Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Ashiana Housing Q4 FY22 earnings conference call, hosted by Dolat Capital. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rahul Jain from Dolat Capital. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah, hi. Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Ashiana Housing Q4 FY 2022 earnings call, hosted by Dolat Capital. We have the senior management of Ashiana Housing with us today, Mr. Varun Gupta, Whole Time Director, and Mr. Vikash Dugar, CFO. Now, I will hand over the call to Mr. Vikash Dugar for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Rahul. Good afternoon, everyone. Hope all of you and your families are keeping healthy. I welcome you all to discuss the performance of the fourth quarter and the year ending March 2022 for Ashiana Housing. Thank you for joining us today. The year gone by was exciting in terms of new acquisitions. We saw a healthy momentum in housing demand, and hence explored various areas where we can execute further to meet the future demand. Six new land parcels have been acquired in the year, first being Gurgaon, where we are planning another Kid-Centric Homes in approximate 22.1 acres. Second being in Pune, a Senior Living project in Varale, in 11.93 acres. Third, in Jaipur, 8.6 acres, Regular Comfort Homes.
Another in Jamshedpur, 3.96 acres, and lastly, two land parcels in Chennai of 15.64 acres and 9.93 acres, both being senior living projects. Total potential sellable area in these new parcels will be around 61 lakh sq ft, and with this, we also see senior living share increasing in our portfolio in future years. Area booked recorded in FY 2022 was 14.76 lakh sq ft, as compared to 14.97 lakh sq ft in FY 2021. In the last quarter, that is Q4 FY 2022, 4.53 lakh sq ft of area was booked as compared to 4.21 lakh sq ft in Q3 FY 2022. In Q4, bookings were driven by Ashiana Amantran Phase III, which was launched in Q4.
Nirmay Phase IV, Bhiwadi, Ashiana Anmol Phase II, Gurgaon, and Ashiana Shubham Phase IV in Chennai. Value of area booked increased to INR 573.25 crores this year, vis-a-vis INR 534.68 crores in FY 2021. Sales price improved to INR 3,883 per sq ft in FY 2022, versus INR 3,571 per sq ft in FY 2021, driven by increasing prices across projects and changing mix towards higher price projects. We handed over 8.86 lakh sq ft in FY 2022. This was against a delivery of 8.55 lakh sq ft in FY 2021. Total revenue declined to INR 233.59 crores in FY 2022, versus INR 259.31 crores in FY 2021, due to lower deliveries.
EBITDA also declined to INR -6.56 crores in FY 2022, vis-a-vis +4.08 crores in FY 2021. There was an additional impact of provision of INR 4.26 crores for the misappropriation of funds incident discovered during the year. Quarterly, total revenue increased to INR 78.28 crores in Q4 FY 2022, versus INR 54.19 crores in Q3 FY 2022, due to higher deliveries. EBITDA also improved to +9.22 crores in Q4 FY 2022, versus -3.28 crores in Q3 FY 2022. Pre-tax operating cash flow was positive at INR 165.05 crores in FY 2022, vis-a-vis positive INR 171.65 crores in FY 2021. It remained positive in all the four quarters of the year.
Equivalent area constructed was at 16.2 lakh sq ft in FY 2022, versus 11.66 lakh sq ft in FY 2021. Quarterly equivalent area constructed was at 5.07 lakh sq ft in Q4 FY 2022, versus 3.73 lakh sq ft in the previous quarter, and the same was 3.90 lakh sq ft in Q4 FY 2021. On this note, I would like to conclude my remarks. We will now be happy to discuss any questions or suggestions that you may have. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone wishing to ask a question, may please press star and one on your touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, if you wish to ask a question, you may please press star and one. The first question is from the line of Rohit Balakrishnan from i Thought PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. So, just wanted to understand in terms of FY 2023, what's the outlook in terms of launches? What are we planning and what are we trying to target in terms of pre-sales, et cetera? Could you just share some outlook?
Hi, Rohit, right?
Yes.
Hi, Rohit. Varun here. So I think this year is an important year for us. We picked up a lot of projects last year, and we had a couple of pending projects to launch this year. So this year is exciting. We are looking to launch a few greenfield new projects. So I think overall launches, overall, put together, phases that will be launched will be about 25 lakh-30 lakh sq ft this year. Of those, I think half, about 12 lakh sq ft, would be new phases of existing projects, and another, you know, 15 lakh-20 lakh sq ft would be launches of the first phase of new greenfield projects that we are looking at.
We are looking at a large improvement in pre-sales, particularly on the revenue side, driven by increasing prices and changing product mix. So I think the company is looking at crossing about the INR 1,000 crore mark, and we're looking at INR 1,100 crore pre-sale number this year, as compared to INR 573 crore that we did in FY 2022. So I think that's the internal targets. They are a little stretched, but I think right now the environment is very positive, and we have inventory to sell.
Right. So just, sir, on this point, as you said, it's it would be the highest ever that you would have sold. This, INR 1,100 crore, I mean, so this would be largely, the... I mean, out of all the launches that you are planning, would Gurgaon be a significant part of that? And, out of this INR 1,100 crore, would that be a big contributor? Would that be a fair,
The new Gurgaon project would be a large contributor. Even in Ashiana Anmol, the older project of Ashiana of Gurgaon, in Sohna, that will also be a big contributor. We have seen good sales last year in that, and we expect further improvement in sales value there as well.
The new phase that you have launched there, right?
Yeah. So the new project has not been launched. The new project will be launched and will be a high contribution in this financial year 2023. And Ashiana Anmol in Gurgaon, the older project, that will continue to do good value of sales, even better than what we did last year. Last year was also a good number there last year.
All right. All right. So, okay, got it.
Yeah, so Gurgaon should contribute in our expectations, you know, more than a quarter of the sales, total sales value across those two projects should contribute more than a quarter of the total sales value.
Okay. Got it. And, so just one clarification on this point. Ashiana Anmol is basically Phase II, right? Because Phase I , they've already, I think, broadly sold out pretty much, right?
Phase I, we are sold out. It will be Phase II , and we will launch Phase III as well in this year.
Okay. Okay, so Phase II has been launched or... Sorry, I missed that part.
Yeah.
Has it been launched in FY 2022?
Phase II was launched in Q3 of last year.
Okay. Okay, understood. And so from a reported number point of view, this year is also, is also expected to be good. And I think in the last call, you mentioned that we are targeting 15% ROE this year. So do we stand by that? I mean, if you can just talk a bit about that as well.
When we look at, I had given some clarifications. I would be at odds. We are targeting to get to 15% ROE, but we look at our economic basis internally in the company. Reported basis is a little bit more different. So this year, I was incorrect in my expectations of reported profits this year. When we've reworked the numbers, we will hit-
Right
... double-digit ROE numbers, but right now, teams seem on a reported basis a little further away than this year. But on an economic basis, the way we track, we have seen improving ROEs, and I think that will continue this year, and hopefully, we should get into the teens on an economic basis this year as per our projections. But reported numbers will take some time to flow.
Sure.
They tend to get touched upon.
Sure. And just one more thing on these launches, are these more evenly placed or more towards the back end of the year? How should one think about... I mean, how are you guys going about it?
So, phase launches, I'm not completely aware of right now when we will stagger them. They get timed. The new greenfield launches, I think we should do about three of them in the first half of the year and three of them in the second half of the year. So three projects we have actually applied for RERA already. So one in Pune, one in Gurgaon, and one in Bhiwadi. Three projects RERA has been applied for. So depending, you know, we might get carried forward to third quarter, but I expect those to get launched in the second quarter, the way things are progressing right now.
Got it. Fine, sir. I will get back to you. All the very best, but hopefully we will be able to do some business. Thanks.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to the participants, anyone wishing to ask a question, may please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Rohit Prakash from Marshmallow Capital. Please go ahead.
Sir, hi. Thank you for the opportunity. My second—so my first question is on the industry in general. So I think a couple of months back, there was a release from CREDAI, which mentioned that, because of the rising commodity prices, some of the players might not be able to construct their fulfill the commitment because the construction cost has gone up too much. So just wanted to get your sense of what—I mean, how is the commodity cost affecting us? Are we able to maintain our spreads and margins with the rising cost? Because it's a very weird situation, right? So the project did extremely well. We're getting penalized because we are having to construct it with higher material costs. So could you discuss that a little bit, please?
So let me take the second part of the question first. So I think one of the key things has been that if we are quick to construct, then the commodity prices have not hurt us, right? Like, say, we know we had a very good launch in Ashiana Daksh, Ashiana Aditya. Those projects, because we constructed relatively quickly, the time gap between locking in the sale price and the construction cost incurring was not very high. The problem really happens to a lot of players where, you know, you've locked in the sales price early on, and then your construction timelines are far longer than, than, you know, you would expect, either because of the nature of construction or sometimes just because of not able to managing the construction management.
We are able to run the projects in a tight, tight schedule, so that does not hurt us. One place, like in Ashiana Amantran Phase II, which is a smaller piece, but the timelines, just because the way the phases were structured, and when we were seeing demand, we sold Phase II, a year before actually really starting, full-fledged construction on that phase. And there we will get hurt because of commodity price, because the price was locked in earlier, and construction, cost happened, later. And commodities are also—majority of the commodities are actually consumed heavily in the early part of construction. You know, steel, RMC, those consumption is in the early part of the construction.
You do consume cement, bricks, and all later, but the proportion of consumption of commodities are in the first 15 months of the construction cycle are much heavier than in the later phase. That said, if finishing costs, if commodity prices flow into finishing costs, which they sometimes do, that can be a problem, like they have flowed in a little bit recently. That said, now coming back to question one on maintaining margins. I see from a long-run perspective, margin expansion. We might have a slight compression in our gross margins for the next year or two because of this commodity price cycle that you're seeing hurting well sold units. But the expected compression in margins is not very significant.
But higher volumes on a similar fixed cost base, I think we will have an expansion of net profit margins, therefore, happening in EBITDA margins, happening expanding because of the same. And, from a longer run perspective, I have a very strong view that the overall expansion in sales prices will be higher than the expansion in construction costs, and we should have margin expansion over the next three, five year basis.
I think real estate is also changing into a margin. Vikash, you also just added to me that, I think, senior living mix is also improving, in the project mix, and senior living tends to enjoy a higher gross margin, for us. That will also lead to some margin expansion for us, as we go along. I think, those were some of the things. I, I am quite bullish over the next three to five years for us.
Okay. Getting even Kid-Centric, we should be enjoying better gross margins, right?
Kid-Centric, we should get a better gross margin after some time. I think, you know, it is still work in progress in terms of creating differential value for the customers, your differentiated value, which senior living also took a bit, which now it does. I think kid-centric homes will take a little bit longer before we start enjoying higher margins there.
Got it. So, so could you also, share, so as a percentage of sales, we maintain the... We like to maintain the land cost to be 15%-20%. So what portion of the sales will be construction cost? What is the number that is comfortable generally?
So, Vikash, about? We typically look at about a 30% gross profit margin. Gross profit margin is sales less construction cost, less land cost, and less what we call project overhead costs. Project overhead costs includes cost of approvals, cost of architects, those things, construction sites and all that. Labor costs that we have to pay any sort of other. And also what we look at as, project level financing costs are also, put into that head. So in our view, all of those things should total about 70% of sale value on an average. You know, in joint venture projects, sometimes they go up to, like, you know, 72%-73%, and our gross margins do come down.
At the time, we are looking at the project, you know, the how the future actually behold is very different. Sometimes margins expand, sometimes they compress. So typically, my view is that we should look at about, you know, 45% of revenues as construction costs, 5% of revenues as project overheads, and about 20% of revenues as sale price on a blended basis. You know, revenue share, we also have given. We typically give mid-twenties revenue share, like, you know, 22, 23, 24, 25%. That's the typical revenue share that we offer in those situations. Sometimes the margin compresses, sometimes we believe our land construction costs should be a little bit lower. That's the typical perspective.
The 45% construction cost that you said, what would be material and what would be labor, typically?
Say that again.
Of the 45% construction cost that you said, what would be material and what would be labor?
Okay. So INR 100 of construction is typically INR 70 material, INR 20 labor, and INR 10 of site overhead, the construction and site overhead.
Perfect. So that is very helpful. And, this is curious, you know, so in general, so again, going back to what we saw about the market currently, do you see a reduced demand, reduced competition when you are looking out and scouting for land parcels right now? And, do you see an increased consolidation as far as the customer preference is concerned? Do you see any slowdown in construction by your peers in the locality that you're in?
So, on point one, actually, it's exactly the opposite on the land side. Land prices have really ballooned over the last 12 months. I think we've been fortunate that we closed six transactions last year, and they will have healthy margins because land prices were locked. You know, we closed transactions so land, land transactions were locked in, you know, six, eight months prior to that, before closing, and we hit good prices. On the land side, we are seeing lots of competition, and we are really, right now, really mostly scouting in Jaipur and Gurgaon. Chennai and Pune, and Jodhpur, we are scouting, Jaipur, Gurgaon, and Jodhpur, because Pune and Chennai, we have our hands full with the two new projects to be launched in each of those cities.
In all these three cities, I think the plotted layout market has been on fire, and that is, those are the guys really competing for land, less, less of the guys who really want to do development, and that is creating a lot of land price increases. Yeah, so therefore, finding new land opportunities is a little bit of a challenge at this point in time. That said, we were able to close 1 transaction, about a week ago, 10 days ago, for the in Jaipur, and at decent terms as well. So that's where it sits. On construction volume, I believe we are a little far away from construction volumes going up across the country on a substantial basis, but not too far away.
I think new developers are entering the market, which, you know, who will have clean balance sheets, fresh starts, and they will be able to up construction. That said, the availability of capital remains a constraint, and I think the biggest constraint for a new construction supply, to me, will be availability of capital. If that starts changing significantly, I think a lot of new developers will join the market and increase supply. Right now, the capital remains a constraint.
Perfect. That was very helpful. Last question from my end. So, what I was thinking that with the high expectation of higher contribution from Gurgaon and Pune, and higher contribution from senior living, as well, we should comfortably cross the 4,000 mark this year. That would be the expectation, right?
Absolutely. I think we've crossed INR 4,500 mark for this year. Last year, the quarter three and quarter four, we were comfortably above the INR 4,000 a sq ft. Q4, we were at INR 4,093.
INR 4,000, we have already started to hit since the last two quarters of 2022. So-
Perfect.
Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is very, very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pritesh Sheth from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for taking my question. So firstly, on your INR 1,100 crore pre-sales target, I mean, not FY 2023, but beyond that, how do we look to sustain it or grow on it? And how much does the current pipeline give us the visibility? And, let's say if we want to sustain and grow on that, beyond this, what sort of capital investment we would need to continuously add projects in the pipeline?
So, Pritesh, we don't have. So I think we've got to work on visibility beyond FY 2023, right now. FY 2023, 2024, I think would still be okay, because a lot of the projects we launched this year will continue into the next year, and they'll carry some momentum behind them. I don't know how much we'll be able to sustain it, that year. That said, I think Vikash is telling me that we picked up 60 lakh sq ft last year. We have about INR 30 lakh-INR 40 lakh sq ft to sell from the previous year's stock. Like, I think we have about 10 lakhs in ongoing phases, about 4.5 lakh-5 lakh sq ft.
We have, you know, Ashiana Amarah to launch and some more new phases to launch, probably about 40 lakh-50 lakh sq ft from there as well, of all this put together. So I think 1 crore, 10 lakh sq ft is probably INR 1 crore, INR 10 lakh sq ft is what we have to sell. My view is that we should average in these projects north of INR 4,500 a sq ft. So probably around INR 5,000 crore of sale value is what we have to sell at this moment of time. So I think one key insight about it is to sustain this, is to ensure that the cycle of these projects are on average five years and not average seven, eight, 10 years.
That will help, you know, ensuring that we're able to hit pre-sales numbers. And secondly, we need to do more transactions. I don't think we require capital. We have a substantial liquidity right now. We have a line from IFC, which will come in right now, a little bit needs to get dispersed. Additional capital requirements are in the short term, not a requirement. We are, as I said, looking to, A, improve ROEs. So improving ROEs will throw in profits that can fund this. Second, I think a lot of our capital was stuck in underperforming projects. At one point in time, Ashiana Anmol had a very large proportion of our balance sheet. We freed a chunk of it now, and the way sales are going there, we'll free money there.
So I believe that a lot of our capital in what I would call underperforming projects should also get released. And that, coupled with additional profits and churn in good projects, all of that put together, I think will be... We are okay with the next, I think 12-24 months, at least in terms of doing acquisitions, to the projects for growth.
The question really is more at the land prices. The land prices in the last 12 months have gone beyond double, yeah. They have doubled up in a lot of places, and that just makes new projects unviable unless and until we start looking at assumptions which are not reasonable. So I think navigating that is a much bigger challenge than capital. Let me put it this way. So there are challenges, but capital is not the challenge.
Great. And on the capital related question, my question was largely on not if you require an external capital or not, but internally, how much we would need to, you know, fund these acquisitions? What are our target? How much we want to spend on these acquisitions on a year-on-year basis?
So the first half by 2023, we are looking to spend about INR 200 crore on these acquisitions. So that's what we are looking to do. And if we are able to do joint ventures, then that would be even lower than that. We have some outright things in it, that structure, but we would much rather do joint ventures if we can, and keep the balance sheet and capital light as possible.
Right. And how much have we did last year? I mean, for the 6 million sq ft addition, how much was-
Yeah, I think we spent about... Our own equity, we would have spent about an IFC line, everything put together for new acquisitions, about INR 250-INR 260 odd crores, would have gone, all of that, including the projects that we gave landowners to JV and, you know, lands like that.
Okay. Okay, great. And on the land prices, price increase that you have been highlighting, this is typically, I mean, location specific. Like, I know, Gurgaon probably have we have seen, a sharp increase in prices, specifically people looking at lower development or independent floors. But is it the case even in Chennai, Pune as well, or this is particularly in the micro market specific?
Yeah, I don't know across the board. I know Chennai also, the place mainly where we are, where we take the land buy, prices have gone up, 1.5-2x. We have gotten offers to sell it also at a much larger value than we bought it at. So, you know, Chennai, Pune, I'm not so well aware of, so I can't comment. But Chennai also, land prices have gone up. And the driver of land price increase across the board seems layouts.
It seems, sorry?
Pocket layouts, driving plotted layouts.
Okay. Okay, okay, got it. And now we are doing projects in Pune, Chennai, we already have exposure to, you know, Rajasthan and Gurgaon. What is the mix overall we are targeting, maybe two to three years down the line? How much business we want to do from each of the micro markets?
I don't know if we have a two to three year view right now to share on Pritesh, right?
Okay. Yeah, yeah, Pritesh, yeah.
So we don't have a clear view of markets. And what we have is we do want senior living to start contributing between 6 lakh-8 lakh sq ft a year, okay? More from a percentage mix, I think we are looking at, you know, 6 lakh-8 lakh sq ft a year. We would also want our Chennai, Gurgaon, Pune to start contributing about 40% of our areas. So, and they would probably contribute a little higher on a revenue framework, because their price points are a little higher in these, in these markets, maybe 45% odd on a revenue framework, but that's what we are looking to get to.
I think a larger understanding that we want is more than that, we want these locations to hit a minimum threshold of profitability and return on capital that we have put in these locations. I think, I think that's what we are looking to get to. So in Chennai, I think we have hit a minimum profitability target. In Chennai, we have hit a minimum return on capital employed target as well that we look at on a location basis.
Then Chennai has already qualified those two. Now, we have put more money behind Chennai, and we want to take Chennai to the next level in terms of that. Gurgaon also was not doing so well. We have just started opening up in Gurgaon. I think at 2024 onwards, in our internal economic basis, Gurgaon will also start hitting a minimum threshold of profitability and a minimum threshold of return.
Return, yeah.
Pune is where the worry remains. We are not able to get the projects off yet. So, even though we have projects, I'm hoping Ashiana Malhar, we have applied for RERA. So hopefully, we'll start kicking it off there. And more than the revenue targets, what we will look for it, when—how long will it take to the minimum ROCE in an internal threshold that we have? I think that's the larger, game plan. I think that's the way we will look at things.
Okay, okay. Thank you. Thanks. That's it from my side, and thank you for very frank answers. Thank you. All the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rohit Balakrishnan from iThought PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you again for the opportunity. So, so my question is also related to what you just answered in the previous, question was, I mean, on sustainability of numbers. So I mean, this summer, so you mentioned you have about INR 1 crore worth of, so I think in terms of salability, and, given what you said in terms of, your pre-sale target this year, I'm assuming you'll probably do close to INR 200 million kind of number. So is there... I mean, this year, obviously, you've done many deals and many congratulations for that.
So, I mean, is there, a broad framework that you're looking at in terms of, okay, we, we will have, like, let's say, we, we are looking at a 2.5 million- 3 million run rate of sales every year. Some may be higher, some year may be lower, but probably we take that as a run rate. These are an amount of, like, we need to backsize or something like that. Is there some broad framework that you're working on? I mean, if, if, if you can probably share that, that'll be helpful.
So I think if you, if you look at the stack of the numbers, when we talk about a crore kind of a pipeline which is there, considering the kind of acquisition we did in FY 2022 as well, and the kind of pipeline we have in future projects and the sellable price that we are looking at, something around INR 4,500 per sq ft. I think with INR 5,000 crore, we can certainly look at you know, on an average, a run rate of 2 million or 2 million+ kind of a number on a per annum basis. So you can easily deduce that kind of a number. That is the kind of run rate we should try and hit.
So just to add on, I think that's the minimum threshold that we are looking at now. I think that we will look to expand that to INR 2.5 million-INR 3 million and take that further. I think at a larger think, I think the co-thinking in the company has moved around us. It's moved from just thinking top line to thinking, we need 15% return on equity. Let's figure out how to get there. Is there a 2 million? Is there 3 million? Is there 1.5 million? You know, let's figure it out. I think. So a lot of play is also going around and thinking on margin expansion. So that is coming in from a higher sale price.
So, you know, from a per sq ft margin, we expand on a higher sale price basis, to look at senior living projects, which have a little bit more less competition, therefore, and a very differentiated product to provide, better gross margins for us on a percentage basis as well, not only just on a per sq ft basis. So I think, there is some more thinking around what do we need to do, that we maintain 15% ROE on a threshold basis. So, like, you know, if you want to do 2.5 million-3 million sq ft, we have enough capital to go ahead and lock in another 50 lakh sq ft today.
If, if not more, we can lock in probably 60 lakh-70 lakh sq ft, if we go ahead and do joint venture terms with the joint venture. The problem is not the deposit people are asking for, is the revenue share ratios that people are looking for. But, you know, that will compress margins and ROEs in the future. So I think the things we are looking to do is how do we navigate a minimum ROE threshold that we want to get to, and keep that going? I think that's the critical piece that we're looking at.
I think otherwise, 2.5 million-3 million sq ft of run rate, on any other basis right now, I think the organization is geared up to sustain that, for sure. INR 2 million, so we have visibility anyways today with what we have. And I think four to five transactions we are looking at this year anyways to feed. So I think that will keep maybe get the momentum higher. So I think figuring that out is a little important for us, that how do we keep the ROE threshold always intact.
So I think in next year the focus is on profitable growth rather than only growth.
Sure. So that's very helpful. Actually, I think you answered it indeed, but what I was trying to sort of ask was that, I mean, given that we will probably do this run rate of sales, and that would mean that we are taking away from the, from the overall, saleable area. So we would need to be on this, we need to keep doing transactions every year or, or whatever the time frame is. So I was asking, what was the overall thought process? Is it like we want to, like, five years worth of sales in terms of, like, or, or, in-
We have always looked at 5-7x annual sales number, before this. We might, we might want to consider if we can work with a little lower threshold, and maybe, let's say 4x sales and if, if land prices are heavy. So it depends. Yeah, last year we did INR 6 million sq ft. That's a lot more than our annual run rate. Because, you know, we saw growth potential, and we saw the market so price correctly in terms of land.
So we will have some years where we'll do a lot of transactions, and we'll have some years which will be a little bit, slower. I think we'll be a little bit more flexible around that. Earlier, we had a little bit more set thought. We might want to be a little bit more flexible as we go around, to ensure that we are able to keep always focused. So I don't think we'll come down below four, and hopefully we'll not go up beyond eight.
Right. Okay. And sir, one more. Sorry, sorry.
Go ahead.
Okay. Again, very helpful. So, just one more question, specifically, let's say, on Gurgaon, in the micro market, within Gurgaon that we are in. I mean, how is the supply situation there? Do you see, like, supply increasing there, or there is not, still not much supply from quality developers like you?
Okay. So, yeah, on the supply side, is mostly coming in what people call a, a scheme called Deendayal scheme there, which is a plotted layout scheme. So most supply is coming in plotted layouts, or they are coming in floors on these plotted layouts. The kind of products we are looking to do, group housing, it's a rarity right now in launches in Gurgaon. So, the kind of product we want to do, which was so heavily oversupplied about four years ago, I think it's getting into an undersupply scenario now.
Got it. Okay.
If you look at the data, even on the website also of authorities like DTCP, in the last three, four years, if you try and collect the data as to what are the total approvals that have been given, those are very, very few. So-
Right.
The supply has been really constrained in this space.
Right. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much, and all the very best, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Harsh Dedhia, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. I was looking at the booking value per flat that Ashiana has been doing, and this has gone up quite a bit, like from in FY 2019, I think this was around INR 40 lakhs, this year it is INR 54 lakhs. So that's about 30%-35% increase in selling price per flat. Like, how much will you attribute this to land and construction costs versus improved company profitability?
So I would attribute a larger part of this to changing mix. Two, three things have happened. Average flat area that we've been also selling has increased by about 10% over the last few years, so last couple of years. So I think average area was around 1,200, 1,250. It's gotten closer to 1,350, 1,400 sq ft that we are selling. So a little bit of it is that. Second bit is also some product mix changes, like Gurgaon contributing more, which is priced higher per sq ft. So therefore, the change is also in mix. We have also increased prices on a per sq ft basis. Till now, the increased prices and-...
Increased costs in land and construction are more or less covered right now in the older projects that we are reporting. I think, but as I said, margin expansion phase has started. So now whatever we are selling, I think, in this year or this quarter, I think those projects now have better margins than they would have had a year or two years ago, when we locked in the project four to five years ago. Depending on whenever we locked in the project, the margins today would be better than that time.
So, now the margins should be like over 30%, on a gross profit margin basis?
Not across, but the new projects that we will launch, except for a couple that were launched that were done in 2015, those deals are 2016, 2017 transactions. Outside of those, I would expect margin expansion to happen, particularly some of the new transactions we have done. And I clarified, in joint ventures like revenue shares, we do compromise our margin sometimes because capital employed is lower, so they do come below the 30% threshold anyways. Sometimes, you know, sometimes we lock in at, you know, 24, 25, sometimes at 27. We do compromise there, depending on the location, availability and those.
In those projects, you know, if we are locked in at 25, I would expect 27 odd % margins, like a couple of percentage points higher than what we've locked in. I'm hoping that whatever we sell now, gross margins will hopefully be around, a little around 30% on a blended basis. But those, those on the reported basis are still three years away now.
Okay. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. Also for indirect expenses, I think this was about INR 90 crore in FY 2021. What would this number be in FY 2022?
FY 2022 or 2023, you mean?
2022. What would this number be in 2022? And then maybe also what you guys expect in 2023.
Okay. So if you look at other expenses, there are three components that I would say three, four components to the other expenses. One is general, what I would call employee expenses and general administrative expenses, okay? On a standalone basis, I think we had spent about INR 56 odd crores in these other expenses. Of that 56, I think about INR 17 crore-INR 18 crores is selling expenses. Selling expenses for us are timed to revenue recognition. They are generally costs. Most of the 90% of selling costs are recognized when the expenses, when the revenue is recognized, and it gets carried forward as unapproved selling expenses. So that will vary year-on-year.
But outside of that, what is about roughly about INR 48 crores, that I would expect to grow about 15%-20% over the next year, as a cost. Finance costs, so that should be closer to about INR 60-65 crores. That INR 46 crore figure will be closer to INR 60 crores-INR 65 crores. Selling expenses, I think we can look at about 4.5% of revenues that we will do genersally. And the finance cost should come down, actually. It has come down this year, and it should come down significantly. You can see quarterly, the numbers are decreasing, quarter on quarter. And finance cost should come down significantly. That's pretty much the components of the expenses.
Okay. Just one clarification. So you said, like, INR 56 crore are employee plus SG&A, like general administrator, and out of that, INR 17 crore or INR 18 crore is direct selling? Oh, sorry, INR 66 crore.
INR 66 crore is SG&A, okay? Employee benefit expenses and other expenses put together.
Okay.
On a standalone basis, of that INR 66 crore, about INR 18 crore-INR 20 crore is,
Right.
-selling expenses.
Okay, perfect. That makes sense. Yeah, thanks for the clarification, and that's all from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of V.P. Rajesh from Banyan Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the opportunity, and I apologize in advance because I joined late. Vinod, I was wondering if you gave guidance on the sellable area for this year?
We gave an area booking guidance. We are looking at doing a sales value of INR 1,100 crore this year.
Okay. So not in terms of square foot, but more in terms of value, right? Or we can-
Yeah. We internally, we are also shifting on a value basis a lot, because the mix of the projects are changing substantially, and we also do want to drive up prices a little bit. We see price opportunity increases. So given that, we are focusing more on increasing the...
Okay.
INR 1,100 crore, INR 1,100 crore is an aspirational figure internally to get to. But I think we'll get there. So but I think we'll definitely cross the INR 1,000 crore number and hoping to hit INR 1,100 crore also this year.
Right. And what was the number, corresponding number this year, fiscal year 2022?
INR 573 crore.
INR 580. Okay, so almost looking to double it. Okay, and then on your Slide 24, future projects, it seems we will run out of projects from Jaipur and Chennai fairly quickly from what I can tell here. So, are you scouting for more land in Jaipur? Because, of course, in Chennai, you have acquired two land parcels, so I guess you are set there. If you could just comment on Jaipur side.
In Jaipur also, we have two projects that are coming up. One we had acquired, which is Ashiana Ekansh, which is in the land bank already.
Correct. Right.
Right? Which is, in the future projects section you said.
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yeah.
And we announced acquisition of another project about... So and we have announced another project about 10 days ago in Jaipur, around INR 6.5 lakh sq ft, that we just concluded in the month of May. So we have two, and we are scouting for between one or two more transactions in Jaipur right now. As I articulated earlier, we need to find pockets where land prices are making sense. The plotted market in Jaipur is behaving irrationally, according to me, and very frothy. So land prices in some pockets are very frothy at this point in time.
Okay. So aside from Jaipur, is there any area where you feel you are low on the land inventory?
Not right now.
Jamshedpur finding,
Yeah, Jamshedpur and Gurgaon. Jamshedpur and Gurgaon is also where we are scouting for more transactions.
That's interesting, because in Gurgaon, you already have this, you know, Amarah coming up, right? So you want to add more pipeline after this or in parallel with this?
In parallel with this, we want to add more pipeline. In Gurgaon, we have a view that our brand is now getting further stronger. Sales momentum behind us over there, and we should try and make the most of that, sales momentum is the view that we have.
Got it. Got it. And then Jodhpur and Jaipur and Jamshedpur, I... Is it correct to assume that these are sort of satellite markets and not core to us? Is that a fair understanding or something changing in those two markets?
Yeah, they will be on the fringes there in terms of scale and opportunities. I don't see them becoming extremely large, in terms of-
So Jodhpur as a market, any which, any which is for us, lacks depth. But in, in terms of, continuously doing, some volume, Jamshedpur is, is in that space, in the sense that we are consistently, we attempt to get some volume. Also the volume is not to the extent, in markets like, Jaipur, for sure. But then consistently, we look out for parcels. Finding parcels in that part of India is a little difficult. But then, they, they remain, old and, somewhat consistently, some bit of volume generating kind of, markets. Jamshedpur, not Jodhpur.
Right. Yeah. No, got it. Got it, Yes. Okay, so our core markets will remain Gurgaon, Chennai, Pune, which is sort of developing and obviously Jaipur, right? Those are the-
Mumbai. Mumbai.
Yeah, of course.
The senior living opportunity is becoming very large for us.
Right. Talking about Mumbai, any update on Milakpur or is it status quo?
Status quo on Milakpur right now. We have filed for RERA for Phase I of Ashiana Advik, which is the new senior living project there. I think that's the exciting part.
Got it. Got it. Okay. Thank you. That's all I had. Appreciate it. All the best.
Thank you, Rajesh.
A reminder to the participants, anyone wishing to ask a question, may please press star and one. The next question is on the line.
Go ahead, ma'am. Please go ahead.
The next question is on the line of Harsh Dedhia, an individual investor. Please go.
Hi, thanks for the follow-up. Rajesh, the Milakpur land, also the mention of Kolkata, are there any updates on the Ashiana Milakpur project over there?
No updates there, yeah. Those, difficult stuff there, Harsh. Don't know what to do.
Is it possible to actually free up capital by selling land?
We've been trying that. That's also been difficult to execute, but that is a possibility. It will... Those transactions do take some time to put together, but we are working on putting something together to free up some capital for it.
And I remember last year you guys were also scouting, you were scouting for some opportunities in Ranchi area and the eastern area. Did you guys find anything over there?
Can you say that again, Harsh?
Ranchi. Ranchi as a location, you say.
We are not considering Ranchi.
Yeah.
Harsh, we were considering it, given that, you know, Jamshedpur we have work and we could do more work in Ranchi. I think, we have decided, not to explore Ranchi as a market right now.
Okay, that's it from my side. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vivek Chaturvedi, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hi, well, just wanted to check in terms of, potential up move in, interest rates in the year ahead, at, what level do you think there could be a slight slowdown in the interest in real estate market? Another 100 basis points?
I saw peak interest rates at home loans have come closer to 11%, 10.75%, 10.8% was the peak, home loan interest rates, maybe five, six years ago, and it came down slowly to about 6.5% levels, right? Correct. In my view, in about 8.5% of home loan interest rates, I think we'll be okay and comfortable. That's, that's the threshold where I think demands will start slowing down a bit.
Okay. Do you think that this level is different for, say, tier one cities versus, say, tier two, tier three cities, or you think broadly similar across the country?
I, Vikash and I both concur. We didn't have a view on this, but, like before, but yeah.
Yeah, I think, across, tier one or tier two, I think, 1.5%-2%, even if, the rate increases by that extent, it, the demand would be agnostic to it, is what we feel.
Yeah. The same levels, 8.5% out.
Okay. And, are you also seeing... I, heard you speaking, in an earlier question, that the size of the flats that you are building and delivering now have gone, bigger. But do you think, this has been what, since COVID, or it's broadly in that 1,300-1,400 sq ft range now?
I, I don't think it has anything to do with COVID. Those projects were planned earlier, okay? Sales have happened post-COVID, but they are coincidental that is there. I think, this is just, I think real estate has cycles of, improved affordability, where, you know, unit prices increase both on a per sq ft basis and a size. Then, size starts compressing when affordability hits its peak, and you will see its size start decreasing. After a bit, there's no, there's no room left, and per sq ft prices also compress, and you, you are at that. That's the cycle that played out over the last seven, eight years. I think the cycle is just turning the other way around, where we are seeing best ever affordability for people to buy homes, and the cycle is turning.
And in our case, as we mentioned earlier, that it is the mix of projects, the geographical location, like Gurgaon and all, which also are contributing in, in terms of increasing the, per square foot price. Per square foot price, and the size of the units also.
That's all right, then. Thank you.
Thank you, Vivek.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.
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