Good day, and welcome to the Trinity Industries Third Quarter Results Conference Call. All participants will be in listen only mode. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask Please note this event is being recorded. Before we get started, let me remind you that today's conference call contains forward looking statements as defined by the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and includes statements as to estimates, expectations, Intentions and predictions of future financial performance. Statements that are not historical facts are forward looking.
Participants are directed to Trinity's Form 10 ks and other SEC filings for a description of certain of the business issues and risks, a change in any of which could cause actual results or outcomes to differ materially from those expressed in the forward looking statements. I would now like to turn the conference over to Lee Ann Mann, Vice President of Investor Relations, please go ahead.
Thank you, Eileen. Good morning, everyone. We appreciate you joining us for the company's Q3 2021 Financial Results Conference Call. Our prepared remarks will include comments from Gene Savage, Trinity's Chief Executive Officer and President and Eric Marchetto, the company's Chief Financial Officer. We will hold a Q and A session following the prepared remarks from our leaders.
The reconciliations of the non GAAP metrics Comparable GAAP measures are provided in the appendix of our supplemental slides. The supplemental materials are accessible on our IR website at www. Trend.net. These slides can be found under the Events and Presentations portion of the website, along with the Q3 earnings Conference Call event link. It is now my pleasure to turn the call over to Gene.
Thank you, Leanne, and welcome to Trinity. Good morning, everyone. Trinity had another strong quarter on a consolidated basis and continues to make great strides to optimize returns, highlighted by our newly formed joint venture with Wafra and our new $250,000,000 share repurchase plan, both of which Eric and I will talk about later. Overall, we remain very confident in our ability to execute and hit the targets We shared with you at our Investor Day a year ago. Let me summarize some key things from our Q3.
At the industry level, fundamentals continue to improve broadly, but unevenly. While industrial production levels have ebbed and flowed With supply chain disruptions, overall industrial production is approaching pre pandemic levels And strong North American economic growth is forecasted over the next few years. With these macroeconomic trends, Rail carload volumes are rising from last year's lows. At the same time, the population of railcars in stores is falling with elevated scrapping levels and relatively slower train speeds. From our vantage point, the improving railcar demand recovery We'll continue into 2022, which is very supportive for fundamentals in both of our rail focused business line.
Let's look at the impact of these trends on our consolidated results highlighted on Slide 4. In the Q3, Trinity generated revenue of $504,000,000 up 10% from a year ago. Our GAAP EPS was $0.33 compared to an adjusted EPS of $0.29 We'll detail both businesses in a few minutes, but I think it's important to note the strength of our diversified platform. While our Royal Products Group results may vary from quarter to quarter based on our specific orders delivered, Trinity drove solid and consistent cash flow growth in the Q3. Cash flow from operations totaled $93,000,000 And free cash flow or excess cash after all investments and dividends was 157,000,000 Eric will go into more detail, but the important takeaway here is that our model can drive significant value creation through stable cash flow and the return of capital to shareholders.
In summary, we remain pleased with our execution against our returns optimization initiatives And are equally excited to see continued strength in the industry fundamentals that underpin our future results. Let's turn to slide 5, and we can review the railcar market as a whole. 1st, Rail carloads and traffic continue to improve. The industry carloads are now roughly 6.5% above 2020 year to date. And we're moving closer to pre pandemic levels last seen in 2019.
Railcars and storage Declined 6% compared to a quarter ago, aided by continued scrapping activity and continued deployment of idle assets In key markets, like boxcars, gondolas, hoppers and tank cars. Relative to the modest increase in carload levels, slower train speeds are also helping to drive railcar demand as the average railcar in North America is getting fewer terms. Against that Backdrop, Trinity's fundamental key performance indicators are improving as well. Our utilization improved from last quarter to 95%. And the future lease rate differential, which we call the FLRD, Turned positive and now stands at 1.4% compared to a negative 20.9% just a year ago.
Demand for new railcars has been exciting as well. In the quarter, we took orders for 2,530 new railcars, up 27% compared to a year ago. As we noted last quarter, we believe stronger underlying leasing dynamics and higher car pricing should continue to positively impact our results. And new deliveries will likely trend in line with replacement levels in 20222023. To be clear, The trend may not be linear each quarter as our Rail Products segment results prove.
That said, We remain very encouraged by the industry dynamics in place today. On Slide 6, Let's turn to Trinity segment results for the quarter. In our leasing business, revenue improved slightly compared to last quarter based on a combination of fleet growth, higher utilization rates, and increased servicer fees. Revenue growth in the quarter was also partially offset by lower average lease rates as we cycle through legacy renewals. To contextualize that impact, it's important to note that the forward indicators for lease rates are positive.
Specifically, our renewal rates in the quarter were 7% higher than expirations, And our view on overall lease rate trends remains positive as evidenced by the trend in the FLRD I mentioned earlier. Our margins in leasing and management services were also strong, up 3.40 basis points compared to a quarter ago. Our leasing business benefited from higher servicer fees in the quarter, partially offset by fleet operating costs. We also had modestly higher depreciation, driven by our successful sustainable conversion program, which I'll detail later in my remarks. Recall from our commentary earlier this year that we expect these expenses required to position the lease fleet for increasing demand Will be a headwind to the leasing segment margin for the year.
That said, we believe the headwind in the short term It's a good problem to have, given the value being created by rising demand and the resulting long term returns to Trinity. Now looking at our results in the Rail Products Group. Margin improvement progress year to date was offset by labor shortages and turnover, as well as supply chain disruptions. Specifically, operating margins in the Rail Products Group for the quarter Was a negative 0.9% compared to 1.2% last quarter. The path of the recovery in this segment will likely be less linear given quarter to quarter dynamics like delivery mix, supply chain disruption and labor shortages.
That said, we remain confident based on 2 main indicators for the business. The first is the demand for railcars Continues to rise as evidenced by utilization, lease rates and orders in the quarter. The second key indicator is railcar value. While higher input costs like steel Conserve as a near term headwind to our deliveries, we remain very confident that higher cost will drive higher railcar values and ultimately margins as older orders work through our pipeline. Lastly, it's important to note Now while this quarter was challenged, Trinity continues to make significant progress on our expense optimization initiative and the Rail Products Group.
I'll move to slide 7 with an update on our returns optimization initiatives. We were busy and made some great progress over the quarter. Beginning with our balance sheet, Trinity and WAFRA, an institutional investor, Announce a joint venture partnership that targets $1,000,000,000 of diversified railcar asset sales over the next 3 years. The joint venture is a significant step in our commitment to optimize Trinity's balance sheet and drive ROE. Trinity also renewed our commitment to return capital to shareholders with a new $250,000,000 share repurchase authorization.
In our view, shareholders benefit both from the strong free cash flow that Trinity's portfolio generates and also as we optimize our balance sheet to help drive better returns on equity for the overall enterprise. Touching on our enterprise cost reduction efforts, Trinity disposed of 3 properties in the quarter for a total of $8,000,000 in proceeds and $3,000,000 of gains on asset disposal. In manufacturing, we continue to drive meaningful improvements as our lean initiatives and other cost programs have reduced the breakeven cost of producing a railcar. Turning to our lease fleet optimization, clearly, the Wacker portfolio sale was a key event, driving $325,000,000 in proceeds. Similar to last quarter, We were also busy on the investment side as we spent $112,000,000 in leasing CapEx to add to and improve our lease fleet during the quarter.
Looking at the Q4, we would expect the pace to slow as we onboard and optimize for the actions taken year to date. The key takeaway here is that fleet returns have improved both from mix and the accretive reinvestment of sale proceeds. In addition to portfolio transactions, Trinity closed on a small $4,000,000 secondary market acquisition. In the Q3, our fleet improved as we doubled the volume of sustainable conversions of paint cars, which totaled 242 compared to 119 last quarter. Through the end of the Q3, we have received orders for over 1400 sustainable conversions, which includes a mix of tank and freight cars comprised of internal and external orders.
These sustainable conversions allow us to pivot our fleet by converting or upgrading existing railcars to better meet the challenging demand of the market and to improve the yield of our fleet. This is an important piece to our fleet optimization effort. Lastly, to update on our new products and services, We are on pace with a number of initiatives. For TrendSight, we now have reached our 2021 goal for customers paying subscription fees Additionally, new product development will hit our full goal for 2021. In conclusion, Trinity remains very confident in the 3 year plan we outlined at our Investor Day last fall.
And we still have a number of ongoing initiatives to continue to enhance returns, especially as railcar fundamentals continue to improve into 2022 beyond. Before I hand the call over to Eric, I'd like to take a moment to discuss our focus on sustainability. Trinity is committed to being a market leader in promoting and enhancing The sustainable environmental benefits of rail transportation. We believe a more sustainable transportation system starts With the shift from highway to rail, as rail reduces emissions to move 1 ton of freight 75% as compared to on highway. It leads to less congestion and less wear on our critical infrastructure.
To promote this transition, we prioritize product and service ideas, which enable shippers to improve the efficiency of their supply chain, Moving more freight with fewer railcars and fewer carloads. We've discussed A few of our new products that fulfill this forward thinking, more sustainable vision, including our newest grain car and TrendSight. Trinity has also put great focus in leveraging existing assets to meet new demand through our sustainable conversion program. This eliminates the need to produce an entirely new railcar in certain markets. Earlier this year, we introduced the railcar leasing industry's first green financing framework, And as of quarter end, approximately $4,300,000,000 of our railcar related debt Meets this designation.
At our facilities, we've implemented a number of different programs to reduce emissions, Limit water use and recycle waste. In meeting our purpose to deliver goods for the good of all, We strive to reduce our environmental impact and increase our positive impact on people. With that, let me hand the call over to Eric for more detail on our results.
Thank you, Gene, and good morning, everyone. I will begin on slide 8 with a summary of the quarter. Overall, as Gene said, Trinity continues to benefit from both the steady improvement in railcar demand and our strategic initiatives. Starting with the income statement, 3rd quarter consolidated revenue totaled $504,000,000 up nearly 10% compared to a year ago. This was driven by higher external deliveries in our Rail Products Group as well as continued improvement in leasing fundamentals in the Highway Business.
Adjusted earnings per share of $0.29 Grew both sequentially from $0.15 and year over year from $0.17 driven by a combination of better fundamentals, Gains on lease portfolio sales and our share repurchase activity. Our 3rd quarter results were negatively impacted by accelerated depreciation associated with our sustainable railcar conversion program. Our adjusted EPS number excludes a $0.04 benefit from insurance recoveries related to the tornado damage at our Carter's Oak facility. As discussed, our joint venture portfolio sale Positively impacted our 3rd quarter earnings with a gain of $33,000,000 on our $325,000,000 transaction. In this joint venture, Wapra owns 90% of the equity and Trinity owns the remaining 10%.
Similar to the improvement in lease fundamentals, our new RIV transaction is another example of the broadening market for leased railcar assets. Looking forward to next quarter, we expect our consolidated 4th quarter margins To be relatively consistent with our Q3 results before the impact of lease portfolio sales. Turning to the cash flow statement. Year to date cash flow from operations totaled $428,000,000 Cash flow from operations in the 3rd quarter was $93,000,000 which includes the collection of $41,000,000 of our tax receivable. Our remaining tax receivable is $192,000,000 which is not included in our full year cash flow guidance.
Last quarter, we guided to full year cash flow from operations of $600,000,000 to $650,000,000 Given the higher cost of inventory as well as working capital changes we plan to implement, we are reducing our target. Our revised guidance is a range of $450,000,000 to $475,000,000 This is intentional as we are focused on strategic sourcing to mitigate inflationary pressures and protect against supply chain constraints as we increase the pace of deliveries. In the quarter, we had a net reduction in investment for leasing of approximately $204,000,000 consisting of $112,000,000 of lease fleet investments, more than offset by lease portfolio sales. Year to date, proceeds from lease portfolio sales exceeded the investment in our lease fleet by $41,000,000 Trinity's net lease fleet investment for the full year is now expected to between $40,000,000 $70,000,000 as we continue to make disciplined investments at attractive returns that support our lease optimization initiative. Manufacturing CapEx for the quarter was $4,000,000 which brings our year to date manufacturing CapEx to $22,000,000 Our manufacturing CapEx for the full year is now projected to be between $30,000,000 $40,000,000 Total free cash flow after investments and dividends was $157,000,000 in the 3rd quarter, which brings year to date total to $516,000,000 As Gene noted, the strength of our platform Continues to drive these cash flows and allows Trinity to drive value to shareholders through the return of capital.
Year to date, Trinity has returned nearly $500,000,000 to shareholders with $69,000,000 in dividends and $405,000,000 in share repurchases, which represents approximately 17% of our market capitalization. If we turn to slide 9, let's review our capitalization. Trinity continues to have a very strong financial position, highlighted by quarter end liquidity of $1,100,000,000 even after the return of capital I just discussed. This liquidity provides flexibility as we plan to generate additional shareholder value through disciplined, returns focused Capital allocation. Our strategy to drive returns over asset growth remains unchanged.
Well, we expect to make investments in our lease fleet for growth, especially in markets where we can meet increasing demand, and we remain committed to the return of capital. As you can see from our actions to date, our strong cash flow affords us the ability to do both. This quarter, we completed our previous $250,000,000 share repurchase program and launched a new $250,000,000 authorization that runs through 2022. We continue to optimize our balance sheet and improve our return on equity, which is a key focus of our long term strategy. In closing, we are progressing well against our strategic plan.
We are proud that Trinity continues to execute against our goals. While Trinity is not immune to the challenges of the current operating environment, Our financial position showcases the resilience of our platform and the ability to deliver returns through the cycle. As the market recovers, we will demonstrate the power of our platform to generate attractive risk adjusted returns. Eileen, you may now take us to questions for our participants.
We will now begin the question and answer session. Our first question today comes from Matt Elkott with Cowen.
Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. Jean, Eric, Canadian National said that The one thing that I'm most enthusiastic about is the green energy carloads related to Alberta's growth in hydrogen energy projects. They said that the potential is the peak of the crude by rail, but only Much more sustainable. Is that something that presents an opportunity for you guys?
Yes. Matt, thank you for the question. And We have looked at hydrogen and continue to look at the different types of fuels that may be able to be Transferred by rail. It's on the radar. We're doing some development on that, and we'll continue and hope that overall That the government approves the movement by rail for the hydrogen.
Okay. And if such an approval is granted, How much lead time should we expect before you guys have an appropriate car for that?
It would really depend on, we have a design that would fit fairly well. So it would come down To the testing that would be required by the different governments or countries to put that on real.
Got it. And just one more question on the GuardRail business. Is the improvement in anticipation of the infrastructure bill? And can you just talk broadly about how exposed to infrastructure the infrastructure bill this business is And maybe address some of the remaining small litigation risk on the state level.
Sure. I'll start out with saying that the highway business team did a great job. They had the best third quarter ever In the history of our highway business this past quarter, the business is improving because of the input cost A lot. So that is we're able to pass that on along with the freight costs. So you see that in the revenue.
When you're looking at the infrastructure bill, will it have an impact? Yes. But it's most likely At least 6 months to 12 months out. The bill has to be passed. They have to get the Programs or the construction approved, and then they normally buy the guardrail portion later in the cycle, So closer to when they're ready to start that construction.
So that would happen. On litigation, you've seen smaller changes In our releases, on what's going on there, we are seeing less new litigation come in. It's been dropping over the last few years and we expect that trend to continue. And I think, Matt, did I get everything you were asking or did you have a follow-up?
I believe so. I know it was a 3 part question, But I would imagine on the demand front related to the infrastructure bill, even if there's a 6 to 12 month lag For the it's reflected in the business, I would imagine that the confidence will Increased immediately after the passage of the bill and that could lead to some at least inquiry activity. Is that reasonable?
I think it is. I think people may pre start some projects or they may go ahead with some, but we'll have to wait and see When it gets passed and what confidence it puts out there.
Okay. And when you guys spun off Arcosa A few years ago, you understandably kept the guardrail business as the only non railcar business because of the litigation at the time, Which is largely out of the way now. Would you be open to divesting this business for the right valuation, especially that Now, it's an infrastructure play and it might be in high demand?
Well, Matt, I have said in the past that We believe the long term best owner for that business would not be Trinity as we focus more on the rail industry. But we would have to get into the right dynamics, the right situation for us to be able to sell that. So it is on the table and we have talked about that prior.
Thank you very much, Jean.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Allison Poliniak with Wells Fargo.
Hi, good morning.
Hi, Margaret.
Just want to turn to the input cost inflation that you kind of called out for manufacturing. I guess, one, is it steel or is it actually the components that you're seeing the most inflation? And I guess, you had mentioned some older contracts. Is there a way to think about How that evolves where some of these input inflations start to get rolled into the contracts going forward in terms of deliveries? Any color there?
Yes, Allison, this is Eric. I would just say, in the quarter, it was more probably steel and surcharge related than specialty components, But you also had things like industrial gases being interrupted, both Oxygen, nitrogen, so those all all those things as those gases switch to We're diverted to hospital usage because of COVID. So that certainly had an impact. I think on the specialty side, There's probably some pressure down the road on specialty components. So you have that.
In terms of the backlog and how it works through, As Jean said in her comments, it's probably less than it's not going to be just linear. There will be as we work through some of the older contracts, Whether they are fixed price or escalatable, they were taken in times when the demand environment was not as good as it is now. And so you'll have that coming through over the next quarter or 2.
Got it. Thanks. And then just a bigger question. Gene, Jamie, you had mentioned your comfort with deliveries sort of reaching that replacement level. One pushback we're getting quite a bit is obviously rails aren't Operating as efficiently as they would hope, just given some of the network challenges that we're just kind of to some extent not throwing capacity at the situation, but some of these cars Could actually reverse some of that demand.
Any color there in terms of how you're thinking about that? Or is it just really comfort with that replacement level kind of moving forward With limited impact from some stuff kind of returning to storage here?
Sure, Allison. So, when you look at the number of cars getting scrapped per year, Remember, we have scrapped around 50,000 in the last 2 years. We're on pace to do that and maybe a little bit more this year. And the car types that are getting scrapped, many of those have high demand right now. So they're going to need those replacement cars, If it's Fox Cars or Green Cars or others.
So our confidence and what we've laid out there for demand for the industry for the Couple of years of 40,000 to 50000 is really based off replacing the cars that are in scrap right now. So, it's not a large increase overall in demand.
Got it. Understood. Thanks for the time. Thank you.
Our next question comes from Gordon Johnson with GLJ Research.
Hey, guys. This is James Badowski in for Gordon. Thanks for taking my questions. So I guess the first one is it relates to the new JV. Was that for about 2,000 railcars, give or take?
No,
it was 3,000 600 railcars. It's about 36 100 railcars and there's more there'll be more detail obviously in our Q. There's also an 8 ks that we filed in August that has a lot of those details as well. It was about 3,600 railcars and the proceeds were $325,000,000 and I'll just go ahead and talk about it a little bit is That joint venture, we think, really demonstrates our platform. It solves a lot of the initiatives that It's something that we're doing in line with all the initiatives that we have in terms of optimizing our lease fleet and our balance sheet.
Right. Okay. That's helpful. Clearly, that affects your utilization rate as well as your loan to value ratio. Is that fair to say?
And secondly, without that sale, what would the utilization rate have been?
Okay. So it would slightly impact utilization rate by making it a little bit lower. The railcars that we sold, those 3,600 railcars We're all utilized, so it does reduce the you're selling a 3% of the portfolio and 100% that does make it a little bit lower. But I don't have the I haven't done the math to tell you what it is offhand, but I think you can do that, Matt. Okay.
In terms of the loan to value, certainly, the proceeds of 3 $25,000,000 some of those railcars were unencumbered, some of those came out of some of our debt facilities. And so there's a lot of ins and outs. At the end of the day, our leverage for our wholly owned fleet went up slightly In the quarter, it's about 63%.
Yes. So that is within your earlier range that you previously guided. Is there any change in terms of your strategy right now, in terms of capital allocation?
Sure, James. Yes, you're right. We've put the target we've put out was 60% to 65%, and we are now kind of in the midpoint of that range. That range is still our near and midterm range. We haven't made any change, but we still certainly have flexibility To change that, but right now that is still our range.
Okay, great. And then just a couple more, I'll try to speed through them. But you mentioned that you were going to focus on accelerating deliveries. Can you just let us know how much of your backlog you anticipate shipping this year?
So, I think we talked about getting cars ready for delivery so They could go in the market quicker, but market activity remains strong. And For the year, I don't know that we came out with what percentage?
It's in the queue in terms of How much of our backlog is delivering this year and it's about 32%, 31.8% is what will be in the queue for What are the percentage of our delivery that will deliver in 2021? That's of our new railcar delivery.
Got it,
Got it.
And this I'll cut it off here as a final question since it is a very loaded question. I do apologize for that. But given the rising costs that we are seeing, Is there any way you could decipher how much of the upward pressure you're seeing at lease rates today is a factor of improving conditions versus simply The lessor is passing on higher costs. And with that, I'll say thank you, Gene and Eric, very much.
You bet.
Yes, thanks. So, when you're looking at the rate changes that we're seeing, a lot of that has to do with supply and demand. In the markets where you have fewer cars available, we're absolutely seeing the rate increase. I mentioned that we had a 7% in the quarter Increase on the renewal rate versus expiring rate and that our forward looking FLRD Was positive. So that means looking at the cars that will be coming off of lease or expiring, we're expecting to see an increase overall In those rates.
So it's still a positive trend for us.
Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much again, guys.
Thanks, Gene.
Our next question comes from George sellers with Stephens Inc.
Hey, good morning.
Good morning, Tom. Hi, George.
So I guess my first question, you talked about railcar valuations increasing and I'm just curious, So I know pricing varies by car type, but could you talk about the percentage increase you've generally seen in new railcars? And then how much of that is a function of higher commodity prices versus more just core pricing trends?
So George, obviously mix and car types matter and the amount of steel matters. We've talked on when you have some of the input costs that have doubled and tripled over the last release from a pre pandemic level, That has translated into car prices being anywhere from 20% to 30% higher. And how much of that is steel and input cost? A lot of it is still in input costs and it depends on there is a margin component to it and it probably depends on where you're starting from. So margins have improved over the last couple of quarters, but I would say much more of the Increase is related to just the inflationary pressures on new railcars and that just ties into As an owner of 105,000 existing railcars, those 105,000 railcars benefit greatly From the higher input costs on the 2,200 cars that we delivered this quarter.
And so that's really where we get into Where we see railcar valuations getting impacted is those new railcar prices give the existing railcars more room To run-in terms of lease rates and in terms of valuations from a depreciated replacement value level. So that's really where we get Excited about the future with Police Sleep.
Okay. That's helpful. And then you talked about the backlog, But could you say how much of the current backlog is going to be delivered to the lease fleet in the Q4?
I did not get into that, but I got to look at that queue. I may have to hold on. Give me a minute, I'll come back and find that one.
Okay.
That's 34% of our deliveries are related to the leasing company in the Q4.
Got you. Okay, that's helpful.
Remember in the past, we've told you that typically the railroads and the 3rd party The source will come in and buy new cars first. That's still occurring right now. We're getting some secondary market or And shippers buying, but the majority are still railroad first and then third party lessors.
Okay. That's really helpful. I'll leave it there. Thank you all for the time.
Thanks, George.
Our next question comes from Bascome Majors with Susquehanna.
Yes, thanks. Good morning and thanks for taking my questions. In the spring and even in the summer, you had talked about how you were really well positioned on manufacturing labor, being Employer of choice in East Texas and the regions you're in, in Mexico, it does seem like that has become more challenging. Can you unpack to us kind of what changed in the last 3 months and maybe give us a little bit of visibility into Regionally or functionally, we are having the most challenge with labor and how you feel that's trending as we get deeper into the Q4? Thank you.
Sure, Bassam. This is Jane. I'll take that. So, we were very fortunate during the beginning of the pandemic not to have the And as we've gotten further in, it was just this past quarter that we started to see something. Some of it we think is transitory and that's going to be some of the gases that Eric already talked about, where there was a short term disruption in supply, And then we had some valves.
As far as the labor, in Mexico, it's still very strong, very low Turnover, very low shortages. But in the U. S, just like I think every other company who has labor Is experiencing some of the higher turnover as people are leaving for other jobs or even retiring And taking themselves out of the marketplace. So that came in, again more the Q3 for us. And it's something that we'll continue to work on like everyone else, making sure that we're positioning ourselves in the best place to respond to the needs of the market.
Have your pain points in the U. S. Started to stabilize? Do they feel like They're getting worse. Just curious where that stands versus the surprise you started
to feel in the quarter.
So the beginning of the quarter was a little less. It went up and it's pretty much stabilized from there. So it's again just us getting Now, the resource is in place to be able to make sure we continue to meet all the demand.
Thank you. And you gave your future lease rate differential and it was encouraging to see that Inflect positively for I think the first time since you've been reporting that metric. Correct.
Can you give a sense of
What that feels like on the ground is there I mean, are we approaching a point where this price escalation in new cars, which you talked about on a previous question, Is creating that faster inflection that you tend to see in up cycles where lease rates can move very quickly? I'm just Are we there yet? Are we getting there? Is that in your sight? Just any thoughts on the Supply demand dynamic tied into new car price inflation
and what that means for lease rates in the next year.
I'll start on that and then turn it over to Eric. Now remember that our fleet does expire at different times. So about 17% to 20% of fleet expires each year. So when you're looking at change of that lease rate, It is over many years to work through all of them. We mentioned the 7% increase On renewal rates versus expiring for the quarter, but the overall average lease rate for the quarter still had some headwinds.
So it's Still down a little bit. So I think it will take time to work all the way through, but we are encouraged with seeing the renewals go up. And in the markets where the supply demand metric is more towards needing more supply, you'll see that move quicker than some of the other areas. Eric, would you add?
Yes. Bascome, I would just add to Gene's comments that it does change car type by car type, but In absolute terms, newer railcar prices, which lead to higher new car lease rates, Will cause existing car rates to allow existing car rates to come up as you price them. But then also, we've seen steady for 15 months railcars coming out of the storage. It is that metric. So the fleet continues to get tighter, both from attrition and from increased railcar loadings.
So both those things, Increased railcar loadings or needing more railcars to move the same freight. So all of those factors are Tailwinds to demand for existing assets and new assets and should lead to opportunities to improve pricing. I think that's one of the benefits of our platform is as a large manufacturer, as a large lease company, with our maintenance operations, We see the market and we generally are able to see these points of inflection quickly and respond accordingly.
Thank you for that. And maybe to just put a period on that discussion, and I apologize if you mentioned this in prepared remarks, I was hopping calls. But Is there a way to think about I mean, I know spot is not the right word, but kind of an incremental current renewal rate And how that's trending quarter over quarter or month over month? Just any sense of the sequential improvement you're seeing With the caveat that we understand that the renewals happen slowly and the overall average lease rate of
the portfolio takes a while to move. Thank you.
Sure, Bascome. And the market activity has absolutely been increasing. And so, Sequentially increasing, very, very strong for us as far as renewal rates or assignment rates that go into that. And then we are still seeing a lot of activities for quotes for new cars, And we see orders continuing to come through on that.
Thank you. Thanks, Justin.
Our final question today comes from Steve Barger with KeyBanc Capital Markets.
Thanks. Good morning. Can you quantify the labor and supply chain issues in the rail group? I'm just trying to get a sense for how much of the operating loss was that
All three of them play a role in the results that we had Going through, so when you're looking at supply chain, the inefficiencies that come in from not having gases to be able to do the work you need to do Or another example of the valve that you need to put on play into the fact that you can't get the work done on The time that you wanted to, then you also have the fact that you either have turnover or labor shortages to be able to do that work. So, when you put all those together, it absolutely has an impact. We've not gone through to say, You know, is that 25%, 30%, but when you combine all of them, I think you're going to hear most Industries or industrials talking about that impact for the quarter.
And Steve, we've talked in the previous call about this Our order outlook being more freight car centric. And so that's there, but I wouldn't call that out as a Change from, say, the Q2 to Q3 in terms of mix. It's the reason why we're calling out the labor and the supply chain Because those are the biggest drivers.
Got you. And Eric, I just want to make sure I understand your comment on what 4Q could look like. If you don't sell more cars into the JV, then plus or minus 4Q seems like it's going to look more like 1Q, Given the loss from the rail group, and I think most of your EPS came from the gain on sale this quarter, right?
So my comments in the Q4 were around margins before you take the impact of car sales, It was on margin percentages. So when you just take the revenue that we said the margin percentages would look similar when you exclude that. So I think that's A good way to think about it from those numbers. In terms of The car sales, I wouldn't we did $325,000,000 of car sales to Wapher in In the Q3, as we talk about, that's more of a programmatic over the next 3 years. I wouldn't expect those large we're not planning the Wofford transaction in the 4th quarter.
Okay. How about the first part of next year? Is it can you
It's a 3 year deal over with $1,000,000,000 so you think about it ratably Over that time.
Got it. And so if 4Q looks like 3Q for the Rail Group, then the Rail Group is not going to contribute to operating income this year. Do you think 4Q will be trough for Rail Group margins or given recent ASPs for new orders, should we be tempering our expectations for the OEM business
Remember, I said it won't be a linear trajectory for the Royal Products Group. So it's really going to depend on the mix and the volume that are going through that. I would expect To see improvement, I'm just saying it may not be linear. And so we do have a lot of the optimization initiatives and lean initiatives That are still going on that occur through the full 3 year period that we laid out in Investor Day. And as each of those complete, you'll see different types of improvements flow through our results.
But is it fair to say that given the ASPs that you've taken over the last couple of quarters and the volumes that you expect that the margins Are not going to rebound sharply in the first half of twenty twenty two?
I think the ASPs really reflect more of the mix In the margins, I wouldn't read too much into the ASP from a margin profile standpoint. That's more about the mix as I think I talked about the margins on new railcars that we're taking are improving Because it's a better demand environment than what we did in fact say in during the height of the pandemic. And so from that standpoint, as backlog stabilize, as backlog start to extend, then generally in the manufacturing side, you start to see Margins expand as well. With all of this supply chain disruptions and labor, Etcetera, we're just being cautious about getting ahead of ourselves in terms of expectations because there's a lot of noise In the results. And so but generally speaking, the demand profile is improving, which leads to the pricing environment improvement.
Okay. And last one for me. Can you just talk a little bit more about the sustainable railcar conversion program? How are you converting them to make them more sustainable?
So as the markets change, we look and see that Maybe you have a car type you could put into a different market and have better utilization and higher yield. So we can do some modification work to that, Be it retaking, putting a different hopper on, things like that to go ahead and reposition that car And improve overall utilization and improve yield.
Are you doing that on a speculative basis or in to a customer saying, I want a new railcar. I don't want to pay the full railcar price and you finding a creative way to say, well, I can do some work to this Carr, and maybe make it suitable for your purposes?
Great question. And we continue to say that we want to utilize existing railcars first, Our existing assets, and that's what we're doing here. Instead of building a new car and having the older assets sitting there, maybe not as utilized, We're making the choice to when it makes sense financially and from a return standpoint to convert that car and put it to use
But you're doing that proactively or in response to customer Requests.
It's in response to customer requests. We're not doing anything like that proactively. We either have orders from external customers We have orders that we need to fill from our lease fleet.
And just last one, how many cars in your fleet or in the total fleet do think lend themselves to conversion?
Steve, I mean that's going to be in the eye of the owner and each fleet owner is going to have Different things, when you think about some of the other some of the car types that were recently have been softer rehab, Lower utilization, you think of the small cube covered hoppers, where that fleet got Ahead of itself as demand change, as car loadings change. So those are relatively young assets and so those fit. Each owner is going to make a decision. We've made and the same goes on tank cars where you've had tank cars. Some of the Sandable conversions are things that you can do, re tank tank cars, etcetera, so all of those have an impact.
It depends on the underlying age of the ramp car.
And it goes to the strength of our platform again. We have the capability of doing those conversions in their own maintenance shops. So it does help meet the demand for the customers and provide us a more sustainable product overall.
Thanks very much.
Thank you. Thank you.
This concludes our question and answer session. I'd like to turn the call back over to Leanne Mann for some closing remarks.
Thank you, Eileen. A replay of today's call will be available after 10:30 am Eastern Time through midnight on October 28, 2021. The replay number is 877 3447529 with an access code of 10,152,033. A replay of the webcast will also be available under the Events and
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