Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the SRF Limited Q1 FY2025 post-results earnings conference call, hosted by Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Archit Joshi. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. We at B&K Securities are pleased to host SRF Limited's Q1 FY2025 results conference call. We have with us today Mr. Rahul Jain, President and Chief Financial Officer of SRF Limited. I would now like to invite Ms. Nikita Dhawan, Head of Corporate Communications at SRF Limited, to initiate the proceedings for the results conference call. Over to you, ma'am. Thank you.
Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on SRF Limited's Quarter 1 FY2025 results conference call. We will begin this call with brief opening remarks from our President and CFO, Mr. Rahul Jain, following which we will open the forum for an interactive question and answer session. Before we begin this call, I would like to point out that some statements made in this call may be forward-looking, and a disclaimer to this effect has been included in the earnings presentation shared with you earlier. I would now like to invite Mr. Jain to make his opening remarks.
Thank you, Nikita. Good afternoon, everyone. I extend a warm welcome to you all, and thank you for joining us today for SRF's Q1 FY2025 earnings conference call. I trust all of you have had the opportunity to go through our results and the presentation shared with you earlier. I will begin the call by briefly taking you through the key financial and operational highlights for the period under review, following which we will open the forum for a Q&A session. The current quarter was indeed a challenging one, primarily due to the ongoing environment in the chemicals business. The challenges have notably impacted sales in both our specialty and fluorochemical segments. Nevertheless, we remain confident of a revival in the second half of the current fiscal year.
In Q1 FY2025, our gross operating revenue stood at INR 3,464 crore, and EBIT was recorded at INR 484 crore, representing a 14% margin. Meanwhile, profit after tax came in at INR 252 crore. During the quarter, the board has approved an interim dividend amounting to INR 3.60 per share, which is about 36%. Coming to our segmental performance, the chemical business reported revenues of INR 1,482 crore, a decline of 11% over the corresponding period last year. The specialty chemical segment faced certain challenges during the quarter, largely owing to sluggish demand in the agrochemical sector, as some customers continued the inventory rationalization measures, which we have seen since Q2 FY2024.
While some of this is now coming to an end, a clear guidance on when will the pickup happen is still unknown. Amidst these hurdles, I am pleased to share that we made notable strides in expanding our product portfolio, including launch of a new pharmaceutical intermediate, and have made suitable substantial progress in the commercialization of some new products that have yielded positive traction in Q1 FY2025. We had capitalized on approximately INR 1,800 crores of projects in the specialty chemicals business last year and are now focusing on ramping these up in FY2025. Our efforts are also directed towards cost structures, efficiency through tech interventions and process improvements, and continued discussions with customers for meeting their current and future requirements. With anticipated gradual recovery in demand from agrochemical sector, we expect a positive impact on performance in the second half of the current fiscal.
During the quarter, our fluorochemical division witnessed a significant increase in domestic volumes of our HFC product portfolio, driven by heatwaves and pricing of certain key refrigerants being firm in the domestic market. Additionally, demand for diamine pharma propellant remained strong. U.S. markets saw lower volumes for some refrigerants, and pricing was also lower. On an overall basis, HFC volumes remained strong compared to corresponding period last year. However, we also witnessed certain challenges in the chloromethane segment, and pricing remains subdued for certain key products. Further, our newly established PTFE facility is gaining traction in the domestic markets, with export sampling also underway. The progress on value-added grades is also progressing as planned. At SRF, we take pride in our exceptional R&D capabilities within the Indian chemical industry.
Our team of over 450 skilled professionals is essential to developing advanced products and processes for our specialty chemical and fluorochemical businesses. With expertise in handling complex chemistries, SRF is at the forefront of tackling challenging projects. Our strength in R&D is highlighted by our significant patent portfolio, including 151 granted patents and 451 process patents filed. Looking ahead, R&D will continue to drive SRF's pursuit of excellence, leading innovations in process development, scale-up, and commercialization of new chemistries, such as advanced intermediates, active agrochemical ingredients, and next generation refrigerants. Coming to our packaging films business, we delivered 22% YoY growth, reaching INR 1,336 crores in Q1 FY2025. Profit margins improved, driven by record production levels and robust box sales. Margins for BOPP segment, film segment improved, benefiting from higher capacity utilization and stable demand.
While the BOPET films also witnessed some positives towards the end of Q1, an oversupply situation and intense competition from Chinese players in Southeast Asia still persists in the BOPET segment. Despite the challenging conditions, SRF's value-added product portfolio, long-term customer contracts, and an easy-to-do business with ability provided us a competitive edge, enabling us to maintain profitability and achieve industry-leading performance. In our recently established aluminum foil facility, export sampling is underway. We are focused on reaching optimal utilization levels soon and anticipate a ramp-up in production in H2. Moving to our technical textiles business segment, revenue grew by 13% to INR 525 crore during the quarter, with steady contribution from the nylon tarpaulin fabric segment and polyester industrial yarn segments, while demand for belting fabric softened. Our focus in the segment remains on enhancing higher margin value-added sales.
We have also made notable progress in clean energy usage, achieving the highest share of renewable power during the quarter. Our commitment to renewable energy has led to a substantial portion of our energy needs being met through green sources. Additionally, expansion projects of dipping and BF capacities are advancing as planned. Lastly, in our other segment, we reported steady growth in coated and laminated fabric businesses. SRF maintained its leading position in the domestic coated fabric market by volume and price, achieving record domestic sales with strong seasonal demand anticipated. The business aims to boost profitability by increasing volumes, increasing domestic volumes through value-added products, and expanding into new segments. In laminated fabrics, we retained price leadership with full capacity operations, although oversupply is pressuring margins.
Coming to our philanthropic initiatives, the SRF Foundation established nine Anganwadi centers in Netrang and Bharuch during the quarter, in close vicinity of our chemicals and manufacturing facilities in Dahej. In Mewat, our foundation team led the opening event of a model Anganwadi center at Firozpur Namak Village, with 140+ community members attending. SRF has recently been honored with very prestigious awards. Our Chairman Emeritus, Mr. Arun Bharat Ram, received the Outstanding Contribution to Education and Skill Development Award from Hurun India. SRF was recognized by Frost & Sullivan Institute with the 2024 Enlightened Growth Leadership Best Practices Award. Some other notable achievements are a part of our press release shared earlier. In conclusion, over the years, SRF has built a resilient multi-business structure that positions us well to navigate a dynamic environment.
Although some sectors may encounter near-term challenges, we are confident that our business model and an ever-expanding product profile will keep us in good stead as cycles turn. Overall growth and sustainable value for all stakeholders should be created. On that note, I conclude my remarks and would be glad to discuss any questions, comments, or suggestions that you may have. I would now like to ask the moderator to open the line for the Q&A session. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good afternoon, sir. Thanks for taking my question. I was first on the specialty chemical side-
Sanjesh, can you be a bit louder, please?
Can you hear me, sir, now?
I can hear you better. Yes, thank you.
Thank you, sir. Thank you. First, on the specialty chemical side, are we still holding on to our guidance of 20%, and we are confident that second half will make for all the shortfalls in the first half?
So, Sanjesh, I expected the question, to be very frank about it. Given the fact that the overall chemical business this, this quarter has been slightly lower, you also have to understand that when we were looking at it from a QoQ perspective, Q1 last year was still very good. We started to witness some of the inventory rationalizations and some of those positions coming through, probably towards Q2 of last year. Again, Q2, Q3, Q4, all of those, we saw some negatives coming through, in fact. Given that as a situation and the high base that we are with as of now, I think a 20% number is still very achievable. But again, I think, the, the key element here also is the market.
While we are also expecting some of the market positions that have played out during the first quarter now to be better going forward. With all of those factored in, I think we are still fairly confident of being able to get there.
Great, sir. One more related question there: Are we anticipating any new AI launch in this year, or that will be still work in progress for us, and that's more like a FY2026 story?
So in this new AI that we have spoken about, we have already sent out the samples. We've already sent out certain representative samples to some of the customers. As their registrations do come through, I think the commercial orders of those will start to flow. Again, while I can't give you the exact date when they will start to come in, fact is that the product approval is pretty much through. And therefore, as the registrations come in, we should see some traction on the new AI also. At least two, I can tell you, have gone through, and there is work going on on others as well.
Great, sir. Thank you. One last question on the fluoro, refrigerant gas side, fluorocarbon. How do you expect U.S. volume for this year? Is the worst behind for us in terms of volume, and U.S. volumes from here on should stabilize for us?
So when you will compare it to last year, certainly volume will be lower from a U.S. market perspective. But again, Sanjesh, like I said during the start of this call, that the domestic market traction has really helped us. I think we have seen very significant volume increases in the domestic market, as much as, in some cases, if not double, 60%-70% increase in volumes. Like we have also mentioned in the press release, as well as, I think in the presentation, the idea today is to continue to focus on production as much as we can. And that's the first priority here, Sanjesh, to be very frank. Volumes have been positive.
Overall volumes, I would still say when I compare from Q1 are still positive, although, again, to a certain extent, pricing has been lower. The drag on the chemical business or the fluorochemical business also has been, to a certain extent, the chloromethane. The end product demand is kind of not significantly there, which is leading to some lower pricing creating there. I think some of that recovery should also happen, and some positive trends on that should also come through from this. But again, I would tend to think more towards H2.
Got it, sir. That's it from my side. I have a few more questions, but I will come back in with you. Thank you very much, and best of luck for the coming quarters.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vivek Ramakrishnan from DSP Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity. My question is around the continued CapEx and what kind of debt/EBITDA guidance or levels do you see going forward, and whether if the profitability does not come back, you can defer any of the CapEx plans? Thank you.
Vivek, the way we look at CapEx, this year, I think the overall CapEx number should be in the range of about INR 1,300 crores -INR 1,900 crores overall. With that as a number, my debt to EBITDA should still improve from what number we were at, probably in FY 2024. I don't see an issue in terms of saying that we have to defer CapEx for cash flow requirements. I think we still have a fairly strong balance sheet. We still have fairly good numbers in terms of what we are generating. In fact, I would still tend to think that if there is a need to do a higher CapEx, even in a slightly lower cycle, I think we are in fairly good shape. F Y2025, debt to EBITDA numbers, I think will certainly be lower than, FY 2024 numbers.
That's how we would look at it. If there is a profitable project that we can look at, certainly happy to take that forward.
Sure, sir. Thank you. I was just asking in the context of, you know, the very high credit rating that you had, but, I hear you. All the best, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ankur, Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. First question on the chemicals margin. We have seen a sharper decline year-on-year. Is it, you know, alluding to the earlier discussion during the earlier quarters? Is it because of the pricing pressure in some of the products or, you know, any specific reason for the same?
So, Ankur, two things I would say. When, if you look at our positions from FY 2024 till now, I think a very large amount of CapEx that has been capitalized during both in the specialty chemical space as well as in the fluorochemical space. My sense, rough sense, is probably in the range of about INR 1,900, sorry, INR 1,800+ about INR 700, so around INR 2,500 crores -INR 2,600 crores of CapEx that has been capitalized. I would typically tend to say that when you look at margins on a quarter-by-quarter basis, there is some depreciation drag that is coming in. As some of these ramp up, there will be a positive change that we will start to see on the margin profile. Like a chemical business, it will always take time to ramp up the chemical plant.
Therefore, there is some negativity on this side. If you look at the year as a whole, EBIT margin for last year, we were probably in the range of about 35%-36%. I can't tell you what number we will get at, but I think it should remain within this range, ±2%, positive or negative, from an annualized basis. I've always said that we should not look at margins on a quarter-on-quarter perspective. To answer the second part of your question, yes, there has been a pricing drag also, with respect to margins, but like I said in the earlier comment, there is certain pricing positions that are starting to improve, which should go well for the future, Ankur.
... Sure, sir. Just a follow-up on that, the tech interventions or the cost-cutting measures that you are alluding to, the benefit of that has already started coming in or it will be coming, let's say, Q2 or Q3?
Sir, they're not overnight measures. There is work that is going on. Some positives have already started to come in, and some we will see continued over a period of time. So, it's not a one-time overnight exercise. It's a journey in that sense.
Sure. Sure, that's helpful. Just a second bit here, on the CapEx plan, you did allude it towards INR 18 billion-INR 19 billion for this year. If I'm not wrong, earlier, we were at INR 21 billion-INR 22 billion, of which INR 18 billion-INR 19 billion was chemical. So any specific project which has been deferred, and how much of this will be going into chemical?
Well, yeah, good. Whenever we talk about CapEx, there are no deferments that have happened. In fact, we have been judicious about CapEx. Whenever we talk about CapEx, we have always taken into account certain CapExes that will be announced during the financial year, and therefore, that number comes through. I don't think at any point in time, INR 100 ± crore is too much of an issue. So, and again, I don't remember saying INR 21 billion-INR 22 billion as such. So, I think the way we look at it is that what are the CapExes that are going on today, and what are the ones that will be likely to get sanctioned? That we have deferred certain CapExes? Not really.
Okay, great. And the breakup of this, you know, among the chemical business here? For FY2025, that is.
You would tend to think that the majority is still on the fluoropolymer side. There is the capacitor grade film that is going on. So those are the two large ones, P-35 in the specialty chemicals space. So those are the large ones that are going on. Majority still remains chemical, but yes, like we also said in the past, the amount of CapEx that gets incurred in the packages is a large CapEx that gets incurred over a small period of time. So there could be some flips around it as such.
Okay, great. That's it from my side. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Surya Patra from PhillipCapital India Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, sir. So my first question is about the new project utilizations, whether the 78 tonne project, what we have commissioned in the specialty chemicals side, those started, and those are commercial now and have achieved any specific kind of utilization rate, sir?
So, to be very frank about it, Surya, I think there is a lot of traction that has come through from our new projects. At least I can tell you in the revenue position here, let's say some of the new products have done very, very well. It's not that, the revenues from those could be in excess of about INR 150 crores -INR 200 crores, as of quarter. So therefore, the ramp-up of these is also something that will come through overall, during this year. So that's a positive. Obviously, some of the older products or the legacy products that we had, we've seen some decline, and therefore, we are very happy to share that, because some of these new products have done really well, we are in better shape.
As the cycle turns for the older products also, I think there should be some positive traction on this, on that side.
Okay. And, sir, you mentioned about the pharma intermediate, new pharma intermediate. So, could you share whether it is an advanced intermediate or will it require regulatory clearance of the unit, all those kind of things, or it is just an intermediate?
Pharma intermediates are all non-actives. So we are not getting into an active pharma ingredient, so no regulatory approval required, so yeah.
Okay. Just last one, sir, about the pricing aspect. See, you have also, in your opening remark, indicated that the agri input prices remain softer only, and the element of the China pressure also that you have highlighted in your presentation. So, how do you see, sir, see, in fact, while about the demand recovery of the industry's demand recovery, you are saying that second half possibly will see the kind of recovery. But, are you hopeful about the price recovery as well simultaneously?
To be very frank, Surya, I think the end product demand is still very strong. The only question today is when we look at what is the customer really looking at from a medium-term perspective. Now, there is the China pressure on pricing that is there. We are looking forward to some of the, let's say, volumes that have been some of the products that we have. What has been pricing is still out of our control, to be very frank, Surya.
Correct. My-
What we are wanting to look at is how much can we do, both in terms of pricing, both in terms of volume and cost management or cost positions that we are creating on that. I think those are the ones that are in our control, and therefore, we look at it from that perspective. Pricing really is a function of what markets are at any point in time. And I will say that negotiations with customers, relationships with customers help us to be able to drive some better pricing also from there.
In fact, sir, the, the agrochemical input manufacturing or intermediate manufacturing by China has gone up over 50% over the last two quarter period. So, so hence the concern that whether that will pose a threat to pricing trend, also recovery trend for the chemical, agrochemical as a whole, that is the question. So you're saying that, okay-
Fact of the matter is that we look at it with a more, let's say, How should I say this? There's a lens that typically we don't look at from. So to that extent, like I said, I think the answer remains the same. While our efforts will be to ensure we get better volume, we discuss that with customers, the positions that we are taking in terms of our costing should be better. I think those are the things that are in our control, which we want to look at, rather than what the Chinese are doing in that sense.
Yeah. Sure, sir. Yeah. Thank you. Wish you all the best.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Vivek Rajamani from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you so much for the presentation. On the first question, in terms of the second half pickup, would it be possible to give some sense in terms of whether it'll be more driven by your expanded capacities, or it's gonna be a combination of both the expanded capacities as well as the underlying improvement in the overall demand sentiment?
Talking about the specialty chemical business, I assume, Vivek?
Yes, sir.
Yeah, so I think it will be a combination of both. Like I said to an earlier question, we've seen significant positives from new products that are coming. I think good revenue positions. Those plants should ramp up over the next, let's say, 9-12 months. So that's a positive that should come in. Again, given where the situation of some of the older products are, I think there should be a pickup on those as well. When and how, really, I don't know. That is something that only the markets will decide. But I think the way we are looking at it, that the pickups in the new, in the new product plus the older products should give us enough ability to, to, let's say, grow this year overall.
Sure, sir. And just secondly, and it's a bit of a related question. You mentioned that the specific time of the recovery is clearly uncertain. Just wanted to get a sense, in terms of the conversations that you're having with your customers, do you get a sense that this uncertainty is more focused on 2024, and as we look into 2025, they're actually a bit more confident? Or do you get a sense that, you know, it's still very, very dynamic even into 2025?
So to be very clear, I think it is still very dynamic. Given where, let's say the Chinese are, where some of the products are, in the older products, this is how it is playing out. Customers are willing to look at medium-term contracts, but again, with the current pricing, I may not be willing to look at that kind of an opportunity. So it's a... How should I say this? It's a song and dance that's playing out. And we have to also be very cognizant of how we really take it forward. So, as of now, the pickup seems clear, but we are fairly hopeful, given where discussions are, that we should be in good shape going forward.
Sure, sir. Very clear. Thank you, and all the very best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Keyur Pandya from ICICI Prudential Life Insurance. Please go ahead.
Thank you. So just, first question is on this, six AIs that you have talked about. You can bifurcate, them into, say, generic and special, or patented, and the purpose is that any of the generic AIs, have we seen or, do we have to, rework the economics, or is, is it in any way impacting or will probably impact the margins? So what was the economics say six months back or nine months back versus what is today because of the pricing pressure globally?
So then I think the discussions that are going on, Keyur, are largely with global majors, which are for either for their patented products. So that's how it is. To be able to give you color on whether I have to, I have to rework the mechanics of it, really very difficult to say, Keyur. I'll have to go back to the business and see if there is, there is something on that side. I think the way it is, it is structured for us today is that some of these newer products or newer AIs should be sampled. Customers are now looking at the timing of their registration, and once they launch the final product, I think the PO should come through. So that's how it is structured, Keyur.
I don't think there is a need to work out the, let's say, there is a need to revise working of this. But again, like I said, the cost focus remains. We will continue to focus on costs as well and create, let's say, a positive margin impact going forward.
So all of them are, fall into the patented category?
So I think it is unfair for me to be able to say that all are there, but the larger discussions that are happening are with global majors. So that's why what I agree, but I'll have to probably come back to you in terms of the specific answer to that question.
Okay. Okay. And the second question is, so the, I mean, the possible impact of these AIs and their repricing, if any, and the shift of, say, refrigerant's volumes away from U.S. probably to India and to other geographies in Asia or Middle East,
... Be able to hear you well. Could you just pick up the handset and talk, because your voice is a bit muffled?
It is. Is it better? Hello.
Slightly, and if you would just please speak a bit slower.
Okay. So, in terms of refrigerants, the shift of geography from U.S. to, say, India and other export geographies, so considering that, you are, so you are confident of what your margin range that you give for the entire segment that includes chemical and refrigerant gas both. So basically, then, the final question was, is there any repricing, if any, in this AIs, and shift of geography in refrigerant gas away from U.S.? Are they factoring when you say guidance of around 25%-26%?
So again, when I said that, I think it takes all of that into account for you. The only point to note is, I think there are two different points that you are raising here. What I am saying is that, that when you look at it from a refrigerant gas perspective, HFC, the idea today is to try and do as much production as we can, given where the positions on quota are, right? So that is something that continues, which is for calendar 2024, 2025, 2026. For the specialty chemical, yes, as the new plants ramp up, there should be an operating leverage positive that should also play out, which should give us positive traction on the margin side.
Understood. Okay. Thanks a lot. All the best.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rohan Gupta from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, sir. Good evening, and thanks for the opportunity. So first, once again, question is on your CapEx plan. You mentioned up to INR 1,600 crore-1,900 crore for the current year. So, I think one and a half year back, almost, when our chairman gave an output of almost investing INR 12,000 crore-INR 15,000 crore CapEx, overall net over five years. So just wanted to check that, this kind of number, because this is significantly lower than what we had invested last year. So is there any long-term changes are happening, or it is just only in the current year, we are going with the lower CapEx given the weakness in the industry environment in general, and will pick up from the next year once again?
So, I think this is a question that was typically also asked last quarter, when we were kind of talking about the CapEx numbers going forward. Again, Rohan, I think given where the environment is today, we are not significantly lowering the number. We have just said that the INR 12,000 crore-INR 15,000 crore number that we had talked about for a five-year period will probably be just done over a six-year period now. I think that's the position that is there today also. Like I said in answer to an earlier question also, Rohan, we are not looking at curtailing any capacity, but we are also wanting to be judicious about the money that we are spending.
Therefore, the amount that has been spent in last year, we are looking to ensure that we do a good job in terms of using those assets going forward. As that happens, CapEx is not a problem. We will keep doing more CapEx in the chemical business because that continues the strategic plan going forward as well, in terms of where we where the company will invest in, and mostly in the chemical business. So that's how it should work out, Rohan.
Okay. Sir, second question is on your growth outlook. You mentioned that in specialty chemicals, you are still not denied that a 20% kind of growth opportunity, and even in EBIT margins also, sir, in the, despite the current quarter being roughly closer to 20% EBIT margin, you are still looking at that it may be, maybe 200 basis points here and there from the last year, which is 25.5%-26%. So what kind of optimism, I mean, you are looking in the business, which is still keeping you that intact, that you may still achieve those kind of numbers by in the near one quarter, two quarters, and one quarter is already gone, and you are still mentioning that the chemical global inventory situation is still going on.
So what is holding on from, I mean, giving or what is, what is the optimism which you are building in that, how the scenario in second half will become so rosy that we can go up to 20% kind of specialty chemical growth? For that, we need to have a significant growth number in H2 and even at the margin front also. So I'm just looking at what, what is the, which are seeing that it can drive a second half growth so drastically?
So a very long question. Let me try and answer it in one line. I think, we've said this earlier also. You're seeing some seasonality going on in the business. H2 for specialty chemicals business has always been heavier than H1. That's the procurement term pattern of global business. That's what we have seen over time as well. You've always seen H2 being better for us when we compare to H1. To that extent, I think, we are fairly confident that some of these will come through. It's a dynamic environment today. The markets are a bit volatile. Customers are going through an inventory challenge that's being led. All of those, given all of those steps that are happening, we are still launching new products on a continuous basis.
New products are showing good traction going forward as well. I think all of those put together, that's where we are in terms of the overall growth versus margin positioning. I have always said, Rohan, that you should not look at it from a quarter-on-quarter margin. There are various things that play out during a quarter. When you look at it from an annualized perspective, I still think the positions that we've taken are still fairly achievable. Where and how that will be achieved from, I can't give you the numbers on sales and targets around it. That's pretty impossible to do.
Also just logical from my side.
Yeah, thanks a lot.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhijit Akella from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you. So, two questions from my side. First one on packaging films. So we've seen about INR 150-odd crore sequential increase in revenues in that segment. So first, just to understand whether we should, you know, sort of assume that most of it has come from pricing on a sequential basis? And if so, the segment EBIT has gone up by only about INR 50-odd crores, you know, even if the revenues have come largely from pricing. So sort of just trying to understand, you know, whether there's any increased expenses in any form in that segment. So that's it.
So again, I think not really. I think there is, when we look at the overall production from an HR perspective, I think we are still doing really well. So, and when we look at using the same assets, creating more value out of the same asset, I think the numbers that we are now doing are better than last year. So our like our plant production this quarter has been higher than sequentially, let's say, before last year. So that's a positive. From an HR perspective, the utilization levels have become better, and therefore, that's another positive that has got added. Yes, to a certain extent, there has been a pricing positive that has also been factored in from a sequential revenue growth number. But it is not just pricing, is what I can tell you.
Okay, so volumes have also grown up sequentially, right?
Yes, please. Yeah, we will be in the process.
Okay. Okay, sir. Second one was just on the HF plant capacity, you know, which is alluded to in the investor presentation. So if you could please just share some color around that, you know, what's the capacity there, and like, how much are we buying from outside today in terms of HF and how much will this help us, you know, sort of save, or how much of our production will it basically help us make in-house going forward?
Again, I think I'll have to check up in terms of the overall capacity on the HF. I'll come back to you. My sense is that the way the HF is structured today, the overall HF requirement from the existing 32 or HFC-134a, or other requirements that we have in the specialty chemical business, the new HF plant should take care of all of those. To a certain extent, certain, let's say, bottlenecks that we have faced in terms of overall production, was because of the HF availability. As that plant comes downstream, I think there should be some positives on that front that should come up. But the exact number, I'll come back to you, Abhijit.
Okay, sir. Understood. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press Star and One to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Siddharth Gadekar from Equirus. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir, good evening. Just from the R-32 capacity, which we commissioned last year, can you give us some sense on the utilization levels and how should we see it through this calendar year?
So again, I think we have to look at it from an annual perspective about it. I think the plant has been commissioned early last quarter. That's probably December end is when it was commissioned. So the availability, the market demand, that has to be looked at. From an annualized perspective, I think we are targeting getting 70%-75% on the overall available capacity on the R-32. I think that should be the one that we should look at, rather than from a Q1 perspective. Because relatively, the value that comes out of pure Q1 number is not really great. What I can tell you, and I think I alluded to it in the earlier part of it, domestic volumes for HFCs have grown significantly.
I think to a certain extent, a large part of the R32 available capacity that was there is pretty much utilized. Our endeavor is to continue to enhance production from it, given various regulatory positions around it.
So, I wanted to get from an annualized perspective that will we be reaching a 30,000 ton, so we get eligible for the entire quotas beyond 2023 by 2026? So how should we look at it from a quota perspective for the annualized number?
Again, I don't think I will be able to give that, because the endeavor is to continue to produce. Quota is not just for FY calendar 2024, it is the next three years.
Correct.
Unfortunately, can't give you that information as such.
Okay, okay. Okay, got it, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Vishnu Kumar from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Good evening, and thank you. Thanks for your time, sir. Sir, in terms of order to execution and delivery, we think let's say the lead time is probably anywhere between one to three months. Current conversations is giving-
Slightly slower. I am unable to understand what you're saying.
Yeah. In terms of the conversations with the innovators and the dispatch schedule, that probably from getting the order and to kind of delivering, what would be the timeline? And the second of recovery we are seeing is because we have our order flow is likely to be much better. Is that the takeaway that we, we have today?
So, the dispatch days will depend on various production planning and various other things around it, Vishnu. Depending upon what we have discussed with the customer, whether you can produce it or you have certain inventory of those products available to be dispatched, that really determines the dispatch date. It's not an overnight situation where we can predict what is the dispatch date for certain products. It basically based on conversations with the customers. The second question was something that I missed. Could you just repeat that?
No, my question was, given the dispatch schedule, I mean, the second half recovery, in growth, is it because the volume we are visibly seeing that the order flow in terms of volumes are likely to be higher to the customers based on the conversations that we've had, and the likely dispatch schedules. Or we still need to go across a month and a half, to get to a better clarity on second half?
So again, I think there is already certain discussions that are positive. There are certain orders that are to be dispatched in H2, and those orders have been confirmed. From a specialty chemicals business perspective, certain orders are there, which are contracted with the customers. We have to get a schedule from them for the dispatch. We will do the production planning appropriately and then do certain things. But let's say, when we look at it from an overall perspective, right, the visibility that is there is probably in the range of about 75%-80%, rather than being 120%. So that's how I would really look at it.
Understood, sir. And my second question is on the pricing. I mean, last three-four years, you've come full cycle from where, in general, on the agrochemical pricing, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022-23, it was very high and now it has come back down. So structurally, even for our products, should we see that even if the recovery were to happen, in the industry were to recover, would pricing not be as what it was in 2020-23? And hence, where would our margin in this business be, even if the recovery were to come back?
So again, Vishnu, like I said, to an earlier question, what we are looking to do is manage our costs well, look at properly populating our plants that we have in place and ensuring volumes come through. Pricing particularly is something that we can't control, and therefore, what we are looking to control is what we can actually. So cost, various elements around it, is something that we will continue to look at. If the pricing does come out to be a positive, we will certainly see positive traction on that side. But typically, in these situations also, you can't really control the entire price. There are negotiations with customers that happen. There are, let's say, certain key products, new products, pricing has not been a challenge.
We have seen that as a positive coming through. Our focus on new products in the specialty chemicals space has been reaping good results. I think I've said all of that earlier as well. In the fluorochemicals space, again, like I said, currently the idea is to produce as much as we can. And obviously, given where the current markets are, pricing seems to be a positive trend. That's how we would really look at it, Vishnu.
Okay, sir. Thanks a lot.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Krishan Parwani from JM Financial. Please go ahead.
Yes. Hi, sir. Just two clarifications from my side. So the first is that I think in your previous comment, you mentioned CapEx for PTFE. Can you please highlight how much additional CapEx that you would incur for PTFE in 25? And what will be your asset base for PTFE?
Oh, no, no, I never said PTFE. Maybe you got confused. It was for the new fluoropolymers, the three new fluoropolymers. I think the, the numbers are already out in terms of the total cost that we are incurring on that, and it's probably in the range of up to INR 600 crore or so. So that's, that's how it is, the total amount that is to be incurred. Those products probably come online, in a, in a phased manner, but let's say by Q2 FY 2026. Sorry, it will probably be slightly later than that. November of 2025, December of 2025. So Q2 FY... Q3 FY 2026 is when we start to come online, but probably in a phased manner.
Noted. Noted. So it's on the CapEx of PTFE. And what's your current asset base for PTFE, if you could highlight that?
Roughly speaking, PTFE project was capitalized at about, I don't remember it exactly. Let me just check the number. Roughly about INR 490-INR 500.
Understood. Understood. That's, that's an asset base, right? Okay. Okay, this is, that's all from my side. Thank you, and wish you all the best, sir.
Thank you, Krishan.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Surya Patra from PhillipCapital India Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah, just one follow-up, sir. Could you share some idea what is the stage of the operation of this aluminum foil project and the PTFE in terms of utilization and progress?
So, Surya, those are new products for us. I think there is a longer learning curve than we had initially anticipated. Aluminum foil, what we believe is, again, ramp up in H2. The samples of the product for European customers and certain export customers have already been sent. They should start to convert into orders probably towards the end of Q2. Similar, I think, is with PTFE. The basic grade, which is the suspension grade, we've already kind of established and we are exporting. Free flow and fine cut, I think to a certain extent, domestic market, we are already starting to sell. Samples for the export market have already been sent out. Hopefully, again, H2 should see some traction on that.
Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nasir Hussain from Fintech Research Advisors Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, so my question is that in HFC, what is the product or blend that we are pushing to our customers? And how competitive is this product or blend against Chinese manufacturers?
I don't get the question. What product are you talking about?
In HFCs, what is the product or blend that we are selling to, pushing to our customers?
In three basic gases that are there, the R-32, R-134a, and R-125. Various blends of these are also produced. We are, we are also, let's say, either a blend of two of the HFCs or all three of the HFCs, depending upon the, the refrigeration requirement. So to that extent, we are, we are selling all of these to our local as well as global customers, depending on the requirement. Your question with respect to the, the, competitiveness that, that, to China, I think we are, we are a company that has all of the backward integration around it, and because of that, we have a fairly, decent cost structure on all of these. So fairly competitive in that sense. I hope that answers your question.
Yeah. I had just another question. So, because of the U.S. quota, we were expanding into the Middle East and Southeast Asia geographies, right? As of last quarter. So, What is the status of the geographical expansion, and have we recognized any revenue in Middle East or Southeast Asia markets?
So, so to be very frank, Middle East has always been a big, big market for us. We've been selling to that market. On an overall basis, like I said, our Q-on-Q corresponding period last year, volume in the HFC has seen significant growth to a certain extent because we have the product as competitive, but also because we've been able to proliferate it in both the local markets and the global market and our key export markets as well. When I look at it from a just percentage perspective, I think even the export market volume expanded by around 9%-10%.
So how much revenue are we generating now from our exports on HFC?
We don't give the revenue breakups from a domestic or export perspective.
Yeah. Could you give that breakup?
No, I don't give that breakup, please.
Okay. All right. Yeah, thank you. That's it from my side.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Dhruv Muchhal from HDFC Asset Management Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Yes, sir, thank you so much. So the question is that, we are seeing that fee rates have increased significantly. So this time, aren't you seeing-
Sorry, sir, speak slow.
Yeah, one second. The fee rates have increased significantly, so this time, aren't you seeing the pre-buying that, you know, last time that same thing happened, is happening this time around? And if not, why is that?
Fee rates.
Yeah, freight rates. Container rates, yeah, have increased significantly. So last time we saw that there was a lot of pre-buying, but this time it seems that's not happening. So just wanted to understand how do you read this? And why I'm asking this is because at least in U.S. and Europe, at least market reports say that most of the inventory destocking is largely done, and the inventories are thin. It is only about demand growth now. So given that situation, why is that pre-buying not happening this time around?
You're talking about HFCs I believe?
No, sir, for spec chem, for the general chem products.
Oh, so again, to be very frank, two things. Freight rates have gone, had gone up. What we have seen as challenges were essentially around freight rates that were more from a packaging film perspective, and to a certain extent, our export volumes are slightly lower because freight rates went through the roof. Some of those freight rates have started to come down also, and therefore, we should be able to do more exports going forward on the packaging film side. I don't think we saw very large challenges because of freight rates in the chemicals business overall. Some of our contracts with customers are also at factory, so really, some of those don't matter to us.
The point, Dhruv, is that while there is some elasticity on that, it is not perfectly elastic with freight rates in terms of pre-buying that happened.
When the rates are high-
I don't have the data point in terms of whether it was happening last time and why is it not happening this time, but I'm not really able to comment on that.
Yeah. I'm asking because when the freight rates are high, that means availabilities are concerned, and people are uncertain about the availability in future, and so they start pre-buying.
The higher could also be because of certain disruptions in supply chain, in shipping routes, in Red Sea issue, the Middle East issue. So there could be various reasons for freight rate highs. It is not necessarily just because of demand and supply only.
Mm, got it. And so secondly, you don't give this generally, but, in your chemical business, this time the, as you said, the margin impact is also because of the unabsorbed depreciation. If possible, if you can give the EBITDA number for Q4 and Q1.
Again, so we only share the numbers that are required regularly. We don't go out and do the EBITDA number. On a company as a whole basis, you can still calculate the number.
Yeah, but for the quarter, it becomes a bit difficult given the capitalization that would have happened. So it would make more... I mean, make it more readable, otherwise the impact seems accentuated, so that is the reason. But, whatever is comfortable. Thank you.
Like I, like I said, I think the drag on this is roughly about, 1.7%-1.8% on the chemical business, right? In terms of what margin we have posted versus what we should have if that, the higher depreciation would not have been there.
So QoQ decline would have only been about 2-odd%, 1.5%-2%?
Yeah, Q versus annual.
Q versus annual. Okay, got it. Yeah. Thank you so much. That helps. Bye.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rohan Gupta from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, sir. Thanks for the follow-up question. Sir, on this pharma intermediate, so we mentioned it last year that now over next two to three years, we are expecting the pharma business contribution to go up to maybe 20% plus kind of number. We were expecting a significant pickup, and lot of work has already been done in pharma. Just wanted to get some update on that, how that part of the business is picking up?
I think a couple of products have shown recent traction, Rohan. I think even in the Q1 number, our pharma overall number is higher, but, we are also to a certain extent, batched out. So as we see more regular orders on some of these, we will probably see, some positive traction. But yes, two products have seen very good traction in Q1.
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing remarks.
Thank you, everyone. I hope we've been able to answer some of your questions. I wish that each one of you remain safe and healthy. If you have any further questions, we would be happy to be of assistance. We hope to have your valuable support on a continued basis as we move ahead. On behalf of the management, I once again thank you for taking time to join us on this call. Bye-bye.
On behalf of Batlivala & Karani Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.