Good morning, everybody. I'm very pleased to be with you today to present you the results of GTT for year 2017. Well, you know, the company, just some elements to remind you the principal elements. You know that we are an engineering company designing containment systems for LNG. We have more than 50 year of experience. We are licensing our technologies to shipyards and to various industrial partners. We are assisting our industrial partners in the construction of our systems. But the key elements for 2017, the total revenues have been EUR 232 million in a consolidated accounts, so slightly below the figures for 2016, 237.
The net income has been EUR 116 million, slightly below the figure reached for 2016, which was EUR 120 million. As of December 2017, we were at 333 employees, different types of contracts. So we are a fairly small company in terms of headcount. Key highlights, we have currently an order book of 89 units. We obtained in 2017 21 orders, 8 FSRUs, 12 LNG carriers, and 1 FLNG.
We obtained large contracts for services from very large companies, such as Teekay, which is one of the largest shipowner in the world, from Chevron, from Shell, for the maintenance of the Prelude FLNG, which is, as you know, the largest floating structure ever built by man. We acquire in 2017 a company in Singapore, Ascenz, which is providing smart energy management solutions for ships. And we propose to maintain the dividend of EUR 2.66 that we are paying for several years. So some market updates. Well, as you know, the gas is regularly growing in the worldwide energy mix. Within the fossil fuel, this is the only one which is growing, probably because it's by far the cleanest among all the fossil fuels.
In gas, LNG is growing very quickly. So that's what we see, that's what we saw in 2017, that's what we saw also in the recent years. Well, this graph is showing the balance between supply and demand for LNG. We were under the impression some time ago that, between all the new projects which were launched in the current decade and the demand, a balance could be reached by something like 2023. We are more positive about that now. We think that this balance can be reached by 2021. That is very important because it means that, by 2021, you may need additional quantities of LNG.
If this assumption is true, it means that final investment decisions on new projects have to be taken almost immediately. Of course, final investment decisions are determining new additional need for ships, so new ships to be ordered. So that's the fundamental point about the demand for ships. Well, when we look at how the market behaved for LNG in 2017, we saw that a very strong increase in Asia of the imports for LNG. If you look at China, for example, the quantities have been increased by 47%, so it's totally huge.
By the way, China has become the second-largest importing country in terms of LNG behind Japan. They've overtaken Korea. Of course, we know the situation in China. They are very concerned about pollution. They would like to turn to cleaner, cleaner fuels, and a fuel of choice is LNG. Their capacity to increase at such a rate shows that the infrastructures necessary to import additional quantities are there and are developing fast. In other Asian countries, you see maybe in a smaller extent, but you can see this switch from coal to energy, which is also determining an increase of imports in LNG.
Well, we see also new importing countries which have contributed to the demand growth, whether it's Pakistan, Jordan, Singapore, even a country like Malaysia, which is exporting energy, is more and more importing energy. So the demand remained strong all over the world, and once you've begun to import LNG, generally, you continue. Well, this graph is showing the competitiveness of American LNG, including shipping against Asian LNG. You know, that there are different pricing structures for LNG.
American LNG is based on Henry Hub, which is the price of gas in U.S., while the Asian LNG is based on a percentage of the oil price according to the energy power of LNG and transported to Asia. And we see that American LNG now with the current oil price as we become very competitive against Asian LNG. So that is very positive for American projects and also for all the projects which have been decided in the U.S., which possibly will be able to find easily customers in the years to come. Well, the charter rates, so how you can I hope you can rent your ships on the market.
We can see that for a year or so, or you can see that in 2017, there was a very strong rebound of the charter rates for LNG carriers. So, basically, that confirms what I was explaining to you, that there is a demand, there is a very strong need for ships. And we could see that on the LNG carrier market, this need for ships has been confirmed by the charter rates. So now we are definitely above the breakeven point, which is, of course, rendering the decision for shipowners for ordering new ships much easier.
Well, to keep you abreast with our account of the need of ships for the existing projects, we put on this chart all the existing projects, all the ships which have been ordered for these projects, according to our knowledge. And we arrive to a figure of a need of 36.7 ships for all these projects. So, well, we are below, of course, the figures we were talking to you about a year ago, which was closer to something like 50 ships. Of course, that takes into account the ships which have been ordered in 2017. But the need, of course, is still there.
Bear in mind that, all these projects, except the last one, Coral LNG, are supposed to come in service by 2017, 2019 or 2020. So, well, we can see that there is a demand potential, which is fairly significant there. Looking at the projects which could be decided, while we see some of them, and, in particular, if we look at the US, we see that, they've passed, all the, some of them have passed all the technical or regulatory milestones and are ready to be decided. There is the marketing point on which, I would say the developers of these projects are fairly catchy.
But all the technical milestones have been decided, and in a certain extent, they are in the offings for being decided whenever developers are going to feel ready for that. We could add other projects, those following the LNG market could talk about Arctic Two. It's a kind, after the success, the amazing success of Yamal built in four years from the decision up to the delivery of the first LNG quantities. Russia and Russian partners are contemplating deciding a second Yamal project named Arctic Two.
We could talk about the development of Qatar, and we could talk of other projects such as in Mozambique. So there are many projects which are getting much closer to be decided. And it will be interesting to see how it's going to move in 2018. So our business activities, core business, we can see that our core activity is still the LNG carrier business, even though we are developing fast on FSRUs and on services. But our bread and butter is still the LNG carrier.
So energy carriers, we can see that we are still we have still a quite very strong position on this market with after the flow of orders we had last year. Progressing regularly on technology technologies for energy carriers allow us to maintain this strong position. And of course, our past experience on this system these systems is helping us very much. FSRUs, we had last year eight orders of FSRUs. I would say that it's quite quite amazing. I would like to remind you that all the new built FSRUs ever designed have been designed by us.
So it's really a very particular field of expertise for us. People are looking at that as a kind of a special energy carrier. We see that very differently, and the more we improve these systems, the more we work on these systems, the more we take into account the specificities of these systems, which are facilities which have to remain operational in any kind of conditions. And then you can maximize the return on investment on these piece of equipment.
Of course, the feeling of having a kind of plenty of LNG was very much pushing the demand for FSRUs, because people were considering that they were needing new gates for delivering LNG, and ordering FSRUs could be an opportunity for that. FLNG, we obtained in 2017 an order for FLNG, so that's the fourth one. For there as well, all the two FLNGs ordered in the world have been designed by us. That's the fourth one after the Prelude and the two Petronas. So two have already been delivered. So it's still very new, but very strong advantage.
You can operate on the stranded fields, and as you can move the facility, the period for amortizing this very expensive piece of equipment can be much longer. So definitely it's of interest for large energy companies. So LNG as a fuel, something I'm talking to you about for quite a while. We saw in 2017 a very large order from CMA CGM for 9 container ships with very large tanks, 18,000 cubic meters, so one-tenth of the volume of LNG carrier. So it gives to the owner the capacity to go from Europe to Asia and back with only one refueling.
So I think that for the owner, it's a trump card, allowing them to bunker at a very competitive price in a given place of the world, because you have a quite large spread in LNG prices according to the place in the world where you bunker. We can see there that for these large tanks, membrane is the solution of choice, because you don't want to waste commercial space. You don't want to compromise places dedicated to cargo. These volumes can very hardly be reached by other systems. So the choice of membrane is a kind of no-brainer for owners.
Well, the regulations are coming into place more and more all around the world, and LNG is a solution which is complying with all the regulations. So, it's once it's competitive, which is the case now with the oil price, it's a solution of choice. So if we look at what could be the situation, you see on this chart the various ships offered on the market. You can see that, well, there are ships for which the tanks are small, and some ships where the tanks are much bigger.
You can see, well, we have not been able to show you on this graph the size of the tanks of the CMA CGM, but even at, we can see that there are many ships which have very large, very large tanks, which could be a quite good opportunity for membrane. So, we are going to work on these shipping segment while on the others, other solutions could develop. Anyway, for us, it's, I would say, concentrating on some market segments, it's allowing us not to spread our resources on too many things.
And also, if LNG is developing on some shipping segments that we cannot address, it's always a development of LNG. It means more facilities, more LNG carriers, more bunker ships, so more opportunities for us to develop on these things. So if we look at these shipping segments as well, we can see here the number of annual orders, which, for example, for container ships, there are different sizes. But for container ships, you can have up to 250 or even a bit more container ships ordered in a year.
So it's not at all a small market, even though the tanks may not be as big as the CMA CGM, it's a very large market. We are looking at some other large ships, such as VLCC, the big tankers, or VLOCs, very large ore carriers, the big bulkers, for which we think that our solutions can apply as well, and that's market segments of choice. On the left-hand side of the chart, you can see the PCTCs or the cruise ships, which are also segments we are looking at.
Cruise ships, you are not talking of so many ships, but still, it's something which in our opinion is making a lot of sense, as long as the business terms are satisfying. And PCTCs, for us also, it's something which makes sense. So if we look at the potential, we see that there are very large numbers. Probably what we are concentrating on, it's very large, very large ships, for which our solution is applying at most. And still, for example, for container ships, bulkers, oil tankers, you're talking of an historical average over the last 10 years of about 320 ships.
So maybe it will take a bit of time to arrive to these figures, or it will take time, because the maritime world is a conservative world, and before switching to a new solution, they would like to be very sure that it's reliable, it's very robust. But there is a quite strong market potential, which fully justify the insistence we put on these opportunities for several years. Well, just to illustrate the solutions we are working on, you can see how we install a tank on a container ships.
You can see, in fact, on a cruise ship, that this tank could be very much very low in the structures of the ship, so not really decreasing the number of cabins. We imagine some retrofit solution where you cut the ship; it's something which is done regularly in the shipbuilding industry, and you add a block with a membrane tank. And of course, we, whenever the LNG as a fuel is developing, we can propose our technologies for the bunker ships, the ships which are going to deliver LNG. We are building a barge in the U.S., which is going to be delivered soon, and we've been selected by MOL for building the bunker ship-...
which is going to deliver energy to the CMA CGM ships. So in fact, when you look at CMA CGM, probably, the energy which is going to be transported for bunkering the CMA CGM, it's going to be a membrane ship. The bunker ship is going to be a membrane ship, and the tank for in the CMA CGM container ship is going to be membrane. So we are on all the segments of this chain. Service activities, well, we are continuing our developments there. I told you that we signed large contracts with Shell and Chevron, TK. So we have a large range of services which are satisfying different needs from owners.
We are more and more capable of offering a wide range of service in a one-off frame contract to owners. We acquire Ascenz, which is providing energy management systems to ships, and we are very excited to all what we are going to be able to develop with them. So Ascenz transaction, we acquire 75% of the capital of the company. The founders are keeping 25% and are going to continue to manage the company. It has been funded in cash. The transaction has been closed at the end of January. It's not going to have a significant impact on our financial structure.
We see plenty of commercial and technical synergies that we are going to develop in the next months. So, they have about 10 years of experience. There are few energy management system companies which are successful, capable of selling their solutions and capable of being profitable, in the case of Ascenz. They are supplying that to ships which are not LNG-fueled or which are not LNG carriers. So they are going to continue on this line, while we are going to work with them on developing solutions for LNG carriers and for LNG-fueled ships.
So when we look at our roadmap, so on the left bottom part of the chart, you see a chart that you know quite well, that we are showing you with the enlargement. On this column, you have the services that we are developing for several years. On the upper line, you have the new applications we are developing, mainly energy as a fuel. And now we are going to, we are looking beyond, so we are looking at very smart shipping solutions, well, thanks to these Ascenz solutions. We are looking also at gas handling technologies. We think that for energy as a fuel, there are expertises which have which are going to have more and more values.
We are working there, and we are looking at the convergence between these two directions, between smart shipping and gas handling technologies. That's the area of growth we've identified. So pass on the floor to Marc. Thank you.
So now a tour of our financials, starting with the order book. So this is the picture you are now familiar with this graph. I would like to point to your attention, particularly the order book in value and how that translates into secured revenues for the following years. We have EUR 225 million royalties only for 2018, EUR 124 million for 2019, and EUR 38 million for 2020. The bars on the right, the pale blue bars, are the same picture which was taken one year ago, which you will certainly recall. This is presented in IAS 18, which is the current accounting treatment. As you probably know, there is a new accounting standard which will be applicable from the first of...
Which is applicable from the first of January 2018. On the next slide, I'm showing exactly what the differences are. You can see that the differences are fairly, fairly small, because within IAS, IFRS 15, we will still be recognizing revenue on along the construction periods of the ships. The only difference is that we'll be recognizing revenues on the basis of an average revenue for a series of ships, rather than individually, for each ship. So that is why you have slight differences, but no significant change from the previous method. Another new thing is we are publishing, for the first time, consolidated accounts.
We hadn't been doing this before because of the fairly small size of our subsidiaries, they are still small. But since the acquisition of Ascenz, which we closed on the thirty-first of January of this year, then we will be consolidating Ascenz also in our books, hence the switch from this year. You have the list of our subsidiaries here, Cryovision, Cryometrics, GTT Training, GTT North America, and GTT Southeast Asia. Of course, Ascenz will be added to the list for the next consolidation at the half year. Numbers now, revenues at EUR 231.6 compared to EUR 237, it was mentioned. We have still the impact of the low level of orders in 2016.
So revenues from royalties were down 3.9%. On the other hand, we had a sharp increase in services, an increase of 36%, in particular, due to good performance in maintenance services. On the cost side, we have continued our policy of lean cost management. Our reported net margin is just over 50%. We have one-off items, which have impacted our net results. Positive, we've had successful outcome of claims on the innovation and research tax credits for EUR 3.5 million. But we have also written a provision for a tax adjustment for EUR 15.2 million.
Now, if we exclude the impact of this provision, this EUR 15.2 million provision, the increase in net margin ratio would have been, or the net margin ratio would have been 56.8% as compared to the 50.6% of last year, so 6 points. And this, of course, translates all the way up in the various indicators. Still low CapEx, this is our business model, and we've had also a negative change in working capital at EUR 21.3 million, which was due to a cut-off effect. In fact, one customer paid their invoices in the first few days of January instead of at the end of December. Strong cash generation. The cash position is close to EUR 100 million, despite the generous dividend we have paid.
A focus on the cost base, already highlighted. Two main impacts. On external costs, we have reduced the external cost by 17% at EUR 7.5 million. In particular, we have reduced the usage of subcontractors with a benefit of EUR 5.4 million. We have also made saving on travel costs for close to EUR 1 million and also savings on other external costs for EUR 1.5 million. On the staff cost side, these have reduced by 5%, which is, in fact, in line with the decrease in headcount, which was also 5%.
The dividend, so we will be proposing for 2017, dividend of EUR 2.66, same as last year and the two previous years, which represents a payout ratio based on our statutory, French accounts. That's all the financial. I'll hand back to Philippe for conclusion.
Thank you, Marc. So, for the dividend, we are going to keep the 2.66 EUR dividend, which is representing an 86% payout on the distributable results in French standards. For the revenues, we are anticipating for 2018 would be in the range of EUR 235 million-EUR 250 million, so we anticipate an increase compared to the figures obtained in 2017. An EBITDA which would be in the range of EUR 145 million-EUR 155 million. We think you're more interested in the EBITDA and the possible growth of the EBITDA rather than on net margin.
For the dividend, while we would like to see for the dividend for year 2017, as I told you, a dividend of EUR 2.66. We anticipate that in 2018, the dividend should be at least equal to what it has been between 2015 and 2017. For 2019, we would like to continue with our policy of serving a dividend of at least 80%. That's all. Now we are ready to answer to your questions.
If you would like to ask a question over the telephone today, please press star one. That's star one to ask a question over the telephone.
Hey, good morning, Kevin Roger from Kepler Cheuvreux. One quick question on the guidance that you gave for 2018. You do not provide the guidance for the net income margin this year, so I was wondering if you could precise it, and if you should expect still a net income margin above 50%? And second question is on the long-term guidance. You have slightly revised on your assumption in terms of LNG cargo demand for the next 10 years. Can you please explain a bit why you have slightly revised it down? And also you do not provide your view on the long-term LNG as a fuel solution. But I was wondering if you can provide some information for the next 10 years to give a guidance for the LNG cargo, FSRUs, FLNG on shore.
So if you could give some indication for the also LNG as a fuel solution in terms of cargo to be ordered for the next 10 years? Thanks.
So on the net margin, I would say that probably we will let you work a little bit on your models. And with the indication we gave you on the turnover we are expecting for 2018, and the EBITDA, well, we will get your copies, and we will see who is getting close to the right figure. But I think it's not that difficult to see that well, with the growth of turnover we are expecting, and the EBITDA we are expecting, what could be the decent margin we could expect. So that's the first point.
The second point, it's the guidance. Yes, we have slightly revised the figures for the next 10 years. Well, what we can see is, we had about 12 orders in 2017. So significantly 12 orders in LNG carriers, significantly below what the market is. We think that while we see a certain flow of orders linked to the projects which have been decided, but well, we need a strong rebound on the FIDs, and we are expecting that either in 2018 or 2019. We are now adjusting these expectations year after year, rather than keeping to a very high figure.
While, probably we take into account a certain, reasonable, careful view of what people are considering. While, the main... I would say that the main parameter determining the demand for LNG carriers, first, the new FIDs, and second, it's where the projects are going to be. If they are in the U.S., you need a lot of LNG carriers. And especially now, we see ships which are not going to Asia, which are not even passing by the new Panama Canal, which have to pass through the Suez Canal or Cape of Good Hope, so with much longer trip. So, in that case, we are on a significantly higher figures.
So we are going to continue to adjust our expectations on what the market for LNG carriers are going to be according to the structures of the LNG business. And your last point was dealing with the guidance about LNG as a fuel. While we've given you our view of what could be LNG as a fuel, and we've given you some elements, we've told you where is our sweet spot or our sweet spots, large tanks on large ships. We've given you the number of ships that we see in these segments.
We told you that the inception, the adoption by owners of this new solution is not going to come overnight, because we are working in a conservative world that we know quite well, and we know how to build confidence in this conservative world. It will not come overnight. It will develop. At which page? It's a bet we've not taken. But we are expecting that it's going to develop. We are seeing where we can develop, and we are working on that.
Guillaume de Labarrière, Société Générale. One question regarding the CMA CGM contract. Was this contract the first one, which has been signed in partnership with Wärtsilä? And globally speaking, how important is Wärtsilä for your commercial prospects for LNG bunkering going forward? And let's assume, sorry, that this partnership, for any reason, doesn't go very well on a day-to-day basis, how bad could it be for you?
Well, on CMA CGM, no, it's not the first result of the Wärtsilä partnership. We are working very well with them on this business, but we worked for many years, in fact, on CMA CGM, telling them that LNG as a fuel is an excellent solution. So we worked alone there. On the second point, if things are not turning so well, what will happen? Well, Wärtsilä is a very large company. We are a small company. We think that we can do things together, but that is not going to- it's not preventing us from keeping on marketing our solutions directly, nor it prevent them to do the same.
And if it finally does not work well, we will keep on doing what we do. Probably we will not be harmed, and most probably, we will remain good friends with Wärtsilä. We are trying to find an easy solution, an easier solution for shipowners. I will keep on telling you that we are working in a conservative world, and in fact, having two very reputable companies with a very good and strong reputation as GTT and Wärtsilä partnering on LNG as a fuel solution is a factor of comfort for the industry, which is... It's rather helping the industry to turn to LNG.
We look at that as in this manner: how can we accelerate the development of the industry to the switch of the industry to LNG in partnering together? If it does not work as expected, of course, we have fallback solutions.
Yes. Hello, Pierre Schang speaking from Amilton Asset Management. A few questions. First, we have seen that the provision impacted your results. Sorry. So if we take out the provision, we should see an increase of the EBIT margin by a stronger, which is meaningful. So my question is, what explain this adjusted margin increase? So first question.
Well, the adjusted margin increased, and in fact, we did not hide that at the beginning of 2017. We said we are going to work on our cost structures in order to keep ... I think we said competitiveness. We should have said our profitability. But we worked on that. We reduced significantly our cost structures, and we reduced our head count. And well, we saw at the end of 2016 that the flow of orders was significantly less. We've been pleased, of course, by the rebound in 2017. But in the way we ...
I will not say we manage the cycle, but because I don't see so much the cycle, but let's assume that there is a cycle, and in this phase we managed it with a very strict cost control, and early decisions on our cost structures. So it has had these consequences on our profitability. Unfortunately, we had to pass this provision.
This cost control has happened essentially on the external charges, I guess?
External charges and internal charges. External charges are often the easiest one to take, especially with our model, where we are subcontracting many mundane engineering work, many things which are not so difficult to do. And we can subcontract that to various companies. So you can fairly easily reduce these contracts. It's more difficult to reduce your cost structures, especially when you have a very lean approach, but we did it as well in 2017.
Second question on the Mark V technology. So you expect certification this year? So maybe you can give us some color about this point.
Well, the Mark V technology is certified. We obtained approvals from the large classification societies, the various approvals. So, it's a technology which has been approved. We stopped it irrespective of these approvals, because we had a concern on the thermal performance of this technology. And we will come back once we have found not only a technical solution, the technical solution in a certain way is not so difficult. What is difficult is to provide a technical solution which is affordable and easy to build for shipyards, and affordable, which is not increasing too much the cost of the system.
That's on that we are working, and we expect to be able to find a solution in a not too distant future.
Thank you.
Yes, good morning, Baptiste Lebacq, Natixis. Two questions, if I may. The first one is on the Korea Fair Trade Commission inquiry. Can you make an update regarding your discussion?
Again, as a reminder, to ask a question today, please press star one. That's star one to ask a question.
Sure, you still have a decrease of your CapEx. With the development of the bunkering, can we expect an acceleration of the CapEx in order to develop this technology? Or will it not impact your CapEx in the future? Thank you.
On the KFTC, I would say that, for the time being, there are not a lot of exchanges. And so the situation is still the same. We were telling you that once there would be a kind of acceleration or development in the discussions, as you said, we will keep you abreast, and we did not have any material elements to communicate on that. On the CapEx, I would say that, depending on what we do, we have sometimes some kind of peak in our R&D expenses.
We did not have that in 2017, as we did not embark in a major, I would say major trials of our systems. For example, sometimes we built mock-ups of a new system, which is a significant expense. And we try, in fact, to maintain our R&D effort years after years with the long-term view, without taking too much into consideration the evolution of the turnover. We have the chance of being able to do that, to keep a kind of steady effort and not to influence the budgets of R&D under the pressure of the evolution of the turnover. So we expect to keep on doing that.
We keep on seeing things, quite interesting things to do in terms of R&D, which means that over the next years, we will maintain a fairly high flow of expenses there. In particular, but among other things, for LNG as a fuel, where we see things to do, we'll try to do it in a lean manner as for the rest. I mean, trying to see how we can maybe share that with some partners or limit as much as possible the developments. But it's true that LNG as a fuel is a wide area of developments.
It may be something that I've tried to pass on to you, when I was showing you the strategic map and saying the smart shipping applications and the gas handling technologies. Well, that things which will have a lot of sense for LNG as a fuel.
Jean-François Granjon from Oddo BHF. Four questions, please. The first one, can you come back on the last year, we saw, some lower deliveries, at 28 deliveries last year, compared to, 37 expected previous years. So can you explain why? And, are there some reports in 2018? The second question, we saw that, a strong decrease for the, the estimate cost, and more specifically for the studies, et cetera, by about 30%. But with the new, new order income, new order intake, sorry, today, do you expect growth and strong growth for studies and similar costs, this, this year? So this should have reduced impact on the, on the margin. The third question, concerns the services businesses.
We saw last year a strong growth by 35% for the sales. These are intakes some exceptional revenues, and what do you expect for this year, for the services by more than EUR 13 million? And last question, with Ascenz, well, can you quantify the sales from Ascenz integrated in the business for GTT this year? Thank you.
Okay. Well, for lower deliveries in 2017 than expected, yes, there were some delays, which, to be blunt, to be candid, of course, has an impact on the turnover of 2018. But I would say that it's a phenomenon we saw in the recent years, where each year there are some delays which have a positive impact on the following year. Something interesting to see would be to see whether it's going to repeat itself in 2018, as it did over the past four years. The second point is about the studies.
Yes, the studies will increase in 2018, as we signed up for many orders in 2017. It's never, it's never, never enough, but quite a lot of orders, and especially with several structures which are quite complicated, such as FSRUs. So it will go up. Of course, we will keep on having a strict approach on these expenses. For services, no, there is nothing really exceptional, except maybe the fact that, in 2016, definitely, the players in the energy industries, whether they are owners or big energy companies, were very strict on their expenses.
In 2017, they were a bit more in a spending mood, and we benefited from that. We are keeping on introducing new solutions and new approach to services, so we will keep on doing that in 2018. And I would say, while this business line is still small, but when you are growing at 35%, it's something good. In 2018, we will consolidate Ascenz, so we will have an increase there. And as I was hinting in our presentation, we are seeing things to do with them.
So, maybe I'm not insisting on that as much as on the energy as a fuel, but definitely it's something which has a lot of importance in our strategy. So on Ascenz, we don't have comments on the sales figure, the sales figures yet. Other questions? Are there any questions from the board or internet? If you don't have any other questions, thank you very much for joining us today.