Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the APL Apollo Tubes Limited Q2 FY 2027 earnings conference call hosted by ICICI Securities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikash Singh from ICICI Securities Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Darwin. Hello, everyone. Good evening, and a very warm welcome on APL Apollo Tubes Q2 and H1 FY 2027 results conference call. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Sanjay Gupta, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. Rahul Gupta, Director, Mr. Deepak Goyal, Director for Operations, Mr. Anubhav Gupta, Chief Strategy Officer, and Mr. Chetan Khandelwal, Chief Financial Officer. I will hand over the call now to Anubhav for his opening remarks. Over to you.
Thanks, Vikash, and thanks to ICICI Securities for hosting APL Apollo for its quarter two FY 2027 earnings call. We have delivered our best quarter in terms of sales volume, EBITDA, and net profit. The volume of 960,000 tons was not easy to achieve in the quarter two, given our UAE operations remain disrupted due to ongoing Middle East disruption and high swings in the raw material prices, plus the shortage of steel in the domestic markets, along with the disruption in the container trade for export sales also. So what we did to achieve this performance was we focused on our core strengths, which are, number one, brand APL Apollo. So we ensured that the products in the Apollo category get better pricing, and we achieve better realizations and better EBITDA spreads on those sale numbers.
Number two strength was our highly increasing focus on the value-added products beyond construction and renewable sector. We have started to see the product line for defense and aerospace sectors also on the back of recently commissioned specialized new mill, which can produce sizes from 250 by 250 mm dia with 16 mm thickness. So these products are going in the defense and aerospace sector. We have mapped the applications, and we have started producing samples and giving to various authorities and agencies, which shall bear results in the next two to three months. If you look at the quarter two volume, APL Apollo and roofing products sale volume increased by 20% on YoY basis in the first half. We expect that this momentum will continue in the second half with double-digit volume growth.
In the absence of export sales and UAE operations, these are the two product verticals which are supporting superior volume growth and also the margins because of better pricing and better brand value. In terms of EBITDA, which has been our goalpost, I am glad to share that we are on track to achieve 20% growth on the absolute basis by March 2027 fiscal. Again, we are getting boost from the better pricing, increased sale of value-added products in all categories, and the quarter two EBITDA per ton of INR 6,000. We believe this is sustainable now as we enter into second half because the contribution is coming from brand APL Apollo products and roofing category, again, which are high value-added products.
If the UAE operations recover in the second half on stable geopolitical situation, we may do better than our expected 20% EBITDA growth, which we are guiding for FY 2027. On our balance sheet front, the working capital days remain zero, and the cash on books increased by 15% as at September 2026 to INR 16 billion versus INR 14 billion in June quarter. Our prudent working capital cycle remains intact, which continues to generate solid cash flows. Our CapEx also is on track as we target to achieve 2 million tonne of greenfield plus brownfield capacity, plus 1 million tonne of debottlenecking capacity, which we have targeted to achieve in the next two years. That is it from our side. We will be happy to take questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to please use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Our first question comes from the line of Darshan from Dolat Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for giving me the opportunity, and congrats on very good set of numbers. Just wanted to know your volume guidance for FY 2027. Earlier we had guided for 15% volume growth. Now for H1, given our volume growth is at close to, I think 4%. Just wanted to know what is our revised volume guidance for FY 2027?
Good evening. Boss, if you see our volume growth of profitable business like APL Apollo brand and the roofing product, we are intact with the guidance of 15% growth. But due to Dubai problem and the shortage of steel in country, we are unable to focus with the low margin business products. There we are not in position to commit any type of volume growth. We do not know right now, but in our main products, our margin is there. We are very confident that we are going to achieve our volume growth.
Okay. Heartening to hear that. Sanjay, also, I think there was some element of inventory benefit that we can see in Q2. Just wanted to know from you whether-
Boss, we never have much inventory. We have a total inventory of 1.5 lakh tons - 2 lakh tons. Out of that, our OEM order book and dealer network order book is 75,000 tons - 1 lakh tons. So you can say that 50,000 tons - 60,000 tons of our goods are spare. There is scrap in it, and a lot of products are included as well. So from the inventory of INR 4 crore-INR 5 crore, you cannot say anything.
Okay. And sir, in financial assets, in the balance sheet, the amount has fallen to INR 57 crore versus INR 282 crore in March 26. Can you let us know what is that number as such?
Wait a minute, boss. They have complete knowledge of this, let them tell. What is it?
These are the FDs with more than one year period.
Okay, FDs more than one year.
Yes. FDs of more than one year now reclassified within one year. If you see the other financial assets of the financial current asset, there is the amount that has been increased.
Okay. That amount has basically moved to the other. Sir, quarter-on-quarter interest cost has increased. Also, if I remove the one-off gain on account of stake sale in subsidiary, I think your other income has fallen quarter-on-quarter. Just wanted to know the reason for both of these things. Hello?
Yeah. Other income, if you see, for the quarter, it is around INR 80 crore. The interest income has increased from INR 25 crore -INR 46 crore. So INR 20 crore increase is the fixed deposit interest income.
No. Other income you are saying is INR 80 crore.
Yes, yeah. For H1. Q1 and Q2 put together from INR 40 crore, it has gone down INR 30 crore.
Yes. I am just saying that if it is September 26 versus June 26, if I am seeing, and I am removing the INR 10 crore divestment gain from other income. So INR 30 crore I have versus INR 40 crore in June 26. Just wanted to know reason for that?
So some Forex currency gain and losses between the two quarters.
INR 12 crore.
Around INR 10 crore. In quarter one, there was some foreign currency.
We will have to look at the loss and tell, but I think it must be the same. We have not done such a deep study. What is it?
Okay. That's okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, to ask a question, you may please press star and one. Our next question comes from the line of Sailesh Raja with 360 ONE Capital Market. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Congrats sir, for the great set of numbers. Sir, our roofing sheet volumes appear to have improved significantly, which I believe could be one of the key drivers of improvement in EBITDA per kg. So what is driving the sales growth in this segment, and who are all the competitors? What is our right to win? So how do you see this business scaling up in the next two, three years?
Boss, this business is our capacity right now, 60,000 ton into 12. We have a capacity of 700,000 ton, and I think we have done 45,000 or 135.
135.
We have done 135, so 700,000 divided by four. So 175. Right now, we have the scope to go up to 175 quarterly. We do not have any competition in this because our brand, we have developed all our niche products. We are doing very well in this segment.
Okay, sir. Which dia we are focusing, sir, in this roofing sheet?
Boss, this is also a building material. There is something solar [Non-English content]
Just to add to it, Sailesh, 50% goes into housing, 25% go into commercial and industrial, 25% go into other applications.
Other applications.
Okay. Sir, this is all above 2 mm dia or how it is? Thickness I am talking.
[Non-English content] , 0.4 even to 3.5 thickness.
Okay. Sir, around two years ago, we had targeted a reduction in power cost by INR 2 per unit, bringing down the cost to INR 5 per unit. Where do we stand against that target today?
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Okay.
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Also the freight cost sir.
Cost is our main focus area. [Non-English content]
Okay. Sir, including other financial asset, our total cash balance is around INR 2,500 crore. What is our plan for deploying cash efficiently? Have we ever evaluated the possibility of making upfront payment to the suppliers in exchange for yearly payment discount, thereby improving margin? Or is there any other plan?
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Okay sir. Thank you sir.
Thank you. Participants may press star and one to ask a question. Our next question comes from the line of Bharat Shah with BHARAT SHAH CAPITAL IDEAS PRIVATE LIMITED. Please go ahead.
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[Non-English content] Once again, hearty congratulations. I think a difficult quarter like last quarter, but I am glad that our focuses remain unstinted on profitability rather than just getting carried away by volume or this and that. I think overall focus on expanding the total profit pool, whether it comes from the mix, whether it comes from the volume growth, it comes also from the cost efficiency. All of that are levers for improving the profits. And I think, I personally believe that in a difficult environment, challenging situation, this is wonderful focus and excellent outcome which has been attained. So really glad about it.
Thank you, Bharat [Non-English content]
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And profit per tonne at operating level of close to 6,000.
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[Non-English content] Anubhav, on the free cash I wanted to understand, relatively last year our free cash generation was stronger. Anything which has impacted our free cash generation in the first half this year?
Bharat [Non-English content] we have paid some capital advances for the CapEx. If you see in the first half, we have spent INR 400 crore already in the first half versus in FY 2026, the whole year we spent INR 600 crore. In second half, the cash outflow will be pretty low in the next six months. That will improve the free cash flow. Below free cash flow, we did make dividend payments in the month of August, September. That also impacted the total net cash flow. If you look at the EBITDA to OCF, that will be better in FY 2027 versus FY 2026 once we close the books annually.
I see. So last year free cash was around INR 1,600 crore, right?
Last year it was around free cash flow INR 1,300 crore.
INR 1,300 crore. No, it was more, if I remember correctly, last year. Are you deducting the dividend from it?
No, before dividend. If you look at our presentation, slide number 19, we have shown the cash flow. Yes.
One minute. 19. One second. In 19, first half, how much is the free cash that we have generated?
So far, we have generated INR 700 crore, near about.
First half.
First half INR 700 and then CapEx of INR 400. So free cash flow is around INR 200 crore.
Yes. Last year it was INR 1,300 crore in the whole year, and this year it was INR 180 crore in the first half.
One is that dividend payment has been fully accounted for the dividend payment in the first half.
In the first half. Correct.
Yes. Now for the second half, we generate, like Sanjay mentioned, that we should do around INR 1,200 crore EBITDA, minus taxes and zero dividend and hardly INR 200 crore towards CapEx. So we will surpass INR 1,300 crore of free cash flow, which we generated last year on whole.
Last year's INR 1,300 crore will be more this year.
Yes.
Okay. Perfect. I think that's about it, and congratulations once again to the whole APL Apollo team. This is really an entrepreneurial delight, I suppose, of Sanjay-ji in a difficult year to achieve this. Congratulations.
Thank you, Bharat [Non-English content] Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, to ask a question, you may please press star and one. Our next question comes from the line of Akshay Chheda with Canara Robeco Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. I just have one question. Basically, if I just see that the product mix has improved QoQ or YoY, at least in the volume terms, but the same doesn't get reflected in the GP. Actually, if I just see the GP per ton, that has contracted QoQ. The entire EBITDA per ton improvement that has happened QoQ appears to be more from the operating leverage and the cost efficiencies that we spoke about. So what explains this GP per ton contract then? Logically, it should have improved, right? That is the only question I have.
Akshay, you are right. It is just one fact that Apollo brand also has now light structures. Realization on light structures is slightly lower than the overall APL Apollo product portfolio. That's why the GP per ton is around INR 500 per ton lower on quarter-on-quarter basis.
Yeah.
This is mainly because of light structures where the valuation is low, and so NSR is low and the GP per ton is also low.
What could be the contribution of these light structures in APL, if you could quantify?
25% of the mix.
35%? What was it in the-
25%.
25% in second quarter. What was it in 1Q?
Earlier, it used to be like mid double digit to high double digit.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Participants to ask a question, you may press star and one. Our next question comes from the line of Sneha from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Hi, team. Good evening and congratulations on great set of numbers. I just wanted to understand how is the current demand scenario. The reason I am asking is Q1 versus Q2, we have seen a very big jump in volumes, although we understand that Dubai has more or less remained muted. But leaving apart the roofing sheets where we have seen expansion happening, why did the APL Apollo Tubes volume increase so much? Where is this demand uptick coming from? That is the first one.
Sneha, APL Apollo demand is very good right now also. Because we leverage the total brand value, whether it is retail, we are using it fully. Earlier, our focus was on SG Premium as well. Now our entire focus is on Apollo brand. As you saw in Q2, Q3 also recently is doing good. We are not seeing any decline from anywhere. We are looking also at more than double-digit growth in this quarter and second half also. The roofing products, some of our lines also started in the month of July. I think this quarter we are targeting roofing product 175 around. 175,000 we are targeting roofing product also.
Understood, sir. You are saying the same mix [Non-English content] , which we saw in the second quarter.
UAE operation and SG Premium brand, these two I cannot commit anything because here we do not have any visibility. But APL Apollo brand and roofing product, we are very confident.
Understood, sir. How has October been for us, sir, so far?
October is good. As per [Non-English content]
Understood. Secondly, with respect to some quarters ago, you used to give that EBITDA bridge of how your margins are increasing, Anubhav Gupta. We see a big swing happening from 5500 odd levels to now around 6000 odd levels. Majority of the contribution [Non-English content] with respect to EBITDA margin?
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Sure, sir, will do that. But this is sustainable for your-
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No problem at all, sir. But [Non-English content] that this now EBITDA per ton of INR 6,000 this looks sustainable.
[Non-English content] Q3 is much better than this.
Q3 will be much better than this.
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Understood, sir. That was really helpful. Thanks a lot, team, and all the very best.
Thank you, Sneha ji.
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Our next question comes from the line of Bharat Shah with BHARAT SHAH CAPITAL IDEAS PRIVATE LIMITED. Please go ahead.
Anubhav, on slide 18, I think EBITDA per ton of the first half we are mentioning it is some INR 11,000 odd. I think it looks to be a typo.
Yes, it is. Thanks for highlighting. We'll correct it.
Yeah, okay.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to ask questions, you may please press star and one. Our next question comes from the line of Omkar Ghugardare with Shree Investment. Please go ahead.
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Boss, [Non-English content] focus [Non-English content] absolutely EBITDA 2200 cross [Non-English content] Number two, [Non-English content] Apollo brand [Non-English content] roofing product brand [Non-English content] premium [Non-English content] Dubai [Non-English content] Dubai [Non-English content] premium [Non-English content] but [Non-English content] Apollo brand [Non-English content] roofing product brand [Non-English content] growth year on year [Non-English content]
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Thank you, sir.
Thank you. To ask a question ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one on your touchtone telephones. Our next question comes from the line of Shaleen Kumar with UBS India. Please go ahead.
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Sanjay [Non-English content] sorry for repeating.
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Correct. So basically with the caveat that Dubai comes back, we can work with the INR 3,000 crore number in our mind for FY 2028.
Dubai and the steel availability in the country.
Steel availability in the country. Stabilization of situation.
Stabilization of both the thing as the container rates going to down. [Non-English content] we are ready for INR 3,000 crore.
[Non-English content] sir. Good sir. That's it from my side sir. Thank you.
Thank you, Shaleen Kumar.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Shweta Dikshit with Systematix. Please go ahead.
[Non-English content] sir. Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir [Non-English content]
We are at INR 6,000 per ton of EBITDA. But [Non-English content] steel prices [Non-English content] supportive [Non-English content] Last time, I agree completely that product mix definitely improved [Non-English content] But last time when we saw these kind of margins, [Non-English content] steel prices were very supportive. That was in FY 2023, roughly after the COVID revival. [Non-English content] if prices [Non-English content] normalize [Non-English content], if from 65,000 HRC falls back to 60,000 or maybe 55,000. [Non-English content] what kind of margins do we think sustainable [Non-English content]? 6,000 [Non-English content] or [Non-English content] 5,500 or 5,300 [Non-English content] around [Non-English content] [Non-English content]
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Also Shweta, in quarter two FY 2023, the quarter you are referring to, in that quarter we had very substantial gains in the coated pre-galvanized tubes. Because the difference between HR coil and pre-coated coils was very high. Because of COVID, China exports were shut, so Indian companies were exporting outside India. So there was shortage of GP coils in India and that category did really well for us, performed really well for us, and we had backward integration there. But this EBITDA of INR 6,000 per ton in quarter two FY 2027, this is much sustainable, like the points Sanjay ji mentioned, and also the capacity utilization operating leverage benefits what we are getting at a run rate of 960,000 ton per quarter. Our utilization rates are almost 70%-75%. So this EBITDA per ton is much more sustainable than what we saw in quarter two of FY 2023.
You may see the repetition in quarter three also in December quarter. Once we are able to deliver INR 6,000 per ton and above in two consecutive quarters, you will feel much more confident that this is now sustainable.
Then we change our guideline, then we are talking that now our target for next year is INR 6,000 - INR 6,500.
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Okay, understood. Thank you, sir. That's it from my side.
Thank you. Participants who wish to ask questions may press star and one. Our next question is from the line of Kumar Saumya with Ambit Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi sir, good evening. Am I audible?
Go ahead, Kumar, please.
On the Dubai INR 500 crore EBITDA, currently the capacity is about 300,000, right? And with 200,000 ton addition planned by the end of FY 2028.
Yeah.
Just want to understand the capacity.
Yeah. This capacity will increase to 500,000 tons as the brownfield expansion is underway. We are adding two new mills. By March, during all this disruption, we did not slow down on the brownfield expansion, Kumar. By March 2027, the Dubai capacity will be 0.5 million tons. And on that we can achieve-
INR 10,000 per ton.
INR 8,000 - INR 10,000 per ton EBITDA because those two new mills which are coming up, they are also a pretty high margin products.
Okay. Secondly, on the heavy and super heavy, if you could give some ballpark number, as in what is the share of this super heavy and heavy during this quarter specifically?
We have stopped giving that sensitive information. We can take this-
Yeah, it's fine. Okay, sure. Lastly, we talked about operating leverage helping us, but then again, we are adding 2 million tons of capacity over the next one year. Do you see this INR 6,000 still sustainable after we are adding those 2 million tons capacity over the next one or a half years?
Kumar, those new plants which are greenfield, they are pretty small in size, so they will not add to my fixed cost bill too much. Then rest of the expansion is in brownfield, which anyways will not hurt my existing fixed cost to a great extent. That is why I believe that now the capacity expansion does not hurt our EBITDA spreads too much like it used to do two, three years ago.
Got it. Lastly, on the price gap that we discussed in the start of the call. Is it possible to maintain this gap when, say, steel price starts to revert back, or if there's a moderation in steel price and the competitive intensity starts to go up? Because right now there's a lot of space between you and the second player and the third player. I just wanted to understand your view, how you're looking at it when the steel price starts to normalize.
Kumar, see, right now the two main segments, like APL Apollo brand and roofing products, they contribute almost 92%-93% to the total volume. Here we are not seeing much of impact from the lower or higher steel prices. Demand remains intact. Our margins remain intact because of better pricing. So no softness in EBITDA spreads as such. If steel prices go down, our SG Premium sales will start going up. That will boost the overall volume and like we are saying that on a metric basis on Excel sheet, EBITDA per ton may look slightly soft. But then whatever incremental volume comes from SG Premium, it will add to my absolute EBITDA.
We are not concerned per se, if steel prices go down that my EBITDA growth should taper down. No, it will only accelerate with the better volume from the SG brand.
Got it. Thank you. That was really it. Thank you.
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Our next question comes from the line of Shantanu Mishra, an Individual Investor. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. My question is slightly based on FY 2028 guidance that you had given earlier of 8 million ton capacity. If we consider that capacity, can we expect slight improvement in utilization post that capacity enhancement?
See again, we need to look our business from four verticals. APL Apollo brand, roofing product. These two segments we are pretty confident given the current existing geopolitical situation. We are confident that we will deliver double-digit volume growth in these two categories. Dubai, we are currently at a run rate of 100,000 ton per annum versus capacity which will be ready by March 2027, will be almost 500,000 tons. Whenever Dubai situation improves, we can immediately hit 200,000, 300,000, 400,000 ton in subsequent quarters. That run rate. Once the geopolitical situation improves, we assume that there could be some softness in the commodity prices also, which could lead to decline in steel prices in India as well. Then our SG Premium sales will take over.
The point what I am trying to make is we are not too much concerned with the movement of steel prices going up or down. Our business model is so resilient that we can drive our profitability if steel prices are going up by having better pricing, by focusing more on value-added products. If steel prices are going down, at the same time, our low value-added product, SG, can add to the momentum with the increased volume.
Yes, definitely, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Vikash Singh with ICICI Securities Limited. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Sanjay, I just have one question. Usually, we see that our exposure in housing is almost 50%, and this year the rainfalls were almost 13% in deficit. I want to ask you, do you have any old experience that the years when the rainfall is quite in deficit because a portion of this would be on tier two, tier three cities and farmers as well in the demand. Can we face some negative impact of that, or since this has not happened in the last few years, it should not happen this year as well?
It doesn't seem so because there is demand in housing. It doesn't seem like I will have any negative impact. If it is, it will be very slightly 2%-4% up or down in demand. But I don't think so because the way we are looking at our order books everywhere, the quotations that are coming are fine. People are not finalizing them yet due to higher steel price, but demand and offer inquiries are coming in large numbers.
And sir, in the lower grade that we compete in, since domestic material is not available there, will it be a loss to make it with imported material or is imported material a bit expensive?
Imported material will be a loss. Number two, that means there is a gap in secondary and primary.
When the gap increases with the secondary [Non-English content] with the time period of one or two years.
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Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Pratik Talvatkar with SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah, Pratik, go ahead, please.
Am I audible now?
You are audible, sir. You may proceed.
Yeah. Sir, thanks for the opportunity, sir, and congrats on a good set of numbers. Just one data point question. Sir, what is the VAP mix for the Q2 and the H2 for FY 2027?
Which mix?
Value-added mix.
Value-added. Pratik, we have given this in our presentation. Barring SG Premium, everything is value-added.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. We have no further questions, ladies and gentlemen. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thanks everyone for joining in. Look forward to see you again in our quarter three FY 2027 earnings call. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.