Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Q3 CY 2023 earnings conference call of Huhtamaki India Limited, hosted by ICICI Securities. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Jain.
Thanks, Nirav. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining on Huhtamaki India Limited Q3 CY 2023 results conference call. We have Huhtamaki India management on the call, represented by Mr. Dhananjay Salunkhe, Managing Director, Mr. Jagdish Agarwal, Executive Director and Chief Financial Officer. I would like to invite Mr. Dhananjay to initiate with the opening remark, post which we will have Q&A session. Over to you, sir.
Yep, thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. This is our third investor call, and this is in line with our promise and, what we made in last, you know, six months ago, that we would like to engage with, our various stakeholders. And I'm again, happy to be here, to kind of take you through to the, last quarter as well as year-on-year performance, what are our strategies, and then, of course, engage with you on, this various aspect of, what, what we are doing. And you would have seen... So before we start, any further discussion, let me have a, disclaimer of our, safe harbor statement that whatever we discuss is not really anything, like a forward-looking statement and so on. So that's, I would like to put it on record.
Coming to the performance of Q3. What came out very clearly that our performance in terms of bottom line, that is, EBIT, PBT and EPS improved, improved significantly quarter-over-quarter as well as year-over-year. That is basically giving a very strong indication of our strategic positioning, what we have taken in terms of driving the sustainable business. However, the overall volumes continue to be challenging. At the same time, you would observe that quarter-over-quarter, there is a slight improvement in the volumes, and they are clearly falling in line in terms of the strategy what we have made for our long-term sustainable growth.
Our investment in terms of operations and technology continues to be a focused area, and that's something which I will put little more insights when I come back after handing over to Jagdish for the financial update. Overall, we are going in a right direction, and that is, as we said earlier as well, this is going to be backed up by our important focus on innovation and offering sustainable packaging solutions to the industry. That motivation, that inspiration is coming from certain aspects where we are getting recognized for the awards for the best packaging. Last quarter, we received three awards from IFCA Star Awards 2023. We received award for recyclable bulk bag for having their exceptional drop resistance.
We got an award for certain specific tactile effect on pressure-sensitive labels and soft touch. So, certain focuses what we are giving on innovation are clearly also are recognized by the industry. So while I come back to you with more details on our innovation, I will hand it over to Jagdish Agarwal, our CFO and Executive Director, for taking us through the financial highlights, and then I will come back again.
Thank you.
Over to you, Jagdish.
Thank you, Dhananjay. Good afternoon, everyone. Again, a pleasure to present the financial performance of Huhtamaki India Limited for the third, third quarter and the year so far. However, before presenting the same, considering that the holiday season is about to begin in India, I would like to start by wishing everyone on this call safe and happy holidays. We are ending the festival of light, I hope it brings happiness and hope to one and all. Let me now move to the business performance of Huhtamaki. As regards the key financial indicator, the volume continued to remain under pressure in Q3, impacting the top line on YoY basis, though we have started seeing improvement on quarter-on-quarter basis. However, the bottom line has shown significant improvement for both Q3 as well as for nine months, YTD.
This is a result of continued focus on operational efficiency, mix, and partially due to stabilization in the input prices. In spite of top line contraction by almost 15% in Q3 on YoY basis to INR 4.44 billion, the EBITDA has nearly doubled to INR 488 million in third quarter. For nine months, while the top line has shrunk by around 15% to INR 18.96 billion, the EBITDA has increased by 15% to INR 1.48 billion. EBIT for the quarter at 379 million, compared to just INR 40 million is what we had on YoY basis. Similarly, profit for the tax for the quarter stands at 304 million, against a loss of 47 million year-on-year basis.
On nine-month basis, EBIT has improved to INR 1.1 billion, again, up from INR 636 million, and PBT has improved significantly to INR 862 million, as compared to INR 399 million. Other than the reasons cited just now, the improvement in EBIT and PBT is also driven by lower depreciation. So as you all know, that we have changed our fixed assets useful life from January 2023. That is a positive impact on our depreciation charge for the nine months by INR 228 million. And for third quarter, it has impacted positively INR 88 million.
Net profit for the quarter at INR 323 million has improved to 5% of sales. If we look at YoY basis, it was a meager 0.01%, or four... 0.4 million on similar quarter last year. For the nine-month period, net profit has improved to INR 822 million from INR 328 million. This represents 4.3% of sales, as compared to 1.5% in the corresponding period in the previous year. However, this is partially driven by one-off reversal for uncertain tax provisions of past periods in couple of quarters in this year. EPS for the quarter stands at INR 4.27 per share, substantially higher on YoY basis. And for nine-month period, EPS stands at INR 11.16, again, significantly higher on YoY basis. Like Dhananjay talked about that when we compare our results either on YoY basis or quarter-over-quarter basis, extremely improved performance, except the top line.
Moving on to the debt and liquidity position, net debt has reduced by INR 1.82 billion on YoY basis. This reduction has helped improve overall liquidity. Debt equity ratio at around 0.3% is an improvement over 0.4% witnessed so far in the last three quarters. Short-term borrowings have significantly reduced on account of prepayment or lower drawdowns from the lines. Liquidity is strong as we have sizable limits, which were mostly unutilized at the end of the quarter. Working capital is a standout this year, with all the boxes getting ticked into green. The receivables are decreasing, inventories reducing, the payables are a bit higher, mostly because a higher outlay for our capital expenditure. Overall, cash position has improved greatly and as a consequence of improving the net cash flow position from operating activities.
To sum up the financial performance, I would like to say that we are on the right trajectory, and all the measures taken in the past year or so have now started yielding results, which is apparent from the improved financial performance of the company on almost all the parameters. Also, I want to highlight a key, you know, points before I hand it over to Dhananjay. Key focus area, where we are focusing, one of them is operational efficiencies. We continue to focus on the footprint optimization, cost optimization, supply chain sourcing optimization, efficiency, and overall process optimization. This is now the core of our strategy, and we believe this will enable us to remain focused and drive responsible and profitable growth. The number two point which I want to highlight is corporate governance and risk management.
Our commitment to strong corporate governance is in line with letter and intent of law and regulation, and is second to none. Our board of directors provides a robust oversight, which helps ensure that our business decisions align with the interests of the shareholders. I would like to place on record my gratitude to the entire board in this regard, and personally, it has been a great learning experience for me, interacting with the highly knowledgeable board, helping enhance my vision as well. And the third point is sustainability. The increasing importance of sustainability is not lost on us, and we are cognizant of our responsibilities to reduce our footprint with a positive contribution to the entire ecosystem in which we operate.
Bluel oop is one of the strategic initiative in this direction to become the first choice in sustainable packaging solutions, and this is a core of our 2030 strategy. The company has always remained committed to its stakeholders, focused on technology-enabled innovations and operational performance, and realization of value for its product by engaging constantly with our customers. We appreciate your continued support and investment in our company. With that, I'll thank you, hand it over to Dhananjay.
Yeah. Thank you, Jagdish. So, you mentioned about our innovation and enterprise-wide bluel oop solution or branding. I would like to kind of expand this further. Just to everyone, if your presentation is open in front of you, I'm referring to a few slides, and this is about slide number eight you can go to. The Huhtamaki blueloop. In last investor calls, also, I kind of given a little bit background about what we are talking about here. The Huhtamaki blueloop is nothing but our entire offering in terms of sustainable packaging product solutions. The Huhtamaki blueloop is basically an enterprise-wide brand, which is aligned with our 2020-2030 strategy, where we are aspiring to become a first choice in sustainable packaging solutions, which will be driven by our investment in technology and the aptitude for operational excellence.
What is our 2030 vision? By 2030, we are really looking from, from packaging converter, which is our core business, definitely, to move to the ... not only from a packaging converter to the packaging technology innovation leader and sustainable packaging solution provider. How would we do that? By introducing game-changing technology and solutions with a world-class efficient manufacturing and supply chain footprint available world globally. These products will be available to our global customers.
What are, what are the products which we are talking about? We are moving from a complex and non-recyclable products to a mono-material laminates, which are designed for recycling. In this area, we are offering four streams: the mono-material-based laminates, polypropylene-based laminates, paper-based laminates, and then PET-based laminates. Basically, those are essentially mono, means one material, which enhance the recyclability.
Though these products are simple, as I said, they are mono-material, and most of them come with a weight reduction, and which means very important step for environmental preservation, which is a CO2 reduction, and of course, they are recyclable. While all these offerings are on from these products, very important thing what they ensure that it ensures the protection, which is required for food packaging and the packaging of daily essentials in terms of barrier properties. As I said, they are recyclable, and then in a market like India, we also cannot ignore the affordability of it. So they are affordable in terms of competitive pricing against the transformative alternatives. So last time, we talked about the investments which are upcoming in our Silvassa unit, and we are very close to starting the equipment.
So as the new equipment starts, we are also parallelly and equally focused on developing the strong projects pipeline, working with our customers in terms of... and those are in domestic market. Those projects are also in international markets. We are also studying various packaging machines available in our customer lines to ensure that our blueloop offerings also work on their machines, so that it enhances and it enables the smooth transition to the new product offerings. So, Jagdish talked about how we are really putting our strategy in place to make sure that we have a sustainable business. While I spoke about innovation, which is sustainable packaging products, and we are also equally focusing on making those sustainable products sustainably.
That is where the sustainability is coming in picture, and very important from our achieving our 2030 strategic vision. On sustainability part, we are focusing on, on, climate actions. We are focusing on sustainability by design. In terms of our infrastructure, we are talking about how do we preserve or conserve the resources. So on climate actions, we are working on reducing our electricity consumption, optimizing consumption. We are looking at the reducing the wastages by introducing new ways of working, and then using the renewable resources or, you know, the natural resources for the energy. Our new structure or building in Ambernath plant, I think we have, we will be already launched that is already Silver LEED green building certification.
So all these actions are going to help us to create that sustainable business model sustainably. So, a lot happening, and, we really appreciate your patience hearing and looking forward to engaging a conversation where we can, take, questions and, answer to your satisfaction. So thank you very much. I appreciate your support to Huhtamaki India, and, back to Sanjesh to kind of start the question and answers.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two.
Can I ask, how many people are there on call?
Sir, we have around 80 +.
Okay. Thank you.
If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, you may press star and one to ask the question. First question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Institutional. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you, sir, for the opportunity. Sir, my first question is, sir, of the sequential growth of 6.6%, so this is led by your realizations or by the volumes?
So, sequentially, if you see quarter two to quarter three, I mean, it's a mix of both. So we have definitely, you know, improved our volumes in certain pockets, where we had taken this strategic position. Yeah, so the volume growth is around 8%, whereas because realization, I would say, we took, because the commodity has started going down. So in fact, we have to kind of pass on the certain raw material changes to our customers. So it's, like, driven by volume growth.
Okay. And sir, what would be the sustainable tax rates for CY 2024 and CY 2025?
Can you repeat your question?
Sir, what would be the sustainable tax rate? Tax rates, sir, which we can take for CY 2024 and CY 2025.
You are talking of financial year 2024, 2025, right?
Yes. Yes.
We opted for 100% JS, so we are into the 25% tax regime. At this point of time, we have a visibility that we'll go into the tax bracket, unless if some new judgment comes, and then we'll have, you know, like in this year, we had a certain reversals of uncertain tax position. That is in favor to us. Otherwise, we'll be into the 25% tax bracket. We would expect to continue that.
Okay. Sir, sir, what would be the current utilization of our plant, the current run rate?
We have various footprints. We have a flexibles manufacturing, we have a pressure-sensitive label manufacturing and at various locations. Utilization ranges from 55%-65%, depending upon the various locations. But overall, I would say around 60%.
Sir, 60% last quarter also was the same figure. This quarter also, like, roughly, we are at almost at that level only.
Right.
Okay. And, sir, this blueloop brand, I believe, sir, so this kind of... So there are many materials or products of the similar, you can say, of type, like the blueloop. So how is Huhtamaki differentiable in terms of their, like, brand and quality into this brand? And currently, sir, as you had mentioned earlier also, that around 20%-25% products are sold by this blueloop brand. So what is the number like for the next two years only we are targeting to take this around from 20%-25%? And how this will improve your margin trajectory going ahead.
So I think you have asked many question at the same time, like three, so I'm trying to remember. So first thing is that, you know, the overall blueloop is basically... By the way, I mean, Huhtamaki is clearly known as a leader in industry for quality and service, and that remains. With the help of a blueloop, it would be, we will be offering certain products which are basically in a mono-material category, and those are the investment that we are making. So in a layman's term, I would say, without getting into too much technical, there is a new film manufacturing process called MDO, which is machine direction orientation or oriented.
So that process will be used by Huhtamaki, which is not common across, but we have our own patented formulations to improve upon the product offerings. And that is why we have created our own brand, which is called blueloop, which is basically a circularity like designed for circularity, because it enhances the recyclability. And the last point what you asked, if I remember correctly, was how the margins will play along. So basically, as you see that we are definitely getting into a film manufacturing as well, which is kind of a backward integration. So there will be no combination of film margins and conversion margins. So there is definitely potential.
Okay. And sir, this current margins, so currently, sir, we are witnessing that majority of the commodity prices, with the rise in crude, they have started to move up. So do you see any sort of a impact in the coming quarters in the margins? So current margins of, like, 6.5%-7%, can they maintain, or there could be a risk on to the downside if the crude price, like, goes up or stays at the current level?
So, see, as we work, has to work very closely with our customers, and there are mechanisms. So essentially, I would say, like when we see in last few quarters, that prices are going down, we have to pass it on to our customers very transparently. Similarly, if upcoming, only thing is it, it doesn't happen very quickly. We have certain, mechanisms, placed with our customers, which kind of, I would say, protects, protects us on both sides. When it goes down, customers get protected. When it goes up, we get protected.
Okay, so these margins can be maintained, like, that's what just I wanted to understand.
It depends, you know, always, this is basically how it's like, not only one play, right? It's raw material, productivity, and then the capacity utilization and all these aspects. Four, five levers are—they're coming together, right? It's only not about the crude, crude oil or, only sale prices, right? So it's, it's a whole gamut.
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. That's it.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Nilesh Shah from Arrow Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, good evening.
Hi, good evening.
Congratulations on a good set of earnings and operational efficiency despite lower sales. So congratulations for that. I have a couple of questions. My first question is that we have shifted three plants, small size plants, to different larger facilities. So what do we intend to do with the existing old infrastructure that we have? That is the first point. Second, if you can throw some highlight on what we decide to do with the proceeds of the sale of the Thane land, if and when it happens. Is there any clarity on how and by when we can conclude the deal? And the third, since we are doing backward integration and starting to manufacture the new films, what is the kind of production capacity that we are looking at setting up? So that will be my three questions, please. Thank you.
Okay. So the first question, maybe I'll also invite Jagdish to answer on a couple of them later. So, these three small plants that we consolidated in our larger plant. So out of three, two plants we had leased out, so we have kind of surrendered the lease accordingly according to the terms and conditions. And then we have one plant, very, very, very small infrastructure available. So of course, we are taking a view in terms of our network optimization plan. We will take a call, what is required to be done with that small infrastructure. Proceeds of the land, definitely, I will invite Jagdish later, but before that, I'll just answer the production capacity.
So what we have invested now is, per se, minuscule of what our overall requirement of our films. So we will be definitely looking at, and that's what I will keep on saying, that network optimization, it will be our one of the key strategy going forward. So right now, we have invested in one plant, which will be, adding somewhere around, 10%-12% of our, you know, requirement of, the films which we buy from outside. And then, on basis the overall business case, we keep on evaluating the, you know, further capacity additions. And I will invite you-
Give an idea in terms of number of volume in metric tons or anything of that sort. Is there a number that we can attribute to that 12%?
Not really, Nilesh. I, I'm sorry, is it Nilesh, right? If I-
Yeah, Nilesh, that's right.
So look, our products are basically a combination of three, like, you know, in the square meter, then the grammage, and then it forms tonnage. So it purely depends upon the product mix, what we make. So our products also are ranging from 70 micron, 50 micron or 60 micron to 120 micron, or even some tube laminates like products are basically 200 microns. So it depends purely on, you know, product mix available. So it's very difficult to give a number such as tonnage or so.
Fine, I understand. Just to add on to that, are we looking at only our self-consumption, or are we going to sell this blueloop technology films to other manufacturers as well?
So, clearly it's a self-consumption to be. That's—in fact, that's going to be our put, this patented technology. And at this moment, it's clearly that it is for self-consumption. But yes, we will be exploring the franchise model, not selling to any technology, but franchise model. Because, you know, as a overall ecosystem in India, and not only in India, elsewhere, customers definitely would have a certain requirement from their purchasing policies. So that is where we will be exploring those options. But at this moment, it's clearly that it's a self-consumption, but we may explore a franchise model going forward later on, but not now.
Thank you. Nilesh, sorry to interrupt you. I will request you to come back in the question queue for a follow-up question.
But I think he had a question on this, proceeds of Thane land. So I think, with a due fairness, maybe Jagdish can answer that.
Okay. So thanks, Nilesh, for asking for that question. We still are into deliberation state, and as of now, we have not firmed up that how we are going to utilize that money. First, our endeavor and focus is that we want to close the deal and do that announcement, and definitely we'll come back once we'll have that, firm commitment in place.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. I request to all the participants, please restrict to two questions per participant. If time permit, please come back in the question queue for a follow-up. Next question is from Bharat Sheth, from Quest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, can you give, elaborate little more exactly on this Silvassa new facility that we'll be starting, is meant for what exactly? It's, for backward integration of the film or it is... And second thing, when you say that is MDO, when we'll introduce this blueloop, so how other machinery and other plants will be able to take it up, or again, we need to refurbish those plant or replace the plant? If you can give little more color on that.
Sure. So, you see this investment in Silvassa is basically for manufacturing of the films.
Okay.
Which will be typically blown film lines as well, and this is MDO, which is Machine Direction Oriented film manufacturing. So this comes as essentially a film, which will be definitely used on our existing machines. So there is no need of adding any further infrastructure in terms of printing or conversion. Okay, so there is no need.
In fact, our endeavor is that we are going, we are developing these films in such a way, and our product in such a way that, in fact, when we go to the marketplace with our customers, and that's what I indicated, that we are proactively taking trials at a customer's packaging machine, so that they also do not have to change any infrastructure at their place in terms of machines or in terms of accessories and in terms of productivity. So that's how our endeavor is.
Okay. Sir, is this film necessarily different from this BOPP or it's the same kind of a film?
As you said, BOPP, it's a biaxially oriented polypropylene. It's a one type of film. There are 100 types of films, right? So-
Right.
Here, on this machine, this is basically meant for PE, polyethylene, basic, and which will be essentially mono-material and so on. So that's how it is.
Okay. And when do we expect, and what could be the potential, asset turn, if one can and how much investment we have made in this plant?
So, investment, this is basically, you know, we at this moment, you know, we are just in the process of investing, so not able to give an exact number. We are looking at next quarter for some startups.
So it will be a trial run or commercial with?
Yeah, it's kind of because it's a new technology, patented technology, so the gestation period or, you know, trial periods are slightly higher. But yes, we are looking at kind of a start. And then there are certain already commercialized product portfolios, which we do it from either from our imported, you know, because in, in elsewhere in the world, they're already started, so we import and then... So there are certain products which are already validated for customer, which will be, like, commercialized here.
Okay. Any color on the asset turn of this investment?
Not really, because as I said, we are just introduced or invested that, so it will have to be kind of, you know, going forward. It depends upon how we are able to convert our customers, right?
And last- Is it fair to understand that we'll be converter or film manufacturing as well as converter also, as well as we may be selling to other converter? So this will have a, wherever we do conversion, we have this film margin as well as conversion margin. And wherever we sell to third parties, it will be a margin of the film, correct?
You can say that.
Okay. Thank you, and all the best, sir.
Thank you. A request to all the participants, please restrict to two questions per participant. Next question is from the line of Saurabh Patwa from Quest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Thanks a lot for taking the question, sir. Am I audible?
Yes.
Yes, you are.
Sir, so just wanted to have thoughts on a few things. One is, when we see your nine-month number and or even if we see the third quarter number and compare that with the pre-COVID year, which is 2019, the revenue number remains, looks similar. However, the EBITDA margins have compressed very sharply. Of course, part of it is also linked with your gross margin compression. But, so the first part of the question was that, how much scope you believe there is still left, in terms of gross margin improvement? And, secondly, you also highlighted that, the mono-material has a single layer. That means it has have a lower volume. So structurally, are we going to see lower volumes and higher realization?
2019. So, okay. So I mean, it's, it's a the more we talk about it, you know, it look like that we are talking about a forward-looking statement, and which is, which we normally don't, don't talk about that. It's very difficult to say that what kind of a room we have, what kind of margins we are going to have in future. But if you look at our last three quarter performance, and there is a good improvement, and there, there are reasons for that. It's not about that we have a, you know, the input prices are so softening and all, but, there are a lot of strategic initiatives and there are a lot of long-term initiatives which as a company we took, to ensure that we remain competitive in the market.
The talk on official efficiencies, the talk on footprint on optimizations, that, you know, talk about looking into each and every spend, what we do to the company. And having said that, if you compare that 7.6% EBITDA, what we have in this quarter, third quarter, 2023, and if you compare the same, it was a 3.3%, on third, third quarter, 2022. So there's a significant improvement, if we talk about that, compared to, last year and this year. And, and we believe that, you know, our endeavor is that we want to remain, like if we talk about our aspirations for 2020, we are saying that we would like to grow, very aggressively in top line.
At the same time, we have aspirations to be in a double-digit growth margin, double-digit EBIT margins. That's our journey, and that's aspirations we have. Now, in between, it's very difficult to comment on any number, but I think that talk about our intent and that talk about our performance, what we have in the last couple of quarters.
Okay. So again, so that leads my second question actually, which is, which I asked already. Like, so when you say that a part of the growth will be driven by blueloop, which is single layer and which will have lower volumes, which you highlighted at the beginning of the call, so does that essentially also mean that since we are also targeting a larger, sharper revenue growth, the pricing would be substantially higher?
Yeah. So I think, let me, as I said earlier, the blueloop talks about three things together, right? I mean, let me remind that. One is about the protection, because our products are expected to provide the protection, which is a barrier property, right? I mean, for the food packaging or in detail essentials packaging, there are two requirements, OTR and, WVTR. OTR is oxygen transmission rate, versus WVTR is water vapor transmission rate, right? So those are important. So while we offer the same protection to the brand owners, which is our esteemed customers. What we said, we keep the products will be recycled, recyclable, which is where that mono-material comes in, and then affordability. So essentially, in order to make those affordable and because they are mono-material, there will be definitely a reduction in the plastic intensity.
So essentially, the plastics will come down, and that's the value proposition from our—for our customer, that they reduce the plastic. At the same time, the brand, the protection for the product remains the same. And because there is a reduction in the plastics, and so overall, this one, there is a affordability. At the same time, so as you said, maybe let me preempt your question. You are looking at volume, tonnages, probably they may come down, but look, we ultimately the square meters will be same. And because we will be using more extensive materials, that is where the realization might be better.
Understood. And so just one clarification, when you mentioned, in answer to the previous participant question, that your volume growth was 8% and your capacity utilization is same as last quarter. So does that mean that, as you are trying to create a market for blueloop, you are importing some bit of it, and that's how, that's why this, there is this gap between... For a similar, capacity utilization, volume growth is higher or it's something else?
Not really. So the import is very small, and that's basically on a very only one particular category of a product, and that does not really influence the overall capacity utilization. But at the same time, as we mentioned earlier, we are having four-pronged approach. So operational excellence or, you know, re-unlocking the productivity internally is definitely showing certain results, right? So while I said capacity utilization into various plant locations, so if, you know, certain plants are now doing really well, so that it's realizing the productivity benefits. So overall, I would say the latest number looks to be 60%-63% on capacity utilization, which is slightly up than the previous quarter, whereas volumes have gone up by 8%. So it's like a combination of productivity improvement and the capacity, slight improvement in capacity.
At the same time, maybe one point I would like to kind of explain this. As a converter, we have a set of processes, like we have a printing, we have a lamination, we have a conversion, which is slitting and so on. So typically, we look at a capacity utilization at one important operation, which is printing, right? So that's where the. But as a whole, gamut of the entire company, so capacity utilization combines all other equipment as well, right? So that's how you need to calibrate.
Understood, sir. Just, just last thing, then I'll join back the queue. It's on the slide 12 on blueloop, you have mentioned, highlighted about projects in international markets, which forms part of the pipeline. Can you just throw some light on it?
Yeah, so-
Exactly.
We are having large export-based customers from India we service. There are projects which are basically with existing our export customers we are running. At the same time, as I said in the previous call as well, this is a global project, so we are investing parallelly in Germany, we are investing in India, and we have invested in Turkey, we are invested in Thailand.
So the projects are also emanating from there, those countries also, which are kind of required to be supplied from India and so on. So, you know, there is a lot of good collaboration across, and so that's how. There are certain global customers we have. I mean, I can't name those customers, but we service them from India globally for certain products, and then certain products are serviced by our global other regions to even to India. This is the product structures and constructions. So, there are good pipeline available there.
Understood. Thanks a lot, sir. We'll join back.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is [audio distortion] Harshad from RoboCapital. Please go ahead.
Hello.
Hello.
Yeah, sir. Sir, I want to understand where the industry is headed, like what the competitors are working on, and what special the company is doing to add value to the customer? Like, how it will get ahead in the competition?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So if I understood your question, you would want to understand more on, flexible packaging industry, market situation or-
Yes, sir.
And then what competitive activities? So, then look, maybe let me start with the overall industry construct. As you can see that, we have a mix, erratic or I would say mixed monsoon, so which is definitely every company is looking at it very cautiously, how the volumes are going to get developed. At the same time, there is a mixed signal, because of these things. So one, we are seeing certain volumes uptake on a, you know, on a, on a, I would say, lower product lower pyramid, which is which is clearly seen as a customer or consumers are downtrading, where we are seeing some volume. But overall, there is a, you know, cautiousness, and which is again reflecting on to the flexible packaging industry.
So, definitely, flexible packaging industry, if you see for, for last 10-12 years, have been kind of pushed to the commoditization, and that is where we as a Huhtamaki come in picture, because we keep on raising the bar in terms of innovation and creating the options to the customers, which are basically better. So from a competitive activities, of course, competition, we don't really, look at from a price, from a, from a volume perspective, but we consider ourselves, from what we, take to the market, from an innovative packaging solutions offering. So, that is where we are trying to, play. And, as I said, we have that our strategic intent, and we call it where to play, and that where to play is clear, clearly articulated.
As a global, we are a food packaging solution company and delicatessens, and that is how we are aligning our aspirations. We are defining categories, we are defining our products, we are defining the structures which we are stronger, and are having the ability to create differentiated offerings, and that is where we will be continue to play. We do not intend to Yeah, thank you. We do not intend to play in areas where there are already commoditization happen.
Okay, sir. Sir, and can you share some light on blue loop?
Blueloop.
Yeah, blueloop. Because the line was cut, so can you...?
Yeah, I think we had three to four questions on blueloop, so maybe to be fair, I will again explain. So the blueloop is basically our enterprise-wide product offering, and this is a branded solutions on a sustainable packaging, which are basically having an IP, you know, innovative products which are patented. And we have invested equipments in our Silvassa plant, and these products are basically will give us, give our customers the affordability, recyclability, and the protection required for their products without compromising quality and, you know, service. And this is basically coming from a sustainable product offering. So, this will have a lesser plastic, so it reduces the carbon, you know, emissions and so on. So that's how the overall offering from our, in, blueloop.
Okay, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. I request all the participants, please restrict to two questions per participant. Next question is from the line of Vipul Kumar Shah from Sumangal Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. So, three to four years back, if I remember correctly, our margins, EBITDA margin, used to be in the range of 10%-12%. And, so we have come down very drastically, and we are recovering very gradually. So, my question is, when can we expect that type of margin, and what is the roadmap for the recovery of EBITDA margin?
I think this question was answered by Jagdish earlier, that aspirationally, yes, we want to go to double-digit EBITDA, EBIT margin in near future. And that, that is what we are investing into the new technology and innovation. We are looking at unlocking our internal efficiencies, you know, operational productivities, and so on. So, very difficult to put a date to it, but of course, I mean, we are, you know, thriving or striving to achieve that as soon as possible or as early as possible.
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Priyank Parakh from Abakkus Asset Manager LLP. Please go ahead. Priyank, may I request you to unmute your line and go ahead with the question, please? Due to no response, we move on to the next participant. Next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Co. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Namaskar, sir, and thank you for this opportunity. Just taking that discussion forward, as you mentioned that we are in the annual of improving our margins and going to that double-digit number. So, I think, so the employee benefit expenses as a percentage of sales have remained elevated over a period of time. So, what steps are there in the annual or the rationalization steps for as a percentage of employees' cost or the percentage of sales can be lowered going ahead?
This is a good observation, I would say. So, so we also realized that, and that's why, if you see, we have taken certain strategic initiatives, and one of them was basically footprint rationalization, and that's what you would have seen announcement of, you know, consolidation of a larger, smaller plants into large. So which should help us to kind of improve upon our, you know, synergies. The second part is, yes, I mean, as we said, we took a strategic position in first quarter of this year, and despite... And you can see that that strategic position helped us to revitalize our trajectory in terms of EBITDA or EBIT.
But that strategic position, positioning was basically from a different reasons, that in spite of losing volume, we wanted to make sure that we have our, our financials become stronger. And now, riding on this, we are definitely looking at how we grow further... and grow further in terms of volumes, grow further in terms of revenues. And we do that, that's where the, the ratios of, let's say, personal cost per sales will start improving. At the same time, we are in India, and you know the inflationary environment and so on. So it's our responsibility as a large corporate company that, of course, we need to improve our lives of our employees as well. So, we take both actions, in the same breath.
Yeah, and just to add on that, like, if you look at nine months employee cost, we are more or less flat-
Yeah.
in a market where the employee cost inflation is in the range of 8%-9%. So if you look at our nine months data, it's almost flat.
And-
nine and then to-- Yeah.
That, too, with annual increments, I think.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's, let's say, 8%-9% employee cost inflation market.
Sir, the headcounts have also remained the same. Is it a like-to-like comparison when we compare the nine months for 2022 and 2023, the employee cost? Or how should we look into it, as you mentioned that there is no increase?
So, employee headcount has changed. So for example, at the start of the year, we probably had close to 3,000 employees, and now we have around 2,600 or so. There is definitely a reduction of number of employees, around 400, and which emanated from these consolidations and certain natural attrition and so on. So that's how we are also managing on that front.
So actually, sir, that explains, that explains the flattest number for nine months. It is not that we have kept the number low because of containing the employee cost. It is the lower headcounts and that attributed to the lower-
Yeah.
-to the lower employee cost.
That's fair, no? I mean,
No, no. I was just coming to the point which sir, which our CFO explained that it has remained flat. But when you take the like-for-like comparison, it is because of the reasons as explained. It is not that we have kept it flat because of our efficiencies rather. That is my moot point was.
No, I would have slight, maybe, not disagreement, but look, I mean, the employee, probably headcount reduces, but then at the same time, you pay annual increments, you also promote the deserving employees and so on. So there is an increase. There is also inflation, you, like for example, we have almost like, what? 1,800 or more than that, operating people on the shop floors, where their DA keep on changing. And then I think as a fair company or organization, we follow each and every law, which is, you know, law of the land. So that's, that's what the increases or inflationary increases we have to deal with.
How we deal with, so in fact, this is in fact, you can see it in a positive light, that there is a 12%-13% reduction in the employees, and because, of course, there is volume challenge, and then but that's how we are reacting to it, and then, unlocking the productivity. So which adheres well for the, for productivity improvement.
Thank you. I get the request to come back in the question queue for a follow-up question. Next question is from the line of Priyank Parakh from Abakkus Asset Manager LLP. Please go ahead.
Yeah, am I audible?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Just wanted to understand on the blueloop, is it going to replace our existing product, if any, or it is going to be the increment sales?
So, again, a good, good question, and, happy to see that you are thinking very deeply about companies. So it is, it will be mixed, okay? So there will be replacement, and then there will be also, new. So I would say, replacement will be like, you know, largely, because, you know, companies are, kind of going from a multilayer plastic to recyclable plastic. So that definitely is a replacement. At the same time, because this is a very innovative product and can offer certain, barrier properties which are unheard of, I mean, because of the confidentiality product requirement, I can't give you the value, values. But there are certain products which are clearly structures, which are replacing certain, expensive material, and that helps both customers as well as...
So it is going to be replacement and new opportunities, which are not at this moment to us. So that's how I would put it.
Okay. Second question is, is this techno- is this IP going to be owned by our parent, or is it going to be India-specific IP? Like, how is this arrangement going to be?
Parent, parent.
Parent. Okay, so, being an, you know, a technological-driven IP, do we have to pay any sort of royalty or any sort of that thing to our parent, going forward?
We are not entering into any specific contracts about this. We do have any existing agreement in place, which we have signed long back.
Okay. So where I am coming from is the impact on our margins. Like, if the incremental margins we are going to do with blueloop is to be, you know, consumed in form of any fees or royalty, won't have that great effect on our margin, despite being a value-added product.
Sure. We are not signing any new agreement per se on that aspect.
Okay.
... Okay, okay, got it. Yeah. Thank you. That's it, so. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Hiten Boricha from Sequent Investments. Please go ahead. Hiten, may I request you to-
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Sir, lots of my questions have been answered. I just want to understand, as you mentioned, our realization is, sorry, I, utilization is improving. It's at 60%, as well as volume is going up. So, like, what kind of growth we are looking, considering the raw material prices also coming down, but demand is also going up. So what kind of growth we are looking for, let's say, next one or two years?
So look, we still classify ourselves as a derived demand industry, right? I mean, we do not have our own brands, which we can make a marketing campaign and influence the consumption. So essentially, what our customers' consumption patterns actually - defines our growth trajectory. So, providing any guidance or visibility for next two, three, two, couple of years would be difficult. At the same time, as I said in the past conversation, definitely we took some strategic position at the start of the year, which showed that it is clearly giving us some results.
And we are clear now how do we want to play in India market, which is known for a very huge competitive activity and, you know, the cost consciousness. But within that, we have definitely clarity about what we would-- we need to do to grow our volumes and the revenues. As you said, very clearly, price, the our prices are predominantly decided by the raw material price movement, because we have a lot of- agreements with, you know, our customers. So it's difficult, because raw material prices goes up, revenues, irrespective, revenues goes up, irrespective of volume growth as well. So it's like a vice versa. So at the same time, the moot point is that we have a good clarity on our strategy, how do we want to play, which gives the confidence, from the last three quarters' performance.
Okay. Yeah, yeah. And, sir, one more question on the inventory side. Can you help how, for how much days the inventory we kept in inventory?
It's roughly 30- Less than a month. Less than a month. 28-30 days is typically cycle, and we keep on, keep on adjusting our order cycle based on that.
28 to 30 days, right? Okay, okay.
28, yeah. Yeah, 30 days.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take that as our last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Yeah, Jagdish Agarwal?
I think, again, I just want to, you know, reinforce the same message where we started. Management is taking all steps to ensure that, we continue to perform better. And last three quarters, when we look at that, we are trying to make a significant improvement on that. We'll continue to make, we continue to effort on that. And, I believe there was another question about the days of inventory. And when you talk about days of inventory, so there are a mix of many things. So specifically, when we talk about the FG and, and those kind of inventory, we noted that it's a 20-30 days. Just wanted to clarify that. With, with that, you know, I'll just, now I'll, therefore, you last crack. Yeah.
So, thanks, everyone on call and ICICI, to organize this call. And I could see a lot of questions were revolving around our performance of last quarter, as well as definitely certain things which are happening on the volumes, the blueloop, and the overall trajectory where we are heading for. So, thank you for all these inquisitive questions, and I hope we are able to... We were able to address and answer all of your questions, and we would look forward to continue this journey and as well as continue this engagement with the investors, every quarter. Thank you, and I appreciate all your support.
Thank you very much. On behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you.