Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Atos Group third quarter 2025 performance. The call will be structured in two parts. First, a presentation by the Atos Group management team, represented by Philippe Salle, Chairman and CEO, and Jacques-François de Prest, CFO. Afterwards, there will be a Q&A session. During this session, you may only ask questions by telephone by dialing pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. I will now hand over to the management team. Gentlemen, please go ahead.
Thank you, operator. Good morning, everybody. Or good afternoon for some of you in Asia. We're going to do a presentation, and then after that, of course, taking all the questions you have. I'm, of course, together with Jacques-François, the CFO of the group, and Marie, the IR of the group. Let's start with the first slide. We're going to go on one more. Okay, perfect. In Q3, first, the performance is in line, I would say, with the full-year profitability and cash trajectory. I think it's very important. I understand, in fact, that probably the team has the credit on cash and cost. Of course, we are spending now quite a lot of time, I would say, on the top line, and I will give you more info during this call. The second is on the bottom left.
The Genesis transformation plan is in motion to restore the strong financial performance. I just want to highlight that Genesis, it's a two-part project for me. The first one is the project on cost, and as you see, we are doing the job. We will probably execute Genesis on this one by mid-2026. We estimate that probably in 18 months, we will have finished probably the job, except one or two countries where, of course, it's a little bit slower because it takes more time, I would say, to the negotiations with the unions, and you can imagine what countries are there. The second part of the Genesis plan that is very important is the top line. Genesis is reducing costs, and also, I would say, it's restarting, I would say, the growth engine.
Of course, I would say the cost takes roughly, yes, these 18 months, the restart of the engine growth, it's roughly a two-year effort. We have done a lot of job, I would say, in 2025. We have reshuffled completely the organization, changed a lot of people in the growth engine. The idea, of course, is to start to produce results in 2026, and of course, accelerating after that the top line in 2027 and 2028 according to our plan. Last, management team, as you have seen, the top 20 is complete. The top 200 is almost complete. It will be probably by the end of the year. I would say that the first circle and the second one will be, I would say, in force to execute, of course, Edge Genesis in 2026 and going forward. If we go to the next slide, some key numbers.
The order entry, EUR 1.3 billion, 66%. In fact, it's more 70+% on Atos brand. It's lower in Eviden and mainly on HPC. Just as a comment, two things. The first one is that the book to build in Q3 is always low. It's roughly 70%- 80% when you look, for example, at our numbers for the last years. Secondly, it's very important that you understand that discipline is important, discipline in cost, discipline also in the portfolio in the top line. For example, I have decided not to renew some contracts. By doing that, we have lowered the book to bill. I can give you just one example. There was a big contract in the U.S. If I could have resigned this, it's a book to bill roughly EUR 300+ million , so it's roughly a 20% rate.
I would have increased the book to bill by 20 points, but the margin was too low, and we decided to stop the negotiation. It's very important to understand, of course, that the discipline on the portfolio lowers the book to bill in the short term, and of course, lowers the revenues as we try to stop as many as possible contracts where we think it's impossible to renegotiate the price with the customers. Revenue, it's EUR 2 billion. It's roughly - 10% versus last year. You have seen that in Eviden, we are in a growing pattern, and in fact, we are decreasing with Atos. Also, this one, I can give you one number on the discipline. 80% of the decrease in Atos, so eight zero , comes from the contract stop.
We are managing the top line, and that's why it doesn't hurt the profitability because we are stopping contracts with roughly 0% margin. Important to know that roughly 5% of our turnover is what we call black contracts, so contracts with roughly zero profitability. Roughly 15% is red contracts. It's a contract between 5% and 15%. Roughly 20%, EUR 1.5+ billion , are contracts where right now, we have strong actions either to renegotiate, to change the delivery to beef up the margin, or stop the revenues. Net Genesis cash is roughly EUR -38 million. In fact, we are not stopping Genesis. It's not because we are trying to slow down the Genesis. It's just because we are also doing a lot of actions to decrease, for example, the accounts receivable, so to decrease the DSO. The teams are in place to make sure that we are paid faster.
It's very important. It's, of course, on a recurring basis again. The liquidity, we still have EUR 1.8 billion in cash. I would say we are quite confident, of course, that everything is okay in terms of liquidity for the plan. Of course, to pay the Genesis ramped on in terms of cost. Next slide, please. Commercial strategy. As I say, the flip side of the decrease of cost is the increase of the top line. We are still aiming to have a zero plus growth in the course of next year. I would say probably in Q3 this year, we are at the bottom for Atos in terms of revenues, we will see. We have done a lot of things. First, the commercial pipeline is gaining momentum. In fact, we have targeted the 100 accounts, the top 100 accounts of Atos. Just for information, it's roughly two-thirds of the revenues.
For each CEP, so Client Executive Partner of this account, they have now a plan, a three-year plan where they look at the opportunities in their own accounts and opportunities. Remember that during the Capital Market Day, we say we have roughly 1.6 business lines per account. The idea, of course, is to go at two, three for some of the accounts. There were a lot of opportunities that have emerged from this work, and it has been done during the summer. Cross-sell, as I say again, increasing for a given customer the different capabilities of the group. A good traction also in cloud and cyber. We are in the book to bid, in fact, above 100. We see that there is more and more interest, especially also in Europe, of course, with the private cloud. Of course, the sovereignty subject. You have below some contracts renewal and win.
I'm not going to go in details on this one. Next slide. The execution of Genesis. In terms of people, we do also the AI transformation. Of course, it's going to touch the delivery. It's going to touch the service offerings that we're going to propose to our clients. It's going to also touch the back office of Atos. You can see that we have also trained a lot of our project managers and also of our engineers in the data and AI space. Portfolio review is the number of countries. We close six additional countries. When we say we close, there is no more commercial activity. Sometimes we still have a company there. Let's say a juridical structure that we will close, of course. It takes sometimes more time, I would say, than closing the business.
As I say, in the portfolio, we are resetting, I would say, the base of the portfolio. When I say resetting, it's really to shave the low profitability contracts. Remember, 20% of my portfolio is not at the right profitability. If you see, for example, the signed contracts that we have for the first nine months of Atos, the margin is roughly four points above, I would say, the margin that I have on my P&L. It means that the discipline is working. For sure, I would say we are probably more selective in terms of, I would say, a business increase. Delivery and G&A, I would say this one is really going very well. The billability is stable, but I would say during Q3, it's normal because with the holidays, there is an effect, of course, on this ratio. You will see probably an increase, in fact, in Q4.
We continue, I would say, to increase this ratio and heading, I would say, to the 85 in the course of 2026. In terms of restructuring, as you have seen, we have a reduction of, again, 2,600 people. We are now 67 in the company. We spend roughly EUR 90 million, a nine zero, of restructuring in terms of cash. We launched also a social plan in France in September to continue. We are, I would say, when I look at the direct people, we have probably done roughly three-quarters of the job by the end of 2025. In terms of indirect, we will have completed the job, in fact, by the end of 2025. We are almost complete. As I say, we will finish the job on direct people in the course of 2026. Most of it will be done in H1. Next slide. This is the workforce.
As I say, we are now 67 in the company. It will continue to slide. Remember that with the HPC, roughly 2,500 people will leave. With the countries' exit, it's probably several thousand also that will be taken off by the end of the year. We still have some countries we are going to close, in fact, in Q4 that will have a big impact. The ones that we have closed, in fact, in Q3 are very small in terms of number of people. Next slide, please. If I go on the revenue performance, I would say, Geo by Geo. Let's go first on Atos. This is, I would say, the bridge between Q3, pro forma Q3 without the scope.
Remember that we have sold the world grade last year, that we have also a foreign exchange in hitting, I would say, the top line, mainly, in fact, in the U.K. and the U.S., but also, for example, in Brazil. On average, I would say the pro forma is EUR 2.2 billion. As I say, organic decrease was roughly minus EUR 200 million. In fact, 80% of this, and in fact, it's more than EUR 233 million because it's mainly on Atos, 80%. It's more roughly close to EUR 300 million. EUR 250 million- EUR 300 million comes from a contract that we have decided not to renew. Revenues is roughly EUR 2 billion this quarter. As I say, we maneuver in the EUR 2 billion area, I would say, per quarter, plus or minus, of course, it depends on the quarter.
That's why we have guided that we should, I would say, do a EUR 2+ billion again in Q4 to be roughly at EUR 8+ billion at the end of the year. Next slide. This is, I would say, the split between Atos and Eviden. Next slide, we go, I would say, Geo by Geo. You have, I would say, more color, I would say, by Geo. In Germany, I would say contract dropdown is very important. There are contracts that we have decided to stop with a very low margin. Just for information, the OEM, in fact, in Germany will be positive for the first time in many years this year. In fact, for also the Geo, we call this Geo GACE, G-A-C-E, which is Germany, Austria, and Central Europe. Next year, we will probably triple the, I would say, the profitability.
We have, I would say, we will see a lot of impacts of what we are doing in the course of 2025. Next to Geo, we have now North America, bigger decrease also with contracts exist. Again, I would say for some of, I would say probably U.S. have been hit, I would say, hardly on the financial restructuring in 2024. That's probably the Geo that has suffered the most, I would say, from the situation in 2024. I would say we have quite a good traction right now and probably restarting, I would say, to grow in the course of 2026. Next to Geo, France also has suffered, I would say, from the situation in 2024. We have also reduced the scope, I would say, in some low margin contracts.
Remember also that in France, with the financial, let's say, instability coming from the country this time, not from Atos, the social, the public sector, in fact, the public and defense, it's a big sector for us, and it's 30+% , has suffered, in fact, with no budget in the beginning of 2025. In fact, it has, I would say, delayed some contracts that we had. Next to Geo, U.K. and Ireland is like the U.S. also. First, it has suffered from, I would say, the financial situation in 2024. BPO contracts were there, so we stopped a lot of BPO contracts. There is one, in fact, the digital workplace of people, I would say, that was a big one, losing money. As I say, we have roughly two contracts in BPO going forward with a given size.
It's roughly EUR 30+ million for each contract, still losing money, in fact, in 2025. We are, I would say, trying to be roughly cash neutral by 2027. One of them will be probably stopped by that time. Next to Geo, international markets. You have first a comparable with the Olympics. Of course, because, in fact, the major event is in this Geo, and it's also in Spain, and Spain is part of international markets. We have also some contracts undone, in fact, in APAC and Switzerland. Now, for Benelux, that's the one that is probably, let's say, resisting the most. We still have, I would say, some contracts undone, but we have good traction right now in the pipe, and we have quite, I would say, good opportunities right now with Europe, with the European Commission, in fact. Okay. We have probably Eviden.
As I say, Eviden, this quarter, in fact, we have the Jupiter. Remember also that without Jupiter, in fact, we had a lot of also revenues that have been pushed to Q4. In fact, Jupiter was good news, but we had also some other news that, in fact, is a mixed quarter for Eviden. We still have, I would say, we still expect a strong quarter, in fact, in Q4. I think that's it for the, I would say, the revenues per Geo. If we go to the next slide, I will give the floor to Jacques-François on the liquidity position.
Thank you very much, Philippe. Hi, everybody. As a reminder, the publication of our quarterly liquidity position is part of the regular reporting requirements, which were defined and agreed with the group's financial creditors. The certificates have been posted yesterday night on our website. Our liquidity position remains strong at the end of September, thanks to limited estimated cash consumption over the summer. In Q3, the net change in cash is estimated at approximately EUR -38 million, which includes the EUR -87 million related to restructuring over the quarter. This figure is reported, of course, unlike previous quarters, without any use of accounts receivable factoring or specific optimization on trade payables. That number also reflects the results before the estimated impact of exchange rate fluctuations, which amount to approximately EUR +11 million over the quarter.
As a result, as of September 30, Atos Group's liquidity is estimated at EUR 1,769,000,000 compared to EUR 1.804 million at the end of June 2025. This is more than EUR 1.1 billion above the minimum requirement of EUR 600 million, which is set in our credit documentation. All right, thank you. With that, I will now hand back the mic to Philippe for the outlook.
Thank you. If we go on the next slide, 2025, we have, let's say, put a guidance at EUR 8+ billion . Remember that versus the guidance that we had in May, EUR 8.5 billion, we have roughly EUR 200 million coming from FX. In fact, the EUR 8.5 billion was more EUR 8.3 billion. We will finish between probably EUR 8 billion and EUR 8.1 billion. Most of the EUR 200 million that you will see is coming from low margin contracts, and that's why I would say it doesn't harm the profitability for this year. As you then imagine, we continue to guide at the EUR 340 million in EBIT, which means that margin will be above 4%, 4.1% or 4.2%. The net change in cash will be better than EUR 350 million. We don't try to push back Genesis transformation plan to 2026.
We are in the mindset of doing the most that we can do in the course of 2025. It's possible that we will end probably between EUR 300 million and EUR 350 million because we have also a lot of exits coming in Q4. In 2026, we have started to review the budget already. When I look at the bottom up coming from the different Geos, we are still looking on an organic growth. We will guide, of course, what kind of organic growth in March next year, so please be patient. There is some confidence from the teams. It's not only coming from Jacques-François de Prest and myself. We still continue to guide that, in fact, with the organic growth, a much better EBIT because we're going to have the results of the Genesis transformation plan 2025 in the EBIT of 2026.
We will have a positive, so zero plus, change in cash. This is before debt repayment if we refinance the debt in the course of 2026, and of course, any M&A impact. M&A, I said yesterday that if we restart, it will be probably after the summer, so starting in September 2026. The goal for us is to restart M&A if there are interesting targets for us. We continue to be confident in the 2028 figures, guidelines also that we have given in May during the CMD, still looking at EUR 8.5 billion- EUR 9 billion. It means that we will accelerate the top-line growth in the course of 2027 and 2028. Definitely, the growth engine will be in place. I think it will give results. Remember that between 2023 and 2025, we will have lost probably EUR 2 billion of sales.
There are contracts in 2027 that will come back that I will probably regain because, in fact, we lost them in 2024. Some of our customers are not happy. I definitely think that Atos has a card to play. That's why I think we can outpace probably the market growth. Operating margin, we still, I would say, look at 10%. We have given, I would say, 9%- 10%. Remember that with Genesis, I have the 9% margin in my hands. Going, I would say, from 9%- 10%, of course, it will be with the top line and with profitable growth again. Remember, that's exactly what we are looking at. The average right now margin that we have signed for the first nine months of 2025 is around 24%, which is far enough, I would say, to yield this 10% margin.
Leverage ratio, of course, we will continue to deleverage. We will have a positive cash, of course, in 2027 and 2028. M&A, of course, will be a cash out, but I would say it doesn't change the fact that the leverage ratio will decrease. We will have a double B, I would say, profile, I would say, in the course of 2028. I would say probably an investment-grade in the course of 2028 or 2029, we will see, of course, with the rating agencies. I would say with all the job that we have done in 2025, with the fact that we have been now in the company almost one year, we are very confident, and I'm very confident, I would say, on the path for 2026, 2028. Next slide. I think it's all for this morning in terms of presentation.
We are ready, I would say, to take any questions. Operator, I give you the floor.
If you wish to ask a question, you may only ask a question by telephone by dialing the pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial the pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Frederic Boulan from BofA . Please go ahead.
Hey, good morning. Thank you very much for taking the question. First, the question around demand. If you can discuss a little bit demand and orders, how we can tie your book-to-bill ratio with your revenue growth ambitions for next year. I think your message before was an expectation of a book-to-bill to get close to 100% by the end of this year. You seem to be a bit more prudent now. Is it all down to you being more selective, or there's also some kind of more difficult demand environment? If I can ask a second question around your black and red contracts, the 20%, is this as of Q3? Is it still in the pipeline today in terms of weight of those contracts? The plan here is more to try to fix them from a margin standpoint, exit, upsell. What's the kind of strategy on those? Thank you.
Yeah. The book-to-bill, yes, we will be above 100%, I would say, the threshold of 100% in Q4 for sure. We are still aiming, let's say, from 90% to 100% on a full-year basis. There are big contracts we are renegotiating, two of them, in fact, that, of course, can push, I would say, the book-to-bill to 100%. We are in the negotiation with them. There is one in the U.S. I will be in the U.S. specifically, in fact, next week for that. The U.S. team also from our customers will be in France in November. The second one is in Europe. There have been also some contracts that we should have signed in Q3 that have slid to Q4, but that's life. It doesn't change, I would say, the 2026 revenue for that.
That's why probably, I would say, also the book-to-bill has been quite low, let's say, this quarter for Q3. We still have, I would say, we know we have a very strong commercial activity in Q4 like last year. There will be probably a lot of, I would say, good news coming in the coming weeks now. Black and red, when I say 20%, in fact, it's today at the end of August. So roughly, and in fact, in September, I'm not sure that it's going to change a lot. As I say, roughly 5% and 15%. It was more last year. Definitely, I would say the black accounts. In fact, when I say black accounts, remember it's the accounts with a margin below 5%. There are two big accounts, well, two really, I'd say, cash, let's say, negative accounts, the two business process outsourcing in the U.K.
One is burning roughly EUR 10 million cash this year. The other is around EUR 40 million. So it's EUR 50 million, of course, of cash. Next year, it will be less. The rest, in fact, is a lot of small accounts with, I would say, a margin that is close to zero. Some are big, but I would say not that many. There is only one, in fact, in the U.S. that we decided to stop. This, of course, will continue to, I would say, shrink in the course of 2026. We have taken a lot of actions on this contract. My main focus in 2025 was on the black accounts. We are almost done, I would say. They will be, I would say, less in terms of revenues in the course of 2026.
Now we are looking at the red accounts between 5% and 15% that, of course, is harming for me the profitability, probably the ones between 5% and 10% for sure because the margin of next year will be above 5%. We are now, I would say, trying to do. For these accounts, there are three possibilities for us. The first one, we renegotiate the price. Sometimes, of course, it's difficult for some customers because they don't understand why we have been serving them for years, and then suddenly, we say, sorry, but the margin is not at the right level and we need to increase price. That's why when it's not possible, of course, we stop the contract. The second one, of course, we work on the delivery process. That's why we can beef up the margin with AI, with different, I would say, with more offering.
It depends on, I would say, it's a contract by contract. All the situations, I would say, are very different, let's say, contracts by contracts and Geo by Geo, of course. The third possibility is, of course, to stop the contract. If we see that there is no possibility for us, I would say, to beef up the margin or renegotiate, then I prefer, I would say, to stop. With some customers, they understand the rationale. They understand that we cannot continue, I would say, with that level of margin. I don't know if it answers your question.
The next question comes from Nicolas David from ODDO BHF . Please go ahead.
Yes. Good morning, Philippe. Good morning, Jacques-François. Thank you for the question and congrats for the very good execution on the bottom line. Just talking about top line first. You expect above EUR 8 billion revenue, which seems to imply on an organic basis a negative -5% in Q4. It looked like if we exclude the HPC business, Jupiter contract, it was -20% in Q3. It's a nice improvement. We see that comps will help, definitely. What is going to drive the improvements beyond comps? Is it Eviden, as you stated, Philippe, already? You also mentioned in the U.S. maybe. Any color would be helpful. My second question is regarding 2026.
If the growth recovery doesn't happen as good as you are expecting, do you have some leeway in terms of the execution of the restructuring plan to go faster in order to deliver on your EBIT ambition, even if you are a bit lower in terms of top line, a bit like this year, actually. That would be my two questions.
Yeah. That's a good question. I will take first this one. Yes, there is a Genesis II in place. If something happens in the course of next year, remember, Genesis, in terms of costs, it's roughly EUR 650 million. We have probably around EUR 300 million already in the P&L this year, a little bit less. There will be probably, I would say, part of it, of course, in the course of next year, at EUR 200 million probably. We can accelerate some of the actions first. There are some actions we can take. We have already anticipated it. I would say the idea, of course, is that if there is no growth next year, I hope, of course, it's not the case, we will protect the bottom line again, exactly what we have done, in fact, this year.
I would say for the profitability, cash, there is no, I'm not very, I would say, anxious about 2026. As you know, and as you can imagine, I would say the focus I have now is really on the growth. I spend every week on this topic because it's very important that we sign non-projects. Remember also that we have what we call the small contracts. It's contracts below EUR 3 million. It's a big chunk, in fact, of our portfolio. This usually contracts with a lower, I would say, duration. That's the one also where we are spending a lot of time to make sure also that there will be also revenues in the course of next year. That's why don't be afraid because the book-to-bill is below 100%. It doesn't mean we're not going to grow next year.
Of course, I would say the smaller contracts also, we have a traction also in this in many Geos. It will yield, I would say, some results in the course of 2026. Yes, we're going to protect 2026 margin. When we're going to guide, in fact, in March, the guidance for me is almost a given. I'm not very skeptical on the EBIT we're going to deliver, in fact, in the course of 2026, whatever is the top line. I would say the main focus and all the team now is really, I would say, understands that we need to deliver growth. The incentives, in fact, on the top 20 and top 200, we change, in fact, the bonus. One-third of their, I would say, bonus will be also on the organic growth and book-to-bill.
I would say, so I would say that there is a big incentive, I would say, to restart this path of growth in the course of 2026. Yeah. Okay. Of course, for Q4, the comps are, of course, better because I think last year the turnover was around EUR 2.1 billion. If my memory is good, I'm not sure, but probably Jacques-François has the number. For sure, I would say we have a better comparison, of course, because the turnover was lower last year. Remember, of course, that in this turnover, you have a fixed FX and you have, again, work grid again in the course of Q4 last year. I don't know if you have the number Q4.
It's for Q4 disposable.
Two point? Super. [Foreign language] Non, mais c'est quoi le chiffre d'affaires? Okay. I will give you the number. Okay.
As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, you may only ask a question by telephone by dialing the pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. The next question comes from [Laurent Dor] from Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead.
Yes, thank you. Good morning, gentlemen. I have a few questions. The first is if you could come back on the contract you are not renewing because you're not managing to bring them back to profitable. What are the customers doing when you don't renew? Are they reinsourcing or do you have other players that have a better cost base than yours that are taking those deals? The second one is on the cost in 2026. I was just wondering, when you look at 2026 versus 2025, how much additional savings from the restructuring plan have you already secured or will you have secured by the end of this year? On the third question, on the return to positive growth, do you expect this to happen in the first half of next year or is 2026 expected to be back and loaded? Thank you.
Yeah. First, for the low margin, that's a good question. We see some aggressiveness from the competition to take some of our contracts. We are more than happy that they take them. No, it's not necessary that they insource the business. It's true for some of them. For example, in Germany, there have been one or two clients insourcing. In APAC also, for some banks, they have decided to re-internalize, no problem. Most of it, for example, the big one we have lost, we have decided to lose in the U.S., a digital workplace contract. It was against the competition. I'm not sure that the competition has a better cost base than us because, for example, in the U.S., we offshore most of our business.
Some of our competitors, and you know that we don't work with the federal state, so we are not, let's say, harmed like probably some of my competitors. They are looking to cope with the revenue decrease and probably trying to take some share. I don't understand exactly how they're going to manage some of the contracts we have lost, but it's okay. We will see. For the cost 2026, as I say, we have roughly the run rate is around EUR 450 million. It means we have roughly EUR 300 million of the results of Genesis in the P&L this year, which means that, in fact, if we have not done Genesis, we will be at a zero EBIT and probably with the situation of the company. You have at least EUR 150 million coming that is already coming in the course of 2026 with the results with the actions of 2025.
At least, the EUR 340 million can yield to roughly close to EUR 500 million, a little bit less. I don't remember your third question, sorry. If it's backloaded, that's a good question. I don't know yet because I need to review. Right now, the budget is almost done for 2026. I have the numbers for the year. I don't have the numbers by quarter, so give me a little bit more time before I can answer. The answer for me is that, yeah, my view is that, of course, the comps will be better quarter by quarter. It's probably an acceleration in H2 versus H1. That's my view. Yeah.
On the second question, the number you see at EUR 300 million and over EUR 150 million is the cost you have in your P&L. I think, if I understand right, I was just more thinking about the savings for 2022.
No, no, it's the savings.
I'm not sure it's a one-for-one.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The savings is EUR 400 million, EUR 450+ million . EUR 300 million savings already in the P&L this year. That's why we have been able, I would say, to show EUR 300 million plus EBIT this year. EUR 150 million coming already, I would say, in the P&L of the savings coming, I would say, in the P&L of 2026. Of course, we have increasing costs. There is a lot of things coming, of course, in the P&L. I would say the results of the Genesis in 2025 give already EUR 150 million of savings already, I would say, for 2026. You see, for example, in Germany, as I say, we're going to triple the profitability. It comes from the plan that we are exiting, I would say, putting in Q4. There is a big 1,000 people, in fact, exiting in Q4 in Germany.
Part of it, in fact, in Q4, some of them, in fact, in the course of 2026. I think I already said, but in Germany, it will give roughly EUR 100 million of savings. Part of these savings, roughly EUR 60+ million , will come already, in fact, in place for next year.
Thank you.
For information, the Q4 last year was EUR 1.9 billion without, I would say, the FX, and EUR 1.945 billion exactly without FX and World Grid, so a little bit below EUR 2 billion.
The next question comes from Sam Morton from Invesco. Please go ahead.
Hi. Just a couple of questions, please. Firstly, I think you mentioned refinancing during 2026. I guess the liquidity position is very strong, and the free cash flow is coming in quite nice. Can you talk about what that refinancing looks like? Secondly, the operating margins are obviously coming in ahead for this year, but no change to the medium-term outlook. I'm just wondering what would give you the confidence to change the medium-term outlook on the operating margin. Thanks.
Okay. First, refinancing, it's a will. It's too soon for me to say if we will be able to do it. I definitely think that after 2025 results with the guidance, the fact that we will be cash flow positive, we have, I think, a window that is opening. We will see. I don't know yet if we will be able, I would say, to refinance, but definitely the 1L that is, of course, at 13%+ , we want to refinance this instrument. We will have probably, it's a Q2 next year or Q3. It depends, I would say, on the window that will be open. It will depend, of course, on the market conditions. You know that better than me. We will come back probably in the earlier results of 2025 because we will be prepared for that. We are preparing ourselves, I would say, to refinance.
If it's possible, we will do it. If it's not possible, then, of course, we will wait. That's, I would say, we will be. I think what is very important is that the company will be ready. We will see, of course, what is the market ready, I would say, to swallow in terms of, I would say, new debt versus old debt. The guidance, so yes, of course, the 10%, 9%, 10% margin. So 4%+ this year. Next year, there will be a big jump again. I would say we are. Of course, it's more than the between 4% and 10%. You have roughly more than 3%. So it's roughly 7%. We will see what kind of guidance we're going to give next year. There will be a jump for sure in the course of next year because of the results of the Genesis transformation plan in 2025.
Remember after that, that the growth coming on the top line, I will probably try to get, I would say, the cost of flattish plus. For example, if we go, let's say, by, let's say, 4% in 2027, it gives probably EUR 300+ million in terms of sales. At 2025 margin, it's roughly EUR 75 million of OEM for us. It's roughly, I would say, a marginal increase. As you can see, EUR 75 million, it's roughly one point. That's why I say it goes very fast, in fact, because we're going to master the cost and make sure, I would say, they will be flattish. That's why the marginal growth also will bring, I would say, points in terms of EBIT margin. The cost of Genesis, the reduction of cost will yield results, of course, in 2025, 2026, and 2027. Most of it will be 2025 and 2026.
There will be still, I would say, some improvements in the course of 2027. The growth will take the relay, I would say, in 2027 and 2028. That's exactly the way we can play, I would say, this 10% margin for 2028.
Thank you.
There are no more questions at this time. I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.
Okay. Let's try once more. Any other questions? No? If not, thank you for your time. Thank you for your attention also. We are quite, I would say, there are quite a lot of number of people at this call. We are very happy. I think as a key message, confidence is there. Discipline, I think, is very important that you remember this, I would say, word. Discipline for the top line, discipline for the cost. Definitely, I would say that for me, Atos is back. Have a good day and talk to you for the next release, which is March 6th for the full results of 2025. We think there will be probably a publish in January with, of course, the revenues and also the liquidity position. It will be in the course of January. Have a good day. Bye-bye.