Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the earnings call of IRIS Business Services Limited for the quarter and half year ended September 30th, 2023. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. We have Mr. S. Swaminathan, CEO, Mr. K. Balachandran, CFO, Ms. Deepta Rangarajan, Whole-time Director, Mr. P. K. X. Thomas, CTO of the company. I will now hand the call over to Mr. S. Swaminathan. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all, all joining the call. And as usual, we seem to have, be having a fairly large turnout of people this call, which sometimes scares me. Not all are shareholders. Some of them are, some of them are, some analysts, some AIS. I can see them. I think it's a nice little group of people we have here. I think it's been a good half year. I think it's been a good quarter as well, and, it's been on expected lines. I think the big, the big highlight of the, of the last quarter and the last half year is how we stepped up our marketing expenditure. So what little cash we threw up, we spent it on marketing to increase our footprint.
What little cash we threw up, we spent money on acquiring, on being present at more conferences and more trips to customers. So customer outreach and marketing is where a lot of money actually went. Not a whole lot of money by any odd statement, but significant increase in the marketing outreach. And that's the one highlight that I want to emphasize. I mean, the revenue numbers are in front of you, the cost numbers are in front of you. And we also had to do some significant course correction, which is the reason why the expenses went up as much as they did. So we still are, I mean, you keep hearing about how people are losing their jobs and so on and so forth, and how people are available in the marketplace. They are, but good talent is still hard to find.
Good talent is still very expensive, and I think that's where the challenge lies for companies like us. So we've had to do some course correction, so that we retain people. We also have to pay more to get the right kind of people. A majority of people that you see in the IT space are actually come from a services background, so to find somebody with a product orientation is not very easy. They are, again, hard to find, and, you need to pay a lot more. So you will see that trend continuing. So the trade-off that we're gonna have going forward is balancing revenues and expenditure, which I think is very, very critical. Balancing revenues, well, balancing the revenue objective with the profitability objective, and that's going to be important, important trade-off for us going forward.
Sometimes you'll see one being more important, sometimes you'll see the other one being more important. But that's where we are. So for opening remarks, I'll hand over to Balu, our CFO and co-founder, who will then take you forward, and after we'll open it to questions. Balu, over to you.
Anyway, sorry, sorry. Thank you very much, Swaminathan, and very good afternoon to all of you. Also wish you a very happy Diwali. It's so good to meet all of you after six months for this conference call. So let me quickly delve into the numbers. I'm happy to report that we have, we have clocked all-time high on our numbers for both the quarter as well as for the half year. So that is very gratifying. And that, as Swaminathan also mentioned, was expected as well, because we have been doing well in our Collect segment, which is the segment where we offer services to regulators.
So let me quickly run through the highlights of financial performance, and I'll build, you know, more on the moment of H1 numbers, since the quarterly print doesn't really fully reflect the business dynamics. So let me say, you know, let me look at the H1 numbers, and, you know, you would see that for H1, our top line is up by 30%, while the profit after tax jumps by about 47%. The EBITDA margin compared to the corresponding half in the previous year is maintained at 13%. And some of these numbers have, we have already uploaded in our investor presentation, maybe about a couple of hours ago, on the exchange website. Some of you might have seen that as well.
So I'm not going into the, you know, other ratios, but you will see that commensurate with our increase in revenues and, you know, EBITDA, our other, you know, ratios also improved, especially, you know, our return on goodwill. And happily, we also reduced our debtors as days of sales to a small degree as well. So if you look at quickly look at our expenses, as you know, Swamy also mentioned, our costs are kept with the pace of top line, even the need to spend on new recruits along with higher sales and marketing outreach. It is expected because we are also ramping up our, you know, presence across markets.
If I look at the segment revenues, you will see the Collect segment revenues up sharply by close to 70%. On the other hand, revenues from the Create segment, which has IRIS CARBON, IRIS GST, and automated data flow product called IRIS iDEAL, is a little more modest at about 10% over. Our non-recurring revenues, because our Collect revenues have gone up, especially the implementation part, it's also now at about 36%, compared to our previous period, where it was lower.
Well, that was expected, and we did mention that in the previous conference call. If I look at the revenue geographically, you will see that, our revenues from abroad, our export revenues have gone up. Indian revenues have come down to about 30% of the overall pie. So before I wind up, that's pretty much from my side. Before I wind up, I just want to mention that, we did mention our order book has improved, compared to where we were. We did mention that in May 2023. So, that situation, you know, is, it continues. We do have, you know, an improved order book position compared to where we were, the previous year. So we, we are, looking at executing that well.
At the same time, give that much needed push to the market on the create side. Thank you so much.
You know, I hope this gets me a few laughs. I keep telling Balu that as long as we keep standing, it's often like age, you know, if you live long enough, you will keep hitting new highs every day. So as long as we keep performing, as long as we're there as a company, I think we'll keep hitting new highs in terms of revenues every year. And as I've kept saying all the time, without resources, I think, I think a 20% growth every year is possible, and that's really, it's, it's not, it's, s o I would say it's a no-brainer. It's only to work, it's only to work on it. And I think there are mandates available.
I think we can always grow a little bit faster. If there aren't mandates available, that basically takes a toll on, on how fast we grow, because the replacement market is very difficult to get. But going forward, the strategy that we're actually taking is to go beyond the replacement market and go to non-mandate-led activities, and that entire thing is being led by Deepta. She's been working on it for quite some time now. So I'll hand over to Deepta for you, for her to make a few comments about it, and then you can take off with questions on the radio if you want to. So over to you, Deepta.
Thank you. So, I think we've spoken in the past as well about our disclosure management market opportunity, which takes off beyond mandates. So this essentially is just targeting the office of the CFO around process efficiencies and improvement. So we're, you know, happy to say that we have actually just rolled out the new improved disclosure management solution in the marketplace. We've also tied up with a couple of early partners, including we have a partner in Canada, which is looking at taking this solution out to the North American as well as the European market, starting from the beginning of next year, so starting January. And we are also tying up with other partners across Europe and also directly with end companies.
So we believe that once it's actually gained, a kind of, you know, traction or momentum, or just like we've done with all our other products, once it sets or settles in the marketplace, then, you know, we can start seeing a ramp-up in, this, this area of the business, which is, you know, going to be non-mandate driven, and we are looking forward to that. So that should kind of even out, our business, and, you know, the, the business dependence on the mandate-driven opportunity. Thank you.
The other big theme that we worked on this past year is really a GST, is in the case of really of data-enabled lending. And I have with me Gautam, who will hopefully share with us what's been happening on the GST front. As you know, we became an IRP last year, one of four IRPs. I mean, we had hopes from it. We still are doing okay, but as I said, these are all areas that are very, very competitive. There are four IRPs in the country, but again, the market that we are chasing, the replacement market, the market we are chasing there is a market for application through GST data. So, Gautam, over to you, if you can share with us what's happening on the GST front?
Sure. So on similar lines, you know, we are looking at the, because the GST mandate is, is all in place, the e-invoicing mandate is now applicable for all companies in India which have a turnover of more than INR 5 crore. E-way bill, e-invoicing, GST mandate. So now we are looking at, in the replacement market, looking at additional, process efficiencies and improvements for the CFO, for the office of the CFO, and, looking at building some, new initiatives and new products. One of them is in the area of accounts payable automation, because the whole process in India has changed post-implementation of GST, and we have had some early wins, in that space.
Now that we are also an IRP, which means that we are one of the four private entities who are allowed to generate an e-invoice. The current mandate is for taxpayers over INR 5 crore turnover. We are hoping that once this takes off, and the mandate comes, you know, is lowered, the threshold is lowered to INR 1 or INR 1.5 crores, which is a very long tail of taxpayers, it is actually going to, you know, connect the entire the vendor, suppliers ecosystem with the large anchor base. It is going to automate the accounts payable as well as the receivable cycle, both in terms of compliance as well as collections and payouts.
We are looking at offering some value-added services through the IRP platform. There is a need for automation, there's a need for auto payouts, collections, invoice archival, storage for the small taxpayers that we'll be focusing on. These are some of the initiatives that we are working on. There is also news about some of the exempt categories, such as the BFSI space, which is outside of e-invoice because of the huge volumes. But now with private IRPs coming on board, they are expected to also come under this mandate. So that could be a new market opportunity for us to really target, because the volumes are going to be huge from that segment.
Thank you, Gautam. I think also this whole e-invoicing takes us into a new area, and while, while traditionally we focused mostly on the larger companies, we're also trying to see how in a cost-effective manner, we can also go to smaller companies and offer solutions and see what partnerships we can strike to make that happen. The last person I have for you on the call, who is perhaps the most important person in the company today, who is basically making our products scalable, our products sturdier and leading the entire technology and actually transformed how technology works with IRIS, is P.K.X. Thomas. So, Thomas, over to you. Tell us where we are on the technology side, what the challenges are, and what the priorities are going forward.
On the technology, like, you know, like, any of our, any of the companies which are in this space, in compliance space and, in the newer technologies, we, we focus most, mostly on, securities and security compliance. We give importance to high level of security. While doing that, we also have to have a challenge actually, to ensure that the, the kind of technologies which we use and the kind of, application which we do, has the latest of the, latest technology trends, which is actually being used across the world. So, we want to ensure that our quality of our products are actually world standard, made in India, and also the, the quality, that the security standards are also pretty high, compatible with, any of the banking solutions or other, other solutions in such spaces.
So those both are big challenges which we face. And we have a set of like you know hardcore people who actually can crack it and actually ensure that you know that level of technology standards is maintained with the level of securities which we need.
Over to you, sorry.
You want to talk about the Surat center?
We also have started one more development center in Surat. Actually, like, you know, Surat being a place where there is lots of good talent, very good quality talent available. And that has actually given us a lot of boost in actually, like, you know, coming out with more products and product lines. And one is actually, like, you know, the leadership quality of people there, and second is actually the commitment of those people to actually, like, you know, to work. Both are actually equally very, very high. So that center is actually, like, you know, working hard and, like, you know, giving us lot of support and, like, you know, a lot of product improvements on from that space.
Thank you, Thomas. Rocco, I think we should throw open the floor for questions. I will now hand over to Rocco, who is moderating the session here.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question- and- answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the queue, you may press star then two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles.
Rocco, why the name-
The first question today.
Rocco, the name of somebody in The Godfather, the movie?
Yes. Yes, sir. The first question comes from Ankit Minocha with MRLR Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Good evening. Good evening, Mr. Swaminathan and Mr. Balachandran. I'm, I'm, and it's good to kind of connect with the management, at least for us, for the first time. So congratulations on a great set of numbers and we started out with the journey ahead. My first question is with regard to the sales and marketing setup of the company currently. So I wanted to understand what is, how are the teams aligned? What are the kind of professionals we have on board to kind of lead the business development and the sales functions currently? And considering that the businesses are slightly different customer bases, how do you manage that in the company, and how do you kind of see that evolving over the next few years?
So should I take the question now, Rocco, or should we have the questions come together, and we aggregate them and answer it later? Rocco, what's your call? You're the boss.
Yes, sir. You can, you can answer that individual question, and then we'll move to the next one.
Thanks, Rocco. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Ankit, thank you very much for your question, and as you rightly said, the business is slightly complicated. There are different divisions of the business, and the dynamics are very, very different. So the business of iFile, which is the Collect segment, is driven by RFPs. So the challenge is to get in front of regulators and tell them that we are there and then ensure that the RFPs come to us. So we build RFPs. So the whole challenge is get in front of regulators as early as we can, and get to know where the regulators are at any point in time, and then build, build, build on their RFPs. We win some, we lose some. That's how it is.
Then the sales process is basically about, you know, going to conferences, buttonholing these people, catching hold of them, and presenting our credentials, so they are willing to listen and take it forward. In the case of the Create segment of the business, in the case of GST, I will let Gautam answer the question, and in the case of CARBON, I'll hand over the question to Deepta. Gautam, GST?
I think I'll take the iDEAL in that regards. Gautam will handle iDEAL as well as GST. Deepta will handle CARBON.
Okay, so iDEAL again is a mandate-driven opportunity where there's a mandate for banks to, you know, file to the Reserve Bank of India. So it's more of an inbound thing automatically, which comes in. And we have a near monopoly with iDEAL, with more than 85 or financial institutions actually you know using the product. So it's more of an inbound thing, and there's little of sales and marketing that needs to be done. But on the GST business, it's a highly competitive market, the Indian SaaS landscape, the taxtech landscape. So we have a sales team headed by our India sales head, and regional sales managers in North, South, West.
And they are aided by a marketing team and an inside sales, which is a part of the marketing, which actually helps generate leads. We participate in a lot of events, CFO events, taxtech events, seminars, that's on the offline mode. Online, we help build the whole mindshare by conducting webinars on a fortnightly basis. There is the usual digital marketing, which is done by the team, ensuring SEO. We rank amongst the tops and we do some little good amount of Google AdSense also. So that's the traditional, you know, the sales and marketing approach that's being followed.
We, the entire process is tracked through our, through our CRM process, the whole, you know, 6-8 sales cycle of the moment a prospect is identified till the time closure is, is obtained. Ensuring that a funnel is, the funnel keeps going at, at every point of time. Anything specific that I've not covered? Otherwise, I'm passing it on to Deepta.
Before Deepta comes on, one small thing that I must mention, you know, Gautam seemed to indicate that iDEAL thing is a monopoly and there is inbound. I want you to know that we don't get business because we are handling the RBI compliance platform. They're completely two different things. I want you to know that when iDEAL was first launched, and there was a need for iDEAL in the market, the first year we had only four customers. Over time, the quality of our products has stood out, and people call us today not because we are working with RBI and compliance, but because we have a viable product, we have a great product, and we have the best product in the market. Even so, we do lose customers. Out of 120 customers in the country, we have 85. That's a good number.
We still, I mean, I still keep asking the iDEAL team as to why we don't have all the customers. Somewhere along the way, L1 and 2 works, and that's not really, the procurement rules come in the way of, of, of our being able to sell to them. But, I want you to know, even the iDEAL is hard work. Even the inbound query comes in because people know that we handle RBI, but that's not why they give it to us. We still have to go out and make an effort and work hard to get the customer. So if, if Gautam, by mistake, gave you the impression that it comes on its own, it does not. It's still hard work. Over to you, Deepta, for CARBON.
Sure. Thank you. So, CARBON as well is enterprise SaaS. It's targeted at the international markets. So it is, sales and marketing is always a challenge. And as we ramp up, of course, it's even more of a challenge. But the way we handle it is multiple prongs. One is we work with partners. So partners and, you know, channel partners is a big part of it. We also have direct customers, and the way we acquire is digital. Digital acquisition, outbound, inbound leads, lead generation. We participate in events. One of the big things for, like, CARBON, which is targeted at also to the CFO, is references, testimonials, because it's all about trust and building the brand in markets like Europe and the U.S..
So we work very hard on ensuring that we get customer testimonials on, you know, public platforms like Gartner, G2, Capterra, et cetera. We, you know, build a lot through that public voice, basically. We also get that, you know, case studies. We now do references. Now, with the disclosure management, one of the things, of course, is since we have a set of existing customers, you know, it becomes a natural target to go back to them to see whether we can upsell, you know, new modules, such as the disclosure management module. Then we continue to look to acquire, you know, customers through a combination of on-site and digital.
So as we speak right now, we have colleagues of ours in the U.S., you know, participating in a host of events we have in Europe as well. So that's, that's the way, that's the way it is. That said, we are definitely looking to strengthen the, sales and marketing infrastructure because we believe that's going to be key to scaling, a property like CARBON in the markets, in the international markets over the coming years.
So if you see the items in the financial statement that we put out, two things will stand out. One is, of course, the marketing expenses are going from some INR 44 lakhs to INR 88 lakhs, and you will also see some increase in the traveling costs. The traveling costs are basically feet on street, going and getting in front of customers. So since of the 6,000+ customers we actually have, all but 1,000 were acquired one at a time. The 1,000 that came came through a partner who basically came with his bulk, a number of customers. So what we're now trying to do is to be able to get in front of every customer directly and be visible to every customer. For large number of them, we are, for a few, we are not. So we're trying to do that.
The iDEAL customers are not so many, so even if you cut out 100-odd customers from, for iDEAL, it'll still be about 65,000-odd customers for core potential customers of the DM. So the challenge is to basically get them to experience other components of DM and leverage the relationship that we have, where they use CARBON for compliance filings, to take them beyond that. And as what Vito was saying, the customer testimony is huge. I mean, nothing like a happy customer to be able to convince people. And when I say happy customer, these are customers who we—so one of the key metrics on this we evaluate a marketing team, is whether they can get the customer to come and be vocal about it.
Can the customer go out and say things about us? Doesn't matter if the customer says great things or not so great things. There are customers who not so great things, you will see it there. And, and so I strongly recommend that you go to G2 and take a look at it. But when the customers, even, even if the customer doesn't say anything, anything great about us, at the end of the day, that gets us noticed. So our entire strategy has been, be positioned in the market with a great product, so that you're in the consideration set of everybody who wants to buy. Now, just because you're in the consideration set doesn't mean gives you automatic conversion. It basically means that you are in the consideration set. Some will convert, some will not convert.
One tremendous thing actually happened recently: one company that came to us who converted to us, one of the big companies, a multi-billion-dollar company. And they basically told us that when it comes to a competitively priced product, even big companies do take up and take, sort of, take notice, as long as the other product boxes in terms of quality and reliability and integrity are all ticked. So our approach is: get the product out there, be as good as you can be, and that's actually helped us. Thank you, Mr. Minocha. I hope that I have answered the question for you.
Yes, thank you. I mean, that, that's really, really helpful. And, my second question is on growth outlook. So I mean, I just wanted to understand that, I mean, what we've delivered in H1, we had already indicated a higher order book and that kind, that kind of comes through immediately. But kind of do we see on a short-term outlook, a very similar trajectory for H2 as well, in terms of growth, especially because it was mainly from the Collect division? Secondly, in the long term, in terms of growth drivers, just as top management, what are your thoughts in terms of what can be achieved maybe in the next 3-5 years, going forward? Yeah, those are the questions.
Usually we don't answer these questions, but I'll give you a broad sense of where we are heading. You know, we all live in optimism. We all live in the hope that something could be actually happen. But at the same time, we have to cut the hype to size. We have to look at how much money we have and act accordingly. I think we've done really well based within the limited resources we actually have. We were able to attract people, but still not enough. We still need to strengthen the team significantly. So I would be able to give you a much better, better answer to this if we had a budget to work with, a marketing budget to work with to grow. That has not happened. And once that happens, I think we'll be.
You know, the people, there are only two kinds of people who can actually walk into an Armani showroom to shop: people without money, knowing that they have no money, and people with money, knowing they're going to buy something. We belong to second, the first category. We have no money, so we are window shoppers. So we have plans, we keep drawing up plans, we keep thinking of what to do. We keep playing games with each other, literally, with imaginary money. We know that given that we have 6,000+ customers, and of which about 5,000 are potential customers of DM.
Given that we have this company that we've now partnered with in Canada, which basically has a footprint over U.S. and Europe, with almost 2,000 customers, I think if we have a good product, a product for which there is a demand in the market, and a product that's, that's benchmarked against the best, we should do well. Does it necessarily mean that we can grow faster than the 20%-25%? Absolutely, yes, if we had the money. But we don't have the money at this point in time, so we have to be very careful in terms of how we spend the money. We still live on, you know, literally physical outreach, with a little bit of marketing support to get our names out there. But that's where we are. So that's what, where we are in the long run.
If you have any creative ideas in terms of how we can get the money into, money in to be able to do the marketing, I think that will really help us significantly. I'll let Balu take this question. I hope I've taken the easier part, Balu. You have the more difficult part.
I don't know what else to add. I think you said it all. I just want to say that the short-term trajectory is not looking bad. I'll leave it at that.
There's a newspaper called The Hindu in Tamil Nadu, where the joke is that they check that the person is dead before they write an obituary, and they check the obituary with him. So Balu belongs to that category. So please bear with him. I'm the sales guy in the company, Balu is the finance guy in the company, so you can imagine what profiles we convert. Mr. Minocha, sorry if I can't be more precise, but that's how we run the company.
Yeah, thank you. That's helpful. Thanks a lot. Wish you all the best, kind of, for taking off and et cetera.
I really appreciate your good wishes. Thank you.
Thank you. And our next question today comes from Rohit Pari, with, as an individual investor. Please go ahead.
When Rohit comes, we all tremble at our knees.
So thank you for the opportunity, sir, and congrats on a very nice set of numbers. It's nice to see color cleaning up. So, before the numbers, sir, could you elaborate on the Board Meeting yesterday? So there was in the agenda, we had the authorized share capital increase as well as the ESOP. Could you speak about that?
Sure, we can. The Board Meeting, sir, biscuits and tea. And, no, what happened was, s ee, the last time we had ESOP was before the IPO. Now, at that time, the considerations were very different, and the considerations this time are very, very different. So why did we want an ESOP scheme in place? We want an ESOP scheme in place because we are trying to attract new people. And one thing that's happened is that most people that we want to hire have priced themselves beyond our range on a cash basis. Unless we do a combination of cash and ESOP, we will not be able to attract people.
And we've had significant resistance from people who want to join, who are willing to join us for the business that we are in, but again, reluctance on the part of our inability to create the compensation that's in effect. So we were looking at the ESOP for two things, o ne is for the existing people, and one for the people that we're gonna bringing in, we are bringing in. So when we took the matter to the Board, the Board asked us a lot of questions and wanted a lot more information than what we had at the Board Meeting. So they basically said, "You know, why don't you think?" So we had an ESOP scheme, everything was there, but they also wanted to know how the allocation was gonna happen and what metrics were gonna happen.
And since this is the first time we're actually doing ESOP after going IPO, those factors actually came in. And more importantly, the ESOP was gonna happen at market price, at no discount, mind you. So they basically asked very, very fundamental questions on that and wanted more information. So at that point in time, we basically said, "Why don't we defer a discussion on the ESOP for now, on the understanding that we will come back to the Board very soon with the scheme so that we can actually make it happen." The authorized capital increase was also linked to the ESOP for the simple reason that since we are in the market raising money, if we add the money raised and the ESOP, we would be above the authorized capital. So we basically said, "Let's use this opportunity".
If and when we get investors to come in, we would have to come to the Board, come to the, shareholders anyway, to get the, to get, to get their approval. But until such time as that happened, we said, "Let's raise the authorized capital to be ready for a situation where investors come to, to invest in the company." So that was the whole thing. So authorized capital increase and the ESOP were linked together. Since the ESOP got deferred, that also got deferred because we also, we had connected the two things, right? We are increasing the authorized capital to also allow for the ESOP. Technically, we didn't need to do that because the current situation, if it was only the ESOP, would have allowed, would have, would have allowed it, but that was not the case. We had connected with.
We linked the ESOP with this thing, and that's how the two got jumbled up, if you want to call it that.
Understood. So, I mean, since you spoke about the capital, could you speak about that? I mean, what are we thinking there?
I think the more appropriate question is, what are investors thinking? Because what I'm thinking, I mean, what I'm thinking is less relevant than what investors are thinking. You know, it comes back to the same thing. Yes, I'm mindful of the fact that the market has re-rated the company, and there's been some movement upwards in terms of the price. You also know that the promoters don't have the money to do a rights issue. We've also had chats in the past in these meetings, where people have said the promoters don't put money into rights issues as a back signal. We don't have money for that, which is why the rights issue is a non-starter. Now, if we have to raise money, we will not raise money at these valuations.
I think the valuation is significantly better than what, than when I said this about six months ago or one year, or one year ago. I think if the market realizes the value in the company and re-rates it, I think we would be ready to go ahead. Investors we've been talking to, we've been knocking on doors. People are interested. You know, IRIS is absolutely, everybody wants the company, but they're not gonna sell. IRIS is absolutely, that's the most important thing. So given that we are in a situation where 20% growth is more or less guaranteed quarter after quarter after quarter, if we have to be resigned to that, we have to be resigned to that. But at the same time, it's not being resigned to that, we're still trying to go out and make it happen.
If, Rohit, you want to write out a check for INR 100 crore, I'll be outside your door tomorrow.
That's a very nice picture, sir.
I'm not laughing. Rohit, I'm not laughing.
No, I'm just imagining you writing out a check for INR 100 crore. I think I'll be in jail if I do that.
No, don't be in jail. I mean, all your money is legit, and basically, you will share with Ankit Minocha because he's also very interested in coming, you know, I hope.
Thank you for that answer, sir. I just want to touch on Collect a little more. Like last quarter, in the AGM, you spoke, I mean, in the annual report, you spoke about having an INR 120 crore order book. Could we speak about, over what, I mean, I'm guessing this order book is not to be executed within one year. So what is the tenure of this order book?
That's over Balu. Balu will answer the question. All the easy questions I take, the difficult questions Balu takes.
So this, 120 crore order book, of course, it splits over a couple of years. So this also linked to one large implementation order that we have, which is from the top offering of SARB, which you mentioned in the previous call as well. So we expect, you know, some more orders to come from them. Maybe not of this magnitude, but there, there is, you know, an overall, you know, envelope of work which we're executing there.
My sense is this particular INR 120 crore, which we currently talked about in the AGM, I think, you know, it has been expanded and even, even after executing, you know, some amount of work, we still are at about INR 120+ crore at this point of time. We would feel that, you know, this could be executed over a period of, you know, 18-24 months.
Okay. So, just to clarify, Balu sir, we have begun the execution there already, and that is contributing to the Collect growth, and we expect the remaining implementation of INR 120-odd crore to happen over a span of, so today's November 2, 2023, we expect to complete it by December 2025. Is that right?
Yeah, let me just, you know, let me just, you know, qualify this. When we say INR 120, it is just not the Collect part alone. It is a combination of what is, during Collect, of course, of which a good, you know, quality has come from the new orders. And plus, what is currently there from our, recurring revenues, which is anyway coming, you know, year after year, which is now, you know, I would say it's within INR 55-INR 50 crores.
Sir, I understand, sir. So, so it's a mix of both the revenues that, the recurring revenues of INR 55-INR 56 crore, which we'll execute at, on an annual basis, plus whatever? So it's very I mean, so, so there's a little bit of a confusion there, Balu, so the reason I'm asking is, you have this Collect segment revenue, which is gonna be integrated over two years, and then we have the Create segment, which is an annual recurring of INR 55 crore every year. So, so, I mean, we have-
Collect, Collect also is a recurring revenue element. Collect, we have customers who give us revenues on a, so Collect is also a recurring element. And, you know, when there's a new implementation, new orders coming in, the Collect non-recurring part really goes up. So only the Collect has the AMC and the new orders.
Understood. Fair enough, sir. Fair enough. Just a follow-up. I mean, so I just want just to transition on this order book, because we see, the recurring revenue that we have overall in the company, INR 55-INR 56 crore. Now, if I take a time period of two years from here, technically the order book for the recurring revenues is INR 120 crore by itself, right? Because we are expecting that revenue to repeat every year. And then we have this implementation, which is a one-time revenue, which is to be done over a two-year period.
So this, I mean, it creates a little bit of a confusion, because I'm guessing the order book that you're referring to has a recurring revenue for this year and then the implementation revenue for the next two years. So, just a thought there, if you can dissect it a little better, that might help to understand the order book better.
I understand. The order book has two components, one is which is recurring, and one which is one time. So we haven't, you know, you know, we haven't segregated in that manner. And we could do that, but, you know, that is giving too much information back.
No, I understand. So, but it creates a confusion because the recurring part is only for this financial year, while the non-recurring part is for the next two years. If the whole order book is given for the same time frame, then I would guess the number would be higher by INR 50, INR 60, INR 80 crore, probably.
I agree. So, Rohit, one of the motivations when it comes to sharing information is also to confuse the competition.
Super. Okay.
So very often what happens, we reach the stage, Rohit, when there are people taking notes of what we're actually doing. And one of the big struggles that we have as managers of the company is to figure out how much information can actually end up compromising us with the competition. See, it's one thing to give the information to the investors, that's fine. But, you know, there are also people who come on the call who basically are representing the competition, who basically want the information for their own ends, and that hurts us at times.
Okay, I understand, sir. I hope, I mean, please continue giving more confusing information in that case. The next question I have on Collect again, sir, I believe the COVID has sort of created a delay in a lot of the mandates and the government focusing on recovering from COVID. We had talked about this in the past. Since then, I guess we have won two, three deals, the South Africa being the big one. Sorry, on the South Africa basis, one confirmation is that, in addition to the INR 120 crore mentioned, you said we have, is there more that is potentially to be added or all the adding has already been done? Or do you think more implementation component or some other components can come online here?
Okay, now, this 120 crore is not South Africa. Already, crore is a component.
Sure. Of course, sir.
Okay. Let me just make sure that we understood that.
Yeah.
But, compared to where we were in the last conference call, contractually, we have progressed in the South African, you know, deal. So I would say, some further elements of, you know, execution requirements are coming.
Okay, so that would mean we'll be adding to this order book in that case. Is that right?
Correct. If you look at that particular bucket.
Okay, perfect. And on Collect, could you speak about that a little more? Because in the, have more RFPs started coming, are some countries opening up to implement more of the, more XBRL implementation?
The answer is yes. There are countries which are actually coming in, in that, formidable path of moving towards a bigger XBRL implementation. At the same time, some of them are not necessarily wanting to work with us for a number of reasons. There is a language barrier. So French Africa, Morocco, had an RFP some time ago where I think we may end up losing it, the way it looks at this point in time. And so there are markets where there are more and more RFPs coming out. What has also happened, Rohit, and this is an important thing: I think somewhere along the way, the global recession has also affected the abilities of companies to spend.
So while we point out to them that moving towards an electronic disclosure platform and improved regulatory oversight can actually help them save money, in the short run, it actually costs them money. So many countries are actually looking for funding to be able to do this. So, you know, we know a couple of cases where the World Bank has stepped in. We know a couple of cases where DFID has stepped in.
ADB.
Uh, sorry?
ADB.
We also found a couple of cases where ADB stepped in. So, for example, ADB is willing to fund the Philippines, but the Philippines has a bigger priority in terms of implementation. Today, for example, Egypt wants to go into direction in certain areas, but Egypt, given that they are currently negotiating an IMF loan, that's top priority for them. So there are. I think the global recession is actually also affecting countries' ability or willingness to actually move towards electronic disclosure among the regulators. I mean, I never thought a day would come when a small company like, like IRIS, would actually be affected by global issues, but we are affected by global issues, and we see this every day. So I mean, the, s o I think while COVID has certainly. After COVID, people have actually woken up and started doing new things.
The fact also remains that COVID has taken a toll on countries' finances. So, for example, Bangladesh took two steps forward and one step backward, two steps, three steps backward. So there are green shoots, but at the same time, they are not necessarily sufficiently long for us to get hugely excited. We are comfortable. It's okay. I mean, it sort of works well. So what we are also trying to do in the same context is to try and revisit old customers and see whether we can do upgrades, we can do new stuff, we can move to incorporate new technology. Ultimately, ultimately, what's the objective? The objective is, given where we are today, can we keep growing at 20%+ every year going forward? And that will continue.
Understood. Following up on the previous participant on sales, so we have appointed Mr. Thomas as a CTO for the company. So does it make sense for us, or how do you think of having a chief sales officer? Is it difficult because we have different segments catering to different institutions?
Absolutely. I think, I think having one common sales officer is difficult. The dynamics are very, very different. But we are trying our level best to get the right set of people. That's why the ESOP was very, very critical. But it'll happen soon, so we're not terribly concerned about it. It'll happen soon, and you know, we are not going away, the world is not going away. Until the world, unless the world comes to an end, but which is unlikely the way it looks right now. So we are looking at strengthening the sales team, where we are recruiting people. But recruitment has not stopped. Our marketing team has significantly, significantly strengthened. So I'll ask Deepta to share with you the nature of the work being done by the marketing team and how they're actually working on.
Deepta, you want to talk about marketing? Because marketing, because CARBON is going to be the big driver of growth, and that's where the marketing team is doing a huge amount of work, CARBON as well as GST.
Sure. So, so this is like we mentioned, like we mentioned kind of even earlier, I think both, CARBON and GST enterprise SaaS, there's a lot of, like, you know, digital in the marketing side, right? So there is kind of, you know, webinars, there is outbound, inbound. We keep trying to strengthen the way we work, kind of organically as well, trying to grow the, you know, trying to grow our presence. So, so that, that's kind of one part of it. The other part is physical, which is events, you know. So we try to participate in kind of, you know, more and more events. So there's, there's definitely an increased, spend on, on that front.
Since CARBON is very international, oriented, let's put it like that, there's a lot of conferences and events that we go for in Europe and the U.S., and then around that, we try to do kind of like a, you know, a whole series of meetings as well. And, like I already mentioned, we also try to do consciously, kind of, customer, you know, success stories, customer testimonials, as much as customer publicity and customer references as possible, makes a huge difference. I think it's probably the same team that we try both across CARBON and GST.
That said, like, Swaminathan already said, we are certainly looking to see how to strengthen the sales infrastructure as well, because we do believe that that can really help us unlock far more on the base that we have built.
Absolutely. Also, another example, recently, SEBI said that you have to report related party transaction, and that becomes an add-on to what we're already doing. So there are adjacent opportunities in terms of products, which also wherein the customer delivery side, and the people working with customers on delivery are also taking ownership for revenues. And I think that's a very, very powerful sign. So there are people who may be working with a customer or working with a bunch of customers on MCA filings or other filings, who are actually now engaging with customers and saying, "You know what? We now have a related party more transaction module." So do you want to start using that? So there are adjacent opportunities that are actually coming, and I think the growth in digital reporting is what we are driving.
The fact that we have so many customers already on board, whether it's GST or MCA, gives us huge confidence in India that things will actually grow and go further. So that's, that's really what, what the growth driver is currently. If we had the money, we will be even more aggressive and we'll do much, much more.
Thank you, Swaminathan. Like, following up on the great customer feedback that we received for the first filing we did with the energy company in U.S. How difficult or easy is it to transition such a company, like India doing first for them? So how easy is it to convince them to do an SEC filing with us, assuming they are working with a competitor?
See, the thing to understand is that the energy compliance actually happens through a different department of the company, and the SEC filings from the CFO's office. They're two different sets of people. So, is it possible to take the linkage from, take a link from one and go to the other? I think we get an audience. Will it necessarily translate into something where they tie up with you even for SEC? I think it's quite possible, but it's not as easy as it seems. That's one. But ultimately, I think it's still a lot, it's a lot easier than Maxwell scoring all those runs today, so the other day. So I think it's still much easier than that. So but, but, but let Deepta take the question. I know Deep, probably Deepta saw the match anyway.
So, yes, I do. So, Rohit, it is. I mean, it's not like a cinch. You know, it's not that just because we've got a FERC customer, we can just automatically pull them in to ACFR, because the reporting teams are different. And, you know, and sometimes they find that, like, let's say, CARBON for FERC has turned out really, really well for them, compared with what they were using earlier. And so they have consciously decided to come with us only for the FERC part. Having said that, there are two things that we are seeing kind of play out. One is because we already have access to those customers, and because we are already empanelled with them, so to say.
You know, so many of these are large energy companies that have these contracting processes. So since we are part of that, and we have started showing some of them our Disclosure—obviously, all of them, our Disclosure Management solution as well, some of them seem to be interested in evaluating and taking a look at that. So the entry is there. Like, we've got a foot in the door, let's put it like that. It's not that the, the deal is done, but we have a foot in the door. So that's obviously a space that we're trying to, kind of, you know, leverage and see how we can get them to test us, test out our—test out our, do test drives, et cetera. We've got some good.
Among the testimonials, we've got, we've got one, large energy company, for example, that has named one of our, our largest competitor, and basically said we found out CARBON was far better, far more intuitive. So we try, we try to use that in our conversations, basically. But it doesn't mean that people just switch to us simply because they're a full customer.
Deepta said it's not a cinch. It also doesn't mean that we have them in a clinch?
So, next is, I just wanted to get a follow-up on the other mandates that we were excited about, like the [audio distortion] opportunity, the expanded [audio distortion] customer base, and the ESG mandate in [audio distortion]. So, is there any developments here? And, sort of an add-on here is the - so while the Collect segment is firing well, I believe the Create segment is dependent on mandate, at least for the Disclosure Management files. So how do we see growth in Create, which over the last 2-3 quarters has been relatively subdued as compared to its really strong path?
I think the ability to get non-mandate related customers will be hampered by the money, availability of money, number one. Number two, on the ESG front, I think the mandate has been going quite slowly. I don't see any great urgency on the part of other regulators in the most countries to basically implement it right away, though there are indicators that it might pick up pace soon. I don't know to what extent the global slowdown has an impact on these regulators and their behavior. And, I'll let Balu take that question. Balu, what, what?
No, the ESG opportunity is good, for sure. But there are, you know, there are, you know, talks coming from the market that it might get postponed by, perhaps a year or so. Of course, the final word is still not out, that's what we hear. But the [audio distortion] 2024, you know, starting when you need to submit ESG results in Europe, people might get some further leeway, and that's what we hear. Having said that, you know, there are companies who are our customers, who are looking at, you know, what should they be doing with the ESG reports.
So we are planning to get, you know, start having a dialogue with these customers from, you know, next year, early next year onwards. So that is certainly good. Outside that, you know, the U.S., in the U.S., there was a lot of expectation that the ESG reporting requirement from the SEC, and that is, you know, because it fit in the room, because almost all the large market cap companies are from the U.S. That has been pushed back maybe by another six months or so. So that is another development that has happened in the ESG area.
Outside that, you know, from the U.S. state reporting, which is supposed to go to the national, you know, I mean, supposed to go to machine, the machine, machine language-ready format. That there, I think there is slowly some movement. FDTA, that is the act, so that is, you know, something which we expect to gather some pace in the next couple of years.
Also, iDEAL, actually talking of in a few markets.
iDEAL, you know, right now, India and one, one more country where we are talking,
Sure.
South Africa.
Sure.
So one more thing that we are trying to go with is trying to see whether we can monetize the data side of it. So can we create a significant traction on the consumer side? That's also something we are pursuing, where we have been talking to various people and trying to see, trying to push the products. I think the monetization is still some time away, but we are optimistic that something can happen, next year.
Yeah, sorry. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for your patient answering as always. I appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from Milan Shah with URMIL RESEARCH CONSULTANCY . Please go ahead.
Hello.
Hi, Milan.
Hello. Can you hear me?
Yes, loud and clear.
Okay. So my very great congratulations for great set of number and happy Diwali.
Thank you. Happy Diwali to you.
Sir, my question is, company is going to develop a development center in Surat, so it is for a tactical point of view or a customer point- of- view?
There are no customers in Surat, though I'm hoping that my colleagues will actually present me with a diamond, which they have not done so far. It's more a, it's more, s ee, we have a, we have a bunch of colleagues, who are based in Bombay, who are from Surat. During COVID time, they wanted to go back to Surat, and therefore, we used that opportunity to basically give them the freedom to develop, to develop a center in Surat. We could get some really good people. So it's, yeah, so the word you use is tactical. Yeah, you could call it tactical, but it's long-term tactical. It's not a short-term opportunistic thing. We now have, so let's, let's, take you through the plans in Surat. How, how many people do we have and what brings them?
See, I mean, currently in Surat, we have around 35+ people.
Can you hear me?
Yeah. Sorry. All of them are actually, they're not developers. They are actually developing the product. There are two of the products which actually get developed there. One is the CARBON and the GST product. I mean, that actually, like, certified, they are very well engaged with the newer technologies and the newer things which actually is happening there. Also, like, we have found that there are a lot of colleges in and around Surat, where we can get very good talent, which is actually, like, unpacked. So we are actually tapping into that area and actually, like, now getting the cream from those colleges and actually, like, now developing the people. We should actually hit around, like, you know, 50 people by end of this year, actually, like, so that centers have-
Much larger set of people, and the center will take a lot of responsibilities on developing and creating the product lines and the functionalities over there.
So, sir, I am attending many phone calls, but Swaminathan, sir, and your team's explanation for companies and products is very detailed and satisfactory. My question is, what is the percentage of the exports or domestic business ratio, sir?
Sir, 70%-30%. 70% export, 30% domestic.
Okay. Sir, can you plan any fundraising for VIP or rights issues and planning to need, because you are talking about shortfall of money for marketing guys. Our company is doing excellent because of your credentials, and we are thinking that you make a good platform for us.
Sir, paisa dilaiye na, you will take the money. The point is we are, we are in the market for money, but at the same time, radhi ke hisab se nahin dekhenge hum log. We need a fair valuation of the company in the marketplace. Radhi ke hisab se dekha toh bahut log lene wale hai, phul lene wale hai.
No, no, no.
But we are very confident of the growth of the company. We are very confident as to where we are headed. So we are trying. In terms of rights issue, today, for example, the promoters don't have the money to subscribe to rights. I mean, I'm not taking salary for so long. I'm telling you, my salaries are all cleared, but the salary with [audio distortion] is not so big that I can even subscribe to rights. So we don't have the money for subscribing to rights, so rights is ruled out. So it has to be something where we can do some kind of a private placement, preferential placement, kuch karna padega. We are-
Sir, you are talking to people, right? And your, your people are very competent. So you, when, when venture capitalists are investing so much money in neglected companies and write off, when your company is doing excellent in all the front, so you may be more money than your valuation. I think-
Sir, problem, problem kya hai? Hum log market mein operate nahi karte hai na hum log. Hum log sikasa laghu hai, sir. Sikasa laghu ko paisa nahi milta turant.
Nahi, nahi, nahi. Woh toh, nahi, aapko milega, bahut paisa milega, kyunki aapka jo is sabse presentation hai, main kitne saalon se aapko phone call sun raha hoon ki Swaminathan sir ka jo explanation annual report mein hota hai, woh sab jo hota hai, woh I didn't see in any other companies.
Sure. Sir, you know, people come to us and basically say, "Why don't you trade in the market?" We don't trade in the market. We're not going to be trading in the market. Hum log operate nahi karte stock ko. So some of these things don't go down well with investors, sir. Kuch log mante hai achcha hai, kuch log mante hai achcha nahi hai. Kya karein, bataiye sir?
That credential make in future like Infosys. Infosys, they are a small company in past, but in 25 years it is going to be big. So I, I wish our company are going also be big same thing.
Sir, aapka diabetes nahi hai na?
Huh?
Aapka diabetes nahi hai na, aapka?
Nahí, nahí, nahí, nahí.
Aapki muh mein visha, aapki muh mein visha hai.
Sir, because I am living in Surat, so I particularly ask for Surat center development.
Sir, aap ek baar Surat mein log office jaake dekhe aaiye, sir.
Sure, sure, sir. Can our office address?
Main bhej deta hun. Main bhej deta hun aapko.
Okay. Thank you, thank you, sir.
Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Rocco, over to you.
Yes, sir. That concludes our question- and- answer session. I'd like to turn it back over to the management team for closing remarks.
Thank you very much. And, I think Ankit is back with a question. Ankit Minocha.
Thank you, sir. This concludes the question- and- answer session, and-
One second, Rocco. Rocco, we have a guy called Ankit Minocha, wants to ask a question.
Oh, I see that. I will join them up now. Apologies. Please proceed with your question, Ankit.
Yep, yep, thanks, thanks for the follow-up. My question was related to the Disclosure Management tools that you're working on. Any indications on what's the kind of sales potential that you're looking at? And what kind of business potential you're looking at in this?
Ankit, I couldn't hear the question at all. There's a lot of static on the, on the call, and there was also some kind of, it's almost like you are in a wind tunnel. So can you just repeat it, please?
Sorry, yeah. Is this better?
Hugely! Like, 5,000% better than the previous one.
About the Disclosure Management software. I mean, how far along are we in terms of business for that, and in terms of are we just starting? And where do you see this like is this like a very small percentage of our business say in the next two or three years? Or do you see this significantly significantly scaling up?
I think you hit the nail on the head. Disclosure Management is going to be the mainstay of our business going forward. This is where our biggest growth is going to come from. Ultimately, companies want to benefit from digital reporting. Companies want to find an integrated filing platform. Companies want to go digital. Regulators want to go digital. And what we will be able to do by combining, Collect, and Create, will actually come home to roost in a, in a very positive sense going forward with the DM solutions we actually have. And as you rightly said, I mean, now that we have about, we have about 6,000+ customers, of whom at least 5,000 could be potential customers, and then we have partners that we now have, who have 2,000 customers in the bank.
You know, we're now being approached by partners who are saying: Can you do exclusively with us of Disclosure Management? And we said, "No." There are partners who come and say, "Will you do a white label agreement with for Disclosure Management?" We said, "No". It's initially the fact that we have about 5,000-6,000 people beginning to use it. I think it's the biggest sign for us; it's a hugely encouraging sign. So actually, which is why if you notice one thing, the DM product is also called IRIS CARBON, because it actually sits on the Disclosure platform that we have for XBRL reporting. So we are starting with a nice customer base. It's a question of how many more modules we can sell them, how many more things we can sell them on top of that.
So very, very optimistic. But that strategy really works well, because since customers have experienced it, they will be able to appreciate the ease of using the solution for all the other reporting requirements. And that's the foundation of our strategy for growing the DM market.
Right. Right. Thank you. And, if I, if I look at the Disclosure Management, that's the SaaS piece of it. There's obviously the other part, Create also, which is a SaaS piece of it. What percentage of your revenue would you say come from SaaS?
What's the number, Balu? So somebody is furiously punching on the calculator to get the number out.
I think, yeah, I think it'll be about 55%-60%.
Okay. You heard that, 55%-60%.
55%-60% is SaaS revenue, is it? Of the total, of the total revenue?
Correct.
Okay.
The repeat revenues are much higher, but this is pure software as service revenues. Thank you, Ankit.
Okay, thank you. Thanks.
Rocco, see you way.
Yes, sir. This concludes the question- and- answer session, so I'd like to turn it back over to you for closing remarks.
Well, I didn't have very much to say. I want to thank everybody who actually joined the call. Thank you very, very much. I think we had a record turnout, huge. I, as I started by saying that when you see such a huge turn, it actually scares you. We, I think we're on a good wicket. I think we have the foundation that's been laid. The challenge is to build on it, get the right people in. We will come back to you with the ESOP proposals very soon, and that will again catapult the company into the next orbit, because we will attract much, much more experienced talent than we have now. Much of the senior talent that we have here in the company have grown with the company.
Sometimes it's important to get people from outside the different perspective, and we are in the process of doing that. I will continue to count on your support at all times, and we will continue to be transparent to the fullest extent. Please note I did not say to the fullest extent possible, to the fullest extent, and let the word go out that we are a transparent company. We are a well-governed company, where the directors of the company stand up and do what is right for the shareholders and do their job. So three cheers to our Independent Directors for what they did yesterday by asking us to defer it, which we did, and that's the kind of company we want to be part of.
Because ultimately, you know, all of us also are, while we may be managers, we're also shareholders, and we want to ensure that value accrues to all of us as well, just as it accrues to you. On that note, thank you very much for joining, and until we have the next call, that's going to happen in six months' time. Thank you very much. Bye-bye now.
Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. On behalf of IRIS Business Services Limited, we thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your line.