Perfect. We will get started here. Adam, welcome. Let us get started. My name is Ron Josey. I cover the internet sector here at Citi, and I am always excited to have my old friend, Adam Singolda, here with us today, the CEO, founder, co-founder of Taboola. We have known each other for a number of years now, I think.
Yeah.
I was thinking about what the right icebreaker is, and we were talking about this just now as we catch up. Tell me about your latest Lego set, and then we will go into the-
Oh, wow.
real business.
I'm building the Formula One car. It's probably 2,000 pieces, so not that big.
Okay.
I was trying to count.
With the kids or on your own?
That's mine. No.
Okay
each have their own. My son is doing this art piece, my daughter's doing a unicorn, and the other one is doing, I think, a Super Mario. I realize that I enjoy. I matter, too. I can't just do things with them all the time.
That's right.
That's where I am right now. It's fun.
You matter, too. I don't disagree. Why don't we kick off here?
Yeah.
I would love to level set for everybody in the audience listening on the webcast. Just give us an overview of Taboola, just the evolution of performance advertising has been pretty extraordinary.
It just continues to be a greater part of most companies' budgets. So just talk to us about Taboola's approach, and where things are going from a performance advertising perspective.
Right. One, I think, over the last few years, you've seen. For those who may not know, Taboola is the largest kind of outcome or performance advertising platform outside of Google and Facebook. So we specialize in helping businesses big and small to reach a certain outcome that matches their growth strategy. So they always go to Google first, they go to Meta, then they get capped out, and they're looking for other partners that can help them satisfy that. The definition of what's outside of search and social changed over the years. It used to be publishers, www someone.
Yep.
Over the last really, five, 10 years, it evolved into anyone that wants a piece of the advertising market. Uber is making money from ads. The number one line of EBITDA for Amazon is ads and services. Netflix said they'll never do ads. Now they love ads. Everyone is in the advertising business, and everyone needs a good friend that's not maybe Google or Facebook, and that's where we fit in. So I think, the market has evolved to your question from just traditional open web websites to apps, OEM manufacturers, utility email providers, just anyone that wants to make money from ads. That's one thing that changed. Two, the world is crazy. So the idea that you can spend money not knowing what's going to happen with that money over time went down.
You are really expected to have an attribution model that allows you to spend and know that it is working.
Yep.
That also changed. The third one that changed is AI. That reshuffled everything. Conversational ads, the idea that consumers now talk to you, how is that going to be monetized? What type of data that creates? We just had on stage here before we joined the stage, we had Mike Reed from USA Today.
Yeah.
That is obviously a big part of what they talked about.
Let us get into that, in terms of how the online ad market is changing. Before I do, if you could just give us a level set of the online ad market in your view, healthy, building, challenged. How would you look at the market overall in terms of demand?
I think it is for the most part stable.
Yeah.
I think especially as there is more focus on performance advertising tends to be more stable. It is the last thing you stop, so I would say it is mostly stable. Of course, we are seeing pockets in geographies where things are a bit different.
Yep.
The biggest thing in the future, which I am sure we will get into, is if consumers are going to be conversing so much with LLM, how is that going to transpire into. What does that mean to the economy and advertising? Outside of that, I think today it is pretty stable.
Yeah. Certain geos we hear a lot about how decent in the U.S. from an advertising demand perspective. Yeah. With that, Adam, you highlighted a topic that I think is coming up in every single conversation, which is how GenAI is changing how we all interacted with the web.
Right.
Agents, you can easily see how you can have that. You are already having a conversation with agents. A lot of companies are launching these agents that are your best friend or can do everything for you on your behalf. Just talk to us about how the internet can evolve or how it evolves with agents being your front door to a certain extent.
Right.
Things are changing in terms of how we go online and what we do online.
I would divide it into two parts that I think are interesting to understand as investors as well, that are looking to spend money in this ecosystem or not. On the one side, you have the demand side. How will AI affect billions of dollars flowing into the open web and anywhere else? I think the biggest change there is the evolution from programmatic, which is a protocol that has been used for the last 30 years by agencies and advertisers to buy ads. You know this really well. You covered many companies in that space.
I'm smiling because 30 years seems like a long time, yet we're still in the evolution of programmatic, you know.
Well, I think it's going to be evolved into nothing.
Yeah.
I think it may be replaced over time. We can discuss what's over time, but when you're an agency and you're spending $60 billion a year on programmatic and ads, and you have an opportunity to build your own buying machine using Cloud Code or Codex, or maybe it's SpaceX with Cursor now, and you can own the IP that buys those ads, and you can bypass everything on the way straight to the supplier. You can go straight to the consumer and negotiate with a different agent. That is a massive revolution we have never seen in ad tech in a very long time. The idea that you don't need any more DSPs, you can just bypass everything, go straight to the consumer on the other side, and negotiate with an agent and ask that agent questions to buy and place an ad.
I think that's one of the biggest changes that might happen too, on the demand side, which will affect agencies, DSPs, ad tech in general, agents buying from agents.
Yep.
Versus programmatic protocol that is like an old me. It is such an old protocol. It is so inefficient. It cannot take advantage of all the first-party data that is available out there. I think it is going to be deprecated. How fast? I do not know, but I think faster than we can imagine. That is one change.
Maybe before with that change, agents buying from agents, we are hearing that more and more. That is on the call a B2B, B2C programmatic side, I guess, is the question.
Yeah.
Is that happening today and give us an example of what that could be.
For us.
Yeah.
We announced a quarter ago that we have launched a Claude skill.
an MCP, a bridge, from anyone who wants to buy Taboola and place ads on Apple News, on ESPN, on Yahoo Mail, like amazing parts of the internet, through Cloud Code, never talking to Taboola. No need to know our dashboard, no need to talk to an account manager, no need to rely on our reporting. Everything through your Mac. Open your $20 subscription, open an account on Taboola, and tell Claude, "Place my ads on, I want" Sports, as we know, is a big category. I want to be on ESPN, can I do it? And you buy from Taboola. We just made it available, and it is already making millions of dollars for us.
From people we do not even know. I think so. We are seeing signs of that. Do I think it is happening in a big scale? No. But I can tell you, all the holding companies, the agencies who spend tens of billions of dollars, that is all they do now. They are all building their agents buying arms that can interact with different suppliers that have unique data and unique distribution. I just do not know how fast it will happen.
Yeah.
But look, we are seeing mergers between different agencies. We are seeing acquisitions for data purposes. We are seeing actually, things are happening. I just think it will happen, and we are seeing small signs of that as of now that I mentioned.
And these are. So with the skill that you built, I have two follow-up questions here. How long did it take you to build it? One. Then two, we are talking performance advertising, performance marketing. So this expands your funnel, your number of advertisers that could use Taboola to reach everybody-
within Yahoo Mail that meets a certain parameter. So talk to us about how you are advertising. What type of advertisers are coming on with this new skill? So how long did it take using AI in the development cycle to give us a sense, and then who is doing it?
Yeah. The time to build it was not that long, because it still eventually uses Taboola's engine-
Okay, yeah.
in the backend. Claude became the best account manager. It is the best-
Yeah
account managers we've ever had, and they're just using our system. But it's still our engine called Realize. Realize is-
Yeah
our PMax or our kind of ad engine. Claude is just the best account manager using that. That's obviously still most of the work is on our side. But Claude just studied all of our documentations, everything that was ever written.
Yeah.
Then just built all the directories it needs to become an expert. That wasn't that long. The type of advertisers is still roughly the same. We're still very good with mid-funnel, kind of midsize advertisers. We're making a push towards bigger advertisers, towards agencies, because we think that's the right time to do that. I do think still that most of the money that will come through MCPs will still come from bigger advertisers than agencies, I think, for a while. Over time, I do want a lot of advertisers.
Yeah.
But I don't suspect that will be most of our growth, at least for the foreseen future.
Okay.
I think we'll have more advertisers, but sizable ones. We call them scaled advertisers, that essentially means over 100 grand a year, you become someone that has found a product market fit with Taboola.
That's helpful. That was one aspect of AI in the front door. What was the other aspect?
You have a very good memory, Ron, just so you know. I remember an episode. The second thing is on the consumer side and the supply side.
Yep.
I think over there, we're going to see a big part of the internet as we know it transforming into conversational. I mentioned USA Today. We've launched with them in September of last year, DeeperDive, which essentially allows anyone to go to usatoday.com and ask any question they want about something that is covered by trusted humans that have covered the space. When the Knicks obviously won the championship, I hope you all love the Knicks, and otherwise, you should leave the room immediately. But for the sake of
We have several Villanova graduates here. We both
That's great.
Knicks.
Yes. Amen. It's my son's dream. When that happened, I went to USA Today, and I talked about the Knicks all the time, and I found myself speaking eight, nine, 10 minutes about what the chances were going to win compared to still a few years before. I'm doing this, no hallucination, just using USA Today content. Then it says, by the way, if you're on that topic, read that article. You should read that and watch that. It's a way better experience for me because when you love sports, if you love sport, you're never going to ChatGPT and, hey, tell me yesterday's score. Because you want an emotion. You want to watch the highlights.
Right.
You want to get a point of view of the post, maybe the New York Post. You're part of a community. To have that experience in the community and talk and watch and interact is such a better experience. I think on the supply side, we'll see a huge surge in different types of companies making conversation available for their consumers. Look, the Lakers were bought for $12 billion. People believe that communities matter in a world of machines. I do think that we'll see DeeperDive, which is like services. I'm not saying we'll be the only one, but kind of like AI layers that offer consumers to do what they are now being trained to do, which is talk to me.
How do you think we access the talk to me? Is it going to be from one of ChatGPT's latest models? Is it going to be Meta's Hatch that we are talking about? Is it going to be these newer bots that are coming on?
I can tell you how we do it. When we started that, we have had a bunch of open source models. We used our unique data about consumer readership on the internet to train those models and find them and refine them. We are lucky because we have a huge distribution of servers around the world. From a CapEx perspective, where I think a lot of companies struggle because it is very expensive, and the APIs are very expensive, we were very fortunate we have had the CapEx to support hosting those models on our own servers and training the models based on our own unique data, which made it very affordable for us to make it available for free. The second thing is then, how do you make money from that? Because otherwise, AI can just be a cost center.
We show, again, we are lucky because most of our $2 billion in revenue is direct to demand. We could have sourced the right ad to monetize that conversation. I can tell you, and I spoke about this publicly, when you show an ad that is relevant for the consumer inside a conversation, the CPM of that ad and the value to the advertiser of that ad is 5- 10 time higher than an ad on the open web on a display on a homepage. It is ridiculously valuable for the advertiser. The ROAS is so much better.
Because it's super targeted, and it's exactly what someone's having this conversation on.
When consumers are having conversation, they become superhuman.
Yep.
They're so intentional about what they want to do next. So it's like you pre-qualify those consumers. You have intense signals for the first time. We know Google is a good business.
But for the first time now, use it today to get a taste of Google Search business through DeeperDive because those signals become available to them. On USA Today, it's more than 10 million questions a month. Can you imagine if you come to work and you have access to tens of millions of questions of your consumers on your own site? Now you can decide what to cover from a news perspective. You can show ads that are relevant. I think that if you can imagine 20%, 30% of the open web evolve, maybe 50%, evolve into conversational type of experience, the revenue upside is huge. So much more money can be made, and advertisers will find so much value in the open web.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
I think that's exciting, and we've always been very close with publishers, so we're lucky that we get to have those conversations and it's now live on many great partners, Advance Media, Sinclair, HuffPost, USA Today, many great partners globally that are-
That are leveraging DeeperDive-
DeeperDive
on their site. Talk to us about DeeperDive specifically, because I think there's a lot of discussion out there in terms of all of my conversations might go through, let's call it Gemini-
Right.
or might go through ChatGPT, or might go through whatever Meta is doing with Hatch. With DeeperDive, if I understand this correct, help me understand, A, DeeperDive, and B, then all these publishers can be that engine-
Yeah.
that conversation. Tell me more about DeeperDive.
DeeperDive is the first in the world free LLM answer engine supported by ad for the open web. You can be anyone if you work with Taboola, you can access DeeperDive to make an answer engine Gemini-like on your homepage to go to usatoday.com. On the homepage, there is Ask USA Today Anything. We're using our first-party data to also generate questions for you. A lot of consumers don't even know what that answer engine means. When you go to USA Today, if you're a Knicks fan because you've been to ESPN, we may say, a question, we'll say, the Knicks season is about to start in October. Can we win again? If I click on it, first of all, it is like, oh, that is so nice you know me.
Yeah.
If I click on it, I enter DeeperDive on usatoday.com.
Yeah.
It looks like a Gemini AI mode. You get the short answer. You can say I like it, or I did not like it. You can follow up. Then DeeperDive says, by the way, while I have you, check out this video on USA Today about the Knicks. Check out this article. Look at this point of view about why we won and why we may win again. Then I read it, then there is DeeperDive again. They say, now that you have read this article, how about this question?
Yeah.
Maybe you want to talk to me more. That is completely new experience. It is free, and it is generating revenue every single time someone is using that. The adoption rates, and you know the web really well, Ron. If you look at companies over the last 20 years, click-through rates on things online, like what is the likelihood I would click on an ad?
Yep.
What is the likelihood I would click on an article? It tends to be half a percent to maybe 1%, 2%. DeeperDive is being used by more than 10% constantly. It is a double-digit adoption, which is I have never seen anything like that. And the CPM, like I mentioned, could be 5x-10x. A single tiny ad is making such a great CPM, which is also why I believe Google is not only they are not concerned about blue link search. I am convinced they just want search as we know it now to die as fast as possible and all move to Gemini.
Because they probably know what I know now, which is ads in conversations are worth a lot more than anything else. So that is where it is now, and then obviously advertisers are excited to be part of LLM, and about a month ago or two, we got a lot of companies coming to us and say, can you help us monetize our AI? Because we do not have your ads, and it is very expensive. And we kind of launched DeeperDive network.
Okay.
So if you have your own utility app and you have a commerce AI app that you raise money for from investors and you want to make money, you can come to us and we will show ads on your own LLM. So that is new.
Talk to us about the implementation. So how long does it take, did it take, or as an example, USA Today, to install it? Because essentially what we are talking about is natural language search.
Right.
and conversational search-
Yeah.
across every single site that most every single company is trying to do.
Talk to us about the implementation process. Maybe I will back up. What gives Taboola the right to win here?
Then talk about the implementation process, and then where are we on adoption rates of your customers?
The implementation itself is fairly easy. What we want to take a bit more time is we are always installing kind of like a QA process, a human and machine. We have AI as a judge, agents that basically test the quality of your site to see if we are happy with that. Then we have a human QA team that is just. It is funny, it is like a whole new type of people that we have hired that are just news junkies, and they are just talking to it just to see how it feels like.
Yeah.
We test it out. The editorial team is testing it out. We are launching on 5%, 10%, 50%, 100%. That part, we want to take a bit more time because it is so new. We want people to feel comfortable with the process. That is not complicated on the technical front, and there is an emotional part to it. I am not sure if you have ever driven a Tesla self-driving car.
Yeah.
It is emotional. For the first time, either you are in the driving seat or you are next to it, you cannot believe that you are not touching the wheel, maybe your kid is in the back. I think there is a self-driving car element here where publishers are saying, oh my god, this thing is answering on our behalf. It is a bit of that experience for the first time, but then you love it.
Yeah.
They love it a lot more once they see.
Yeah
how valuable that is to them. That's fairly straightforward.
Adoption rates.
Of publishers?
Yeah. Of your publishers.
Yeah.
That are using.
It has now been adopted by a few dozens of publishers.
Okay.
There are also language barriers. We are launching it language by language. It is a very fast-growing part of our business. Still small in revenue, but we are about 10 million. About 10 million people are using it. If you look at Claude, OpenAI, Perplexity, I think Perplexity is about 30 million people.
I want to be bigger than Perplexity within a year or so in terms of adoption. If we get more and more publishers using it, we just launched Fox News, which is amazing. We have such an incredible partner list. If we can get many of them to use DeeperDive, my goal is to become the top five answer engine in the world, and also help advertisers monetize that experience, much like Gemini. OpenAI and Claude, I am not sure, will be as successful in ads.
Yeah.
Because I'm not sure Sam, I'm not sure he's going to sleep and he's dreaming about CPM. I don't think so. Gemini will be very good at it, and I think we'll be very good at it. So I kind of want to be the second after Gemini in terms of LLM monetization.
Love it. There's a lot to go off here, but we have 11, 12 minutes left, so let me get to Realize, which you mentioned earlier. Maybe let's explain to the audience what is Realize, but then also, how is it accelerating or at least building the business here?
Right.
You know.
We launched Realize about a year and a half ago, or earlier last year, which was essentially a relaunch of our advertising platform.
Okay.
It used to be a native ad platform. Native ads are a subset of the advertising market that we did a really good job growing that business from zero to almost $2 billion. We wanted to go after a bigger dream of basically monetizing the entire internet, not just a piece of it. We wanted, on the advertising side, that you can give us display ads, vertical ads, motion ads. Whatever you have, give it to us. We wanted to support all types of bidding strategies, much like a Google does. That meant to offer like a PMax, completely autonomous opportunity.
Okay.
Or more controlled and different strategies that are available to you in a walled garden. We also imagine that one day publishers will say, nah, we don't want you to just monetize the bottom of the article. Monetize everything. Just take everything and monetize it. Just a month ago, we announced. First of all, that's Realize. Realize is our version of Google or Meta Ad Engine. We call it Realize. The goal of it is to offer you everything you are used to doing in a walled garden, outside of the walls. It's like Taboola is the walled garden outside of the walls.
All inventory, or the inventory that is available that they let you have.
The vision of that was-
Yeah.
We want to have access to everything on the inventory front, we want to support all types of strategies and formats that advertisers are used to, whether that is agentic, which is fully autonomous, or with more controls. We are a year and a half into it. First of all, we are seeing accelerated growth rates for our business, which is great. We are generating a good amount of EBITDA, which is mostly converting to free cash flow, we are buying a lot of shares. We believe in the story, we support the story, also we are seeing evidence from the market, which is the most important, that it is working.
Yeah.
A month ago, NBC, which is a very large media company, announced with us, it is my dinner today, that is a celebratory dinner, that all of NBC News and today.com to start will be monetized by Taboola. If you told me a few years ago that I am going to have an opportunity to work with such an incredible partner and monetize everything, the only way to put an ad on that site, if you are not buying directly from NBC, which of course they can always do, is through Taboola.
Yeah.
Exclusive everything.
So all first party. Is NBC doing any first-party sales?
They can sell their own whatever they want always.
Yeah.
But that's it. Once they're done selling, they don't have that. There's no more ad tech stack.
There is no more let me manage 10 SSPs, 10 DSPs. Those days are gone. One Google Search, one Google Facebook, and hopefully, one company that can help simplify this complicated ad tech space for publishers and for advertisers.
Yeah.
That day is an amazing day. One, it is one partnership, but a really good one. If we can do that, I did say publicly that this will 3x the revenue roughly for us, which means that if we can get 30% of our company to do that, we have doubled Taboola.
Yeah.
I am so excited to become the backbone for the internet as a vision to say, which is part of Realize, which is your question, give us whatever assets you have because you are going to get stuck on Google at some point. You are going to get stuck on Facebook at some point and come to us after. On the supply side, have access to everything exclusive, beautiful first-party performing engine across the web. We did the first one, and I hope to be able to share more of that.
Great. Is DeeperDive part of this partnership, or that comes later, potentially?
Later, potentially.
Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about the supply side, so the advertisers that are on Taboola. I think you mentioned earlier about $100,000 spend scaled advertise-
Yeah.
was a comment. Talk about the supply side in terms of growth and just the demand of these advertisers for the inventory that you have.
We have around 2,000+ scaled advertisers.
Yeah.
We're generally, if we can, we prefer to have more advertisers, though we're always happy to see big share of wallet from the same advertisers, but we like diversity. We like to see that number going up whenever we can. I think advertisers really find comfort with our investment and roadmap as relates to Realize and Realize+, which is our, like I mentioned, our PMax or Agentic. The NBC News announcement was so well received by the advertising community because that is exactly what they want. They want that flexibility to be anywhere on the page that makes sense for them as a brand and makes sense for them from a performance standpoint. On the supply side, we're seeing a really interesting diversity of growth into different areas.
The Yahoo partnership, which is an incredible one, we've announced, I think it is three years-ish now, give us access to different things like email page and other very U.S.-based, which we were very global. That opened our eyes to what email providers.
They need monetization and AI services, too. With Taboola News, we're seeing it is one of our fastest growth of Taboola revenue-wise, and that is Taboola on OEM, on devices such as Samsung, Xiaomi, and others. That now makes you feel about mobile, just in general mobile apps, mobile devices, just all this mobile space. That is an interesting kind of source of growth for us. DeeperDive, which we talked about, as well as the full page, just monetize everything. We're seeing kind of growth in different directions. I would say on the negative side, we're seeing AI impacting negatively some publishers. We are seeing search traffic going down. We're fortunate that most of our publishers are bigger publishers, so they have a lot of direct traffic. The search traffic is being impacted by that.
Impacted in that they're not getting the results from SEO?
They are not getting as much search traffic as they used to.
Yeah.
We are working with our publishers to help them navigate that, things like DeeperDive, homepage personalization. These are all initiatives that are there to increase engagement and traffic. I think that is some also negative that is going on, and I think that is an opportunity for companies to innovate and double down on partnerships. That is how we are seeing it.
Maybe one last on the publisher partnerships. We talked about NBC. You mentioned Yahoo. That was a big deal a few years ago. Fox News I think is on there, too.
Just launched.
How do we leverage that to get more publishers onto the platform? Or is that something we should be looking for every quarter, more publishers can join or we already have enough?
There's never enough.
Correct answer.
Ron, there's never enough.
Yeah.
That was a rhetorical question, you know I would say that. No, when I look at the future of supply, I am seeing three types of supply growth.
Yeah.
One, upsells from within the same publishers, like the NBC ones. I want to see 3x again and again and again whenever I can. We have done such a good job spending a decade building trust with those partners. They know we love them so much.
Yeah.
They love us back. So that is one growth. The second one is what we call liberation. If you work with someone that is not Taboola, we hope to work with you one day.
Sure.
We offer you so much more than money, so you would consider us. DeeperDive, personalization, integration on Taboola News to get traffic, just a variety of things, now full site monetization if that is what you want. Fox News is an amazing partner. I cannot tell you how happy I am because, one, they are great, but two, advertisers adore them. It is such an amazing engaged audience. So the second one is more of that type of win.
Sure. Understood.
The third one is, I always call it like, what's the next Yahoo? Not from that necessarily structure of the deal, more about, I think there's so many other great big-sized consumer companies that are thinking to themselves, how do we tap into performance advertising budgets, and who is big enough to support us, and who is not Google?
Yeah.
I think that's a very short list. We're not the only ones, obviously, but I think we're on that list, and I'm excited about talking to amazing companies that, again, I never thought were in my TAM.
Yeah.
That are in our TAM.
To that, actually, it's a good segue to, I believe the team or you just hired a new Chief Business Officer.
Yeah, Krishan.
First one that the company's had.
Yeah.
If I'm not mistaken. So why now?
We have had as VP of revenue.
Sure.
That is our first kind of like, you know.
Chief level.
Yeah, C-level person in the U.S. I know Krishan for a decade from his days with Linda Yaccarino at NBC.
Okay.
The hardest job of a CEO and the hardest job of any company is building a culture that is a good one, that supports people executing and being happy and attracts other good people. Krishan is such a vote of confidence coming from Amazon coming from NBC, and he is awesome. He has been doing this for 6 months now, doing the work. I am very happy to have him on the team.
Yeah. That is great. We have about two minutes left. I do not know if there are any questions in the audience. If not, think of a question, and we can come back and keep going. Okay. We will keep going here. Let us talk about the business, and so more on the profitability side. I think you have a margin framework that you are-
Right.
reaching towards in terms of growth. Just as the mix shifts towards display, vertical video, DeeperDive, just full-page monetization, talk to us about that long-term view ex-TAC. There is a lot going on here, Adam.
Right.
That's pretty exciting.
First, we optimize for growth first. We do want, as management, we want to have our ex-TAC, which is what's left for us after we share revenue with our partners, which is the most important number for us because we want to do good deals. We want that to be in the double digits. We want to be first in double digits organically, consistently, so investors look at that, and we can look at that and be happy with it. Then we always said that long term, we want to be higher double-digit growth rates, but that's kind of our main priority. From there, we have about 30% EBITDA margin.
Okay.
Which we always, Steve, our CFO, had always spoke about profitable growth. We want to be a company that is not only able to grow faster, take advantage of our unique assets, data, AI, people, partners, all those things. We also want to generate a healthy EBITDA that can support us continue to investing in the business and growing even faster. In times like that, even buying a lot of the shares and owning more of it, which is fantastic.
Yeah.
We convert 60%-70% of EBITDA. I would say our ex-TAC margin tends to be between 35%-40%, sometimes higher, sometimes lower based on different things, but around that. I wouldn't be excited if it's 35%, I wouldn't be excited if it's 39%. It's in that range, and that's what we like to do. Of that, 30% converts to that EBITDA conversion. From that, 67% is free cash flow, which right now most of that is being used to buy shares.
Yeah.
Which is great because we are able to develop DeeperDive and Realize+ and full site monetization and still buy so many shares. I am very proud of the team for being hardworking, executing, and slowly progressing us towards where we need to be. We know where we want to be. We know where we are now.
Perfect. Adam, I could not have ended in a better spot. That is a great way and overview of the business. DeeperDive, seeing greater adoption, more publishers joining the supply, Realize+ automating the process and scale to advertisers. Thank you-
Thank you.
for the time today. I appreciate the time.
Thanks for having me.
Great. Thank you.