Earnings Call: Q4 2017

Feb 27, 2018

Good morning and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Xtron's Full Year 2017 and Q4 2017 Results Conference Call. Please note that today's call is being recorded. Let me now hand you over to Mr. Guido Piguet, VP of IR and Corporate Communications at Xtron for opening remarks and introductions. Thank you, operator. Let me start by welcoming you all to our results conference call. I'd also like to welcome our Executive Board represented by Doctor. Felix Gravert and Doctor. Bernd Schuld as well as our VP of Finance and Administration, Charles Russell. As the operator indicated, this call is being recorded by Exron and is considered copyright material. As such, it cannot be rerecorded or rebroadcast without expressed permission. Your participation in this call implies your consent to this recording. As with previous results conference calls, I trust that all participants have our results presentation slides, Page 2 of which contains the usual Safe Harbor statement. I will not read it out loud, but would like to point out that it applies throughout this call. You may also wish to have a look at our latest IR master presentation, which includes additional information on Exon's market and its technologies and is available on our website as well. This call is not being immediately presented via webcast or any other medium. However, we will place an audio file of the recording or transcript on our website at some point after the call. I would now like to hand you over to Doctor. Bernd Schulte for opening remarks. Bernd? Thanks, Guido. And let me welcome you all to the presentation of Axon's Q4 and full year 2017 results. I will start with an overview of the major developments in 2017 before handing over to Charles Russells, our Vice President, Finance and Administration, who will guide you through the financials. This will be followed by Felix Gravert, who will talk about the current market environment. Finally, I will close our presentation with our views on our business prospects in 2018. After that, we are happy to get your questions. 2017 has been an important year of change for Xtron. We did manage to refocus the business on long term profitable opportunities for growth and we could also manage to bring from the sale of our memory business late last year. On the other hand, results from the solid work the Exxon team has done to return our operative business to sustainable profitability. Let me quickly summarize the measures we have taken to achieve a more focused technology and product portfolio. We have sold our ALD CVD product line for memory applications to Eugene Technology. There, we competed with much larger manufacturers from the silicon industry with an increasingly limited opportunities to grow our market share. Hence, the chance for us to bring this product line to sustainable profitability has been increasingly limited too. We have frozen our development activities in the area of MOCVD for compound semiconductors in logic processors on 300 millimeter wafers. After discussions with our key customer, the originally expected market opportunities for this innovative technology were not predictable in the near to medium term. Therefore, no further development efforts are being invested in this field for the time being. In the area of OLED, we have discontinued our development activities for thin film encapsulation of OLED devices. The OLED activities are now focused on the OVPT technology for depositing different layers of the OLED stack, which have been transferred to the Extron subsidiary, Apeba. After these steps, we are focused on our core technology, MOSVD, for opto and power electronics applications, plasma enhanced CVD for nanostructures and organic vapor paste deposition for OLEDs. Felix will give you details on the current market opportunities of our MOCVD business. In addition to our MOCVD product line, we are currently developing a second product line for thin film deposition of organic materials, primarily for OLED displays. Our OLED activities have been transferred to our daughter company, AphiVA, and the discussions with the potential joint venture partners are ongoing. AGEN-one OBCD system is in operation at an Asian display manufacturer's R and D line. AGEN 2 system will be soon installed at the customer's facility in order to qualify the technology for mass production. If successful in qualification and adopted by our customers, the OVBD technology offers a very high revenue and profit potential in the years to come. However, if the qualification is not successful, then this potential might not materialize at all and we would need to adjust our R and D spending accordingly. As a result and based on our strong position in these markets as well as more efficient production processes, we managed to improve our gross margins last year. This was particularly the case in the second half of the year when gross margin reached 39% to 40%, which also reflects the increasing sale of better margin products based on the growing value of high performance solutions to our customers. Finally, with total revenues of €230,000,000 in 2017, we reached the upper range of our target for the year, while order intake also developed better than originally expected at EUR 263,000,000 We are also better than breakeven with an EBIT reaching EUR 5,000,000 and a net income of EUR 6,500,000 At this point, let me now hand you over to Charles for a more detailed overview of the Q4 and the full year 2017 numbers. Thanks, Bernd, and hello to everyone. Turning to the key financial slide. 2017 was a good year for Extron with revenues and orders at the best level since 2011. Orders received were €263,000,000 and revenues €230,000,000 each a 17% increase on 2016. The strong orders reflect improved conditions, particularly in our 2 core markets, MOCVD for LED and for optoelectronics. In addition, order intake in Q4 of €66,000,000 means that we begin the year with a backlog based on a budget rate of USD 1.20 of EUR 102,000,000 which gives us a good start for 2018. Gross margin was much improved in 2017 at 32% compared with 29% in 2016. This was mainly due to a better product mix, particularly in the second half. The first half suffered from low margin sales of R6 tools and was also affected by the write downs from freezing the 3.5 on silicon and TFV activities. Overall, as expected, both EBIT and net profit were positive, a black 0, as a consequence the sale of the ALD CBD product line and the other structural actions which we took during the year. We haven't separated out the one off effects in the slides, but you can find them in the Notes 5 and 15 to the financial statements. Cash flow in 2017 was €91,000,000 mainly as a result of the sale of the ALD CBD product line and collections from the high level of receivables at the end of 2016. Moving to the next slide. Let me go into more depth on the income statement. As a general picture, the activities which we sold or froze during 2017 had revenues of €39,000,000 and even taking into account the profit on disposal of ARD CBD, still made a small EBIT loss. The remaining activities made a small EBIT profit in spite of the low margin R6 sales in the first half. Gross margin in Q4 was 39%. This is free from the effects of the low margin sales from the old or sold product lines and is therefore indicative of what we should expect in the coming periods. For the year, the gross margin improved to 32% as previously mentioned. Selling expenses for 2017 were €10,000,000 compared with €14,000,000 in the previous year. The 2016 costs included the closure of a demonstration facility in China. G and A expenses were €17,000,000 the same as 2016. The quarterly expense for G and A is unusually low because on completion of the ALD CVD transaction in Q4, transaction expenses have to be reassigned and included within net other operating income. R and D costs increased by 28% year on year from €54,000,000 in 2016 to €69,000,000 in 20.17. This includes the write downs in T FOS and TFE, which took place in the first half and also the increased spending on R and D, particularly in the OLED area. Our OLED Gen 2 development expense should be relatively high over the coming months during the period of evaluation. Other operating income increased to €24,000,000 profit on the sale of the ALD CBD product line. EBIT for 2017 was €5,000,000 compared with minus €21,000,000 in 2016. We recorded a tax credit in 2017 from deferred tax in the USA. We still have a substantial amount of unrecognized tax losses, both in the U. S. And Germany. And if things go to plan, we anticipate further recognition of these assets in 2018. The net result for 2017 was €6,000,000 profit. Moving to the cash flow slide. Our cash improved from EUR 160,000,000 last year to EUR 246,000,000 at the end of 2017. The most significant factors in this are the €61,000,000 we received from the sale of ALD CBD and €39,000,000 from collections from receivables. €12,000,000 of the cash we received as a result of the sale of ALD CBD, we have to pay out to 3rd parties in 2018, and that will reduce this year's cash flow. CapEx for 2017 totaled €10,000,000 compared with €9,000,000 in 2016. Turning to the next slide, our balance sheet. Exelon's balance sheet is in good shape at the end of 2017 with improvements in metrics for cash, receivables, inventories and customer advance payments. The ALD CBD liabilities are included in others, and the equity ratio was 81% at the end of 2017. With that, let me hand you over to Felix. Thank you, Charles. Hello to everyone. Let me take you through recent developments in the markets we address, turning to Slide number 8. First to the laser based 3 d sensor market. Lasers are increasingly used for 3 d sensor application in consumer electronics, industry and also the automotive sector. We have seen the introduction of 3 d sensing features in a high end smartphone, and now demand is expected from the Android camp as well. We serve customers from Europe, the U. S. And Asia, and it is expected that the strong market conditions in this segment will last beyond 2018 as 3 d sensing is proliferating across the portfolios of smartphone vendors requiring an ever growing number of laser units per year. Xtron is well positioned in the segment of MOCVD tool for lasers because this application requires high uniformity and precision in the deposited layers. The strength of our tools matches well with the customer requirements in the segment. In order to keep our strong market position, we make dedicated investments in further improving the capabilities of our tools, and we expect a strong return on this investment. For lasers, we currently experience strong and growing demand from customers that serve applications and telecommunications as well. Global data traffic is exponentially growing, driven by the increasing use of Internet services, especially video on demand, cloud services and by the Internet of Things. This translates into demand for lasers as optical signal transmitters, photodiodes as receivers as well as optical amplifiers and filters. They are used on the one hand within data centers, enabling fast interconnect between servers and on the other hand in the field across the optical datacom networks. The strength of our technology mentioned before also applies to this segment. Another market with strong orders in 2018 is the area of specialty LED. Extron has a strong position in the area of red, orange, yellow LED, we call it ROI, but then are used for large area displays such as in airports or shopping malls and gradually also in automotive backlighting. This brings me to the display segment on slide 9. For displays of small to medium size, the Xfron Group has 2 fundamentally different next generation technologies in the pipeline. On the one hand, our subsidiary company, Arpizon, is working on OLED technology. On the other hand, customers use our tools to develop LED technology. The market for OLED displays has been mostly driven by the use in mobile phones in recent years. For the coming years, a further increase in the use of OLED displays in mobile and increasingly by use in TV sets is expected. An additional driver could be the emergence of foldable displays. Market researchers expect the OLED industry's revenue to more than triple in the time frame from 2016 to 2021 to approximately US50 $1,000,000,000 As mentioned by Bernd earlier in this call, a generation 2 OLED system of our subsidiary Apeeva will soon be installed at a customer's facility in order to qualify the technology for mass production. In parallel, we see several customers use our MOCVD tool for development of micro ADD technology. Some TV makers have made announcements of first products at Consumer Electronics Show this year. For MicroLED, it is expected that a very high uniformity across the wafer and precise layer control is needed, again, a feature offered in the required precision by Extron MOCVD tool. While OLED technology is mature and in volume production already today, the microLED market is still in an early phase. We get different feedback from customers on the timing of volume ramp. Some claim start of mass production as early as in 2 to 3 years. Others expect up to 10 years until true volume. I will only briefly touch the area of power semiconductors as we discussed this in quite some detail in the last earnings call. We see gradual pickup in the demand for tools in the areas of Gallium Nitride based power semiconductors as first customers ramp production after a successful R and D and qualification phase at their customers. The market for silicon carbide based power semiconductors is moving towards volume ramp with silicon carbide MOSFET being used in a number of first high volume applications such as EV charging stations and first EV models. Extron comes from a rather low market share, as mentioned in the last call in this segment, but we get positive customer feedback on the new silicon carbide tool we are currently developing. In addition to the MOCVD and OVPD product line, we are developing technologies for the production of graphene, carbon nanotubes and carbon nanowires as part of innovation project. These materials promising interesting future potential in a variety of applications, be it in battery or in display application. Thus, in summary, we see multiple intangible growth opportunities in the markets we are addressing. Reason for that is that our equipment enables the development and manufacture of key components for optical data communications for cloud computing for the Internet of Things, next generation fast mobile networks such as 5 gs data communication next generation OLED or micro LED displays highly efficient energy conversion and electromobility as well as for 3 d sensing in smartphones, cars and other areas. Due to our proven ability to develop and market innovative enabling deposition equipment, we continue to believe in the positive outlook for Xtron and its Before we open the Q and A session, I will give you an overview on what we expect for 2018 on Slide 10. Based on our current corporate structure and estimate of the order situation in our budget rate of U. S. Dollar to the euro of 1.20, we expect to keep both revenues and total orders in the range between €230,000,000 260,000 in 20.18. Please note that this represents a growth between 20% 35% based on the EUR 191,000,000 revenue of the continued business in 2017, excluding the revenues of the ALD CBD product line, which was sold. On the profitability side and mainly due to the larger share of higher margin products, as mentioned before, we expect to achieve a gross margin between 30 5% 40% and an EBIT of 5% to 10% of the revenues in 2018. Furthermore, we expect to achieve a positive operational cash flow in 2018. However, we expect the cash flow to be lower compared to 2017 due to the positive effects from the sale of the ALD CBD product line in the amount of €51,000,000 which were included in the cash flow of the previous year. In addition to that, cash flow in 2018 will be affected by liabilities towards the parties of the ALD CBD business in the amount of EUR 12,000,000 which we received in 2017 and which will be paid in full during 2018. These expectations for 2018 are based on full consideration of the results of the Exon subsidiary, Apeva, with all necessary investments to further develop the OLED activity. This 2018 growth will be fueled by capacity requirements of our customers to satisfy demand on 3 d sensing for mobile and increasingly automotive applications as well as optical data communication. Beyond 2018, we are looking at the growing usage of widebandgap materials, silicon carbide and gallium nitride in power components, particularly in electric vehicles as a major growth driver. These opportunities require investment in core development now. Finally, let me thank you, the shareholders, for your continuing support as well as the excellent employees and the Supervisory Board for their hard work over the last 12 months. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes our 20 17 annual results presentation, and thank you for your attention. We are now available to answer your questions. Guido? Thank you, Bjorn, Felix and Charles. Operator, we'll now take the questions, please. The first question comes from Mr. Simpson. Mr. Simpson, you have the word. Yes. Hello. Thanks for letting me on. Maybe just a couple of clarification questions for me actually. Just looking at that silicon carbide development that you're doing, is there anything you can give us as far as time line and design advantages that Acstrand would have into that space? And whether or not you can say that this is definitively for automotive end markets or if it's got wider appeal? Yes. Thank you for the question. So we expect the 1st R and D tool by the end of 2018, 1st volume shipment early or middle 2019. This tool will target the broad silicon carbide market, both for industrial application and also for automotive application. Okay. So you're straddling both autos and industrial. Yes. Sorry. So maybe if I step back a little bit and look at the general landscape for 3.5 compounds, if you look across the semiconductor space, there's a crowding R and D starting to happen. We know Cree is doubling investments. ST are pushing into use of GaN in automotive, even MACOM look at power amplifiers for GaN on silicon. And I wondered if from your perspective, maybe two questions I've got here. What is it that keeps you ahead of others as we move into 35 compounds on silicon? And whether you think there is a process, maybe a silver bullet process in the market that will be a sort of winner takes all? I mean, who do you think or where do you think that sort of layering on silicon could actually be advantage to your customers? Yes. So two questions. What keeps us ahead and what is the silver bullet, yes? So let me go to the first question first. So what keeps us ahead? Essentially, the power the compound power semiconductor market, both gallium nitride and silicon carbide, has to be looked upon by subsegment, yes? So we cannot just look at the overall, but for example, gallium nitride falls into 3, 4 different market segments. We believe that we have a very promising we have very good tools already today in the marketplace for some of these markets. And for those markets where we are not ahead, we are have an accordant development pipeline. So we look at summary second by segment and make sure we have a winning value proposition for each sub segment. To your second question, whether there is the one silver bullet, I would say no, there isn't because this market falls in so many sub segments that have to be addressed individually and that have to be understood in their specific requirements. And this is our approach. Great. So it's different bullets for different sub segments basically? Correct. The next question comes from Mr. Schupp. Mr. Schupp, you have the word. Yes, good afternoon, everyone. Two questions, please. First of all, quite a few of your customers have announced over the last 3 to 6 months quite substantial plans to expand CapEx, particularly for the 3 d sensing topic for potentially both of the major consumer electronics companies ultimately. Just wondering, it's not really reflected or how far is this reflected in your Q4 orders already? And how are you looking at the first half? I guess the precise question would be, are you, to some extent, building a gray order book? Is there a potential to kind of delay as much as you can orders in order to stretch out the lead times somewhat? And the second question would be just on guidance. If I take your guidance slide out of your results presentation, you show that the order backlog is already above €100,000,000 as the end of last year. You have service revenue of up to $45,000,000 for the year. In other words, if you back out this safe revenue of $150,000,000 for the year, it implies that assuming you get orders off for the 1st 8 months that you can still invoice this year, implies about €15,000,000 or so of order impact for quarter. Is that correct here? Mr. Schupp, I think we lost you. Are you hearing us? I think we lost the signal. We may switch or let me answer the questions as long I have And what is the pattern between Q4 and years to come? I think we see both. We see we have part of the orders in Q4 definitely being for 3 sensing applications, but we also expect certain capacity ramps come in the first half of twenty eighteen. So it's in both. And regarding our guidance, first of all, I think Mr. Schuck mentioned that we may be able to invoice orders we received for the 1st 8 months. We have to anticipate that order cycle times are increasing because of the heated semiconductor market and the supply chain. So in our guidance, we basically assumed that we take basically the first the orders we take in the first half that they recognized as revenue in the full year was the assumption basically we took here. And I think when we look at the guidance, you see this is we're assuming a continued business size, what we experienced in the second half of year twenty seventeen. Okay. Thank you very much. At the moment, we have no questions. If you have any questions, And we have a question from Mr. Holfelder. Mr. Holfelder, you have the word. Yes. Thank you. You mentioned R and D in the coming months. So can you provide an R and D budget, rough guidance for 2018? I think we've guided it's Charles here. I think we've guided for the EBIT and we've guided for the gross margin. And so the OpEx logically is around 30% in between that, which is around €75,000,000 We don't expect much change in the level of SG and A. And therefore, the difference from the similar level of SG and A this year to next year is the R and D spend. The reason for the increase is simply that we've got a machine which will be evaluated over a period of time, and we have to expense it over that period. And as I mentioned, Mr. Olfeder, that we assume for the entire year the full cost of the OLED development and the OLED daughter, AVEVA, to be consolidated in our number. Yes. And in terms of the time horizon for the OLED qualification for mass production, what's when do you expect to have a decision? So we currently have a Gen 2 OLED deposition system, which is being built up at the site in Asia. The system is up and running. We are currently doing some technical fine tuning close collaboration with our customers. If that is successful, then the tool will be moved into our customers' R and D fab for qualification. And this moving into the fab we expect into Q2. Okay. Got it. And one question on silicon carbide. You mentioned the new tool. Can you talk about what will differentiate the tool? Is it a throughput issue that you want to differentiate by throughput and at the end of the day by costs? But what is your strategy here? Yes. So we are our tools are already today very strong in terms of uniformity in the layer and the thickness and precision. So this box, this requirement of our customers, we already fulfill today. And what we are today missing is the throughput topic. And with the new development, this gap is being addressed. And we expect that the new tool moves in terms of throughput us in the leadership position in the competitive environment. And first, sales, you expect during 2019 related to the new tool? Correct. Okay. And last question, just on your Octoelectronics business. I mean, you had you announced during the past 2 years very nice orders also related to 3 d sensing VCSEL suppliers. On the other hand, your sales have been relatively stable, for example, 2017 compared to 2015. Was some of the, let's say, 3 d sensing related VCSEL business offset by the weakness we've seen over the past, let's say, 12 months in the Datacom Telecom area? And now you have pretty much a perfect scenario where Datacom Telecom is coming back and at the same time, you're also seeing 3 d sensing? I wouldn't explain it like that. I think the 3 d sensing showing some significant volume we only experienced since 2017 really. And while the Datacom Telecom business is a relatively stable business we had all over the years. And basically, you can say on the stable demand we had, let's say, for the last 2, 1 or 3 years on telecom, this 3 d sensing comes on top. Okay. Thank you. The next question comes from Mr. Tazo. Mr. Tazo, you have the word. Yes. Very sorry, Tazo. Thank you for taking my questions. The first one would be around the EBIT guidance. You already touched the topic. But nevertheless, if I look at your gross margin guidance, it's really very strong. But then the EBIT margin is, yes, implies at the midpoint roughly €70,000,000 OpEx yes, €73,000,000 OpEx. That looks quite high if I look back at your previous communication where we were talking about €40,000,000 to €50,000,000 or yes. So I was wondering if there are new elements in the OpEx? In the R and D spend in 2018, we will, as I said before, have to expense the Gen 2 demonstrator, which we are in the process of getting qualified. And that we expensed in full during 2018. That's the major change in the R and D compared with 2017's continuing R and D. That and the additional spend on power electronics development. May I clarify here in addition, Mr. Tal. The numbers you mentioned is basically excluding the cost for the OLEDs. As we mentioned, we are in continuous discussion with some joint venture planning for our APEVA daughter company. And as we do not know exactly how the result is going to be, we decided to guide with the full cost for the OLED product line. And I think this was the cleanest way we thought to present. No. Well understood. I didn't have this expensed on Gen 2 tools, so that's okay. On the OLED part, I mean, there were recently a lot of rumors from Samsung what is going to happen to their OLED business. There are some push outs in the CapEx plan. I think particularly for the Fab 5, what they have, which is in this OLED space. How do you read this topic? How you yes, what's your take on that? Yes. So of course, we cannot comment on the decisions by any player in the industry. You just mentioned a big player here. But we overall see that there still is a very high demand, very strong demand, and that's the signals we get regardless of any short term movement. Yes. Okay. Then on the VCSEL part of the business, from your previous call, what I understood is your market share is close to 100% or something. Vico, I think they introduced a new tool generation for the VCSEL market. How do you see them, there too versus yours? Is it yes, it's their part rather for Datacom, etcetera, and you're more stronger into in the 3 d sensing? Or is that any threat to you? Certainly, we believe that our tool today is the leading tool. And I'm not prepared and not able to say exactly the market share. But I think we are I think we can say we have the leading tool in both in 3 d sensing and in telecomdatacom. And there's always competition and we always welcome competition. And there ever been competition and we take competition always very serious. But today, all we can say is that we believe we have the tool of record in these markets. Okay. And the final one, I don't know if you are willing to share that, but in your total tool shipments in 2017, how many tools were related to silicon carbide? Small number, 2, 3, 4, something in that order. Don't have the incorrect numbers here. But we mentioned before that zinc and carbide, we come from a low market share, and we want to grow based on the new developments, which we discussed earlier. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much and congratulations to the strong numbers. Thank you. The next question comes from Mr. Bernstein. Please state your question. Hi, thanks for taking my questions. I have 2. One is just on the datacom market and ramp over the next couple of years. I guess in prior years, the metro and long haul markets have taken on the order of 300,000 lasers or so. And now that we're talking about replacing essentially Ethernet NIC cards with fiber optics, we're talking about 1,000,000. Is that your understanding? And are we expecting a ramp in VCSEL production to meet that? Well, I must admit that I'm not the expert in the end device. And what we're seeing definitely is that the mid haul and short haul are now getting usage of laser devices, particularly in this big cloud computing, cloud centers. And this is a driver of our customers to order more tools. Okay. And then could you just talk about large customers, top 10 customers, etcetera, any new ones in 2017? How you expect things to maybe change in 2018? What percentage the top 10 customers were for the year? Well, I believe the top 10 customers have not been changed over the recent years. And honestly, I do not also expect them to change in 2018 and forward. I think the in particular, in the optoelectronic area, I think the battlefield is quite clear. And I think it's all the known suspects you can think of. And how big as a percent were your top 10 customers in 2017? I would say it's typically top 10. It's typically in the 60% to 70% range. Great. Thanks so much. The next question comes from Mr. Schalmann. Mr. Schalmann, please state your question. Maybe that's me, Hamed Schalman, Alberk. First question is on OLEDs. More than one company is putting 1,000,000 or 1,000,000 of dollars into inkjet printing and betting on that technology. So maybe you can elaborate on how you're seeing that in comparison to your OVPD technology maybe for both applications, smartphones and large area TV displays? So we believe that also the OLED market will fall into different subsegments. The inkjet printing has a benefit when it's not about fine pixels, but very, very large screens where high resolution is not needed, yes, yes, or layers where no pixelation at all is needed. So there is likely to be a coexistence of different technologies in the marketplace. Yes? And how exactly that game will play out, the future will show. Okay. So high resolution smartphones would probably rather rely on vacuum deposition instead of Exactly, yes. For high resolutions, the inkjet printing, we would not expect to give the right the required resolution in terms of pixel density for very large TV screens that can be a different topic. Yes. Okay. And then secondly, maybe you can comment on your working capital and how that might develop going forward. You came from pretty high working capital level, both in inventories and receivables at the end of 'sixteen, both reduced substantially to a pretty low level in 2017 from a working capital to sales ratio of below 10%. So maybe you can give us some guidance what should we expect in Ed model in 2018, 2019? I think the fall in receivables, in particular between 2016 2017, was because a lot of the sales in Q4 twenty 16 were bunched in December. And that was, I think, around onethree of the year's sales were made in 1 month of December. So that was unusual. And don't forget, during the year, we've sold the ALD CVD activity, which is another reason why inventories and receivables and working capital requirements have fallen during the year. So the levels we've got at the moment where the inventory turns are something just under 4, the receivables are quite low in terms of days sales outstanding. I think it's 30 something. They look to me to be fairly normal for the MOCVD business because that business has advanced payments. So I don't expect any substantial change there apart from the volume effects of having a bigger business. For the OLED activity in the future, if that gets production orders, then that's a different question, and we'll have to see that when we get those orders. Yes, sure. Okay, thanks. Then there are no further questions anymore. With this, we conclude our results conference call for today. You know where to find us if you have any questions left. And we would welcome you again to our next conference call in Q1 at the end of April. Thank you very much, and have a good day.