a very well-designed mine, very similar in terms of scale and operations, to our Oakdale facility, that we can mine, process.
It has a very large transloading footprint at the Blair facility that allows us to ship on a unit train basis. It also has a relatively, you know, very high fine mesh reserve mix overall. And the real value of this opportunity, though, that it's on the Canadian National, and that now allows us to get access into the Canadian market. Most of the activity in the Canadian market today is in the Montney and Duvernay shales of northwestern Alberta and northeast British Columbia. It's natural gas-driven drilling to support gas that's being fed into LNG export facilities on the west coast of Canada, and there's a real strong demand growth potential there. And it's a very high Northern White market today.
Probably 80% of the sand used in the Canadian market is Northern White versus regional sand. But it was a market we couldn't really get good access to 'cause we weren't on the Canadian National. By having this mine, we now can compete in that market. But this mine also complements our Oakdale facility because it allows us to ship into the northeast United States as well. And so it gives us two options to feed into the northeast United States between Oakdale and Blair, but also now gives us access to a new market into Canada. I talked about this earlier, but we basically built our business model on being very efficient. All of our sand has to transport by rail.
Our customers are in operating basins, either in the Northeast United States, in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, in the Bakken, North Dakota. Also, we do sell sand from time to time into Colorado, Wyoming. We're looking to grow our market into Canada, and then from time to time, we do sell sand into Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. All being said, all of our sand has to ship by rail. For us to be efficient and to compete effectively, we really needed to be focused on being able to sustainably and efficiently provide sand and the logistics through the rail process.
And so that led to our focus on being, you know, having large transload facilities at our mine sites, to be able to ship on a unit train basis, but then also look to invest in terminals, where it makes sense for us to do so within the operating bases, to really be able to manage and efficiently manage that flow of sand from the plants in the Midwest to the operating basins across the country. So we're really focused on unit train shipments. Unit train shipments allow... You can think of a unit train like an express train if you're on a, you know, in a train in the northeast, going from a suburb into New York City.
Express train starts in a location and doesn't stop until it gets to the main terminal and city, so there really is, it's a much shorter time in terms of the rail. And so, by us being able to put 150 rail cars together at our plants, we're able to ship from the plant at Oakdale directly to the terminal in Waynesburg or the terminal in Van Hook. And so that's a much more efficient turn and use of the rail's power, so we're able to get lower shipping rates from the rail companies, but also allows us, we do have to rent rail cars. It's a big part of our logistics costs, and so allows us to turn those rail cars much more efficiently in a given month.
So a manifest movement may take, you know, may have to stop two or three times before the sand gets to the basin, and that may take anywhere from fourteen to fifteen days to get the sand from our plant to the terminal in the basin, versus a unit train shipment. Typically, that shipment can be done in less than five days. And so it really allows us a much more efficiency of movement, allows us to have a much smaller footprint in terms of rail cars to deliver that sand, and allows us to get better rail rates from the Class I railroads because we're using their power much more efficiently. We have three primary terminals that we own today. Our locations, Van Hook, we acquired in 2018.
This terminal has the ability to process or transload, you know, you know, close to 2 million tons of sand per year. We bought this from a Plains All American. It was an idle oil transload facility in the Bakken of North Dakota. We bought it from them and turned it into a sand operation, and it's been, you know, a great investment for us. In 2018, probably about 5% of our volumes went into the Bakken of North Dakota. Today, depending on the month, 30%-40% of our volumes can go into that market.
And we were able to really grow our market share, that market, by having control of our own terminal, which lowers our cost of terminals, but more, more importantly, allowed us to. It was a terminal right in the heart of the Bakken play that allowed us to be able to efficiently compete for business in that basin. In the same vein, we invested in the Waynesburg terminal at the end of 2021. Opened it up in 2022. It really expanded our market share in that market. Today, we've probably doubled the amount of sand that we sell in the Marcellus. This serves the Marcellus Basin of the Northeast in Pennsylvania. It's a dry gas basin.
It's a, you know, it's the largest product, producing basin in the U.S. for natural gas, and a market that we think is going to continue to grow, as natural gas demand continues to grow from increasing demand for LNG to export and from power demand to support, data centers, particularly for AI. We're very well positioned here. We've actually expanded this terminal. This terminal probably can handle, you know, you know, actually in excess, you know, probably close to 2 million tons per year, and it's been a great investment for us as well in terms of expanding our market presence and share in the Marcellus Basin. And then, at the end of last year, we actually bought two terminals in Ohio. These were idle facilities in Minerva and Dennison, Ohio.
They actually serve the Utica Shale, which is a shale basin kind of to the north and the west of the Marcellus Shale. This is a basin that's been relatively underserved, and it's really more of a liquids oil basin, and there's been a lot of increased activity over the last 12 months or so from oil and gas producers that are looking to start drilling more proactively for oil and liquids types activity here. So we think there's going to be a good growth in this basin, and these terminals allowed us to really get our footprint and, and really start establishing this basin as a new basin of growth for us. We spent $1 million upfront on it.
Probably going to put an order of magnitude of $1.5 million-$2 million to get these up and running. They're actually starting. They're fully operational as of this month, and we are actually delivering sand into these terminals, you know, starting this month. And then we do have a well site storage business. It's a small part of our business today, roughly about 5% of our business. We provide silos and portable transloading equipment to. Basically, when sand gets delivered to a well site, it get delivered by a truck. That sand has to be taken out of the truck and be stored temporarily until it's fed into the pressure pumping equipment to frack the oil and gas well, and we provide that equipment and rent it to our customers on a monthly basis.
We believe our systems, you know, competes very well relative to our competition. Our system is a combination of stand-up silos that are delivered on a trailer that basically detaches from that silo, so and we can configure the silos around the pressure pumping equipment very efficiently, so it's a much smaller footprint. And then our transloader is a portable transloader, where the trucks can come on. They can do gravity dump trailers that dump the sand onto our transloader, that delivers the sand either into the silo or, through our SmartBelt , actually delivers sand directly into the pressure pumping equipment. So we have a very small footprint on site. We're able to process high amounts of sand on a you know, hourly and daily basis, and do it very efficiently.
So we think our system competes so well with the other options out in the market. And then, we do have an industrial sand business as well. This is an area that we've been growing since we bought the Utica facility. It's still a very small part of our business, less than 5% of our volumes and revenues today. But we do think it's an opportunity for us to diversify. We will always be primarily an oil and gas-driven business, and, you know, today, 95% of our sand is sold into the oil and gas market. But this is an opportunity to grow, to diversify. Industrial sand business is much more tied to just the general economy.
It's much more stable, has reasonable, you know, margins, very similar for the base part of the industrial products business to the frac business. But it also has specialty products that get very high margins. Lower volume business, but very high margins on the specialty products. And our Utica facility, as I mentioned earlier, is very well positioned to compete in that business long term. So we've basically made investments at Utica that allow us to be able to cool sand and to blend sand to meet the specific specification of industrial customers. And we are really now making the investment in terms of the time and effort to introduce ourselves to the market to really start, you know, competing in that market on a consistent, consistent basis going forward.
So it's a small part of our business today, but we hope to grow it, and, you know, potentially in the next three to five years, we would hope that our Utica facility could be majority, majority basically producing sand for the industrial sand market. And then finally, again, just in summary, we think we have the right operating model long term for the, you know, to supply sand for the oil and gas business, and also for our industrial business. A very high-quality reserve base, very low-cost operations, very focused on our logistics to be able to have unit train-capable connections on four Class I rail lines that gets us access to all operating basins in the U.S. and North America. And then we have a last-mile offering that, you know, provides well site storage that complements our frac sand business.
And we have, you know, existing excess capacity, and we have 10 million tons of capacity today. We sold 2.5 million tons for the first six months of this year, so we're on a run rate of approximately 5 million tons on an annual basis. So we actually have our existing facilities today have excess capacity that we can readily access and deliver sand to the market, and we don't need to spend a lot or very much incremental capital to be able to do that. And we've always been very focused on maintaining low leverage. That's that is a core principle of our company, and we're gonna, we're gonna stay true to that. We will use leverage from time to time, but we-...
Try to maintain very low leverage levels, 'cause we know we are in an oil and gas business, has cycles and can change pretty dramatically pretty quickly. And frankly, we were able to survive, you know, several of the downturns over the last five-10 years in the business because we did not have high leverage levels, and were able to kind of manage through the downturn, and then be poised and positioned to take advantage when the business comes back. And then we're very committed as a management team. Again, Charles Young owns 18% of the business, and insiders own 33%.
We're focused on long-term value creation for, you know, frankly for ourselves and for other shareholders, and we're looking to, at ways that we can continue to try to grow our cash flow and think about ways we can return some of that capital back to our shareholders efficiently and effectively. That's the end of my prepared comments, and I'll be glad to answer any questions anybody has.
Thanks so much, Lee. We do have a few questions. We've got about three or four minutes remaining. You talked about the benefits of low leverage. We obviously know over the last few years, some of your competitors getting distressed. You talked about buying the Hi-Crush asset. We also saw another sand provider go private earlier this year. Can you just talk about how the competitive dynamics of the space have changed over the last couple of years, and how that positions you moving forward?
Yeah, we think the competitive dynamic today for Northern White sand, we believe the markets have relatively balanced supply and demand. You know, just to give you some context, you know, back in 2017, there was probably 80-100 million tons of Northern White capacity on the market.
Mm.
But with the regional sand coming on, in particular in the Permian Basin, and that really moved those markets away from Northern White, and that Northern White capacity is rationalized today, that we believe the Northern White capacity, effective operating capacity, is probably in the 40-50 million ton range. So that other capacity, either through bankruptcies or the fact that a lot of that idle capacity has been idle, and a lot of that capacity today would require significant investment in terms of bringing it back online. But more importantly, a lot of that capacity, their mines are very coarse in nature. So while we may... We're 70%-80% fine mesh sand, a lot of the mines that have gone idle might be 50%, 60%, 70% coarse sand.
Yeah, okay.
So even if you bring those, even if you want to bring those mines online, they're going to be very inefficient in terms of their yield, to be able to produce the sand to meet the market. So while margins, I think, have stabilized, and we think have the opportunity to improve, we don't believe there's going to be the level to really support bringing a lot of this idle capacity back online, which we believe then keeps the market relatively in balance. But as the demand for Northern White grows in the markets we serve, you know, that we think can lead to...
Because of our excess capacity and the capacity we have, we can take advantage of that growth, you know, much more efficiently than our peers can, which allow us to be able to capture, hopefully, incremental market share if the market demand grows like we hope it will over the next, you know, several years.
Well, you noted your exposure now to the Montney Shale, where we have Coastal GasLink coming online, and then you talked about LNG export capacity, which could be beneficial to the Marcellus. How do you think the LNG market plays out for some of these larger markets you serve over the next three to five years?
Well, I think it's going to continue to be, especially for the Marcellus... Again, the Marcellus today, I think it's over 30 to, you know, 30-35 BCF a day of production. So which represents probably 30% of the U.S. production today.
Yeah.
It's also the lowest cost basin, so it actually has the ability to still make money at low gas prices. And so their issue has been somewhat takeaway capacity, but if, you know, the Mountain Valley Pipeline and other pipelines, as those open up, that allows the Marcellus to really be able to incrementally grow. And they're a dry gas basin that feeds very well-
Yeah
... into LNG demand. So, we think that is a real positive for us. In the same way, in the Montney and Duvernay shales, they're very similar in terms of the characteristics of drilling for the gas that's going to be fed into that export capacity.
Right.
So we think those two markets in particular, which we're well-positioned to compete in, we're already one of the largest providers of frac sand into the Marcellus, and we think we do need to get terminal access into Canada, and we're looking for the most efficient way to do that. But if we think we can, once we get the right terminal access in Canada, we believe we can replicate the kind of activity we have in the Marcellus and the Bakken, for example, over time. And so, you know, that LNG demand and that growth potential, we think is very positive for our business in terms of the gas side. But then we were able to couple that out, that the Bakken and the Utica are both more oil basins, and so-
Yes
... that allows us to not to be... You know, today, we're probably 60%-65% of our activity is really gas-driven. But with the Utica Shale complementing the Bakken, we can maybe hopefully get more mixed 50/50 oil and gas, which kind of helps balance that out. At least right now, we think oil, you know, oil prices, obviously there's a lot of political instability, but overall, oil prices and the discipline of E&P companies today in terms of managing their capital and their growth, you know, we see that oil prices sustain levels that continue to support the activities in those markets as well.
And before we close, we don't have a lot of time, but just talk about your CapEx expectations, maintenance, and growth in this market. Obviously, I'm sure you want to maintain that low leverage ratio. The other question being around additional stock buybacks if the stock at this level, if you can sort of touch on tax and CapEx and capital allocation over the next few months.
Yeah, so we guided on our call yesterday that our CapEx for the... We spent about $3 million in, you know, reported capital expenditures in the first six months. We guided to $10 million-$13 million. That's really, the $10 million, that incremental in the second half of the year is kind of tied to existing projects. The way we think about capital, you know, we don't need to spend a lot of growth capital in terms of being able to grow our business. Our growth capital, we don't really need more mining assets or reserves today, unless they can really get us into a new market.
Yeah.
So incremental growth capital will be really about looking for opportunities to primarily invest in logistics assets, will allow us to gain a greater access to the markets we serve, or new markets, so that we can, you know, increase the utilization of our plant assets. So, so that'll be more kind of strategic and opportunistic. And so in absence of kind of growth you know, opportunities like that, we believe kind of what I call sustainable capital and maintenance. A lot of our capital goes into really kind of expanding our mine operations at our existing facilities, that we have to basically keep ahead-
Sure
... in terms of the mining footprint relative to our planned activity. You know, our normal CapEx, without, you know, growth initiatives, is probably in the $10 million-$15 million range a year, and so I'd expect that to continue. And in terms of share buybacks and/or dividends, you know, we have, as you can see through our financials, our, you know, our cash flow has been, you know, up and down over the last several years.
Yeah.
We want to, you know, get to a point where that's more consistent.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we've been able to deliver that in the first two quarters of this year, and we want to, you know, make sure that we have built our cost structure, that we can consistently deliver, you know, free cash flow over two, three, four quarters. And with that, then we'll start thinking about the best way to share some of that capital back with our shareholders, you know, either in a share buyback or dividends, or a combination of both. We haven't officially or publicly stated what our plans are yet on that-
Okay
... but we hope to talk about that later this year or, you know, or early in 2025.
Perfect, and that's a great way to wrap up.
Yeah.
Lee Beckelman, CFO of Smart Sand, thanks so much for being here today, and hopefully, everyone found the last half hour to be informative, and I hope everyone enjoys the remainder of the Sidoti Conference. Thanks so much, Lee.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.