Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Symphony Limited Q4 FY 2025 earnings conference call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star and zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over Mr. Aditya Bhartia from Investec Capital Services (India) Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Bhartia.
Thank you, Neeraj. Good evening, everyone. A warm welcome on behalf of Investec India to the conference call of Symphony Limited. This is to discuss the outcome of the board meeting in respect of divestment and monetization of stake in Climate Tech and IMPCO Mexico, sale of technology and Intellectual Property Rights by GSK China to IMPCO, and ESG initiatives. We have with us the senior management team represented by Mr. Achal Bakeri, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. Nrupesh Shah, Managing Director, Corporate Affairs, Mr. Amit Kumar, Group CEO and Executive Director, and Mr. Rajesh Mishra, CEO, International Business. Now, I hand over the call to the management for initial comments and presentation. Thank you, and over to you. Over to Achal Bakeri.
This is Achal Bakeri here. A warm welcome to all participants on this afternoon to the Symphony conference call. We have some important updates which Aditya just spoke about. We have a presentation in that respect, which my colleague Nrupesh Shah will take you through. As usual, the customary safe harbor rules apply. So over to Nrupesh Shah.
Thank you, Achal Bakeri, and good evening to all participants. Thanks for connecting. As announced earlier, we had a board meeting on last Saturday, and in this conference call, we are going to take you through these three outcome of the board meeting. One is approval to explore divesting and monetizing stakes of Symphony India into Climate Technologies, Australia and IMPCO Mexico. Symphony India has 100% equity stake in both the companies, and in turn, Climate Technologies has also a step-down subsidiary based in United States, and Climate Technologies holds 100% stake in that. Second outcome is to sell the technology know-how and IPRs by GSK China to IMPCO Mexico for about $5.1 million. That is close to INR 43 crore. Finally, review of key ESG initiatives.
The first and foremost, the reason for divestment of Climate Technologies, in fact, as many of the fund houses, analysts, and rightly so, were urging that in Climate Technologies, there is a misproportionate capital deployed, and it is dragging the overall performance. There was also a suggestion that in overseas subsidiaries, considering the overall performance, also might be taking management bandwidth and time when there are immense opportunities in India, especially with three initiatives which we have taken in last two, three months and also direct export market. Obviously, as you all know, Climate Technologies is really dragging our return on capital employed. In the current year, Q3, which has not been any different as you can see from the slide deck. As I said earlier, we have succeeded in reducing the storage to less than half vis-a-vis when we acquired.
We have also launched recently series of new products as befitting to that market and also creating the marketing and distribution network, and has also converted it into asset-light company. We expect Climate Technologies to turn around and do decently well down the line as we have demonstrated successfully earlier, recently with GSK China and earlier with IMPCO Mexico. However, directly, indirectly in Climate Technologies, Australia, the total capital employed is about INR 351 crore and figure is available in public domain and announced up to December 31st for trailing 12 months, its turnover was INR 167 crore with a negative EBITDA of INR 21 crore. Coming to IMPCO Mexico, trailing 12 months up to December 31st, top line was INR 187 crore, EBITDA was INR 24 crore, and its capital employed was INR 86 crore.
However, in IMPCO Mexico, normally on December 31st, there is the lowest capital employed. This is the capital employed as on that cut-off date. March 31st and June 30th is the highest capital employed, which hovers to around INR 125 crore. Both 50 giver has guided in this chart that top line is INR 354 crore, EBITDA is INR 3 crore, and capital employed is INR 437 crore, translating into combined ROCE percentage, that is, EBITDA to capital employed, 1%. If we remove these two companies, as it is shown on extremely right-hand side in the last column, the consolidated turnover will be INR 1,164 crore and EBITDA will be INR 264 crore, while capital employed will be merely INR 36 crore, translating into very high double-digit EBITDA ROCE percentage on core capital employed. Another reason is sharpening management bandwidth and focus. Let me show all the points.
By exiting from these two companies, it is to be kept in mind we are exiting from these overseas subsidiaries. There will still be a strong possibility whereby Climate Technologies and IMPCO under new ownership will continue to procure the products from Symphony India as well as GSK China, particularly in Climate Technologies, considering obvious benefits, especially with new geopolitical situation. There is also a possibility about the brand licensing arrangement in both the markets as some of the products are sold under Symphony brand. Importantly, management bandwidth and time, especially of the top management, we wish to devote on highly growth-oriented and profitable segments in domestic market as well as potential overseas exports directly from India, especially to U.S., Brazil, Europe and few other countries.
And why we are saying so and why we have arrived at this conclusion, because in last couple of years, we have taken some major strategic initiatives, whereby in last five quarters, our actual financial performance, especially in Symphony India as well as GSK China, it has been successfully demonstrated. Those initiatives include our entry into adjacent product categories, and they are tabletop cooling appliances as well as kitchen cooling solutions, both selling round the year, and have immense potential to grow profitably. Last year, we have launched innovative storage water heater, which is compressorless. Apart from that, in last three years, through series of initiatives, we have penetrated well in rural and semi-urban market and has a great scope as well as there has been drastic rise in turnover.
There has been strategic initiatives in digital channel, which includes through D2C, e-commerce as well as few other initiatives, and of course, this has been really supported by very conducive summer. As far as US market is concerned, it seems that current geopolitical may be once-in-lifetime opportunity because whether in US or in other global markets, our main competitors are Chinese player. Currently on China, the duty is about 145%, on India it is 26%, assuming over a period of time, duty from China rationalizes. But even if we have a decent arbitrage, even in that respect, Chinese players don't have that kind of profit margin. Even currently as it is, we are competing well, and we may have huge opportunity in that respect. In last couple of weeks, we have also received some direct inquiry in that respect. Of course, that's very early stage.
On top of it, in respect of direct export from India, Symphony Brazil model, that is establishing a trading subsidiary and selling well, has also proved quite successful. This is part one of the update. Part two is sale of technology know-how and nine IPR by GSK China to IMPCO Mexico. Over a period of last couple of years, GSK China developed the technology as well as IPRs, keeping in mind Mexican market and IMPCO's product requirement. In current situation, it has been deemed appropriate by GSK, as well as IMPCO Mexico, to enter into this purchase and sale arrangement at arm's length price of about $5.1 million , that is INR 43.5 crore. That technology and IP has specially developed by GSK Mexico, IMPCO Mexico.
Sale of this technology and IP has really brought in between operational flexibility and this has, in case we register as a GSK type of company, a significant future growth potential in the long term. Of course, Mexico is going to take this transaction fully as a separate entity. By the way, this transaction will also fully optimize the combination of IMPCO Mexico. As far as GSK China is concerned, it will receive certain paper and it doesn't need this fund, be that its working capital or growth. Its current working and internal accruals are sufficient to take care of it. Net of taxes and expenses, this particular debt that China will use to repay the loan to Symphony India. Loans outstanding from GSK China to India was about $60 million as on 1st April 2026.
In that amount, around close to $14 million is due. As of today, the total intercompany outstanding is $49.6 million. As a result of this transaction, the outstanding loan will be partially encashed, which we expect considering GSK China's strong performance to be completely repaid down the line in few quarters out of its internal accruals. By the way, end-to-end, this transaction is also quite tax efficient, fully complying with all the regulatory requirements, including transfer pricing guidelines. Finally, some of the key ESG initiatives because time to time, board was taking stock of major ESG initiatives, and it has been taken note that the government structure is very robust, fully aligning with the best practices, much above the regulatory requirements. Key committees, that is Audit Committee and Nomination and Remuneration Committee, comprising fully of independent directors.
Each committee has four independent directors, and this is the status since long. Five out of nine directors on the board are independent directors, and three, that is one-third directors, are women directors. As many of you may be aware, it has been the practice of Symphony Limited that other than sales and purchase transactions between Symphony Limited subsidiary or inter-company among subsidiaries, as well as managerial remuneration, both of which are absolutely normal course of business, there is zero related party transactions. In addition to regulatory requirement, along with mandatory BRSR, since 2023-2024, Symphony Limited is publishing the integrated annual report providing comprehensive view of ESG initiatives and performance in line with the best global practice. Again, for better transparency and governance, more than 25 ESG policies are in public domain, again, in line with the best global practices.
Our product per se itself is environment-friendly and management of environmental footprint through periodical life cycle assessment of the products is also being done quite systematically and ultimately helping in also optimizing the commercial performance. Symphony Limited has, for three consecutive years, including current year, received the certificate for Great Place to Work, and every time with improved scoring. It is also evident by industry-leading improvements in ESG score by independent external ESG rating agencies. Thank you. With this, we are open for Q&A.
Thank you very much. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles.
Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The first question is from Shraddha Kapadia from SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.
Hello, am I audible?
You are.
Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to ask the question. My first question would be with regards to the ROCE. First things, actually you have highlighted that there will be a huge ramp-up in the ROCE which is expected. Is there any internal target to which high ROCE you expect in this fix?
Yeah. So obviously there are internal targets, not only for ROCE but also for the top line, bottom line, including for respective product and sub-product and also geographically. But again, as per our IR policy, they are not in public domain.
Okay, sir. Also if you could-
Yeah, but what I mentioned in that presentation, as it is where it is as on December 31st, the ROCE on the core capital employed, assuming CT Australia and IMPCO are not there, it would have been 583%. And that too considering, EBITDA of INR 250 crore on standalone basis as on December 31st for trailing 12 months.
Sure.
Those are historical numbers.
Yes, sir. Okay. Also, if you could just help with, as we are now majorly focusing on India, Europe, Brazil, which is there. Is there any expected revenue share which we expect the international markets to reach in one way or something?
Yeah, absolutely. We really haven't set a target for that, but we believe that considering that as of now with CT and IMPCO, CT and IMPCO are not there, the revenue from international would be significantly reduced. The upside is going to be much higher in terms of percentage and with the opportunities that have presented themselves in the U.S., this could be a really big upside. In Brazil also, it's a very large market, which in the last two, three years we have been able to grow in. We expect to continue to grow in that market. I think collectively, all these markets really do present big opportunities. I would not put a number to it. But as we go along the way, the numbers will sort of present themselves.
As conveyed in the presentation and gave overview, we are not ruling out the possibility that, as well as Climate Technologies under the new ownership may like to continue sourcing of the products as it is currently being done from India due to advantages apart from the possibility of Symphony brand licensing in these two territories. What we are trying to convey is maybe we are exiting from these two companies, not necessarily from these two territories.
Got it. Okay. Sure. That is clear. Thank you. Also, if you could just highlight the model. Yeah.
Follow-up question.
Okay, sure. Yes. Okay.
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from line of Aditya Bhartia. Please go ahead. Aditya, am I across to you? You can proceed with your question, please.
Hello, am I audible?
Go ahead. Yes.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Just a couple of questions from my side. First, we wanted to understand at what stage are we in terms of monetizing stake in these subsidiaries. Have we initiated the process or is it a thought that we are having at this stage that this is something we should be doing and the process would get initiated and could take a few months to get consummated?
Let me answer that. This decision we have arrived at after extensive discussion and deliberation, considering all the aspects as to what is in the best interest of the company as well as shareholder, and that deliberation has taken place over a period of several months, and then it has come to the board for its final approval. Before putting to the board, we had also done the beauty parade of several IB bankers.
Now, IB banker has been already decided, and their terms of references, including the milestone in terms of the timeframe of various steps as well as their commercials, have been also decided. By the time of appointment of IB banker, they have also informally got some sense from the likely buyers and finally. They will conclude the process.
Understood.
This is already wrapped up very preliminary discussions which have taken place with the banker. I think it is very, okay, we will appreciate that the research, I mean, these are very sensitive issues that we highlighted and recent signs from the investment banker and they may be asked there.
I think that you kind of highlighted that the market of U.S., Brazil, Japan and China being competitive. Could there be some non-compete agreements that you may have to enter into, especially in U.S., given the competitive scenario?
Yeah. That is rather a wrong question. It is too premature to say this bit, Aditya. It will depend on how the negotiations unfold with the potential prospective buyers. Who knows how this is going to develop. We will try and retain the opportunity to sell in those markets. But let us see how things evolve. Even if we can sell under the same umbrella, it is preventing no non-compete will prevent us from selling to other customers or retailers in that market who will import from us directly from India.
Sure. Just one last question. We have been Symphony as a company that was targeting overall air cooler market globally. Now we want to be centered largely in Indian market. Is there any additional-
No, Aditya. I will correct you there. That is not at all the picture. Nothing changes as far as Symphony is concerned. We will still continue to pursue opportunities internationally. As Vipin brother said, there may be a non-compete clause. At the very worst, let's say there is a non-compete which we are glued into. At the very worst, we are a global company. We want to be represented in the world. We are then focusing on markets which are less regulated than the area of Australia and Mexico, which are mainly the U.S. and Brazil. We are in no way at all defocusing from the international markets. But the way we will address those markets has changed, rather than having subsidiaries there, rather manufacturing presence there. We will pursue the export route.
If we feel it is growing a category in a country, we have to establish a subsidiary, merely like a trading subsidiary, as we have done in Brazil, then we will do that. But under no circumstances are we taking the eye off the international market. We are absolutely going to pursue that.
It will help us put our management graduates in a more focused manner on some of the larger global growth markets, including U.S., Brazil, and some more. So this is just making sure that our bandwidth is at the right place where we are seeing larger growth opportunities. So it is management bandwidth time as well as much better capital efficiency.
Also-
Yes, capital efficiency.
Aditya, let me also add, these are all going to be profitable opportunities, more profitable opportunities. Especially, with the current tariff situation emerging, the opportunities that have sort of presented themselves or have come knocking on our door in the US market could be enormous.
Perfect. That makes it very clear. Does that also mean that we will be becoming more aggressive and more focused on India growth opportunities? We could look at opportunities beyond our existing product categories and start looking at Symphony in a slightly kind of larger manner.
That too, of course. We've sort of negotiated that as well with the introduction of water heaters, which are not really an adjacency. They are sort of counter seasonal. The adjacent categories of tower fans and our tabletop range that we launched about a year ago. We are certainly diversifying the basket of products for the Indian market while pursuing opportunities for coolers internationally.
Perfect. That's very helpful. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from Rana Rahul from Alton Securities. Please go ahead.
Good evening, gentlemen, and thanks for the opportunity.
Yeah, good evening.
I will start with what Aditya was referring to. Now that you all have decided to exit Mexico and Australian entities, you talked about other markets that you wanted to focus on, and you specifically spelled out U.S. and Brazil. I want to know, to start with, which are the other markets that you all are targeting. We have Brazil, we have U.S. Which are the other couple of markets that you all are targeting? And the size of these opportunities, maybe you could talk about the markets of U.S. or Brazil or some of the other countries that you all are targeting. What is the size of that? That is the first question.
Over to you, Achal.
The other markets that we are not only pursuing but we are already in are major markets are the Middle East, parts of Europe, and parts of Southeast Asia, and of course, Africa. That covers the whole world. We are in various markets. The biggest markets, of course, are Brazil and the U.S. Off the top of my head, I would not have the exact numbers for these markets, but I would say that the largest market, the domestic market in the world for coolers is India. It is followed by China, and the third-largest is the U.S., and the fourth-largest is Brazil. These are the four largest markets for coolers in the world. GSK China has registered a strong growth momentum with decent profitability. That addresses China domestic market as well as Southeast Asia. And of course, we have representatives.
We have people on our payroll in three different countries in Europe. We are sort of working on growing those markets as well.
Sure. The second question is actually related to China. China is mainly serving the Mexican market. These IPRs which were developed now, obviously, are being transferred to that entity. After that happens, I'm just trying to think of the Chinese entity, how much of that sales will be a domestic sales, and how much of that would essentially go towards Mexico? If this IPR were to go out, does it impact the revenue potential of GSK China?
No, of GSK, let's say in terms of the half the sales comes from international and half domestic China. Of the half international, a very small percentage comes from China, comes from Mexico. This is an amount which is expected across the world. So it isn't as if it is dependent on the Mexican business to continue its operations. It is not. However, as mentioned by Nrupesh, when I say this transaction, there is a possibility that the new owners might want to continue the sales from GSK China and from Symphony India because we have the products, and we have been doing very well in those markets. There is no saying that that's not going to happen. So we're exiting from those companies, not necessarily from those markets. So one way or the other, we will also be present in those markets.
As far as the IP is concerned, those IPs are really relevant for the Mexican market. So they're transferring those IPs. Again, it really doesn't affect GSK China whatsoever. As I was outlining in presentation, GSK China owns 61 IPRs, out of which only relevant to Mexico and as a whole in GSK China, I think I proposed only 9 IPRs are being bought out. So that's my logic. So it's very much going to retain 52 IPRs and such as future performance will be minimal or no impact made. In fact, this transaction will stand in multi-faceted way in the sense in Mexico, will be more valuable in terms of the organization. GSK China is definitely strong, whereby Symphony India will be weaker and it's anywhere in that outside the home sleep apnea system.
The process, GSK China will be able to have bottom line in line with Symphony India in terms of its capital efficiency. So that's what we wanted to highlight.
I think nothing like that. The next question is on the very process of getting Mexico and Australia. I thought these companies were on the way to turnaround. I think everything Mexico was doing well. I think in the last couple of years, we have been spending a lot of time and energy to turn around some of these businesses. So why sell those now, and why not wait for turnaround? I thought you were not very certain about selling it to these entities. It is interesting.
Look, as you know, the numbers are, we have demonstrated turnaround in Mexico. Interesting turnaround happened in India. China turnaround happened very recently. Australia turnaround is a little in sort of the early to the plant and still sort of under a tough situation. But consider the exposure that we have in Australia.
It will take a while for it to become, obviously, generative. It is going to be, that is still a more time-consuming process. While there are other opportunities that have come our way. We felt that maybe it is a good time to pursue those opportunities rather than continue the path of turning Climatech around and all. That is one certainty. But it is going to take a little more time than we would like. Ideally, it should have happened earlier. It could have happened much earlier, were it really not for two factors which impacted Australia. One was COVID, of course. Part of Australia had the longest lockdown in the world. Melbourne was closed for 270 days. That had a huge impact on our business. As a result of that, the Australian economy took a hit.
Many of our major customers and our products go to the real estate market. Many of our major customers who are real estate developers have gone bust. So our business sort of shrank. On top of that, more than half of our sales still came from gas-powered heaters. Now the major market in Australia, I think it is Victoria, which has put a ban on gas-fueled products. The government itself brought about the gas perspective into the business. These are events which have prevented the turnaround from happening earlier. While that happened, in the process, we kept on bleeding and the capital that employed overseas kept on depleting. I think it is about finding that window of attention to bigger and better opportunities.
Thanks. Sir, one last question before I get back in the queue. On the domestic demand, you talked about managing bandwidth.
Logical extension for electric vehicle companies would be getting into Iran or getting into another country which has been having an electric vehicle. Any platform, which are the areas that you are planning to focus and where you see your growth? Very briefly, if you can talk about that. Thank you.
As of now, we have got to look at products that will maintain those available opportunities. We are constantly scanning for opportunities. We have not really done anything. We are constantly exploring those opportunities.
Thank you very much
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from Harsh Gokalgandhi from Renaissance Investments . Please go ahead.
This question is regarding the US sales. Whether the US sales number currently and having a back contract and then last customer that I think you have spoken about during the call. Can you run back that for us?
As of today, for the current year, we are expecting all of that to happen. This is what we want to submit summer in the U.S. and the summer year after. The U.S. business is still at INR 1 trillion. In case of your back contract, there will be specific opportunities which have somehow emerged in the last few weeks.
Okay. The last question. Regarding the 13th, what are the sources of the material that come?
Sources from India, from China, from Mexico. Products actually move around. When you aggregate these opportunities with respect to cash cycles, that has been-
Secondly, due to the current situation, there are many opportunities emerging and there are certain advantages that are actually exceptional in India. In regard to setting up a manufacturing plant in India, it would be much better if done in India or China. But looking at the particular manufacturing plant in India, it has already been done. It has been fully successful because we can continue with this particular effort. We are expecting that. Third thing, recently Chinese are coming to India. They are joining the power grid tariffs from China. Secondly, even if 40% tariffs remain continued in China, presently, economically it is still hard. In the current scenario, that's not the case. With the Chinese players now going back under margin, they will find extremely difficult to compete with Taiwanese.
When you leave that and still LTI, after that tariff will be under 26% or lower or zero, with LTI, we will be highly competitive. In terms of turn final after considering everything, actually, I will reach a conclusion. If everything works out as we have discussed and if it clears as we have discussed, it will be a very good decision. It will be a very good decision. Last point I would like to say is currently our objective with this investment is to maximize the sales. We have a very good global footprint. With our footprint, we will be able to sell our products after a while. At the moment, we are selling very little in the Western and Asian countries. That's all we are doing. So at least with the new footprint, we will start. This is a new organization.
At present, I must acknowledge that there is a certain aspect of uncertainty involved, and there is a certain degree of fear. I believe that the time that has been allocated, that is three years, that is enough. That's adequate. That's sufficient in my assessment to realize the kind of benefits we have done in the future of that particular situation. So yes, I think that's fair. After all, it's an evaluation. At present, we are in the exploration. We are analyzing, we are evaluating, and we are discussing with our customers. We will get some feedback. That will be final. Then we will decide. In terms of taking a decision, as far as Australia is concerned, historically we have been doing business and we have expected good growth rates. Even with the current pandemic, the market of wind and solar in Australia is worth approximately $100 billion.
It has ventured into a condition to attract investments in computers and in the space. These are now considered strategic in the Indian and global market. We are talking about $60 billion worth of strategic investment. So in fact, the prospects for future are very, very good. We believe that the area has a high potential. Now is the right time to make such a unique decision. It's a big under transformation of the entire activity, and we want to be the real pioneers to grasp this. So it will be a different valuation, and we believe that with the right co-developer, which suits our opportunity and our strength, that could be a big success story. We foresee that happening. That's all I wanted. So thank you very much for the invitation and giving us this opportunity.
Thank you. The next question is from Anupama from Bloomberg Television. Please go ahead.
Yeah. I just wanted to place questions mainly on CT Australia. Here is the current time actually of the government saying they are giving extension maybe until October 30th to CT Australia. To what extent are you willing to give extension, manage the risk and value accordingly with your investors?
Our attitude is direct involvement of government. We think globally. In case we are talking about capacity, we have to look globally. We have to think globally as well as locally. But the regulation is varying. We know that global company will be preferred by the government. That varies between the position which is directly owned by the government and that's what. Yeah. I can understand the logic of selling CT Australia. I think that company and the management selling brings some extra difficulty because generally what we have seen.
I presume that is a very similar type of
Yeah.
capital allocation strategy that you have assumed after this. I would even say that sometimes it can be very difficult because initially you will be tempted to have a capital employed that looks very, very, very, very attractive. If you are using that to get a negative cash flow somewhere, won't you see that being wasted over time?
Yes. This remains to be seen what the capital allocation will be posted to. We will not give any clear picture. There are no acquisitions on the horizon, and we are not even going to be pursuing route at all. Whatever we need, international growth will come by direct exports from India, and if at all, like I said before, we will establish a trading subsidiary in a certain geography. Other than that, we will have no use for that capital.
It can be ROCE negative going forward?
No, it need not be ROCE negative. You would have observed that we have a stated payout policy whereby at least 60% of the PAT is to be distributed. In reality, I think in last 10 years, our payout is more than 80% out of PAT. This degree, we have reservation payout tax, we have reservation special dividend. If we do not make that capture, obviously those revenues are there. That is number one. Number two, at no stage, none of we are saying or committing any numbers in any respect. Obviously, disclaimer statement applies. You will appreciate that the process has begun. We have some feelers, we have some indications. But once it is fully wrapped up, we will come to know the precise number and details. Just as a cautionary statement.
Yeah. Thanks a lot.
It is going to impact anything. The reason being, finally, apart from this current piece, Symphony India is sitting on a treasury of INR 600 crore.
Yeah.
Approximately, we are assuming everything else we have to write off and assume everything else. Still it doesn't change anything, right? Whatever is going to be merely accounting adjustment balancing.
Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from Manas Mayur from Wealth Managers. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Am I audible?
Yes.
Yeah. Loud and clear.
First, congratulations to the entire team of Symphony, Achal and Nrupesh . You actually took us by surprise. All I remember you asking about sitting or split, and we didn't know it was around the corner so soon. But anyway, it was a very good move from the management standpoint.
Mayur, neither did we.
No, I purely understand, sir. Otherwise, we have not had such a candid discussion there. It was a very well-thought-out move, and I am sure, and great congratulations. After a long time, it was overdue. The management deserves all the full credit. More importantly, the fact that you just highlighted that we are going to make money on both the deals. At least it will be positive. Sometimes in-
No, Mayur, we have not said anything like that. Mayur, we have not said anything like that.
Expectation to make both the deals positive.
Yes. Our expectation is to make INR 1,000 crore. That doesn't mean-
I understand, sir.
So-
I'll be more selective with the word. I understand, sir. Yes.
Yeah. Please don't put words in our mouth.
No, sir. I agree. Sir, actually, keeping this in perspective, first, a very small clarification from Nrupesh. We say Mexico had 86 crore of capital employed. This is all I believe would be cash, largely, which is sitting, right? Because from that only 43 crore will be paid out, right?
Yeah. Mayur, this 86 crore as on December 31st, and there it is a working capital-oriented business. This 43 crore of repayment we expect to happen in next two to three quarters. One, out of internal accruals, which is already and expected to be very healthy. Secondly, we have IMPCO. In fact, IMPCO has worked out the plan to squeeze its working capital. Currently, partially it is in cash, small amount, but mainly in working capital to fuel its growth. Basically, its working capital will be squeezed, and it is internal accrual.
Was there any kind of restriction regulatory-wise to take that dividend from IMPCO when it was a cash flow positive business? Over these years, just to understand over a slightly longer term, were there any kind of restrictions from Mexico situation, country as such?
No.
Was it not tax efficient?
That is right. It was not tax efficient.
This current situation also helps us to get that in place and make it more tax efficient way.
Yes, by complying all the tax laws and transfer pricing compliance and doing multi-purposes.
Sir, I will focus my question more on the opportunities which are there. You spoke very candidly about the US market. I know US market is close to INR 4,000 crore-INR 4,500 crore for air coolers. We have been knowing this for last many years now. Fortunately, little bit growing at whatever small percent is possible. It is not shrinking. Sorry, sir. I understand we tried to address that market through whether it was even Mexico could have been all these years and a good potential to supply to US market. While there may be certain products which may not be suitable there, but it could have been possible, whether Mexico, whether Australia, we have done, whether China. What do you believe has actually changed in the current scenario, apart from the fact of tariffs and the regulatory situation?
What do you believe has changed for us to be able to address the US market now a little more attractively than all these years? This is first. Secondly, competitive situation, relative competitive environment for us, how it is. Does US import a lot of air coolers? Does it domestically procure orders? In that the players wise, it is more all large retail malls driven. From a competitive situation and supply sourcing, what is it that gives us a right to increase our business in U.S. now, compared to where we were in the last couple of years?
It's a valid question, Manas. All this while it was really There are like a thousand different manufacturers of air coolers in China. Local in China and export out of China, it's extremely competitive, and they were dominating the US market. There are some players in the U.S. which manufacture, two, three players which much smaller volumes and very large coolers. Not really the kind which dominates the market. All this while it was difficult to compete with those Chinese players, and there was no consistency because these buyers are, like you rightly said, these large retailers like The Home Depot and Lowe's and Walmart, and there is no loyalty. Every year they shop around for a different supplier, and they bought from us for two, three years, and then they opted for some other vendor.
Now, with China at these current tariff rates or even if the tariff is little lower than we expected, the tariff, significantly higher than the tariff on India, China is out of the equation as far as that is concerned. That is what has changed. Mainly speaking, as far as the US market is concerned, that is what has changed. Nothing else.
I believe Symphony is one of the few players in India at least, which has mastered the low electricity intensity with fan-based coolers. When we see over these many years.
Yeah.
We are someone of the competitive one. The U.S. has a lot of fan base. Will that be a right way to look at?
I didn't quite understand your question. The U.S. has a what? Lots of. Yes, I mean,
In terms of product which gets sold in U.S., the technology wise it is. From a product perspective, they use a lot of fan, unlike a blower technology, right? We have those products.
That's correct. Yes.
Okay. Okay, sir. Wish you all the best and hope to see
Thank you.
more and more good numbers. Just one perspective from the investor side. Please take this as a well-wisher's feedback and not as a negative comment or anything. When we look at Symphony Limited as very long-term investment opportunities, the key for investor is the growth element and not the efficiency element as much. Because as Nrupesh Shah has always been hammering to us over the last 25, 30 quarters that the ROCE is infinite, and it is well placed, and you have also been master of ROCE. So for us, ROCE has never been the concern.
For us, capital allocation has never been a concern. The key aspect we look at is Symphony Limited as a growth, which has been the key aspect which for some few years during the strong summer season, sometimes it lacks. So we hope that that comes in place with all the restructuring and new focus.
We also hope some new talent pool and young blood comes in the picture. Not that the old is always gold, but just to add on to that and takes up the more responsibility and drives the growth element. So the growth is the missing puzzle in that area and we hope with all this, you are able to address that in a consistent and meaningful manner, sir. Wish you all the best and thank you.
No, absolutely, Mayur. You are absolutely right. That growth is being driven by our young colleagues. One, Amit Kumar, who is on the call as well, who is the Group CEO and Executive Director, who is currently focusing more on the India business. He has demonstrated very good growth as you have seen in the past, in the last few quarters. Then there is Rajesh Mishra, who is right here with me. He heads the international. All the revenue outside of India is something that he has been spearheading. He is also doing tremendous work and has demonstrated great results. So between the two of them, Amit Kumar is in his mid-forties, Rajesh is around 50, so they are significantly younger than the old guard, as you rightly said. So they are the ones with all the energy, the drive, the zeal, and all of that.
They are the ones who are taking this company, propelling this company forward.
Yes, sir. Wish you all the best. For Mr. Rajesh Mishra, we want to put a 50% CAGR for the next five years as a target in international markets.
Rajesh, you hear? I am asking Rajesh.
I am asking. I hope he is hearing that. This is without excluding the sales of CT.
Mayur, we will invite you every time in our budget meeting and review meeting. Very helpful.
Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. Next question is from the line of Veenit Pasad from Investec Capital. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Sir, just one question from my end. If you can give a number as to what is the proportion of exports out of China and India business to IMPCO and Australia.
Does anybody have numbers over there? Ravi from India export to, say, we have INR 106 from top line of Symphony standalone of trailing 12 months as on December 31st. Out of this export to IMPCO and Australia won't be more than 3%-4%. I am saying a big range figure. I have to see the exact figures, but about 3%-4%.
Okay. We had shifted quite a bit of production from Australia to India. Would that also be a part of it? Wouldn't the number be higher?
As on December 31st, this is how it will be. I think your last question was about GSK China. In GSK China, out of 86, it might be around 20%.
Understood.
Like we said earlier, Veenit, it is quite possible that can continue even under new ownership because we are still offering products which sell very well over there.
That most likely will continue.
Most likely will continue.
There won't be any better option for the new buyer than continuing to buy from GSK China.
Correct. In one sense, we will have our cake and eat it too.
Also, a very important point to note is that most of the replacements in this market will be generic. So that generic partner may not want to—it will be too risky for them to—
Change the whole.
mix up product lines overnight. It will take at least two, three years before this thing even kind of starts.
If at all.
If at all.
Yeah. GSK China may sell goods perhaps for Australia and for I think here in Symphony India, coupled with GSK China may sell goods perhaps.
Understood. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. That was the last question. I will now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you very much. Dear participants, I think your questions have given us a lot of food for thought and have also with Amit Kumar and Rajesh Mishra nodding their heads and giving their commitment to Mayur's sort of suggestions. I think you have done our job for us. I would like to thank you for that as well. Well, all the best. Thank you. Good evening.
Thank you very much. On behalf of Investec Capital Services (India) Private Limited and Symphony Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.