Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Warm welcome to all of you to consider our investor meet for Q4 and FY 2024 results. First of all, many thanks to each one of you to coming, for coming here despite your busy schedule. I know a lot of companies are declaring results and you are busy covering them. Thanks for coming. You're aware that Kansai Nerolac is more than a 100-year-old company, and today we are in the 104th year of its operation. We have with us today Mr. Anuj Jain, our Managing Director, and Mr. Jason Gonsalves, who is Director, Corporate Planning, IT and Materials. Also, our entire management committee is here. In case any of you wants to interact, you are free to do so.
You all know that we are market leaders in industrial paints and with a very high market share in automotive paints, and we can say with pride that 5 of 6 or 7 cars are painted by Nerolac. Our industrial growth for the current year has been very good. For the past few years, we have been taking a lot of initiatives in the decorative area, and it has started showing results. If you see our growth in this fourth quarter, we have been able to deliver double-digit volume growth in decorative as well. Overall, our performance for the year has been pretty good, with EBITDA growth of about 29% and profit before tax growth of about 42%. Now, without wasting more time, I would like to invite Mr. Anuj Jain to share his thoughts. Post this, there will be a Q&A.
Once again, thank you very much for coming. Thank you very much.
Sure. Good evening. Welcome, all of you. Thanks for joining today here. This is our second physical in-person meet. In fact, based on your suggestion last year, we started last year, same month, we had the first meeting, and then we are continuing this practice, all suggestions from all of you. I am Anuj Jain, and it will be my pleasure to walk you through our company's performance and outlook. As Prashant introduced, I think the entire management team is here. Can the management team please just get up if they can all see you all? So this is our management committee team. Entire management committee team is here, and I'm going to share with you how this team is leveraging the opportunities and navigating the current market dynamics. Yeah. Presentation. So I'll take you through this presentation. Move.
Someone is going to operate from there, right? At least you go to the next slide. So this is the... Which one? This one. Okay. So this is the agenda, which I'll take you through the business environment. I'll talk about the Nerolac story and the financial performance, Prashant has covered, but still we'll go through it. So talking about the business environment, what has happened? Is it, is it okay? Can you hear me? The back side, is my voice clear? Is it better now? Okay, so the demand has been good in automotive. In fact, automotive, penetration in India is low, and generally last 10, 15, 20 years, we have seen that demand is cyclic.
But as the country is progressing, the infrastructure is progressing, we believe that in the, you know, going forward, the demand is not going to be that cyclic, it is going to be stable. So that's good news for us, you know, because we have our largest market share in the automotive. Infrastructure growth, the government is spending, the CapEx cycle is, has been up, and therefore the growth in this non-auto industrial, which is high performance coating, general industrial, also has been quite consistent in last few years, and going forward also, we see the same momentum to continue. Rural growth has been impacted for last one and a half, two years, and in our business it was reflected, in industrial it was reflected in two-wheelers, but last six months there is a pickup there. It is also reflected in the decorative.
So generally in the rural, probably some recovery, which, you know, that we are hearing from, from the FMCG companies also. But in our case, it is seen in the B2B business more, as of now, less in B2C business. But in the past also, we have seen that if the rural is under stress, and whenever rural comes out, the B2B does better, and then the consumer business follows. There have been challenges in the business, geopolitical, crude fluctuation, rupee depreciated, all these challenges. Geopolitical situation has become something very, very difficult to predict because we don't know what is going to happen every time something new comes up. But despite all this volatility, despite all this uncertainty, I think the raw material price is benign and remained stable, so we have not faced any challenges, and I think it is going stable even now.
Coming to Nerolac story, last year we spoke about it. This is our purpose, "Create environment for a healthy and beautiful future," is our purpose. And this picture is a matter of pride for us. If you see, you know, that's why we say that we are one of the most diversified portfolio in the paint industry. You just talk about the surface which needs a paint, and we are there. And in the yellow mark, these are some areas which we have added in last, you know, two or three years' time. So we are expanding the market. We are seeing that what other surfaces needs a paint, and we are coming up, with the product on that. Some of the positive comments related to our purpose, which I said, creating environment for a healthy. We became water positive in 2023, 2024.
That's the target we kept for us, and we achieved the target. Emission reduction, I'll talk about when I come to the ESG slide, but that's also, you know, we are following a target. And the green energy, you know, every year we are making a good progress. So in the ESG, we have established our metrics, and, you know, we are following that metrics and we are achieving our targets. The brand, which is, like, 104 years old brand, second strongest brand, the mind share. When we talk about the market share, you know, generally, the mind share come first. The brand has been strong. Our jingle has been very, very strong, and even in last one or two years, the brand score, which we call Brand Equity Index, has further improved. So our awareness, the consideration, all has gone up.
All our communication last year, I shared with you that we are talking about Paint+, Japanese, the leadership in industrial, the Paint+ products, what we are launching. So that's the innovation we are continuing, and I'll show some of the details with you, and obviously, the legacy of more than 100 years. Here, I would like to share one film with you, which basically, yeah, you know, captures the essence of Nerolac, what we are going to talk about. And let's watch, you know, for a moment together, this film. Yeah.
Let the magic flow with Japanese technology. We share a future of dreams fulfilled, as well as a rich history. Together, we can forge the way to success by strengthening our ties. We can achieve growth through mutual respect. Our solutions rouse excitement and bring trust to the world we live in. Let's coat the world with innovation.
So this showcase, the Happy Nerolac, the product, the technology, the people, you know that, and I'll talk about few points. So coming to give you some glimpse of businesses and decorative. So we spoke about last 2-3 years, we have been talking about it, that what initiatives we have taken in decorative paint. All of you cover paints, and you know that it has been a very traditional business. Typically, this business was all about, you have a distribution, you are selling paint to them by giving discount, you are doing painter meets, and you do some advertisement. That's how this model has been.
So I think what we realized is that going forward, as the consumer space is changing, the business models will also change, and therefore, we took as a challenge, and to understand that, you know, what the future business model is going to be. And this slide covers that, you know, we started Paint+, new product, premium, influencer, new business, project, branding, and I'll talk about it, that how this journey we are traveling. So first part is a Paint+. The first part of our journey is, you know, traveling from paint to Paint+. So paint is about color. You know, when people think about paint, they want to do a color, but color is given. This industry is INR 75,000 crore-INR 80,000 crore, INR 15,000 crore-INR 20,000 crore of informal also.
So whenever the consumer is doing a paint, he expect color, and color is given on the table. But how about the performance? Because the structure, the, you know, it needs a lot of solution, and that's why, you know, because we are expert in the paints, we are having a great market share in the industrial, and our thinking, our strength is the technology, the expert area. How do we bring that in decorative? And that's what the Paint+ is all about. So we introduced 15, more than 15 products in the last year. The salience is about 10%. We are also launching some of the unique product that could be unique in terms of their feature or unique in terms of their, you know, pricing. So we introduced 4 new product in Paint+. The salience has increased by 150 basis points.
How it help us or how it will help us in future? It insulate from the competition, because in these products, we are not fighting, so there's no discount pressure or there's no, like, there's a price drop. So here we take our own pricing strategy. So therefore, you know that we are looking forward at how do we keep increasing the saliency of the Paint+ products and the premium. In fact, you know, in the popular category, economic category, our market share is better. In the premium category, there was a scope, and that's one initiative we have taken, 150 basis point. Saliency has increased in the premium, products. Next part of the strategy is related to influencer. The one is paint as a service. So as I said, paint to Paint+ is the first part of the journey.
The product to services is the second part of the journey. So we are selling product, but today the consumer space is changing. People want solution, and the solution can be provided by the services. So we got into the services. We came up with a unique proposition that it can be painted in 3 days, 5 days, shorter time, the convenience painting... And today, last 1.5 years, because this required to set up a dedicated team, the infrastructure, the digital infrastructure, all that we are ready with, and our capability now is to paint 5,000+ sites in a month. So we, in the last year, we got decent contribution coming from the paint as a service, and now it is going up month-on-month basis. Architects, interior decorators are playing crucial role.
Earlier also, they used to play, but now it is becoming very popular, not across all the towns, but we have identified the towns where the influence of architect and interior decorator on the paint consumption is very, very high. And again, we have created a team, and this is like, you know, when we talk about the Paint+, because everything cannot be tackled through the advertisement on the TV. It is like one-to-one. So through this, you know, team, who goes to the site, meet the consumer, meet the architect. If architect want, they meet the contractor, and there we take the opportunity to demonstrate. We have our demo kits, which are provided to all these people, that how these products are, you know, different. And, we are already connected with 5,000 plus architects. Very good response we are getting.
Whatever site recommendation we get from the architects, 70% of that is the premium product. You know, otherwise, premium saliency is very, very low. So that’s a good initiative, good, giving us a good traction. Painter. Painter has become very important. I think we keep talking about the consumer, you know, the role is going up, but in the paint, I think the painter also is becoming very important, because still it's a fact that the consumer does not understand, you know, that how the paint is different from the other paint. So painter play that role of consultant or, you know, advocate. So we have come up with the initiative, which is related to a painter, Pragati, and we are using now the artificial intelligence platform to pick up that who...
You know, which painters are working with us, not working with us, buying this product, or they can be upgraded. And earlier, we used to have a general communication for all. Now, there is a specific cohorts we come out with that, you know, this set of painter, this activity, this, you know, set of painter, this kind of incentive, and there's a capability which we have built over a period of last two years. The last part is, you know, primary to secondary. So as I said, paint to Paint+, journey one, the product to services, journey two, and the primary to secondary. So traditional model, giving to the dealer, dumping to the dealer, and then waiting whether the dealer is going to sell and how soon it is going to sell.
But now there are secondary efforts, which again is a team, you know, the feet on the street. What we have created is a very, very large team who meet the painters. We give them the lead; the dealer gives them the lead. They go to the sites of the customer and try to convert the business. So this is the model which we have been working upon. I'll show some of the progress which has happened. This is one glimpse of the service which I was talking about. On the digital, we are going very, very aggressive in terms of communicating that what this service is all about. These are some of the digital platforms what we have introduced in last one year. Dealer, so it's a dealer app.
You know, the dealers can get any information, he can do any transaction with the company. The painter initiative is 100% on the digital. So when we started some of the new initiatives, we have not given any choice for the manual. So today, we are able to track each and every sale, the incentive and everything, the buying behavior, the consumption. So everything is, you know, digital. The architect, interior designers, you know, they can recommend their sites, and we can track, you know, the site and what is the progress, you know, things happening. We are also ready with the digital commerce. Not the right time to talk about what we are going to do, but we are also ready with this, you know, platform, you know, the digital platform.
One another initiative which we started 1.5 years back, but we are not talking much about it. Now, we made good progress on that; it is a next-gen Shoppe. So there are obviously good big retail counters who want to upgrade their shops, you know, to the showrooms, so next-gen Shoppe. Now, today, as we stand here, more than 80+ Shoppes we have built. It's... And then there's a shop-in-shop model. The right side, if you see, this is the shop-in-shop model, which is like a smaller space, so that also 80+, and it is growing on a month-to-month basis. It has a very small sensor, kind of spectrophotometer, which is called Nix. So ultimately, when the customer goes, and 5,000 customers have already tested it in last 6 months' time, 8 months' time.
So basically, that if you have a choice of shade, which is not there in the shade card, it's a very like button type kind of Nix. You know, it can read the shade, and from the machine, that shade can be provided. So it's a very consumer friendly, so it gives a good image, and the imagery and the, you know, functionality is a part of this concept. New businesses where we started late, but then we entered, you know, because our distribution, what we have with us, 25% of the dealers are exclusive dealers, and some of the new businesses were becoming an integral part of the paint. So we introduced the construction chemical, waterproofing, the premium wood finishes. The saliency in the last year has gone up by 180+ basis points.
Significant growth in new businesses and, the influencer, the product what we are launching, the range is complete, the distribution, you know, who wanted to deal with us for this kind of product is there with us. I think in the new business, if I talk about 2023, 2024, we have already started doing better than the market. The project business, because clear-cut trend is that there is a verticalization which is happening, and it is spreading into the other towns also. The societies, the apartments, multi-level apartments are coming up. So this was one of our weak area two years back. Then we set a team, we expanded it to 75+ towns now. The number of active contractors have gone up.
We had created a separate brand for project business, which we expanded the number of product in the last 1 year. The most important part in this business is creating a pipeline. Do I know that how many buildings are getting painted in any town, you know, where we are present, and how much we know about that? So it's a very hard work. There's street by street, you have to go and do a mapping. Then if you create a pipeline, then we know that, you know, this business, in which year this business is going to come, then you approach. So I think we have built that. It has become a part of system. So when we start this year, there is a pipeline ready. So it's not that we have to generate the pipeline and go and put the effort.
So it is going to speed up, speed up, speed up. Salience of this business has gone up by 100 basis points. Again, in this business in 2023, 2024, we have grown faster than the market. Branding and media, where we said that, you know, we are increasing our marketing expenditure. Last two years, we have increased our marketing expenditure. And, you know, as I spoke about, that our Brand Equity Index has strengthened. We continue to be a number two brand. It has become better. Digital, if you see, we have made a good progress. So that is last three years trend. You can see it here, that how we have increased our digital presence, and accordingly, that, you know, how are we outreaching the consumers specific to the market, specific to the target audience.
The result is that website, on website, we are seeing multiplication in terms of traffic now. The lead generation, which we generate through our, you know, website, where we are also able to capture the consumer data. So today, we are sitting with a large amount of consumer data, which going forward, when the consumer have to repaint in 3 years to 5 years' time, you know, that, that data exists with us, so that capability also, we have built. Some of the campaign which we have been doing on TV or digital, you know, some of these pictures are there, and maybe some film which I just want to, take you through. In fact, some of the films, if you remember, on the Paint+, because ultimately the communication, what we said is what we stand for, Paint+ Japanese technology, right, and Nerolac jingle.
These are the three assets that will differentiate Nerolac from any other paint company, and that has been the part of our ad film. I'm not showing all the film what I've shown last year, but two of the films and some of the digital films and one new initiative which we started in South, in Tamil Nadu, and therefore, Tamil Nadu specific film we have created. Let's, let's have a look at that. Kashmir.
Nerolac. Hmm?
Paint smell ya. Nerolac Impressions Kashmir. No smell? Impossible.
Possible. Hmm.
Lucky. [Foreign lanuage] . No smell!
[Foreign language] .
[Foreign language] .
This one is a new film which we just created, and it was launched in Tamil Nadu.
[Foreign language] -
[Foreign language] .
Hello, friends. Festive season is almost here, and [Foreign language] . For all your wood coating work, friends, do remember Nerolac's fabulous ICRO Wood coating range, which is imported from Italy. [Foreign language] , high quality standards wale Nerolac ICRO Wood coating range [Foreign language] premium Italian finish with a wide range of gloss levels and a choice of more than 2,000 color shades. All the products in the range are highly durable, matlab long-lasting. Whether you are protecting and enhancing the natural beauty of your wooden furniture, doors, or window frames, Nerolac ICRO Wood coating range has got you covered.
So if you see, you know, all this film, one thing I want you to notice, whether we are talking about Kashmir or Everlast, the message is very different. So we are not giving any general message. So in the world of communication, especially, and when you want to be very efficient, what is important, because there are 40%, 50% consumers and that talks, any consumer research talk about it, they're ready to do the experimentation. They're ready to see that what different benefit is there. Nerolac is known brand, so that's why we are talking about no smell, okay? So that's a catch. So we are looking at a very specific audience and, you know, who is able to connect with this kind of benefit. Everlast, we are talking about self-cleaning property.
After the rain, small layer of the paint comes off, therefore, after the rain, your building looks good. Then some of the other films, Permaji, Sharmaji, you know, because Nerolac Perma is our brand for the waterproofing. So these are like educational films on the digital. So that is what we are continuously doing, and as I had shown in the previous slide, that how our digital expenditure is going up. There we are now able to utilize them because you are able to target the audience specifically through the digital. So the very key marquee projects, what we have done in last one year, Wankhede Stadium, Lucknow Airport, Atal Bihari Stadium, Ayodhya Dham, you know, Delhi Railway Station, Bharat Seva shram .
Some of these projects, as I spoke about, that I know we have started because project business is that you have to create the credential, and more credential you create, the more business you start getting. Some of the reward and recognition our team had got in decorative, which is mentioned here, just for your information. Shifting to—so, so basically, if you look at, you know, decorative business, with all this initiative, what we have put, when we started, you know, 2022, 2023, when we were ready, because it took some time for the digital and all these things. So we tried it 5%, the dealers who are contributing 5% to our sale, and then when we had seen the response.
Last year, then we had scaled it up to the number of dealers who are contributing 30% of our sale. And although 30% of the dealer, our growth is better or equal, definitely it is better than the market. So we have tested, you know, these models that, because ultimately everything has to get linked with the dealer. And going forward, therefore, we are looking at expanding and further scaling it up. No, that’s one part of the retail. The other part of the retail is that, as I said, rural market, which is still, you know, that though there is some progression and we are hopeful that, going forward it will improve, but that has been a little lag in the last year.
In the rural, our contribution is higher, so therefore, there is some impact of that, and the moment the rural picks up, as a KNP, we'll see the benefit of that. Coming to industrial business, the passenger vehicle, where our market share is very, very high, 7% demand growth if you look at the SIAM report. The EV, the penetration has gone up almost double, 100% growth. And our strategy here is a new technology, so tin-free CED, what we are talking about here. The differentiation is that low baking time, what we are talking about. Low baking time mean the less energy, cost saving, energy saving, better productivity, those kind of things. And, so it help in terms of the, the environment area also, it helps in terms of decarbonization, in terms of the customer benefit also.
Two-wheeler, again, our market share is very, very high, and there, the first six months, the demand was lagging. Last two quarter, the demand has picked up. That’s a good sign for us. We have a good market share. And again, a lot of new products, new technology, new innovative product we have launched in this market. Commercial vehicle, tractor, have been little lag in the last one year. So in industrial, we are, you know, automotive or when we are talking about because our, you know, the market share is high there, so what we are looking at is that how do we deploy new technologies? How do we get into a new segment? So therefore, there we have the opportunity to increase the size of the market.
In the last 1 year, 1.5 years, we have entered the alloy wheels, sealers and underbody, zinc flake coatings. All these are niche, very, you know, but has a good, decent business size, and we are exploring some more opportunities in this particular area. Coming to refinish business, where we are a late entrant, market share is in single digit. But again, our focus is on the premium side and, almost double sale in the premium we have done in the last year. A-class body shop is something what we are targeting. Digitization, body management, body shop management software, what we have introduced in the market. So though, you know, the market share, in terms of market share, we are definitely looking at expansion, but only through the premium is our strategy in refinish.
The high-performance coating or general industrial, which is a non-auto second part, which also has been a part of our trust. In fact, we are increasing our focus in this business to increase our share, increase our business. In liquid, we have done very well, because in the liquid business, one business is OEM business, the other business is the channel related. I know channel is able to cater to a small, small industries, so there, our focus was there, and we have been able to expand our market there. Premium, you know, because we, we shared with you in the past that we came out with some of the low contribution, low margin business, and we increased our focus in the premium, where you need a technology approval. There, there is an improvement of 70 basis point.
We are introducing a lot of global product with the help of our Kansai, Japan, the subsidiary of Kansai in Europe. You know, we are introducing. These are a very different kind of product where the, you know, some of the product which I mentioned here, anti-carbonation for bridges, you know, interpenetrating system. So very, very high technology product, very, very high durability, 15 years, 20 years kind of life. Powder, our market share is more than 40%. We are market leader there, but the growth has been, there has been a lag in the last 1 year. But there again, the premium is our strategy, and we have been able to expand the saliency, in powder or premium by 120, you know, basis point. So technology support, because in this business, the technology is very, very important. We have a Kansai support.
We have the subsidiaries, especially, you know, Europe, and we are working with the Turkey very, very closely. And, you know, the, like, there is a high-end railway coaches, which is happening in India now, and already they are there in Europe, approved. Our products are being applied, so that's the kind of help we are getting. So these are some of the prominent project in industrial, the non-auto part, what we shared with you two years. This is what we have done: Mumbai Coastal Road, Trans Harbour Link, Bullet Train, Vande Bharat. So that's the kind of technology, a different product, you know, what we are talking about.
These are some of the, again, reward and recognition from our customers, you know, which basically further strengthen the strong point, what we say, that here, this, our, you know, the right to win is very, very strong, and this is what is endorsed by the customers again and again. Manufacturing, our capacity is 600 million liters per year, and in terms of the backward integration in decorative emulsion, in industrial, the resins, you know, the solvent-based resins. So that is what we have been augmenting in terms of creating the capacity, and almost today, everything is, well, it's like, you know, self-produced and, you know, consumed. We are doing a lot of digitalization in the factories. So in powder, we have tried, you know, the factory.
The idea is that, you know, when you do a digitalization, the manual intervention goes away, so your quality is consistent, your throughput goes up, you know, your breakdown goes down. So it's become, you know, quite efficient. So this is one initiative we have taken. We have piloted, tested, we got the result, and we will be taking it forward again. Why it's not going forward? The slide is not moving forward. Maybe you have to press escape from there. Yeah. Supply chain, material cost, highly focused, one, that raw material prices were benign, but a lot of initiatives have been taken in terms of alternate innovative raw materials. We did a lot of focus in terms of, you know, making our products available in the market, because today the number of products have increased. That's a good change in the market.
The dealers or market is accepting new and new product micro segments, and therefore, the number of SKUs have gone up, and in many of the market, it is difficult for the dealers to increase their space. So therefore, it is important for us to supply as and when it is required. So we improved, we expanded our distribution and network in terms of the number of depots. We have started providing one innovation, the bike service, in the bigger towns that in the premium product, you know, where dealer does not want to keep, because today these premium products are INR 10,000 a drum or INR 15,000 a drum. He doesn't want to keep an inventory, so even if he needs one drum or two drum, we supply within, you know, maybe one hour or two hour. So that's the kind of service what we have started.
We are using SAP Ariba platform to see that how we can generate more efficiency in our procurement. Human capital has been, the people first has been the approach, and there we did lot. Great Place to Work, we are certified, but more than that, we have created an internal platform, Life at Nerolac, you know, which is like happy. In the, in this video film also, you must have seen the happy organization, you know, where people are working together, collaborate together, and we celebrate a small, small achievement. We do counseling, we do well-being initiatives, you know, that... So there's a lot of initiatives we have started as a part of people first. How do we nurture the talent? One is the Gurukul.
In fact, we have started going very aggressive in terms of recruiting the management trainees from the management institutes, and there we have formulated a program which is called Gurukul. And then there is Abhyaas, the leadership training. We have tied up with one of the most reputed management institute, and we are providing a leadership training even to the senior team, where the group coaching or the individual coaching is involved. We have done a lot of work on the innovation. So last to last year, we spoke about innovation. We launched the initiative of innovation in the company. Then last year, we have created a digital platform, and now it's a system, it's a process which we have set under the name of Avinya. And then, when we got success out of it, a lot of ideas were generated inside.
We have gone outside with the initiative called Neon, where we invited the campuses to... So we give a problem, what we face in our business, and we, you know, throw it to the campus and where the student participate, and they come up with the newer solutions. So that's the initiative as a part of the collaboration, this innovation we have started. ESG, a very, very important focus for us. In industrial, all our customers, there is an ask, and as a company, based on our purpose, we are also very focused on this. In this year, we are awarded by EcoVadis. Probably, we are the only company in this space who got the bronze medal from the EcoVadis.
Before this, we, I think we shared S&P, FTSE, CRISIL, you know, that we have been recognized on our ESG effort, and we are the only Indian paint company to get the SBTi near-term reduction target approved. So it is in line with that 1.5 degree, how the temperatures should not go beyond that. So, you know, we are the only Indian paint company to get this approved. So we have a roadmap that by 2030, how we are going to reduce the, you know, emission. So this is some of the data which is there in front of you, 13% reduction, and we are covering Scope 1, Scope 2, Scope 3, not only Scope 1, Scope 2. Today, the total energy, renewable energy is 49%. Only electricity is 38%.
As I said, water positive, you know, we have become, and you know, some of these data I had given here. Environment, health, safety. So again, global safety is a big, you know, area of focus for the company. So global safety quality is an initiative, audits which are conducted by our parent company, Kansai, in Japan, and our score is 96%. Any score, which is more than 90%, is supposed to be, you know, good here. We have done life cycle assessment of all the products, and these products are being evaluated to again reduce the emission, and then we go for environment product declaration. That initiative, we have completed. Occupational health and safety, you know, behavior training, all these things we have carried out.
Waste management, just to mention, like, the plastic rule, which has started a few years back, and extended producer responsibility. So we have achieved 100% target under the Plastic Waste Management Rules of 2023-2024. Whatever target was there, you know, we have been able to achieve that. CSR initiatives, again, you know, we promote lot of internal participation. It's not because it's a rule from the government, so one has to spend money, but we do take this exercise very seriously, and we work as per the sustainability development goals, and we follow that. Some of the activities, what we have done, most of the activities we do in the area of skill enhancement, promoting education, community building, and mostly we do it in the areas where our factories are there, in the surrounding areas.
So we have been doing activities. We do a impact study of the main activities. We do mapping that the activities what we have done, how they are impacting the lives of the people in those villages. So these are some of the highlights, now related to the different areas. Now about the financial performance, which I'll not speak about it, because Prashant has already mentioned, but you must have seen the result. It's good, 3.5% revenue growth in the quarter, 4.4% during the year. If you look at the PBT, 32.7% for the quarter and 42% for the year. So this is what we have achieved. If you see the EBITDA, I just go back. Sorry.
So on the standalone EBITDA, if you see 13.8%, I think we have been discussing, that's our target, what we were keeping the band 13%-14%, so this is what we achieved. This is on the consolidated basis. Dividend, we have declared a special dividend. Total dividend is 375%, so if you compare with the last year, it is increased, so that's also we have done. And CapEx, we have increased in 2023-2024. Further, it will go up in 2024-2025. Some of the cash, we have a healthy cash in our balance sheet, in our books, so you know, that we are going to use for the opportunity, and here, how we do a backward integration in the industrial to part of it in the decorative also.
You know, capacity creation is something what we're looking at. The subsidiaries is muted, you know, because all the countries, unfortunately, post-COVID, finding it difficult to, you know, come out of the situation. Some other challenges are there. It is there in Nepal also, Sri Lanka also, Bangladesh also. I think the entire industry, all industries, are facing some problem in the subsidiaries, but our contribution of these subsidiaries, the total business is, not, not very high. But, the team is working, and we are... You know, I think it will take some time, but we are going to come out as the countries come out of this problem, and then these subsidiaries will start contributing.
In Sri Lanka, despite last 2-3 years, situation was not so good, we have increased our market share in Sri Lanka, and despite all the industries going negative, but we have been, you know, growing. So thank you so much. This is what I wanted to share with you, and now I'll be very happy to receive your questions. Yes. You have to pass the mic there. If you can have one or two mics, and a few people can stand there.
Yeah, thanks. My first question is on the market share in the last one year, and how do you see, because a new player has also come. He will be advertising in second half, mass media significantly. So how do you see that impacting your ad budget in second half? And till now, one and a half months has gone, since Grasim announced entry. I know these are still early days, but what have you picked up from some of the markets where the launch has happened? Any initial feedback you can share on what is the customer response, what is the painter response, what is the architect response?
So it's. As of now, I can say there is no impact on the business. I think we have been talking earlier also that it is. This industry takes time, because there are different verticals. You have to build brand, you have to build dealers, you have to build painters, and it is not a game like one month or three months somebody can be able to do. And for the market, it is always good that the new players are there, but if somebody want to create a market overnight, then, you know, probably it will not happen like that, so it will take time. Initial response to the launch has happened, it's fine. It's like, you know, because this industry is a very complicated industry.
So as we expected, there could be a lot of execution gaps, you know, which probably are seen at this stage. But obviously, in any new business, the teething issues would be there. Related to when you say they start advertising, it's fine, because any new brand comes up, you need to advertise, they need to advertise. It doesn't mean that, you know, you need to respond to that particular level. I think in preparation or based on our strategy, last two years, we've already increased our marketing expenditure. What is important for us is that our brand is already established. What we need to encash, as I told you, that our mindshare is higher, the market share is lower, and that's the opportunity which is available with us. How do we capture that opportunity?
Because when the demand comes in the market, you are able to capture the demand through your activities related to a painter or dealers or the services what we are talking about. So that is the way we are prepared. Our market share, you know, is in the range of around 10%, so what we look at is the 90% opportunities which are available for us. And therefore, I think, you know, our preparedness in terms of digital or other activities, some of the activities what I have shared there, so we are prepared. And it's fine. I think gradually we welcome the new player, and gradually, I think market can absorb, but no one can turn it around in a very, very short time.
One related question is, the new company which has entered, they seem to be talking about some industry first, which I don't think is industry first. I think every entrant has done that. But still, given INR 10,000 crore kind of a plans, wanted to check on one year extra warranty, 10% extra grammage, and digitally connected tinting machine. Does any of these matter, given their size? I know this has been, this has been tried, but do you think that you and other players would need to respond? These are early days, so not asking on current, but is this a disruption?
No disruption, you know, because generally what happens is that if you give a free material to the consumer, if you are painting your house, and I tell you that you take 10% extra material, if you need 20 liters, what you are going to do with that paint? You are not going to sell that paint. So it doesn't work like that. Consumer thinking is that if you say that very good product at a lower price, that also, you know, work very less, because if the product is excellent, then the price premium has to be there. So I don't think it's a disruption. It has been tried in the industry, and there's no disruption.
Sir, last question, essentially on the Paint+, which you talked about, which I think every paint company is doing. How do you measure the efficacy of this? So in percentage terms of the premium or say, of your total, sales in deco, any number you can share, and for the market leader, how is this number? Every paint company talks about it, but without numbers, how do we know how is the needle moving and whether we are going in the right direction?
So I really don't know, because Paint+ cannot be compared with any other company. Paint+ is a positioning. So I think most of the companies are the positioning of the color. This is the positioning of the performance. What we are talking about is what other companies also could be talking about, the different products or maybe differentiated product. So that's, like, fine, it's, like, innovation. Every company is capable to do that. In our case, Paint+ is a platform where we say the, you know, the product can perform. And what are the important performance parameters? Some of the communication what I had shown. So we, we are coming out with new and new product, which are not available in the market. And as of now, I would not like to talk about the salience of that, but it is growing.
You can say it is-- it has now probably coming closer to higher single digit. So which two years back, you know, obviously we started from the zero. So how it helps is that you are away from the competition. Even if all companies are able to, do it's fine, then probably this industry is safeguarded in terms of getting into a direct fight, you know, because then you have a different products and you are able to create your own space.
Thank you.
He had asked multiple questions.
Yes.
Uh, Yeah, please start.
Hi, this is Jay Doshi from Kotak Institutional Equities. Profitability, 13 point.
Hello.
Yes. 13.8% EBITDA margin in FY 2024 is much lower than the previous levels that you had achieved in the past. Whereas when we look at other companies, they pretty much, you know, were in line with what they had delivered in the past in terms of peak margins. So could you give us some breakup between, you know, what is decorative margins for the full year and industrial margins, and where is the gap? Is decorative below pre-pandemic levels, or it's largely because of industrial still way below where you were earlier?
So you see our gross margin expansion, right? It's okay. If you look at the gross margin expansion is higher than the EBITDA margin expansion. If you have noticed, 500 basis points is the gross margin expansion. We have increased our marketing expenditure, and that's why if you look at the 13.8% in EBITDA, it is, we are, equal, equal kind of 55-45 decorative and industrial kind of company. In industrial, our profitability used to be very, very low till two years back. That was one challenge, which we have taken, that how do we come in the double-digit margin, and then we try to keep it stable, and, you know, fortunately, we are able to do that.
So I think, this is a healthy range, you know, because coming for the any B2B, company coming in the double-digit margin range, and then, you know, obviously in decorative there is a need to increase the marketing expenditure. So I think that is what we have done, and therefore to, to some extent, you will see that what gross margin expansion we have had, it is not reflecting the EBITDA. So with the other companies, comparing difficult, you know, because our portfolio is different, our mix is very, very different.
Understood. So industrial portfolio is now double-digit EBITDA margin, and you think this is a healthy band for that business?
Yes.
It cannot go back to the previous highs in the upcycle that we had seen maybe three, four years, four, five years back, right? So those were unsustainable levels.
In the previous years also, even if there was an increase in the margin, that was very, for very short-term period. It is not that we were able to sustain it. Sustainable margins are with me.
Understood. Thank you so much.
Sir?
Yes, please.
Ramesh Pochwani from Mehta & Vakil. First and foremost-
Last time, last time you told us you use our paint.
Yes. First and foremost, you have done an absolute U-turn in going digital. You have so wonderfully communicated through the digital media. It's, it's full marks to your branding and marketing team.
You have seen that?
Yes.
Okay.
Excellent. And as well as your very, very high decibel communication in all forms of media, particularly television, and during this IPL, with a wonderful brand ambassador in Ranveer Singh, with his energy, he has done a wonderful job. And you picked up what I... clue I gave you last year was, that you need to communicate vociferously, which you have done. Full marks to you and your team.
Thank you so much. You need to convince everybody that-
Yes. Yeah. In particular, digital media, because now everybody is carrying a mobile phone, and by default, you will be able to access, or one has access to your communication, which is not one, not two, but five, which you showed us even here. The thought which comes to my mind is: with this strong backing to your marketing team... I was sharing with your marketing team here that we have two big distributors in the place where I stay, and when I go to them, there is always an Asian Paints sales executive or a marketing executive standing behind the customer, just watching. He will not talk, or he will not interfere.
And a little push of this nature with your, maybe a junior level team member, at a distribution point, at a nodal point in certain pockets of a city like Mumbai, would help and do wonders. The mind share is, excellent. We have to enhance our market share, is my thought.
Thanks for the suggestion. We make a note, and definitely we'll work on it.
The second thing is, you go to any retailer or a dealer or a distributor, predominantly prevalent, the message coming from the opposite side is Asian Paints Royale. If you ask them Dulux, some of them have it, like a Velvet Touch, but if you ask for your paint, Impressions or British Paints, Berger Paints, nobody stocks these products. Now, where should I find— In case I have to buy your 20-liter Impressions white can, I was finding it difficult from where will I get it?
Yeah.
In a suburb like Andheri West in Mumbai.
Yeah. So one is that obviously we have to expand our distribution network-
Yeah.
which in Mumbai, last two years, we have done, but obviously the market is very big.
Very.
We are small, and then we are going gradually.
Yes.
The other is the service what we had introduced, which is communication is available through digital, where you know that, any consumer can reach out to the company directly.
Yes.
That's one way, you know, that
Yes. I would like to meet your marketing people here after we finish, and take a proper lead to go and pick up a can of 20 liters.
Most welcome.
Full marks to your digital initiative. I think it has done wonders. It is a sea change in the whole communication and connectivity with the consumer.
Thanks for the appreciation.
All the best, sir. All the best.
Hi, sir. This is Avi here from Macquarie.
Avi.
Hi, sir. Sir, I just wanted to, you know, get your thoughts on how, as we progress into, you know, as fourth quarter is kind of over, how do you look at the next year? You know, you had highlighted in the last meet that you would expect it to be volume-led. Is there any change in that expectation? How should we look at? Any color on that, sir?
So two parts of it. One, if you look at the industrial, where the, you know, passenger vehicle, as we said last year, the growth was 7%, the vehicle production. Two-wheeler is picking up. CV and tractor, they are like little lag. So I think in the automotive segment, maybe one segment will go a little lower, the other segment will go a little higher. So not much of change. I think automotive would stand. So maybe PV, SIAM is saying that 1%-2%, the production growth can go down, but again, then, you know, the growth will be led by SUV. Small cars will go down. So from the paint perspective, may not be much of a difference. Two-wheeler definitely is looking good. So, and we are, we have a great share in the two-wheelers also.
I think that's good. If you look at the high performance coating, the general industrial, which in the last three years continuously, it is doing well, and in last quarter, moderated, and mainly because of some reason, election. You know, because typically in the election period, it's a timing factor, where the CapEx actually goes down, the government refrains to come up with any policy decision, and the sentiments are also a little different. So I think once the elections are over, that cycle would be back. So one or two quarters, I think we'll see some moderation in that high performance coating and general industrial, and thereafter, it will definitely be back the way the country is, you know, spending money on the infrastructure. So that's about the industrial part.
In the decorative, because the raw material prices have gone down, so there's a price reduction which has happened, that's why we are saying it's a volume-led. But, typically, you know, you must have seen that last 20, 30 years, there's a clear relationship of the industry growth with the GDP growth. In fact, there was a time when it used to be one and a half times of the GDP growth, but, even in the situation when the prices come down, which is good, you know, when the price comes down, it will help the rural market also to pick up, so therefore, the volume growth would be outpacing the value growth.
But I think, if we just look at last year or maybe last quarter as aberration, because the last 40, 50 years has established fact that the paint industry has a very sound, direct, proportional relation with the GDP. So I think in the medium, medium term to the long- term, we definitely see that that relationship will be restored, and that, that's the situation it continues.
Sir, the performance on the decorative, which we saw in fourth quarter, double-digit volume growth, do you see that sustaining into the year, or is that something that could be at risk?
±2%, you can say, but definitely the volume growth we see.
Okay. And sir, the second bit I wanted to check is on the market share in the decorative segment. Now, you have, if I remember earlier, you highlighted you've gained market share. Could you update us how should we look at the decorative segment performance on a market share basis? How's that behaving? Is it on an overall now similar? Is the gap reducing? Are we still gaining share at a category level? Any updates on that, sir?
So if you remember that what we said, that there was a gap which we were having with the market growth, and first target, what we said is that we have to reduce this gap and come closer to the market. So I think some of the segment what I spoke about, new business, project business, we are higher than the market. Retail, the initiatives, as I said, that 30% of our channel will be deployed, we are seeing a better growth. Rural is a lag. So even if the rural market comes up, I think we touch the market growth.
So that's a salient factor, and I think our, definitely, you know that this journey, what we have traveled, and we have seen the progressive trend, that if the gap was double digit, then it came to single digit, then further narrowed down.... And since this progression continue, I think we are hopeful, that we'll be able to do better than the market.
Okay, so it's just a mixed thing right now. Is that how you would put it? That right now it's just because the rural salience for us is higher. Otherwise, in rural, like to like, we will be continuing to gain share. Is that how I should read this, sir?
Yeah, and I said, you know, the weak market for us or the weak areas for us are urban-
Okay.
-where all the models what we deployed, we have started seeing the results. So I think, you know, we are going to create a very balanced situation. And, rural, our market share also is very strong. So, so I think, you know, that, that will be maintained or we'll be able to grow it, but the market growth has to support, which we foresee that now some of the commentaries which are coming or the two-wheeler, what we have seen last two quarter, you know, we see that with some lag, it will start reflecting in the, decorative also.
Okay, sir. Thank you very much. That's all.
Thank you, Avi.
Thank you.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Pramod here from Unifi Capital. Just one question. You just mentioned that this time the marketing expenditure were higher. So if you can quantify that number, and since we have the 45, 55, you know, a mix between the B2B and the B2C, how as a percentage of the revenue we should compare this with the other, you know, decorative companies? Are we underspending? Are we overspending?
You're talking the marketing expenditure?
On the marketing expenditure.
So marketing expenditure, if you look at the decorative, we are over index. So we are spending aggressively if you compare with the, you know, other companies. So, in terms of percentage, how much would it be?
4, about, 4.5%, 5%.
4.5%-5% if you look at overall, but if you look at decorative, it will be higher.
Last year, we spent almost, like, INR 270 crore on the marketing, as per the numbers which we had. What was the number this year?
This year will be about more than, say, more than INR 350 crore.
Sorry?
More than INR 350 crore.
More than INR 350 crore.
More than INR 350 crores. Okay. And if you just... You know, in a previous question, you mentioned that, the previous margins, the peak margin, which we have achieved two, three years back, is not a sustainable margin. So how we should look at the sustainable margin on a, you know, on a neutral year? There will be volatility because of the RM cost and all. But how one should look at the, what can be the sustainable margin in a, in a, normal market scenario?
So if you're talking about the industrial, this is what we said, that in the B2B business, the double-digit margins are sustainable margins. So 10%-12% kind of margin is a sustainable margin. That is what we are looking at. We had, you know, low margins in the industrial two years back. Now, we are back in this particular range. I think the target and the endeavor for the company is, how do you maintain that out? In the decorative space, the margins can go up, but in the situation where number of players are there, you know, and there, there can be some increase in the intensity of the competition. To that an extent, maybe one year, one and a half year, you have to see that how does it play out.
In the longer run, definitely there's a potential of improvement in margin in case of decorative.
Okay. Lastly, on the, you know, the... If I look at the year-on-year number for the full year, there is a significant increase. Our volume increased by 10%+ . Revenue top line is because of the pricing, 4%+ , but other expenditure and the employee costs actually went up by 18%-19%. So are we seeing some, you know, moderation over there, or it will continue, like that?
So those expenses have gone up on account of some of the investments what we made. I think I talked about digital, you know, because that was a quite a good investment. The, in terms of team also, because of some of the initiatives what we have taken, whether it's in surveys or project or the wood finishes, the separate dedicated structure and team was required. So I think, mostly we have made that investment. Now it will be in line with the market growth, so that is how it has gone up. Once we start, the market starts showing a better growth, we go towards a better growth, so you can see some advantage coming out of it.
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, hi, this is Abhijeet Kundu from Antique. So I had two main questions. One was, in terms of geographies, how the performance has been? Because you have your core geographies and your non-core geographies. So, which geographies have done well for you? Because that is one part. And secondly, in terms of distribution expansion, because, you know, the leader has increased their distribution very aggressively in the last five years. We have seen that, in addition to the product extension that they had. So in terms of distribution, where are we right now, and what are the plans in terms of distribution expansion? These are the two questions for me.
The first question was?
First question was, in terms, how has been the performance across geographies, in the sense that North, South-
So we have done better in North and West. Probably, we have done better than market also in North and West, and South and East, we can say there was a lag. So in terms of geography, this is how it is. And, second, you said,
Second was in terms of, distribution expansion.
So distribution, there's a difference in our strategy, you know, because some people take a numeric reach as a strategy. Our strategy on the weighted reach, and also the distributions are not comparable, you know, because sometimes you look at the direct or indirect kind of distribution, while we look at the direct distribution. So typically, like, you know, when the number of players increase in the market, there's a possibility, like today, the cement companies are coming or other category companies are coming, and they start selling paint also to the cement dealers. So in one city today, there are 20 dealers who are selling paint, tomorrow, 40 dealers are selling paint. Number of consumer remains same, the demand remains same.
Then there is going to be a fight between dealer to dealer, rate undercutting, so therefore, how this thing is going to work, don't know. So ultimately, what we work on, the weighted reach. Weighted reach is that in the market, if there are 100 dealers, but only 30 dealers or 40 dealers contribute 70% of the market sales, so that's a weighted reach. So we follow that strategy. Otherwise, some companies follow a numeric strategy.
So yeah, so if, if you have to look at your own weighted dealers who are important for you-
We are expanding our distribution, and all these initiatives are also helping us gaining better acceptability, therefore, we are looking at double-digit expansion. Maybe as these initiatives are shaping up, maybe more expansion of the distribution network, but in the weighted reach category.
Particularly in which geographies? Because geography also is important.
It will be all geographies. So like North is a good market for us, we have a good share. East also, we have a good share. South is big for us. South we see as a opportunity. So that's a market, you know, that we have a large opportunity available. Some of the actions what we've taken, regional film, what we have shown, so there we have a good scope of increasing our distribution.
Okay. And in terms of... So you have now good amount of funds as well. So, how would be the capital allocation going ahead? Where would be the major CapEx spends?
So one would be a CapEx, like, last year, how much? INR 270?
Around 100.
Next year would be?
Next year would be to 300.
So next year would be more than 300. So we are increasing our CapEx. We are creating capacity, in the industrial and in the decorative also. That is one part. We had also given one special dividend. We are exploring business opportunities, and obviously, in this kind of situation, it is always better to keep extra cash with you. So this is how the capital allocation of that healthy cash what we have in our books.
At the ground level, any increase in trade margins or rebates that you have seen, I mean, across geographies?
Yes, there have been some increase in last two years in the trade margin, mainly because of some of the product where the competition has gone up, item like putty and all. There have been some increase in the trade margins.
Understood. Thanks. That's it from my side.
Hi. Sagar Doshi from Fintoo. So my first question is regarding, do we pay any brand fees or royalty to our parent? And, the next one would be, let's say, if I'm talking about volume growth, okay, in total, so let's say if the market leader is guiding something 10%-12%+, okay, over a medium to long- term, so are we also sure that we'll be able to maintain that kind of volume growth going ahead? And, then coming onto the pricing, okay, so we being, a strong player in the industrial segment, do we have pricing power out there, at least in that segment?
So I'll answer the second question first. See, in industrial, pricing power definitely, because we have multiple plants, and we are the only company who can service the requirement. Because today, if you see industrial customers, also car or two-wheeler, earlier, like, the white shade was very popular. Still it is popular, but there are lot of new shades. So earlier, we used to say that A category and C category, now that is gone. So whether you are supplying a paint for 100 cars or one car, it is equally important, because the customer need that one car, the color for that one car also. That's the capability what we have. In case of any risk which happens with any of the plant, we can, you know, service from. Our customer does not keep the inventory, we supply.
And, it's like, you know, just-in-time kind of supply, what we give to the industrial customer. And the track record is that never because of this lack of service, any of the line is stopped at the customer end. So that's kind of service, we have, you know, been able to build. The technology, what I spoke about, that we are looking at newer and newer technology, where the customer also get the benefit. Sometimes the benefit is indirect, that, if you are providing tin-free CED, low baking time, there is advantage in terms of not only price, but, it's like, you know, when they save the energy, so there is an indirect cost saving, which we are able to demonstrate, to the customer. So your question is that, do we have the pricing power in industrial?
Definitely, we have the pricing power in industrial. And, you know, because of the technology, because of the services, obviously, there we work with the relation. It doesn't happen like in the consumer market, that's, you know, somebody takes the decision and then you follow. But all this strength and all this, in over a period of time, has demonstrated, you know, that, you know, because of these reasons, because of these strengths, we do have the pricing power in industrial. And he's talking about the first question on this, the royalty.
Royalty. Royalty will kind, you know, it's royalty, right?
Royalty to the parent company.
Yeah, royalty to parent company, yes, it is there. It is specifically for certain automotive products which we have got from Kansai Paint. You know, that will continue, and that percentage is around 3% of the net sales for such products.
So, if I take the total revenue, what would be the percentage?
Total?
Total revenue.
The percentage of that-
Total revenue, it's very, very insignificant, you know, because if it's not paid on all the products, because we have our own-
It's only on the specific product, the percentage is very low.
Very, very small. It's less than maybe 5%, less than 5%.
Okay.
Much less than that.
Okay. And on the volume growth side?
As we said that, you know, the industry volume growth last year also 8%-10%, ±2%. So whatever growth, I think that's established now, as I said, GDP or the volume growth, so that's what we are expecting, that it could be higher single digit. Difficult to predict, but definitely in that range, 8%-10% volume growth would be there.
Okay. Thank you.
Mic?
Yeah, can you give some color on your CapEx? Because if I see the normal CapEx is from more from INR 88 crore to INR 112 crore, and now INR 167 crore, so, you know, something very unexpected, significant rise are coming in normal. So what is the nature, and does it enhances the capacity, or does it just for the maintenance? That's the one question. And you said, next year, if I clarify, it's likely to be INR 300 crore, if you can give some breakup over that. And the related question is, the post Vizag and other expansion completion in this year, what would be the capacity in terms of liter for moving from 611? Thank you.
So as far as CapEx is concerned, the pro, you know, we have got two big projects which will be coming up in the coming year, right, 2024, 2025. One is the expand new greenfield plant at Vizag, and another at brownfield expansion at Jainpur, that is. So that itself will be a major project expenditure that we'll be incurring during the year, right? Apart from that, the normal CapEx generally pertains to our IT infrastructure, CCM machines, and some, some you know, some expansion, not some expansion, some additions in some of the plants. So that is that INR 100 or INR 150 crores that we are talking, the normal expenditure.
That trend will remain 160-
Yeah, that trend will remain, yeah.
Because-
Now we've got 6 big plants, right, plus these 2 coming, so that keep on, that addition will keep coming.
Out of 300, almost 200 will go there, and 100 will go for Vizag and Jainpur.
Yeah, approximately.
What will be the capacity post Jainpur and Vizag?
How much, Jason?
I think, I think we are increasing the decorative capacity by around 25%-30%. So that will go up.
In the industrial area, it is more in the area of resins and backward integration. Resin capacity we are expanding.
So, what will be the figure 611 will move to, if we can call?
6, around 700 plus.
700+.
700. Thank you.
Sir, in automotive paints, we are doing almost 80% CapEx. So do we do anything B2C, or it's only B2B?
CapEx? Yeah.
Automotive paint. Automotive paints, yeah.
There's no, I didn't understand this question.
You're saying 80% CapEx you're doing in automotive paint. INR 50 crore of CapEx.
No, no, this, this expansion is basically on decorative. What you have mentioned is on Vizag and Jainpur.
Are you talking about the INR 50 crore expense?
Yeah, INR 50 crore, sir.
That is basically a resin capacity, which we are expanding, which is for automotive.
Automotive.
Yeah, this is only for automotive.
It will be increasing capacity by 80% approximately. Do we do in automotive B2C or only B2B? Only B2B.
B2B, B2B.
Not to garage or something like that? No, nothing like that. Thank you.
Hello, sir. My name is Vimal Modi. I'm an investor. I have three questions. One is this, small expansion, I mean, INR 50 crore worth of expansion we are doing, we just announced. What will be the impact on top line as well as bottom line? Shall I ask all the three together?
Yeah.
Then, next, point is, you said about paint to Paint+, product to services, and primary to secondary and all that. Do you have any, like, projection in terms of, the ratio of those plus with the main, business? That is my second question. And, you talked about, three hundred crore worth of expansion in coming years, right? CapEx, I mean. So even after doing that, we are going to have roughly 1,100, 1,200 worth of cash in the balance sheet or even more than that, I don't... I couldn't reconcile the figures. So do we have any plans like, buyback of shares or rewarding with, a large dividend, one-time dividend? If not that, what ideas do you have for that? Thank you, sir.
So first, this INR 50 crore expansion of the resin, it's a, you know, continuity of the business also, because this is our backward integration. We create resin, which is used in paint. Now, our capacity is coming to peak there, so therefore, we have to create this new capacity. If we do not create this new capacity, then we have to buy from outside, and therefore, the advantage in terms of that you make in-house, so you get advantage in terms of your profitability in the industrial. So it will not have because, you know, in industrial, our market share is high, we are growing good, and we are seeing next three years for five years, trend also will remain good, so therefore, we need to create this capacity.
Second question, what you are saying, the ratios of primary to secondary and the paint to Paint+ or the product to services. So as of now, we don't want to talk much about the numbers, but I can share with you, like in the primary to secondary, you know, the visibility to us two year back was zero. Now, at least 20% of our sale, we are able to track. That whatever we are selling to the market, the 20% secondary we are able to track, and every year it is going up. So, definitely next few years, we would see that more than 50%-60% of sale we are able to track that, how the secondary movement is happening. The product to services, the services what we are talking about, just started last 1 year.
Good traction, less than 5%, but it's still a good traction. But based on the consumer understanding, what we feel that next three years, five years' time, it has a potential to go up to 10%. Same in the new business and the project business. The project business, earlier used to contribute 5%-7%, I'm talking five years. Now, for the industry, it contribute 15%. We were weaker there. When we started, we were around 5%-6%. Now, every year, we are able to increase our salience. We are still less than 10%, but growing faster there. The third question you said is, CapEx, INR 300, right?
Usage, utilization of-
Utilization, utilization.
Utilization of cash that I spoke about, the one that, this capacity creation. The second is, business opportunity, you know, we'll be able to evaluate. And the third is a special dividend, which we have already announced. And, fourth is that in this competitive scenario, it is good for the company to keep, higher cash in the books.
I mean, just INR 300 crore worth of expansion we have, we are talking about, and we have INR 1,200 crore plus.
So that is one. The second, I'm talking about the special dividend what we had given. And then obviously, when you are evaluating the opportunities, you have to park money for that particular thing.
No concrete usage ideas.
We cannot, we cannot share as of now.
Sir, can you share some ideas on the D2C potential, our plans, I mean, for decorative?
D2C?
Direct to customer. Are we planning to, I mean, aggressively enter?
Direct to customer is through the services, because the services are directly to the customers. And there, you know, if we see 2023, 2024 against 2022, 2023, whatever business we have done in 2022, 2023, and 2024, it is more than double. What we are looking at even in the coming year would be that. So percentage as of now is low, but in terms of expansion, it is higher. And that D2C is not, though we are now there in 250+ cities, but now we have understood that, you know, from which cities the business is coming more. So if you go at the city level, today we have the understanding that in, say, top 50 cities, how much business is going to come from D2, D2C.
So it is market by market, but top 50 towns, it will be very large, but overall also, it is growing very fast. And I feel that next five years, this business will grow very, very fast, and that's why we are prepared to encash on that particular opportunity. And to answer your question on buyback, there is no plan to buyback.
Your mic there.
Yeah. Hi, sir, this is Archana Menon from Morgan Stanley. Sir, two questions from me. Firstly, on the pricing side, last time you had mentioned that you had taken a 3% odd price cut in the decorative segment. Have you also taken something similar on the industrial side, especially in the automotive segment? And the second question, again, was on the automotive side. While you are market leaders, could you share some insights on what your market share is currently, and how has it been trending, especially given that the EV penetration is on the rise?
Market share of?
Automotive.
Automotive.
Okay. What was the first question?
Market share of automotive.
But before that?
On the pricing, sir.
Pricing, yeah. The pricing dip, what we have taken in decorative. In industrial, it is less. Yeah, selectively, yes, but it, it is less because typically in industrial, what happens is the. It's a cycle. It takes a lot of time, and today also we believe that, because of geopolitical situation, the volatility in crude and the forex, the visibility for next three months, six months, is still not very clear. So we don't get into the price increase or reduction till we are 100% clear about the visibility of six months or one year of time. Market share in automotive, specifically if you're talking about, it is in the range of 58%-60%.
Hi, sir, this is Mihir here from Nomura.
Yes, Mihir.
I wanted to ask a question firstly on the mix that is, has been negative, or the difference between the volume and the value growth. Do we expect the mix to deteriorate further, given rural is expected to come back, growth in rural, and you're also getting into the economy side in the Paint+ category? So does that, does that impact the mix further, and will it pressure overall revenue growth, or you expect the mix to remain stable?
Definitely no deterioration. It can be same or it can be better. It cannot be deteriorate. It cannot deteriorate.
Understood, sir. So secondly, I wanted to check on tinting machines. Given that the competitor that is likely to have a different type of a tinting machine, which is 40% lower in size, any plans for you to change your tinting machines, in case if the dealer thinks about, you know, replacing or-
No, that's not the reality. So we already have the machine which is smaller only. So in the earlier days, because we, I think, launched machine in probably 1998 or 1999.
1999.
First 10, 15 years, whatever machines we have, those are bigger machine. Last five years, machine, whatever we are giving, those are smaller machine. There's hardly any difference with the new machine and our machine. Maybe very hardly any difference.
Understood. Sir, another question on dealers, actually. The, you know, the competitive intensity is largely play out in the dealer space, because it seems that the product pricing is broadly similar to all the paint players. There is no major price differentiation apart from the-
So this-
Initial discount, initial discount that they are giving, which is probably an introductory. So that's not going to be the place of, you know, any price cuts or price wars that was expected. That is not happening at this point of time.
No.
Largely the competition intensity will play out in the dealer end, and you said that probably rebates have gone a little bit up, but no material change in rebate structure is also being visible at this point of time.
Yes.
Sir, can you give some color on your distribution and dealer strength, basically? How many of them or what portion of them would be dedicated to you, who you are confident that will not deviate from your, you know, your franchisee? And, you know, probably there will be some who are aggregators, which will probably... You know, if they are stocking two, three brands, they may think about getting rid of one tinting machine. Any color that you can share, I mean, on that front, where you are very strong in certain cohorts, what percentage that would be?
So roughly, I can tell you that, you know, 25% of our network is exclusive. They are quite loyal, so they will definitely remain with us. Then, rest, rest of the distribution, we see that how many dealers are keeping two brand, three brand, four brand. So even in the two brand, our counter share would be very high. So again, loyalty would be very, very high. So there is some percentage, which is 25%, 30% of the network, which keep three brand, four brand, and they are like you know, multi-branded dealer. And so, therefore, they want to see that even if the new company is coming, let us, you know, try it, try it out. But there also, it is not a shift. It is like today maybe you are selling 100 liter, you are dividing in three brand.
You know, maybe tomorrow you want to divide in the four brand and give 2%, 3% share to the four brand, and then see, you know, how it happens. So that is how, you know, it pans out. So that way, if you see 70%-75% of network, which is exclusive or two brand or up to three brand, there, you know, the shift doesn't happen. 25% who are very multi-branded, there are—they can give some space back.
Brilliant. So basically, the fear of rising competitive intensity is kind of not as fearful as expected, because you already have a very strong foothold in your key distributor reach-
Mm.
Which are relatively very loyal, and, you know, losses from there would largely be...
I think enough number of players have entered the market, and the market model 10, 15 years back, the companies who were entering paint industry, they were not getting the success. Now, the good part is in the last 10 years, whatever companies have entered, they've created their space. So that is good. But if you see last 10 year, what is the change? Because if the industry grows at the rate of 7%, 8%, 10% every year, which is INR 5,000-INR 7,000 crore of growth, in that some part, 500, 600, goes to the new player. And as I said that when the number of player increase, over a medium term, definitely it help industry growth to go up. Whether it is from informal to formal or the per capita itself, you know, that people will start rural models.
So I think it will help the growth, and the existing companies will find that, you know, because it is happening gradually, it cannot happen overnight. It is happening gradually. It will not be seen. But today, if I have to comment that 10 years back, if there are four players, today there are eight players, if you compare with the 10 years back, obviously the market is reset. Everybody has taken 1%, 2%, 3%. Some share they have taken. But whether it has impacted the existing company? No. You know, there are more number of consumer, market shares are getting reset, but over a period of time. So if the business... Ultimately, what is important for the business is that I need to grow in the top line, I need to grow on the bottom line.
As long as that opportunity is available, you know, and we keep encashing on that opportunity, it is fine for the business.
Brilliant, sir. Sir, last question, repeated question on margins, actually. You know, given in the deco part of the business, Paint+ salience is increasing 150 basis points, probably to high single digits, you said it's increased. So margins are better out there. Even in the auto and industrial, you're exiting the lower margins, you are entering into the higher margins. Structurally, anything, any steps that you are taking ideally are margin accretive steps. So how should... Well, you know, I mean, so that's point number one. So that trend will ideally continue. So, you know, I was probably I felt your comments a little more conservative on margin improvement side, because these trends will continue. So, so maybe, you know, one comment on that and one more follow-up on margins.
No, one is the this, it's the leverage, you know, that when we are increasing premiumization, obviously it is helping the margin. But then it also help you to play out in the market. So if we are doing better in the premium products, and for example, if I talk about putty or there are some other products which are very competitive, so even if you want to play out in those segments, okay, the margin does not get impacted, I'm just saying. Because if we don't do that, and then you want to play in the lower end also, because that's also the market, tomorrow the rural market picks up, the growth is coming from the economy product, you would like to encash on that.
I think the positive way you can see it is that since those initiatives are working, even if you invest, because at the end of the day, we are not saying that we are going to play only value game. Ultimately, it will be a volume game also. So core business, what is there? You are in a position, in this situation, if the competition is there, in case if you have to fight it out, so you have the leverage to play in that market without affecting your margins. If it doesn't happen, then obviously the margin will improve.
Got it. And finally, on margins again, no juice left from, you know, the margin improvement historically, or there is still a little bit of juice left, you know, when we were trying to-
How can we make this statement? There is always a juice.
Okay. Got it. Fair enough point, sir. Thank you very much, and wishing you all the very best.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah. Hi, this is Amnish from PL. So my question is regarding the market share in the decoratives. So what has been the trend in the market share in the current year and if I take, say, last couple of years?
Last couple of years, we were losing market share. This, this year, we will be very close to the market. So that is how, you know, the improvement what we are talking about, because in between two, two and half years, we had a loss of market share. Now we are able to almost arrest it or very, very close to the market growth.
So it means that 10% market share, which you indicated, is more or less what you had 12 months back?
Yeah, you can say that.
Okay. My second question is on the automotive. What is the ratio of automotive... Sorry, on the industrial and deco, what is the ratio now?
Generally, we talk about 55-45, but because this year, 2023-2024, the growth of industrial is better, some change, maybe 55 has gone down to a little extent and 45 has little gone up.
Okay. And in particular, the automotive used to be a very dominant part of the industrial, but now looking at the entire infrastructure growth, railways, flyovers, bridges coming up, so has that ratio changed? And how much are the Japanese companies now accounting for as a proportion of our total automotive paints?
So Japanese contribution to our total automotive sale, 60%. Amrit, Japanese contribution to our total automotive sale were now 60%? 55%-60% would be the contribution. And what was the other question?
The other question was that what is now the proportion of your, non-auto in the total industrials?
Total industrial? So it has gone up. Generally, earlier it was within the industrial, 70% was automotive and 30% was non. But that 30% is going up now because that market size has become large. In fact, based on the growth, what we have seen last two, three years, I think next two, three years, the size would be equivalent to the automotive market. And there, obviously, we have a scope and the opportunity, the growth prospect to keep increasing.
Does this change in mix in the industrial side, moving away from auto to more on the general industrial, so would it be margin accretive? Because I perceive auto companies have more bargaining power.
Margins are similar in, whether automotive or this particular part. And as I said earlier, that bargaining power is fine, but I think, the time has come now where, we talk about technology, the other advantages, and I think it's quite a balanced situation. It is not that bargaining power takes you to a situation where you work on the non-acceptable margins. So business have to be remunerative, and therefore, if we have a target margin, you know, I think we work on that, because if the business is not remunerative, then what is the attraction to do a business? I think it has come to that level. So bargaining power is there. That's why probably in the B2B business, you don't see, margins like decorative.
But I'm saying whatever right margin is there for the B2B business, that margin is there, and I think the customers are also able to understand that. Today, in fact, most of our customers, you'll be surprised to know, that they want to deal with these players who are having a decent margins. So sometime today, when we discuss with the customer, they also give us the target of the margins. So they may do a bargaining, but they also say that you have to operate in this kind of range so that you are a sustainable, growing company.
So you indicated industrial margins between, say, 10%-12%, kind of, you can say, level. So is there any scope or the juice left there to increase the margins or profitability?
Yes, definitely. So premium is the scope, the new technology is the scope. Definitely there is a scope. But generally, like, based on our past experience, we say these are sustainable margins, but as a company, as a people, we always work on this, and if your question is whether juice available, yes, juice is available.
Okay, thanks a lot, sir.
Hi, this is Nikunj Doshi from Bay Capital. Just wanted to understand this infrastructure and projects business. Is it through direct selling or through distributors that we are selling to these projects?
The project business, we are selling through the project dealers. They are dealers only, but they are a specified project dealers whose job is basically to fund.
Mm.
You know, they sell to the builders, contractors, and architects. So we sell through them because our responsibility is to provide the service to the site.
Mm.
Their responsibility is to collect the money.
Mm-hmm. So we don't take risk on the, collection risk on the-
No, no.
Right. Okay.
But having said that, some amount of very large project we do direct also, where there's payment risk is not there.
Vande Bharat, you mentioned, and Bullet Train also, project you mentioned, so we are already supplying or we got-
Vande Bharat, we are supplying the, this harbor, you know, we are supplying.
Okay.
Yeah. Already we have supplied.
Is this a large opportunity for us going forward, or it's going to be...?
Yes, large opportunity.
And, in-
If you see that traditionally, the business in the railway used to be low-end, now it is high-end.
Mm.
As the Vande Bharat, tomorrow bullet will come.
Mm.
The railway, the entire thing is going to change completely.
Mm.
Earlier, they used to talk about very low alkyd-based paint. Now we are talking about high-end polyurethane, epoxy paints.
Paints for EV, is there a special kind of a paint or is the same car paint, which is used for EV also?
Same, same.
Same. There's no technology difference for EVs or anything?
Some difference will come in the batteries and, you know, there could be some opportunity inside the battery and those kind of opportunity there.
Mm.
But otherwise, the substrate is same.
Okay.
Therefore, the paint is also same.
Okay. Thank you.
Yes.
See, last time you had said on the digital lead system that our conversion rate had went up from 1%-2% to almost 7-8%, and you closed the year by year-end at 10%. Any improvement over there, how the lead system is working now? How much is conversion happening?
So the lead system is basically for the services pass, paint as a service, and they now are converting higher than 10%, which is the benchmark in the industry. Generally, you target more than 10% conversion. We have reached to that level.
Okay. And on the direct distribution model, also, you had commented something earlier on the alternative distribution model and the direct distribution model, and you had actually, I think on the low-end side, we started some distribution channel. So any development or any update on that side?
Yeah, we are working. So these are like smaller markets, the rural markets, where we find directly going difficult. So there we have appointed distributors to cater to those markets. We are making progress on that.
So any significant, you know, contribution coming from that, or it's still very early days to say anything...?
Early days to talk about number, but mature days to talk about that it is picking up very fast.
Yeah. Thanks.
I think... I hope the questions are-
Any more questions?
No.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks for attending, and it was great interacting with you.
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