Hello, and welcome to the first ever Conference of the People powered by PUMA. Now, my name is not the brown one from S Club 7. I'm not that grime MC whose name you can't quite remember. My name is Reggie Yates. I'm a writer and a director and a broadcaster from literally just up the road. East London in the house, anyone? That was pathetic and kind of embarrassing. I'm actually from Holloway, but I went to school in Old Street just around the corner. Now, it's important that you know. Will you say yeah for? You never went to my school, Ade. Now, it's important that you guys know that this is not a church hall. We encourage noise. You're not here to sit and just stare. We're gonna need you to make some noise. On the count of three. Whoa, whoa.
Okay, so clearly somebody spiked the punch. On the count of three, I wanna see how loud you can go. The idea is to not just sit there, but it's to be part of the conversation and make some noise too, all right? Whoever it was that just screamed East London, and whoever it was that encouraged everyone to start shouting early, use all that energy now. All right, are we ready? On the count of three, let's make some noise. One, two, three. Too much, man. Okay, we are all here, and both online as well, in the room for the very same cause. The climate crisis is the most pressing challenge of our generation. How we act will determine the future of our planet. Welcome each and every one of you.
Okay, before we get started, I've got to do the boring bit. This is the housekeeping bit. Imagine if you will, me wearing a flat cap, some silk pajamas, some comfy slippers. It's so funny. I'm looking up, and I can just see so many of you eating sandwiches. Just looked up, and you just filled your mouth with a free sandwich. It was really distracting. Eat, enjoy, it's free. It's okay, it's okay. Okay, housekeeping. This is where I sort of tell you about what's in the room because we have to do it. We need to be grown-ups. First and foremost, the toilets, I believe, are over there. You're laughing. I have to tell you.
The emergency exits are over there, and refreshments are over there, and my call points are now officially on the floor. Now, in studio four, we're doing T-shirt printing, and then in studios two and three, there are immersive experiences as well. You can engage with that and be a part of that too, should you choose. She's still eating her sandwich. Now, for those of you joining online, hello, everyone online and viewing via those cameras over there. You'll know about the Conference of the People platform. That's where you can watch conversations, you can ask questions in our Q&A, and find out more about our panelists. There's literally nothing there about me, so you'll be pleased to know that. Finally, questions, we need them from you. Okay, there's two ways that you can engage with your questions.
First of all, you can jump on the platform. All you have to do is type in your question. Second of all, it's in the room. We're going old school. If you remember at school, when you had a question, what do you do? You raise your hand. Exactly. We are going old school with questions, and we want you to raise your hands. Now, I imagine there's lots of people here who don't know who they're sat next to. Now, I was raised in the Christian Pentecostal Church. What we did in the church, when you came to church. There's a nod, there's people from church nodding.
When we went to church, one of the first things we do is you turn to the person to your left and you shake their hand, and you turn to the person on the right and shake their hand. So please feel free to do that now. Say hello to who you are next to. There we go. Amazing. Amazing. Fucking show-off. Amazing. Look at that. Look at that. Southern thing, we're all family. Isn't that nice? Okay. Now I just want to establish something that's gonna be a theme for the entire day, and that is that me and this man, Ade, over here are gonna have an ongoing beef. He has got this reputation that he's a really nice guy. Personally, I just think he's a bit of a flipping show-off. He just spun around on his chair to shake hands.
Because no one else in the room can do that, stop showing off, Ade, all right? Fucking spinning around. Okay, that is everything. We need your questions. We need you to share your ideas. If you are getting involved online as well, we really want you to use the hashtag. I know you all think the hashtags aren't cool, but they help, and it's very easy to ring-fence everything. If you are gonna use the hashtag, it's #PUMACOP. That is the hashtag we want you to use so you can be heard online. Okay, I've talked a lot. I'm nearly out of saliva, but I will shut up in a minute, and we'll actually get to it. Now, most of you will know about the Conference of the Parties, or COP. What's missing from COP is us, the people.
Which is why today we're celebrating the Conference of the People, powered by PUMA. Can we make some noise for that, please? Now, this is our chance to have a voice in the climate crisis conversation. To help guide this, we've got some incredible panels for you. There are five of them. I'm very excited about them. You'll hear from industry insiders, leaders, artists, innovators. Unfortunately, Cara Delevingne won't be joining us because her flight has actually been canceled. We do have a live performance from Bella, which I can't wait for. Now, before our first panel, please can you welcome to the stage just some of the people that have helped make today possible. Time to put your hands together and make some noise. Come on, don't be shy. This is where that happens.
Please welcome to the stage the CEO of PUMA, Bjørn Gulden. Please welcome the Chief Sourcing Officer of PUMA, Anne-Laure. This is a lot more street than I've always been. Please welcome the CEO of Under Armour, Colin Browne. Okay. That was a lot more street than I thought it would be. Those greetings were very East London. All right, well, we're gonna keep the East London theme then. We're gonna start with the tough questions. The first question I have for you guys is, what is your favorite verse from the Made in the Manor album by Kano? Anyone? No? No?
Sorry, your English accent is too thick.
That wasn't actually real. Now we'll get to your actual questions. Bjørn, why have PUMA decided to do this now? Why is this important?
Well, I think you said it. I mean, the climate, and the situation is maybe the biggest problem we have, and especially for the future generations. Some of us are older here, and we think we need to start doing things different than we've done so far. Thanks for coming, by the way, both online and you guys, being in the room. I think this is bigger than, you know, having a marketing plan or a product plan or doing something to win against competitors. That's why we're also two brands here. We would like to do this in the future, putting all the brands together and then see if we can do things better together.
Amazing. Okay, PUMA was ranked the most sustainable brand on Business of Fashion Sustainability Index for 2022. That's pretty impressive, right? Are you proud? How do you feel about that kind of accolade?
Well, if you win an award, you're always proud, but I think we all know we haven't done enough. I think the industry has done a lot over the last 30 years, especially our suppliers, and we have changed a lot. When we see these pictures, we all know we need to do more.
Yeah.
As we all know, we can only do that together. I think the climate is something that we need to do together and not try to make it a competitive advantage.
Yeah.
Proud, but a long way to go.
Cool. You may have noticed that there's PUMA logos absolutely everywhere. We also have the CEO of Under Armour here, who is the only person on stage not wearing a single PUMA logo.
Oh, you don't know.
Funnily enough.
You don't know.
What's that?
No, no, no.
Oh, wow.
I draw the line somewhere.
I thought this was about to go very dark, but thankfully it didn't go in that direction. Colin, look, as a major competitor to PUMA, why would you say collaboration is important?
Before I begin, just a big thank you to Bjørn for inviting me to kind of join today. To your point, Reggie, it's a little intimidating, I can just share, being the CEO of Under Armour, coming to a conference and being the only Under Armour person here surrounded by PUMA logos. You know, I feel a little bit kind of out of my depth here. The issue we're facing from climate change is bigger than any one brand. It's bigger than just this community. It's something we have to face globally, you know? At Under Armour, we have one of our kind of core values is acting sustainably, and we know we are not gonna be able to solve the climate change problem alone as Under Armour.
We're not gonna be able to firewall ourselves off against the rest of the industry and just deal with it from an Under Armour perspective. The only way we're gonna do that is by working in partnership with our competitors in a spirit of coopetition, as I call it. It's how do we cooperate but also make sure we still compete where it's relevant. It's, you know, really important to understand the difference of those things. To a large degree, there's a huge amount of opportunity for us to cooperate on areas which we don't compete against each other.
Okay. I didn't think I'd leave here with a new word, but coopetition.
Coopetition.
This is a good one. I like that.
It's the new one.
It's a new one. I like it. Okay, now, Anne, you've got incredible experience in sustainability. Do you have any advice for our panelists who are gonna be talking about every corner of it today?
I think we need to remain extremely humble and open. As Colin just said, we cannot do it alone. As a matter of fact, I'm a mother of three Gen Z children, and I had a very-
Sorry about that.
A harsh rehearsal with my daughter over the weekend. She's 24, and she was kicking my ass and kind of yelling at me saying, you know, "Your generation, you fucked up, and now this is gonna be up to us to leaving this to this world." It was a very good rehearsal because I can see with my kids and their friends how that topic of climate change and future is important. Being in this industry now for over 35 years, the only way to make it work is to collaborate, not just with the brands but with the suppliers because we need the vendors to be part of the journey.
Sure.
It's all today about collaboration, engagement, and keeping a very positive mindset because there is a lot of goodwill, there is a lot of energy, there is a lot of ambition to really fix what we have to fix, but we need everybody together. I would say that's my key message. Let's make it happen.
Okay. Amazing. Well, we have a ton of panels to come, and you're gonna hear from the people who have just been advised, including show-off over there, Ade. I'm looking forward to hear what you guys have to say. For now, can you please make some noise for just some of the people that have made today possible? Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Ladies first.
Okay. That was a lukewarm round of applause, but I'll let you off because most of you are still eating your sandwiches. Now, don't forget, we need your questions, so start thinking about them now. If there's something that you want to be discussed on stage, you can be a part of this conversation. You can jump on the platform if you're watching at home, of course. Just type the question in the box. In the room, if you want to get involved, you can go old school and put your hand up and ask a question like we did when we were in school. You can be very 2022. We all lived through COVID. We've seen these things before. They're called QR codes. Don't you remember them?
Wasn't it great using them for menus and everything else that we didn't want to use them for? Well, we're using them today. If you want a shortcut and ask a question without putting your hand up, just get your camera on there and use the QR code. All right. Are you ready for our first conversation?
Hang your heads in shame. That was disgusting. Are you ready for our first conversation
Okay. We're going back to church today. Okay, for this first conversation, we are literally getting dirty. We're literally talking rubbish. Now using waste as a resource is something our next host is passionate about. She's a podcaster and sustainable fashion consultant and wearing an amazing outfit today as well. Thanks for joining us. Before you meet the brilliant Bianca Foley, watch this.
I'd always see allotments from the train on my way to school. I never really got why people would want one. I met my girlfriend, and she had one, so I thought I'd give it a go.
Two years later, I'm obsessed. I come here whenever I can. When I'm not, I'm thinking about it. We keep all our old veg food waste to make compost. We use it to grow new food. It's like magic, growing something new from something old. Things grow, and then they go back to the soil. There's like no waste. Everything goes back in to make the next crop for the next season. It just keeps going round and round and round and round.
Hi, everyone. Thanks, Reggie, for that very, very lovely intro. Wow. The idea of circularity is things going around and around. Nature knows what it's doing. Food waste, compost, for example, that's just the perfect example of it. Nature has the clues of how our capitalist economy could operate, how we can use a limited number of materials that go around and around, instead of taking more, making more, and throwing more away. What other learnings from nature can we apply to the fashion industry? That leads me very nicely into our first panel today. I'd like to introduce my first set of panelists. Joining Anne-Laure will be Izzy Manuel, Marthien van Eersel, Bruno Langlois, Romain Girard. Like to make your way up onto the stage, guys. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, everyone.
I didn't actually properly introduce everybody, so I'll just go through their names very quickly again. Next to me is Izzy Manuel, who is a next gen thinker. We've got Anne-Laure, PUMA's Chief Sourcing Officer. Marthien van Eersel, Manager Business Development and Materials at Ortessa. Bruno Langlois, who's a Business Development and Partnerships Manager at Carbios, and Romain Girard, who is the Senior Head of Innovation. Thanks, guys. We talk a hell of a lot about circularity, and we saw a setup to this intro in the intro video. Before we dive in and talk further with our panelists today, I think it would be really helpful for us to look at one of PUMA's latest examples in biodegradability, which is incredibly hard to say for some reason, RE:SUEDE.
This is PUMA RE:SUEDE. An experiment in biodegradability. It starts with the iconic suede.
Every aspect of this sneaker has been rethought. The upper, the sole, the liner, every single stitch. To be more sustainable and to be fully biodegradable. 500 PUMA fans are beta testing the RE:SUEDEs today. They're wearing, loving and sharing their RE:SUEDE experience. Six months in, they'll return their worn RE:SUEDEs to PUMA. Biodegradation begins, turning RE:SUEDEs into compost for crops. How does PUMA evolve? How can our industry benefit? How can we all get one step closer to circularity?
It's a new opportunity for us to make a positive impact on the future.
It's about creating footwear that's loved by the mavericks and the planet. There's only one forever. Let's make it better.
That's fantastic. If you are watching at home, please join in and send us your questions using the hashtag #PUMACOP. Let's get into the panel. I'm gonna direct the first question to Anne-Laure. What's the biggest challenge when recycling footwear, in your opinion?
Nope.
That's not. That's found.
You're gonna have to project.
Let's try. Okay, it's working now. I think the biggest challenge in footwear is the issue of a lot of components in a shoe. You have to bring together many components and glue them together. How you biodegrade something so complicated can be really a challenge. That's the biggest hurdle we have right now in footwear.
Definitely. What are you doing to tackle the issue, to be fair? Like Romain, Anne, could you guys kind of elaborate on that a little bit?
I think we had to tackle the challenge, we had to rethink the way we approach product and specifically, next to the challenge that Anne-Laure mentioned, there is one key challenge is also the pace of what we do. We cannot wait 10 years or X amount of time to move the needle, but we need to move on that topic at the right pace and at a fast pace. When we set out to that challenge to turn a shoe back to earth and not from a product to a product, but from a product to earth, to us, it was very important that we are moving this with the right pace. In a standard process of innovation.
Mm-hmm.
With such a complexity of a topic, you would segment and fragment your approach and look at something linear. You would set up the material, make sure they are passing the right standards, move on to the footwear, make sure they are doing and so on and so forth and so on, which leads you to a certain amount of time. In that process, we only took care of the core and the base, the material, making sure we find the right partner to be able to understand, and then basically open completely the doors as well as with the consumer, to really understand at once, not in a linear way, to understand at once what how the product behave and what the product does, and does it match what we were envisioning?
It's a very different approach of looking at creating product, which is much more based on being experimental. Moving away from trying to have something perfect, but rather emphasize the fact that we do things in the right direction.
Mm-hmm.
Perfection might never happen, or will come along the way.
Yeah, definitely. It's definitely a journey, and there's so many.
Parts that are moving with it. I mean, I know you've got thoughts on this, so if you do want to jump in.
I think it's really interesting because obviously your point was saying that the consumer obviously needs to change their perspective on waste, which I totally agree. Like, what we're, you know, activists online in the sustainable fashion world, we're always trying to tell people, you know, circularity, shop secondhand, reduce your waste. Don't throw your clothes to landfill because they just sit there for thousands of years. I think the problem is from a consumer's perspective, we really struggle to find ways that we can actually sustainably, you know, reduce that waste. That means, you know, it's really impossible to recycle clothes. Like, there aren't many firms that I could just send a bag of old clothes that aren't worth anything to be recycled.
I think that's where brands obviously need to start thinking beyond the consumer and think about what they can do in the immediate, like reducing their waste, reducing overproduction. You know, 30% of clothes every season aren't actually sold. What happens to that? That's a really, you know. We need to be reducing consumption, but not just from a consumer perspective, but also from a brand perspective.
Well, if I can take the topic.
Yeah.
RE:JERSEY. You know, we've been starting, exploring, and now scaling up the capability to use waste as a resource. I'm not sure you guys how familiar you are with this experiment we've done on the RE:JERSEY, taking old jerseys to transform them back into new jerseys. As a matter of fact, I was in Spain last week to visit our partners, the waste collection company and the chemical company and the yarn company who make that process feasible, where you use basically old T-shirts that you shred and transform back into polyester, so you do a new T-shirt. This is a technology actually that has been developed, I would say probably 10 years ago, but that was commercially not viable 10 years ago, that now becomes commercially viable.
I'm very hopeful, and we talked about it also with Colin and looking at the industry as a whole, that from a waste perspective, we look at waste as a resource to make sure that the circular process can really become reality. We have an ambition at PUMA next year to produce at least 500,000 T-shirts using old T-shirts to make new T-shirts and really ramping up that to a few million units in the very, really close futures. We're building the capability in Europe. We're looking at building the capability in Asia as well. I think as an industry, and we're collaborating with the brands and the other, the other stakeholders we have from waste collection to yarn suppliers to garment makers to make it feasible and realistic.
This was for me, being a veteran of the industry, I've been in this industry for very long. If I look at 2022, this has been really a year where I get some hope that to your point, you know, the overproduction, you know, the reusing of the waste we are creating as a consumer, there is now some possibilities, at least in certain categories like polyester, that we can make use of old waste to make new garments, and that is a never-ending process. Now, the other big piece for us, and I think for the entire industry, is really about collaboration, and we have key partners here from a chemical industry that are helping to really create this innovation where using the waste as a resource will become a reality beyond polyester.
Yeah.
Maybe my friend from Carbios can speak here.
Thank you, Anne-Laure, for this pass on my message. I just want to add that you're very helpful, and it started with simple materials, and now we are developing technology even for more complex materials. It's true that for the comfort, we like mixture of textile, mixture of fibers. In the nature, we also produce a lot of complex materials. I mean, a tree is made of cellulosic, but it's all kinds of nature. Inspired by nature, we are basically re-engineering this organism, which are able to break down materials to simple bricks. That's what Carbios technology is about, is to break down the fibers of polyesters, even if it's mixed with other materials. You can take all the bricks and then remake fiber.
This is the new adventure, and this is what we are trying also to do. To be credible, we want also to scale it up. We use a lot of materials. I mean, I like to give just one number. The textile industry is using 50 million tons of polyester fibers altogether.
Mm-hmm.
We need to think of technology that capable of handling this huge amount of materials.
No, that's fantastic. Going back to your point on collaboration, I know that obviously you guys are working together with Ortessa on the RE:SUEDE process. For Martine, I wanted to know, what did you discover during that kind of RE:SUEDE process? I guess acting as a partner with PUMA.
Yeah, well, what we discovered with investigating the biodegradability of the materials is that all materials that are used biodegrade, but the shoe as a whole and all the materials have different ways of biodegradation and with different timing. By that, we are now looking into how we can fit it into a normal process of a normal operating composting plant. Looking at the RE:SUEDE shoe and the materials, we saw that there is a need for some pre-treatment. We see that you still need an industrial biocomposting plant to really make it a compost again. You can't take the shoe, put it in your garden, and watch half a year later, where's the shoe gone. That's not happening.
Exactly.
It really takes a lot of effort.
Yeah.
It's funny that you say that because there's been products that we've seen innovation over the past however many years, where there are claims where they're completely biodegradable, and they've actually made that claim. That you could put it in your flower bed at home, and it will compost in a couple of years. I'm thinking to myself, How on earth is that possible? I'm glad that you clarified that. Question for Bruno, more so on the recycling side of things. What recycling innovation is exciting you the most at the moment and or what sort of bio recycling are you most hopeful about for the future?
Well, hopeful because, as I said, we are looking at nature. We know nature is capable of producing these, what I would call, molecular scissors. This kind of little mechanism to break down materials and get back to the raw materials. We have engineered an enzyme to do this for the polyester. We are hopefully looking at other materials to degrade. I mean, we started with the big one. The polyester is big in the industry. This is also what is important is that in this circular model, we need to create. Everybody is responsible, so we need to have people taking care of their waste, not looking at them as something that they want to get rid of as quickly as possible and end up in the wrong place.
We really want to make sure that when you have something, you say, "Well, it's raw material. It's a future. What I have in my hand is a future T-shirt. I don't like it anymore. It's faded. It's full of holes. I don't like it anymore. They changed the color," and so on. But it's raw material. This is something you can collect, and you can put in the right place so that we can transform it back into a new material, something that will have a new future. This is something we can do with this technology.
Definitely. It's interesting to see where waste could be heading. Have any of you seen any other innovations or exciting new ways that we can use waste?
I think-
If I can add. Sorry.
Yeah.
One thing I want to add here.
Yeah, sure.
'Cause it's a conversation. Sorry. Let me do that.
Jump on in.
One of the challenge we have today is the waste collection and how we use that waste collection, put it out into the new flow. I think we building the technology, but we know that collectively, we need to get that waste collection organized and structured, so that waste collection becomes a resource. We're making progress there. There are multiple conversations happening as we speak.
Yeah.
We know this is this feedstock of waste that's gonna create the new resources of the future. There will be more collaboration, more work to be done within the countries, within the industries, within the brands to make sure that we look at it from a collective standpoint and just from a brand standpoint.
Yeah
I mean, when I was in Spain, I was really amazed by the partner we have and the building, also technologies to sort out the waste when the waste is coming through. You see there are new industries, new jobs, new business being built around that concept of using waste as a resource, which I really believe it's a fantastic.
Yeah
Fantastic initiative.
I mean, I know that, for example, 22 billion pairs of shoes get thrown away every single year, which is, you know, just under 3x the world's population, which I think is absolutely insane.
I just wanted to know, like, how, as a brand, can you ensure, let's say, if you've got the technology to collect everyone's shoes and recycle it, that it actually does happen? 'Cause I've been reached out by other shoe companies saying, "You know, we want to recycle your shoes. We'll take them in and give them a new lease of life." But they never actually said what they do to those shoes, you know? The Atacama Desert in Chile is literally being filled up with stuff that is just fast fashion waste and fashion waste. How can, as a brand, and not just PUMA, but other brands in the industry, ensure that, you know, the stuff that you are claiming to be recycled and are getting recycled, how can you prove that?
How can we, as consumers, know that you are actually gonna do that?
That's a very important question, not just for recycling, by the way, but for the entire supply chain. There is a need today to prove what you're doing is exactly what you're saying.
Mm.
On recycling particularly, we have Textile Exchange later in one panel that's gonna explain how we're building standards and processes to validate the claim that something is really recycled. Because to your point, there could be a lot of cheating.
Transparency-
Yes.
Essentially in the industry.
It's a key element, and there's a lot of work being done today to make sure that we can build the right system that collect the data, which is a true data to validate the claim. You're very right in pointing out that we need to make sure that what we say is really what we do. Now, going back into footwear, collecting the waste and reusing the waste in footwear, to be honest with you, there will be much more work to be done, and we have the RE:SUEDE initiative at the moment to understand how to biodegrade a shoe. Apparel is easier than footwear. I think footwear would probably take more time. We need-
There's so many components.
Yes.
Yes, okay.
Yes.
There's so many different pieces.
It's different.
Different fabric-
Far more complex.
...fibers-
Yes
make up one piece of footwear that it is going to take a long time.
Yes
to work out those innovations. I think those
We need to go quick, and that's why the industry collaboration here is so critical, you know, not just from a brand perspective, but also from the supplier perspective and from the technology perspective. All together, we join forces to find solutions.
Yeah
To my friend's one last point, there is an emergency. We know. We feel it. That's why we're having this kind of conference today, to bring everybody and get support.
Yeah. Just taking it back, and I'll ask that question again then. Bruno, what recycling innovation are you most excited about at the moment?
The most exciting recycling.
Yeah.
When I look at some technologies today in terms of recycling, it's the capability to transform something that has no value in our mind, a waste, into something that can be like a brand-new materials, you know? Today, we are capable in our labs and working at large scales to take a T-shirt and make it a new packaging for food. You would think that you can transform the industry like it's a raw materials. It's an old T-shirt, so you think it has no value, and tomorrow you can make a fresh material out of that. That's what really appeal me. We also work on enzyme where you could basically degrade material in a home garden, in home composter.
For small objects, this has value. You know, if you take a tea bag.
Yeah
... or a coffee pod, the fact that it has already a lot of organic content because the tea or the coffee, and just the thin layer around it that is useful to use the pod or the tea bags can biodegrade now in 20 days.
You get the whole organic contents are released. For these kind of small objects, it's quite interesting as well.
Yeah. I think the key takeaway from what you're saying for me is that innovation is key, and then waste really isn't waste. It's a resource.
Exactly.
It's something that we can always use. Yeah.
Yeah. It's a key takeaway for today. Don't look at your garbage as something that has no life.
Mm.
I mean, look at your waste and say, "They are value. They are organic. They can go to make compost. There are other materials." The ultimate waste actually should be shrinking as we speak.
Mm-hmm
almost become nothing in the future.
Yeah, definitely. I completely agree with you. A question for my little Instagram pal here, Izzy. You speak a lot about the importance of transparency in ethical fashion. Without us going into a lengthy discourse on this, which we can, why do you believe it's so important?
I think because consumers in general feel like we're constantly not getting the truth, you know?
Mm-hmm
See all these claims of, you know, this is a new conscious collection, this is a new green collection. We're being sustainable. Actually if you look at it, 1% of that garment or product is made from recycled plastic, and 1% out of a whole product is absolutely nothing. Obviously there is a climate crisis. I mean, we can't lie about that there is a problem and that, you know, we do need to do something about it. I think transparency is so key. Like, you know, Fashion Revolution have facts that say that, you know, most brands do not share their production numbers. Like, could one of you come up with how many things you're making each year? Because I think this is the key thing.
We do communicate. We do put that on the annual report every year. The amount of cotton or polyester or every fiber we're using, everything is transparent. We name our suppliers, Tier 1 and Tier 2. We're completely transparent on that. Completely. It's a very thick report. Trust me, it's a very thick report. I don't know how many pages. I have to read it myself. It's a lot of information. Whenever we've been asked, we're very happy to answer.
I think the issue is people aren't gonna, you know. I'm not gonna go through a 200-page report because that's quite difficult as a consumer to read. You know, from a scientific perspective, the jargon used in a lot of these annual reports are actually quite confusing. A lot of people go like, "Oh, I don't know what that actually means." I think when you look at sustainability pages on most, like, brands' websites, they are just saying like, you know, not necessarily PUMA, but some brands just say like, "We care about the garment workers. We are using sustainable materials," but don't necessarily say exactly how and why. I think that transparency is so important for consumers to feel confident with who they buy with, basically.
I think you have a very valid point. I think transparency is key. At the same time, you know, the industry is a very fragmented industry with multiple layers, multiple people. I give you just one example. One style, one purchase order, do you know how many data?
A lot.
1,000.
Not surprised.
A ton of data. Because there are so many data and so many stages in the way the industry functions, unfortunately, there is a lot to learn. I can tell you myself, I had to learn a lot on that, especially on sustainability, because of the complexity. It operates from a field to a finished product and to the consumer. Yes, we're open, we are an open book, and we share a lot of information, but I'm afraid a little bit of education and knowledge has to be there.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you know, I'm happy to train anyone or to exchange with anyone on this kind of topic, but the reality is, from the very beginning, from the product to the end, it's a lot of information.
I think it's just making it easy for consumers to understand what the information is and just so they don't have to actually search for it. I think, you know, I spend a lot of time literally going through loads of different things on the Internet, trying to find little details of, you know, garment workers and stuff, and it shouldn't be that difficult, 'cause if it is that difficult, I feel consumers feel like there's something that's hidden there. There's some, like, you know, hidden information that they can't get. I think just making stuff so easy to understand and just, you know, there rather than in a 200-page booklet, which is quite difficult for people. You know, people don't have the time to read that either.
Well, I invite you to go through the website with me.
Just on that point, actually. I'm gonna go a little bit rogue, and I'm gonna put it to the audience and say, just as a rough show of hands, do you guys feel like you understand the terminology used? Do you feel confident making a decision where you would shop based on terms like green, conscious, ethical, sustainable? Those of you who kind of feel like that you'd be confident, could you raise your hands for me? That's barely anyone here. I think that kind of goes to show that there's validity on both sides of that argument. That the majority of consumers really wouldn't have an idea as to what each of these terms mean.
At the same time, there is part on the brands and the powers that be to make it more easy for people to understand. At the same time, for those consumers who want to understand, to take the time and educate themselves about those things. I think people need to meet in the middle. Maybe that's just me.
For sure. For sure.
Yeah. Anyway, thanks for that, guys. I appreciate it. Let's go back onto our kind of scripted questions for a bit. What are your all kind of approaches to products' afterlife then, Romain?
What did change in the approach?
Yeah
In general, afterlife? I mean, afterlife of product used to be-
Not an improvement in our business, an afterthought. That means you would create a product based on performance or based on a certain aesthetic. Then when the product is out there, maybe, you know, you would think, "Oh, what do we do with, you know, the used product?" I think the last decade, it showed that this approach now needs to be much more embedded in the conception of the product or even more extreme, like on the RE:SUEDE and some other maybe experiment that we're gonna do in the next year, needs to be even the start of building a new product. There's been a big shift into this from an afterthought to being whether a starting point or deeply embedded into the conception of the product these days.
Afterlife of a product has always kind of been an afterthought, as you said. I've seen such a change over the past sort of five years, how brands are thinking about this. This is maybe something for the next panel that we'll be talking about. I want to see, personally, more brands shouting about the good things that they do. The things where you offer buyback schemes, you offer recycling schemes, you offer mending, as part of or like a lifetime guarantee within a product, and seeing brands really shouting about that, 'cause I feel like that in itself is a big step towards lowering people's consumption. I mean, how do you guys feel about those sort of things in terms of offering those kind of schemes?
Well, you need to offer this because we're talking about waste as a resource, but in first, resource becomes a waste. You have an end-of-life product that's full resources, and you throw it away carelessly into a bin together with all other resources, and then it becomes waste. Us all as people are making resources into waste just by not caring what happens after we have thrown it away. By introducing take-back schemes, targeting certain resources before they become waste, then the innovation push isn't that big needed because you have a good shoe.
Yeah
that can be composted. You have a good T-shirt that can be recycled and not a T-shirt full with yogurt because it's been in a waste truck. That's hard to be recycled, where innovation money is needed to get it as a resource. I think evolving into take-back schemes, other business models will push the technology innovation because the commercial viable ones will be reached earlier.
I definitely agree with you. Are there any other sort of points of circularity that we can begin to include in the supply chain, I guess from conception and design before it hits creation?
Production. Production waste in general. Like, what happens to production waste? Can you literally use suede cutoffs and turn them into new suede or etc.? Before it even hits a consumer, there are things that brands can then do to reduce waste in general by recycling the stuff that would end up in landfill in production.
It's happening already. In the apparel world, it's happening already. The suppliers are collecting the waste and transform that back into a new resource. That is happening in cotton. It's happening in polyester already. This is something that we all understood as a value because again, it's a resource, so we don't want to lose the resource, so we have.
There's a cost associated with that as well.
Yes. For sure. Yes. It's happening in China. It's building up in Vietnam. It's happening in Bangladesh, and we have a Bangladesh partner here talk about cotton. We're really trying. Everybody's trying very hard to avoid that land to the end of its life, trust me. On footwear for sure, I mean, something probably a little bit more new, and Romain can talk about it, where the awareness in footwear is now being built, and we know we have to work on options and solutions and make sure that the supply chain collectively activates innovation and ways to use, to your point.
Yeah
to use the pre-consumer waste to make use of it. Yeah, that's reality. That's true.
Could you just-
Romain, you wanna add something?
Sorry, I was just gonna ask, sorry, just before you continue. Could you just explain to the audience what pre-consumer waste is, please?
Basically, when you do a product, you get the fabric. If I look on the apparel as an example, you cut the fabric and not entire piece of fabric would be used to make a garment.
Mm-hmm.
Some of that will be not used because you don't use everything. That usually in the past was collected and thrown away.
Mm-hmm.
What's happening today is that we keep all this waste from the fabric.
Mm-hmm
We send it to chemical recycling to bring that back into a yarn. This is happening in polyester and in cotton. We use the leftover from cotton on the light fabric. The color one is more tricky. We can't really use it, but on a light color, we use the cotton wastage that we put it back into the yarn. Today we have on the PUMA example, on cotton, we are able to use about 25%. In 100% cotton, 25% can be coming from the waste from production.
Okay.
There are activities there. We're trying to gain knowledge and to get the technology to help us to make the fabric as good as possible using the waste. It's more challenging on cotton. It's much easier on synthetic.
Do you aim to have 100% waste and to like, to recycle 100%?
Yeah
of post-consumer waste?
With less money, you know, at the end of the day.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
For everybody. We want, yeah, definitely we want that.
Yeah. Perfect. Sorry to interrupt. Did you wanna carry on?
No, I think on footwear, you know, of course there is another complexity as we were discussing at the beginning. The product by itself is made of much more different or many different materials that have very different properties, and we need to respect this. I think one of the challenge also for us is, and I think for the consumer, we don't want to lower the quality of the product. We don't want to lower the performance of the product. We don't want to lower the comfort of the product. It's also, as much as we want to move the needle, we have to find the right balance where it still connect with the consumer. We are experimenting a lot at the moment in terms of foam.
There is definitely new process where there is a lot of this waste that is generated or the waste that is generated when building the product can be reused without losing the properties and so forth. There is more opportunities in that field. The complexity of the product actually forces to really look at this reliance of innovation. I think especially in footwear, we came to an era where, you know, trying to just improve will not be a move and will not be enough if we really want to move the needle. We have to look at new tracks, we have to open new streams, and we have to open the conversation also very early from the beginning.
I think part of opening also that conversation in the beginning is it helps also to bring awareness. Because as a brand building product, we can only go as far as, you know, reaching the consumer and so forth. But taking back the product or doing the right move from the consumer point of view, there is a moment where, you know, it has to come from both sides. Opening that conversation and that dialogue helps to share that understanding in a less official way also.
Yeah.
Something that is way easier to understand.
You're right. I think the message there is that it's a fine balance. We've got to find that balance between not compromising on quality and product, but also not having the impact that we've had for however many years. Moving on to our last question before we move on to our Q&A from the audience and those at home. Coming back to you, Izzy, what change can people make today that will make a true and lasting impact?
I think just thinking about if you're gonna buy something new, are you actually gonna wear it? Is it just gonna sit in your wardrobe for years on end and do nothing? 'Cause that is just wasting raw materials for no good reason. I just think about how often you're gonna wear a product, and if you're actually gonna wear it, and if you actually need it. 'Cause if you don't need it, then why buy it? We're in this world of overconsumption because we're so used to just being able to pick up that one thing or buy that T-shirt because we might want it for that one event. That whole one wear for one event, it's just so, like, it just really promotes overconsumption.
I think just thinking about how often you're gonna wear something and if you actually need it and if you're actually gonna use it a lot is my main take home.
Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks. I mean, I know I said that was the last question, and I know you are our Gen Z thinker. Has anybody else got any points on that? What can people do to make a long lasting change?
I think the dialogue, exchanging ideas and really challenge each other like we're doing right now is honestly what helps everybody to get to the next level. We have a panel here which is made of highly technical people and consumer. I think bringing, you know, the two sides or different sides together is absolutely critical.
That's a really fair point. I totally agree.
I think also that those conversation, I have also a couple of kids and then different age also. I think opening that conversation also change the mindset. Like recently, our young teenager is looking for some T-shirt. Like, instead of going online and looking at certain aspects, actually he look at my wardrobe and see what I'm not wearing. That's where you see that some of the conversations in the families as individuals, but some of the conversation when we're opening these between brands and then consumer, we're able to adjust or to evolve the mindset of the people. That's, I think that's very interesting to see.
I like the fact that you said that. Something that I've spoken about a lot on my podcast is the fact that I tend to shop my mom's wardrobe. About 50% of what I own comes from my mom's wardrobe. She's much older than me. I'm in my thirties, so I know that it might not necessarily have been in style when I was, like, 20, but I loved it all the same. Shop your mom and dad's wardrobe if that's what you need to do.
I can relate to that.
I can relate to that too because my daughter is stealing my wardrobe.
See, it's a thing. It's a thing.
We wear the same size.
I'm gonna wrap it up. If you would like to ask a question in the audience, we're gonna take it old school and take it to church, as Reggie said. Please raise your hand and somebody will bring a mic over to you. First of all, I'm gonna go to a question from Slido. This is a question to all of the panelists. Can PUMA help to take back and recycle shoes from their retailers? Whoever wants to jump in on that.
We have to do it. I mean, the regulator will force us to do it anyway, so that's something which is in the agenda.
Yeah.
Taking back is something that needs to get organized, not just PUMA alone. I spoke with Colin earlier. We know as brands we need to collectively find a way to organize a good take back scheme.
Yeah.
which is not PUMA specific, but multi-brand specific.
You're not currently doing it, are you?
We do.
Oh, you do.
We started to have some take-back scheme.
And-
That's something we need to expand. Yes.
Is that something that you'll be doing within your third party retailers as well?
We have to. I mean, I don't think there will be any other options at all.
I mean, retailers make up 13 million tons of textile waste, so as you said, it needs to be done, otherwise just more stuff ends up in landfill.
Well, the guys we have in Spain who does the collection of waste.
Yeah.
Basically we use the waste from this guy, which is not PUMA products. It's multiple retailers.
Yeah
Probably doesn't really matter when we take the waste from him. You know, it could be an Inditex waste, could be Mango, could be whatever.
Mm.
It doesn't have to be specifically PUMA.
I think it's admirable, though, 'cause a lot of companies I've seen that do a take-back scheme say it has to be specific.
No
to that product. Which I think is nice. Yeah, it shouldn't be like that.
It shouldn't be specific. No, of course not. It's, you know, whatever is available is a resource anyway.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Let's use it, you know?
Exactly.
It doesn't matter.
It's the same material.
PUMA, not PUMA, it doesn't really matter. Yes.
All waste is a resource.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything can be used, yeah.
It's the same material to start with.
Yeah.
I mean, only the design is appealing.
Exactly.
The rest, the polyester, whichever.
Yeah
... part of industry-
It's a resource.
It's always coming. It's the same material.
Yeah.
So...
Exactly. Have we got any questions in the audience? If anybody wants to ask, please raise your hand. Okay. We'll come to the lady in the leopard print first. You wanna go first? Or whoever you wanna go to first, I'll ask them.
Thank you so much. PUMA seems to be doing such great things for, like, waste and rethinking waste and everything like that, but what was, like, the first step you took? Because obviously, like, a lot of these things are for, maybe for smaller brands are, like, out of the question right now, financially, resourcefully. Like, what was the first step that you took when thinking about rethinking waste and how you're gonna reduce your waste?
Wow.
Yeah.
What a question.
Honestly, I mean, to be very transparent with you, this project we had on RE:JERSEY, RE:FIBRE came from a French brand who we got to know that they were doing these kind of things and that basically, you know, triggered something in our mind, say, "Why not doing the same? Why not trying that?" Basically, again, it's going back to this collaboration, this openness, because we don't have the truth, we don't have. You know, alone we're never gonna make it happen, so we need a collective effort from everybody. There are super niche brands that are really dedicated to these topics that are from whom we can learn a lot. It's basically reaching out, being open, talking to people. You know, it could be informal meeting today where somebody I don't know will come with an idea, and then it's gonna trigger.
I think it's really a lot about this conversation, collaboration, being curious, being open. Our suppliers are fantastic people, and some of them have built their own vision into sustainability, the material supplier, the garment supplier. We have this constant conversation, what can we do better collectively? It's a lot about being curious, being open, and really encourage this innovation to happen. Yeah, it's a collaboration.
It's a collaboration, and it's also making sure we act. There is a lot of things you can have on paper and, you know, theorize. I think our focus and our power in a brand like our size is we are able to, you know, to try things and really, like, learn the reality of what it does and how it works. I think, yeah, that's a big lever of making sure that we are stepping into action.
To just add on top of it, again, I have three Gen Z at home, and trust me, they push me very, very hard. Their friends are the same people saying to me, "You need, you guys need to do something." We have the power to try and to, Romain's, you know, to echo what Romain is saying, we try. Then it works. It doesn't. But at least every time we learn and we bring more people into the conversation. We need you guys.
That.
You're helping us.
That's the last thing is really, like, innovation. Perfection is the enemy of innovation. That's really on those type of projects, we really embody that mindset. We really like, there is no failure. There can only be a positive by doing this. Yes, maybe we burn some money somewhere, okay. There was a learning that, you know, we moved the needle maybe in a year, maybe in two years. We have, I think we are really living this and embodying this in the company.
I think there is also one dimension probably which is introduced in many industry, including the textile industry, is to design materials, to design clothing for their end of life. We used to design materials because they would be economic.
Yeah
We will maximize the value from our own segments. Now we need to think that the whole value chain, including the end of life for products.
That's very true, yeah.
has to be thought with the right design at the beginning. How do I make my raw materials? How do I generate the end of life for my products? That's probably a new dimension for the industry.
Yes. Very true.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. We've got time for one more question. I'll take it, another one to the audience. The lady over there. Hi.
Thanks. Hi. I'm a journalist here, just kind of reporting on this, but I had a question about the RE:SUEDE. I'm wearing those right now. I just, the whole period of it being 6 months until it's sent back, is that, does that period, do you plan to extend that period? Because at the moment, if you see 6 months, you're returning that doesn't seem like that's quite the life cycle that you want from a shoe. I'd rather get a shoe that lasts quite a long time. I'm just wondering if this is just a trial or if you plan to make that life cycle as long as it can be until you then return it to be made into something else.
Again, it's an experiment. We are learning. We define, you know, those six months as a certain base for us to get the right amount of data as an understanding. The beauty in that project is actually kind of the time will not matter because the idea of turning the product into soil, and actually soil on the first read that we are having, you know, soil that has a grade A level, that means soil that can go to farmers. You know, it kind of therefore doesn't matter what would be, you know, the life cycle of the product.
I think because you touch also the timespan, I think on that project we might even discover or learn that we might need to rethink the business model of buying or accessing those products over time. Therefore, again, the timing aspect is schedule has no relevance anymore.
On a side note, how do you deal with microplastics and biodegradability? Like, are all the products that if you decide to make them biodegradable, gotta be technically plastic-free, 'cause obviously there's an issue around microplastics in clothing, microplastics in compostability, biodegradability. Like, how as a brand or as an industry is that being handled?
I mean, that's on the microplastics, that's where we are going, you know, to explore.
Yeah.
I want to highlight this because we didn't have the chance, but this is the reality also that we all have to be aware. When we started this project, of course, working with a biodegradable partner or someone that is working in that area is key. We reach out to all the people in Germany and across Europe. This was the only partner that was, you know, daring to also invest and engage and support us in trying things, you know? And so learning on this. So I just want to highlight on the side so where sometimes the complexity in this topic is actually not on the product, but it's on all the rest of the process. But then to that specific question, I think.
Yeah.
We've got now more learnings as we are going through the projects, and then I
The microplastics is always a big issue and a problem. When we make compost out of green household waste and together with the waste ratio or bio-based products, the compost we make is being tested on physical properties, chemical properties, but also it's being tested on the amount of glass, stones, and plastics that are found. It's not make a batch, do a test, it's continuous sampling. Every month, an analysis and by that analysis you'll get your A, B, or C grade compost to sell. Plastics, the amount of plastics in your product is one of the analyzed items. It's being taken care of. If you really go to really microplastics, that's an endless discussion. You're a chemist, you know this.
Yeah.
At 100% efficient processes, they don't exist.
It's impossible. Not possible. Yeah.
Eradicating microplastics is a fable.
Yeah.
You must do anything you can do to make sure that you don't introduce plastics that aren't degradable or can't be used to improve soil into the nature.
Yeah.
That's where you should focus that now on, and perhaps over 10 years we can have a 100% efficient process. We can have no microplastics, but if you don't take the first step, you will never end up anywhere.
It's down to the materials that are used.
Yeah.
to make a product
Exactly.
rather than
We need to learn because actually on this there is no standards.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, yeah.
We are also pioneering here. Nothing is existing here. When we started to also on that project, we wanted to understand the only standards we had were on the packaging.
Definitely.
Which has nothing to do with this type of product.
Wow.
That's, you know, it's a very valid question, but we can only say that we're gonna figure that out with the time.
Yeah.
We're gonna get there.
Okay. Thank you all so much. We're gonna wrap it up there. If you could all give our wonderful panelists a round of applause. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Next joining me up on the stage will be the lovely Bella Webb, Sustainability Editor for Vogue Business. Hi. Welcome.
Can you hear me? Yeah? Okay. I'm Bella Webb. As Bianca said, I'm the sustainability editor at Vogue Business. Today I'm gonna be chatting with Nicole McLaughlin, who is an upcycling designer from New York. Now, you might have seen Nicole's work online or in Studio Three. One of her jackets is there for you all to get up close to. Her tongue-in-cheek approach to sustainability has seen her making slippers from volleyballs, personal favorite, board shorts from packets of Haribo, and actually this vest that I'm wearing, which is made from old PUMA backpacks. Now, Nicole started working with PUMA in 2021, creating one-off projects for Instagram and leading design workshops to help young people start upcycling themselves. We have a short video from Nicole before we start the Q&A. Let's take a look.
I'm Nicole McLaughlin, a designer focused on sustainability through the exploration of upcycling. For Conference of the People, I created a one-of-a-kind piece utilizing PUMA samples and scraps in celebration of this event. My inspiration for the piece not only comes from the materials themselves, but also the message I'm trying to convey. Each piece helps highlight the need for sustainability, the potential of waste, and how changing our perceptions can help shape a better world. I knew I wanted to make a piece that had multiple pockets and storage options, so I took apart some used PUMA backpacks as the base. I love playing around with the colors and the shapes, and the final piece is a multifunctional vest.
PUMA's Conference of the People is an amazing platform that puts sustainability front and center. It allows us to talk about a serious subject matter that needs to be addressed. We need solutions, and I hope that we will find them together. This is the final piece. I hope you enjoy. Thank you.
Hi, Nicole. How are you doing?
I'm doing well. How are you?
Yeah, good. To kick us off, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into upcycling?
Yeah, for sure. For me, it started just a couple years ago. I was working in the fashion industry, and that's when I really started to see the amount of waste and the amount of samples that were, you know, floating around an office. It got me really inspired to wanna try to make stuff myself. I'm a graphic designer by trade, and so I was kinda curious how to work with my hands, learn how to sew and how to make stuff. Through that process, I started to realize how incredible it was just to be able to, you know, take these old pieces and kinda give them some new life and revitalize even like the things in my house and my closet.
It started at a really small scale, and then now it's become my full-time job, which I feel super lucky to have that.
We just had a panel on waste as a resource, and you seem to find resources everywhere from, like I said, Haribo packets to toy cars. What is it that inspires you?
It's kind of funny 'cause I feel like it's a little cliché to say, but everything inspires me. I really just love to really keep my eyes open and look around throughout my day, kind of really be conscious in the utility things that I'm using, so like kitchen items or like, you know, things within my house or my closet or like my recycling bin sometimes. I think inspiration for me can kind of come from wherever, but I really gravitate towards materials that are a little bit unconventional. Think like shower curtains and, you know, things that would traditionally just get tossed. Those are the things that I will hang on to and put them in my material library and try to find a way to use them in a project.
The scale of clothing waste is huge. Each week, a shocking 15 million secondhand clothing items arrive at Kantamanto Market in Ghana, mostly sent from countries in the global north, and they clog landfills, they clog the oceans. We've seen mountains of unwanted clothes in Chile's Atacama Desert. How can upcycling help to reduce the fashion industry's impact on the environment?
Yeah. I mean, just think, like, upcycling really is problem-solving at the end of the day. I think a lot of the time people see it on a very one-off scale, but it definitely is something that's becoming, you know, more popular to try to figure out at a larger scale, and it's not gonna, you know, happen overnight. I think that's something I was listening on the past panel that just happened was so incredible. It's really just trying to figure out as many solutions as possible for this waste stream. Trying to think more localized. I'm thinking back to when I was living in New York and there was just warehouses and pallets of clothes that were meant to be in some of the local thrift stores that would never, ever see the floor.
You start to think back to like, "Okay, how did we get here? And can brands start to take responsibility for some of those pieces that they've made?" Introducing like a take-back program and, you know, some type of waste stream that ends up being a lot better of an alternative than just always constantly flowing into these thrift stores, which end up getting just sent around the world, which is, you know, super unsustainable. I think it's really just trying to figure out how we can localize it, get it into the hands of people that need it, whether that is just, you know, wearing, like, wearable clothes and not having to upcycle them at all.
you know, I'm always trying to connect larger brands with smaller designers because I'm only one person and I can use up as much as I possibly can. you know, are there schools, are there universities that could benefit from some of these things? also trying to figure out, you know, working with these brands at the root of it and being like, "You really need to have some type of stream, waste stream of the product that you've made and take responsibility for that and use that again, so it doesn't end up in these places.
We've seen some brands starting to design clothes with end of life in mind. Designing things that are easier to take apart, easier to upcycle, incorporating recyclability and biodegradability. What has the process of upcycling taught you about how to responsibly make clothes in the first place?
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's really been like actually step one was just learning how clothes were made. I'd say that has been such an amazing skill to have and to understand like the process of things, because it really gives you more of an appreciation for the clothes that you have. But then also kind of realizing like if you're cutting a pattern out of a roll of fabric, the amount of waste that's just coming right off that roll onto a factory floor, that's actually quite alarming. So creating patterns that have very minimal waste or no waste would be ideal. Thinking obviously about the fibers that you're using, can you source things as ethically as possible when you're starting from scratch?
I think a lot of the time in the past, we hadn't really thought about those things when we were creating clothes. There's always a lot of budgetary constraints when you're a designer within a company, and you have to be able to, you know, create a piece with under a certain amount of money. I think it's being able to invest into better fibers, recycled fibers, and then also just like the whole process from start to finish. I mean, I'm always thinking about, you know, the factory workers, the waste runoff that's coming within the factories, but then also you're shipping things around the world in plastic. You really have to kind of think about the entire thought, like the process from start to finish. For me, designing for deconstruction has been a huge part of my work.
I really think about what this piece could be after I've made it. I'm really, you know, through the whole process, I'm like, "Okay, if I put a seam here, it actually would be a lot easier to take apart in the end versus if I put it here, or does this piece really need, you know, this extra hardware that's gonna take more time to be able to take apart." Just being super mindful in your process of designing.
You actually take apart a lot of your items afterwards, right? Like turn the pieces into something new.
Yeah. I think that's something that people don't really always know about my work, but a lot of the time for me, it's a fun exploration. It's usually just a one of one piece, and it's me trying to utilize any of this waste that's coming from my own house or my friends or a company. I design to make a piece to understand the process of what it took to be able to make it, and then shortly afterwards, take it apart. I know that always kind of sometimes it upsets people because they'll see it on Instagram or TikTok and they'll be like, "Oh, I wanna buy this." I'm actually trying to do the opposite effect and, you know, show people the possibilities versus wanting to create more of a consumerism mindset.
It is a really great challenge to be able to push myself to take something apart after. It kind of takes me away from the feeling of like I need to keep everything.
Yeah, like moving away from that ownership consumption mentality towards more of an appreciation, almost an art type mentality.
Yeah.
When you're working with bigger brands like PUMA, what more could they be doing to kind of move beyond one-off projects or pilot projects that exist on the sidelines of their business model? How could this have a bigger impact?
I think upcycling at scale is kind of what I'm trying to tackle or what I've been really trying to tackle from a corporate level because it's a lot easier for me to say like, make a one of one piece or make one-off collections of like a small capsule. In reality, you know, we're gonna need to do a lot more than that to be able to use up all this stuff. I always really love to come into brands and start with samples. That's a huge waste issue that a lot of people don't really get to see.
Just coming from my time within corporate, I just realized like, okay, wow, there's, you know, boxes and boxes of one half pair of shoes that are just sitting and collecting dust and then ultimately end up getting shredded because they're just, you know, taking up space. Then also when you're just thinking about warehouses and boxes of clothes that are sitting in a warehouse, a lot of the time it costs more money for them to store versus trying to find a way to use it, so they will just destroy it. For me, it's an opportunity to be able to come in and say, "Okay, you have a box of this amount of samples. Can we use this as a project?
Like just a pilot project to show, you know, we have 10 pairs of sample shoes, half shoes, but what can we turn this into? If you're thinking about a warehouse that's holding maybe 2,000 pairs of shoes, we can try to find a way to scale it there and try to, you know, do it in a way that's the most sustainable, the most local, so it's not being shipped all over the place. Yeah, that's been kind of like my goal as of recent and kind of as where I see my work going, is really just to be able to try to help find creative solutions for this leftover material.
I think something that got brought up in the last panel was about the take back programs, just trying to reiterate the fact that like you can sort of think about that as you will in like a store setting if there is an opportunity to bring clothing back into the store. It always poses a lot of challenges when it comes to, you know, other brands like, you know, people just bringing in whatever they have into the store that has a take back program. That's something that I've definitely encountered a lot with brands that have tried to implement it. It's, you know, trying to find ways of, you know, creating a more uniform approach where people can bring in anything and it doesn't just have to be that specific brand.
That's something that I've been working towards as well.
Mm-hmm. Sustainability and upcycling at scale is going to require so many more people to be skilled in the type of thing that you do. I know you've been leading some design workshops with PUMA on upcycling. What advice would you give to people who want to try this themselves?
Yes. I mean, I think everyone can get involved in this. I think the workshops have been such an amazing part of this, exploration for me, just to be able to work with a lot of interesting people, get a lot of people together in a room, and collaboration, as we know, is really the solution for a lot of things, is getting a lot of different types of people together as well, not just designers or sustainability experts. We need the opinions of everyone. Everyone experiences waste and runoff in some type of way in their own lives. I always suggest for people to first take a look at their closet, see the things that they have. You know, get inspired by the stuff that you've kept.
There's something that I always think about is we tend to hang on to things that, you know, that have been a part of our lives in some way, and we're not always, like, ready to give them up. What is it about those things? Why have you kept them for so long? And is there a way that you can try to find a way to use them again? That's always a great suggestion. I think clothing customization is always a really good thing to think about. Can you take something that maybe doesn't fit you anymore the way that you would like to, or does it have a hole or a patch? Learning new skills is such a great opportunity to be able to keep your clothing going.
Yeah, I mean, I think just having that creative inspiration to wanna try to make things work the best that they can and keep the life going as long as possible.
Amazing. Just very quickly before we run out of time, you said earlier that upcycling is basically just problem-solving, and I'm sure that means that failure is a kind of critical part of the process. Can you tell us something surprising maybe, or a time that upcycling hasn't quite turned out the way that you wanted?
It's kind of an everyday occurrence for me. I have to pivot a lot. I'm always trying to, you know, keep an open mind when going into projects, but a lot of the time things don't always work out the way that I want them to. I tend to use a lot of strange materials like food. For me, food is very sacred and I never wanna create a piece that could not be eaten after. I never use glue, or I never use any harmful materials. For me, I'm trying to find different ways of using, like, fishing lines and hand-sewing pieces of thread and being able to create a project and then be able to eat it for lunch.
I've found that some foods are just super difficult to work with, and then others are sometimes very surprising and are very malleable and easy to use. I have found that baguettes and bread are quite heavy if you start stacking them and try to make a vest out of them. Yeah, it's always every day is an interesting learning curve for me because every project is just so different.
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for joining us. Thank you everyone for listening.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much. One more time, please can you put your hands together for Bianca, Bella, and Nicole. Thank you so much. God bless that internet connection. I think we all thought at some point that was gonna go down, but it didn't. I've just been told that we've got a panel coming up with someone who's joining us that wasn't originally planned, but she will be joining. She's a friend of mine, and she's absolutely amazing. I implore you to stay put. Oscar-nominated actress Naomie Harris is gonna be joining us for one of our panels shortly. Please stick around. Okay. Are you ready for another conversation? Yes or no? Yes? Yes? Yes. You sound tired, which is ridiculous considering how much free food and drink you've had. She's finished her sandwich. Thank the Lord.
If you need another one for energy, it's free and it's just over there. Are you ready for another conversation? There we are. Okay. Next up, we are gonna be talking materials. Before Bianca guides us through, check this out.
I've had this piece in my closet for almost 10 years now, and I remember it being more expensive than what I'd normally spend and thinking, "I really need to make this last." It made me think about how remarkable it is that it's landed in my wardrobe. The journey the fabric goes on, where it comes from, the impact it makes, what it's made of, and the roles different people play along the way. When I bought this, there was no discussion about sustainability. If it did come up, you'd think scratchy fabrics, not fashion. It blows my mind how far things have come. Take this AIR-INK T-shirt. It's made from using a new technology that creates ink from air pollution. These cork shoes are made of, well, actual wine corks. This sweater is made of ethical cashmere wool.
Reminds me that not all material needs to be recycled. Natural fibers actually break down really easily. Today, being eco-conscious doesn't mean sacrificing style for sustainability. I'm never going to stop caring about what I wear, where it comes from, and where it goes next.
Thank you very much for that, Monika. Monika will be joining me on stage very shortly. Before we welcome our next panelist, I kinda wanted to just talk about my own story for the past 10 years and how sustainable fashion has moved in that time. I started doing my influencing and blogging, what, 10 years ago. I did work with fast fashion brands, but over that kind of time, I've changed my mindset and looked and educated myself, and that's why platforms like this are so important, so we're just grateful to see you guys here. I'd like to welcome up the next lot of panelists. Joining me on stage will soon be Monika Poppy, sustainable influencer. Howard Williams, Director of Global Innovation, Apparel, PUMA.
Mohammed Jabbar, MD of DBL Group. Ashley Gill, Chief Strategy Officer of Textile Exchange, and Dana Schou, Director of Development at Global Fashion Agenda. Come on up, guys. Thank you all for joining me for my second panel. We've moved over here this time. As always, if you guys are at home and you do want to ask a question, please feel free to do so and use the hashtag #PUMACOP, and then I will be going to a Q&A at the end. For those of you in the room, just raise your hand as we said before. Let's get started. Howard, why is PUMA focusing on materials? Why is it important?
Great question. Basically in apparel, materials are 50% of the product, at least.
Yeah.
Sometimes up to 70%, depending on the size of the garment. Materials are obvious choice to focus on sustainability, and it's also the area of a product which the general public relates to quite easily. They know what cotton is, they know what polyester is, they know what wool is. It's something they sort of relate to quite quickly.
Mm-hmm.
That's where we target working on sustainability.
Anybody else? Why are materials, sorry, so important? Why should we be focusing on them?
I'll jump in here.
Yeah. Go for it.
Textile Exchange is a nonprofit that actually focuses on the fiber and material part of the supply chain. We've been working with brands and suppliers and raw material producers for a number of years to transition to a more sustainable usage of materials. We think that starting with materials is a good idea, both for the reasons that Howard mentioned. It can take up anywhere from 30%-45% of a product's overall footprint, depending on what type of material it is, what type of product it is. But another really important reason to start with materials is that this is where the product starts. It starts at the farm. It starts at, in some cases, fossil fuel extraction. We feel like this is a great analogy for the foundation of transitioning to an overall sustainable business. Materials are the foundation.
It's a great way to introduce yourself to where your product is actually coming from, and the people and the environments that it are part of that throughout the way.
No, definitely. I love that. That's a really nice way of putting it, so thank you. Mohammed, can you tell us about the recycling of cotton, please?
Well, thank you. Cotton can be recycled, and we are doing it in DBL. It is like recycling paper. In the recycling process, the cotton fiber get cut into pieces, and if you add more recycled content, then quality may suffer. For you know, just securing the quality, we are limiting the percentage of recycled cotton to approximately 20% within the garments. Another aspect is dyes. In recycling process, dyes cannot be removed. For recycling cotton, so the cotton fiber should be separated by color. Another way recycling can, I mean, it can be recycled to other products like, you know.
It can be recycled to viscose or viscose-like materials. Here, the cotton can be dissolved into pulp and then respinning the fiber. Respinning the new fiber from this pulp. Yeah.
No, fantastic. It's a very lengthy process, I'm sure. I'm glad that you raised something on dyes there because we spoke about that on the previous panel where dyes can't be recycled, so it makes the process much more lengthy.
Mm-hmm.
Dana, I just wanted to pose a question to you and say: How do you see the upscaling of recycled materials such as cotton, as Mohammed said, developing within the fashion industry?
Yeah. Thank you for the question. Global Fashion Agenda is a nonprofit organization that mobilizes, educates, and encourages the industry to collaborate toward a net positive fashion industry.
Yeah.
An interesting fact is less than 1% of textiles produced are currently recycled into new ones. Out of all the recycled materials today, only a small amount are actually made from textiles. A lot of the other is plastic bottles, which is quite surprising. We heard from the previous panel that brands have made massive commitments to commit to recycled materials. I think we heard PUMA saying up to 100% of recycled materials. However, there's a huge gap right now between brands' commitments and the actual availability of the recycled materials. At Global Fashion Agenda, we've focused on a solution to increase the availability of recycled materials through our Circular Fashion Partnership we launched in Bangladesh two years ago, and we're upscaling to three more countries and manufacturing countries. Basically, what we do is we map the pre-consumer waste.
We heard the definition of that, earlier on the panel, post-industrial waste, pre-consumer waste. We recycle that waste, and then we redistribute the recycled material to manufacturers. The Circular Fashion Partnership has demonstrated the business opportunity of scaling recycling technologies. We've found that the fashion industry can actually become 80% circular by 2030 with the right investment. Of course, we need to actually scale the recycling technologies. With the brands' demand, which we know that we have, plus the actual access to the waste, we can create a really compelling business opportunity for investors.
That is a staggering fact point, like 80% by 2030 with the right investment obviously. When you think about it, 2030 isn't that far away.
Eight years to go.
It's not that far at all.
Yeah.
More to the point on like materials and things and fibers and how we make the composition of clothing. Traditionally, over the past sort of 50, 60 years, polyester has been such a huge component in clothing. I think if you look at anything over the past 20 years, you will be able to see on that care label, there's definitely some polyester in most of clothes that we all wear. Howard, can you talk us through the process of how polyester is made and how have you been able to make it more, I wanna say quote-unquote sustainable?
Basically, polyester is made from two components. One is ethylene glycol and the other is terephthalic acid, and they're put together and there's condensation, and you get polymerization of the polymer.
Okay.
That can be transformed through extrusion into fibers, into filaments, and then made into spinning process through to fabrics and garments. What we're trying to do with the recycling side of it is reverse that process.
Okay.
We collect polyester waste.
Mm-hmm.
garment, used garments, cuttings from the garment-making process, and we depolymerize the polyester to produce like a polyester soup. Any of the color that's in the fabric will be in the soup, and then we filter the soup out to get clear polyester and then we can re-extrude that into brand new virgin polyester again. As Anne mentioned before in the previous panel, this process is infinite. We can go round and round and round again 'cause we're breaking the polyester down into its building blocks and then recombining it and once we've taken the dye out.
I'm not gonna lie, that doesn't sound very appetizing. Nobody wants sweet polyester soup at all. That's really interesting, though. Is there a difference? I mean, could you maybe explain and go into a little bit more detail about the difference between virgin polyester and recycled, just so that the audience can get a further understanding.
Basically the building blocks of polyester are fossil fuels. The fossil-based comes from petroleum.
Yeah.
They're combined. For the recycling, you're taking finished polyester and reversing the process back to its building blocks.
Okay, cool.
You're actually really recycling it again.
Yeah.
Rather than taking fresh.
Yeah.
fossil-based chemicals.
Fantastic. No, thank you. I just wanted to give a bit of clarity again. We're trying to make it as easy and attainable for everybody to understand. Ashley, what change are you seeing that's really exciting you within this industry?
Yeah. I've been with the organization for 12 years. I've actually been in the textile industry my whole life. My family are cotton farmers in West Texas. Through that process, both from my background and also from the work that we've been doing, learning about what makes a material preferred has been kind of the foundation of the work that we do to define those production systems that, as Howard mentioned, the status quo today is land degradation, it's pollution. There are a lot of things that can be done to change those production systems. Our evolving of understanding what changes need to happen is, I think, what's exciting to me.
We at Textile Exchange define a preferred material as one that reduces and avoids harm, but also that can drive and deliver long-term impacts and outcomes like better soil, better water, all of those types of things. The other thing that we do as an organization is we track and monitor the usage of preferred materials over time. Whenever I first started, we were really focusing on organic cotton and just starting to focus on some of these other materials. We've seen enormous growth through the past decade of increases in the use of preferred materials. Actually, PUMA is one of the leaders in our Material Change Index, which tracks the usage of preferred materials. They're in the top 10. Close to their goal of 100% preferred cotton.
Seeing that kind of change is they'll have to go, because while organic cotton has grown, it's actually stayed flat as a percentage, because the amount of cotton that has increased is also grown significantly. Recycled polyester is growing, but it's still a small percentage, somewhere around 10%-14% of polyester. Howard talked about textile-to-textile recycling, which is fantastic, but that's a very small percentage of the amount of recycled polyester. Most of that is bottle to bottle. Means that if we're gonna continue driving, we need to increase the scale, but we also need to increase the use of natural materials that are grown and produced in balance with nature. We need to avoid or eliminate virgin fossil fuel materials, and we need to increase textiles.
Now, moving on just slightly. Monika, you and I have done this for about 10 years now, been in this kind of influencer bubble for a little while now. I don't know about you. Sustainability as like stylish.
As you were mentioning, 10 years ago really was like the, I remember when I first started to think about dressing there wasn't really much to go from. The first thought that came to mind when you thought about sustainable fashion was, you know, okay, potato sack or am I gonna dress, you know.
That was always my thought. I was like, "Oh my God, I've got to wear a load of hemp." I'm gonna have to wear.
Right?
Potato sack all the time.
You know, just being dressed like, I don't know, kind of a hippie vibe, which there is absolutely nothing wrong with. My mom dresses like a hippie. You know, props to her. As you said, if you wanted to be more seen as stylish or sexy or whatever, it was really, really hard, you know? Also just to get people to understand what sustainability meant was really, really difficult. Now we are extremely spoiled for choice. There is so much out there now. Say that, you know, first find out what is your style. I think that is super important in staying sustainable. You have to know what your style is so that you're not constantly giving in to micro trends. Once you know your style, you can start to look for sustainable alternatives.
That means sustainable materials, sustainable brands, sustainable buys, or buying secondhand. When you know your style, it's much, much easier to do so.
I think once you figure out your style, then you can start buying sustainably a lot easier and just, you know, research. Right now, anything you can search for, you can basically search, okay, sustainable alternative, and something will come up.
Which is great. Which is amazing.
Yeah, definitely. I think for me it was seeing over the past couple of years that even the style changed, and you raised that point. It was like wearing. My vision of sustainability way back when was wearing like a muumuu or something like that. Just like essentially a house dress is what I was thinking. Now you can have style, like this is from a slow fashion brand, and I can wear something that is my style and is cool and as Reggie said, great outfit. Yeah, thanks, babes. To be able to wear something like this and still feel stylish and know that I'm not impacting the environment in such a negative way is a huge bonus. Thank you for that. Moving on.
Howard, what success have you had kind of with material innovation beyond what we discussed with the recycled polyester and things like that?
There's a number of projects that we're working on at PUMA at the moment. I think one of the most exciting ones is we're developing plastic-free products, where we've taken out the polyester from the fabrics and the sewing threads and the care labels and the embellishments, and we're replacing those with man-made cellulosic fiber. We've got like a mono material. Two things. One is it's easy, much easier to recycle, so we've got that sort of ease of recycling sort of in the process. Also we're not putting plastic into our garments anymore. Therefore we're not contributing to ocean plastic.
Yeah.
We're sort of killing two birds with one stone.
Not just that. I guess also the microplastics that I think Izzy raised on the previous panel. You don't wanna be, as you're washing something, every item of clothing, it like putting the plastic into the fiber. I guess you're mitigating that on another side.
Correct.
You're thinking about the afterlife of a product.
Yes
You're doing that as well.
Absolutely.
Anything else?
A number of other things. One thing comes to mind is, as my colleague from DBL mentioned earlier about recycling cotton. Using colored cotton waste is a problem because it's got a color and so it impacts what you can put it into. We color sort the cutting waste.
Mm.
blend it with fiber dyed virgin cotton and blend the two together to come up with an overall color shade of our standard colors of PUMA color palette. These are sort of long-term colors that don't change season after season. We can offer it in stock lots, maybe 10 tons.
It'll last a season. It'll all be the same color.
Fantastic.
We're sharing those with the design teams so that we can generate more sustainable cotton fabrics using colored recycled cotton.
That's fantastic because essentially you're slowing down the production process and slowing down the amount, the scale at which you're producing, I should say.
Another way to sort of look at it is that, you know, 20%-25% of our waste that we put into the yarn.
Mm.
is already dyed.
Yeah.
We're using 20% less dyestuffs, 20% less chemicals to produce our cotton fabrics. It sort of goes at one level. It's sort of a hybrid, sustainable cotton.
Fantastic. Mohammed, we were talking about polyester and how we can use cotton on all these things just now. From a production point of view, what's the biggest opportunity in the kind of material space right now?
Well, this is like in our facility, like we have every day 15 tons of cutting waste. What we are doing now, we recycle it 100%.
Did you say 15 tons of cutting waste?
Per cut in our facility.
Wow. That's
Because we produce 130 tons fabric a day.
Wow!
Now, you know, this is like all the cotton fabric, I mean cutting waste, we are recycling it. This is a good thing that. Other, the color we separate it, as Howard explained. Besides that, we are using the recycled polyester out of PET bottle.
Oh, wow.
It is PSF, polyester staple fiber. We get it from the PET bottle. You know, by this request, we also use recycled polyester. We are using also dope-dyed polyester, which really help to reduce carbon emission.
It has got less wastage. I mean also we are using CD polyester, cationic dyeable polyester. Which usually regular polyester takes to dye 135 degrees Celsius for dyeing process. CD polyester that you can dye 110 degrees Celsius. It really save lot of energy.
Oh, fantastic.
This is good and also we are using Recycrom dyes. Recycrom dyes is extracted from the cotton cuttings. We have started using it, and we also use the dyes from mushrooms and seaweed.
Oh-
These are really adopting it, and mostly this industry in Bangladesh is transforming towards recycling and energy efficiency. We have like more than 150 LEED certified industry and green industry, most of them. Government has given certain policy reforms that get incentives for this. People are leveraging it, and for some factory they are doing it, you know, for the good reason. I see that as the way the industry is growing towards sustainability. I think that Bangladesh government strategy will be a good position for this future.
Yeah.
-challenge.
Definitely agree with you, and I think.
Thank you.
It was so important what you just said there, 'cause you've said that it's going on across the industry, and I think the only way that we're going to make that lasting change is to do it at scale.
Mm.
Moving on. Ashley, your organization's mission to create leaders in preferred fiber and materials industry, what role do these materials play in reducing the carbon emissions that Mohammed was talking about? What are you kind of seeing going on?
Textile Exchange in the last couple of years has announced a new strategy, which if you know us, you've probably heard us talk about it. We are aiming to help drive the industry on the path to a 45% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030. This is backed by science, by global boundaries. This is what we know needs to happen in order to prevent global warming. This has actually really energized us as an organization because I think what I talked about before, this definition of preferred, it's really easy to think about, okay, I have a choice between virgin polyester or recycled. Obviously, I'm gonna choose recycled. I have a choice between conventional cotton, organic cotton. Definitely organic is the right choice. Having a definition of preferred allows you to make those kinds of choices.
The thing that it led us to is also to think about the entire system. Are those changes, those substitutions that we're asking the industry to make, are those actually going to be enough to get us to that 45% reduction? We've looked at the numbers, and Anne-Laure mentioned in the previous panel that we do a lot of validation. We do a lot of data collection to actually track what's really happening. What the data shows us is the answer is no. It's not going to be enough to just swap out what materials exist now for the materials that exist now that are better. We need to continue improving.
For Textile Exchange, the three levers that we have identified that we think will actually get the industry to that 45% reduction goal is, yes, material substitution, choosing materials that are better, like organic, like recycled. We also think innovation is going to be key, to continue the reductions in the materials that we're using today, to continue using technology that allows those greenhouse gas emissions to continue to fall, to develop new materials, that are from substances that maybe we haven't typically seen in shoes or in clothing. The third thing is to slow down growth. If we continually use more and more new materials to make our products, we're just making that goal that we're setting for ourselves neat.
Textile Exchange really believes that slowing down growth, using less new materials to make the products that we love is going to have to be part of that pathway to 45%.
That's really fantastic. As you were saying that, I was sitting here thinking, "This is phenomenal." I know that we're talking about it on a larger scale. I just wanna bring the point maybe slightly left and think about it in terms of small businesses.
Mm-hmm.
How do they then achieve these goals and these lower carbon emissions if you're a smaller brand with possibly not the same amount of capital or assets behind you to be able to invest in these innovations? What can they do?
One of the things that is unique, I think about our organization and also just the, kind of where sustainability is today, is there's a lot more conversations happening between companies that maybe traditionally were competitors and also between people who are in different parts of the supply chain. Our organization was one of the first to bring farmers and brands around the same table together. I think as a small business, you have an even bigger opportunity and even maybe slightly easier chance to get to know your suppliers and to build relationships with the people that are selling you your fabric, potentially to find out where that fabric is coming from. Those types of relationships. You know, we do certification, we do verification. That's been my background. I will tell you it's really important. It does not replace a relation.
Small companies, small businesses have that opportunity just as much as large companies do.
No, that's fantastic. Thank you for answering that. Yeah, 'cause it's a passion of mine. I wanna know how we can affect that change within smaller growing businesses. More to that point, Monikka, we've spoken about kind of the industry side of it, but what are you hearing when it comes to, like, your audience and some of your audience may even be in this room and their awareness on the points that both Dana and Ashley have highlighted?
I think the number one thing is communication, right? They wanna understand what kind of materials are better, not just how they're made, but how are they better. So if you, for instance, put up cotton and then organic cotton, how is it better? What's the impact difference? I can also speak from my own personal experience. I started off with oil and gas management. I studied oil and gas, which is, you know, a complete U-turn. The reason of that U-turn was because I studied renewable energy. Within that course, we had to talk about innovative materials and alternatives. When I saw the alternatives, I was like, "Okay, I'd rather do this." Then I turned towards sustainability.
When you actually communicate as a brand, this is what we're doing, but how is that going to impact your choices, what this is? I think that's really key because that's the question I get asked all the time is: Is it greenwashing? How can I know it's not greenwashing? What are they doing? What's the difference? And also, if I do something, is it gonna make a difference at all? Because a lot of times people feel like, okay, this is such a minor difference, and is it even a difference because you put green or conscious on the label? I think labeling and actually giving the right information to consumers is super important.
Also encouraging that, you know, small steps do make a difference because your small step is essentially funding a supply chain and people that really put so much effort into creating new materials. You are funding that through buying something that is sustainably progressive rather than I don't like to say sustainable because it's such a double-edged sword. Sustainably progressive, are you actually choosing to support the people that were behind this material, not just the brand that brought it to the market? Yeah.
Yeah. Just before we move on to the questions from Slido and to the audience, can you just give a quick overview as to what greenwashing is, please?
Greenwashing is when a brand, say, claims that they are sustainable in some way, and we've even touched on it before.
Yeah.
That may mean 1% of something is slightly recycled or just their, I don't know, packaging is recyclable. That's it. Their packaging, not even the whole product itself or anything. That's what people see as greenwashing and when we want to avoid that, we want to give like a full view of exactly what we're doing, how it's better, and it's usually more than 1%, obviously.
Yeah.
It has to be a lot more than that. When greenwashing is that people just use these big words like green, conscience, eco-friendly, whatever that means, instead of giving actual facts to how it's better.
Yeah, definitely. We're gonna move on to the questions from Slido and some questions from you guys here, and then I'll add a few more in and we'll just continue the conversation. To all the panelists, what do you see as the biggest barriers for preventing waste within PUMA and its supply chain? Whoever wants to take it.
I'll start with that one.
Yeah.
I think it's basically getting the suppliers, you know, T1, T2 suppliers and possibly T3 to think about how they can recycle the waste they've got from the factory. Quite often they rely upon waste management companies just to come and sort of empty the bins, and it's sort of out of sight, out of mind.
Yeah.
This is quite often downcycled and not upcycled or just burnt off in incineration. It's really if we're gonna change the way we sort of manage our waste is to encourage our Tier 1 and Tier 2s to think about how their product can be recycled and upcycled.
Ensuring that at every stage of the supply chain.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
What's interesting, I visited DBL Group in Bangladesh three years ago, and they were just putting together a pilot small machine to recycle their cutting waste. I was there two weeks ago, and now they've got this huge factory. It's like 10,000 sq ft, brand new sort of recycling equipment, and now it's fully operational.
Fantastic.
It's just incredible. Gone from a sort of the kernel of an idea to sort of like full scale.
This is what I think it takes. It's all of us working on something, trialing it, and increasing and improving.
Yeah.
The process. Dana Schou, just quickly. Ooh, the heavens have opened. Why does the industry have to work together to achieve large scale recycling or even net positive in net positive industry?
Yeah. Systemic change isn't achievable, as we heard earlier, by one actor alone. We need everybody from the value chain to come together. We need brands, we need manufacturers, we need recyclers, we even need waste collectors and sorters. But we also need an enabling environment which is made possible by policymakers as well.
You know, truly to have this change at a systems level, we need collaboration, especially to meet the future demand that we see, and that has to be in line with the Paris Agreement, sort of 1.5 degree pathway.
Yeah, definitely. We've got another question from Slido. This one's specifically to Monika. What are the key things you consider when buying clothes?
Oh, I'll tell you, the number one thing is quality, because I always think of a product lifecycle, so whatever that may be. You touched on it before. How nice is it to go through your mother's closet, your father's closet, any relative, and get nice hand-me-downs? For that, quality is key. So whenever I buy something, I always think, "Okay, once I'm done with this, who is it going to go to? Will it last?" Usually, if it's bad quality, no one's that excited to, you know, receive a really badly, poorly made item. You know, can you imagine in 20 years giving it to your kids or whatever, something that's really poorly made? Quality for me is always 100% key, whether I buy from sustaina-
Quality over quantity. That's what we say. We've got another one from Slido to anybody. From PUMA, so I'm guessing, Howard, you'll take this one. Do you plan to scale up the RE:JERSEY project?
Absolutely.
Okay, perfect. Next question.
Yeah, we started a year ago when we did 400 kg. Last month, we did 20 tons. We now see there's a growing appetite for this recycled product from garment to garment. We're looking at ways of how we can scale things up. Scalability is proving to be quite a challenge. It's to find the capacities that are available today. We've got various industries involved. We're sort of overlapping into the plastics industry. We're looking for depolymerization and repolymerization to capacity. And then there's collection.
Fantastic.
The problem is that the scale of flow of materials is very different. You've got takeback schemes, you've got collection processes, which is more like a drip feed. You're collecting this, and then when you go to recycling, it's 20 tons. Sort of start, stop, start, stop, collect and start. Honestly, we're making good inroads into this whole sort of supply chain of feedstock. Our aspirations are, I think in two or three years' time, we want to get up to be able to produce something like 4 million garments a year.
Fantastic
... using the RE:JERSEY process.
Fantastic. Now that'll be amazing. I'd like to put it to the audience. Has anybody got a question? If you'd like to raise your hand. Anyone, don't be shy. Oh, we've got one over here.
This is sort of a little bit on the back of the first panel as well, but relevant for the recycling materials question. Have you ever considered collaborating on a large scale with other brands? There's a lot of take back schemes in store which rely on customers actually bringing clothing to you, and ideally, they have to be your own brands. In terms of the consumer environment and kind of democratizing recycling clothing and textile, if all of the big brands got together and actually created a proper recycling program, also possibly in relation with councils and things like that, to properly take back clothing, you'd have much less drip feed coming in and clothing recycling happening potentially on a mass scale in order to help to upscale some of these recycling institutions as well. Is that something you'd consider?
Again, absolutely. I think there's a number of points in your question. I think first of all, PUMA have entered into a consortium with four other brands, with Carbios, who was on stage earlier, for enzymatic recycling of polyester. We're partnering with Patagonia, with Salomon, with On Running, and soon to be some accessory suppliers. Working together, we hope we can achieve scale and size. In terms of take-back schemes, we've just started to look into the upstream supply of feedstocks, and couldn't agree more that working together. We've contracted I:CO in Germany, who H&M use and a few other brands use as well. We've agreed to take feedstock from them.
I think now the challenges for all the brands is to secure feedstock 'cause the demand is there, the appetite is there. It's just, is the supply there? We're looking at various different channels to secure the feedstock. I think there's a bit of a scrum going on at the moment, both for polyester and for cotton.
Fantastic. For our final question, I'm gonna go back to Slido, but it said to the panelist, but I'm gonna direct it to you, Monika. What do you consider a sustainable product?
A sustainable product falls into two categories for me. Either it's something that comes from a secondhand market. That means that the product life cycle is long enough for me to consider it sustainable. It's not just one person that's used it. The other way is like sustainable materials, innovation, sourcing. However it's done, either through a brand that positioned themself as being sustainable or, a sustainable purchase, which is through using materials that are more innovative. I think when you do that, as a consumer, you are signaling, which is really important to the industry, that this is what I want to buy from, and you are helping funding innovation that we've talked about before, because innovation really is key.
When you buy into sustainability, when it comes to materials, you are really helping funding the progress of innovation. I think that's how I think about it.
Fantastic. I'd like to just thank you all for your time, and thank you for joining us, and if we'd like to give them all a massive round of applause.
Thank you. One more time for our last panel, please. That was fantastic. Come on. Let's keep it going. Okay. We are about to take a very short break. If you're a cigarette smoker, good luck because the heavens have opened. We're gonna take a short break for 5-10 minutes, no more than that. When we return, wait, we ain't finished just yet. Where are you going? When we return, I'm literally out shaming you. You're literally trying to leave. Sorry about that. When we return, Miss Moneyp enny herself, Naomie Harris, Oscar-nominated actress, will be joining us. Really looking forward to hearing what she has to say. Ade will be back on the stage as well as Jack Harries, and we're gonna be talking about turning anxiety into action.
Now, for those of you online, hello to the cameras. Hello to our friends online. We will be back in 5-10 minutes time and, don't go anywhere. Remember, if you've got any questions for us, fire them in. For you guys here in the room, there are two places that you can go to. I'm losing you. You could go to the T-shirt printing room, and you can also check out those immersive experiences as well. We'll see you in 5-10, all right? Thank you. Hello, everyone. Welcome back. Hello. From the sound of things, you guys enjoyed your break. Hopefully you're all with us. Are we all watered and fed? Has everyone had a drink? Everyone engaged in the free cookies and sandwiches, yes?
Yes.
Sandwich girl, have you had another sandwich? That's a lie. We know it's a lie. Okay, let's find our seats, people, and let's get right back to it. Now, for all of us, watching online at the moment, hello, wherever you are in the world. Thank you very much for joining us. Now remember, we need you to send in your questions. You can do so, by simply typing your questions in the question box. For anyone in the room that doesn't wanna go old school and put their hands up, you can type in your question by just simply accessing the question boxes via the QR code, on stage. Right, time for another panel.
I figure now's the chance to probably check and see just how many of you are still with us, how many of you aren't chatting over me chatting, and how many of you aren't suffering from the itis. The lady at the back in the green who's having a chat with her mate who's eating a sandwich, are you ready for the next panel? Yes? She didn't even hear what I said. She's checking her phone. Are you lot ready for the next panel at the back? Hello.
Is everyone in the front ready for the next panel?
Good, 'cause you're in it, so you better be ready. Okay, now, if you have watched the news recently and felt pretty helpless, it's totally understandable, because we've seen wildfires, we've seen floods and everything in between. That feeling has a name, and that name is climate anxiety or eco-anxiety. New words to my vocabulary. We're about to have a panel about it, and the man leading it has an incredible reputation, which I'm desperate to squash 'cause he's a terrible human being. He is an incredible pickpocket. He stole his MBE. He definitely didn't deserve it. No, I'm joking. This man and I started working together nearly two decades ago and he's one of the most solid human beings you'll ever meet. You'll meet Ade very, very soon. First and foremost, have a look at this VT.
I remember when I was growing up, I'd come to this field all the time. My mom would bring paints, and we'd sit there for hours. I'd use my little hands to spread colors across the bits of paper. One of my favorite things to paint was butterflies. They'd be everywhere in spring, so many, and it was so exciting as a kid. The population has declined drastically in the past couple of years. Sometimes it's the little things I notice, the memories that if I have children, they won't get to hold on to. Anxiety about the environment and climate change, the fires, the floods, the erosion, the pollution, the landfills. It's always been there in the back of my mind. It's these little things, that's what makes me act. That's what makes me want to go out there and passionately fight for the planet.
What I really love about that film is the fact that it's personal. It's personal. You know, it speaks to all of our vulnerabilities because what happens to our planet affects us all. Eco-anxiety is real, you know, but it shouldn't be something that holds us back. You know, if we are able to channel and use the emotions that it elicits in the right way, you know, it can be a catalyst for action. This next panel is all about turning anxiety into action. Are we ready for this?
Yeah.
Come on, let's do this. Let's change things up. Stopping me from being anxious and feeling lonely on the stage, can we have a massive welcome to our special guests today? First up, we have Ade.
Broadcaster, filmmaker, and co-founder of Earthrise Studio, Mr. Jack Harries. Yes, brother. Next up, we want a very, very warm welcome. She stepped in at the last minute, so guys, we wanna be really loud for her. Please, it's critically acclaimed Oscar, Golden Globe, and BAFTA-nominated actress, Naomie Harris OBE. Welcome, welcome. You know, thank you both for joining me on stage. You know, as we've seen in that film and everyone here can attest to, eco-anxiety is something that impacts us all emotionally. Both of you, if you could maybe talk to us about the first time you felt eco-anxiety, you know, and how it impacted you. Jack.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, first of all, I'd just like to say how honored I am to be sitting next to two superstars here. It's a huge privilege.
You've seen these numbers on YouTube. Come on, bro. Come on.
That was a cool introduction. Also just to congratulate you guys for being here and engaging in these topics. They are scary, they are overwhelming, it is intimidating. For me, it's been a huge journey of learning about this topic. I'm dyslexic, numbers don't come easily to me, science wasn't my strong point at school, so it's been a challenging journey, and it's motivated me to wanna communicate it, to make it more clear and accessible to people, because if we're gonna tackle this thing, we've all gotta understand it. That's the first part of the process. For me, it started in 2015. I'd been invited to go to Greenland to make a film with the WWF about glacial retreat. At the time, I'll be honest, I didn't really know a lot about it.
I just heard trip to Greenland, and I was like, "That sounds super cool. Let's go." I spent a week there, and we camped on the Jakobshavn Glacier, which is one of the most southern glaciers in Greenland. It changed my life, that trip, because we were literally transported to the front lines of climate change. I think before that point, it had just been this kind of like, this thing I couldn't wrap my head around. Like, just this term that kinda made my brain just shut down and be like, "Well, that's scary, overwhelming." I saw it that day. You know, we
It, it-
Go on.
It's that disconnect which, because we all feel like we're so or so many of us feel like we're so far away.
Mm-hmm.
You know, sometimes it needs people like us who are so fortunate to be that conduit.
Yeah
Actually see the reality.
100%.
You know, that's when it impacts you, doesn't it?
100%. It is something, you're right, it feels like it's far away. It feels like it happens just to glaciers and to rainforests and, you know, we live in London. You go about your day-to-day life and you're like, "What does this matter for me? How does this impact my life?" I think just the last few months, we're all starting to understand how it's impacting our lives, right? Like what's happening in Pakistan right now, I think, is a huge wake-up call to all of us. The wildfires in Los Angeles. Suddenly it's starting to feel closer to home. I wanted to make it my mission to try and communicate that. I felt very privileged to go to that climate front line, to see it and hear it and experience it firsthand, and to try and communicate that.
I spent, you know, the few years since then meeting people, mostly on the front lines of climate change. I know you made an amazing series doing a similar thing, and that to me really changed my understanding of this issue as not just an environmental issue, but an issue of human rights and social justice, you know? That started to make me think about my own responsibility and my own sense of, like, guilt and shame for my part in this thing, and wanting to tell those human stories. I think ultimately, people connect to people, right? The way to communicate this is to tell those human stories, to be vulnerable, to open it up so it's relatable. That's been my journey. It's an up and down journey.
You know, I have days where I feel completely overwhelmed by it, and days where I feel completely empowered by the opportunity that's in front of us.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's been my journey.
Well, well just delving slightly deeper into this. When you meet those people, and these people's lives are often completely different to us and to ours in terms of what they have to do day to day, what they have to overcome, and it can sometimes be overwhelming when you see them. What was it like for you hearing their stories? What sort of emotions did that draw out of you?
100%. Like, the first place I think I traveled to that really changed my perception of this issue was Somaliland in 2017 during a really severe drought, and I met nomadic pastoralists, people whose livelihoods are relying on moving around cattle and farming the land. Of course, there was a huge drought, so the cattle were struggling to feed, to have water. I remember driving to this village every day and just seeing skeletons of cattle lining the roads. It was the first time I'd been confronted with the reality of what climate change means for people who are subsistence farmers, whose livelihoods are reliant on the environment. Again, living in a city, we're very detached from that, aren't we
Like, you just go get your food from a supermarket, from Pret. Well, how does it impact us if there's a drought, if there's, you know, too much rainfall? Meeting that community really made me realize that this is already a life and death reality for many people. Not only that, and we all know this, but it's the very people who've done the least to cause this crisis who are suffering the most, right? That's people living in the Global South.
Mm-hmm
You know, that experience was backed up by going to Kiribati, a low-lying island nation. I know you've been to the Solomon Islands.
Yeah
Meeting people who are living two meters above sea level, you know? I suddenly understood that those melting glaciers that seem very far away and intangible, they're contributing to sea level rise, which is threatening the livelihoods of these people I met. Suddenly you start to join the dots, and you understand that no matter where you live, all of our lives are intimately connected to the environment, even if it feels far away.
That's the link we need to make, I think, to wake up and to get this thing.
Yeah. Really good. Really important, Jack. Naomie, what about yourself? Tell me about when you first started feeling eco-anxiety.
I spoke to my sister because my sister is Gen Z. I said to her-
Gen Z's.
Since this is all about Gen Zs, you know, I wanted to understand her experience and how she felt about climate change and how she was affected by eco-anxiety, 'cause it's not something I've ever spoken to her about. She said that she's always been aware of it. There wasn't a point where she suddenly was like-
Oh my gosh, climate change, this is a new issue for me. She's always been terrified. I thought, how awful, because I have nieces growing up, I never experienced that, you know. It's this whole eco-anxiety is something that is relatively new, and I got to go through my adolescence, go through my childhood without that sense of fear about the planet and the environment and the pollution of our waters and all of these things that really we don't want children to be burdened with, but they are. Actually, you know, I thought, how awful is that? I was really terrified by hearing how much anxiety she actually has and speaking to her friends as well. I thought, you know, basically, I was oblivious when I was growing up, and how wonderful that this new generation have all this knowledge.
They're watching all these amazing documentaries by filmmakers that are amazing, like Jack, you know, that are educating them about their planet. I actually didn't have that when I was growing up. It was a very personal journey for me to really get aware about my environment. It actually started through my health because I have scoliosis. I have a metal rod that was put along my spine when I was 15 years old. I had an awful operation where I spent a month in the hospital. I had to learn to walk again, had to learn to sit up again. I had to learn all these basic things. I never took my health for granted in the way that the people that I grew up with did.
I never drank alcohol or did drugs or any of these kind of things. Also, I became obsessed with health, and I wanted to do everything I possibly could to stay healthy. That's what led me to organic food 'cause I thought, you know, I wanna put the purest possible things into my body, so I can never, ever go back to hospital, if possible. I thought, well, how is this food produced? If there's organic food, what's happening to regular food that most people are eating, and how are we treating our environment?
That was the wake-up call for me about, oh my gosh, there's this whole environment that's an industry out there that I hadn't been aware of, and there's a whole chain reaction that's happening with man at the helm and what he's doing to the environment. It terrified me. I thought, what can I do as little Naomie to make a difference at this point? That's when I became really impassioned about doing everything I possibly can to really, to reconnect with the environment because I really think that it's man's disconnection from nature that has led us to this point, and it's only through man's reconnection with nature that we're gonna solve it.
We do, you know, I do things like take off my shoes and put my feet in the earth and ground and reconnect with the earth. I go out into nature. I hug trees. People think I'm crazy. I don't care because I think that nature has a wisdom, and I really think if you're open to nature, it will speak to you and tell you how it wants to be heard, how it wants to be listened to, how it wants to be engaged with, and I think that's how we really make a difference.
When I take off my shoes, my whole family leaves the house. Everyone on the street leaves.
Do it outside, that's okay.
No one. Yeah, it's just mad. No, it's true. It is about reconnecting with the planet. It sometimes frustrates me the fact that we have to stop and think about what is so natural. What is so natural? This is our planet. For me, in terms of eco-anxiety, I think, 'cause I've traveled so much, and I'm really trying to cut it down because I've started to become so freaked out about what's happening to our planet and how much time we have left. There were a couple of moments that really struck me. There was a couple of years ago, I was in Bangladesh, and I was with a really amazing climate journalist, a guy called Tanju Rahman, and we were going along the Sundarbans.
He was telling me about this wonderful ecosystem that goes through Bangladesh to India into the Bay of Bengal, and how all the amazing things they were doing to try and help Bangladesh, you know, survive sea level rise. We had these maps of future sea level rise around the world that we wanted to show him as part of the film. I remember I hadn't seen the maps myself, and I looked at it, and I saw if we didn't change in the time that we have in the next 90 months, 120 months, that most of Bangladesh was gonna be underwater. So many places around the world were gonna be underwater. It absolutely freaked me out. What freaked me out even more was to see Tanju's response.
Mm-hmm.
The fact that he was going to lose his home.
Mm-hmm.
It made me come back to the UK. I've got a son, he's 19 months old, and I looked at him, and I just looked and just thought, "What are we doing? What are we doing?" Look at him, he's this amazing, wonderful, beautiful creature, and what are we gonna leave on this planet? It just made me so frustrated. Now, we're in the business of making people care. That's what our job's about. The thing that makes me most anxious is when people don't care. I think how I'm able to go on this journey of turning my anxiety into action is through knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
I need to know. I need to understand about our planet. I need to understand how it works, so then I can make the changes that are necessary. I think that's what today's been all about, is grasping that knowledge. Jack, how do you manage your eco-anxiety?
Imperfectly, I think. I think there is no magic solution. I think climate anxiety, eco-anxiety can look like many different things for many different people. You know, as you said, like it can be a fear and an anxiety for what's coming, what we know is coming down the line. It can be a shame and a guilt for like what's happened so far. I think above all, it can be a sense of like powerlessness and overwhelm. I know I certainly feel that on a daily basis. There are many ways that we can tackle it. I think the first thing is acknowledging it, you know, and not pathologizing it. I think so often when it comes to mental health, we pathologize it. We're like, "It's this issue we just kinda need to get rid of.
Like you're not very well, and we just need to get rid of it." It's natural and normal. I had a chance to interview an amazing psychologist earlier this year called Dr. Caroline Hickman, who's been studying climate anxiety for 10 years. She published this amazing report in The Lancet, which I recommend going and having a look at. When I interviewed her, that's what she said to me. She was like, "The first thing to say is this is a natural and normal response to the crisis we're facing." She went on to say, she just said, "In fact, I'd be worried if you weren't feeling this way.
Yes.
Like this is an existential threat.
Yeah
...to people on the planet. That's the first thing. I think we can feel guilty feeling these feelings in a weird way. The other thing I think you feel, as you said at the start, that idea of feeling lonely. You know, when I started to feel these feelings, I felt very lonely and isolated in them. You go and see friends at the pub, and you start to talk about it, and they're like, "You know, what are you on about?" "Like, you just need to get out a bit more." You're like, "But this is real, and it's scary." Finding-
It's a real party pooper, isn't it?
Yeah. You don't wanna be that guy.
Yeah. You start saying stuff, and everyone's looking at you like, "Oh, here we go.
I know.
Oh, it's the climate crisis guy coming now.
Yeah.
Now hide the biscuits.
Yeah. I've definitely got that reputation. People just swerve away from you. I've had my makeup done before, and they're like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "Climate anxiety actually." They're like, "Oh, God," you know. I'm that guy. There's something, like all mental illnesses or mental health issues, there's something very powerful about speaking about it, putting a name to it.
Because more often than not, other people can relate, and it's about being vulnerable in that way. For me, it was finding a community, you know, and that started by joining Extinction Rebellion. I was there very early on and sort of like just having those chats with people, like, "We need to do something." You know, after those trips.
You old crusty you.
Yeah, I was one of those crusty hippies. Yeah, that's it, shouting in Oxford Circus.
That's it.
Yeah, I became one of them. Just a stereotype in every way, shape, and form.
Exactly. Exactly.
you know, there was something very powerful about that, and I think at the start, it wasn't very constructive the way I chose to channel it. You know, just literally shouting from the top of my voice, walking down Oxford Circus. I super glued myself to the front of a petroleum conference and got arrested, and my mom was like, "Jack, come on. You know, years of university for this.
Is that really painful, the super glue?
Do you know what? I was so terrified, I didn't put enough glue on my hands, so it didn't actually stick. For about a few hours, I was just pretending to be stuck. The police arrived, and I was holding a sign. I did the worst thing I could've done. There were eight of us glued to the wall. I dropped my sign, and I went, "Oh, darn." The policeman was just like, "You're a terrible excuse for a climate activist." I was whisked away, and that was the end of my, you know, activist career. I think I did, and we, you know, lockdown happened.
I think many of us were stuck inside, and I look back at those months I'd spent out in the streets, and I think it was amazing what Extinction Rebellion did. I had to ask myself, am I using my skills as best I can? You know, what is it that I can lend to this movement? I wish I was a scientist. I wish I was an inventor. You know, like some of these people come up with amazing solutions. My thing is making YouTube videos and communicating, so I was like, "Fine, let me bring that to the movement," you know. That's why I started to make more and more films about it, and that's the message I'd give. Like, everyone in this room has a particular skill that someone else doesn't have. I'd encourage you to lend that to the movement.
Like, this is something that's gonna take every single one of us. It can't just be a few of us out in Oxford Circus, you know, shouting from the top of our voice. That won't cut it. Ask yourself what your skill is and lend that to the movement. I think that's the most constructive thing you can do.
Nice. Now, Naomie, how is understanding and managing your eco-anxiety? You know, how have you channeled that into your work or as an actor into your instrument?
Actor, I love that.
Yeah. Is that what they say?
Actor. Not actor, but I like the actor bit. It's very tomboy of me.
I'm going. You're getting dissed, man.
No. I mean, the reality is actually that, you know, the film industry or the TV industry is one of the most polluting industries there is to be part of. I have to really reconcile that. You know, this is my career choice. It's something that I'm extremely passionate about, but it is also something that is highly detrimental for the environment. One of the things I make sure of is that I'm always part of projects that have a powerful message. Like I just did spend eight months filming The Man Who Fell to Earth, which is all about climate change.
which is a 10-part series, which you can catch on Paramount Plus.
Nice. Nice.
I'm plugging. You know. Thank you. Yeah. I think, you know, also another thing is just like using my voice. You know, using my voice in this industry to try and make a difference in whatever small way I can. For instance, you know, many of the productions that I've been part of, they're into using these disposable plastic bottles. There is no need for that at all.
Like, everybody can just get a canister with their name at the beginning of filming, and then we have tanks where people just fill up with water. I just say that is something that I think is non-negotiable, and I want on every production that I'm part of. That is happening now more and more. It's little things like that that actually make a huge difference. Because if you think there's about 180 people on a film set in a day.
That's 180 bottles of plastic that are being thrown away every single day, and most people are drinking more than one bottle. This simple thing of just, like, having a flask that you refill actually makes a huge impact. It's things like that.
What was the response when you make these challenges? I think one of the things to bear in mind is you're Naomie Harris. You know, if you're telling people, "Hey, we've gotta change," they're gonna change. But there's people out there who might not feel they have that agency and they have that power.
Yeah, I think that's very true. I think that I'm in a very privileged position, and that's why I have to be extremely careful about how I use my voice and using it for things that I'm truly passionate about and really trying to make a difference, you know? I was one of the people who voiced an infomercial, I guess it would be called, for Extinction Rebellion. I had to think really hard about that because it was a time, you know, it was two years ago, most people were like, "Extinction Rebellion, they're just stopping me from getting to work every day," you know.
Yeah.
All these bloody protests that are happening all the time. You know, it's something that I think, yeah, that's true. It can be inconvenient, some of the demonstrations that have happened, but it's for a wider cause that is just so much more important than that. I think, using my voice wisely is incredibly important to me. I think everybody has a voice. You know, you as a consumer at home, you know, what choices, what you choose to buy and what you choose not to buy makes a huge difference, you know. Industries are taking note, and ultimately, industries are money-making businesses. If you decide, I wanna go with the eco products, and I don't wanna go with anything that's polluting the environment, they stop, they listen, and they perform like this, you know.
I think everybody has a voice, and everyone should use it.
No, that's really, really valuable information. I mean, one of the things we forget and we get caught up and lost in is we tend to think that power comes from the top down.
Mm-hmm.
We sort of sit back and say, "Let them sort it out." In reality, power comes from the bottom up. We're the ones in control. It's what we say, what we do that can make the difference.
They rely on us being quiet and being meek and like lambs. We have to get involved. We have to use our voices. It's so important. What about you, Jack? How have you channeled your eco-anxiety into your work?
Well, I'd love to share the stories, actually, of a few people I met making a series last year. I had a chance to make a 11-part series called Seat at the Table. It's out on YouTube. Check it out. This is a series we made in the run-up to COP26. The aim of this series was to platform the voice of those on the front lines of the climate crisis, those who are most affected, those who don't have a seat at that negotiating table at the COP conferences and bring it to Glasgow. It was during the pandemic, so we couldn't. There was a big plan to travel around the world.
That was canceled, and I think it actually ended up being for the best 'cause it meant we didn't create carbon emissions. I didn't travel anywhere. We also empowered local crews in eight different countries around the world to tell these stories. I remember the day, it was meant to be this big around-the-world trip. I remember the day the producer called me and was like, "So, Jack, I'm afraid you're not going around the world anymore because of COVID. But how about a trip from the very bottom of the U.K. To the top of the U.K. on a bicycle?
I was like, "Oh, Colin, it's not quite going to the Maldives, is it?" But yeah, you know, let's make it. It ended up being such an incredibly inspiring trip. You know, I'll be really honest, when I started making that show-
Mm-hmm.
I was in a period of feeling really down. I was really struggling. I remember, like, having conversations with Alice, my partner, like, how can I go on camera and offer hope when I'm feeling totally hopeless? I didn't know how I could do that. I decided just to try and, like, bring that vulnerability to that series. It may sound like a cliché, but the people I met on that journey completely changed my perspective of the issue, you know. Like, a few examples, one of them I met very early on was a woman called Poppy Okotcha in Totnes. Some of you may know her.
Yes, great.
She has this amazing social platform.
Great.
She has this garden in Totnes. It's the size of an average garden in the UK, and she's turned it into this unbelievable, like, rewilding project with vegetables and chickens and flowers, and she documents this thing, and she decided to take matters into her own hands. Like you said, you know, I think climate change is a systemic issue, a symptom of a broken system. It's important to remember that. I personally have lost a lot of faith in those that have the power to create that top-down change, so it falls onto our shoulders. That doesn't just look like recycling more and, like, taking a, you know, tote bag to the supermarket. We can, like, get our hands dirty and get stuck in on a community level. That was the thing that really inspired me, seeing the community in Totnes.
It's a transition town, which means they're working together to transition away from fossil fuels and become, like, energy independent. Poppy is one person who's at the heart of that movement. I remember meeting a guy called Liam up in Scotland, who was rewilding rainforests in Scotland. Did you know there are rainforests in Scotland?
Yeah.
No idea.
Yeah, in Scotland.
This guy's in his early twenties, and he just goes out every day, and he's rewilding these rainforests that suck down carbon out of the atmosphere. Such a beautiful thing to do. I remember going to the Orkney Islands, these islands in the top of the U.K., and I met a young man called Ryan, who was 26, and he was working on this incredible hydro turbine called the Orbital O2.
Mm-hmm.
Which looks like a sort of submarine floating in the ocean. As the current comes through, it spins the propellers and generates energy. Some of you may know, the Orkney Islands are almost totally independent in terms of energy. They create a lot of their own energy. Actually, they send energy back to the UK via, like, a cable under the ocean. I sat on this amazing thing, the Orbital O2, with Ryan, who's a young engineer working on it, and he said to me, he didn't know my background, but he was like, "I just don't get all these people out in Oxford Circus shouting, you know, in the streets and, like, gluing themselves to things. Why don't they just bloody get on with it and do something?
Yeah.
You know, I was, like, looking at him on this amazing machine thinking, "Do you know what, Ryan? Fair enough. You're just doing it and supporting your community.
Yeah.
It totally changed my perspective on how to tackle this issue. It is a global issue, but it requires all of us to do our thing, and we can only do that locally and within our own communities. I think that's how you stop it being so paralyzing and overwhelming. Look around you and ask what it is you can do to support your local community.
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, look on this panel. We've got three of us from three different generations, and we all have the same goal. We all have the same feelings. We're not alone in this. There is a community, there is a power, there is an energy to make things change and to make a difference. Now, it was slightly remiss of me at the beginning because I didn't remind you guys to get your questions in because this is all about you at home and all of you in the audience as well. Hopefully, you haven't ignored me and have thought up some questions, and we're gonna have a look and see. We'll go to the audience first. Okay, we'll go to the audience first.
Has anyone out here got a question for our panel? Here we go. We've got a hand up. This young lady here.
Thank you. Hi, guys.
Could you stand up? Sorry.
Okay.
Just so I can see, you know. That's why.
I work in marketing for a children's footwear brand. My question for you guys is. How can a brand authentically communicate climate issues to educate and engage their consumers? As like a secondary, what brands do you guys believe do this really effectively at the moment?
Wow. Good question.
Yeah.
Good questions.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I'll bring it back to telling human stories. Like, I think when it comes to brands, to manufacturing, I've found it fascinating sitting here and listening to what goes behind PUMA making these shoes, and I realize how little I know about manufacturing processes, about a lot of the companies that I buy things from. I know there's been some conversation about it today, but the first step is transparency. I admire it, like you guys holding your hands up and being like, "We're not perfect. We're figuring it out, and none of us are perfect. None of us wanted to be in this situation. We're all being forced with this overwhelming crisis to tackle it. And let's be honest and vulnerable in that process.
Talk about what we're doing, talk about what we're messing up on. I think we can do that by sharing human stories, and I think, you know, there are many brands like Textile Exchange are an incredible one. Vivobarefoot, they do lots of amazing stuff. Patagonia that tell the human stories of the people that work in their supply chains because people connect with people, not numbers. It's just. It doesn't go into the brain. It doesn't compute. But when you can learn someone's human story, then you can understand. I would say, like, you know, engage the people that are in your supply chains and tell their stories, lift them up, put them on your platforms, embrace socials to communicate those stories so that people can understand.
That, you know, greater sense of transparency is what consumers, what our generation, Gen Z-ers, desperately want.
Naomie Harris?
Yeah. I mean, I think the wonderful thing is there is so much awareness today, and there is so much of a desire to make a difference and to do what the consumer wants to get involved. They want to make a difference. I think if you're, you know, loud and proud about what your brand's about, then I think you'll inevitably attract consumers 'cause they wanna be part of a movement. You know, they wanna make a difference. For me, personally, you know, I am partnering, this is just announced, I'm partnering with a brand called OMNES who are amazing. They use so much of their brand is, like, using recycled materials, and it's all about fair wages for everybody that's involved in the company and from every step along the way.
They are an incredible brand that I am really excited to be part of. That's what I'm really passionate about, is partnering with brands who really do wanna make a difference and, make the world a better place, ultimately.
I think you hit on a really important point there, fair wages as well, because one of the things about, you know, solving this climate crisis is we can restart things and try and create more parity, you know, because I think part of the reason why we are where we are is because of so much inequality and inequity in the world. This is an opportunity for us to get that parity. We got a question coming online. Thank you to both of you. It's about eco-anxiety. Is there a gender divide? Are women more inclined to suffer from eco-anxiety?
I don't know.
Um-
I mean.
It's-
I don't know any stats on that.
No.
Maybe one thing I'll contribute to that is, I mean, I assume not. I think women are probably just better at talking about their mental health and being vulnerable.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, it's a whole other topic, but I think there's a huge issue among men about being vulnerable and talking about the way they feel.
Suicide is the biggest killer of men under 40. What's going on there? I think as men, we need to get better at, like, you know, opening up and being vulnerable about how we feel. But to me, it wouldn't make sense that it would be affecting women more than men. You know, this is something that affects every single one of us. Although many women are on the front lines of climate change at this point, so.
Yeah. I take it you agree with Naomie. I don't know what you think.
No, I totally agree. I think, men and women are equally affected, so I think they would be equally concerned as far as I can tell.
It's about talking about it, and that's the thing. I mean, if we talked about this in the first place, I don't think we'd be here. You know, if we'd start talking about this 50 years ago when scientists were warning about things like this. Have we got any more questions in our audience? Have we stunned you all into
Zero.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah.
You've given me the eyes as well.
Yeah.
I'm scared. I'm worried about this question. Someone get a mic to this lady quick before she comes up and flying kicks me. You know?
Oh, I promise I won't hurt you. I guess you talked overall about eco-anxiety and how you deal with it overall. Just personally, especially Jack, you spend a lot of your time telling stories on behalf of other people and getting them platform, but it does have an effect as a storyteller, and even as an actress, you take on that personality of someone else, so you're telling that story. How do you personally, rather than talking about everyone overall, how do you personally deal with eco-anxiety, and do you have any tips for people who do not or not manage it?
Personally, I'm doing. I mean, obviously not everyone can do this, but I'm building an eco-house. It's a passive house, solar powered, as off-grid as I possibly can be, and really trying not to impact the environment in any way possible, and also to be as self-sustainable as I possibly can be. Obviously, that's huge, and not everybody can do that. I think, you know, you start small, and you start with things. Like, something that I'm really passionate about, it's not a sexy thing to talk about, but it's the fact that sanitary wear is a huge cause of, you know, pollution in our environments, right?
Women could make a simple change, which is to use reusable sanitary wear, and that would have an enormous impact on the environment. It's like tiny little things that we think are small and we think are personal to us, but actually the ripple effect, if everybody does that, is huge. Switching from regular toilet paper to recycled toilet paper, these all send huge signals to the industries to say, you know, people are concerned, and they are willing to engage. They want to make a difference, and therefore, the industry changes its course of action. Ultimately, I think all the solutions are out there. It's not that they don't exist.
It's just that the motivation isn't there, and the motivation actually comes from each and every one of us as consumers.
Mm-hmm.
Jack?
That's beautiful. Yeah. I think finding ways to turn your anxiety into action, to me, knowing that I'm doing something, however big, however small, is what gets me out of bed every single morning. It can be very overwhelming, it can be paralyzing, but taking those little steps makes a difference. Ultimately, it's about just looking after your mental health. I recently went and did a 10-day silent meditation retreat three weeks ago, and I never meditated before in my life. It terrified the hell out of me, but it had a huge positive impact on my mental health. Just sitting down for 10 days, not being on my phone, not engaging in the news, learning this incredible ancient skill of meditation that's been around for 2,500 years. Breathwork is something I find really helpful.
Exercise is something I find really helpful. Just being really militant about putting those into my daily routine because we all need to look after our self-care. If you're burnt out, you're no good to anyone. Look after yourself as well as the planet. Our activism has to be sustainable as well.
I'm so fascinated about meditation 'cause it's something that I try, but my mind is so rubbish. It goes off.
All of ours are.
in a whole place. I'm like, "Where's my phone? I need it. No, don't leave me in my own head. Don't leave me in my own head." But I think you're right. It is about personal mental care. As an athlete, I spent so much time thinking about my physical health, but it's only recently, over recent years, that you start thinking actually, your mental health is just as important, if not more important, you know? We're gonna need it. We are really gonna need to be mentally and physically strong in the next few years if we're gonna deal with this. Thank you, both of you. Got another question, coming in from online, and how do you make people care about the environment and the climate? This is a big, big question. It's a question that keeps me awake at night, in all honesty.
I constantly try to think of different ways, you know, 'cause the people who get it, they get it, you know? That's all right. There are still a really important group of people that we have to engage. What do you think we need to do, Naomie?
I actually don't think the issue is about people caring. I think people do care. It's that they don't feel empowered.
Mm-hmm.
They feel like it's overwhelming. What can I do? I'm just gonna give up. That's why things like, you know, the anti-plastic straw movement was so powerful 'cause people thought, "Well, here's a really, really simple thing I can do, is just not use a plastic straw when I'm drinking." It's been massive. It's been huge. Like, no one wants to, you know, in their establishments, wants to give you a plastic straw anymore. You can't find a plastic straw for love nor money, right? They're all paper now. That's huge. I think it's really about great PR, and industries getting behind single point messages because I think otherwise it just gets too confusing for people.
If they know that there's one simple action that they can take and that will make a difference, then I think people can get on board with that. I think our lives are so busy and overwhelming that you're just like, "I don't know. I can't take on the entire world." You can't. You know, everybody's gotta, you know, do their own little bit. I think if industries help them to show them where they can make changes, small changes, I think that's when people get on board.
They need to toughen up those paper straws, though, you know. By the time you finish a drink, they're like pulp. I mean, what is that all about?
You don't need a straw. I didn't even know this straw. We should just get rid of straws.
I need a straw.
Why do we need them?
I need a straw. Come on. No, you're right. You're right. We don't need straws. Jack, what about you? What's your thoughts on making people care?
I think we need to change the way we tell the story. You know, we can't talk about this as, like, some big sacrifice that we need to make. We can't point fingers at one another and say, "This is your fault. You're responsible. You're a hypocrite." We need to paint a picture of the world that's so beautiful we have no choice but to go there. You know, at Earthrise, the production company I run, we talk about that. We say we need to build a bridge so beautiful that you're, you know, have no choice but to cross it. We need to paint a picture of the world that we need to move into. Also, we need to communicate that there's a better world on the other side for people in this. You know, like, this doesn't have to be a sacrifice.
Let's look at the energy crisis we're currently facing. It's hitting, you know, those who are already suffering the most, those who are on the poverty line. Like, let's be energy free, right? Like, we're already relying on Russia for gas. Like, there is so many solutions that can come out of tackling the climate crisis. It doesn't need to be a sacrifice. Yeah, let's paint a picture of a better world and move towards it.
Great. I wanna quickly go on to another question, 'cause I don't think we've got that much time left, which is coming from online, and it's like, any tips on how to remain calm when there's just so much bad news? You know, I think it was like there at the start when we talked about forest fires and sea level rise and even the war in Ukraine, all of that stuff. How do we stay calm in that storm?
For me, personally, I totally agree with Jack that it really is about meditation. Honestly, I wanna tell you that it doesn't matter that your mind chatters, 'cause everybody's mind chatters. It's okay.
You know what's going on in there.
No, but that's the point. It's like the idea is to sit and be an observer of that chatter.
Uh-huh.
Instead of engaging with the chatter, you're aware of it and you real-
Blank mind space.
No, you realize that there's actually that voice, and then there's you. There's another part of you. The more you start to tap into that other part of you realize that that's the still part of you, that's the calm part of you, that's the peace-centered, the love-centered part of you. I do a lot of meditating, and also the other thing I would say is, like, give yourself the gift of not rushing into your day. 'Cause I know that most people, like, get up and, like, they're straight onto their phone, and then you're bombarded, you know? It's like I would say start your day by filling yourself up with your own voice, which is through meditation, through exercise as well, and through just silence.
No watching any media for the first hour of your day, so that you start to hear your own peace, loving center. 'Cause we all have it. It's just that there's so much noise around it's often difficult to get in touch with it.
I feel like taking my shoes off right now. That's beautiful. It's beautiful. What about you, Jack?
I can't really top that answer. I'd say delete the news apps, turn off your notifications, and just sit in peace.
Listen, guys, that was absolutely brilliant. It was really fascinating. I feel really privileged to have had this opportunity to spend this time with you. I hope you feel energized, feel more positive and less alone. I'd really love you to give a massive round of applause to our wonderful guests. Thank you, Jack and Naomie. Now, for our next conversation, we're gonna be talking about fashion and specifically the life cycle of our products. Before I introduce our panel, let's have a look at this.
I have this one favorite walk. When I need to think about stuff, it's my place. It's in the forest. Hardly anyone seems to come here, but I love it. It's so old. In fact, it's ancient. This wood, this forest looked the same when my parents were kids, when their parents were kids, and way before that. The trees standing here and the whole world is going on around it. These ancient forests fill me with awe every day. Sounds cliché, but think about what a gift the Amazon is to the planet, what history, communities, and environmental good those trees hold. It only takes a minute to cut down a tree, a tree that's been living there for decades, centuries even.
I love that. These ancient forests fill me with awe every day. I think it's such a beautiful line. Totally smashes it. What's extraordinary is that to think that these ancient forests are still being destroyed to create material like viscose, the third most important material that's used in the textile industry. The good news is, major brands like PUMA are changing this by only using sustainably sourced wood pulp. If they can change the cycle, more brands will follow. Up next on our next panel, we're gonna talk about the life cycle of products in the fashion industry. We've got another wonderful, intelligent, super brainy and, extraordinarily good-looking panel to come up. Please give a warm welcome to Nadeem Perera, founder of Flock Together and one of our next gen thinkers. Come up, bruv.
Stefan Seidel, Head of Corporate Sustainability at PUMA. Kirsi Terho, Key Account Director at Infinited Fiber Company. Andreas Gürtler, Senior Manager of Global Business Development at Lenzing. Nicole Rycroft, Founder and Executive Director with Canopy. Right. This is quite a techie sort of subject. No, there's a lot of technical stuff that we're gonna get into this, but I think it's important. It's something that we've been trying to get across through this whole day, that it's about knowledge, it's about power. I'm learning stuff. There's so much in the fashion industry I don't know about. I'm learning loads and loads from you. I'm gonna start off with you, Nicole.
Sure.
At Canopy. First of all, congratulations on everything you're doing at Canopy. It's unbelievable.
Thank you.
Check out the website. What they do is incredible. Break it down for us, you know. What's the real challenge we're facing here? Also, if you can, at some point, explain to us what viscose is.
Sure. Okay, so maybe I'll cover that to start off with. As the professional tree hugger on this stage, as opposed to Naomie, who is-
Cheer for the tree huggers. Come on.
That's right. Cheers. Let's give it up for the tree huggers.
We love 'em.
The only one.
Viscose is that soft, silky fabric that's next to your skin. You find it in your T-shirts, your jeans, your suit lining, jackets, lingerie. You can all check your next door neighbor's labels at the break and see whether there's-
That's not gonna get you in trouble, is it?
Viscose, rayon or modal. Might get the person that they're checking in trouble. There's 200 million trees that disappear into viscose every year. It's slated to double within the next decade, and as such, it's quite an aggressive growing threat to forest ecosystems around the world. We all in this room are probably aware that deforestation and forest degradation are major drivers behind the climate crisis and the biodiversity crisis. Supply chains in themselves aren't necessarily the sexiest of topics when we first think of it, but there's so much of the environmental and climate footprints of the apparel that we choose and wear every day is wrapped up in the supply chain choices, the sourcing of the material choices. That's why redesigning supply chains is so critically important when it comes to climate action and addressing biodiversity.
The work that we've been doing at Canopy over the last number of years has been working with PUMA and close to 500 other brands to eliminate sourcing from ancient and endangered forests, these critical carbon and biodiversity forest ecosystems, to just remove that from being sourced for viscose production and for paper packaging, the boxes that clothing gets shipped in, and to have it be replaced by fundamentally lower carbon alternative sources. We have a tool called Hot Button. It assesses the leading viscose producers, the top 30 viscose producers globally, and they account for 99% of global production. Then we assign a shirt-
Does it create a league table, the Hot Button, or?
Sorry?
Does it create a sort of like league table or that to, for you to understand?
Yeah, a league table.
Yeah.
It kinda looks across like 28 different criteria. It's kinda geeky in its origin, but we try and actually, you know, make it simple and easy to follow, and eventually producers either get a green shirt, which is what brands like PUMA and others are sourcing from, or they have red in their shirt. Red means that there's risk, and green shirt means that there's low risk of sourcing from ancient and endangered forests.
This is for the manufacturers, is it?
This is for viscose producers like Lenzing, who we have here, and kind of some of their peers within the manufacturing chain. It makes it easy then for brands to have a one-stop shop that they can go to that's verified by an independent NGO, you know, here are the producers that are actually doing well, that are independently audited as not sourcing from these critical forest ecosystems and are actually really investing in these innovative game-changing next generation solutions that we need to have scale.
Brilliant. No, it's a really fascinating sort of innovation that's coming into the industry and absolutely necessary. Thank you, Nicole. My next question is for you, Nadeem. Now, you know, from your work, what have you discovered via work that you wish more people or consumers knew about, in regard to the impact of our clothing choices are having on the real world or the environment?
First of all, like, what a great panel to be a part of. Don't know what I'm doing on this panel to be honest with you.
Nah, you're worthy of being here.
Truthfully, what I've noticed in my work is we do a lot of work at Flock Together. For those that don't know, Flock Together is a birdwatching club for people of color. It started in London, became absolutely massive, bigger than me or my co-founder could ever think of. We've been fortunate enough to do forge a beautiful community. Some of us are in the community as well, have attended the walks already. We do a lot of work with brands as well. One of the things as far as the impacts that brands have on the environment and the production of fashion has on the environment, I think a lot of people know.
The things that people don't know is unfortunately hidden in a lot of like jargon, you know. I find lots of parallels in the wildlife space. You know, I have a big interest in wildlife and I'm trawling through papers, you know, like published papers and scientific documents trying to forge out information. I have an interest in this stuff, and it's still kinda hard for me to get through. It's boring. Do you get what I'm saying?
Yeah.
It's like for people in this panel that I've spoken today, it's like it's fantastic that we have this information, but that level needs to be brought down. Like, we need to be putting it into, like, for a man like me to understand. You know what I'm saying? Like, I need to be able to understand it. At that moment, it's just not happening. I just think basically, that is what needs to change. In order for the impacts of the environment to be shared better, it's on the brands to communicate that message better to people on a level that I'm from.
Yeah. Language is so important, I think. You know, it's that universal tool that's gonna bring more people in, you know, and it can get lost in jargon. It was mentioned in one of the earlier panels, I think, Izzy, you were talking about it, and I think it's about finding a middle ground. Finding a middle ground, yes. I think the brands need to do work to dejargonize things, but I also feel we have to do work as well. You know, we have to because if we don't, then we don't force the brands to change.
No, but you know what? It's good. That's a very good point that you make, yeah. Flock Together does that work. We get our community who have a very minimal interest in wildlife and the environment, let's say, and we get them out into nature. Base level interaction.
Yeah.
The barrier to entry is so low. We've done that. We've got it here. What we need from the brands is like, we've had a lot of talk today about product.
Yeah.
Which is great, yeah. Product is never going to be a net zero. It's at best going to be a net zero. Do you get what I'm saying? I feel like brands need to extend their offering. We have communities on the grassroots level now engaged. What else can you offer other than product? Can you offer these grassroots organizations support to achieve their goals? Someone like Flock Together, organization like Flock Together, environmentalism, yes, we are a bird watching group, but environmentalism is top of our list. Back us with that. We have big ambitions to do great work and bring our community's creativity to this fight. Back us. You know what I'm saying? Back us.
Who knew bird watchers could be so militant?
Yeah.
Militant.
Yeah.
Nice. No, great words. Great words, Nadeem. I'm just gonna move to you, Kirsi, at Infinited Fiber. Tell us about how you're innovating to reduce environmental resources and impact.
We are talking a lot about trees here.
Mm-hmm.
What we are using as a feedstock is post-consumer textile waste. That is a terrible word. What that means is your old clothes. We are taking something that you have been wearing and bringing a new life to that. 100% post-consumer textile waste-based new fiber. That fiber can be then used in kinda like creating a new garment that is born from the old clothes. That is our kinda like innovation base. What that really brings to the whole concept itself is that when you make waste your business, then that is when the waste becomes interesting.
Mm.
That is when we make an impact. If we think about kinda like all the influencers that are talking a lot about how to do this, how we wanna, kinda like, what we do for our, example, for our clothes, there is a solution, but solutions are still very little. It needs to be scaled up. Scale is business. Business is critical to make an impact. I think that is what we are bringing to the table.
It's interesting. How does the everyday consumer, how do they get involved with what you're doing? Do I just send my second-hand clothes to you, send my trousers to you, and you send them back as a dress or what? No. How
Yeah. In the future, you do.
Yeah.
At the moment in Finland, we are based in Finland. Mm-hmm. What we do there, we have a collection system that is collecting from households all the old clothes. That is going to the sorting center, where we are picking up the material that fits for our process. That material is then turned into new fibers and then used to new apparel. That is how it's gonna be working in the future.
It just means we will never need to get raw materials and take stuff out of our planet. We can just keep recycling what we have.
Yeah. We are saying that we make textile industry lose its virginity. What it means is that we don't really need to source any virgin materials anymore. That is our goal.
I like the way you said that, you know. You said it with intention. Yeah, it's so important because the big problem we have in all industries is constantly extracting from our planet, constantly. We have to lose that mentality, where we stop taking, and we give back, and we recycle. It's a completely different mentality, but it's a mentality that's gonna save us, you know? Let's go on to Andreas. Both you and Infinited Fiber have innovative alternatives for cotton, or part recycled cotton. Why is this such a big deal for the industry?
Well, in Lenzing, we have a very long history in producing man-made cellulosic fibers. Already 80 years ago, we came up with the viscose fiber. Ten years later, or 20 years later, we came up with a modified viscose, the so-called modal fiber with a higher wet modulus and a better wet stability. Thirty years ago, we came up with the TENCEL™ lyocell fiber, which is completely different to other man-made cellulosic fibers because you need less water. It's a physical production process where a solvent, which is non-toxic, and water and cellulose will be brought into solution in order to produce this TENCEL™ fiber. The name TENCEL™ comes by the way from tenacity cellulose, which implies that it is the most strongest cellulosic fiber.
I already said that we have a very long history in producing man-made cellulosic fibers. Also, we with regards to viscose and our modal branded fibers here we also have the highest rate in recovery of auxiliary chemistry that makes us so sustainable. All in all, we are proud to be the most sustainable man-made cellulosic fiber producer. What is also important and what I would also like to tell to the audience is that with our biorefinery concept, we are using trees from forests, from natural forestry. These are trees which cannot be used for the furniture industry. That means from the trees we extract 40% of the cellulose for producing the fibers.
50% is energy, which we use in order to drive our engines. The other 10% are byproducts of high quality like, for example, xylitol, which is a wood sugar, which you find in Life Savers or chewing gums. Acetic acid, which is used for the food industry. Furfural, which is a chemical which is used for, as a diluent for the crude oil industry. We can say also here we bring a benefit to the industry.
Mm.
This Lenzing site is best practice because we also take care of the environment with using the energy from the residual energy from the incineration of the wood in order to drive our engines, as I mentioned already. That makes us also carbon zero.
Mm.
We have not talked about the water yet. Since our factory is located in a Lenzing area, halfway between Salzburg and Linz, where the factory will be supplied with crystal clear water from the lake and the water leaves the company, passes through the company, leaves the company as clean as it goes in. Moreover, also we take care about the fishes in the water. There are 15 different species of fishes in the water, which leave also the company safe.
What's fascinating is the attention to detail. It feels like on every stage you are looking at the different aspects of the impacts that the company is having on the environment and how you can mitigate that and how you can change that, you know? I think that's what we need as consumers to take note of. Look for companies that are doing that. Understand what the companies where we're buying our products are from, what they're doing, what impacts they're having on our society. Because it's a two-way street. You know, if we're not checking out what they're doing, policing what they're doing, deciding who we're buying by what they're doing, then the poor ways of manufacturing will continue. I think it's so important that we continue to do that.
No, fascinating and congratulations.
Can I just say.
Yeah, yeah. Go for it.
Yeah.
Oh, you're gonna start some trouble now.
No, I'm not gonna start trouble.
I'm only teasing. I wish.
I'm here as the Gen Z voice. Do you get me?
Now, go for it.
I'm gonna be the voice, yeah.
Go for it.
Ain't no Gen Z interested in that. Do you get what I'm saying?
Like, no disrespect to anyone on this panel. You lot are doing valuable work. This whole thing is about engaging the next generation.
Mm-hmm.
All of those words there ain't engaging the next generation. Do you get what I'm saying? It's like, look, I'm gonna reiterate the point again. The grassroots organizations that have forged this community and can convey messages to said community need to be the ones that are being engaged by these brands at the grassroots level. That all of that information, we can take it and put it into a language our people understand.
Yeah.
Do you get what I'm saying?
Yeah.
In fact, it's a two-way street.
Yeah.
The first move has to come from the brand.
Yeah.
Has to.
Well, it feels like you've put out a call there.
Yeah.
You've put out a call there, Nadeem, to say, "Come to Flock Together." Have a conversation.
There are many organizations.
Yeah. No, it starts.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that's what you want, and you want that conversation. I get it because we wanna get out of the technical language.
Uh-huh.
The way this climate crisis began is scientists.
Mm-hmm.
It was unfortunate because scientists, yes, they have great intentions, but often it's hidden in language.
Mm-hmm.
We need that to be changed.
Absolutely.
No. It's a fantastic point. Kirsi, you were
Yeah. No, I totally agree with you, Nadeem. It needs to come from there.
Mm-hmm.
Because I'm the business-minded. The business comes from there because you are creating the demand, and demand is something that is really making this movement called to the places. I think that is most important that people have a loud voice.
Absolutely.
Because that is making the change in everything.
Absolutely. As we all know, time is of the essence.
We actually are in a culture where it's not just Flock Together. There are many other organizations of marginalized people, undersupported people, that are now interested in nature. Now is the time to engage them.
Yeah.
Do you get what I'm saying? If we miss that window, we've missed a very, very good opportunity to save this planet, which is what we all want, by the way. Do you get what I'm saying? It's like, switch on-
Yeah.
Trust the people that have built the communities to convey messages. You know? Hand over that power, because by giving power, you actually get more back.
It's such an important point. You know, I think sometimes when I travel around the world, one of the frustrations I have is we in the Global West, the richer nations, who have brought us to this point, are the ones who are trying to tell the developing nations who are struggling, who have had to deal with this for decades, what to do. You know, they're struggling, and not only are they struggling, they're having to listen to us.
Yeah.
You know, I think you're talking about it on a community level.
Yeah.
It's the same thing, it echoes on a global level. That communication, what that creates is trust.
Mm.
That's the biggest thing we need.
This is trust. If they're not talking to you, then how can you trust them?
Absolutely.
How can we move forward, right? Just on a technical term, we have 90 months. I've already said that. 90 months to sort this out. 90 months. Otherwise we leave, move into a bad place. Unpredictable weather, cataclysmic climate change. We have to start doing these things. Thank you, Nadeem, for that. Stefan?
Yeah. Can I put up the, you know, the science again, you know?
Yes, yes.
I'm listening and hearing what you're saying, and one of the reasons we're doing this event is exactly to hear, you know, from you and other young voices how we can better reach people. Nevertheless, I think, you know, we have a crisis and you name it's such a big crisis. We have this whole anxiety. It's happening, you know. We have 40 degrees in London. We have flooding in Pakistan. We actually know what needs to be done. We haven't talked a lot about energy. I mean, we had small bits and pieces here and there. First we need to transition to renewable energy. That's the mother-
Transition to which energy?
Renewable energy.
Okay. Yeah.
We have to get out of coal, we have to get out of oil, that's what we're doing. We as a fashion industry are, you know, on the way, and we have created industry organizations like the Fashion Charter for Climate Action. We'll hear from Lindita later on, you know, on the next panel from UN Climate about that initiative. We need to get out of conventional energy. We need to get into renewable energy, because that's like half of the CO2 emissions that our industry creates are related to energy.
Yeah.
That's number one. We're doing that from a PUMA side as good as we can, and we've moved to 100% renewable electricity. You know, we buy renewable energy tariffs where we can, renewable energy attribute certificates where it's not possible, and we work with our suppliers. For example, you know, our friend Mohammed here from Bangladesh, who employs 43,000 people, to transition their manufacturing also to renewable energy. You know, put up solar PVs. We're talking on a big scale, you know, within the industry. We're trying to talk to the policymakers in countries like Bangladesh to set up renewable energy sources there, so that our suppliers actually can tap into that renewable energy. That's number one. Then number two, we talk about materials. Deforestation, it's a total no-go, yeah?
If we wanna avoid the catastrophic effects of climate change, which are already starting, of course, we have to make sure there's zero deforestation. Therefore, as a brand, when we talk materials, we set 100% targets. We set 100% more sustainable viscose, 100% viscose from green rated, you know, hot spots and suppliers.
Stefan, sorry to interrupt.
Yeah.
All of that is great, but following on from what Nadeem was saying there, how do we bring along people like Nadeem? How do we bring along Gen Zs? How do we take them on this journey together?
I don't think there's one single answer. Of course, we can collaborate. We are collaborating with many organizations. We are collaborating with NGOs. You know, we're doing this event today. We're reaching out. We can also use our assets. You know, we as a brand, as a fashion industry, we can change people's perception. You know, that's what the fashion industry is about. Also, sports. I mean, if our superstars are wearing something, then other people wanna wear the same thing. So we can use the power, you know, of those people, actually, to also use it for the good cause, use it to educate people, to inspire. I'm not a fan of the word educate. To inspire people actually.
Yeah. Yeah.
to join that, you know, climate journey.
No,
I.
I can see Nicole, you wanna come in here.
Yeah. I think agency. It was one of the things that came up with Jack and Naomie's conversation with you, Adidas, and I think that's really important, right? Because it's easy to feel as though it's not possible to actually kind of engage or to make a contribution. But having agency, taking that agency. Like, sustainability is often, you know, it's often just akin to sort of teenage sex, right? Everybody says they're doing it, very few actually are. Even less are actually doing it well. All of us at a very minimum can actually, like, engage, find out the brands that are actually doing a good job, like really doing a good job. Engage with them, support them to continue to take leadership.
Make sure that we're not just trading in one environmental disaster for another, by sort of having access to the information. Like, we need to be moving away from all extractive linear supply chains, whether it's forest-based fiber, because forests, keeping forests standing is 30% of the climate solution. We need to use at least 50% less of them in the boxes and the T-shirts that we're making by 2030. That means that we need technologies like Infinited to be wildly successful and to scale, that use recycled textiles or other innovators that are using agricultural residues or microbial cellulose from food waste. There's a myriad of solutions that are out there that need to be scaled, and so brands are setting the market appetite and the pull-through. We need investors to engage.
We need a kind of microcosm of the brightest, smartest scientists, as well as communicators, as well as investors to actually really pull these through to scale on the timelines that we need.
Right.
That out of the possible, I think that mindset in itself is something that's really critical for us all to keep.
Everyone has got to be involved.
Yeah.
Everyone's got to be a part of it. I feel really childish, though, because you said so much good stuff, but all that keeps coming out in my brain is you say, that I heard was, had good sex.
Having sex. Right.
Save the planet. You know, that's. Listen, we're gonna have some more questions or answers from you guys, but I really wanna throw out to people in the audience and also people at home. We'll start off with a question from online, and it says, "How can I trust that there is a real difference between good viscose and bad viscose?" Nicole, it seems like it falls upon you.
Yeah, sure. I would say that at the moment where we're at is we're in a transition point. Basically, green shift supply of viscose is the viscose that's not coming from the most critical forest ecosystems in the world. Now, that's the minimum bar that we're wanting to clear.
Mm-hmm.
Canopy's also working with another NGO, ZDHC, that's working on the clean chemistry side of things. Ultimately, where we wanna be going with man-made cellulosic textiles or viscose and rayon, is to have a significant, in fact, the vast majority of the fiber that's being drawn on, not be wood fiber, so that we can actually conserve forests at the scale that we need to for planetary health, but rather that we're drawing on these other feedstock potentials that are currently seen as waste, agricultural residues, recycled textiles or food waste.
That seems more like a signal or information for companies and brands. What about us as everyday people?
These next gen solutions are here today. The very first textile to textile pulp mill that's feeding into viscose starts operation in Sweden in, like, a month.
As individual, kind of, global citizens, I like to think of us rather than as consumers necessarily, as global citizens, when we go into a store, when we're looking to buy a product, like, make sure, A, you're supporting brands that are taking leadership like PUMA and others on these issues, and look for the products that actually have next gen textile kind of feedstock as part of it, be it recycled cotton or, you know, like recycled viscose.
Mm-hmm.
Like, look for that on the label.
Look for it on the label.
Yeah.
Andreas, I saw you had your hand up there.
Yeah. I want to add here in that context, that our fibers can also identify, so at the fabric level as well as at the garment level, to make sure that they have been produced under the most sustainable conditions.
Okay. Thank you. Wanna get through some more questions as well. Anybody here have a question for our panel? We have a hand up from this young man in a white T-shirt.
Hey, Nadeem. Is it all good?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. I actually had a question for Nadeem. I know through your work, Flock Together since we founded has-
You have to speak up, bro. Can't hear you.
Oh, sorry. I know through your work, Flock Together is being approached by loads of brands who wanna work with you and support in different ways. I know a lot of brands think that supporting is just sending a bunch of product to be posted on social media or whatever tag. I was wondering, what have the brands that have done it best done, and what would you look for in any brand approaching you to support a grassroots level?
Yeah. As far as the brands that support Flock Together, just check us out on Instagram and you see. I'm not gonna do PUMA dirty, bigging up their brands. Check us out on Instagram and you'll see the work that's been done. One of the main things we say is we're not any brands tick box exercise. Do you get me? Like, if you want that, there's many other groups that might be happy to do that. Do you know what I'm saying? We're not. What we look for is long-term change for the benefit of our community and the natural world, which in effect is what brands want as well. The way we do that is plain and simple, man. Cut the check. Do you get me? Cut the check. Say less. You know, we know what we're doing.
We have big ideas that we want to work for us and of course a knock on effect is that works for you guys as well. Yeah, I would say just long-term investment and understanding that we have long-term goals that we want to hit, not just feature in a campaign to tick a box for your diversity for the annual, for the year. You know what I'm saying?
Good answer. Question from online. Thank you for the question, by the way. Do you think positive change is happening fast enough in the industry? Who would like to take that? Stefan, I see you've got your hand up.
As it says, Stefan, so I'll take it.
Oh, yeah. There you go.
No, it's not. It's not fast enough. That's why we work together. Why we need to work together. That's also so critical, and I think we try to bring this across, you know, the whole afternoon, that we need to work together. We need to work together with our peers. We need to work together with our suppliers. We need to work together with civil society, NGOs, because we really need to accelerate the speed of the transition. You have examples here. You have examples like Lenzing, you know, who's supplying viscose to PUMA. You have examples like Nicole and Canopy, who helped us draft our, you know, biodiversity and forestry policy. We have not partnered yet, but it can happen. That's so important because we are not fast enough. Yeah, we're not fast enough. We've started the journey.
There's a lot of good, innovative approaches out there. A, we're not fast enough and B, we need to scale. Those innovative solutions, they are small at the moment, but we need scale. This is what I'm, you know, was trying to explain that we need those 100% targets. We need 100% more sustainable cotton. We need 100% more sustainable polyester. We need 100% viscose from those green-rated suppliers. 50%, 30%, I mean, it's not good enough. We need a 100%. It's also not good enough if we do it as PUMA. No, the industry needs to transition, and we've made some commitments. You know, last year at the COP, we were there together. Bjørn was there as well. We made some commitment as an industry to actually move exactly in this direction.
100% low carbon materials and 100% renewable energy. Phasing out coal-fired boilers from our tier one and tier two suppliers. This is where we need to go, and we need to go there fast.
Can I quickly?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
One quick example of how quick, like, how fast the change can happen is Namibia. Yeah? Like, in the early nineties, the wildlife, state of wildlife and biodiversity in Namibia was bad. It was really, like, in a poor state. A lot of threatened species. The government was the first African government to make the ecosystem and the environment and wildlife a part of their constitution. It was compulsory.
Mm-hmm.
What they did was they handed over the power to local communities, and it became the fastest growing biodiverse state in Africa. It is now actually the strongest population of wild cheetahs in the world. That's a span of 30 years, you know? That's just one example of how quickly things can change if the right moves are made.
Yeah. It's all about understanding your environment and understanding the importance in your country and understanding what local communities can do.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna do one more quick question. I know, Kirsi, you wanted to answer that, but I just wanna get one more quick question. How can you reach out to young people so they understand more about materials and their impact? Does anyone on the panel wanna answer that one?
Work with Flock Together.
Well-
I can take that.
Yes.
I would say that, reaching out young people, that is the job that brands need to do. That is their task.
Yeah.
Brands are looking for solutions very heavily at the moment. Communicating about it, that's the key task in the future. That is how they can reach the audience, and they can reach the consumer, and that is what is making the impact. We talk about that everything is in scale. That is the most important part. To be as an innovator in this space and be kinda like a techie persons in here, I think that we need the brand support in that sense as well. They need to be ones that are making the demand. They need to be the ones that are making the impact.
Mm
Really telling about us. There is lots and lots of new great innovations that nobody knows about.
Yeah. Yeah.
Brands has that task.
Yeah. No, very good point on great place to finish on. Actually, I just wanted to ask one more question before we finish. Nadeem, what's your favorite bird?
It's the crow, believe it or not.
A crow? Out of all them beautiful birds out there?
Yeah. It's like.
Why, why the crow?
It's so smart. First, it's black as well. That helps. It's also probably one of the smartest, if not the smartest animal in the world.
Super playful, right?
Super playful.
Yeah.
They have problem-solving ability of a five-year-old human child. Yeah, I just think they're dope, man. All the birds people tend to hate are the ones I love. Do you get me?
I bet you never thought you'd learn that today. Crows. Big up to the crows. Listen, big up to our panel.
Thank you.
You guys were fantastic. Nadeem, Stefan, Nicole, Kirsi, and Andreas. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed that. Thanks, guys.
One more time for our panel on Friday, please, ladies and gentlemen. It has to be said, Ade, whenever I watch you work, I'm always in awe of what you do. Thank you for bringing your warmth, sir. Today was incredible. Thanks for the last hour. Ade, please. Okay. Now, next up, we are gonna be talking to the CEOs of both PUMA and Under Armour, so stay tuned for that. We're gonna be talking collaboration and supply chain as well. On another note, I don't know if you remember, Naomie Harris was actually talking about a brand that she's collaborating with called Modibodi, which is sustainable sanitary towels.
Do you like the way I made sure I got that right? They're actually available for free in the bathroom, so if you'd like to take some, there are some for you to take right now. One last thing before we get something way more exciting than my stupid face. If you're a fan of Corona, there is non-alcoholic Corona. It's a new brand called Cero. It's available at the bar, so get some of that right now. Way more exciting than me, in other news, is a slight break, and it comes in the form of some music, so please make some noise for Bella. Hello. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. Hello, everyone. Hello to the new people who have just rolled in. Hello, new people. I see you. You're definitely enjoying the free snacks.
Find a seat. Don't be shy. Get in. Get comfortable. We are in the home straight now for one of our last chats. How is everyone? How we doing? We okay?
That was pathetic. How we doing? You okay? You with me, guys? Okay, I feel like I'm at a crèche trying to round the children and get them excited about story time before their parents come to pick them up. Well, I promise this final stretch is definitely worth the wait, so thank you so much for sticking around with us, guys. Okay, now, a little earlier on, during the conversation with Ade and Naomie Harris, a lot was spoken about meditation. Funnily enough, PUMA have on their Spotify channel some eco-anxiety meditations as read by Cara Delevingne. So if you wanna check those out, please go and do so. Before we go any further, could we please make some noise one more time for Bella and that performance we just had? Thank you.
Okay, my biggest personal challenge for the next straight, and the final chunk of today's event is to try and make my friend, the man in the sunglasses there, smile and maybe clap his hands at some point and really enjoy what's about to be presented to him. You look like a tough customer to please, but I will get you on side before the end of this, sir. Okay. There is one conversation left, and I'm actually getting involved in this one. I'm gonna be asking the questions this time around, which I'm very excited about because this conversation is about creating change through industry collaboration. Now, before I introduce your panelists, we've got a bit of a film for you. Check this out.
We've always been about pushing ourselves to be better, stronger, faster. Whether we're on the sports field or the high street, we do it for the people who believe in us, in our brand. The time has come to think bigger than that, because the climate crisis is bigger than us, bigger than one brand, bigger than sportswear, bigger than all of our industry put together. We see its impact every day all over the world, from wildfires across Europe to heatwaves in India, extreme thunderstorms in Ontario, and the flooding of Yellowstone National Park.
For the sake of our planet, for the sake of each other, we need to act as one, act together to turn individual innovations into shared solutions, individual goals into shared ambitions. It's time we bridge the gap between brands, industries, and borders. Make progress forever faster, because the only way to create forever better is to work together.
Okay. Okay, let's keep that in mind, because we hear a lot about collaboration in fashion, but there is a much bigger story to tell. Now today, we're talking about collaboration behind the scenes, not just with your favorite streetwear brand. Today, we're talking about being better together. Are you ready for our final panel? He's unsure. Sunglasses man is still unsure. We're gonna get you here. Don't worry about it. Okay, can we please make some noise to welcome our next panelist?
Put your hands together, please. First and foremost. Don't be shy. Put your hands together. Thank you. First and foremost, welcoming to the stage, Alice Aedy. Make some noise for her. Here she comes. Alice is a filmmaker and next generation thinker. Keep that round of applause going for the CEO of PUMA. Please make some noise for Bjørn Gulden. Don't be shy about keeping the clapping going. He's not wearing any PUMA, but that's okay. Please welcome the CEO of Under Armour. This is Colin Browne. My guy. Please keep that applause going as well for the Sectors Engagement Lead from the UN Climate Change, it's Lindita Xhaferi-Salihu. Last but not least, please make some noise for Louis Chen, CEO of Diamond Group. Okay. All right, there's a lot of pressing questions to dive into.
Also remember, we need you to forward your questions as well. If you have anything to ask this panel of incredibly impressive people, myself not included, please get those questions in. I've been talking about it all day. We have QR codes behind the panel. If you wanna click a photo on one of those and go to the website and actually punch a question in if you don't wanna ask it face-to-face, you can do so there. Or if you wanna get involved in the Q&A part of the conversation, we're going old school. We're gonna need you to raise your hand, even if you have sweat patches, and we will find you with a microphone and get you to ask a question to our panel. Okay, let's dive in.
Straight away, Bjørn, how would you say sustainability has developed in the industry over the last 30 years?
I think when I started in the industry, which is 30 years ago, even more scary, sustainability didn't exist. It was about making as much product as we could as cheap as possible. I think to be very honest with you, I think we, the Western customer, exploited, you know, the suppliers. We had no, what should I say, guidance in how to treat neither the people nor the climate, nor, I would say, the environment. I think now it's a totally different world. There's not one day as a CEO that sustainability and how we treat the planet and the people and the environment is not on the table.
Even 10 years ago at PUMA, if I had a meeting on sustainability in a town hall, there would maybe be 20 people showing up.
Mm.
Now I have 1,000. I think it's not about sustainability, yes or no, it's about how do we do this in the best and most efficient way. Just one final comment. Yes, the language to the younger people is important, but we need the science to do what we say.
Yes.
Because it's very easy to send messages, and there's a lot of greenwashing with words. You need science to renewable energy, you need it to materials, you need it to circularity, and you need it to recycling. Then the consumers also, if you can buy a jeans for GBP 5, it cannot be sustainable.
Mm.
I think we all have a responsibility to kind of act honestly, and if we do that, the change can happen a lot quicker than we think.
On top of that too, I think the intention's a really important part of that, because as brands, the intention needs to come from an authentic place before we get into the messaging, correct? Now you mentioned people turning up to have these conversations, and this conversation is taking place way beyond just this room. We've literally got thousands of people watching online. Hello to everyone watching online. Wish you could have been here. Right. Moving on, Colin. Supply chain is thrown around so much, and even though you are definitely representing a very different team today, supply chain is something that affects your business just as much as PUMA's. Can you explain what that means and why it's important to change the supply chain?
I mean, I think Bjørn put it well when he talked about how kind of our supply chains have changed. I always use the kind of example, for many years we were marauding garmentos, so to speak. The way in which we managed the back end of our supply chains is we kind of sailed country to country in search of the mythical prize of the lowest price. That world has now kind of moved on, and we've had a very different approach to thinking about how we manage that and building relationship with our suppliers. It's one of the things that's important for people here to remember, you know, we actually don't own very many, if any, of our own manufacturing plants. We tend to work with third-party manufacturers, and so those partnerships and relationships are incredibly important.
It's also, again, building a little bit on Bjørn's point, it's also an incredibly complicated business. You know, we talked earlier about footwear and I always kind of use the example that footwear is kind of, it's 12 sizes, it's 52 components, and it's 365 operations, and it's in one factory with 5,000 people, and we make 300 million units a year. We have 15,000 containers.
All right. We get it.
This is a really complicated business.
Yeah.
It's not something that you can necessarily boil down into really simple soundbites. That's not to say that we can't continue to move things forward, and I think the supply chain work that we've done over the past few years, and the collaboration we're starting to see behind the scenes, where we're not competing, where there's clearly benefit to us thinking through how we work together.
Yeah
That's really how we can really start to drive the leverage and start to make the difference that we clearly need to make across the industry.
Right. Bjørn, what exactly is the opportunity here in collaborating with a brand like Under Armour?
Well, first of all, you have to remember that we source our product, mainly by the same suppliers when it gets to materials, when it gets to those making the products and also those who actually ship the product.
Correct.
It's kind of insane that I go to Diamond with one set of standards, and then he comes in another time, then Nike comes, then Adidas comes, and then.
Right.
he has to audit his factory and do standard 16 times because he has 16 customers.
Mm.
If we collaborate and say, "Okay, let's set the same standards. Let's work together." He can do a much more efficient job. We don't drive him crazy. If we all say he should use renewable energy in his plants, why don't we all get together and demand that, and then we actually help him doing that. Same in material development, same with biodegradable. Today, there are many, many brands who are actually doing patents and IPs on biodegradability.
Mm
Which means that if I have a good idea, I hide it from him, which is kind of insane.
Yes.
I mean, what we're talking about, the two of us, and we're trying also to talk to other brands, is why don't we share patents and IP when it gets to sustainability.
Okay. Well, well on that, I have to be realistic, because I'm sure there's a lot of people in the room that are thinking it's all well and good us talking about your collaboration. How realistic is it for brands to say, "You know what? We're not gonna keep this as our IP. We want to share this. This is something everybody should use."?
Is that realistic?
Well, to be honest, we've had stakeholder meetings like this since 2003.
Right.
It's the 20th, I think, next year, but we never made it public. I think the reason why we're making it public now is that people demand that we talk about in an open space because there's nothing to hide.
Yeah.
If we do that, then it's obvious that all brands would like to share. I hope that this meeting will resolve that when we do it next year here, then all the brands are here that we could share with. You know, then it would be easier, you know? Because if all the big brands were sitting here, that makes up, I don't know, 50%-60% of the sports industry, and we say we agree, then you as consumers and NGOs and everything will say, "Okay, so show it then.
Mm.
Because earlier it's been a dialogue one to one, and I think we moved on, you know. Don't forget, underneath us old guys and girls, where's Anne?
There is a bunch of young people that are putting a lot of pressure on us to do something different, you know?
Well, we're gonna hear from some of those young people.
Sure.
in the audience.
That's fair.
They've got questions for you, for sure.
I think it's important, just to build on Bjørn's point, I think it's important to realize we're not talking about distilling how we compete as brands.
Right.
We have to still compete.
Mm.
I'm still gonna kick his ass every day and he's gonna try and kick mine. I'm a bit taller than him, so he's gonna have to kick a little higher. It's not to say that at the back end of the business, where there's clearly no need for us to compete, we shouldn't be working together to figure out how do we make a better world.
Yeah.
How do we address these real issues, and you know, how do we work with our partners to kind of unlock that power and drive towards that. That's achievable, and that's something that I think, you know, I know I'm committed to, and I know Bjørn is too.
Yeah. Louis, I have to come to you now because the suppliers are obviously an incredibly important part of this. I imagine a lot of people, much like myself, that don't know the inner workings of the sneaker business, but have been a huge fan of the sneaker business their entire lives. You'd imagine that a supplier would be rolling their eyes at the idea of new machinery, new technology, having to bring new things in to be sustainable and work with these brands. What made you decide to do it, and how realistic is it for other people in your part of the game to follow suit?
As a supplier, our goal is always create the maximum value for our customer. When we know brands like PUMA support us to do the right things together, we are encouraged to know that we are on the right track.
Mm.
Our investment is in line with the expectation and the goals of our customer. At the same time, it also help us to avoid duplicate efforts. It also avoid conflicting requirements, and that helps us to integrate with our customers' best interests better. I think that's.
Okay.
Um.
Lindita, how would you say this ties into the greenhouse gas reduction efforts and maybe even the Paris Agreement?
Yeah. Well, I mean, as was mentioned many times, climate change is a systemic problem.
Right.
If we are to address it, no one single country or one single company or one single individual can do anything about it. When we look at the fashion industry more specifically, the majority of the impact when it comes to climate is in what we call technically Scope 3 emissions, which is the supply chain emissions. There, of course, it is in the best interest of all companies, be they brands or suppliers, to work together because that's the only way to get to net zero emissions by 2050 or before that, hopefully. At the same time, it means that there's an opportunity for these different players to share costs so that it is not impossible to do by one or two or three or five brands.
I think in the UNFCCC, we have seen that the fashion industry is interested to collaborate. In fact, PUMA has been behind a lot of driving efforts to get the industry together under the framework of UNFCCC. We call it Fashion Industry Charter for Climate Action. What we've done there, it's not that we are experts in fashion industry, we're not. What we have done is we've heard a lot from all these different players, brands and suppliers and NGOs, and industry associations to say, "Where is the opportunity to collaborate better?" The opportunity to collaborate better is in data measuring and tracking. The opportunity to collaborate better is in the raw materials arena. How do we make sure that materials that we use, recycle, reuse, et cetera, are actually giving us that clear environmental and social cost?
How do we make sure that we switch to materials that are low carbon or climate friendly, and what does that mean? What does it mean to get certification for these types of materials? Of course, you look at the element of renewable energy. Scaling energy efficiency is something that makes business sense, so companies will do it anyway. I think it's more about scaling renewable energy in countries that need it the most. How do we work with policymakers to ensure that policy environments are there? How do we work with financial institutions to ensure that the finance flows in the right direction? You know, just putting solar panels on your rooftop, it can work. If you want to do it at scale, you really need the right enabling conditions there.
I think the industry is now working to really identify what the opportunities are for them to do stuff together, but also what are the opportunities to bring other players along outside the fashion industry, because again, we are talking about radical collaboration.
Mm.
We have to learn to let each other into our decision-making processes, and I think PUMA has done it, also in the past with sustainable stakeholder sessions that they've had. I've been there. I've seen those, and I think those conversations are very important. What is also more important is that all of us come into this conversation really positively, with a positive attitude and a constructive attitude, because at the end of the day, it is in our own interest to make it work.
Mm-hmm. Awesome. Okay. Well, we've heard from the industry. No pressure, Anne.
Oh my.
You are essentially here on behalf of the people. I'm fascinated to hear what you have to say off the back of everything that you've heard, because this is your world.
Mm.
You live it and breathe it very much so. What are your thoughts on what we've heard, not just now, but all day?
Well, much like you just said you're not an expert, and I'm also not an expert in manufacturing, nor a CEO of a.
Big company, but I'm here as a filmmaker, as a storyteller. Very passionate about the people that I've met on Climate Frontlines, and if my story sounds anything similar to our prior speaker, Jack, he is my boyfriend. I did show him my notes before this. I'm seeing a few similarities between what he said and what I wrote. But for 5-6 years, we've both been traveling to Climate Frontlines, and you know, you'd be hard pressed, you would really have to not have an ounce of empathy to look into the eyes of the people surviving forced migration refugee crisis throughout, the list goes on, and not connect with this issue. Yes, I'm a storyteller, but I'm also a young person who's frankly terrified.
I'm an eternal optimist, but I have to say the pace of change over the last two months, the momentum with which we are seeing, world-changing events, you know, temperatures in the UK we didn't think we'd see till 2050, is terrifying. I think, like every young person here, I'm desperately trying to navigate what to do and how to act. I'm trying to do the right thing in a deeply imperfect world, and that sort of makes me similar to you guys as well, trying to change extremely complex, imperfect systems. I think that collaboration is beyond a necessity, it's a survival strategy for businesses.
Okay.
Because young people want traceability. We want transparency. We want accountability. It's an absolute necessity. It's long-term strategic thinking, actually. It's an investment in the long term.
Mm-hmm.
I think short-termism is what's got us here. It's super exciting. There is so much opportunity here. I think in the climate space, we speak a lot of sacrifice, but there is incredible opportunity to build a better, fairer, greener world we so desperately and urgently need. Working together, I think we're limitless.
I can see you literally shifting in your chair there, Colin, 'cause you were bursting to comment on that. I mean, do you have any thoughts on this?
No, I'm. It's exciting. I genuinely believe this is a. We will be seeing a phase change, and we have to. You know.
Yeah.
We will see this shift which I believe will continue to gain momentum. Actually, it's an incredibly exciting time. I understand it's a terrifying time, but at the same time, you know, the opportunities for us to do things better, for us to address some of the sins of the past, for us to think through how do we build a better world in all aspects, including equality as well, and the impact of that, we've talked a little bit about today as well, to me is an incredibly empowering thing for me as the leader of a business to really try and think through, how do I unlock that?
Yeah.
'Cause that's the power that drives a business. People don't come to work for money. They do. Once you've got enough money, you come to work for what you believe in.
Yeah.
If you believe you can make the world a better place, well, is there a better mission? Is there a better value? Now, we have, you know, our mission specifically is to make you better, and how do we make the world better? For me, that's incredibly empowering.
What we're saying with that thought, well, how do we make the value chain better?
Well, I think we've had a lot of individual conversations today. One of the things we haven't talked a lot about is data, and I thought you referenced it well. You know, I think one of the things that we can do, certainly as businesses, is thinking how we use data differently, and how it helps inform us to make decisions.
Right.
Now, we're in a world where we actually know, potentially because of the amount of data out there, what consumers wanna buy before they've bought it and before they know they need it. That's a very different world than us making big container loads of goods and shipping them halfway across the world and just sitting them in a warehouse waiting for somebody to pull them off. You know, we need to move beyond that. It needs to be much more targeted, and data's gonna allow us to do that.
Mm.
In ways that we have only just really starting to understand. You know, thinking through how do we actually start to share that information in an appropriate way. It has to be appropriate, because obviously we can't get in the way of our competition. Our competition has to be important just for the way in which we need to work as businesses. From the point of view of just thinking about how we share that data, share that information, to me is something which, again, we're only just starting to understand at the moment.
Would you say you agree with that then, Bjørn, from a PUMA perspective?
Sure. But I think as a manager, I mean, we're living in a schizophrenic world. We're sitting here now, and I think, to be very honest, the last 3-4 months, we've been focused more on, you know, energy crisis.
Right
Inflation, war in Ukraine, what do we do about the people in Russia? There are short-term things coming out of COVID which kind of you'll be measured on. Let's face it, I'm going to be fired next year if I don't reach my targets, not because I'm doing the world better in ten years. This, what you are saying, this balance is what reality is.
Yes.
The difference is that two things. First of all, if you have a value that goes to actually making the world better for our kids, then at least you have a goal. Secondly, the incentives you're getting. I'm paid also on sustainability targets.
Right.
Yes, the report is far too thick, and I don't understand everything in it either. That's how we measure it. All our managers are now also bonused on sustainability. If you set easy targets, they will actually guide it, even if the values sometimes are not right, if you know what I mean. I'm driving an electric car. I'm Norwegian.
Yeah.
You know why I started? Because it was tax-free. You know? Easy. Half of Norway drives electric cars because they don't pay taxes on it.
Yeah.
You can also give incentives to guide people in a direction, and then the values take over, you know? I think we need to do both. We need to set measurable goals, so that we get paid for actually achieving something. The consumer, if they knew that he had good products and I had bad products, if that was the case, which is probably the opposite, I'm just kidding. Of course, people will buy like that. People have no idea.
Mm.
When you go into a store today, you don't know what product is sustainable or not.
As I said, if it's very, very cheap, it's not sustainable.
Right.
I think we should break this up.
Yeah, no, totally. Well, no, but it's true, though. It's like, I think there's many factors. There's one big difference, and that makes me positive. Not one day that we don't talk about-
Correct
Making things that goes in that direction. That was different five years ago.
Yeah. Well, Alice, I was actually gonna come to you next because you mentioned empathy, and I'm really interested to hear just how much empathy as consumers we should be having for these brands when we take into account just some of the things that have been spoken on. Do you think that we should empathize with these brands and the struggles and the targets that they have to hit in the, in the not too distant future?
Bloody yeah. What a question.
It's not like they're in the room or anything.
I think that this is deeply unglamorous, highly technical, highly complicated work.
Mm.
If it's not too much of a cliché, with great power comes great responsibility. Is that in Spider-Man? I don't know. You know, it has a huge and very important impact. I think accountability is incredibly important. Something else I would love to see is humanizing the supply chain. There are, as you say, incredible people.
Right
...the processes in that supply chain. You know, I'm a sucker and relentlessly optimistic and passionate about the power of storytelling, and I think I wanna see more of that. There's a reason we feel so disconnected, that those processes feel so invisible, lacking in transparency. I wanna know what's happening. I wanna know every stage. I wanna know the wonderful people, the real superheroes that are working in that supply chain. I think that's also another hugely exciting sort of opportunity. The other thing is, you know, if we speak about humanity and humanizing the processes, I think equally important is humanizing these conversations and having very human, deeply vulnerable conversations, and that's the power of this conversation right here. It is healing and crucially important for you guys, as you did this morning, to say, "We're trying.
This is difficult, but we haven't got it all worked out, and there's still some way to go.
That level of honesty and truth, it's vulnerability, and it allows the consumer to have trust. 'Cause this is messy, and by the way, as an individual, I'm also navigating this.
Yep.
There are double standards in the way I behave that's hypocrisy. Brands need to get better at not pretending that they're perfect.
Mm.
Embracing that this is a journey of progress and not perfection. Be really honest about that.
Can we have a round for Alice, please? I'm so glad that you are on the panel. Well said. You really are. If you pretend to be perfect, you end up being Will Smith, and we all know how that played out. Let's stick with supply chain. Louis, how do we bring sustainability and factories into the conversation? How is that something that you're implementing?
Sustainability. When we talk about sustainability, I would like to share one fact that Diamond Sports Group has worked with PUMA for over 42 years.
Mm
consecutively. I think it's we earn kind of reputations as a reliable and sustainable business partner through this kind of reliable long-term relationship with our customers. Our workers knows that, our suppliers knows that, some of our other customer knows that, and I think this is kind of priceless credentials for us. If you talk about sustainability, I think trust, what Alice and some other panelists mentioned, is quite important. I would like to add one thing, is people talk about data, those how to measurements. Actually, one of the example Diamond Group has joined together with NGOs and brands is the Higg Index project.
We report our consistent data every day from all our production facilities to the system, and we get to realize how much environmental impact actually we created from our manufacturing activities, which those measurements benchmark not only internally, but also externally. We can realize, and we can make our most practical and meaningful changes.
Mm
...to see the progress. This progress, not only we can see it, our stakeholders all can see it. That's something I would like to share.
Lindita, how much would you say the mindset of us as consumers can change, and what should be top of our priority list?
Consumer changes?
Well, I mean, I think it's interesting though because when we started to work with fashion industry in 2018, I thought that there was so much less transparency than what it is today. You know, there's more and more public information about what companies are doing. For example, under the charter we have the public reporting that is mandatory. There's a strengthened accountability mechanism. Again, for that information to reach the consumers is very difficult because as was mentioned, it's very technical data. You know, you've got all these different standards, and it's really hard to understand what all these different terms mean for you as a consumer if you're not in the space. I think that, you know.
Right now, we are in a situation where we are slowly realizing that the calls of science from, you know, 50 years ago that something is happening, and we need to do something about climate and environment in general. I think that we are now at this really heightened awareness that is out there, and I think consumers do not see themselves just as fashion consumers, but as consumers of energy, consumers of water, consumers of everything else. I think in that context, the consumers need to also be thinking a little bit more holistically. Of course, consumers cannot drive what the industry does. As we know, you know, the demand creates the supply. If we as consumers demand the right things, then we can be sure that at some point we will have that same supply.
Of course, consumers nowadays know that the way in which we are buying things and we're throwing them away is not sustainable and cannot be done going forward. There's different models, different schemes out there about renting, about, you know, recycling, about how you wash your clothes, how you take care of them. There's different things that we can do as consumers and as citizens. I think that will not be sufficient to change current models of production, not just in the fashion industry, but overall. I think that we need the right policy signals. We also need to see this kind of climate action and awareness from the industry being done at scale.
We need more of them to come together and really pave that way for for the future because what we're looking at now, we have about eight years to half emissions, not just as a fashion industry, but as a globe. Is that possible? Solutions are there. Science says it is possible. We can still change the direction. You know, we're in a good time. It is of course uncertain times now with everything else going on, but it is also an exciting time because we know now what kind of future we want as consumers, but also as professionals as well.
Mm-hmm. Alice, what changes do you think we as consumers could and should be making?
I think we've heard a lot, I mean, you mentioned this morning that, you know, overconsumption. I think the climate crisis is as much a crisis of consumption as anything. It's a crisis of disposability, and in that sense, we desperately need a value shift. I think there's a key conversation between the role of corporations versus consumers. Of course, we know, and this is what we've been hearing, corporations need to lead on this.
Mm.
In terms of consumers, I'm really terrified at the moment that we are sort of moving as we see the realities of climate change get worse and worse into a period of despair where the individual doesn't feel powerful. Every day in our storytelling, we ask ourselves how can we give people a sense of agency, make them feel they can make a difference? Because the opposite is to think, "Well, we're fucked, so I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand and not do anything about it." This, I almost think we are, thank God, creeping our way out of a long era of climate denial into an era of climate despair, and that's really, really dangerous. Every one of us has a role to play as a consumer, but beyond that, as a citizen and also as creatives.
I imagine there are brilliant creative minds here. There are amazing creative minds in the audience. The movement needs you. We need to paint a vision of the world that we desperately need to create. We need to harness every tool that we have at our disposal to do that. You know, collaboration, you mentioned it, among fashion brands is absolutely crucial. Collaboration among businesses, between generations, but also between us and nature. We've been at war with our planet. Let's work with her now and learn from her.
Okay. Please get your questions ready, because we're gonna be coming to you shortly. For now, though, we have had some questions sent in. First question is: how can competitors in the industry find a way to work together without compromising their own success? Bjørn?
Well, I think there's enough areas where we can compete. We don't need to do it on supply chain and sustainability.
Yeah.
Mm.
I have better athletes than him. That's why I sell more than him. It's easy.
I do better marketing. I do better design. That's fine. I think there are things when it gets to dealing with the factories, dealing with freight, dealing with materials, dealing with take-back systems, why should we have that alone?
Yeah.
I think we haven't mentioned the retailers here.
Right
I think many of you forget one thing, that the front end to our consumers, not us. I have thousand stores. I don't know how many you have.
Yeah.
Our retailers have 30, 50, 100,000. The retailer needs to sit there because it's easier for one to go to Foot Locker and give the shoes back than it is to look for an outlet for PUMA.
Yes.
I think there are areas that we don't need to compete on. There's so many other levels, you know?
Colin, how about yourself? From an infrastructure standpoint, is there anything that could be shared or that could be done?
No, it's not. I mean, we're on a journey, aren't we? You know, it's we're working through that process, as Bjørn said. I mean, we're working with the factories and just understanding that back end of the business.
Yeah
How we kind of engage with them is an obvious place where we can move things forward. We also talked a little bit about take back and think and, you know, thinking about how do we actually bring product back for consumers and bring it back into our supply chain. I'm not gonna be able to firewall off my Under Armour supply chain from a PUMA supply chain from a Nike. It makes no sense. If we're gonna take products back, I should be taking Bjørn's products back, and he should be taking mine, and we should be re-engineering them back into product in ways that are appropriate and efficient and done appropriately.
I will just wanna reference something Alice said because I thought, you know, one of the things I was reflecting on as Alice was talking is there's a model called the House of Change. I'm not sure if you've ever seen it. Go online and look it up. It talks about how you move through kind of a house, and you start off with denial. One room is denial.
Yeah.
Then you go into the dungeon of despair, and then ultimately, you go into the room of renewal. I think we're in the dungeon of despair at the moment. I think we need to figure out how we get into that renewal, and I think there's enough impetus, I believe, and there's enough energy, and we have to get into that kind of next kind of iteration. To be frank with you, that's one of the reasons I'm sitting here today.
Yeah.
Because, you know, I'm committed to help the industry get there, and I know many of my colleagues not, that are not sitting on the stage today, to be frank with you, that and Anne-Laure and I work with, are also committed to doing the same thing. I think we're, yeah, we're moving.
Okay. Well, the questions do keep coming. These are specifically to yourselves again. I'm sorry, Bjørn and Colin, putting you under pressure here, but there's another question for you both. Does your message change if you are addressing investors and not an audience of young people? I'll add on to that, and thousands of people watching at home and people with a social media account right now probably tweeting everything that you're saying. Does it change?
I mean, you are aware that we as public companies are reporting to the investors every quarter.
Correct.
99% of the questions over the last quarters have been price increases, China situation, war in Ukraine and inflation. It's true that, yes, the investors talk about sustainability and index, but if you talk with them for one hour, it takes one minute. There is a big difference between the short-term financial, or should I say market, and the things that we talk about here. I know you're just an interim CEO, right?
Correct.
We laugh about this because we're all only interim, you know? It's like you borrow the company for a short period of time, and you need to please the short-term and the long-term. That's the way it is, you know. That's why it's so important that, you know, we take certain things as value, and that is the things we talk about. The other thing is we compete very, very hard on the short-term issues, and that is the schizophrenic situation that we are in. But yes, the investors, especially now when we're going into the most difficult time, I think in the industry has had. You have to remember we're coming out of COVID, and now we have double-digit inflation in all the markets.
We have the energy crisis, and we will have consumer demand going down, which maybe is good for someone, but short-term is difficult for us and we're going to go into a very difficult time in the financial market. The reality is that you're always trying to balance and the questions are very, very different.
Sure. Okay.
I would also just say that I think if you think of the stock price as a reflection of the future value of your organization, which is what actually a stock price is, you know, investors are looking to understand the future value of your organization. You know, companies that can really articulate this well in the way in which the consumers are looking to engage within this area will ultimately, I believe, actually drive up the value for companies that are invested in this. I mean, it's not only just, like, the right thing to do for the planet, it's the right thing to do for business as well, because ultimately you get those two things together and it can be exponentially better.
Okay, let's move on to questions in the room. If you have a question, please get your hand up. We will find you with a microphone. We have a question at the back. Let's start over there with this gentleman. Please say your name.
My name's Ted.
Hello, Ted. Where are you from, Ted?
I'm from London originally.
What size shoe are you, Ted?
Ten.
A 10?
Yeah.
U.K.
Good.
We've got some in the back.
You can hook me up, yeah.
Yeah, we'll look after you. I think that Bjørn's a size 10, so he'll take off his shoes for you.
Appreciate that.
Sustainability, look at that. What's your question?
I've got a question for Bjørn. It's a key feature of the circular economy is keeping products at their highest value in the chain for as long as possible in use. There may be a conflict between repeat sales, so people buying products again and keeping products in use for longer, so their durability. How does PUMA intend to manage this?
Well, that's a difficult question. Of course, you know that reality is that we both need to grow. I mean, that's how you create value publicly. I think what we need to do is to try to find ways of being more efficient with how we actually make the products that we sell more of. The more you do circular, the better it is. If you look at soccer jerseys we talked about, we think that we can reuse 75% of the material to build the next jerseys. Manchester City can actually play in the same jersey year after year, but it just looks different. It's the same material. I think that's where we need to work on.
To set targets that we should sell less because that's good for the planet. I think that will be the next generation. I think we also should be aware that when you talk about overconsumption, that's in the Western world. If you go to other markets, you go to Africa, you go to India, you go to China, they have not been through the same wealth that we have. I think we also need to balance a little bit where things are in the world. The fact of the matter is that in his countries, he's been producing for us all the time. He's been producing for me in Norway and you in England, and he's not been producing for his local people in Vietnam or in.
We also have to be honest that, you know, we take also a little bit of blame in the Western world for where we are and not push all the thing to the guys that we now are saying are polluting the most, because that's very, very unfair. We at least, I think we all have the same idea. We will continue to try to grow, but to grow in a very, very efficient way, so what we are actually taking away from the planet is less and less and less and less, and maybe one day we can get to almost 100% circularity. That would be the best.
Great. Thank you so much for your question that you just came up with on the fly and definitely didn't write down. Appreciate that. Okay, let's get another question from the audience. Let's go to the front row. Just here. I think anybody with a dress as flamboyant deserves the microphone.
Thank you. I believe there were protesters outside from the Boycott Puma campaign, and they are accusing PUMA of having business operations in illegal Israeli settlements. I just wanna hear your stance on that.
Do you wanna answer?
Nope, that one's all yours.
I mean, this has nothing to do with sustainability, but I can answer. I saw them too, BDS for people. Yes, our distributor in Israel is sponsoring the Israeli national team. The Israeli national team is member of FIFA and UEFA and play international tournaments. They have. I think the last time they had a squad, they had 23 Jewish people, 6 Muslims and 3 with other backgrounds. The players play mostly around in all of Europe, and they play national games against Norway or England. We have absolutely no sponsorships in the settlements. So I think when people make this story, they're trying to say that we should not sponsor Israel. But we don't sponsor the Israeli government, we sponsor the players that actually play for the national team.
We gave exactly the same offer when we did this or have distributed to the Palestine national team, which is also a member of UEFA and FIFA. Again, I mean, I'm sorry, it's like I don't know what to do because I can say, "No, I don't sponsor Israel anymore when the contract runs out," but then I have the Israelis attacking us, right? Now I have the Palestinians. Whatever you do is wrong. I think as a sports company, we sponsor athletes, and as long as the athletes are not political, why shouldn't we give them the equipment? That's how it is. I don't have any other answer.
Well, thank you for answering, and thank you so much for the question. Okay, before we come back to the audience, I'm gonna ask a question that's just as easy to answer. Has there been progress with workers' rights in the supply chain as well?
We're gonna give.
I think this one's yours. I'm not sure.
Regarding the social compliance, I think, Diamond Sports Group we have factory in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Indonesia. For the last 5 years, these 4 countries are short of labor. Social compliance no longer our obligation. It's become our advantage. If we really want to have sufficient capacity, we need to increase the social compliance. We need to add a lot of new benefits. Social compliance in these 4 countries, for me, it's not like 10 years ago, that's forced labor. If you read the local news, if you see the local labor market, all advertisement, every factory look for workers. I'm more confident that the fair labor issues now is much better. I also want to use another example of as the collaboration.
Since 2007, we work with PUMA and Fair Labor Association. I think Under Armour is one of the founder of FLA. We developed the concept of decent wage. We do multiple rounds of wage survey, try to use decent wage to replace the minimum wage. That's 2007. Now I think it's not a popular topic because if you look at Vietnam, every factory use double the minimum wage as the entry level of the salary standard. That's my answer to this.
Okay. Fair play. Let's come back to you guys in the room. Please put your hand up. Scary Spice has a question.
Sorry. Hi, it's me again. You touched on it previously with the previous question, and we're just talking about, like, you've got to meet your targets. You as a business, any business in any industry has to grow economically to survive and to thrive. I think my question is, like, looking forward, how do you change your business model to do the whole decouple growth from your emissions or decouple growth from resource depletion. It's like, please don't have to disclose any competitively sensitive information. Yeah, how do you, looking forward, change your business model, change your strategy to be able to both grow economically as a business, but also reduce emissions and reduce resource depletion?
I mean, we have committed to very, very clear targets. You know, we wanna be net zero in 2050. We wanna halve, actually go down 60% by 2030. If you look at our own, you know, we're using 100% renewable energy in everything that PUMA owns. Of course, the challenge now is to transfer that into the rest of the supply chain. Again, you know, the investments that we need to do with our partners is something we need to collaborate on. There are very, very clear targets in how we can actually reduce the emissions, and they are not in conflict with the financial targets because they cannot be, you know. This is why I'm saying is that there is
We need what should I say, scientists to help us on the material side. We need to help them on actually setting up, you know, renewable energy, for example, in Vietnam, which is a problem. If we do that together, then these what should I say, targets on the climate will actually come automatically because we're doing it. We will compete in marketing and design and all the rest because that's what we have to do. I think a leader that sits here and tells you that he is not going to grow because he's going to save the planet is not telling the truth, because that's not the way it works, you know. We need to be more efficient in the way we use the resources.
That's why we have scientists on many areas. Again, you know, if it's the RE:SUEDE or if it's the RE:JERSEY or other projects on different technologies, that's coming from the science. I hear you guys that you don't understand what they're saying because it's complicated, even for me. I think we need storytellers to tell those stories that you consumers believe in what we're doing. Behind it, you need a book like this, like that, because you need to measure everything, you know. I mean, I have to be honest, 25 years ago in the industry, we were doing chemicals that were really bad. I mean, he didn't care what he put in the shoes because we didn't demand anything.
Mm.
Now, you know, with all the, what should I say, regulation we have on chemicals, it's changed dramatically, you know. That's why you need to combine science, how you measure it, how you report it, with how we're actually telling the stories. I think we have not been good at telling the stories to you. I think we're very good telling the stories about Rihanna or Neymar or whatever, but we haven't been as good at the storytelling on the sustainability thing, and that's, you know, why we need young people. You should be aware, and then I'll shut up. In our office in Germany, the head office, our average age is about 28 years old.
The people that are working on this now is not us. It is young people. I think you will see that pretty quickly. Why are you laughing?
I'm 28. Time's tick.
It's just the way it is, you know? We are a very young industry on the creative side also when it gets-
Right
In this direction. The people you saw here today and a lot of the young PUMA people are working only on sustainability also.
Colin, what's the answer from the Under Armour perspective?
I think again, I think Bjørn hit most of it. What gets measured gets managed. You know, I think, you know, at the end of the day, I think these kind of conversations, stakeholder engagements and having stakeholders give us input is incredibly important, and that's one of the reasons I'm sitting here today. I mean, you asked Alice earlier whether she should have empathy for us brands. No. Hell, she shouldn't have empathy for us. She should be holding us to help drive things forward in a way, but in a way that at least is respectful and understanding of the challenges that we're dealing with, because it ain't easy. You know, there are gonna be issues. There's gonna be three steps forward and two steps back, but we need to be held accountable.
Mm-hmm.
We will continue to execute against that, and we will grow our business. It doesn't necessarily just have to be incremental growth. It doesn't mean I have to sell more shoes to you as the normal Under Armour competitor. What I need to do is sell more Under Armour shoes to the PUMA customer because ultimately I or the Nike customer or the Adidas customer.
That's okay.
who are, you know, I can increase the size of my pie, and that's where we should compete. We should compete actually on the level playing field from that point of view, not from the point of view of how we're actually driving these things forward. I think we'll get to the right things, and I think we're leaning into it the right way.
Fantastic question. Thank you so much. I know. I'm tempted to come to you for a question, but we genuinely are out of time. There's a little thing on this screen right now that's screaming.
Switch off.
Profanity at me. It's very rude. I won't repeat that. I'm gonna give the last word to you, Alice, on this. We've touched on so many things throughout the day, and we've had what I think is a really interesting conversation. As I said at the beginning, you are essentially our mouthpiece for the people here. You've got the ear of two CEOs and thousands of people around the world watching. What would you have to say on what it is that we've discussed today?
Yes.
Hopefully a good takeaway.
No pressure.
No pressure. I mean,
Uh.
Don't be shit.
No. Bjørn, you said you mentioned radical collaboration, and I love that sentence, that phrase, because we're living in radical times.
I would invite us all and our panelists and my... I was about to say fellow CEO. It's not fellow CEO. The CEOs here, we also need radical imagination, and I wonder whether we can reimagine how things work, improve those systems and frameworks that haven't been serving us.
Amazing. Can we please put our hands together for an incredible panel? Thank you.
My pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay. I'm gonna steal Colin and Bjørn to accompany to center stage. Can you make some noise for the rest of our panel, please? Come on, Bjørn. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I thought we were gonna come to fisticuffs during that conversation, but we didn't. There were no blows thrown or bloodshed. Thank the world. Thank the Lord even. Okay. Well, that's it. That is the end of our first ever Conference of the People powered by PUMA. Thank you so much for staying with us to the end. Thank you for being so incredible and giving us so much energy and some fantastic questions and challenging questions as well. She's making that face, but it was needed, and we genuinely appreciate that. Takeaways.
There's nothing worse than coming to something like this and spending a day and just going home and forgetting about it. Let's start with you, Anne. What would you say your biggest takeaway from the day has been?
Well, first, my biggest takeaway is let's make sure that we can tell the story so people understand. Let's make it digestible and make it understandable, so we can bring that collaboration with the Gen Z to the next level. Because I think this need of making it easy to understand, and I really value what you said. I'm happy you have empathy for us because we need a bit of empathy because it's not easy every day, trust me. You know, it's basically this get together needs to go through storytelling and making sure your voice is with us to make that I would say digestible, understandable for everybody.
Colin, your biggest takeaway.
I'm excited and grateful for the conversation. I think you know you have to kind of get the facts out there and understand the kind of playing field before you can work through actually how you execute change and how you drive change within businesses. That's kind of what we do. We drive change in businesses. Actually having these kind of spirited, deep, gritty conversations is ultimately which provides the traction for brands and businesses to move forward. I think this has been an amazing day, and I'd like to again thank the team from PUMA and for everyone here for being part of the. It's been a great conversation, so thank you.
Bjørn, just to finish, with you.
What about the biggest takeaway from a PUMA perspective?
I don't think I can add anything other than I think both internal stakeholder meeting and external, and I think we talked about it, we should probably try to do a meeting like this regularly and invite more brands and also retailers, because I think it's a very good forum. Secondly, in the internal stakeholder, I would like to invite some of the young people here to kind of be a young voice panel, because I think it's very smart to have external young people listening to that internal meeting.
Mm-hmm
We'll look at how we can do it and then invite some of you and see if you can help us. Then I hope that the whole group would like to come together again in a year or two or whatever what the other brands will do.
are you gonna send your electric car to come and pick them up? Is that what you're doing?
That's in Germany.
Okay. Fine. German talent only. Say no more. Before we leave, Anne, what would you like our audience to leave with in the front of their minds? Is there anything in particular you want people to be thinking about as they go home? Anne?
Stay positive. I think this is an incredible opportunity, and we need to maintain a positive attitude towards the challenge we have. Yes, there's a lot of anxiety, me the first, but we need to really try and manage it and turn that into something constructive and positive and continue to transform the industry together.
Awesome.
You've been incredible today. So thank you so much for contributing as much as you have done. To everybody watching at home around the world, thank you so much for being a part of it. Thank you for sending in your questions. Remember, anyone who wants to be social in a 2022 way, please use the hashtag #PUMACOP. We really appreciate you engaging as much as you have done, and thank you for making yourselves available in the way that you have done as well.
Thank you.
Applause for you.
Thank you.
Thank you. That's nice. Thank you. I'll take it. Thank you. You can stop now. If I had an earpiece in, they'll be telling me, "Shut 'em up. We haven't got time for them to clap you." We genuinely have to get out of here. One more time, can you please make some noise for our CEOs? Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you very much everyone watching online and goodbye. Now, while the people online say goodbye to us, I just wanted to say to you guys, it's not over. There is still free drink, and Bella is actually gonna come back out.