Earnings Call: Q4 2019

Feb 26, 2020

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Aesthetic Fourth Quarter twenty nineteen Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question and answer session. I would like to advise you that your conference is being recorded today on Wednesday, 02/26/2020. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Peter Madsen. Please go ahead, sir. Thank you, Annette, and good morning, everybody. We're coming to you from Denmark, Volvo today, where we where our Board met last night, and they preapproved three reports that we released this morning: the quarterly report, the presentation that we're going to give you now and then the annual report that they submitted to our Annual General Meeting, which is going to be on April 22 this year. And so with that, we are ready to go through the ACeTEC Q4 twenty nineteen results. Again, my name is Peter Madsen. I'm the CFO. I have here with me Andrej Slot Eriksen, our Founder and CEO. Good morning, Andrej. Good morning. The way we're going to run this today is that we will go through the presentation. And then as the operator, Annette, said, we're going to have a Q and A session where you can either post your questions, via the web app that you are probably in front of. There should be a place somewhere to submit questions, and we will answer them at the end of the presentation. Or you can stand by and present your questions verbally via the operating system. With that, Andre, over to you for the I will dive right in. And we reported a Q4 revenue 2019 of $15,700,000 compared with $60.5 in the same quarter last year well, the year before nowadays, so it's 2018 gross margins of 43% compared to 42% Q4 EBITDA adjusted of 2.6%, pretty much more or less the same as Q4 twenty eighteen. Revenues of 54.3% and an EBITDA adjusted of 6.2% for the year compared to 67.39.4% in 2018. Our cash increased just shy of $6,000,000 And as most of you know, we released that we're going to supply our liquid coolant to a global server OEM. The segmentation of the business is more or less the same as it's been for a while now that our G and E market accounts for 95% of the revenue with an EBITDA margin just shy of 30 and the data center is the rest. We still believe that the data center will be a long term and hopefully an exponential growing market one day, but I will get back to that. If you look at Slide four, the bars are, of course, reflecting the numbers I just gave you, but what they're also reflecting is the high market volatility that's just associated with this business. And as such, we have decided to actually cease our guidance for quarterly levels because we cannot predict how the quarters are going to look. So going forward, we will be guiding on the full year only. Of course, we will report on the quarters, but the quarterly guidance is not really helping anymore. So diving into the gaming and enthusiasts segment, I think it's not a surprise to anyone that there's macro and industry headwinds coming our way, well, coming everyone's way, I guess. We have the trade issues that are not resolved. We have the Brexit uncertainty and obviously the potential effect of the coronavirus. As you know, we or some of you know, we came out with the stock exchange release recently saying that the coronavirus has not affected us and that our exposure is more or less the same as the rest of the industry. That still stands. It's not like there's been any positive or negative development in the meantime. So up until now, we have been relatively unaffected. But what's going to happen in the future is obviously impossible to tell. And obviously, these things are influencing our markets and our end users. On top of that, and as I alluded to in the last presentation, one of our large OEMs has significantly reduced the purchase. And at the beginning of the year last year, we thought it was more or less the same as everybody else because of the trade wars, but they were sticking out. And, we have now also realized that they have actually started to buy from one of our competitors. So obviously, that's affecting us also. At that topic, if we look at, our top five customer revenue split, the top five normally counted for more than 85%. And right now, we're down to 81%. And of course, that's something we're looking to well, basically making a healthier business. So we like the number going down. Of course, we don't like the number going down if it's, only because a customer is is going away. But but I think in this case, the the picture is more nuanced. Obviously, we are monitoring the situation and assessing the IP situation at all times. One change that we've talked about before also, but we are going to see an even stronger impact from in 2020 and going forward, is that we are developing our business model a little bit. And it's actually pretty simple. If we take an example with a retail packing, when a customer buys a product from AcerTech today, we are developing everything, including, for example, the retail packing. Believe it or not, the retail packing is an expensive component. And with our gross margins, it's obviously difficult to tell a customer that they have to pay a 40% mark on a packaging. So we have decided to well, if customers want to keep, let's say, overpriced retail packaging from Aesthetic, of course, they can. But for larger customers, they are buying in bulk. And the same goes with a lot of the, let's say, commodity features such as LED lights, etcetera. It's not a place for ACTEC to make a lot of money. It consumes a lot of resources. So we are cutting those features away. We leave it to our customers to develop their own industrial design. We focus on what we are good at. That's liquid cooling. And of course, it will have an impact on our ASP. Our ASP will go down. But on the flip side, our margins will go up because now we can charge the margins that we deserve and that we have earned on what we are good at liquid cooling. And then it's up to our customers to, let's say, to develop the commodity parts. There's a of good things about it because it also makes our customers capable of, let's say, differentiating themselves from their competitors. There is also a risk to it that I want to highlight that's not listed here. And the risk, of course, is the execution on the customer side. Hypothetically, we could be in a situation where we've developed everything, but the customer is not ready. And then we're kind of hanging there. It's not something I fear because if I fear that we would not have done it, because I just want to mention that, of course, there is a risk. In terms of the branding or the co or dual branding strategy, nothing has changed. We are obviously still looking at that and getting our brand forward. So those two things are absolutely unrelated. And just to expand a little bit on that, historically, we were completely OEM. We developed the product as our customers wanted it, and they got it in their box with their branding. What we're doing now is, more or less the same. However, what we're also doing is we are focusing on getting our brand adopted and getting our brand in front of the end customer as well. And, if we move forward, the goal, of course, is to dominate the gaming and enthusiast liquid cooling market. I think that's needless to say. And the way we do that, we believe, the best is to focus on, as I said before, what we are good at, that liquid cooling performance, reliability, not to mention quality. Quality is a big one. As it is right now, we have co branding agreements in place with seven of our big customers, meaning that we are getting in front of the end user. We are connecting directly with gamers and enthusiasts via our Cool Nation forum. And the whole idea, of course, is to monetize the Aesthetic brands. We have currently more than 25 OEM customers, and we are reducing single customer dependency. We started in 2019 developing, let's say, more specialized and high end products, and we expect to release them here in 2020, which will confirm our position in the market that AsiaTech is the standard in liquid cooling. Just a couple of examples from the branding or dual branding. When AMD launched the Ryzen 3950X processor, they actually made a statement that their goal was to push the performance to the limit, and liquid cooling was the enabler for that. And as you can see, there is a statement about Aesthetic and our cooling solutions. And as you can see, there is an Aesthetic logo just next to the AMD Ryzen logo. On the next slide, a little bit on the branding. What you see on the picture is the ASUS Strix LT240 RGB cooler, where you can also see the Aesthetic logo on the front of the box. And we have more or less similar agreements with ASUS. This is an ASUS product EVGA, NZXT, Dell Alienware, Gigabyte, Adata, and SADAC. And as you also saw before, we have done promotions with AMD on the Ryzen launch. So we believe that these co branding programs are working very well. They are well received both by the OEMs and the public. And the public in this context is both the press and our end users. Swarping a little bit to the data center business. The global sustainability agenda, obviously, is a driver for us. And then none of us can open a news or a paper or a media without somebody talking about carbon emission reduction, etcetera. So of course, as we have kind of counted on, it's blowing in our direction. That doesn't change the fact that the market adoption is still slow. And I still believe we need public requirements and standards to trigger this to really get the exponential effect. One big step on that route, of course, is the design win that we just announced with the global OEM. I cannot say much more than you already know at this point in time, but I can say why, and it's, it's pretty simple. There's no OEM out there that would like to have their own product plans preannounced. So that's why we cannot mention the name. The name will be public. And what we think we know is what we have given you already. And that's a forecast that indicates a revenue potential of 4,000,000 to $5,000,000 over the course of the over the course of the assumed product life. And the reason why I say assumed product life is that it's not really in our destiny to say when one of our customers' products has end of life. It could very well be that they will last longer. It could also be last shorter. I don't believe that to be the case. So, but this is, what we know. We expect the products to be released before the year end 2020. And then, of course, we will all know more about it. And, that being said, I'll I'll give the word back to Peter to talk a little bit about the financials, and then I'll be back shortly. Sure. Thank you. I'll start out by commenting on quarterly income statement, and then I'll go to the annual statement and then work my way through in that way. Starting on the top line, revenues in this quarter were pretty flat compared to the 2018, 5% down. Most of that decline comes from the data center, where we have pretty much in Q4 halved the shipments of the comparable quarter last year. It's not unusual, though, to see fluctuations in revenue, especially on the data center side and actually also on the gaming enthusiast side, as Andre said before. Gross margins, I'll come back to those in a minute. Going further down, looking at the operating expenses, they're pretty flat also. Look here, by the way, how you can see that we have transitioned, shifted our resource consumption from data center towards payment enthusiasts. If you're looking at data center spend last year, was $1,900,000 Now it's now down to $950,000 And then the other way around, the gaming enthusiast spend is up from $1,200,000 to 2,000,000 So it's the transition we've been talking about for pretty much a year now. We've been helped a little bit, though, I have to admit, by the dollar Danish kroner exchange rate. The Danish kroner has been 6% on average cheaper than last year. And since around twothree of our expenses are expensed in Danish kroner, of course, that does have an impact. But all in all, a flat development in operating expenses. That then takes us down to the bottom line, where we have $1000000.1200000.0 dollars of EBIT earnings before interest and taxes versus the same amount last year. So all in all, I have to say it's quite an uneventful quarter, which is not a bad thing to us at all. Looking at the year as such, starting again on the top line here, you can see the decline in revenue. We had I think it was 19% decline in revenue as announced from 2018 through 2019. That's $13,000,000 And then on the other hand, our gross margins were up a little bit. We were on an average gross margin last year of 42% versus 39% the year before. And that means that the shortage in revenue, which was $13,000,000 turns into a shortage of gross profits of $3,000,000 Overhead expenses, same picture as before, meaning that it's flat and that has shifted towards gaming enthusiasts. And then taking that all the way down to the bottom line, the $3,000,000 that we were missing in gross profits is also pretty much missing on the bottom line, meaning that we have a bottom line earnings before interest and taxes, dollars 19,100,000.0 versus $4,400,000 the year before. Just a few words on the gross margins. 90% of our revenue comes from the gaming enthusiasts, and that means that, of course, that is the segment that gives us the most impact on gross margins. That's the blue very flat line on the top. You can see there it's quite flat. For the year and last year, the group total was 42.9% versus 42.1%, so really, really flat. And I believe for the last five quarters, we've been above 41% in gross margins, quite nicely. We had an increase in the margin levels around 2018, so just prior to what you can see in the diagram here. But since that increase to above 40%, we've been quite flat. Gross margins from data centers increasing significantly, but it's still too early to announce the victory here. It's still very fluctuating quite a lot up and down. Shifting to an annual cash generation overview, and I know this is a little bit of a complex diagram here. But if we start looking at from the left, then you have three years' worth of cash contribution, where you see the black bars is the cash holdings at the end of the year, starting back in what does it say here, year end 2016 and then going through 2017, 2018 and 2019. And then you can see how we have a contribution of in, for example, 2017, dollars 16,000,000 coming from gaming enthusiasts. We then spent $7,000,000 in as a contribution to the data center market. And then we have the other components also impacting cash flow like investments and working capital. And if we then just focus over on the right hand side, where it's 2019, you'll see that there is indeed a contraction of the business here, which, of course, comes from the lower revenue in Gaming and Thusiasts. Primarily, we had $14,600,000 of contribution coming from Gaming and Thusiasts. We then spent 4.2 on the data center business. And look how that number is significantly lower than the years before. Both in 'seventeen and 'eighteen, we spent $7.2 ish million, dollars 7,300,000.0 on the data center business. And this year in 'nineteen, we're down to $4,200,000 Also of interest here is that the investments CapEx is down from both in 2017 and 2018, a level of around $4,000,000 It's down to $2,000,000 And finally, and least of interest here is the working capital, where we have a positive working capital impact in 2019, which is up $2,000,000 versus a negative in 2018 of $5,000,000 and that comes from lower inventories, lower accounts receivables and higher accounts payables. Our cash conversion cycle, which is the number of days from when we initially pay out to buy components until the day when we receive this final money from our customers, is down to eleven days where it was forty one days in the year before. And that leads to a balance sheet. This is probably this has to take the price for the most foreign slide. We've seen that quite a lot. It's a very solid balance sheet, a lot of cash on the books. We are definitely ready to see what else to take on whatever the future will throw at us. Financial priorities, you've seen those also. We have from my chair, from the CFO chair, we have, of course, a target, a goal of continuing to grow profitable and create a solid financial platform. And we have certain tools to obtain those goals, And there are no differences in those tools compared to earlier, but of course, they differ from segment to segment. There are different tools from Gaming Authusi as to what we do over in the data center business. Of course, my chair is my work is also focused on cost optimization, overhead optimization. We certainly make sure and work diligently to make sure that we get the best out of the resources. And then finally, it's about cash flow improvement. And as you saw on the slide before, we have been working on cash conversion throughout 2019, and we are in a good solid position on that. So with that, Andre, going back to the summary and outlook. Yes. So as mentioned, we are looking at a small change in our business model to support our customers' own customization. And we are focusing on delivering core technology, which is liquid cool. And of course, as I said, that business model will have a change in revenue. On the flip side, it will give us better margins. On the bottom line, I'm not sure there's a big difference. But with what's going on, around the world also, we expect to see a 5% to 10% revenue decline, this year, still with a net positive result for the year. So I'm not sure that there's a lot other to deduct from this that as we look at it, the year could very well be pretty flat. In terms of the coronavirus, of course, I cannot predict the future. So it's impossible to say what's going to happen. Right now, it's not have the big effect on us, but whether it will have going forward is impossible to say. I also think it's very small things we can do to mitigate it. It's just the state of the world right now. In terms of the OEM design win, of course, I hope that we will launch this year. I hope it will have a positive impact. But in my view, we have taken a rather conservative approach to how we see the year. And I think it's a wise thing to do, everything considered. I think that's pretty much, what I have to say. I know Peter has a small update here. Do you want to say that? Yeah. That's fine. I just want to come back to the quarterly income statement. I forgot to talk about a topic here. And Andre, he said that we have stopped. We've ceased guiding on revenues on the segments. Used to guide pretty much quarter by quarter and very detailed. We've stopped that. We will also stop reporting on details of the two former segments. We have simply spent too much of your time and our time talking about a segment that has been quite small. And by doing that, we have also revealed, we feel, too much information to competitors and customers and vendors, etcetera. So we will still talk about revenue historically in two segments, but we will scale down significantly on the detail levels on the overhead and the margins, etcetera. So that was just a side remark on on how we're gonna report going forward. We'll we'll show you the details here in q one. Yes. And and, obviously, we are still going to report orders, etcetera. So it's not a big change. With that, would like to call on our operator, Annette, to host, the Q and A session. We also have some questions on the web here that we can do after the verbal Q and A. So Annette, please take it away. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin our question and answer session. Once again, please press star one if you wish to ask a question. There are no audio questions at the moment. Please continue. Okay. Thank you. We received a number of questions online, and we'll simply start from the top Question from Germany, how much will the one large OEM reduce his orders? Is there a risk that we'll lose him totally? Or are there follow on orders of other products from the data center? I think that's two questions here. Yeah. I'm not really interested, to be honest, in discussing our customer orders out in the public here like that. But what I can say is that I don't expect any meaningful revenue from this customer this year. And then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that expecting a pretty flat year, it actually means that we've been able to replace quite a substantial amount of revenue, which is really good. In terms of follow on orders, I'm not really sure what the question means because it's we have gotten an OEM design win, and of course, there will be plenty of orders. So I'm not sure. It's not a single order, so I'm not sure what that means. It's the relationship that is developing. Well, we don't know at this point. Very good. Then we go to France, I believe. In the five the minus five to 10% guidance, can you give us details on the underlying ASPs and volume components for the D and E division? No, I cannot. Because we have 25 different OEMs who probably have three to four products each, meaning we have more than 100 different products. So the ASP is simply all of them stacked on top of each other divided by the number of products. So that's not really anything I can say. But what I can say that could perhaps be helpful is that, for some products in the really high end, of course, the ASP will be a substantial reduction because the bling and the features and the LED will be a substantial part of the bill of material, whereas as if you move to the lower end of the product stack with not so many features, then the ASP will not go down so much. So it's, yeah, it's more or less impossible to say. There are many components and complex that game here. Then we go back to Germany. How long time will the transition of the business model in the gaming enthusiasts take? Will it be finalized here in 2020? How pronounced will the margin effect of the change model be? So it's not necessarily smaller customers who will transition to the business model. So it's not like there is a start and an end phase, just like there are shipping programs that we are not changing. So it's a mix, I will say. I actually expect the margin effect to be substantial. When and what is substantial? That's points we are measuring in here for sure. It's not behind comma. The thing, of course, is what's going to happen with exchange rates, etcetera, going forward is impossible to predict. So that's why we're also a little bit conservative. But if we exclude factors like exchange rates and what's going on around in the world, then I would say between three and five points on the margin. So it's substantial for sure. Indeed. Then we are in Copenhagen. On the question on the OEM reducing the purchases, have you removed this customer from the guidance? We have obviously taken into account what's going on in our guidance. And then there's a question here from UK, I believe. What is the potential for a meaningful replacement cycle from a gaming from gaming enthusiasts this year? Yes. That's impossible to answer. I don't know. I think the the the potential for replacement is is going on constantly. People are building PCs every day, and every time they build a PC, they're buying a a cooler and a CPU and a motherboard, but I don't know how to quantify it. Very good. And there is a long question here that actually seems to start out by a statement. Bear with me. I'm reading. My conversation with data center operators and OEMs again and again point to some key barriers of adoption of liquid cooling around perceived risks to hardware, maintenance complexity and risk of unplanned downtime. Since ACTEC seems to be proving that these misconceptions, have you considered providing risk sharing or insurance protection for the first time customers to lower the adoption barriers, especially given your strong balance sheet, which could be could give credibility to those guarantees? Well, first of all, it's not reflecting what I see from either OEMs or data center operators at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think it's related to finances or risk or hardware or anything like that. What we see out there is the data center operators. They do not see the value. To them, they can save power, and they can save much more power than it costs to implement liquid cooling. So the math stacks up. What I see is that, for example, hyperscale data centers, they want to build the same hardware around the world. They want to build the same data centers around the world. They don't want a liquid cool data center in Denmark and then something else in Finland and then something else in Nevada or California. And, you know, what's going on in the hyperscale space right now is that people are competing really hard. So time to market, meaning how fast can you build a data center, etcetera, is really what's driving it. So in my opinion, I don't think financial incentives will make any difference at all. I think we need to focus on the environmental angle of it as we are doing. And I think we need to realize and the data center operators, they need to realize that they own a big responsibility in this in the carbon emission reductions. And I personally believe that's the way forward. I have further to that thought, I have personally been involved like a couple of years ago where we basically offered hardware for free to a data center, and they were not interested for the reasons I just mentioned. So I don't think starting to giving away money or discounts or credits or anything like that would change the picture. Very good. Then from the same gentleman, but going back to gaming enthusiasts, the desktop OEM who reduced the purchasing, did they do that change in sourcing to circumvent U. S.-China trade tariffs? And if so, would ASIC consider adapting its supply chain to mitigate the exposure? I think the OEM reduced it just because it was cheap and it wanted lower pricing. The other half of the question, we have been considering for a while supply chain mitigation. And we are doing that effectively the sense that for customers where this is a big deal, we are actually moving some of our manufacturing to Malaysia. But it's not that easy because it's very easy on paper to say now we move our manufacturing to Malaysia, so now we don't have tariffs. No, that's correct. But you have an extra layer of shipping because a lot of your sub suppliers are already in Malaysia. It will change your entire shipping schedules, etcetera. So it's not that easy, but for sure, it's something we do. Very good. Diving a little further down into the gaming segment here. Has gaming demand for liquid cooling gone structurally from high growth to low growth? Do you see a long term risk from online gaming streaming platforms like GeForce NOW, sorry for pronouncing that, is that correct, and Google Stadia? Not at all. In terms of gaming demand, I have no metrics to kind of decipher that. I think if you're following our presentation, you'll know what's going on. But in terms of streaming platforms, I don't see that as competition at all. It doesn't worry me at all. Number one, let's see if they can ever get it to work. Personally, I've never seen it work today, but that's not what we're banking on when I say as I do. People have to understand our customers are hardware enthusiasts. They build their own PC. You cannot outsource to Google or to NVIDIA to build your own PC online. Building your own PC is something that goes on in your own living room. Whether you are then a gamer or you're not a gamer, that's a different discussion. But it has zero impact on our business because people who like to buy their own PC and to build their own PC, it makes no difference what you can do online from any service. It's not even related. On the contrary, I think it's a great development for us because it means we will have a lot of high performance data centers out there, which is a big opportunity for us. So so I welcome these services. Very good. On the data center side, how do you foresee an environmental regulation on on data centers would look like? And how would this in incentivize data centers to go for liquid cooling over the alternatives like sourcing green energy and other efficiency improvements? Google, for example, achieved a PUE, that's a power usage effectiveness, as low as 1.14 on one of its data centers before it began to use liquid cooling. Well, I think this is a great question because that displays very well the misconception that's going on. PUE has nothing to do with whether liquid cooling gives you an advantage or not. Even if you have a PUE of one point zero, which would be the perfect in this world, it still means if you don't reuse the waste heat that you are wasting all of the power going into your data center. You can have a data center with a PUE of 1.5 and measure it up against Google's of 1.1. And the 1.5 will be the most energy efficient because they reuse waste heat energy, and thereby they don't need to have fossil fuels for heating. So the way I see that it would work is and that's what we're working on. I think actually was it two or three days ago, the EU came out with the new regulations for data centers, etcetera. And it's actually listed in there that they have to reuse waste heat. So it will come no matter if they like it or not. And I think that's the way forward that we have to realize that data centers in general and we all know the examples of streaming that if you're it will emit the same carbon as boiling 50 cups of coffee. So what does it help if you are not flying, if you are then on the Internet streaming movies? The way forward is not to change people's behavior. We need to keep flying. We need to keep streaming movies, of course. But we need to put in not incentives, in my view, because the incentives are already there. We have to put in regulations just like we do on the car industry. We have to put in regulation that say that, okay, if you use 100 megawatts of power, you need to be able to reuse at least 60% of that. So I think it's pretty simple. It's just not an easy ship to turn. Very good. Then a very specific question on the G and E. Do you plan positive volume growth in the G and E division in 2020? That's an excellent question. I will have to go get back to I don't remember it, to be honest, on top of my head. Very good. Shifting gear again. I noticed ESATIC is more active on social medias regarding data centers and carbon emission reduction, etcetera. Do you have a fixed strategy for influencing EU and the political environment? And have you received any political recognition on your efforts so far? Well, I think as we have reported the last many quarters that I don't know if the strategy is fixed or not, but I personally spend a lot of time with politicians. I'm actually going to see the minister on Monday in Denmark, and I'm spending a lot of time in the EU as well because I do believe it's the right and only way forward. And in terms of recognition, I mean, if we take the ultimate recognition, meaning we can measure it on our bottom line, no. But as I said, with the EU and the new green deal that's come up, I would not say I'm the guy behind it. But for sure, I would like to think so that if we have not been doing what we are, I don't think it would have been on their agenda, to be honest. On top of that, we just had here in Denmark a lot of questions asked to the booster. And that was a direct result of me going to the Danish parliament. So it is moving, and people are starting to see that this is a big deal. So I think it's just like we have to keep pushing, and we will. It's a hot topic, that's for sure. Staying in the same line of questions here. Please talk about your efforts to expand the business to help buildings reduce their CO2 emissions by using the heat generated from data centers. No need to say that this sorry, no need to say that, but many ESG funds being created, you can become a part of the ESG wave. Correct. But what we also have to realize is that Acertek is a small company. We don't have the muscle. Even if we spend all our $20,000,000 on a bank account, we don't have the muscle to do that. We have the muscle to support an OEM, and that's what we can do. We are not selling directly to data centers. We don't have the business model for it, and I don't think we will ever go in that direction. So what we can do is we can focus on the benefits. We can focus, on the politicians to take this seriously. We can build all the case stories we want. But if the data centers don't want to listen, it doesn't help. What we have done recently, and as probably a lot of you have seen, that we have started basically this year, early February, and probably as the first in the world, we have started to sell our waste heat to the district heating plants here locally, not because we are saving anything environmentally by doing that with our small data center, but just to circumvent these discussions on whether it can be done and whether it makes sense or not. We are right now twenty four hours a day selling the waste heat from our data center and thereby prove that it can be done. And if people are in doubt, they can come and check it out. Yes. And one thing is what we do towards our customers and with our products we sell. On the internal side of ESG, we have started a project to hopefully score higher in the various ESG scoring tools that are out there that we have in the past. Have not scored high. That's primarily, of course, we haven't been focusing a lot on it, but that will certainly change. Totally shifting gear here. How is the possibility for a share buyback developing? Well, I think it's the same answer as last time that assume as there is any development, we will let you know. I don't think it's the right time to go into a discussion of why. But for legal reasons and for tax reasons between The U. S. And Denmark, we are not able to do a dividend payout or share buyback. And we have people working on it, and I can guarantee you that it's not on our side. People are stalling. But when we're talking about the IRS in The U. S. And the same in Denmark, things are just moving at glacial pace, it seems. Yes. So we're waiting for those. Let me just refresh. Questions seem to have coming in, and they have stopped. There are no more questions. Thank you for all the good questions. If you have questions after this, please post them or send them as e mail at investor. Relationsaseotec dot com. Let me repeat that, Investor.relations@aceotech.com, and we will reply to to the best we can. With that, Arthur, any further comments from you? Nope. Nope. Then we will cease this presentation. Thank you for your interest in Acertek. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. That does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect. Speakers, please stand by.