Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to EPL Limited Q3 FY 2025 earnings conference call hosted by Systematix Shares and Stocks. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded, and I'll hand the conference over to Mr. Pratik Tholiya from Systematix Shares and Stocks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thanks, Neeraj. Good evening, everyone. On behalf of Systematix, I would like to welcome all the participants who have logged into this conference call of EPL Limited, to discuss the third quarter and nine-month ending FY 2025. Today we have with us from the management team, Mr. Anand Kripalu, MD and Global CEO, Mr. Deepak Goyal, CFO, Mr. Srihari Rao, President, AMESA Region, and Mr. Omkar Gangurde, Head Legal, Company Secretary, and Compliance Officer. At the outset, I would like to thank the management for giving us the opportunity to host this conference call. I would like to now invite Mr. Anand Kripalu to begin the proceedings, with his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you very much, Pratik, and hello, everybody. And thank you for joining us for EPL's Q3 FY 2025 earnings call. We have delivered another solid quarter, culminating in 10 consecutive quarters of margin expansion, coupled with continuous double-digit EBITDA growth. The strong turnaround in Europe and Americas is now evident, and our BNC business, in line with our strategy, has delivered double-digit growth. Importantly, PAT grew very strongly, and ROC has improved even further. EBITDA grew by 12.4%. EBITDA margin reached 20.3%, delivering an improvement of 152 basis points year-on-year. Our adjusted PAT, excluding base year one-offs, grew by a solid 34% versus the prior year. We delivered an ROC of 16.9%, which expanded by 321 basis points year-on-year. Revenue growth was a modest 4%, driven by strong performance in Europe and Americas, partially offset by AMESA and EAP.
Specifically, Europe and Americas grew by 8.7% and 7.3%, respectively, reflecting the efficacy of our growth strategies and the strong pipeline in the regions. AMESA grew by 1%, impacted by demand slowdown in India and currency devaluation impact in Egypt. In India, we believe the market softness is short-term in nature. EAP revenue declined by 1% due to the continued effect of macros in China. However, we continue to make strong overall progress in the BNC sector, where we experienced double-digit growth year-over-year at 10.3%. The non-Oral Care segment now accounts for 48.7% of our total revenue. In summary, the growth in EBITDA and PAT, coupled with strong cash flow generation, helped reduce our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio to 0.76, and the ROC further improved to 16.9. Sustainability remains at the heart of our strategy, and we are pleased with the progress we've made so far.
Today, 31% of our portfolio consists of sustainable tubes, and we are actively collaborating with customers to provide innovative solutions that align with their own sustainability goals. Our commitment to responsible practices has been consistently recognized, including a green rating for the third consecutive year under the Ellen MacArthur Foundation's Plastic Circular Economy goals. Innovation continues to be a key driver of our success, as demonstrated by a recent recognition with two prestigious IFCA awards for our advanced tube solutions. Looking ahead, we remain focused on achieving EcoVadis Platinum, further strengthening our position as a leader in sustainability and innovation. As we look to the future, we believe we are well-positioned to continue our journey towards delivering double-digit revenue growth and strong operating margins. Specifically, in addition to our ongoing strategic focus areas, we are taking further initiatives to mitigate the soft macro impact in India and China.
In relation to this, I'm very happy to share that we have approved a greenfield expansion in Thailand. Southeast Asia is a very promising tubes market, and we cater to parts of this market today through exports from China. We know this market well and already have an established customer base, along with a strong pipeline. Our significant success in Brazil gives us huge confidence to replicate that experience. We have committed an initial investment for this beauty and cosmetics-focused facility, replete with tubing, printing, etc., and it will start production in H2 FY 2026. Additionally, we have aggressively started capturing export opportunities from India and China. We have added new business development headcount for exports and have started building new pipelines there. Further, we have made positive progress on a few larger accounts in India, which hold significant potential and should materialize in the next few quarters.
At the same time, we are pursuing our other priorities even harder. First, Brazil. I'm pleased to share that Brazil continues to perform very well. We see new product orders from our newly acquired customers, especially in beauty and cosmetics, as well as NeoSeam. We have initiated capacity expansion in Brazil to cater to better-than-expected beauty and cosmetics demand, and this new capacity will go online by Q1 FY 2025. Capacity expansion in this greenfield location in less than two years post-commercialization speaks volumes about our confidence in this market. This also gives the confidence to succeed in new geographies. As far as personal care and beyond is concerned, we have delivered double-digit growth in beauty and cosmetics in Q3 FY 2025, led by robust performance in EAP and the Americas regions. We have a robust BNC pipeline anchored by NeoSeam tubes and superior printing capabilities.
We are getting new customer contracts across geographies and feel confident as we build our performance in this important category even further. On sustainability, we continue to see strong conversion towards sustainable tubes, and our YTD mix reached 31% compared to 21% in FY 2024. We see sustainable tubes as a way to gain wallet share over the medium term, and the current momentum in sustainable tubes is strongly taking us in that direction. Finally, on margins. Our margins, as you would agree, are in a strong position, as demonstrated by our consistent progress over the past many, many quarters. We have seen continued margin expansion in Europe and Americas, driven by specific restructuring and cost optimization initiatives. We feel optimistic about sustaining and improving these margins even further. There is a comprehensive plan to bring back margins in India, and we have initiated actions to make sure that this happens.
Hence, we feel very confident of delivering continued EBITDA growth ahead of revenue growth. In addition, our strategy of controlling CapEx and interest costs positions us well for consistent, strong growth in PAT, as well as improvements in ROC. Finally, as we look ahead, we remain focused on maneuvering the short-term market softness that we've been experiencing and accelerating our top line to deliver double-digit growth with continued margin improvement. With those opening remarks, I would now like to open up the line for questions.
Thank you very much. We now begin with the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The first question is from Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Thanks for taking my question. In fact, two questions. First is on the India. I think in the previous earnings call, we mentioned that the slowness in the India revenue was temporary, and we were taking price action, and that should push the Q3 revenue. I think things have gone downwards post that call, because the revenue growth has been just 1%, which implies there has been a volume decline on a YoY basis. How does the Q4 look like? Now we are already a month fast in the bag. Number two, India EBITDA margin sequentially has declined, and you have mentioned that we are able to completely pass on the raw material prices. Can you break it? What is the margin foregone in this quarter, because of timing mismatch in the raw material price increase and our price increase to the customer?
That is my first question.
Yeah. So I'll deal with the volume and on the India margin, you know, what exactly happened, but more importantly, what we are going to do to improve it, you know. I'm going to just ask Deepak to help me out there. Now, first of all, I just want to say that we have had volume growth in India, and you know we don't report volume for good reason. We have had volume growth in India, and YTD, our volume growth in India is about 5%. Okay? So I just want to articulate, you know, and make sure that we understand that there is volume growth momentum as far as the marketplace is concerned.
Now, you know, some quarters you sell a bit more, some quarters you sell a bit less, and if you know where to compare that with customer performance, there is a lead lag factor that actually happens. So we are not actually concerned that, you know, there is a significant slowdown. The revenue, of course, I agree with you, is less than what we would have desired, and the impact of that revenue is partly the market where there is some slowdown, without a doubt. Okay? And also the mix that has actually not been favorable this particular quarter. Okay? So I just want to say that I can't tell you what's going to happen in Q4, but I don't think the numbers of revenue actually reflect how we feel. We feel a lot better because there is underlying momentum in the business. Okay?
Let me just hand over to Deepak to share a bit about margin and what happened there.
Yeah. Thanks, Anand. So, India margins, EBITDA at about 17% is lower than our expectations. We are not happy with it. The reasons for the lower EBITDA is slow revenue growth, which obviously puts a lot of pressure on the fixed cost leverage.
Correct.
The gross margins are marginally lower, driven by the continued pricing impact and the mix that Anand spoke about, and also we shared in earlier calls that we have invested in personnel costs in AMESA, especially in India, in functions like sales, and those costs we have not been able to leverage because of the slower revenue growth. The culmination of this is reflecting in the EBITDA numbers, which is at 17%. However, we have taken very concrete actions to shore these margins up, and we are confident of bringing these back by about 150 basis points over the next few quarters, and those actions have already been implemented in the business.
I got it, but Anand, in the presentation, we have mentioned that the beauty and personal care has grown by double digits, I think, more in India and EAP region. I thought that mix should have improved.
Can you speak a little louder, please?
Can you hear me now?
A little better.
Okay. Now? Is it fine?
Yes, go ahead.
Okay. Anand, you mentioned that, in your opening remarks that we have seen double-digit growth in the personal care in these regions, which is AMESA. Then, how has the mix deteriorated? Can you elaborate on that?
No, I said the beauty and cosmetics have grown globally double digit, right? I did not say specifically that it's grown double digit in AMESA. Okay? So yeah, so we have had higher growth in the other regions and less growth on beauty and cosmetics, clearly, in AMESA. But what I want to tell you is this, that on beauty and cosmetics specifically, you will see renewed momentum, particularly in India, right, in the subsequent quarters, right? And we can see that beginning to actually play out now.
Fair enough. Fair enough. My second question is on the Thailand greenfield expansion. Why there is requirement now? Because geographically, China is quite close. What, what compels us in terms of putting the capacity in Thailand and what advantage that is given? And number two, what is the quantum of CapEx are we looking to invest in this plan?
So I'm not in a position to tell you the quantum of CapEx just now, right? And we will disclose that, you know, at a subsequent date. However, I'll give you the logic of why we are doing this. So we're already exporting a fair amount of tubes, largely oral care, from China to Thailand. Now, as we have put business development resources on the ground in Thailand, you know, what we have seen in terms of our pipeline is a very large number of beauty and cosmetics customers where typically the MOQs, the lead time, the pace of.
Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected. The line for the management dropped. Participants, please stay connected while we rejoin the management back to the call. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience. We're at the line for the management reconnected, so you may go ahead. Sanjesh, should we need to guide Sir where he dropped?
No, I just started speaking about the.
He just started. Correct. Correct.
Yeah, so first of all, I'm not in a position to disclose the specific CapEx investment that we're putting into Thailand, but what I do want to say is that we have already built a reasonable business in Thailand, predominantly oral care, exporting, exporting from China. As we put two business development people on the ground in Thailand to sense out and develop that market, what we have realized is that Thailand is a very evolved beauty and cosmetics market, and when we look at the pipeline that these two business development managers have put together, we find that there's a huge list of beauty and cosmetics customers, but they typically have smaller MOQs, lower lead times, and higher rates of change and innovation. Now, that kind of business is not possible for us to do from outside the country.
We believe that, you know, the high ASP margin creative opportunity is there with beauty and cosmetics, and that's why we are setting up a focused beauty and cosmetics unit, at least to start with in Thailand. Once we are on the ground there, then we will see whether we want to localize whatever is exported from China and so on and so forth. But that's plan B. That's not the plan for now. But, you know, Thailand is a large market of about one and a half billion tubes, right, based on our last assessment. There's one large tube supplier on the ground in Thailand, and we believe we have a huge opportunity to get a significant wallet share in that market today. What we have today is a small part, right, of that wallet share, so that is our thinking.
Given our confidence from Brazil, I mean, we really feel we can have a bite of this cherry, which is Thailand.
Anand, I would also add that there are markets of Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, right, which are nearby, and having a facility in Thailand also allows us to cater to those markets, especially in the BNC category, that we are not able to do from China today. It's a very large, exciting market, and we believe we have a great opportunity to build share there.
That's pretty clear. My last question is on the EAP. That geography was doing decent. What's transpired there? It appears to be declining now.
Yeah. So, you know, there have been macro challenges in China, okay, which have been there for probably the last couple of quarters. Okay? Now, how do I see China evolving? See, first and foremost, we don't export from China to markets that could get impacted by Trump tariffs. We do some exports, like I said, in Thailand and so on in Southeast Asia, in ASEAN. And the rest of our business is actually now domestic demand. So what we are doing is we are staying focused on domestic demand, and I'm going to further accelerate our efforts behind beauty and cosmetics. Specifically, we have also put in place, you know, earlier we used to only focus on converting beauty and cosmetics from extruded tubes to laminated tubes.
But now we have also put in an extruded facility in our China market to go head-on and gain share of the extruded tube market. And we've already tasted some initial success, right? And we are thinking of even expanding this capability and facility further. So, so we are going to keep pushing beauty and cosmetics. Oral will probably go at a very modest rate within China. So beauty and cosmetics has to be the mainstay of our growth strategy. But through extruded tubes, through the setting up of Thailand, through more aggressive exports into ASEAN countries, that Deepak said, whether it's Malaysia or Indonesia, we are committed to bringing back solid growth to EAP and working around the, at least the short to medium-term softness that may exist, in China. Our own team's reading, though, is that the domestic market in China is not very soft.
It is the export-driven companies and employment of people who are export-driven companies that is more impacted than a company like ours, so that is our thinking, and basically, you know, we can't do anything about the macros. I think what you have to just recognize is that everything around those macros that we are doing to make sure we mitigate any impact of those macros.
Very clear. Very clear. Thanks, Anand. Thanks, Deepak, for all those answers and best of luck for the coming quarters.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Sameer Gupta from India Infoline. Please go ahead.
Hi. Hi everyone, and thanks for taking my question. First, just a, you know, continuation of the previous participant. So, we've seen a slowdown in revenue growth across geographies, more so in AMESA and EAP. But even Americas and Europe have seen a slow, decent slowdown, you know, from the last quarter. So, and particularly in AMESA, I remember that, you had mentioned there was negative pricing till last quarter, which was to be anniversaried this in this quarter. So, considering that the slowdown is even more. Now, my question is that if particularly China and India are affected by a soft macro, these are not things that just turn around in a couple of quarters. So, what is your outlook? I mean, if double-digit revenue growth is the guidance, by when do you think, you can get back on track to deliver those?
So, I mean, you're absolutely right. The macros may be short-term, medium-term, but more importantly, there is very little we can do about it. What we can do something about is everything around those macros, right, to make sure we mitigate the impact of the macros. So first of all, let me just focus on India-China. I spoke about the various things we are doing, right, which we believe will get us back to a high-quality level of growth. As far as India is concerned, our beauty and cosmetics performance thus far has been soft. But I'm telling you that looking ahead, the performance is going to be much stronger, and we're already seeing signs of that happening. You know, when we call ourselves AMESA region, there are markets outside of India, and we are significantly increasing the aggressiveness behind getting business outside of India, which is the export market.
Okay? And thirdly, there are some big customers with whom we have made actually significant progress, right, which could unlock significant market opportunity. Now, these are the things we're doing really to make sure that we beef up whatever, growth we have to compensate for the macros, right? And of course, we've already spoken about what we are doing on the margin side. So, you know, absolutely, when we look at our numbers, when we look at our outlook, right, for, let's say, FY 2026 and beyond, we are absolutely aiming for double-digit growth in this business. Okay? And, you know, we are building multiple levers in terms of plans to get there. Now, if the macros also turn around, well, I think that will be magical.
Got it, Sir. This is very clear. Second question, Sir, on Thailand. I know you do not want to disclose CapEx and revenue run rate details at this point, but just trying to understand the thought process. Typically, we do greenfield where, you know, there are committed volumes and a large anchor customer, which was our experience in Brazil. This time in Thailand, if it's going to be for beauty and cosmetics with multiple number of players, smaller batch sizes, not committed, type of volumes, also pricing, I remember, in non-oral care is not contracted. So, how do you mitigate these risks? So let's say volumes drop or, you know, customers back out. What happens then?
So you're absolutely right. Historically, we have always gone on the back of a customer commitment, but that by definition has been Oral Care. And therefore, we have been an Oral Care company to start with in those markets. In Thailand, what we are planning to do, and that's why I'm just explaining the concept, is we have a significant Oral Care volume. We're going to keep exporting that from China for now. But what we are doing is to set up a facility replete with printing, tubing, etc., to give us local presence and therefore agility of a very different order. Our pipeline is very strong, and I think the moment we set up shop, we are very confident that we are going to get significant BNC volume from the start. Okay?
But what we are doing is, therefore, we are not setting up a facility like we did in Brazil, right? We're setting up something smaller, but we'll have all the modular capability that we have had in Brazil, right? So this is our approach to also unlock beauty and cosmetics first rather than going as an oral company.
Good, and Sameer, just to kind of add, we now have had our salespeople on the ground in Thailand for more than a year. And in this past year, we have developed a very strong pipeline on the ground already where many of those orders are in finalization stage. So we feel very confident of getting that volume given the response that we have seen, right? And hence, it would be an exciting opportunity to capture.
So just to follow up here, what would be the nature of these customers? I mean, will there be contracted customers and committed volumes even, let's say, for a two-year, three-year period, or it will be as you go, you, you'll get volumes, etc.?
These are beauty and, largely, beauty and cosmetics players with whom we will have contracts. They may not be driven by quantity-led contracts, but there would be agreement which will say that EPL is a supplier to these players. Many of these products are long-term or long-development kind of product in nature, and hence continuance of supply is kind of very high probability. Also, Thailand is a large skincare market, and the entire Southeast Asia that this facility can cater to is a very strong beauty and cosmetics kind of play. Hence, our ability to capture to all of that market and build this geography is very high.
Got it. Just final question, if I may squeeze in, and this is more of a bookkeeping one. Tax rate this quarter is low. I understand base quarter had some one-off, but you haven't called out anything this quarter. So just trying to understand, any guidance you can give for FY 2025 and beyond, especially for tax rates. We kind of struggle in modeling this.
Yeah. So, Sameer, this quarter we have had the benefit in China. In China, we get an exempted, not exempted, but concessional tax rate due to high technology being a high-technology company. That concession for year 2024 onwards was due for renewal. That renewal came in December, and hence earlier months when we provided for 25%, we took that reversal in this quarter. Large part of this concession or the reversal belongs to this financial year itself, and hence it's not a one-off in nature or exceptional item in nature. However, this quarter we have had the benefit. For a steady-state tax rate, we should look at YTD. YTD our tax rate ETR is about 16.9%, which is pretty much, let's say, in line with last year, which was about 18%. There's a country-mix benefit which is coming in.
Long-term, I think our tax rate guidance has always been between 20%-22%, and that should remain.
Got it. This is very, very helpful. Thanks, Deepak. Thanks, Anand. I'll come back in the queue for any follow-ups.
Thank you.
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Akshat. From RSPN Ventures, please, go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. So, sir, my question firstly is on the gross margins. So this quarter, our EBITDA margins are broadly driven by 200 basis points improvement in our gross margins. So do we see this sustaining going forward? And second question will be on the Brazil and Egypt currency depreciation this quarter. So they have seen sharp depreciation in Brazil and Egypt. So how much will be the impact of that in the revenue this quarter?
Yeah. So, first, talking about the GM, GM is driven by, first of all, there is a mix improvement. Second, there is also a positive geography benefit. We have seen Europe and Americas' results improve. These geographies deliver strong gross margins. And with that mix improving, our overall gross margins have improved. We look at our EBITDA performance as a full P&L. And now I'm coming to the second part of your question. Do we see it sustaining? So on the EBITDA margin, we are confident of keep improving our EBITDA margins and delivering growth ahead of revenue because there are multiple initiatives which are still in play. The Europe and Americas initiatives that we have taken are still being played out, and hence, there is some juice there.
On top of that, AMESA margins, as I mentioned earlier, are not up to the mark, and we have an opportunity to improve there further. So with the combination of that, we are confident that EBITDA margins will keep improving. The second point is on Brazil and Forex. So we have seen a Forex loss in this quarter, primarily driven by Brazil and Egypt. The currencies have been volatile. But see, the overall, on a full-year basis, I think one benefit with EPL is that we deal in some 10 currencies, and we cover most of the countries from east to west. So we are there. We have a lot of revenue in Chinese yuan. We are in Europe and Middle East. We have Egyptian pound and Polish zloty, euro. On the western side, we have got dollars and Mexican peso, Brazilian real, etc.
What it does is that it gives us a natural coverage. Whenever there will be currencies that will keep devaluing and then appreciating. But on an overall basis, currency generally gets offset on a full-year basis. That's how we see this play. Just for context, in this quarter, Q4, so far, Brazilian Real has again improved, and Egyptian Pound has also improved. So this is not something we see moving in one direction.
Got it. Got it, sir. That was helpful. And just one last question from my side. So I understand you cannot guide on the CapEx number for Thailand, but can you do that for Brazil brownfield CapEx?
See, Brazil. I think important point rather than the quantum of the investment. I think the important point is, that we have already, within two years of our commercialization, we have decided to go for a capital expansion, right? And that is a very, very positive movement. We have seen a strong demand for beauty and cosmetics, in that geography. And this CapEx is, now needed much earlier than we anticipated. That positivity, I think, we should capture. The amount of investment we should be able to confirm, in subsequently. And this expansion is purely for beauty and cosmetics, right, which is going to give us higher ASPs and, you know, be far better from a P&L standpoint as well.
Got it, sir. Thank you so much. All the best.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Vinamra Hirawat from JM Financial. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Am I audible?
Yeah.
So, sir, my question was, you know, regarding the Trump tariffs for your U.S. customers. Could we have a breakdown of, you know, where the tubes originate from in terms of country of manufacturing? You know, which countries are the largest exporter of the tubes to the U.S. market? Because this would help us assess, you know, potential supply chain risks if tariffs were imposed on specific countries.
So actually, we are not too worried about the Trump tariffs. We don't, first of all, export any tubes to the U.S. We make all the tubes that we sell in the U.S. in the U.S. The only thing we export are laminates. Now, we make laminates in India and China. Earlier, we used to export from China to the U.S., and then the Trump tax came, and we then moved all the supply of laminates from India, right, to the U.S. So today, it all goes from India. And everything else we manufacture on the ground in the U.S. Okay? We have a manufacturing plant in Mexico that caters essentially to the Mexican market as well. Okay? So, you know, I mean, we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what he might do against India, right?
We'll have to just wait and see for any adverse announcements in that area. But for now, I don't think we're losing sleep over that.
Also, there could be some benefit coming our way if there are large duties imposed on China. China today, as a country, exports a lot of extruded tube to the U.S. If duties are imposed, then some of that demand actually can be fulfilled from India. We have extruded facility in India, and then we could capture that demand. We are watching this space, and if there are any opportunities, we will go and capture them.
I think that's a good point, huh? We might actually benefit from the Trump tariffs given our geographic flexibility.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Vedant Bhasin from Minerva Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir, am I audible?
Yeah.
Yes. So my question is more of a qualitative one. I just wanted to understand for two specific geographies, Brazil and Europe, Americas, but Brazil is more focused. I'm just trying to understand how we're able to grow at maybe double digits in an industry that I don't think grows more than mid-single digits. So I want to understand what exactly our strategies are over here. Is it pricing? Is it higher ASPs? And how sustainable is this really?
You want me to explain specifically Brazil and Europe, right?
Correct.
Okay. So first, let me take Europe. Now, Europe has been present for a long time, but we have been a single-digit market share player in Europe. Okay? And Europe is the biggest beauty and cosmetics region in the world. If I'm honest, we have been fraught with internal challenges in Europe for many, many years. We were manufacturing too much in Germany. The costs were too high, and we had just a spate of internal challenges because of which, I think, honestly, we were too internally focused on fixing the problems rather than being externally focused to gain share. In the last few quarters, ever since we have made some structural and people interventions in Europe, I think that thing has started transforming.
Actually, while we don't share volume numbers, we have been, I would say, pleasantly surprised with the amount of volumes that we've been getting in Europe. Okay?
Mm-hmm.
What we believe is that Europe is going to grow very strongly just because now we have fixed our ability to service our cost model in Europe and put the right people in place to get that business. And the first signs of that are already visible. Okay? So Europe is about gaining share of the huge headroom that exists, which we could not harness before. You know, Brazil, we have just entered, and we are still a very small player in Brazil again. We have been commercially active in Brazil for, you know, under two years, actually one and a half years to be precise. Okay? And, you know, while, you know, in oral care, we went on the back of a contract customer. We have had orders from other customers. But what we've been really pleasantly surprised about is what's happening on beauty and cosmetics.
And most of that is NeoSeam, incidentally. We've been really surprised by the amount of orders and the pipeline that we are getting there. So again, in Brazil, we've started recently, and it's a massive market in itself, and we are probably just still a single-digit player in that market, right, or low double-digit player in that market. So it's again headroom for growth. So I think when we have low shares, so if you look at India, where we have very high shares, the category growth is far more critical to our growth strategy, right? And we have to do different things, to grow if the category is not supportive of growth. But in Europe and Brazil, it is really about being competitive. It is not about discounting on price. I want to make it clear.
But it's about innovation, service, and quality that delights the customers who are in that market compared to the other suppliers who are there, right? And like I said, in both these cases, we've tasted blood, right, over the last few quarters of the last year or so. So, I actually am very confident about our ability to grow, well, double-digit, time will tell, but grow very strongly in both these markets.
All right. Understood. Thank you. That's helpful, and my second question is, just a quantitative question on if you can just tell me what margins are on a general blended level because I know you, you don't give volumes or because there's a lot of different types of products. But if you can tell me what the margins are on oral versus beauty, that would be helpful to model.
You're asking for o ral versus beauty margin.
Yeah. What are the margins there?
On beauty and cosmetics, on a per-tube basis, the margins are significantly higher than oral. That is driven by the higher selling price because the selling price of beauty and cosmetics is significantly higher than oral care tube. On the percentage basis, however, they are very similar, right? Beauty and cosmetics, in some markets, beauty and cosmetics, depending upon the kind of embellishment which is there on the tube, is slightly higher. In other markets, slightly lower. But on the whole, they are very, very similar. However, at the EBITDA level, and Anand, thanks for reminding, the beauty and cosmetics are significantly better because the fixed cost allocation, when you are selling a tube, you are selling a tube, right? So the fixed cost allocation that happens on beauty and cosmetics tubes as a percentage are lower with the benefit of higher revenue.
Hence, EBITDA that the beauty and cosmetics tubes make are better.
Understood. All right. Thank you so much for taking time.
Not at all. Thank you.
Thank you very much. A reminder to all the participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Siddhant Purohit from InvesQ Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Sure. Hi, sir. So a lot of my questions have been answered. Just one clarification. When you talk about double-digit growth, you mean to say, in terms of volume because, or it's a mix of pricing and volume that you are looking at?
Yeah. It is revenue growth, and therefore it has volume, has mix because we have clearly said that BNC will grow faster than oral care. So there's mix, right? And there is some pricing depending on how commodities move. Okay? So it has all three components in our double-digit growth guidance, which is a revenue growth guidance.
Thanks. And, sir, given the slowdown in this quarter, and almost half of the quarter has gone by now, so in the coming quarter also, we might see further slowdown given the, like, you know, global environment. How is it shaping up?
I don't expect so, but I don't know what I don't know, but I don't expect so, right? I expect things to only get better, you know, in this quarter and beyond. But, you know, I mean, who the hell knows what's going to happen in March, right? So that's the problem, right? There's that uncertainty is there, but, you know, honestly, I feel it'll be better.
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. A reminder to all the participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. As there are no further questions, I'll now hand the conference over to Mr. Pratik Tholiya for closing comments.
Yeah. Thanks, Neeraj. Once again, on behalf of Systematix, I'd like to thank all the participants who've logged into this call. Thanks to the management for giving us the opportunity and answering all the questions very candidly. Sir, would you like to make any closing comments?
No. I just want to thank everyone for their continued interest in our company.
All right. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you, everyone. Bye-bye.
Thank you. On behalf of Systematix Shares and Stocks, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.