Leproust, and CFO Adam Laponis. I'm Vijay Kumar, the Device & Life Science Analyst at Evercore. Emily, Adam, thank you for the time this morning.
Thanks for the invitation.
Fantastic. So maybe we'll start with a review of what happened, you know, Q4. This has been like a clockwork, right? Another beat for you guys. You know, when you look at the performance, anything stand out for you? Were internal expectations? You know, what came in better? Any phasing issues?
No, thanks for the question. So maybe I'll start. The key for us is our model is you ramp revenue, and you get 75%-80% of the revenue growth that rocks the gross margin line. Show some discipline on the OpEx line. It's a sustainable model where if we keep doing that, then there'll be some inflationary increase in costs. If we keep doing that, we'll be able to get to just a little breakeven without needing to raise capital. That's our North Star to our investors. That revenue ramp is not an accident. We've built a platform that's based on deep knowledge of DNA synthesis, on automation, miniaturization. Now we've added competency around enzyme engineering. With that platform, we're able to launch a portfolio of products that are highly differentiated and highly competitive.
On the SynBio side, the investment in the Express Portfolio has paid off. About a year ago, we've launched the Express Genes for half of the volume. Then in January, we've launched the Express Genes fully. Then we've launched the Express Prep and the Express IgG. We also have Express Fragment in NGS. We've been speccing in liquid biopsy products, as well as rare disease diagnostic products. And we're expanding into RNA-seq. We're expanding into mRNA. We're expanding into microarray to NGS conversion. So it's not an accident. We have been launching, we've been leveraging our R&D engine to launch new products, again, that leverage the platform. And so that's how we can keep quarter after quarter ramping revenue.
Of course, that has been coupled with what I call commercial velocity, where we have the e-commerce, we have inside sales, we have the digital marketing, we have our account managers, where we're able to meet customers. It can be tier one, where it's multimillion dollars, all the way down to tier four, where they spend less than $25,000 a year. We'll be able to transact in a way that's very efficient. I think the business model is working. Now we've been showing it quarter after quarter, and we'll keep doing it. I don't know if there's anything else.
No more said. Great. And maybe off of those comments, macro environment, how would you characterize the current environment? Stable, improving. And do you typically see any year-end budget flush? Is that a driver for Twist?
Yeah, we call it pharma Christmas. So it does happen. I think in general, the last few years, the macro environment on the biopharma side was tighter budget, which I think is a good fit with our brand. Our brand is around high quality, the best quality you can get, high speed, but at a great price, a very compelling price structure. Some companies focus on premium pricing. What we focus on is premium gross margin dollars. And so our prices are always very compelling, and customers really resonate to not having to compromise quality for a great price. And so that has been one of the enablers of our success in SynBio is the last few years when biopharma companies had more constrained funding. That combination of great quality, great speed at a great price has been a winning combination.
And so it seems like the biopharma environment is improving. But that combination can be useful, so low in academia. If in the future academic budgets are a little bit constrained, we can use that same recipe to keep taking market shares. We are very early in our shares, especially in academia. And so we're nowhere near saturation. And so we can use that recipe of speed, quality, and price to keep winning market share.
Gotcha. Obviously, with elections, a lot of changes being proposed at HHS, CMS, NIH, et cetera. What is your exposure to NIH? And historically, have you had sensitivity to NIH budgets?
So we have very low exposure to NIH, and it's less than 1%. Although it's a growth opportunity for us because we have very low exposure, and so to the extent that if there is funding pressure, that could be an opportunity for us, again, to leverage our positioning.
Gotcha. And, Emily, I think one of the things post-elections has come up is on macro sort of for us to the space. I think you guys are in a unique position given your manufacturing location. Are customers asking you on where you manufacture your products? And have you started seeing any customer wins because of this phenomena?
So when BIOSECURE happened, again, as a making sure that it's clear that the BIOSECURE does not include DNA synthesis so by bio manufacturing and genetic analysis, but the talk about BIOSECURE, the BIOSECURE Act, I think that's starting to raise the awareness with our customers about their supply chain, and so our view is we will win by winning. Again, our products are better, they're faster, they're cheaper, and so compared to our China-made competition, we will win on the basis of our products to the extent that there is some supply chain question that may be a tailwind for us, and we are seeing that people are significantly more aware now than they were when BIOSECURE happened. It's definitely more top of mind to the supply chain people we talk to, and our positioning is if you're concerned and you're switching, you're switching to something better, right?
Again, for us, it's important to win by winning.
Gotcha. And so would you say you're winning more versus historical, or how would you characterize given this increased awareness of supply chain by your customers?
So we give guidance for Q1, and we've given guidance for the year at our last earnings call. I think any geopolitical issue will be a headwind for our competition and would be a tailwind for us. And so time will tell. But again, the positioning to our customers is they don't have to compromise anything. It's going to be faster, cheaper, better, and made in either Portland or California. People, they can come visit, they can see the amazing technology. I think the comments that I always get is, where is everybody? Nothing's happening in this fab. There's no chicken running around with no head. It's actually a great platform. It's a great technology. We don't need a lot of people, and it's humming. And you walk around and you feel like not much is happening.
But last year, that was a $313 million business and growing fast with capacity on track to get to $700 million. And so we are ready. We tell our customers, you can back up the truck. We have capacity. We have great product. And so I think we have an opportunity to do well.
And Vijay, to that point, I think we are seeing increased new accounts. We are seeing expansion within all of our accounts. It's oftentimes hard to say whether it's the express offering or it's our continued execution or it's the geopolitical macro environment driving it. But I think the commentary I give is in the last number of quarters, the customers saying, hey, asking the question, tell me about your supply chain. Tell me about where you manufacture. The conversation is shifting, but it's really hard to pinpoint a specific win because of just that. But it is definitely more top of mind than it was a year ago.
That's helpful, Adam, and maybe one for you: you noted on your recent fourth quarter call, Twist would stop disclosing orders going forward, and that was a helpful metric for us to look at. Maybe walk us through on why that's not a relevant metric for us to be looking at going forward.
No, it's a great question. We spent a lot of time talking about it internally. And if you kind of rewind the clock when Twist went out initially publicly, we were a lot slower at our turnaround time. So whether it be SynBio or the NGS side, it would be orders coming in now that we'd be talking about for the next quarter or subsequent quarter revenue. In the last year, particularly with the launch of the Express Portfolio, not just the genes, but everything from fragments all the way downstream to IgG, turnaround times are measured in days. So the value of that order to revenue metric is losing its utility, particularly as we shorten that timeline for turnaround. So we're really focused on, as a company, we're not metricing anybody internally on order volume. We don't even track it very closely outside of the biopharma business.
We're focusing on the revenue, and we're focusing on the gross profit dollars. From that perspective, we say it's time to make the shift. We are still going to be providing the visibility into the orders on the biopharma side because it does have that longer three- to nine-month lead time. But that, from a predictability perspective, we feel the revenue is a much better indicator of how the business is performing.
Gotcha. And how would you characterize your current order momentum here as you're looking at fiscal 2025?
We don't want to give any incremental updates to guidance. I'd say from where we stand right now, the guide we gave, we're seeing the continued sequential improvement in orders and revenue in 2025 from where we were in 2024, and we're feeling pretty optimistic about not just the way we're seeing the business develop, but the continued sequential improvements that we saw last year, that same track record continuing into 2025 and beyond.
Gotcha. So we are seeing sequential improvements in orders.
Yeah.
That's helpful. Emily, maybe high level, I know you mentioned Twist products are faster, better. Maybe explain what that means, right? Why are you faster? Why is Twist better? And why can your peers offer similar capabilities?
Yeah. So that's a very broad question, but just look at products. If you want to get a clonal gene, for instance, we can ship a clonal gene in five days, and we make all the genes in five days. And our competition, they can make a few genes in five days, but most of their genes are in 10 days. And so that's just speed. If you look at our IgG, we can provide an Express IgG in 13 days, which is industry leading. If you're looking at the NGS side, if you want custom panels with a million probes, we can ship that in two weeks. Our competitors will need several months to make a million probes for a custom panel. If you look at, so that's the speed angle. If you look at the quality angle on the gene side, there it's perfect gene.
So you can't be more perfect than perfect. But if you look on the fragment side, the quality of our fragment is such that our competitor, they don't ship fragment above 1.8 kb. We ship fragments up to 5 kb because the quality is so good that we can make those genes longer. The quality of our oligosynthesis is so high that we can directly synthesize 500 base pairs. We ship 500 base pair direct synthesis. That's the multiplex gene fragment business. On the NGS side, on the quality, the evenness of the oligo for our pools is such that we lower the cost of sequencing by half. And it's not just me saying it. Our customers are saying, oh, we switch from this chemistry to that chemistry. Our COGS, our gross margin, our COGS goes down by half. So our gross margin gets better.
If you look at the quality of the ligation in the laboratory prep workflow, ligation is a key step where usually half of the molecules are left behind. We engineer the new ligase where now we have 100% ligation. So for assays that are very sensitivity limited, such as liquid biopsy, MRD, we can boost the sensitivity with the new ligase. So really quality is also very important. And then in terms of cost angle, just head to head, our fragments are cheaper, our genes are cheaper. On the NGS side, we don't play as much the price game. Our price is the same as the competition. But if you switch to Twist, you save on the sequencing, therefore you're better. So those are just a few examples. And the reason for why it's no accident is because of the platform we've built, the silicon chip.
It's a really hard technology to master, but we've mastered it. And on the silicon technology, we can lower the number of reagents we need. And so we use less reagent, therefore our costs are lower. And that's why we have a cost advantage. And also because we use less reagent, our carbon usage, our emissions are better. And the statistics is if you buy a gene from the competition, it's the same as driving a car for 59 miles. And buying a gene from Twist is the same as driving a car for 0.09 miles. So you buy one gene a day from Twist, you save your commute away, right? And so that is also very important to buy from our company.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the silicon technology that we've built brings all of those advantages of speed, cost, and quality.
That's helpful. And when you look at NGS, that's been a phenomenal business for you guys, right? Again, talking about new products, right? That's a new area that you entered in. It's done really well over the last three years. What is your customer mix within NGS, right? How much of this is clinical versus government, academia, or pharma?
I think the vast majority of current NGS customers are clinical customers. At the same time, however, we have invested in new product launches. We've invested in RNA-seq, which is squarely designed to boost our revenue in R&D, in research, academia. And then we've recently launched Express Prep, which is a very innovative approach to laboratory prep to enable microarray to NGS conversions. And so today is mostly focused on clinical diagnostics, the revenue, I don't want to say concentration, but focus. But we have plans and products in place to expand and diversify it.
Gotcha. And Adam, maybe one for you. When you look at the NGS growth, it accelerated year on year fiscal 2024 versus in the 2023. What drove that? Was that new account wins, customer wins, or perhaps some of your customers maybe commercializing their tests? Give us a flavor on the growth drivers.
Vijay, it's a really interesting market because it is such a long lead time from, I'll call it the initial customer conversion to that commercial ramp on the diagnostic side. What we saw in 2024 was we did see an expansion in the number of NGS accounts. And so when we disclose that, we're up over 600 customers buying NGS in Q4. But the vast majority of the revenue growth is coming from that commercial adoption phase. So it's customers who have been with us for oftentimes a number of years, and now we're helping them ramp into their commercial adoption. And that's really exciting. The hard part for that element of the business is getting the exact timing of someone else's commercial ramp right and the exact steepness of the slope right is difficult to predict.
We want to always be on the right side of that adoption curve when we guide. But we also want to have the supply chain capabilities to be there for our customers. Oftentimes we're helping someone ramp. They make a mistake in the predictions, and they're going a lot faster than they thought. We're always there to say, hey, we got you covered. And we are the one throat to choke in terms of making sure that their supply chain is stable, even if their forecasts aren't. So what we are seeing though in that ramp is we did see commercial adoption continue in 2024. And I always say if you ramp in Q1 of the week one of a quarter versus week 10 of a quarter, it doesn't really affect the long term, but it really matters to that quarter.
So let's not get overly aggressive on exactly when those and how those ramps will look.
Nice. That's helpful. And when you think about those kind of phasing issues, anything that we need to be aware of within the fiscal 2025 guide framework?
No, I think I expect to see the sequential growth in the NGS business every quarter. We have not assumed a significant growth from the MRD side of the business in 2025's guide. We said, hey, we've got a lot of customers who are in the R&D phases of MRD, I'll call it generation two. We're really excited about that as a long-term opportunity. But we said, hey, we see that being more of a meaningful impact to revenue in 26 and beyond.
Gotcha, and Emily, since Adam brought up MRD, how big could that opportunity be, right? Or I guess what needs to happen for that opportunity to materialize? Do we need some regulations? Is it reimbursement? How are you thinking about MRD?
Yeah. At the end of the day, so right now we have not a lot of exposure to MRD, although some companies have shown that the MRD market can be very successful. At the end of the day, if there's a clinical utility where you can detect an early recurrence at the right price point, so that has a significant value, and if on top of that you can demonstrate to insurance companies that paying for the test saves cost for the treatment downstream, then it can create a very, very big market, so at the end of the day, our view is about providing tools to customers that will provide tests to patients.
And we want our tools to be as fast, as cost-effective as possible, such that the combination of performance and price to either the patient or the insurance is such that it becomes a no-brainer for every cancer patient to be tested. And so we want to do our part. We know that it is a price-sensitive market. And by providing our DNA in a way that is fast and at a competing price point, we enable our customers to develop patient-specific or tumor-informed panels and deliver them fast so that the needle-to-needle, the time to test is very short. So we'll make our parts by providing DNA panels workflows that are fast, price-competing, and very high quality. And I think that's the opportunity to both change a lot of lives and create economic value and opportunities for us and our customers.
Gotcha. And I think customer concentration is something that comes up. You said 40% of NGS revenues come from your top 10 customers. When you think about NGS growth, how much of that do you expect to be driven by these top 10 customers versus expanding into other accounts? When you look at that market, right, what is your penetration and future potential for share gains?
No, it's a great question, Vijay. And if I think about the top 10, just hitting on that, we've said we have about over 150 accounts have commercially adopted us. So of the 600 ordering, the commercial adoption is about a quarter of that. Those top 10 aren't the same every quarter. And so part of what we have is there is an inherent lumpiness to this business that is folks are ramping. The best way to manage that is to add more lumps. And so for us, what we've seen is we continue to add new customers. And those customers who are not yet clinically adopted, as they become commercially adopted, that will continue to decrease the amount of customer concentration. None of it concerns me as I look forward. I see it as an opportunity to continue to grow within the commercial adoption.
As reimbursement comes online and new tests get brought online as well with those accounts, but also as we ramp into other accounts where I think we see it as we're more of the arms dealer in this case, and as long as there's multiple customers in a particular category winning, we feel really confident in our ability to help them. Some of the accounts won't be succeeding, but that's more the science that will determine who wins and who loses.
Gotcha. And I know you don't have an LRP right now, but if I just look at the fiscal 2025 guidance framework, right, like high teens for the year at the midpoint, is NGS longer term? Should that be about corporate, in line with corporate, below corporate? And when you think about beyond the top 10 customers, right, could that end up being a more meaningful driver as you look at that LRP framework?
No, it's a great question. I wouldn't want to say I see both the SynBio and the NGS side of the business having significant opportunities for long-term growth. I think in any given year or any given period, you could see one growing faster than the other. But when we look out multi-years out, we see them both being very significant contributors to our growth long-term.
Gotcha. And then Emily, maybe switching gears to SynBio, maybe talk about your customer within SynBio. What is pharma versus industrial, food, and applied in that segment?
So we don't sort it out by SynBio. I think what we've said is for the entire company, more than 50% of our revenues are in healthcare. And so that applies for both SynBio and NGS. And so we do have significant exposure to biopharma. And that is our number one exposure for SynBio. And then after that, we also have exposure to industrial chemical and research, so academia. Historically, we have focused less on academia. And the reason is our view is people rob banks because of where the money is. And so we've gone after the industrial accounts because it was faster to ramp. Now that we have the product and the channels with our digital e-commerce, our e-commerce, and inside sales and sales team, we were able to deploy and go after the long tail of academia.
We do know that academia is an under-explored opportunity for us. And we have the products to be able to serve their need. And in academia, as always, there's a lot of makers. And with our Express Portfolio, we'll be able to convert some of those makers into buyers. And we are already seeing it. People were buying short fragments when we could only make up to 1.8 KB fragments. So they were buying short fragments and they were stitching it together. So they were buyers of fragments and they will make them into genes. And when we launched our Express Fragment, we saw a conversion of saying, well, I'll stop making it. I'll buy it from you now. And so we are starting to see some of that makers to buyer conversion working.
Understood. And then a similar question similar to the NGS question, right? When you look at the growth acceleration in fiscal 2024 on the SynBio side, what drove that acceleration? Was that just customer timing and any customer concentration risk when you look at SynBio?
A lot of it is the Express Portfolio that enabled us to gain new accounts, enabled us to within accounts be able to get more of the wallet share. And we saw customers that maybe were buying from two different suppliers. And now that we had a very unique and highly differentiated offering, concentrated more of their buying on us and so less of a split production. There's also an expansion with new products. So some customers were buying preps and they will make their own IgG. And we're seeing it now. People are like, well, I've tried your IgG and I'll stop making my own IgG. And so it's really that Express Portfolio that's enabling us to either take market share away from competition or enabling those makers to buyer conversions.
At the end of the day, it's all rooted in that highly differentiated products that came from the platform.
Gotcha. And I know data storage comes up. Twist continues to, I think, invest quite meaningfully, right? $25 million or so. That's the level of investments that you've committed to. Anything that we should be looking at when you look at fiscal 2025 from a catalyst standpoint on data storage side?
Yeah, I think for us, we think we're building a valuable asset. There's a great opportunity, a huge market. And DNA has the opportunity to be a different media that has a total cost of ownership that is, again, differentiated and compelling to buyers. And so we are big believers in that market. And to get there, we have to finalize the development of the terabyte chip and finalize the development of the enzymatic synthesis that goes onto that chip. And at this point, it's going well. At the same time, we are capital limited. You mentioned that we'll spend about $24 million, which is about half of what we spent 18 months ago. And so we totally understand that capital allocation is key for us. And the data storage is at the point where speed of progress is proportional to the investment.
And so it's not going as fast as we wish it could go. But again, it's the right business decision to make sure that we can get to our North Star, which is to get to, as you see, the EBITDA break-even without raising equity. So great progress by the team since I'm moving forward. It could go faster, but we also are very conscious that the capital allocation needs to be managed and disciplined.
Understood. No, that makes sense. Sorry. When you say the progress is proportional to the speed of investment, does it imply there is no R&D risk within data storage? Like we've solved all the major science challenges?
Yeah, that's kind of what we're saying. So we're experienced in technology development. And there are early stage developments of new technology. There are some key technical hurdles that you have to overcome. And we think that those have been mostly retired. Now we're at a point where there is significant engineering work to be done, but there's no Nobel Prize on the way. There's no miracles on the way. Now it's just going through the effort. And I don't want to minimize and make it sound easy. It is hard. And we choose to do hard things because if it's hard, that means others can't do it, but we can. And so it is hard, but there's no unknown massive hurdles on the way.
Gotcha. And maybe Adam, this is more for you. I know Q4 you called out a milestone payment within biopharma. Was that expected, Adam? Or what was this down payment related to? And is that going to be recognized as revenues in fiscal 2025?
Yeah, let's talk about the XOMA deal a bit. So it's a bit in a different model. They're actually purchased from us, the future royalty payments from some of our legacy partnerships. So if you go back and look at what we do is we offer a service to biopharma companies to help identify a target. And we make sure that business is gross profit. We're not funding others' research. We're generating a gross profit on that business in itself. But occasionally, we get rights to future royalties. And so what we had in October, we announced is we sold half the rights of those future royalty payments for a fixed number of the legacy contracts we had in place for $15 million of cash. So we received the cash.
Now whatever royalty payments we get in the future from those products we've already sold, XOMA will be able to get half of that royalty. We don't expect any revenue recognition from that in 2025. We haven't forecasted any royalty payments ever into our guidance. That would always be upside. We have retained half of the royalty payments. We have now in Q1 of fiscal 2025 received the cash for that from XOMA. We are excited about it. It really does help provide that validation that, hey, there is future value in this, but it is on a longer timeframe.
Gotcha. And Emily, switching back to you, you mentioned a couple of products, right? The RNA-seq and the 500-base oligos. Talk to us about how meaningful are these product opportunities? What do they open up in terms of revenue potential for us?
Yeah. And so for us, we are very close to the customer. We're always talking to the customer about the science, the way they do it, what they want to do. And I'll take one example around antibody engineering. And we enable a lot of antibody engineering. But the way antibody engineering used to work or used to be practiced was people will study the antibody repertoire. And so they will sequence, they will either sequence immunized animal or they will sequence the immune repertoire of humans. And they will know kind of the rules of the immune repertoire composition. You have this or that amino acid and those ratios. And so typically, when people come to us, they will say, build me a library that has those ratios of antibodies at those locations. Or they'll say, we've seen those sequences, recapitulate those sequences.
Our library business is doing well. We will do that for them. Again, you give us in a file what you want and we'll build it. That's still happening. Now with AI, what we're seeing with AI is there's a shift in the mindset where instead of having kind of like a random arrangement of amino acid in the CDR1, 2, 3, what we're seeing is AI spits out specific sequences. There's no ratios of amino acid. There's no randomness about it. It's like very specific sequences. Therefore now people are coming with a list of, this is my file of, this is the exact heavy chain I want. This is the exact light chain I want.
For us, seeing that, we saw that, oh, if only we could make a direct synthesis of heavy chain or light chain, we will be able to offer a new service that nobody else has, a new product that nobody else has. So that's what happened. We challenged the R&D team to say, let's go to 500 base pairs. At the beginning, they say, we can do 400. No, that's not good enough. It needs to be 500. Eventually they got to 500. So now when the antibody engineer uses AI and they get the list of, this is the 1,000 heavy chains or 10,000 or million heavy chains I want, we're able to use our platform, which is the digital converter from the digital world to the physical world.
And we are able to give them a tube with exactly the sequences they want. And so that's an example of us being very close to the customer, being very technical as well as business-minded and being able to see that that's where the science is going and being able to provide products that enable that science. And so it's great for the customer, but also we're the only one that can do it. And so it's great for business because now we're creating more of a competitive mode. And not all of our customers are going to move there. People still want the libraries and we're still going to sell them. We're still making those faster and better. But that's kind of what we do is, again, driven by the voice of the customer and being able to build products based on the platform that they can use.
And so it's not a huge lift in terms of R&D. It's a small investment on top of the significant investment we've done to be able to offer more flavors of DNA because there's no one size fits all. None of our customers want to do the same thing. And so it's all about customizing the biology they want to do.
Gotcha. And then maybe Adam, one for you on when you do disclose total number of customers, that has grown low single digits, right? Relative to your revenue growth of high teens in the plus 20s, does the number of customer base growth, does that matter for you from a growth perspective?
It's a great question. I think if you look at NGS versus SynBio, I'd say less of a factor on the NGS side where it's really the ramp within that customer. Obviously, new customers are helpful, but given the long lead times and the cycles, they won't be short-term contributors to growth. The interesting thing on the SynBio side is we define a customer as a build-to account. So I use the example of a large academic institution as maybe one build-to account, but there could be 50 labs there. So if our account manager's in that academic institution, opening up the 51st lab or the 70th lab won't add to the customer account, but it really is an example of customer expansion. And so it is development of those accounts, but there's an element of customer expansion that isn't completely visible to that particular metric.
Understood. Hey, one on, I guess, the disclosures on related party, which you've been making, right? Just maybe talk about what this is. Why did the accountant ask you to disclose this? Does Twist have any equity stake in these businesses?
No, no, no. So we have two related parties in particular at this point in time. For the full year of fiscal 2024, we had about $12 million in revenue from them. It's up from about $6 million or $7 million in revenue in the prior year. It's really two U.S. public companies, one of whom Emily sits on the board and one of whom we have a board member who is the CFO of a publicly traded company.
CEO.
CEO of a publicly traded company. Thank you, Emily. It's a standard disclosure pretty much any company would have given the relationship. So nothing exciting there.
Gotcha. Then maybe last minute or so, one on fiscal 2025. This guidance, when I look at the annual versus Q1, another front-loaded guidance, it feels very similar to last year when it was a front-loaded guide. How much conservatism is there when you look at the fiscal 2025 guidance and based on your order book commentaries? Maybe talk about the guide assumptions.
No, I think we hit on some of these points already earlier, but it's a great question, Vijay, and I think for me, the number one thing is we want to make sure we're always seeing the sequential growth on both sides of the business, and so in any independent of any product line, and so we expect that in our forecast. We feel very good about the growth going into our fiscal Q1 calendar Q4, and to be fair, when I look at the ramps, particularly on the NGS side, I don't want to be on the wrong side of them, so the farther out we get, there is inherently an opportunity for upside if those ramps come in sooner or larger than we forecasted.
Understood. Fantastic, guys. With that, I think we're out of time. Emily, Adam, thank you for your time.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
It's my business.