Good afternoon and welcome to Metsä Board's half year report webcast and conference call. My name is Katri Sundström and I'm responsible for Investor Relations at Metsä Board. As you may notice, our format has changed. From now on, we will be holding our result presentations as live webcasts instead of audiocasts. Otherwise, the structure remains the same. CEO Esa Kaikkonen and CFO Henri Sederholm will present the results, after which we will open the conference call for questions. In addition, you can submit questions through the chat function by typing them into the text box visible on your screen and I will then present them here to the management. An important reminder and disclaimer that the presentation includes forward-looking statements. Now we are ready to begin once more. Thank you for joining us today and I will now hand over to Esa.
Thank you Katri and good afternoon everyone. Before moving on to the results, let's take a moment to review the current market landscape we are facing. Weak consumer sentiment and cautious spending have continued to hold back demand for packaging materials. Geopolitical instability, U.S. import tariffs is adding further uncertainty. Even though there is a preliminary deal between U.S. and EU now, the market balance, especially in the EMEA area, has been disrupted by capacity growth, and lastly, high wood costs are putting pressure on our competitiveness. To strengthen our competitiveness and adapt our cost structure as we announced earlier today, we are launching a transformation program focused on improving profitability. In addition to the cost savings, we aim to enhance our commercial capabilities and leverage our core competitive strengths. I will return to the details of the program later in my presentation.
In a very tough market situation, Metsä Board has several competitive advantages which have secured our leading position in high quality packaging materials. First and foremost, our employees are not only highly skilled but also motivated and deeply committed to Metsä Board's development. Our paperboard production is based on years of deep expertise, and our product quality constantly receives high ratings in customer service. We have also numerous long-term customer relationships that value the high performance of our boards and the wide range of services we offer. Finally, customers appreciate our high sustainability level and the transparent value chain which is supported by being part of Metsä Group. Together, all of these form a solid foundation for the transformation. Now let's move on to the results, starting with a brief overview of Q2. Our comparable operating result was clearly negative at -EUR 23 million.
The decline from Q1 was greater than we had anticipated earlier. The main reasons were the continued weakness in the pulp market and more extensive production curtailments. The main reasons in particular U.S. tariffs have increased uncertainty and negatively affected order inflows. Cash flow remained negative as it did in Q1. Looking ahead, we will place particular emphasis on improving cash flow with the progress expected already Q3 through tighter operative working capital management. There was also a long repair shutdown at Metsä Fibre's Kemi mill where the damaged evaporator units were replaced with new ones. During the shutdown, Metsä Board's kraftliner production was also halted. Finally, the closure of the Tako mill was completed at the end of June. Production was successfully transferred to Kyro where operations were also streamlined. These measures are expected to improve our annual EBITDA by approximately EUR 30 million starting from Q4.
Total paperboard delivery volumes reached 360,000 tonnes in Q2, slightly below our earlier expectations of stable volumes compared to Q1. Our delivery volumes remain clearly below the capacity to return to the growth path. We must take proactive steps, sharpening our commercial focus and making more effective use of our services. Year to date, the sales split for both folding boxboard and white kraftliners showed no major deviations between the review periods. However, total volumes were lower than the same period last year, even though deliveries in 2024 were negatively impacted by political strikes in Finland. Metsä Board's market pulp deliveries in Q2 totaled just 86,000 tonnes, the lowest quarterly volume in several years. Year to date deliveries also lagged behind the corresponding period last year. In contrast, Metsä Fibre's deliveries increased compared to the same period in 2024.
We also curtailed production at the Husum pulp mill and BCTMP mills more than initially anticipated at the beginning of the quarter. Demand for softwood market pulp has remained weak in both Europe and China with no clear sign of near-term improvement. In June, Metsä Fibre announced a temporary shutdown of its Joutseno pulp mill to adjust inventory levels in response to low order volumes, particularly from Asia. In addition to the sluggish market, European pulp producers' competitiveness has been impacted by high wood costs and the weakening of the U.S. dollar against the Euro. Now over to Henri for a closer look at the financials.
Thank you, Esa, and good afternoon, everyone. Let's start with the top line. Our Q2 sales declined by 5% compared to Q1 and by 10% year- on- year. The main driver behind this decline was lower delivery volumes in both paperboard and market pulp. Profitability in the second quarter was very unsatisfactory and worse than we had anticipated. The first half of the year resulted in break even. Next, let's look at the bridge analysis of items affecting the operating result. The main result drivers were fairly consistent across both comparison periods. Metsä Fibre's negative earnings contribution was smaller than in the corresponding periods last year, and this led to a positive impact. In Q2, paperboard prices rose slightly in local currencies. However, this positive effect was offset by the weakening of the U.S. dollar.
On the negative side, lower delivery volumes, production volumes of paperboard and market pulp, along with adverse currency effects, burdened the result. Fixed costs and depreciation were higher in both periods. During the review period, wood and logistics costs rose while chemical costs declined. As a result of poor profitability development, our return on capital employed remains well below our target level of 12%. At the end of the review period, capital employed amounted to EUR 2.6 billion. Now the cash flows, which have been in the red for several quarters, although the decline is showing signs of stabilization. In addition to weak earnings, our operating cash flow has been particularly impacted by capital tied up in product inventory. We have already initiated measures to release working capital, and we expect the results to be reflected in cash flow in the second half of the year.
Furthermore, investments in 2025 will be clearly lower than during the last five years. It is also worth noting that our operating cash flow is affected by dividends received from our sister company Metsä Fibre. Negative cash flow has impacted our interest-bearing net debt, which stood at EUR 430 million at the end of the period. Combined with weak profitability, this pushed our leverage above the target level, reaching 2.9x. Despite exceeding our target of 2.5x, our financial position remains stable. During the review period, we issued a new 6-year EUR 200 million green bond. This transaction extends our debt maturity profile and supports our ambitious 2030 sustainability targets. That concludes the financial review. Back to you, Esa.
Thank you, Henri. Before moving on to the outlook, let's take a quick look at our investments as well. The major investment projects are now behind us, and our focus is shifting to making the most of the recent capacity expansions. This means sharpening our sales and marketing efforts, which I will touch on shortly. We are lowering our CapEx guidance for 2025 and estimate that our investments will be landing at approximately EUR 100 million. The renewal of the simple paperboard machine will be completed this year, with a major shutdown scheduled for September. We are also critically reviewing ongoing pre-engineering projects and will provide an update on them latest in the Q3 interim report. Now on to the near-term outlook, which remains uncertain. Weak consumer goods demand and U.S. tariffs continue to reduce the predictability of paperboard sales.
We expect our paperboard delivery volumes in Q3 to remain relatively flat compared to Q2. Variable costs excluding pulp are expected to stay stable. In Q3, there will be more planned annual maintenance than in Q2. At Simpele, an investment-related shutdown lasting approximately one month is scheduled. We will also continue market-related and working capital reduction-driven curtailments at nearly all mills, which will negatively impact the results. The weak pulp market is expected to continue. The total impact of pulp will be significantly weighed on Q3 profitability. Based on this outlook, we estimate that our comparable operating result in Q3 2025 will be weaker than in the last quarter. That concludes the review of our results. Let's now turn our focus to the future and the transformation program we announced this morning. We cannot simply wait for the market conditions to improve.
Instead, we must take decisive, immediate actions to cut our cost base, improve the profitability, and drive focused value creation. It's essential that we actively leverage our core strengths, those I highlighted at the beginning of my presentation, and concentrate on the markets and customer segments that deliver the greatest value. We must improve our profitability and strengthen our cash flow. As I stated, without delay, we are launching a Profitability Improvement, a cost savings program aimed at achieving an annual EBITDA improvement of EUR 200 million, fully realized by the end of 2026. On the cost side, we are implementing a broad set of measures including optimized sourcing and use of raw materials, as well as reduction in unit costs, some of which are already underway. In terms of fixed cost, we see clear potential for savings in all overheads, group level shared services, and ICT expenses.
To improve profitability, we are sharpening our commercial focus by redefining key customer segments and aligning our sales efforts to support the profitable growth. To succeed, we must also make better use of our service offering. Supply chain efficiency will be enhanced by streamlining the product portfolio and reducing the complexity. Strengthening the cash flow is now a key priority. Our target is to release EUR 150 million in working capital by the end of this year, with a particular focus on optimizing inventory management. Where we see significant opportunities for improvement, key performance will be followed and improvement program will be defined during the third quarter. Progress will be reported as well on a quarterly basis. Alongside profitability improvements, we need sustainable growth and must consistently deliver value, especially to our key customers. Given the current high level of uncertainty in the U.S.
market, we are shifting our focus also towards accelerating growth in Europe. In the past years, we have been too dependent on the growth in the U.S. market. The U.S. will remain our core market where our goal is to maintain the strong position we built over the decades. Growth in the U.S. will primarily come from deepening relationships with our existing customers. Reducing complexity in our product portfolio means sharpening our focus on food, food service, healthcare, and other strongest growing brand segments supported by our strong sustainability credentials. Regulation is still one of our most important growth drivers. We must leverage this more effectively, particularly in our product development efforts. To support this transformation, we are also reshaping our leadership team. I'm very happy about receiving new people into my management teams.
These changes will ensure that we have the right capabilities in place to achieve our targets, strengthen the cash flow, improve the profitability, and ensure the sustainable growth. The new members joining the management team bring valuable expertise to support the company's strategic priorities. Erja Hyrsky strengthens the team with her commercial excellence. Minna Björkman brings strong industrial leadership, and Laura Remes will focus on the execution of key transformation initiatives. Welcome new members as well. Here are the next steps. What is to be expected during the third quarter: we will move forward with more detailed planning and execution of the transformation program. We will be defining also clear indicators and set clear targets for each initiative. Progress will be tracked and reported on a regular basis. We will be critically reviewing our ongoing investment pre-engineering projects, including the ERP program that we have been informing you about earlier.
In addition, we will be updating our overall strategy and financial targets as well, aiming to present this by the end of the first quarter of 2026. With this, I conclude my presentation, and we're ready now for your questions. Thank you.
Okay, let's first
If you wish to ask a question, p lease dial the pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you and good day, gents and everyone listening in on these incredibly ambitious cost savings and profit improvement measures that you are launching today. Could you please share some more detail? What are the main buckets here, and is it right to understand that half of the EUR 200 million is across the board cost savings and half of it is commercial measures like more sales, which will have an impact on operating rates and top line? A bit more detail would be super helpful.
Thank you.
Okay, thank you. Thank you for the question. I would say that as I was actually elaborating earlier, the EUR 200 million is divided both in cost savings and then profitability improvement. I think that we were actually opening in our press release also quite extensively those items that we have been looking at, as there are very, very many different items throughout the whole value chain where we have to improve the profitability. It's not only those issues. You were referring to the top line. I think that is of course the aim at the end of the day, to grow the business. As I said, we have been too dependent on the U.S. growth earlier in the past 10 years, and now we are shifting the focus also to the European market.
I think that we have been identifying a lot of new, let's say, initiatives throughout the value chain where we can really, if you look in the sales, for instance, sales side, I think that we are not currently using our services to leverage, provide the services for the growth initiatives. Through that also actually to the product development and then in the supply chain, just an example on the product development, when we really can develop the recipes in a way that they would be more efficient than they are today, still keep the good quality that is appreciated by the customers. If you go to the supply chain side, we have been dealing with our customer base, as you understand that we have plenty of customers and we have been dealing with them decades.
Through those decades, there is a lot of complexity coming on regarding the offering and also how we operate in the markets where we are having the warehouses, how the logistics is operating. Through that, you go to the production side and you aim to have production runs that are more efficient from the cost perspective and also from the runnability point of view, getting the ORs and OEEs higher level. That's in a nutshell. I think that plenty of discussions will be now actually carried on in our internal discussions to have detailed plans. This is based really on a robust analysis that we have been doing together with my management team and also with the senior management. I think that we have plentiful, let's say, task list now on these initiatives. I'm pretty sure that we can really carry out good results out of this program.
How much is a higher operating rate part of these EUR 200 million that you're targeting? Is that at all a part of it?
I think that it's not something that we can today predict what would be the clear impact on the operating rate as such. We aim to have as high operating rate as possible, but we'll be seeing the results when we are collaborating with the customers and internally as well, in order to get best out of this program.
Right. Maybe on more of the short-term market dynamics, if we talk about the U.S. market for a moment, looking at your slides, the paperboard shipments in the first half were clearly down when it comes to linerboard, but actually not so much for folding boxboard. I wonder what you're seeing and experiencing in the U.S. market in terms of current order books and your anticipation for the third and the fourth quarters in the U.S. market. Please.
If you're looking at the overall market situation, I think that this uncertainty that is related to the tariffs, it was the greatest in the last quarter. I think that we are basing our hypothesis that there will be tariffs in the level of 15% as of 1st of August. I think that that is the level that we can live with. Clearly we were able to push the prices in local currencies up during Q2 based on the tariffs in FBB. Further increases will be more difficult. WKL, I see better opportunities also going forward because there is no, let's say, substitute on a WKL than in FBB, fighting against SBS mainly in the U.S. market. I see that we have an opportunity based on our, let's say, good commercial relationships. We can turn the trend upward.
Again, I don't say that it comes in Q3, but eventually it will be following and we can get these tariffs absorbed to the prices at some point of time. I can't promise when it happens, but I see clear opportunities based on the discussions that we have had in the markets with our customers.
Right, that sounds good. How far have you come in folding boxboard and kraftliner respectively in terms of absorbing this tariff at this stage?
I think that we have been able to push the prices and the cost of tariffs almost 100% in FBB. It's been a bit tougher and we have had to make some concessions, but they're not substantial.
That's great. Finally, just one more question and that's on paperboard. In terms of production in the third quarter, what do you expect? Do you expect higher, lower, or the same level of production as in the second quarter in paperboard specifically?
Something that will be of course based hypothesis that we have two major shutdowns. One is investment related in Simpele where we have a five weeks shutdown in Simpele, and then Husum annual maintenance break. Those are taking a toll on our capacity rates this quarter. I think that the level of the production precise numbers we cannot give because we will be following the order inflow as well, and we will not be compromising our cash flow targets currently. Really difficult to estimate currently the exact amount of the production.
Sorry, maybe if I rephrase that. If you look at, how should we say it, maintenance plan, maintenance neutral. If you see what I mean. I mean more from a neutral point of view, do you see rising operating rates or falling operating rates from the second quarter level?
The million dollar question, I would say, because it is like that now we have to see what will be the discussions with the customers in the U.S. and how this tariff situation will be resolving these uncertainties that we have currently in that market. Currently, it has a significant impact on our order inflow. If you take rolling for four or five weeks, it has, let's say, significant impact, negative impact on our order inflows. At the same time, I'm positive that we can turn this trend also, that it can turn pretty fast also when the deal is sealed and the decisions are finally made and kind of a table has been settled. After that, I expect that the order inflow is also catching up. Difficult to say Q3 order inflow.
No, that's very helpful. Thanks a lot.
The next question comes from Robin Santa virta from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yes, thank you very much. If I start with the question continuation from Linus's question related to North America, looking at the deliveries in the quarter, roughly 100,000 tons of paperboard there, how much of those 100,000 tons did you already ship before the tariff increase? Is that half of that or 2/3? Trying to sort of understand where the profitability in a way hit or impact comes because I guess you have some inventory there sitting under. Some of the deliveries or sales in Q2 were actually paperboard that you had already shipped before the tariffs increased.
I think that the specific answer I will be handing over to Henri, but taking the first, let's say steam out of this question because we really had, of course, landed stock there, common stock, and then made to order stock as well. That was all, let's say, partly tariff free. We had to postpone some of the shipments, of course, and some of the production because of the order inflow. Maybe I will be handing over to Henri if you have more specific information on these numbers.
There is not much to add to that. It was a mix of both tariff free and also production that already included the tariffs, but we do not disclose the more detailed numbers.
Can I ask when you say that the ordering inflow has been weak in the past four to five weeks, is that now reflecting in a way the price increase of your products? Essentially, when during the quarter did you raise the kraftliner around folding boxboard prices? Was it five weeks ago when in a way what you sell there carries the tariffs, or was it before?
In that sense, it also depended on the timing and everything depended a bit on the discussions with the customer. We are not operating with our customers based on the one fits for all principles. We had a dialogue, of course, especially with the FPP customers. It is a customer-specific question and it's difficult to say what was the exact timing of different price increases. We did those price increases immediately when the tariffs came in. That was the basic principle. There were several exceptions as well.
I understand. Thanks. Can I just, as related to Q3, now you look at roughly unchanged delivery volumes Q1 Q, but then you state that over the past five weeks the order intake has been quite weak in the U.S. Do I understand it correctly that you expect this 15% now, the decision in a way to reduce uncertainty and increase order inflow, or do you expect to replace those U.S. volumes in other markets?
In this time schedule? Robin, I think that it's really difficult to so fast swiftly actually allocate the new resources in this situation. Of course, supply-demand balance is challenging, et cetera. It's not so easy in the current circumstances to do that fast swift movements on a volume allocation, I would say, also in there. In our view, we'll be prioritizing our cash flows, and that will have an impact and toll in the EBIT that we have. That is something, the compromise we were taking at this time because of the answer. As long as we are seeing that the order inflows recovers.
I understand. Can I just ask on the big profitability improvement program? It seems to be an exceptionally big number. I looked at the four quarters. You generated some EUR 150 million in EBITDA and then EUR 200 million +EUR 30 million from company specific items. I assume that EUR 200 million + EUR 30 million from Tako and Kyro does not assume an improving market environment. It would be a 150% increase in EBITDA simply from company specific items. It's very, very seldom in this industry we see those kind of improvements, and only in two years. Is this a net number, the EUR 230 million, or a gross number? Because quite often when you cut costs and cut production, you also lose a little bit of top line and you might end up getting some other cost and so forth. Is this a net number or gross number?
Henry, can you elaborate this a bit from your perspective? You're looking at the numbers more in detail.
I think as you define it, I think this is more like a net number. This is EUR 200 million net on top of the current profitability level.
Having said this, I think that the EUR 150 million EBITDA level is not our run rate currently. That must be correct in a way. It's the current business, current business, let's say, performance level that we are aiming to improve.
I understand. Just quickly checking the production platform, we can see you're not producing at capacity and we understand, for example, Joutseno is a quite efficient production facility, albeit a lot of that goes to the U.S. One would think that it could be smart to close more capacity and just run up the capacity utilization at the more efficient mills and by that improving profitability. Does this program include potential closure of production capacity in paperboards?
Yeah, I think that most of the producers these days have a capability on the multi mill concepts. I think that that is exactly what we are doing as well, and that makes us partly strong as well. I think that we can shift some of the businesses from the other mills, smaller mills, to a bigger mill as well to some extent. There are of course some quality issues and some structural issues in our offering that hinders us to do it in full. That is something that of course is an issue that we have to elaborate further. It was really good, good point that you made. This plan is not actually including any closures. I'm stressing this. There is a weaker capacity in the market than our capacity. Our capacity is up to date and let's say modern and efficient.
Thank you very much.
The next question comes from Samu Wilhelmsson from Nordea Credit Research. Please go ahead.
Hi and thank you for taking my question. I had two questions regarding the cash flow. As already mentioned here a few times, your measures seem indeed quite ambitious and the working capital release of EUR 150 million for the next six months sounds also quite massive. You mentioned focusing on inventory management, but can you give more details on what actual measures you are taking in terms of inventories, given the relatively short time frame and how feasible you see that you will be able to reach that target by the end of this year?
I will be handing over to Henri as well regarding this for further remarks. From my part, looking at the working capital and releasing the driving down the inventory levels is part of this plan that we are doing and we are not going to compromise our service capability either. I think that this is something that we have to do in a diligent collaboration with the customers as well. Still, based on the analysis that we have done and based on the project so far, we are confident that we can release this EUR 150 million and most of that comes from the inventories. Is there something that Henri, you can.
No, I mean that's exactly correct. As we indicated in the near term outlook, we will also take a profitability hit by taking material production curtailments. That is, of course, serving the purpose of reducing the inventory levels. We need to adjust not only paperboard but also our pulp inventories to the current market situation, which is still very soft on the pulp side. We are looking at all these elements, and yes, it is ambitious, but it is reachable.
All right, thank you. On the CapEx, I understand if you aren't able to provide any specifics, but the EUR 60 million CapEx in Sempelle, given that the investment is expected to be completed in the second half, how much of that initial CapEx should we expect by the end of this year? Given that you said that it will be distributed between 2024 and 2026.
Can you, Henri?
Yeah, so the simple CapEx will be this year roughly EUR 40 million. Some CapEx already realized last year, so say about EUR 10 million, and then the remaining will happen next year. Most of the investments of 2/3 will occur this year.
All right, thank you very much.
As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please dial on your telephone keypad. There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers.
Okay, we do have a couple questions here in the chat function. Let's start with the capacity closures. You guys already answered to that, that this program does not include any. If not, how do you view the current supply demand balance in folding boxboard in Europe and do you see need for capacity closures going forward?
I cannot actually answer on behalf of other companies of course, but I was mentioning that our capacity is well invested, they're up to date, they're modern. We will be actually of course trying to push the most out of the value that we have in this value chain. I think that we can still, there is in all let's say industries, there is overcapacity and we shouldn't be kind of going to that kind of a discussion all the time that we have overcapacity. We have to just push forward and leverage the market because there are other materials in packaging side that we can take the market away from.
Fair enough. The question related to quarter-on-quarter bridge is probably for Henri. If we look at third quarter against the second, how much is the maintenance headwind and how much is FX benefit?
Yeah, so normal maintenance mainly related to Husum integrated annual maintenance break is EUR 10 million on top of the Q2. Of course, we have to remember that also in Q2 we had the Kemi reparations of also around EUR 10 million, so that is netting each other out. The second question was FX benefit; at the moment we estimate that to be in the region of EUR 10 million also.
Okay, we have not given this in our guidance, but the question goes that what are you seeing on your pricing trends? This is again third quarter against second quarter.
I think that roughly 40% of our contracts in February are annual contracts. We will be seeing that price trend pretty soon when we are concluding contracts with the customers for the next year. That will be setting the price trend for FBB. It's not yet there. We don't see it. We will be working with each of the customers separately and pushing our value proposition forward. Currently, the prices in Q2 were actually an increase in local currencies, but then the mix effect and also this fluctuation of currency conveyed that tailwind that we had through those.
Okay, good. There was the question about the U.S. tariffs. I think that we already went through those. How much one-off costs do you expect to book from the EUR 200 million profit improvement program?
That's also a good question. I would say one-offs, we'll be analyzing also, of course, those and depending on, for instance, on those, let's say, investment projects that we have in the pre-engineering phase, including the ERP. There might be some, but nothing substantial. Let's say, looking at our balance sheet.
What's the EBIT impact from the symbol stop in third quarter versus second quarter?
Yeah, we are not separating that impact separately. My previous answer covers also the simple maintenance shutdown.
Okay. Still sticking into third quarter, could you please provide some clarity on the pulp quarter-on-quarter effects?
The effects as such, direct effects. We see that the market pulp market is still deteriorating and it has an impact on the price levels. That will have an impact of course on our profitability, partly through our own, let's say, market pulp, but also through Metsä Fibre. We have this impact, but the magnitude of that. Henry, do you want to.
Nothing to add to that?
Nothing to add. Okay, fair enough.
Okay, good. I think that we are done with the chat questions. I think that there's still one question online, is that correct? We can take that in here.
The next question comes from Robin Santavirta from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yes, thanks for taking an additional or two additional questions. One I had related to pulpwood costs. Some of your peers are speaking about some relief finally on that side, particularly in Sweden, but perhaps also a bit in Finland. What are you seeing in terms of spot pricing? I know there's a lag in the P&L impact, but what are you seeing in terms of pulpwood cost in H2 this year?
Okay, pulpwood this year we actually or the Metsä Board disclosed some information on this one and stated that the pulpwood and the wood cost generally speaking has been reducing somewhat and we can see it also from the statistics. It is decreasing. The magnitude and predict the future, very hard to say that it depends on the supply and demand and how much curtailments there will be in the pulp mills and sawmills that will be depending the future outlook.
Thank you. The second question, I might have missed this if you already answered, but for Henri, any kind of rough sort of indications about CapEx in 2026, 2027, is this roughly at the same level as this year, more or less.
Robin, I have to be a bit vague here at this point because we have this review of the pre-engineering projects, the Q3, so we'll probably be able to give later this year guidance going forward. Obviously, you remember that our maintenance CapEx is between EUR 50 million - EUR 60 million and we only have some EUR 10 million left from simple A investment. That kind of the base load from those is fairly low. Of course, we'll get back to the more sort of detailed guidance later on this year.
Perfect, thank you.
Okay, it seems that there are no further questions on the line. None in the chat function either. With that, we'll conclude the Q & A session and our half year presentation. Please feel free to reach out with any further questions. We're happy to continue the conversations at Investor Relations. Thank you all for joining us today and for your very active participation. We wish you a good continuation of the week and an enjoyable rest of the summer.