Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Shaily Engineering Plastics Limited Q1 FY 2025 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen -only mode, there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to the Managing Director of Shaily Engineering Plastics Limited, Mr. Amit Sanghvi. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you very much. Good evening and a very warm welcome to all the participants who report to the investor call of Shaily Engineering Plastics. I have with me Mr. Sanjay Shah, our Chief Strategy Officer and SGA, our investor relations advisors. I hope you've had a look at our investor presentation that is uploaded on our website and the stock exchange. Let me start by giving you some highlights on the operational performance. Despite a challenging situation globally, we delivered a robust top-line growth of 14% to INR 179 crore in Q1 FY 2025, have improved our gross margins and EBITDA margins, which stand at 42.1% and 20.1% respectively. During quarter one FY 2025, in the Consumer segment, we've been awarded business confirmations for two new FMCG products, which are currently under development. In the Healthcare segment, we've entered into new contracts to develop two new pen injectors.
In the Industrial segment, we have business confirmations to manufacture two components for an automotive customer. Three years into operations, Shaily U.K. has grown quite well, and we are now building capabilities, including human factors engineering, to cater to big pharma. The most significant update for the quarter is that we have received purchase orders for one of our pen injectors to the tune of INR 10 million per year. Looking ahead, our focus is on expanding our horizons to include contract manufacturing for medical devices, products featuring our intellectual property and specialized packaging or delivery solutions. The dedicated efforts invested in advancing our injection system platforms are beginning to show good outcomes. Within this industry, our business scope is vast, as we have mentioned in the past before, and we remain committed to ongoing growth.
We have adopted a scalable approach that will enable us to increase our revenues at a much faster pace over the next five years, we plan to increase our own IP contribution going forward. That is all from my side. I shall now hand over the call to Mr. Sanjay Shah to give you the operating and financial highlights. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Amit. Good evening, everyone. I shall share with you the highlights of our operational and financial performance of Q1 FY 2025. Following which happy to respond to your queries. During the quarter, we processed 5,902 tons of polymers as against 5,822 tons in Q1 FY 2024. Machine utilization rate was around 39% in Q1 FY 2025. We expect this to increase in the coming years. Exports during Q1 FY 2025 stood at around 80% of revenue. Coming to consolidated results highlights. Revenues stood at INR 179.4 crore during Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 157.3 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 14%. EBITDA stood at INR 36.1 crore during Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 27.7 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 31% year-on-year. EBITDA margin stood at 20.1% for Q1 FY 2025, an increase of 250 basis points over Q1 last year.
PAT stood at INR 17.4 crore during Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 12.6 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 38% year-on-year. PAT margin stood at 9.7%, an increase of 170 basis points over Q1 last year. Cash PAT for Q1 FY 2025 was reported at INR 27.6 crore as compared to INR 20.8 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 33% year-on-year. Our ROCE and ROE stood at 20.7% and 15.6% respectively as on 30th June 2024. Again, the growth has been achieved with different use of capital. Now coming to consolidated segmenting revenue breakup. In the Consumer segment, revenues stood at INR 132.8 crore in Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 120.8 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 10%. In the Healthcare segment, revenues stood at INR 27.4 crore in Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 22.7 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 21%.
In the Industrial segment, our revenues stood at INR 19.2 crore in Q1 FY 2025 as compared to INR 13.9 crore during Q1 FY 2024, a growth of 38%. This is all from our side. We can now open the floor for Q&A.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question -and -answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec. Please go ahead, sir.
Okay. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. First is congratulations on the purchase order for 10 million pens. Would it be possible for you to provide some more specifics over here?
The 10 million pen purchase order is for supply for the insulin market.
Okay. What's the duration for this? Is it over a year?
It's over a year. It will get supplied over a period of this year and also spill over into the next year.
Okay. I understand, I think last year we did around 11 million-1 2 million pens. Is that number right?
Yeah. Yes.
Right. How should we look at this number, including this particular purchase order?
Well, I think given the current capacities we have, we should be able to fulfill somewhere around 60% of the order, 60%-70% of the order this year, and the balance in the following year.
Right. My question, Amit, was, are we looking at, say, 11 million- 12 million plus say around 6 million-7 million? Looking at around 17 million- 18 million pens this year, or could it be substantially higher than this?
No, no, 17 million is correct. That's also what we said during the last earnings call.
Okay. That helps. Would it be possible for you to quantify what would be the average pricing when we put out of sale in the market?
No. Sorry, Ritesh.
Okay. No worries.
It varies very significantly between different therapies.
Sure. My second question is on semaglutide. I understand for tirzepatide, I think we were looking at NCE-1 filing sometime in late 2026. Is there any specific update over here? By when do we plan to start supplies? Any color over here, please?
We plan to start supplies end of this year, so either December or January the following year. We've just completed our, what do you call it? Our multi-cavity tooling program and the assembly assets. Assembly assets and the new tools will all be qualified to start production in September 2024, which will then go through the design verification process over the next three months. We plan to start supplies in December or January 2025.
Okay. By when do we expect the customers to have approval so that we can say that it's fully commercialized?
Tirzepatide has a patent expiry of early as 2036, so I don't see customers starting to go into the market before 2036.
Okay. When we say there will be some markets.
There will be some markets as early as 2030, but I think most will open up in 2036.
Okay. Just a few related questions. When we say we are supplying to the customers, are we looking at generic companies over here, or is it potentially innovators or any of the contract manufacturing companies?
We look at contract manufacturers. We're talking about generics, and we're also talking about exceptionally large generics. With molecules like tirzepatide, you also have companies that have a mixed model. They do generic business as well as they're also innovators. You'd have a whole range of pharma for tirzepatide and semaglutide.
Okay. Lastly, on the device, just wanted to understand, I think, in the past, you have indicated around spring-driven devices, which is quite unique to us. Wanted to get a sense, what percentage of the market would that be, and how different is this particular device as compared to what's already in the marketplace?
I think every single pen on the market, except Novo's FlexTouch and Shaily's Neo, are mechanical pens. Mechanical pens, when you dial the dose, you have a button and a mechanism that extends out of the pen, which you then have to manually push back in to deliver a dose. With the spring-driven pen, when you dial, there's no extension. Upon dialing, the force is stored into a spring, and a press of a button releases that force to deliver the drug.
Okay, sure. Just last question. Are there any other manufacturers who also have spring-based devices?
No. None that can be marketed globally like ours. None that don't have IP challenges. I think ours would be the only device which is free of infringement or potential infringement.
Okay. That's fine. Can I squeeze in one last question?
Yep.
I think you had indicated we have around 22, 23 active projects. You had given a broad spread between lira, sema, tirzep, and teri. Is it possible to give some timelines around each of the buckets?
So, liraglutide is launched on approval now. There's no IP hurdle at this moment. teriparatide is also launched on approval. teriparatide, we're looking at EU and North America launch in the current year. For semaglutide, you'll see the first markets being launched in 2026, which will be Brazil, India, Canada, potentially China. Then the majority of the regulated markets will see launch in I mean, you will see uptake from Shaily in 2029, but launch in 2030.
Tirzep?
Tirzep, like I said, 2030-2036. It's a difficult timeframe to predict right now. If you were to just go by IP expiry, I think 2036 is the earliest launch.
Sure. This is quite useful. Thank you so much. I'll join back in queue . All the very best.
Thanks.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Nirali Gopani from Unique PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. From FY 2024, we have started mentioning all the order wins every quarter. Does Q1 of FY 2025 have any contribution of revenue from those orders?
No. Q1 FY 2025 does not have contribution from the orders we mentioned in our earlier speech right now.
Okay. Because if I sum up all the orders, it is more than INR 180 crore-INR 200 crore of orders, wherever you have specified the numbers. If I understand correct, from Q2, the revenue growth should be much higher than this 13% that we saw in Q1. Not any number, but directionally, yes?
Go ahead, Sanjay.
Yeah. Nirali, I think we wouldn't want you guys to look at Shaily more from a quarter-on-quarter basis. You should probably look at more on a year-on-year basis. I think whatever we've indicated in terms of year-on-year growth, we are quite confident of delivering to that growth number.
The 20%, 25% which you have mentioned, right?
No, on the Healthcare we have said a higher growth number, if you look at the transcripts.
No, I'm talking about on a consolidated basis.
We've not talked about.
[inaudible]
We actually talked about what we will grow on the Healthcare space in the fourth quarter.
Okay. Sir, just to confirm this number, the order wins are roughly about INR 180 crore, right? Wherever you have specified the numbers, and there are places where you have not specified the numbers. Because INR 100 crore is only from home furnishing, right?
Right.
In Q4 and Q1, we have announced orders for knobs. Are they for GE or any new customer?
They are for an existing customer. This is what we have talked about.
Okay. This is additional than that INR 40 crore which we had announced in Q1 of FY 2024?
Yes.
Perfect. We've also announced a lot of orders for pen injectors in FY 2024. Do we see any revenue contribution in FY 2025 from those orders? I know you have just mentioned.
Your platform fees coming in, and we will see some of the revenue coming in from when we make SARs supplies also.
Perfect. That's it. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Anant Jain from HNI. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. The first question is on this pen needle device. Is this our own IP or is it an IP that you have from other companies?
No, it's our own IP.
Congratulations on that. The second question that I have is, in the domestic, what we are seeing is a bit of degrowth. Is it like we used to do around INR 45 crore every quarter and we've seen a degrowth this quarter. Also on a year-over-year basis, I think we are either flat or we have gone down by a few crore. Any reason for that, and how do you see the trend here?
See the domestic business, if I were to look at from an overall full year perspective, I think the domestic business will also grow. Quarter-on-quarter, there could be some areas where some dispatches have not happened or some dispatches have been delayed. I think on a year-on-year basis, you will see the domestic business grow.
Okay, great. The third question is, what I understand is for every auto injector that we supply, at least for the projects that we have, we have 25 projects right now. We supply three exhibit batches. That is what my understanding is. The companies with which we partner actually look for consistency across these three batches. Is that a fair understanding? That's the first thing. Secondly, in these batches, out of these 25 projects, for how many have we supplied at least one exhibit batch? What is the approximate quantity per exhibit batch?
A typical exhibit batch per variant of the molecule will be essentially what we call three PQ batches. Each PQ batch will be at least 10,000 pens. Per variant, we would be supplying about 30,000 pens to a customer. For example, semaglutide, it has three or four strengths depending on which market you look at. We would then be supplying anywhere between 90,000- 120,000 pens per customer. And of course, that's just the exhibit batch. You then have batches that you do for operational qualification, for design verification, for final assembly trials, et cetera.
Out of these 25 projects. Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah. To answer your first question, Anant.
Yeah.
When we supply a product the first time, it has to be three PQ batches. We cannot supply without establishing the consistent performance of the product, which can only be done after you've done three PQ batches and design verification.
Okay. Out of the 25 projects, for how many have we supplied exhibit batches already?
I think all exhibit batches on teriparatide, on liraglutide, most on semaglutide Ozempic have been supplied. Now is also the start of semaglutide Wegovy, which is the weight loss version of the molecule.
Oh, that's nice because-
We are starting the launch version of the devices.
Okay. When do we expect our first regulated market launch? Is it going to be in Q2 or Q3? Any idea on that?
Sometime this year for teriparatide and potentially liraglutide.
We expect liraglutide launch also this year. Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah.
On these-
We have commercial orders to manufacture. Launch could happen next year, early next year, maybe end of this year. Teri, we are more confident on regulated market launch in the current year.
In case of lira, is it both the variants?
Lira is launch on approval. If a customer has filed both variants, which is Victoza and Saxenda, then the launch would happen for both variants.
We have devices. Is it the same device for Victoza and Saxenda, or are they different devices? I would assume they are different devices.
They're different devices. The Saxenda device is a spring-driven device, and the Victoza device is the mechanical pen.
Okay. Great. All of that is a wonderful update. Just two more questions, if I can sneak in. For Shaily U.K., as of now, from how many projects are we getting our revenues from, and how many additional projects will start contributing to Shaily U.K. this year?
Pipeline for the current year is quite strong, I would say. We are looking at growing Shaily U.K. also at upwards of 35%-45%. With the development projects, there is always a little, I wouldn't say lack of clarity, but you got to be careful when you commit timelines and on revenue, at least. Because project spill-over can happen very easily. I think every project we have in Shaily U.K. generates revenue except maybe two which are not, I wouldn't call them fully active projects. But they are creation of technology that we have started on two new types of drug delivery devices, which are not generating revenue. But every other active project we have generates revenue.
Okay, great. I will wait in the queue. I have more questions.
Sure. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Kumar Saumya from Ambit Capital. Please go ahead.
Good evening. Just one question more from my side, sir. What are the growth opportunities that we're looking at outside our current product basket? For example, are we looking into electronics? Are we looking into mobile phones? If you could throw some light on this.
Could you repeat your question? Your line is not clear.
Yes, I had a question. What are the product segments or product groups that we're looking at outside our current product basket? Are we looking into electronics, mobile phones, something like that? Hello?
We are looking at consumer electronics, again, I think we're at very initial stages of evaluating the business. We're talking to several potential customers in the industry. Too early to comment on it right now.
Sure, sir. Thank you. Thank you for this.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Aman Vij from Astute Investment Management. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. My first question is, three of the projects, basically home furnishing, INR 50 crore; pharma new applicator, INR 35 crore, and then the knob business around INR 40 crore. These three were expected to start in Q2, as per the initial communication. Any of the projects which is delayed, or all of them will start in Q2?
All of these projects, which we talked about, will start in Q2.
Okay. That is it. On the home furnishings side, sir, last year it was a little sluggish. Demand was an issue from Europe, I believe. If you can talk about both on carbon steel as well as the normal plastic business, how is the demand? Is it back to the initial levels? Because we were expecting good ramp up last year, but because of demand issues, we could not. Can we see the full recovery happening this year, both on carbon steel and plastics, if you can talk about it?
Sure. I believe that Europe is out of its problems. You're not seeing a demand recovery coming up in Europe. You will see some growth in the business, essentially on account of new projects which we have taken on. In carbon steel, we have taken on three new projects which we will be commercializing between Q2 and Q3, essentially a large part of it in Q3. You will see that ramp up happening once these projects get commercialized. We are also bidding for new projects in every bit, and hope to add businesses before the end of the current calendar year.
Sure. Combined for the plastic divisions individually and for carbon steel, do we see good growth this year?
We see growth on both these segments.
Sure. On the Healthcare side, sir, if you can talk about that, we were talking about 50% volume growth. Q1, maybe, did we see this kind of volume growth or is it back ended, it will start in maybe Q2 or Q3 only?
No. Our outlook for Q1 was also to the tune of, I'd say, of course it will be a little bit more back ended for sure, but the order book was quite strong. We did have a technical engineering challenge in Q1 with one of our products, which got resolved, and the supplies have already been made in Q2 for that particular product.
Okay. Q2 onwards, we will see a much stronger growth compared to what we have seen in Q1.
For Healthcare, yes.
Sure. That helps. Sir, on the two new projects which we have won, if you can talk about which is the therapy, these two platforms, two new projects in Healthcare.
The therapy remains the one is a lanreotide, second is semaglutide .
Okay, sure. And thirdly , we were expecting more customers. Will we see that in next one, two quarters?
Yes. Absolutely.
Sure, sir. For now, these are the questions. I will get back in the queue. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Sanjay Kumar from ithought PMS. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. I have a bunch of questions. First, how does the relationship work with the CDMO fill finish partner? I spoke to one of them and they said that they validate the pen or the injector design on behalf of the client. Can you talk about this dynamics and how many projects out of the 23 or 25 is through these CDMO partners?
Sure. There's two parts to completing a program. One is, where our part ends is design verification. After design verification, you put the batches on stability. During stability, various time points of the stability, you have to test your pens for performance or test your combination product for performance, which is what the CDMO partner does. The knowhow at CDMOs in general is quite limited, especially in India. Full design verification at CDMOs, it's possible. It's not that it's not possible, but typically in the industry, what happens is that the specific knowhow on your device is so much higher with the manufacturer and the designer of the device that customers prefer to do full design verification at the device supplier. In a lot of cases, even the testing, ongoing stability testing happens outside the scope of the CDMO.
Either they would look at a first-party testing lab, their own testing lab, or go back to the supplier, for doing even instability testing of the devices. It's a combination, but design validation, potentially happens at the CDMO space.
Okay. How many of our projects are through these partners? Does the realization vary if we tie up with the client directly, or does it decrease if we go through a CDMO partner?
We haven't tied up directly with any of the CDMOs. We tie up with the pharma companies who may or may not choose to execute the project at a CDMO.
Okay. Got it. Second, you spoke about two new devices. Can you explain what these are on the application and also where we are on our precision electronics journey?
The two new devices, one is, we're seeing sustainability being a very significant topic in regulated markets. We're looking at coming up with a premium reusable device. The second one is we're working in the respiratory space, so nasal. We're looking at developing some unique technology for a soft mist inhaler.
Okay. Another global peer makes devices for almost 15 indications and they're targeting 18. Are we working on any monoclonal antibodies or any biologics apart from the ones that we have already announced?
We are working on monoclonal antibodies using one of our auto-injectors. Again, too soon to talk about it. When we have more, we'll certainly inform the markets.
Okay. Finally, on our drug device capacity, I think it is 40 million devices. By when do you think we will be able to utilize this and when do you think we should go for the next round of CapEx in Healthcare?
40 million devices is. Generally speaking, on every device you have got slightly different capacities installed. We would be looking at expanding some capacities over the next 18 - 24 months, where we will be looking at doubling up on some pen platforms.
18 - 24 months timeline?
Yeah.
Okay. Thank you. I will come back in a bit.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. Next question is from the line of Ganesh Rao from Rupani Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello, am I audible?
Yeah, you're audible.
Thank you. I think a couple of my questions were answered earlier. The one question that I have is, can you please provide some clarity on the fungibility between the non-healthcare side of the business from the toy machine? What needs to be incrementally added, be it value-wise, to switch the capacities over to these other areas?
We don't do any toys anymore, Ganesh. Capacities that we created for the toys business about two years ago, some of it have been utilized for the appliance business that we secured last year. Some of it is being utilized for some LED lighting that we manufacture, and the balance of it will get utilized once we have the increase on our Consumer side of the business. Those capacities will not be utilized for Healthcare.
Yes. Thank you, sir. That's helpful, but one question as a follow-up. Do you need to invest anything additional or is it easily fungible, say, to move this to produce something for the automotive division?
No. There's no further investment needed. It's fungible. There might be a specific investment needed on some sort of a testing equipment or some sort of robot handling for materials, but nothing significant. Very marginal investment.
Thank you, sir. That's all I had.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Nikhil Jain from Galaxy International. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions. Related to the U.K. business, I actually wanted to understand a little bit about the projects that we are actually doing in the U.K. business. Are these same projects that we are actually supplying, let's say, products from our India business, or are they different projects, sir?
No, the project starts in the U.K. First you got to execute the project, complete the device development program, which goes all the way up to their design verification. That's the only point where you can make supplies from India.
Right. There's some kind of a technology transfer from U.K. to India, and then you go ahead and do and supply the commercial supplies, or let's say, exhibit that supplies from India, right?
That's correct.
Okay. The U.K. business will give you an indication of what is the commercial business, or let's exhibit that business that will come to India at some point of time.
Yeah. The U.K. business, exactly. That's where the project starts with the customer, and then project ends with supplies from India.
I see that in our profit, let's say, if I look at the consolidated numbers. Almost 40% of our profit is today contributed by the U.K. business, right? Basically, the design and development activities that are happening over there. Rest of the business, actually including, let's say, whatever exhibit batch supply that we are doing and all the other businesses are contributing probably 60%. Do you think it will change significantly over, let's say, once the product starts to commercialize from India, from the manufacturing facilities?
Yeah. Profitability in India will go up as we scale up. U.K. profitability is not going to come down. It is also going to go up. Combined, consolidated numbers should be healthier than they are at the moment.
Okay. One last question. On liraglutide and on, let's say, teriparatide, we are expecting some approval. Is there any pending deficiency from our end, which is, let's say, kind of holding back or from our customer's end, if you are aware, which is holding back any approval? Is it just a regular process of FDA that is going through?
No, it is a regular process. There is no deficiencies that we have to answer to at the moment on either teri or lira.
Okay.
Just a matter of time.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Anant Jain from HNI. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity again. One question. I think in one of the previous calls, you mentioned that you are working towards something on the precision electronic side. You said that you'll share more on this as time passes. Do you have any updates on this as to what are we planning here? How big can the opportunity be here? Anything on this, if you could share.
I think the opportunity is very large. You would know the market because most of it is public domain knowledge in general. We are at a very nascent stage, so we're still just having discussions with maybe half a dozen potential customers. When we have something more concrete to share, we'll certainly do that.
Okay. I think that was the only question I had. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Sanjay Kumar from ithought PMS. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Again, a bunch of questions. One, we have one IP for insulin, but someone like Ypsomed has announced that it will do insulin only for one or two more years. This is contract manufacturing, CMO. Are we getting more inquiries from our existing customers like Sanofi? Is there any other one IP insulin under pipeline, or are we in talks? Is it just the one that we have won so far?
There are several ongoing discussions, and you will see the order pipeline becoming stronger on insulin as well. I'm glad Ypsomed has announced that they're getting out of insulin. Gives us a better opportunity.
Wow, okay. Second, on liraglutide, I think in one of the previous con calls, we said that we can do 2 million pens in lira itself. Can we do that in FY 2026, 2 million pens in lira?
FY 2026, yes. Launch happens, yes, 2 million will happen for sure.
Okay. Let's say 50 million is the lira market. Safe to assume a 10% market share for us?
It really depends on how the launches get or approvals come in.
Okay.
I think the customers we're working with do have good success rates. We're hopeful that if lira launch happens, we should see, starting with nothing less than potentially about close to 1 million pens in the first year. Maybe not FY 2026, but FY 2027, maybe 2 million-3 million pens.
Got it. Okay. Are you still confident of, in one of the con calls, we said that we'll be having 70% of the generic players filing for these GLP-1s. Is that still holding true?
Yes. Semaglutide, I believe it still holds true.
Wow, okay. Have you signed or at least talking to any of these MNCs for GLP-1s or any small biotechs working on GLP-1s?
We're doing both.
Okay, then. Finally, on Consumer, you did mention consumer electronics. I don't know if you can reveal the product, but is it similar to our existing capabilities of working with ABS?
ABS?
Yeah, Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
No, not necessarily. Consumer electronics, you'd be looking at maybe high-performance engineering polymers more than ABS.
Oh, okay. Are we also looking at other segments? Let's say today India imports almost 90% of its eyewear frames and sunglasses from China, and some of it is plastic, cellulose-based plastics, are we looking at this market?
No. Not at the moment.
All right. Okay. That's it from my side. Thank you.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Again, a couple of basic questions. Sir, specifically on the device, what gives us confidence that our devices won't infringe innovators' device patents? How should we look at it?
We've spent about close to INR 180,000 conducting the FTO, freedom to operate, on this particular device.
Okay. Aren't there any patents in the emerging markets which are expiring earlier? How should one understand that?
Yeah. You've got Brazil, India, Canada, where you have semaglutide launches 2026, right?
Okay. Fair. Just last one question. I think in one of the earlier calls, you had indicated that there is margin differential between GLP-1 and insulin being lower. How should one understand this, comprehend this, given it looks like over the next three to five years, you will have the option to choose what you want to do? How are you thinking about the opportunity and what will be the differential in margins?
Margins are healthy on both GLP-1 and insulin. Insulin obviously will be lower. The way we look at it is that we're looking at scaling up the business right now very significantly. The insulin business is a very steady, stable, healthy business. We have no intentions to pick one over the other. We will look at continuing to grow the insulin business as well as the others.
The reason to ask this is, I think in the prior question also, the gentleman did ask that it actually opens up an opportunity for us, which is a good thing. I'm just trying to get a sense on the margin side. Even for insulin, can one presume that the number would be upwards of 30% + at an EBITDA level?
Contract to contract, it will vary, but insulin is price sensitive. It is significantly commoditized. I will not give a margin [on insulin].
Okay. Fair enough. That's fine. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.
Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Aman Vij from Astute Investment Management. Please go ahead.
Sir, just on this insulin part again. This order which we have won, the customer has won a tender kind of thing or can it be a repeat kind of business for us?
No. It would end up being a repeat business. You can't go in and out of insulin. You have to supply.
Sure, sir. The reason for asking is what we keep hearing is that the big three companies are now focusing on GLP-1, and they are exiting the insulin tender market and maybe even normal insulin market. They're not focusing on that. Are you seeing much more inquiries from potential customers because of this vacant space being created? If yes, do you think, one is 10 million orders you have talked about, but do you think insulin pens itself, you can supply maybe own IP pens, maybe much higher numbers in the next one, two years because of this vacant space being created?
The short answer, Aman, is yes. The reason behind the answer, as you stipulated, I would not fully agree with, because if you look at even Europe today, most of Europe is a tender business. I don't see the big three exiting any tender businesses just like that. Regardless of how well GLP-1 does, it's still a combination therapy. For diabetes, insulin is absolutely needed. I don't see how one can aid the sale of the other. Exiting the insulin space for the big three would be quite devastating, I imagine.
Let me clarify. Not in a regulated market, we were hearing, say, in South Africa or in emerging markets, they are kind of not participating in tenders. Maybe there's an opportunity in Middle East.
South Africa volume will be what? It will be less than a couple of 100,000 pens. That is possible. We have customers who will consolidate volumes for several markets.
You are seeing such kind of orders from other customers also, such big orders possible in the next one, two years?
Yes. It's possible. Next two years, yes. We're seeing the orders come in for insulin. Yeah.
Okay. That's perfect, actually. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today's call. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you. Thank you everyone for joining the call. We hope that we've been able to answer your questions adequately. For any further information, I request you to get in touch with SGA, our investor relations advisors. Thank you and have a great evening.
Thank you. Bye.
On behalf of Shaily Engineering Plastics Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.