Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Samik Chatterjee from J.P. Morgan. I have the pleasure of hosting Wolfspeed for the next fireside chat session. Gregg Lowe, President and CEO, Neill Reynolds, CFO, both are with us on the stage. Thank you both for taking the time to come to the conference. I'll kick it off with questions, and as we get towards the end, we'll start taking questions from the audience as well. If you have any questions, we'll definitely be interested in taking that. I can see already some questions on the online forum here, so also you have the option of putting some questions in the online portal if you need to, and we can ask it on your behalf. Gregg, I'll kick it off with a few questions.
The first one is primarily on some of the concerns we're hearing from investors, and I wanted to give you the opportunity to tackle those more upfront. Investors have been concerned about Wolfspeed's ability to ramp and fund your operations in a sustainable manner. Can you walk us through why you believe those concerns are overblown and the value Wolfspeed has to offer that is not being reflected in the current share price?
Thanks, and thanks for joining us today. Without question, we faced a number of challenges and execution challenges ramping the world's first building and ramping the world's first 200 mm silicon carbide fab. But over a year ago, we set out a number of different milestones. We highlighted a number of different milestones for that fab, whether it was utilization or revenue generated out of that fab and so forth. And for over a year, we've hit every single one of those. So we feel like we've got some momentum right now. The fab is running actually quite smoothly.
From a materials feeding that factory perspective, a little over a year ago, we had nothing coming out of Building 10, and today, we're now confident that we can actually support 25% utilization, you know, in the fab itself, so pretty amazing work from the materials side. The fab continues to get better every day. We anticipate we'll continue seeing improvements through the rest of the year. So what I would say for the little over the last year or so, you know, we've seen significantly better, you know, execution performance on the fab, and the materials itself has been stellar. I'll remind everybody that this is the first time anybody's produced a 200 mm silicon carbide MOSFETs or MOSFETs on 200 mm. The quality of our materials is stunning.
We're very, very pleased with the defectivity of the crystals themselves, and I would add that that's probably of all of the things to produce a 200 mm silicon carbide MOSFET, the hardest thing is getting the crystals right, and the team has done a superior job at that.
The upcoming funding announcements, a lot of investors are focused on, are the CHIPS Act, anything potentially from the Department of Energy. Give us your sort of view on timing of those. We've seen some companies announce CHIPS Act funding recently. How are you thinking about both magnitude and timing on both of those areas, the Department of Energy and CHIPS Act?
Well, there is a couple of different, you know, aspects of that, and I'll let you talk about 48. But from the CHIPS Act itself and the funding and the grants and the loans and so forth, we're actively engaged with the CHIPS Program Office. We have constant meetings with them, going through due diligence, you know, and so forth. We've applied, you know, obviously for it. And I think we continue to remain in the belief that we're gonna hear relatively soon on that, probably sometime before the end of our fiscal year, which is June. We anticipate that we would hear back from them and have something more to highlight for our investors on that.
Yeah, and then just from a mechanics standpoint, as you think about the CHIPS Act as it relates to us at Wolfspeed, really two parts to that. The first one is the 48D, you know, tax credit, reimbursements for semiconductor assets put into service. We feel like we're in good shape there. You know, as you think about the size of the investment that we're making, the facilities that we're making, we've already accrued, you know, north of half, you know, you know, $500 million of tax credits related to 48D. And we'll start to see a substantial amount of those start to, you know, come into, kinda come into the zone for reimbursement in that fiscal year 2020-2026 timeframe.
So our fiscal year ends in June, so, fiscal year 2026. So you put that in combination with the, the ramp down in the CapEx. So we've built a lot of facilities. We'll see these facilities kind of get built out and finished this year between the JP, the substrate facility in Siler City, North Carolina, as well as Mohawk Valley. We'll start to see just a big dip down in our CapEx as you go into 2026. At the time, we'll start to see some of these reimbursements. So you know, clearly, we'll not only see a step down in CapEx, from a growth perspective in 2025, but also 2026, 'cause we'll start to see, some of those tax credits come in.
Now, in addition, as you think about, you know, fiscal year 2025, again, our fiscal year 2024 will end here in June and, you know, start again, fiscal year 2025 in July. In that timeframe, that's, you know, exactly what Gregg's talking about. We're working with the, you know, the CHIPS Program Office. So far, the discussions have been very constructive, and, you know, we hope to finish up our, you know, work with them in the near future.
Neill, just to follow up on that, you talked about the timing being fiscal 2026 or June 2026. When you think about Mohawk ramping and the timing of these sort of funding, fundings coming through more in 2026 rather than 2025, a lot of the questions I get from investors is the ability to ramp Mohawk as you've been doing for the last-
Mm-hmm.
quarters, without or with the need of another capital raise. How should we think about whether 2025 is sort of that bridge year where you need more capital before you get to the benefit of the, some of the funding programs coming through?
Yeah, so thanks, Samik. So on that, so, we get a lot of questions on this, and I just want to be very, very clear, and we talked about this, you know, I think, very clearly as well on the earnings call. So we'll finish this fiscal year with somewhere between $2.2 billion and $2.4 billion of cash on the balance sheet. From that perspective, we're very, very well-funded, and we feel, you know, confident in that. You know, as you work into next year, we'll see a, you know, significant drop-off, you know, in the CapEx. We talked about between $1.4 billion-$1.6 billion, and that's on a gross basis, which means that that does not include really anything for, any federal incentives or grants or tax credits, from that perspective.
So that still has to be decided. That's why this, you know, discussion about, you know, you know, funding, you know, from a federal perspective, you know, is important. So we have to see what happens there first, and that will kind of inform us, as to, you know, what our next decision is from that standpoint. But if you do the math on that, I think we're in, you know, pretty good shape from how we're funded today, to fund the, fund the CapEx from that perspective. So I think that's really kind of, you know, where we're headed. We'll let that next round of what's happening from a incentives perspective kind of inform us in terms of what the next steps are, as we move forward.
Now, the other thing I'd like to add on top of that is, you know, if you look at our company, you know, you look at our margin structure and our cash structure, there's a pretty big difference between if you look at our gross margins reported today or if you start to look at what the street numbers are out there for 2025. You know, the difference between this year alone between our reported gross margins and our, what I call our cash gross margins, what if you take out the depreciation, is 20 points, so 2,000 basis points. As you move into next year, that's like, you know, roughly 2,500 basis points, so 25 points, a differential.
You know, most semiconductor companies run between five and 10 points at differential. So as we start to see a lot of this investment start to roll off, and it starts to become a bigger part of our cost structure, a lot of our cost structure becomes non-cash. So, that gives us a lot of confidence as we start to ramp these facilities that the, you know, the cash operating structure is actually quite low, and as we start to ramp up volume, we'll start to see, you know, better performance from an EBITDA perspective. That also gives us a lot of, you know, confidence in terms of how does this model look like, what does this model look like over time? How are we going to ramp it, not just for margin performance, but for cash performance?
I'd say, you know, looking at it from that perspective, you know, as we start to see volume ramping and get more, more performance out of our 200 mm substrates at Mohawk Valley, it really starts to look like a really, really nice model out in time.
Yep. Yep. Let's talk a bit more longer term about demand, because some of the concerns from investors are related to demand as well, where we've seen revisions to the global EV forecast. Just walk us through what you're seeing from customers in the EV market. How would you characterize the EV market demand outlook right now, even though some third parties have taken more restraints to their EV forecast?
Well, I'll start by saying we've actually won a pretty substantial amount of business over the last, you know, five years, and a lot of that is just in the early phase of transitioning to going into production. From an EV perspective, we've got, I think, 120 different car models from 30 different OEMs going into production over the next couple of years. So, you know, the talk about a slowing of existing EVs is not what we're in, you know, right now. We remain capacity limited. The demand for our product is higher than the capacity we have, and the adoption of silicon carbide has also been substantially higher than we originally anticipated.
You know, when I joined the company seven years ago, there was precisely one company that was committed to using silicon carbide in an inverter. And today, I can't name a company. I'm sure there is one, but I can't name a single car company that is not using silicon carbide. Maybe not in all their cars, but in some of their cars for sure. Recently had a visit with a bunch of OEMs and Tier 1s in China. Substantial adoption of silicon carbide across all the range of vehicles, whether it's, you know, quote, "entry levels" or they're more pricier ones, so, you know, pretty amazing there. And the last point I'd make is just yesterday, Sunday, 1:00 P.M., I had a customer call looking for more product this year, more product next year, more product in 2026, so increasing demand.
So we're at the early phase of the adoption. This is the most disruptive thing that's happened in the history of the automobile, so it will be the most disruptive event. There's gonna be winners and losers. There's gonna be companies that think they're gonna sell, you know, 100,000, and they're gonna sell 1,000,000. There are gonna be some that think they're gonna sell 1,000,000, and they're gonna sell 100,000. So there's gonna be a lot of turbulence on this takeoff, but I think with the substantial amount of design and activity we've had and the very high conversion from design in to design win, which is that very initial production, is very, very high.
But the final thing that I would add is we've got over 6,000 different types of customers and applications in our industrial and energy segment that we've won business with over the last couple of years. And of course, that segment is down right now, but it'll come back, and when it does, it's a pretty wide proliferation of different, you know, end products, whether it's solar related, energy storage. We've got, you know, server farms and things like that. There's tons of different applications that we've been designed into, and it will come back. The industrial business, you know, always comes back.
It's down right now, and I think we said on our earnings call, we anticipate it'll be down through the rest of this calendar year, but when it does come back, it'll be pretty nicely accretive business for us.
Gregg, I'm seeing a lot of discussion come back towards hybrids as well. What are you seeing in terms of your engagement with customers? Is there a bit more reinvestment going back into the hybrid pipeline? And how would you think about the silicon carbide opportunity in a hybrid?
We just talked to a number of different OEMs about that, and it's still, from a development standpoint, all the energy is on electric vehicles. I think they're trying to bridge a gap here, especially in the West. But I would note a couple of different things. Again, I was in China visiting a number of different OEMs. That is the world's largest market for cars. And China has, if you look at the top 10 car manufacturers, China has two of the top 10 car manufacturers, and I believe they're number eight and number 10. And they are using this transition from internal combustion engine to electric to become the dominant player worldwide for vehicle exports.
If you look at the top 10 electric vehicle manufacturers in the world, five of the top 10 are Chinese, including number one, number three, and five, I think they are. So three of the top five. Forty percent of the cars that are being sold, new registrations in China right now, are what they call a new energy vehicle, with the vast majority of those being, you know, electric. So I guess my point on all that is, the world's largest market is moving to electric, and when that happens, the rest of the world can't just ignore that. I think from a European perspective, we still see pretty good, you know, strength there. We've had really good conversations with the U.S. OEMs in terms of what their plans are and so forth.
We remain in a situation where the demand for the silicon carbide chips from us remains ahead of what our supply is. So all eyes for us are focused on ramping Mohawk Valley. We're really pleased with what's been happening over the last year or so, with the operations are substantially smoother than they were, obviously, when we initially turned on the factory. Yields continuously are getting better, cycle time is improving, utilization rates are improving, and as Neill has mentioned a couple of times, the cost basis at the chip level for a device out of Mohawk Valley is now better than what we see out of our Durham factory, and that is inclusive of all the burdensome burdens of underutilization.
So we're feeling like that decision to go to 200 mm is definitely paying off. I don't know if you want to add any color to that.
No, I think that's absolutely right. So if you look at the, you know, the capability that we have in the fab today, and I think I talked about it in the earnings call, I mean, we've seen, you know, even in the last, you know, couple of months, breakthrough performance, you know, from the operations team, from a fab perspective, in terms of both cycle times and yields, which has resulted in what Gregg said, a chip cost that is, you know, currently lower on our 200 mm. You know, if you look at one chip coming off a 200 mm substrate today, that is lower than what we have in Durham, even including the full burden of underutilization. And we expect that to accelerate.
So I think the cost bases of the company, I talked about the cash margins earlier, but also the underlying cost performance as you move to the wider diameter substrate, you know, is clearly picking up for us. So, you know, we feel like all, you know, those things are headed in the right direction. Secondly, and I'm not sure if this, you know, gets enough attention, is our materials business has been operating at a very, very high level. It represents about half of our revenue today. Now, I don't expect that to be the case over time. We'll be more device-focused, and we'll have a higher device revenue over time.
But the materials, you know, wafer business, you know, has performed at or above expectations for over the last year, continue to drive great cost out, clearly have the best quality in the industry, and we continue to see great performance there. So I think that we're starting to see the benefits, you know, of the improved operational execution, you know, as Gregg mentioned earlier, since we've kind of laid out those markers in terms of performance, you know, last year.
Related to the comments that you had about each of the geographies, and China, clearly, we've seen sort of the China market has been outperforming in terms of EV adoption. One of the questions that's come in here is, can you talk about exposure to China currently for Wolfspeed? And given the barriers to trade and the federal government's push to create more, create supply chains for key industries outside of China, is it fair to assume that the U.S. and European markets will be the key drivers for your growth over the next few years?
Yeah, well, we've got, we've got design-ins and design wins with customers all around the globe, including OEMs and Tier 1s in China, but of course, in the West and other parts of Asia as well. So, you know, I think at this point, the demand for silicon carbide in general, and not specifically, remains ahead of supply. From a Western, from a non-Chinese OEM perspective, there's a pretty strong desire to make sure that there's a supply capability coming from the West, and so obviously, that favors us. But I would say that we're pretty well balanced. I don't know if you have exact percentages or not, Neill.
Yeah, I kinda, I think, anywhere around 20%-25% of revenue on a total company basis. A lot of that's industrial energy revenue that runs, you know, through the distribution channel that runs out into Asia. We do have some, you know, some direct business as well, but I think pretty, pretty balanced portfolio in terms of, you know, how that plays out. When you look at our, our sales pipeline alone, you know, you know, the majority of that, you know, is, is outside of China. But, but we have, you know, very good relationships, I think in both industrial energy and within EVs, that kind of balances our exposure.
Let's take another question from here, and then we'll open up to the audience as well. It reads: You recently discussed silicon carbide use in AI data centers. What steps has the company taken to pursue this business opportunity and diversify the revenue base away from pure EV?
Yeah, so in general, we've got a plan to get to... I think it's about 30% industrial. We've got a pretty substantial amount of design-ins. AI data centers are definitely part of that, so we're pretty actively engaged. But it's across, as I mentioned, you know, thousands and thousands, 6,000+ , you know, different applications where we're seeing industrial moving to silicon carbide.
A lot of that began during COVID, when there was the whole supply chain issue with silicon chips, where customers couldn't get enough of what they needed, and so they put their engineers to work on, "Well, if we can't, if we can't get a silicon MOSFET, we might as well redesign, you know, the system, get better efficiency out of that system and convert to silicon carbide where the growth is." So a lot of that is now coming to fruition.
Okay. Let me open it up and see if anyone in the audience has a question?
Yeah, and for those who do have a question, I might need him to translate. There's a bad echo here. I'm deaf in one ear, so sometimes I, I won't be able to hear you.
Well, thank you for the presentation. I will try to be very clear on the question. So in silicon carbide, it's always been a foregone conclusion that it's all about the substrate. It's the largest part of the cost, very difficult to make it, and that's definitely plays in your favor. However, there's another school of thought that once the technology matures, then it really becomes more about... And it's a final product, so it becomes more. It's not just the substrate, it's also the die yield, it's also the packaging, and all the way down to the module, maybe even the software.
How do you see Wolfspeed in this paradigm, in this food chain, where you seem to be focusing on the core strength, which is really at the very top of the food chain, and the last—like, the other steps are not neglected, but somewhat lack the strength other players have?
Yeah, thanks. What I would say is a couple of things. There's no doubt about it, we are the industry envy for the substrates themselves. Our capability is very well established. We're the largest supplier of silicon carbide substrates. We've got great quality and have been in that for a long time. What a lot of people don't realize is the very first silicon carbide MOSFET was introduced by us. So we actually produced the first silicon carbide MOSFET, I don't know, it's 10 years ago, I can't-
12 years ago, yeah.
Longer than that, maybe. So we've been in the chip side of it, you know, as well, which means the substrate, the epi, and the manufacturing and the chip. The company acquired packaging, the module capability, and has had that now for, you know, 10 or 12 years, you know, as well. So I would say that we actually have pretty good elements across all of those different, you know, aspects, and that has translated into, I believe, $25 billion worth of design-ins over the last, since we've been measuring it. And, you know, record quarters, I think last quarter we had a second-highest design win performance ever. So measured by customers voting with going with for us, I would say that it's telling us that we're actually pretty good across all of those different areas.
Any other questions? Okay, let me take this one that's come in online. It reads: President Biden has recently announced tariffs to help U.S. domestic manufacturers of EVs and renewables. Do you think that the tariffs are a tailwind to Wolfspeed, given that many research analysts have been worried about Chinese silicon carbide imports?
Yeah, the... You know, I think the tariffs are obviously gonna be another, you know, disruptor. And I suppose- I assume you're, you're talking about the EV tariffs. Yeah. I think it's a quadrupling of, of-
Yeah.
... the tariffs. And I think right now from a U.S. perspective, it has no impact, 'cause the number of Chinese companies selling cars here is essentially zero. And I don't believe it impacts Chinese brands that are produced in other places, so at least I don't think it's going after that. So companies like Volvo that are owned by Geely, I don't think are impacted by that. And I think what I would say is that during COVID, with the supply chain issues that happened, and now with this, certainly the Western companies and the non-Chinese companies are very, very interested in having a supply chain that can be a reliable, you know, supply chain. And so I think that has incrementally been positive for us.
You know, I think most likely, the Europeans are probably considering tariffs as well on electric vehicles. I think they have substantially fewer degrees of freedom because of the amount of business they do in the automotive segment in China. They're, they can't kind of do a... It wouldn't be a one-way, you know, situation for them, so I think it's gonna be a lot more difficult for them to handle that.
Going back to just automotive in general and some of the design wins that you've disclosed to date, some of them have been with OEMs that some of your peer companies have also counted as OEM customer wins. Just help us think about how the OEMs are mapping out the supply landscape, where are you seeing design wins? Is it with the same OEMs and different models, or are these sort of dual supply, multi-source supply for the same models? How, how is the supply chain being architected right now?
Yeah, generally speaking, from an automotive perspective, and I've been associated with it basically my whole career, the car manufacturers basically do the same thing. They go with a lead supplier, the initial supplier, and that supplier will get something like 70% of the business. They essentially get all of the business in the beginning, by the way, 'cause they don't wanna split their teams into qualifying, you know, different things. So you get all of the business in the beginning, and then it's just very well understood that there's going to be a second supplier that comes on for the other 30% of that. Generally speaking, that's a new model, a new system, a new something.
They don't want to re-qualify somebody for the same vehicle line or the same platform, generally speaking, and I think that's what we're seeing play out as well. So there's nothing, there's nothing new, there's nothing, you know, different. The only wrinkle, I would say, is that the demand for silicon carbide is higher than the supply, so they're also very much paying attention to the supply chain. And as one, you know, OEM told me a while ago, you know, in the silicon carbide world, you know, all roads lead back to Wolfspeed, 'cause we've got such a substantial position in the substrate itself.
Any questions in the audience? Okay, let's try to knock a few of these online questions before we end. The first one is: When do you think you'll be producing at the $2 billion capacity of Mohawk Valley? And will the capacity be available before that level of design wins are in hand, or do you already have design wins to support that and just need the capacity to catch up?
So from a Mohawk Valley perspective, you know, I think the question was about the amount of capacity that comes online. What we've said previously, that Mohawk Valley is capable of doing, you know, approximately $2 billion in annual revenue from a device perspective. With about 25% of the substrates being fed out of our Building 10 campus on Durham, and then the remainder of those substrates being fed out of the JP in Siler City, so our new substrate facility that's currently finalizing construction this year. In terms of a timeline, you know, we haven't gone out that far, but what I would say is the timeline that we have laid out is, as we look at the utilization levels of Mohawk Valley, we anticipate getting to the 20% this year.
Like we said, the fab is performing well. We look at 25% as you get out to the end of this year. We've actually updated that to 25% being able to be supplied from a substrate perspective out of our Durham campus by December, and that all, you know, remains on track. And then, as you get out to the end of, as you get out beyond that, additional substrates to, to drive to higher levels of utilization, you know, will have to come out of the JP in Siler City. And we anticipate that happening, you know, sometime in the first half of next year, ramping up, with revenue expectations from Mohawk Valley being in the second half of calendar year 2025.
What that takes us to at that point in time is a time when you start to see the substrates coming out of the JP in Siler City, feeding Mohawk Valley. And what that'll allow us to do is accelerate faster. We'll be able to accelerate Mohawk Valley at a faster level, and it'll all depend on, you know, how things look from a supply and demand matching perspective out in that timeframe. From a design-in perspective, we've seen very, very strong design-ins, you know, over $20 billion, I think $22 billion now over the last several years of design-ins. Those are translating into design wins. We're seeing those ramps right now, you know, with customers in a pretty big way.
So our anticipation is, as we get out into 2026, we'll start to see an acceleration of the capability, and the gating item at that point in time will just be, you know, driving, you know, capacity through that new footprint. As I said before, and we talked about earlier, you know, that cost, capability, the quality that's coming out of out of Mohawk Valley, you know, right now on these 200 millimeter substrates, looks pretty, pretty terrific. So what we'll have is a lot more learning cycles between now and then. So it'll give us the confidence to accelerate, and it'll just depend on how fast we can accelerate, out into 2026 and beyond, to get to full capacity at that timeframe. But clearly, we have line of sight, to the supply chain that will enable that.
Good. Another question is, does the Durham fab have positive gross margin? Will you eventually shutter that fab as it has never met the gross margin targets you've set?
You know, right now, we're the focus of the company is really ramping the Mohawk Valley facility. That includes Building 10, that includes the JP, which by the way, is on target, on track right now to the milestones that we've set out, and really ramping the fab in New York and Mohawk Valley. That includes increasing utilization, decreasing cycle time, increasing yield out of the fab, and so forth. So that's, that's really the primary focus we have right now, and, you know, we'll... You know, as it relates to Durham, you know, it's a stable fab right now. It generally was more industrial, and obviously, there's a lighter load on that right now, but the focus of the company is on Mohawk Valley.
So, while we're getting the mic over, let me just give you the standard question we give/get every conference. Competitive position of your manufacturing, compare where you are to onsemi and any other competitor, how far or behind do you think you are?
Well, we're producing 200 mm, we're producing MOSFETs on 200 mm substrates in production and in volume. We've had a great record of qualifications on that. Basically, every part we've tried to qualify has qualified, and almost all of them qualified on their first attempt for qualification. That is remarkable, by the way, for a new substrate, a new epi system, you know, a new fab, you know, it's really remarkable that that, that has happened, so we feel very good about that. You know, in terms of where other people are, I don't sit in their program reviews, so it's hard to exactly say.
But my sense is, just based on the material agreements that we sign and, you know, extended agreements that are all for 150, you know, 150 seems to be, what most people are focused on, at least for the next couple of years. And again, when we announce supply agreements on 150 millimeter, these aren't one year type things. Kinda think of them as roughly half a decade. So these are agreements where people are going to be buying and are committed to buying 150 mm for quite some time. So I'd say we're probably pretty far ahead on 200 mm. How exactly far? I honestly don't 100% know, but, we've certainly been pushing this pretty hard.
So you mentioned quite a few times that you have an outstanding performance for your substrate, and which is unmatched by the rest of the industry. But I wonder why some very large players, like Infineon, they keep qualifying other substrate suppliers, including Chinese. So is it that for the type of applications they are using those substrates, the quality is not really that detrimental for the quality of the final product, or they are just willing to compromise on the quality of the final product because of the cost, performance issue and whatnot?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. A couple of things. So, I was in China, visited a number of customers and asked them about, you know, the substrates and so forth. And, based on, you know, the majority of the feedback, not total a hundred percent, but the majority of the feedback I got, there is not a strong conviction that it's sort of right around the corner. And the... From my understanding, the vast majority of substrates from Chinese suppliers are utilized in the diode market, the Schottky diode market. And a Schottky diode quality wafer is a scrap wafer from a MOSFET perspective. You can't use it.
Using a lower quality wafer in a MOSFET is gonna crash your yield in the wafer fab itself, and so, you know, that, that's not gonna be good, you know, or it'll create a reliability problem out in the field. There are defects that will pass a wafer fab test but will fail, you know, in the field, and that's no good either. And I think, you know, we've signed a number of extensions on supply agreements. We signed the, what I believe to be the largest capacity deposit in the history of semiconductors with Renesas. We just signed extensions with both ROHM and with Infineon.
I guess what I would say is, without knowing, you know, for sure, there's no way these agreements are being signed if there's strong conviction that somebody's coming around the corner with, you know, high-quality wafers that can be used in MOSFET production. You know, especially a $2 billion capacity reservation deposit, a 5-year extension, you know, it just doesn't make sense that that would happen.
Great. We are almost up on time, so I'll wrap it up there. Thank you to the audience, and thank you, Gregg and Neill, for coming to the conference as well.
Thank you.