Morning, everyone. Thank you, Christian, for being with us this morning.
Thank you, Giulia.
Christian Sewing, Chief Executive Officer of Deutsche Bank. I have lots of questions to ask you, but let's start with a polling question for the audience first. If it comes up. Yes. What ROTE do you think Deutsche Bank will be able to achieve by 2028? Below 10%-11%, 12%-13%, or above 13%. 12%-13%. Okay, so some convincing to do on the above 13%.
Well, we are used to beat and raise, and therefore, I think nobody thought that we can achieve the 10 last year. Look, what I see from our investor day from last year, November, we were talking about tailwinds for 2028. I'm for various reasons even more confident that we can achieve it. Let me beat and raise. I'm happy that we will beat that one.
Excellent. Of course, we will discuss Deutsche Bank, but first I need to ask you about the news of yesterday. UniCredit looking to increase the stake in Commerzbank. How does this impact Deutsche Bank, if at all?
Yeah, I think not really. Look, Giulia, we are always thinking obviously in scenarios and I don't want to comment now on particular competitors and you have all the main banks in the room today and tomorrow. Obviously we as a bank and in particular in our home market, we need to think in scenarios and that was certainly a scenario which we had on our mind. I think we made a very clear statement in the IDD in November that we see real growth potential in Germany. 2 out of the EUR 5 billion of revenue growth is supposed to come out of Germany. I think we are very well-placed. We are in many segments a clear market leader, and that also means that we have the capacity to add new clients.
We are prepared for that. I do think if something like that is happening, and I don't know that, then, you always need to be in the position to be prepared to sort of say benefit from it, get clients, and that's what we are. We changed the way we have set up the corporate bank in Germany. We have a new leadership there. I'm very happy with that. I think, with whatever plays out, we will benefit from it.
Thanks. If I go to geopolitics now, there is a lot happening. On one hand, we have a war in Iran. On the other side, Europe is trying to do something to improve its competitiveness, and Germany is at the heart of this really. How does Deutsche Bank stand to benefit or be impacted by these geopolitical developments?
Yeah, certainly. I mean, the last two weeks added volatility and also to a certain extent, uncertainty. I mean, also when it comes to my home country, energy prices is something which is obviously very critical for the German industry. It's not only the fact of energy prices, it's just the overall general uncertainty which is then placed because of the conflict. Now, none of us here in the room have an idea how it plays out, but in my view, this uncertainty and the volatility for the coming weeks is part of the game. On the other hand, to be honest, you know, you have heard me last year already at this conference.
Yeah.
I was actually quite positive about the initial announcement of the German government. At that point in time, we discussed the adjustments to the debt brake.
Mm-hmm.
We discussed the reforms. Yes, you wish always for more, and I think Germany actually needs to do more, and we need to get quicker in implementation. If I look back over the last 12 months, I think this government actually did quite a lot. You see now in various areas already the first green shoots. Obviously in the area of defense, we can see it in the corporate bank. We can in particular see it in the advisory business if we think about mandates like TKMS and others. Therefore, I would say Germany actually did the right thing. Now of course, this war and that volatility may be a little bit of a setback, but it doesn't actually really change my long-term view when it comes to growth rates in Germany.
You know, I think we have been also very clear, Giulia, that in November at our IDD, we were talking about the growth rates of Germany.
Mm-hmm.
We said that our own research thought that Germany is growing at 1.5%. We actually had a much lower growth rate as an assumption in our plan. That proves to be right. Therefore, also, you know, with the impact of the war now, I have actually no reason to adjust any of my plans in terms of revenues, in terms of investments, because I do believe that we planned conservatively. Hence, yes, we obviously stay close to the issues, but at the end of the day, all of that, what happens in Ukraine, we are not talking about Russia and Ukraine anymore, but that is an ongoing war. We have obviously a boiling situation and a development in the AI segment.
One thing is clear, all clients in this time and in such an environment. They need more advice, they need more risk management. What we clearly see day by day, they want to have a European alternative to the U.S. banks when it comes to global banking. Therefore, look, you need to manage carefully, you need to manage cautiously. The presence of Deutsche Bank and the global house bank strategy we have is, so to say, very well designed actually for the situation we are experiencing at this moment. Therefore, I would say that the situation around the world is not changing our outlook. We have been, in my view, cautious for 2026 and 2027 when it comes to growth rates. Therefore, I don't see any adjustments.
I talked to you and I said already when I saw the polling that I think many of the other items where we talked about tailwind in November, AI deployment, cross-collaboration, actually also further movements in Europe when it comes to level playing field, simplification of routes, all that actually looks better than in November. Therefore, despite all the volatility, I remain positive and my plan is the plan. I think there is even upside to it.
Fantastic. Thank you. If I follow up on something you said, you know, European simplification, that's the best we can hope for in Europe. In the meantime, the U.S. is deregulating and freeing up several billion of capital for American banks. How does this position Deutsche Bank? Are you less able to compete because of that? Or what do you see on the back of, you know, this different trend in deregulation versus simplification?
Look, also there, I think nothing over the last four, six or eight weeks or the announcements last week and then potentially what we hear on Thursday is changing my view. We know that in which direction the U.S. was going. We see obviously what the U.K. is doing, and therefore, I think we are engaging very closely with the European Union, with the Commission. I know that Commissioner Maria Luís Albuquerque is speaking at 11 o'clock. I think we have a constructive exchange. We have an open discussion with the ECB. Of course, we want to have a level playing field when it comes to regulations.
I can see that with the way we discuss banking packages, whether it's market integration, whether it's securitization, I think both packages will be done end of May or June, to be honest.
Okay.
I think there is movement in that. The way we can discuss with officials, when it comes to FRTB, delay or what are we doing about it. I think the focus and also the willingness of the politicians to listen and talk to us and think about, is there a disadvantage for European banks? Do we need to do something? This willingness is much higher than in the years before. Now, can I already tell you the outcome? No, I can't. I can clearly see that there is a lot of constructive discussions and that there is a lot of engagement, Giulia, on the level of European CEOs actually talking to the commission, talking to the ECB. My item, which I always want to stress, we can talk about simplification.
We can talk about that where I think let's freeze the rules right now. There is no need when you look at the profitability of the European banks, also the sustainability of this profitability. Don't go for higher capital, but freeze it right now. I mean, that would be the first signal, which is positive. I really do think that in this regard, we have a much more open ear from the European Commission and the ECB than before. My real ask is simply watch at the first line of defense. What I mean by that is the sustainable earnings generation of European banks. This is what we need to take into account when we talk about regulation.
Because five or six years ago, I understand that there was a bigger focus on capital and liquidity. Now the profit generation and.
Mm-hmm.
The level of profitability of each and every bank in Europe is at a completely different scale than before. If this is mentally taken into account, and if we can move the mentality in Europe from not only stability, which is always the number one, but also to provide competitiveness, then I think we are a real step ahead. In this regard, we really have good and constructive discussions, and therefore I'm positive that we see the one or the other change.
Yes. That's a very positive comment. I wasn't expecting you to say securitization and market integration package done by May. Let's hope that comes. AI is a big topic, of course. It went from being incredibly positive, as you highlighted, at the IDD to, wow, AI is taking over the world, a massive disruption to software, maybe, other business models. When you lend to corporates that are potentially impacted by AI, be it software, be it business services, anything else, how do you assess this disruption risk?
I'm glad you're asking that because I think it's one of the most critical questions you have, in particular if you have a lending book like we have of almost EUR 500 billion, and you know my past as chief credit officer of this bank.
Yes.
Therefore it is a question which we are dealing with and which we have dealt with for, to be honest, the last 12 months. I'm always pressing my people. I want you to understand the business model of your client, the way AI is actually changing it, and now it comes who are, so to say, the winners and the laggards in each and every industry. I think I said it in one of these conferences before. I do believe that in this regard, Deutsche Bank has a very positive track record. We changed the way we are doing credit analysis in 1998. We changed it from a single client review to an industry analysis.
If you look actually how we cluster our exposures, how we look at exposures, not only from a single counterparty review, but to a real industry and trend analysis, then I do believe that we have actually an advantage in spotting weaknesses or strengths in those industries a bit earlier. That shows me also how we size exposures. That shows me also what our risk appetite for different industries is, and I'm sure we are coming later to that, but we have been very transparent also last week in telling the world how much we have for technology and so on. The most important is that the first line of defense, i.e. the front office people, but also the second line of defense, the credit risk management people, are close to the management and are close to the underlying industries.
The track record which we have shown and also the discussion level we have when it comes to AI, that we can say per sector in the technology where we rather deem people to be the winners or people being more under pressure, is actually from a content level, very, very deep. Based on that, we are setting our limits, we are setting our long-term exposure strategies. Hence, I'm quite comfortable that we are actually or that we have a good view who are those people who are winning and where should we be a bit more cautious. That we have done. Forget about AI now for a second. That we have done for industries like automotives, auto suppliers, machinery, in all kind of other industries for the last 25 years.
If you now look at the loan loss provision level of Deutsche Bank through the cycle across these segments, we were usually superior to the industry. Therefore, I think this industry focus and having specialists for each and every industry in credit risk management is a real advantage. Therefore, I'm quite positive actually that we will also go through this one.
Thank you. Very clear answer. Let's then move on to revenues. During Q4 results, I think the guidance was for revenues to be flat year-on-year in Q1, although you flagged, you know, a very good start to the year and potentially upside if it continued but was too early in the quarter to really be confident. Now we are towards the end of the quarter, how has that trend continued or changed?
Well, look, including today, we still have 11 trading days to go. You know, in such an environment as we are right now, you always need to, in my view, manage day by day and you should be cautious and conservative. Overall, I would like to confirm that what we said. I see revenues actually flattish year-over-year. Now, the nice thing is, that speaks to the strategy which we have given ourselves in November, that the revenue mix is moving into the right direction. What do I mean by that? We have a very nice development in asset management and the private bank. Really glad that this is as we planned it, not only in November, but the years before.
Claudio and Stefan doing superb job in actually moving their business into the right direction year-on-year increases. That is obviously from a sustainability, from a quality point of view, from a stability point of view, a really nice direction. In the investment bank, I think we are approximately flat year-over-year. Now, the composition of revenues will be a little bit different, to be honest, Giulia. I see actually an increase on the IBCM side, potentially a little bit lower on the trading side. But you need to take into account actually that we are actually in this regard suffering from the FX development.
No, from the I mean, the FX development from last year to now for a European bank being quite active also in the U.S. is obviously so to say a burden. The underlying from a market share, if I adjust it for FX, honestly, we are rising in the trading business. I'm really happy with what Ram is doing, and we had a super Q1 in 2025. Last but not least, if I look at all and also the development in the corporate bank, all that is compensating a bit the C&O revenues, because C&O revenues last year were higher than it will be in Q1. That means from a quality point of view, the Q1 2026 revenues are actually stronger than 2025.
Overall flattish, but to be honest, I'm really happy with the composition and therefore you need to look a little bit at the composition, but the composition is positive.
Thank you. If I move away from the quarter and I look a bit longer term, one of the targets is 8% revenue CAGR in the corporate, yeah, in the corporate bank. Exactly. Can you remind us of, you know, the key initiatives that make you confident in this target? Also, when can we see an inflection point? Because for now, actually the trend is quite different in the corporate bank.
Yes and no, because there is not so much an inflection point, Giulia, because even in the year 2025, underlying we grew from a business volume, I think by 5% or 6%. Not yet 8%, I agree, but it was already 5% or 6%. Obviously also there, we had two items which were running a bit against us, and that was on the FX side in 2025. We also had headwinds from the NII. Now, we have deliberately said that Deutsche Bank also from its you know, from our roots, from where we see where we are, Deutsche Bank is very much a corporate bank.
We can actually see with all our investments we have done in our cash management tools, in fee generating businesses, look at what we have now done and where we are onboarding to plan the Miles & More product which we have taken over from another bank for Lufthansa. All that is actually preparing for the next three years. We will see the corporate bank also year-over-year increasing revenues, in particular in the second half of 2026. If I think about the loan book, if I think about what is happening in the defense area in Germany, I talked about green shoots before. I can see what is happening on the investments in the infrastructure. In both areas, we are starting to see the loan growth.
We are also starting to see a nice development, actually on the deposit side. If I look at this, I think the 8% is actually a number which we can achieve. Is it an ambitious plan? Yes, it is ambitious, but the underlying growth which we have seen in 2025, the market share which we have in Germany, actually shows me that we can achieve it. Last but not least, I talked about that, in times of volatility and uncertainty, the risk management advice from corporates to a bank is bigger than ever before. That is something which we see day in, day out. There we actually benefit also from our global presence.
There are hardly any European banks left with a network of almost 60 countries in this world. We can see that we are onboarding new clients in order to actually advise them in this situation. Therefore, I think the 8% is definitely doable, but therefore we need to invest, and that is the reason why we invest in 2026 among others in the corporate bank.
Thank you. If I now talk about the private bank instead. You know, achieving RoTE 8% in 2025 was quite a milestone, but now, you are targeting more than 18% by 2028. What are the key levers that allow for this increase in profitability? Also, if I can squeeze a sub-question in there, how is the competitive landscape looking like? Because everyone is interested in gathering deposits in Germany with Chase, Crédit Agricole. You know, how does that impact your plan?
Look, first of all, as I said before, I think Claudio has done a phenomenal job in turning around the private bank. Nobody actually thought that Deutsche Bank can ever earn money in the private bank. I tell you what we have now achieved is level one, and we need to go to level two and level three. We promised 18% over the medium term, which we will achieve. How do we achieve it is via three measures. Number one, growth in retail bank Germany, in particular in deposits and investment business. In this regard, everything what Germany is doing on the pension side is pure tailwind for us. You have heard about, you know, the private pension scheme for young people.
Mm-hmm.
Even if it's only EUR 10 a month, it doesn't sound a lot, but it sets something in motion that people are thinking about, not only do we get the EUR 10, but what does it mean? What can I do about it? This is actually a huge opportunity for us to talk about investment with our retail clients and not only our existing clients, but the next generation. The focus actually Claudio is putting on that, and that must be digitally enabled and hence we are also putting investments obviously into that, is huge. I think it will be one of the largest growth rates which we'll see the investment business for retail clients in Germany that will go only into one direction. It's number one. At the same time, we are not yet through our cost reduction in retail Germany.
We have an ongoing effort to do that, what everybody knows, in particular branch closures, taking also reducing workforce. We have a clear plan for 2026 and the following years. We are, as I said, investing into technology in order to capture opportunities on the revenue side, but at the same time making sure that every process we are running in retail Germany is front to end. That takes out a three-digit million cost number over the next years, again, simply in the retail business. Retail is really operating leverage pool, increasing the top line, in particular via investment and deposit business, and I come to the competition in a second, but then obviously reducing costs. Second area is actually growth in wealth management and private banking.
You have seen us and heard us in November that we are actually expanding in that business. You have seen also in the public reports that we hired the one or the other people, whether it was in Europe or in Asia. To be honest, all I can see in the first quarter, not only how we ramped that up according to plan in budget with discipline, but if I see the AUM development, it's very nicely. Claudio is doing exactly that in wealth management, what he has done over the last six years, a continuation. Now, with the recovery also, and let's be honest, of the reputation of Deutsche Bank, the way we are seen in Europe as one of the key European wealth managers is a completely different one than before.
Not only in our home country in Germany, but also in other countries like Italy, Spain, Belgium, where we are really gaining momentum. Wealth management is actually a growth story. Also for that we can actually benefit from all the technology developments I was talking about in the retail segment. It's a growth story, but at the same time, taking costs out. Last but not least, everybody in this room knows the story is not only about revenues and actually direct costs, it's also about indirect costs. We have two areas left in this bank where we are not yet on benchmark in terms of costs. That is, run the bank costs in technology where we are coming down and obviously the share for the private bank will go down.
AFC and compliance, Laura has done a super job actually in, you know, remediating our deficiencies. We are almost done with that, and now we are actually tackling the cost line. Now, if those costs are coming down, it's obviously also beneficial for the private bank business. Therefore, you know, my confidence level in the 18% is super high. Couldn't be higher. Actually, I think Claudio can go for more. On the competition, look, if you bank in Germany, I've been doing it now for 37 years. I mean, it's from a competitive point of view, it's a tough market. We, I think, have shown over the last years that we can compete.
We have seen, by the way, Giulia, last year already that we had quite competitive deposit bids from other large European banks.
Yes
Trying to do that in Germany. We on purpose tried actually to compete not with higher rates, but with a digital offer. Again, with the recovery of our reputation, with you know, credibility in Deutsche Bank, we have actually gathered more stable deposits than we thought. Therefore, we have also brought to the market that we want to gain another EUR 50 billion of deposits over the next years. Looking just at the first two months in the year, I'm quite positive that we can achieve that despite all the competition coming to Germany. You know, with the Germans, a brand name helps a lot.
Great. I'll open it up to the room in a moment, but I just want to ask you a couple more. You touched a lot on costs there, and 2026 is gonna be an investment year for Deutsche Bank. Outside in, what milestone, what achievements should we track, you know, to monitor these investments? What will this mean overall for your cost base in 2026?
Well, first of all, despite an investment year, let me be clear. Under this leadership, this bank will not lose cost discipline.
Mm.
Cost discipline is key for Deutsche Bank, but that doesn't mean that you don't invest. That's again what I can see in the first two months. I'm very happy with the cost discipline. Nevertheless we are saying in order to have a long-term journey, in order to bring us to a cost income ratio below 60%, we need to invest into technology. We also want to invest into people in order to grow, as I just outlined for the corporate bank or for wealth management, but also in parts of the IBCM business. Cost management at its core remains at the heart of Deutsche Bank. The second one where you should measure us against also this year, despite being an investment year, we will have a positive operating leverage.
We will have a stronger RoTE than in 2025. It's not only about an investment year. We need to show progress on our trajectory in 2028. We said, we're very open that we do believe that the real benefit of these investments is shown in 2027 and 2028. 2026 will be a year where year-over-year we will improve. Therefore, I think, you know, these two items that cost management in itself is an item which we watch with hawk eyes and then the year-over-year improvement. We have [with Roger] somebody who is very close to the individual investments. In our portfolio review meetings, which we are doing with the businesses, we see actually where the investments go, and we track then the milestones to these investments.
In case that wouldn't result in the direction which we would like to see, I think there is sufficient flexibility.
Mm.
To actually adjust the course. Now, we don't need for the time being because it goes into the right direction, but don't underestimate also our flexibility to act.
Thank you. Now my last question before I open it to the audience on cost of risk. You've guided for cost of risk to trend downwards 36 basis points in 2025 towards 30 basis points. US CRE remains challenged and also you have some exposure to private credit. What can you tell us to reassure, you know, investors that cost of risk is not gonna see a spike?
Well, first of all, we have also shown in a challenging year from a risk point of view in 2025, that we reduced our cost of risk as we actually forecasted it to the market. Hopefully there is also credibility and also a bit of track record. Number two, if you look into the underlying segments, yes, commercial real estate is something in the aftermath, to be honest, where we had too high loan loss provisions and we are all not happy with that. We clearly can see that we have seen the peak and it will go down. Is it completely normalized in 2026? No, but it will be far less than in 2025.
We have seen the worst in that. Again, not full normalization, but we have seen the peak. On private credit, to be honest, Giulia, on purpose, we went out with our disclosure last year. Last week, not last year.
Yeah.
Last year we also gave a certain disclosure. We feel comfortable with that exposure. We have done private credit. The long discussion with, you know, risk management, but also with Ram Nayak last week again. We have done private credit for more than a decade.
Mm-hmm.
I think we are a very solid underwriter in that business. We are working with clear risk management underwriting parameters. That means diversification of the underlying asset pool, maximum advance rates or loan to value. We look obviously, so to say, at the sponsors. We look actually that we don't have an over-concentration into certain asset class. We have more than 90% investment grade. We have a documentation which allows actually if we come too close to a potential LTV cap, that we are asking for more collateral that we can act. All this, Giulia, resulted in more than 10 years, we haven't lost one cent in private credit. I don't believe, by the way, that the noise on private credit will go away short term. I think it's a topic. The real differentiation is who is underwriting and what are your underwriting criteria.
Therefore, I think we have a very strong track record. I look at the portfolio, the transparency we have at the portfolio, and therefore, I don't think that it is for us a particular risk. We need to watch it. We need to be close to it. We should never, ever change our strict underwriting criteria. If we do this, I don't think that this is something which will result in a spike of loan dispersion. Hence, overall, despite the volatility in this world, despite the uncertainty we have, we do believe that 2026, we still have slightly less loan loss provisions than 2025, and that we achieve the 30 basis points over time as we indicated.
Thank you. Let me see if the audience has. Yes, we have a question here on the second.
Thank you very much. Good morning, and thank you very much for this presentation. Can you please update us on your large legacy and outstanding litigations and, the investigation ongoing around the potential shortcomings in AML as well?
Yeah. Look, whenever we have pending investigations, I hope that you understand that I cannot really comment on that, because that is an issue now, so to say, between the official stakeholders, like a prosecutor and the bank. I can tell you that this bank has significantly invested into remediating our KYC, AML, AFC processes. Therefore, I was just very open and says, "Look, we have done a lot of remediation." Now it's actually all about making sure that we have very efficient process, that we invest more in technology there in order to make it also from a cost income ratio, a more efficient place. But I would say we have come a long, long way. Without going into the details, a lot what you are referring to is actually about legacy. But I can't say more.
At this point in time, I don't expect that this is something which is of material impact to the bank. This is. I can't say more to that. On the overall litigation side, again, you know, if I look at the litigation pipeline I inherited in 2018 and I look at it right now, I think the bank is in a much better place. We have worked it down. We have seen in 2025 a year with particularly low litigation costs. I know that last week when we did our outlook, so to say, for 2026, there was some nervousness because, you know, we said that it's larger, and I know James von Moltke would be now correct-
Significantly higher.
Potentially significantly higher because of.
More than 10%
the percentage point.
Yes.
look, please have a look from which base we are coming. If you are on a very low base, and that was particularly low in 2020.
Mm.
5%, then 10%, to be honest, is not a lot, right? Now people may get the impression, wow, there will be a spike. I wouldn't call it a spike. We will have normalized the litigation costs, I think, in 2026. There are one or two items, which hopefully we can bring to a close. By the way, there are also items where we expect actually to win a bigger case. Now whether this is in 2026 or 2027, I don't know. It depends on the courts. Overall, I would say if you compare today's litigation pipeline of Deutsche Bank to what we used to have before, if you look at the underlying concentration risk, it's a much better place than before. Is this a bank where you have no litigation costs? No. Will never happen.
Is this a bank where we have litigation costs which are so to say, in a on a level where it doesn't really turn an annual net income number? I think this is where we get, and therefore I'm comfortable where we sit, and we try to bring the last pending items home now.
Let me see if we have other questions from the room. Yes. Yang.
Good morning. Thank you. Could I ask you to talk about resource allocation through the lens of RWA growth? There was some uncertainty about the comments you made in the annual report, so maybe help us understand that, but also more broadly, the business mix implications of where that incremental RWA growth should be going and why.
Sure. I'm glad you're asking this question because also there we potentially had some questions from last week. Number one, to be honest, always watch the exit rate for 2025. From the exit rate we are then obviously giving the outlook. It's true that 2025 exit rate on RWA was lower than we expected, in particular in the corporate loan book. Therefore, you know, when we think about growth in RWA going forward, number one, we are not changing our outlook overall on RWA. If you start from a lower exit and you still think that the growth is now coming in 2026 and 2027, then you obviously have a higher percentage growth. That's all. We are not changing our capital plan.
We are also not moving more into, you know what, just to put it here, into private credit or increasing our exposure there. It's actually in particular Corporate Banking where we see real opportunities. We see some opportunities, to be very honest, in the Wealth Management lending areas where we can do better. That there are the one or the other opportunities also in the Investment Bank, but the focus is really on the Corporate Bank. Therefore, Giulia's question was right. Are you still believing in the 8% growth, so to say, for the Corporate Bank? Yes, we do, because we can see now, despite Iran, despite the uncertainty that corporate Germany slowly but steadily is coming back and that we see investments in there, actually, we want to be part of that.
No change to our capital outlook, capital guidance, nothing at all, but the exit point in 2025 was lower and therefore a higher percentage rate.
Great. Do we have other questions from the room? I think I see a hand. Yes.
Thank you. Two questions on my side. First on private credit. Is it possible to perhaps bringing us more color about the off-balance sheet exposure because you gave the EUR 26 billion, which is on balance sheet on my understanding. Also, to have some color about sectoral exposure on which is behind the ABS exposure you have. The second question is, I'm curious to know how would you rank several risk in terms of level looking for geopolitics, software, private credit, and do you see that as a systemic risk for banks? Thank you.
Thank you. On number one, I disappoint you because I think we were quite open and disclosed because we are confident in the number, our number. Let others do their job now. We are not giving even further details. I think we have given a lot. I just told you about the diversification. I told you about the investment-grade part in that business. I told you about our loan-to-value ratio. I think we are below 60% actually in that business. There is a lot of disclosure out, which hopefully makes you confident number one. That disclosure, I wanna put it here, was a signal of strength. That's why we did it. Number two, risks.
I don't think that private credit, as I said before, is a systemic risk, but I'm also not saying that the noise level will end quickly. It really depends how your underwriting standards are, and therefore, I think private credit will be with us for the next foreseeable future. At the end of the day, it depends the way you underwrite. Geopolitical risk, of course, is tied to volatility. Volatility is obviously, in particular for us as an investment bank with our trading arm, is also a real opportunity if you handle it right. I think there is one risk which we shouldn't underestimate, and we are not talking a lot about that, and that is cyber.
I think in these days, and in particular, if geopolitical risk are increasing, we should have a real good handle on that. Therefore, you know, when we from a management board point of view are talking risks, we have a good degree of our time actually spent on cyber risk and what else we could do. We have invested significantly. I think we have fantastic people are working on that. It's certainly something which should not be underestimated. When geopolitical risks are high, usually cyber risk are also increasing, and that's something which is clearly on my mind.
Yes. We have another question, I think. Well, we have two. Well, let's take the gentleman over there who hasn't asked a question before.
Hi there. Just sort of linking Savings and Investments Union to the private credit discussion. I guess I'm just thinking about, you know, people are worried about the disintermediation that happened, you know, who's carrying the risk, also the relationship between banks and the non-banks that have been doing the lending. Now that we're thinking about what we're going to build in Europe with the Savings and Investments Union, you know, were there mistakes made in how the U.S. set up the private credit system? Are there additional guardrails that need to be established to make a safer system as we think about how we build it in the case of Europe? Thank you.
Well, to be honest, I think it would be quite arrogant if I'm now saying there were mistakes done, because if I look at the overall capital markets in the U.S., they are far superior to what we see in Europe. I think Europe should learn from the U.S. I think the first step in order to have a viable Savings and Investments Union is actually not only that we need progress, and I'm sure Mrs. Albuquerque will talk about that we need that much needed progress in Europe. The most important for viable Savings and Investments Union is something completely different. It's the domestic capital markets in each and every country. We need a different pension system. That's why we from the banks are so much.
I know that [Fabrizio Campelli] is later here. [Fabrizio Campelli] and I are really asking and recommending again and again, we need a pension system change in Germany. If we achieve that is the basis actually for capital markets. Then in the next step, obviously, you connect these capital markets. I think get your domestic pension in order. If you do this halfway, so to say, of a viable Capital Markets Union is already done. Therefore, I rather talk about that than thinking about what others may have done or could have done better. In this regard, the US is ahead of us. If we work on our pension system, I think we can actually close the gap quite significantly.
Yes. We have also written a lot on the need for pension to develop the capital market. With that, Christian, thank you very much.
Thank you.
For having me today.