Earnings Call: Q3 2022

Nov 7, 2022

Good afternoon. This is the conference call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the conference call of the BPER Banca Group's consolidated nine-month results. As a reminder, all participants are in listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Should anyone need assistance during the conference call, they may signal an operator by pressing star and zero on the telephone. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Pierluigi Montani, CEO of the BPER Banca Group. Please go ahead, sir. Thank you. Good evening, everybody. Thank you for joining. I'm here with my colleagues, in particular with Gian Luca Santi, Deputy General Manager, the CFO, the manager responsible for the financial information, Fabio Pelati for investor relations. We're very happy with the results of this first quarter. The nine-month results are extremely positive. They confirmed the growth trends observed year-to-date, combined with increasing core business profitability, a further improvement in credit quality, and a solid capital and liquidity position. As far as profitability is concerned, the net profit for the nine-month period amounts to EUR 1,466,000,000 and includes EUR 1,041,000 worth of non-recurring items, primarily accounted for by the goodwill recognized following the acquisition of Carige. Net of this amount, net profit totals EUR 425 million. Net recurring profit for the third quarter amounts to EUR 108.6 million after payment of EUR 123.3 million in Italian banking system contributions, reflective of robust profitability, which from this quarter also includes the contribution of Banca Carige. As far as Banca Carige is concerned, I'm pleased to say that the bank is at breakeven. As far as this quarter is concerned, in terms of volumes are on a strong year-to-date uptrend on the back of both Banca Carige's onboarding since the second quarter and the positive commercial input that we have already had an opportunity to observe in the previous quarters. Net of Carige's contribution, direct funding was up 1%. Net loans to customers were up 1.7%. Again, in lending, support to households and businesses continued with new loans in the first nine months of 2022 totaling EUR 12.6 billion. In the previous quarter, I remember we hinted at this figure, which was close to this level. As far as credit quality is concerned, we have recorded further improvement with gross NPE ratio down to 4.2%. Last time we communicated 4.3% in the previous quarter. The net NPE ratio is now at 1.7%. It was 1.8% in the previous quarter. All of this is combined with further improvements in the coverage ratios. The non-performing loans are at 61.7% versus 61.3%, and bad loans were at 75.6%, and now they are up, and UTPs were at 46%, and they have improved, and bonis, so the performing loans are at 0.68%. The bank's capital strength is confirmed with a pro forma fully phased CET1 ratio that including the full benefit deriving from Carige's DTA settles at 13.2%. This is the overall overview of the quarter. I will give the floor to Gian Luca Santi and the CFO, so that will illustrate the details. I would say that the CEO has already commented the overall situation. We will go into the specific details just for some qualitative comments. As you can see in slide six, the path has already been developed for the acquisition of Banca Carige in the third quarter of 2022. We completed the mandatory tender offer, and there was a subsequent sellout process with BPER reaching 96.1% stake in Banca Carige. In the fourth quarter, just last weekend, there was the approval of the acquisition of Banca Carige and Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena into BPER, and IT migration is scheduled for the 28th of November 2022. Carige really brought about 800,000 customers to the bank and EUR 10.2 billion in AUM and life bancassurance and EUR 10.3 billion in net loans and EUR 14.3 billion in direct deposits. Moving on to an analysis of the direct and indirect deposits of the group, growth was by 15.1% year-to-date. If we look at the entire period, the growth was outstanding, also in the last quarter, it was important because it happens through the retail customers. There's a good positioning and a good growth, which is a very good indicator for banks in this very moment. In indirect deposits, a further comment I would like to make is that the market effect since the beginning of the year had an impact of 14%. The impact of this will reverberate and translate into EUR 20 billion, does reverberate and translate into EUR 20 billion as at September 2022. It's important to say that assets under management has been confirmed as a positive contributor for the three quarters, and in this quarter, having good assets under management. We've got 5 to 1, I think, as a ratio between direct and indirect. With Carige and the former UBI customers, we've been able to contribute to this sector significantly. Looking at loans, net customer loans, the growth year-to-date is 14.8%, 1.7% change on a like-for-like basis. Out of the EUR 90 billion net customer loans, we've got EUR 8.3 billion that are state guaranteed. What is important is that new loans have reached EUR 12.6 billion, and once again, this bears witness to the fact that the customer base we have achieved makes it possible for us to develop a strong commercial effort, and the expectations for 2023 are that the situation may be reversed so that the short term will go up because inflation and the price increase will, especially for businesses, lead to an increasing need for liquidity, the trend may be reversed in the future. As far as asset quality is concerned, strong asset quality is confirmed in Q3 2022, with declining NPE ratios and coverage further strengthened. We're now at 4.2% in the NPE ratio. NPE coverage has been further strengthened, bad loans at 77.9%, and UTPs at 47.3%. There's the consolidation of Carige that has brought in about EUR 150 million in net loans, which means that if we had to analyze one, we only had to analyze BPER, we would be at 64% in terms of NPE coverage. 0.68% of performing loans coverage is very important, with 4.3% for Stage 2 loans. We are among the best in class, I would say that with the disposals by the end of the year, we should be able to be positioning among the best in the Italian banking system. As far as the financial assets portfolio is concerned, we can say, as you can see in the slide, that our portfolio is made up of 36% is Italian government bonds out of the total. We had braced for, and we were ready in the past to actually also acquire Banca Carige's government bonds. From 8.6, we are now at 10.6, but with BPER Banca that had gone down to 8.3, precisely to prepare for this input from Banca Carige. As you can see, the duration is 2.1 years in total bonds and 2.2 years, so a little bit higher for Italian government bonds. We have tried to give you an overview of the quarters of both BPER Banca and Banca Carige by obviously also calculating pro forma and taking away all of the one-off or non-recurring items. I would say that by comparing solo BPER Banca on a standalone basis, and you may remember that last time we had not yet consolidated the profit and loss. Now the variation is only in terms of personnel costs because of a twofold effect, seasonality effect and holidays, basically, on the one hand. Also we're starting to perceive also the reduction in the headcount. So 533 people have gone away. In the nine-month periods, we are at 600 exits, and we will start to benefit from these reductions in the headcount over the next quarters, too. Compared to the second quarter, there's a difference also in contributions to the Italian banking system funds, EUR 123 million just for BPER Banca, EUR 102 million, that I would say is one of the most important differences compared with the second quarter that you can see in slide 13. As far as cost of credit is concerned, we will see the details thereof, but annualized cost of credit is 48 basis points. As far as net interest income is concerned, once again, the dynamics here for the quarter between the first quarter and the second quarter, there is a difference. In the first part, we only have BPER Banca, 33.8% growth in commercial, and it's to be split between market effects and volumes effects. The institutional funding, we have issued subordinated loans, and so the cost of funding is a little bit higher and EUR 22 million reduction in the TLTRO. From 39 in the second quarter, we are now at 19. So there's a benefit from the TLTRO still. You can see Banca Carige as a whole, because some detailed information are being structured over these weeks. From next quarter, we will give you more details. But the commercial spread, as you can see, goes from 193 to 205 quarter-on-quarter. As far as net commission income, slide 15, is concerned, of course there's been a drop in what comes from assets under management and in direct deposits. There has been a growth in the traditional banking activities, and we have seen that particularly in transactional banking, POS, and cards. Also there has been an increase. There's been an increase also in corporate investment banking. The loan dynamics also drags along an important fees and commissions component. We're very much satisfied with the traditional banking activity in terms of net fees and commissions. As far as finance is concerned, and trading income, the only difference between the two quarters lies with Carige because there were some capital gains there on the disposals of some securities. Carige also benefited from some short positions on interest rates. As far as operating costs are concerned, I would say that for operating costs, you can see that over the 9 months, we're calculating about EUR 47 million in one-off costs that are broken down equally between cost adjustments to the solidarity fund of 2021, and EUR 24 million instead are one-off costs deriving from the acquisition of Carige. We're benefiting also in terms of personnel costs from a reduction of about 590 people, with 530 people from the 1st of July. As far as the cost of credit is concerned, we can confirm at BPER's level that there are the same loan loss provisions as we had in the second quarter. The annualized cost of credit is 48 basis points, but we should consider that we also increased the coverage ratio for non-performing loans. This effect is very important and probably represents also and accounts for 50% of the loan loss provisions that in terms of basis points we are in fact taking. As far as capital is concerned, our slide is self-evident. You can see that the deductions are OCI fair value reserves, and then there are deductions on DTAs, because after assessing capital thresholds, they are taken back, and we will reabsorb them by the early months of 2023. You can see the risk-weighted assets. If we pro forma calculate the DTAs of Carige, we will get to 13.2% in terms of pro forma 15 CET1. That is broadly in line with our expectations. Once again, I would reassert the final conclusions. Our operating profitability is underpinned by the top-line growth and traditional banking revenues with, again, a net fee and commission income that exceeds net interest income in this course. The resilient asset quality should be highlighted with higher coverage and a solid capital that gives us a good position of solidity and financial strength. My presentation is over, and I would open the questions and answer session. Yes. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue, please press star and two. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from the Italian conference by Mr. Peruch from Mediobanca. Please go ahead, sir. Please go ahead, ladies and madam. I've got 3 questions. First, could you share with us the dividend per share that you have included in your common equity for the 9 months of the year, for this 9-month period, and how much should we expect for the next quarter? You had indicated EUR 450 million in net interest income, and now can you update your guidance for the quarter? My last question is about fees and commissions. Your strategy in terms of asset management and insurance was profitable so far, and Q3 exceeded the limits of your guidance. Looking at the next year, do you expect commissions will continue to increase? Very quickly, as far as the dividend's concerned, for the nine-month period, EUR 0.075 was set aside, and as far as the expectation for the end of the year is concerned, we will try to keep with what we had promised, we will see how things develop towards the end of the year. As far as net interest income is concerned and the guidance for the next quarter, for sure, we did very well. Probably, I'm saying something in advance, but I think that in terms of We will go around EUR 1 billion divided between net interest income and net commission income on a 50/50 basis. You know that 2023, so next year, is going to be a very special year. No one has understood yet what we can expect, we have carried out our analysis, what I'm giving as a guidance is what we're thinking now, we would be more accurate in our guidance over the next weeks and months. Thank you. Can you give us guidance also about the net interest income for 2024, probably? The analysis is being carried out. We can confirm the data, we may expect a little bit better results. Next question is from Domenico Santoro from HSBC. Please, sir, go ahead. Yes, I've got four questions. First of all, the contribution of the TLTRO, probably there was some inaccuracy. I understood it was 39% growth in the second quarter, and now it's 19%. I think I had higher numbers, I would like to understand better what the contribution is going to be for the fourth quarter, both in growth and net terms. Net interest income. I can understand that the Q4 is going to be better than Q3, and we can infer that it's going to be much higher, can you give us guidance for next year, 2023? EUR 1.95 billion probably will be achieved next year, I would like to have better guidance. Systemic costs also, we need guidance about that. Would like to know more about any possible decisions about non-performing loans being sold, or if the model is going to be revised, and if so, to what extent. Let me see if I remember all of your questions, the systemic costs for next year are about EUR 150 million. The guidance I gave before was an overall guidance of EUR 1 billion on a 50/50 basis, the contribution of the fourth quarter, as I was saying before, is in line with this quarter. We expect something better, we will be clearer in the short term. As far as the disposals are concerned, by the end of this year, we had talked about disposals for about EUR 1.5 billion in NPLs. In the business plan, we had also included disposals of UTPs, with the objective being the disposal of bad loans by the end of this year. What we expect is that we will go towards a disposal of EUR 1 billion, EUR 1,100 billion, and if possible, a little bit higher. We do not expect any significant impact. As far as the TLTRO is concerned, I would give the floor to Gian Luca Santi, the Deputy General Manager. In the annexes, you have a slide on net interest income that shows how net interest income evolved over the quarter, EUR 30 million in the 1st, EUR 27 million in the 2nd, and EUR 6 million in the 3rd quarter. Of course, by including Genova, it will be EUR 30 million for the quarter. You have the development, all of the breakdown in a slide. If I can ask for clarification that is important for next year, can you give us guidance about the revenues? You said EUR 1 billion, I think. Yes. I must be cautious and conservative because we're speaking about a very special year. EUR 1 billion, in terms of operating profits, with a subdivision into net interest income and fee and commission income of 50% each, roughly, there might be differences, but this is what we are thinking of at the moment. I want to be conservative and prudent, because this year is in progress, and next year is fraught with uncertainty, so we need to be cautious. Next question comes from Marco Nicolai from Jefferies. Yes, good evening, and thank you for the presentation, and I congratulate you on your results. I've got a couple of questions. If you can give us an update on the litigation with Malacalza Investimenti and any possible reverberations in case there are any. In terms of one-off costs connected with the acquisition, should we expect any further costs? I would think so for the 4th quarter. Can you give us color on that? Can you give us some updates on synergies, if you have an update on the synergies that you expect from Carige? We do not expect any further impacts on costs as compared to what we gave you as a guidance. The integration costs are about EUR 70 million as a whole that we have already taken. Actually, EUR 30 million has already been taken. We hope that by the end of the year, considering that the situation has been a little bit better than we expected, or are in line with what we expected, we hope we'll be able to improve the situation even further and not worsen it. If your question was whether we see any negative surprises, the answer is we do not see any surprises. Litigation with Malacalza, we have already spoken about this. We are quite confident about the result of litigation. I have no further update to give you as compared to what the market already knows, I wouldn't add anything. In terms of costs associated to the M&As, it's only EUR 30 million or EUR 35 million. Now, this is what we have already taken, what we have already incurred. The overall cost is EUR 70 million, and we hope we can do better. At the same time, I feel quite confident that it will be better because this transaction that was for sure very complex as far as we're concerned, and also for the entire organization, because Carige had some problems that were dragging along the last summer. We had to work intensively, everything eventually worked out well, we're quite confident about the next future and the future in general, because in the meantime, we have seen that the operating income was positive and also the bottom line there is at breakeven, which makes us confident about the future. The synergies we gave you can be confirmed, then we will be more detailed in the next quarter. Next question is from Andrea Lisi from Equita. Mr. Lisi, you can go ahead. I'm sorry, I was on mute. Thank you for taking my questions. My first question is about the balance sheet. I have seen that there has been an increase, a strong increase in cash and cash equivalents, and I would like to understand how this interacts with the TLTRO, if there is any correlation. In terms of guidance for the net interest income for the next year, indicatively, you spoke about EUR 500 million per quarter. I would like to understand what rates assumption is it based on, is your estimate based on considering today's interest rates, what sensitivity do you have in terms of EUR increases? What we're based on today is a situation. We cannot base ourselves on any further situations. This is what we're based on, and I can confirm the trend that you gave. If the CFO is taking the question about sensitivity, yes, the sensitivity for a further increase by 100 basis points in the interest rate is 5% of net interest income. Next question is from Christian Carrese from Intermonte. Yes, good evening. Thank you for taking my questions. I would like to understand for the fourth quarter, what the one-off items are, if there are any. You were recalling the cost of personnel, for instance. I would like to understand the Nexi situation, then some one-offs that you may give us color on for the fourth quarter, then the strategy. As far as strategy is concerned, in the newspapers, we read about this third banking poll, are you interested in increasing your footprint, for instance, with the Banca Monte dei Paschi has been capitalized now, could it fit within your plans? As far as the one-off items are concerned, apart from what we have already communicated, we cannot see any, we hope there's none. I have no further elements to add to what I have already talked about, we may expect some positive elements for the next quarter. Gian Luca talked about the exit of about 600 people. I think it was 580 people. 600 people left in the first half of the year, there's going to be 400 people leaving in the second part of the year. For next year, we will start to have a benefit from the headcount reduction, we will have the upside next year. As far as the HR is concerned, we are defining a second maneuver that we in fact set out in the business plan for about 200 people. There's an HR maneuver that is going on. When we talked about the sale of branches two days ago, the sale of these branches two days ago will also involve 270 people leaving, which means that there is a quite substantial headcount maneuver going on that we hope will be completed soon. That many actions have been implemented. There are two or three that will be completed by the end of the year, including Nexi, that you were hinting at. We are confident that this will be completed. With Nexi, we hope it will be completed. The numbers have already been communicated in the fourth quarter. The deal should be closed, but we will give you communication of everything when we can confirm what we have said. As far as the third banking pillar strategy is concerned, I'm repeating myself over these days, and I do not know what to add, and it's not something personal against you or with you. Over the last 15 months, the bank has doubled its position, or actually it has trebled its complexity because by putting together the UBI deal with 620 branches and 5,600 people, Carige that is bringing on board 3,300 people. We are integrating, we have partly integrated, and we are still integrating 8,400 people. We're still yesterday's bank, so we cannot look too far ahead at what is happening. We really have to have a good focus on what we have, and our priority today is that of completing everything we have started and consolidating the bank that we have formed. Now the bank has got 5 million customers. We need to arrange everything in the best way, also in terms of branch network, because we're adding the branch network of Carige now. That is bringing along a number of customers that, as you know, have experienced, I wouldn't say an abandonment, because that would be offensive against Carige. Of course, they did what we could. The customers' relationships have been retained. Of course, there were problems with the loss in volumes, and we need to fix that. We need to integrate the people that are part of the head office. 800 people are going to be integrated in the head office. We have already talked with everybody. We basically have the plans for redeploy the people, and we are confident that good work will be made in the next quarter, and most of the things will be settled, but still, the work is intense, and we wouldn't consider another transaction now. Once we're done with what we're doing, we will What about the IT migration? I couldn't understand the question very well, Mr. Montani says. I was saying, what about the partnerships? Well, among the things that we need to arrange in the best way with Carige, we also have the partnerships that they had. We're confident that they will be completed by the end of the year. As far as the IT migration is concerned, the migration is well ahead, you may know that since last year with the acquisition of UBI, we also have acquired a lot of people from UBI, including the manager of IT, Mr. Sonnino. We have acquired basically 140 people to strengthen the IT in the meantime, including also the partnerships. On top of that, there are also the partnerships with the IT sector that is being repositioned, is being insourced. This is bringing about the inclusion of 103, 104 people that we need to strengthen the IT department. We have not identified any problems so far. We are perfectly convinced that the entire integration of the IT will be completed by the end of this month successfully, the tests we have carried out so far proved and yielded very well. This bears witness to the fact that also in terms of IT, we have made very good steps forward. Obviously, we have not yet completed the process, so we will work intensely to complete the integration by the 27th and 28th of November over the conversion weekend. I'm sure you will be able to verify the positive results of this integration with Carige. Thank you very much. Next question is from Adele Palomar from UBS. Yes. Good evening. I've got two requests for clarification on the guidance and some questions. As far as the costs are concerned, I think I remember that there were some one-off costs deriving from the personnel maneuver of about EUR 140 million-EUR 150 million. Has this already been taken, or will it be taken in the first quarter? Well, you remember perfectly, because the HR maneuver was for 600 people with an estimated cost of EUR 150 million. This cost will have to be taken, I'm confident that by the end of the year, we will complete the HR maneuver. There are many things to do, this was included among our objectives, by the end of the year, we will complete it. If it's not by the end of the year, it will be by early next year, we're working on it. Yes. Yes. Good. I would also like to know if you are thinking of repaying the tranche of the TLTRO in advance. Let us consider that in due time. What I can say is that we are in a condition to repay that would be possible, we have not yet thought about it. There's no difficulty in repaying it. We will consider the opportunity and convenience of doing that in due time. I would like to have guidance on what you expect for the cost of risk in 2023 and some clarification about the NII 5%, or is it annualized third quarter? Then the moving parts of capital that you expect. If you expect any moving parts for the 2023 and 2024. Just a minute, because you made a lot of questions. The mic was off. I'm sorry. As far as the year is concerned, we have communicated that the cost of risk is 48 basis points, we expect it will be maintained between 48 and 50 basis points. We may get to 60 or 70 basis points in case of an adverse scenario, we will see what happens then. I always stress one point, that unlike other banks, we were always conservative. We've always been conservative. We've always been judged as having a higher cost of risk than others. I would underline this once again, our cost of credit, that the cost of credit we always gave, if we had looked at the models, we would have been able to declare a lower cost of risk. We wanted to be conservative and prudent because our objective was that of reducing the gross and net NPE ratio, and we would have obtained that through a substantial sale of the portfolio. We always took robust provisions in order not to make sales by the end of the year with a strong impact on the profit and loss. We are in a position now to say that we should be able to close a big deal in NPE by the end of the year for EUR 1 billion, and a marginal impact is being considered. The same type of approach will continue in the past. We were prudent in the past, I'm sorry, and we'll keep being prudent in the future. For a number of reasons now we expect 20% for next year. It could also be 25%. 5% probably. There was a part missing. 5% is the tax rate based on 2022, about EUR 100 million in terms of numbers. What about the moving parts of capital in the fourth quarter and in 2023? Another question is about overlays. There are no impacts. For overlays, you were asking, it's about EUR 90 million. I hope I gave you all of the answers. Next question from Andrea Vercellone. I'm asking for clarification about core revenues for next year. You said EUR 1 billion? Quarterly. My question is, based on what perimeter? Today's perimeter, or is this perimeter net of the merchant acquiring, leasing, and I'm sorry. On this perimeter, of course. I may have understood wrongly. Of course, the perimeter excluding the acquiring, merchant acquiring, yes. Today's perimeter, net of fees from the acquiring business. Yes, the merchant business is going to be closed by the end of the year, and so it will have to be excluded from the perimeter. We cannot include it in the perimeter, otherwise there would be something wrong in the calculation, of course. What about the other deconsolidations that you are planning? You have not yet excluded them from the guidance, or have you? This is my question. I was thinking loud while you were making the question, the deconsolidation we're speaking about, the only one left would be the leasing. And the branches to Desio. No, they have already been considered. Those things have already been considered because as far as the branches being sold to Desio, if the deal is closed next year, of course, they will be considered as out of the scope. What has been announced, yes, everything that has been announced is out, because if it was not the case, then we would have cheated. Of course, everything that has been announced is not in the guidance because we know that they will not generate any more benefits or revenues. It's important for us to know what you have excluded. Yes, you're right. You made a good question, but I'm not speaking for myself, but the history of this bank has always been very prudent, it's part of its style not to declare something it has not considered. The second clarification is about NPEs. I remember EUR 2.5 billion. Yes, you're right. We always spoke about EUR 2.5 billion because we were considering bad loans and UTPs, and the sale of the platform. I probably was too quick when I said this, but we're dividing the platform and the UTPs that will go next year. For this year, we're just talking about bad loans. Bad loans will be sold by an amount of up to EUR 1.5 billion. Probably it will not be able for us to get to EUR 1.5 by the end of the year, but we will sell EUR 1.1 billion, EUR 1.2 billion by the end of this year. It's split into two moments because we wouldn't not been able to do everything by the end of this year. If you look at the extent of the deals we're proposing, they're very substantial, and there's a problem of timing. Next question is from the conference in English, from Hugo Cruz by KBW. Hi. Thank you for the time. I think last quarter you gave some guidance for the run rate on operating costs. From memory, I think you gave a guide for EUR 640 million-EUR 650 million a quarter. I was wondering if you can update that guidance as well. Thank you. Yes. We can give you the guidance by quarter, it's EUR 650. I'm sorry, EUR 650 million each quarter. You said. EUR 2.6 billion overall, EUR 650 million each quarter. Thank you very much. [Foreign language] Grazie. Next question from the Italian conference is from Mediobanca, Noemi Peruch. Good evening again, and thank you for taking my questions. I've got two follow-up questions and one question. Our first follow-up question is about the NII guidance. We would like to know how many MREL issuance you have foreseen, and what do you consider as an adverse scenario for the cost of risk of 60-70, in terms also of employment, environment, and everything. And then the leasing and FIFA disposals. For the MREL part, Roberto, the CFO, will answer. In terms of adverse scenarios, we have not focused on something extraordinary in one sense or the other. What I wanted to say is that if the scenario remains flat and stable based on what we're seeing today, evidently we can be confident that the cost of credit will be much more limited or in line with what we have. If there's a retrogression of something that we cannot expect now, because there are no specific forecasts, you can include in that retrogression or emergency, whatever you want, like the cost of energy, inflation, or employment problems. If we were to consider a worsening scenario, more negative scenario than what we're seeing today, we would consider a cost of risk of 60 to 70 basis points, but we have no visibility now. I think that nobody has a clear idea of what will happen next year. Just personally speaking, personally speaking, I do not know if I'm right or wrong, I'm probably more frightened and concerned about 2024 than 2023. I'm confining myself to saying this. We will have to see what happens. Hi, Noemi. The CFO speaking. As far as the MREL is concerned, we've got an issuance of EUR 400 million, and we have considered EUR 500 million-EUR 600 million in senior debt to be issued next year, and I think that this will complete our MREL issuances for 2023. Mr. Montani, there are no further questions registered at the moment. Good. Thank you for joining the conference call, and for any further questions or requests for clarification that you may require, my colleagues are here. We are here for further clarifications or answers to questions that you may not have been able to make or that you will want to make in the future. Thank you for your attention. Have a good evening.