All right. Let's get started. Thank you all for joining today on such short notice. My name is Barry French. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer of Nokia. I'm at the Nokia Experience Center in Espoo, Finland, and I would like to start by noting that during this media conference, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding the future business and financial performance of Nokia and its industry. These statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results we currently expect. We have identified such risks in more detail in our latest annual report on Form 20-F, our Q4 financial report, as well as other filings with the SEC.
With that, I am joined today by Risto Siilasmaa, Nokia Board Chair, Sari Baldauf, Nokia Board Chair Nominee, Rajeev Suri, President and CEO of Nokia, and Pekka Lundmark, the President and CEO of Fortum. We are here to discuss the news that Nokia announced earlier today that Pekka will succeed Rajeev as the President and Chief Executive Officer of Nokia later this year. All four of the people that I just mentioned will make brief remarks, and then we'll have a Q&A session. For that Q&A session, we will take questions both from the room here in Espoo and from people on the webcast. We'll prioritize questions from the press as they are the focus of this event. After the Q&A session, we will have a brief photo opportunity. Before we get started, I just want to make one additional comment.
For those with cameras, and particularly TV cameras, please make sure you get what you need during the formal event today, as we will not be providing availability later for one-on-one interviews. The reason for that is simply we do not have anything to add beyond the press release and the comments that we will make today. I'm sure we will have more to share in time, but today we are focused only on what we announced earlier. With that, let me first turn to Nokia Board Chair, Risto Siilasmaa. Risto.
Thank you, Barry. Thanks to all of you for joining us today. Before I talk about the details of today's announcement, I'd like to take first a step back. As I was thinking about what we are announcing and the four of us here, I was struck by the profound impact that Nokia tends to have on people and has definitely had on all of us. All four of us have spent significant time with Nokia. Rajeev for the last 25 years, of which more than the last 10 years as CEO. I for 12 years on the board and the last eight as Chairman. Sari for 22 years, ending in 2005, and Pekka for 10 years early in his career. We have all left our mark on Nokia, but Nokia has left an even larger mark on us.
We four stand here united by a deep feeling of caring for this unique company, its values and culture, its many people across the world, and of course, its future. This shared foundation has made it easy for us to work on succession in a flexible and pragmatic way. I will focus my remarks on the succession planning process we have followed, which led us to today's announcement. Sari will then talk about our selection of Pekka, and then both Pekka and Rajeev will have a chance to make some personal remarks. As you can imagine, succession planning has always been a top priority for our board, one of our core processes. We have worked closely with Rajeev to develop internal candidates.
Many of the changes we have made at the GLT level and below have been motivated by the need to ensure some of our future CEO candidates get challenged more broadly in the different business areas of the company. We have also consistently monitored external leaders who could be a compelling fit for Nokia. Pekka has been one of those leaders on this list for the last several years. Rajeev indicated some time ago that he was considering stepping down from his role at some point in the future, provided a solid succession plan was in place. As a board, we understood that position, taking into account the length of Rajeev's tenure. We ran a structured, meticulous process assessing both internal and external candidates and ensuring deep engagement from the entire Board of Directors, and of course, Rajeev.
We looked at a range of candidates across the globe and gave serious consideration to some of Nokia's excellent internal leaders. For those internal candidates, we decided that now was not the time. However, we do have some truly exceptional talent in the company. The outcome of this process was the decision made earlier today by Nokia's board of directors to move forward with the appointment of Pekka Lundmark. Sari will talk more about Pekka, so I will limit my remarks to saying that I'm very happy we can make this announcement today. I have known Pekka for a long time, and I believe that he's a terrific choice. He has my complete confidence. I'm also confident that we will have a smooth transition process.
Our plan is that Rajeev will step down as President and CEO on August 31st, and Pekka will assume those duties on September 1st, 2020. This timing is consistent with our current understanding of Pekka's availability. Both Rajeev and Pekka will work closely together, particularly related to our customers, where they are planning to do a joint outreach in order to enable a seamless handover. The fact that Rajeev has also agreed to serve as an advisor to the board until January 1st, 2021, will further ensure that we make this leadership change without disruption. After he starts, Pekka will, as is normal for a new CEO, have the opportunity to review the company strategy and make proposals to the board to adjust it as he sees fit. You may have seen recent speculation in the media that we are assessing strategic options for the company.
We do not have any such actions underway. In short, we have worked closely together with Sari over the last year for a smooth handover from me to Sari in April, and we'll have a smooth CEO transition later in the year. Before I hand over to Sari, let me say a few words about Rajeev. Rajeev and I have worked closely together for many years now. We have seen our share of changes, of ups and downs for the company. After all of that, I can say two things without any doubt in my mind. First, Rajeev has been instrumental in making Nokia one of today's top players in the telecommunications infrastructure sector, a company with both the scale and scope to be a long-term winner.
That was anything but a foregone conclusion when he took over as CEO in 2009, but it is the reality today, and it gives Pekka a platform on which to build. Very few companies can go through the kind of radical change that Nokia has been through and emerge as an industry leader. That is what Nokia has been able to do, and it is a testament to Rajeev as a person and as a leader. Second, Rajeev has served the company with honor and distinction. On behalf of the entire board of directors, I want to thank him and be clear that he leaves Nokia with our deep respect, appreciation, and gratitude. Rajeev, thank you. With that, let me hand over to Sari.
Thank you, Risto. I would like to start by adding my thanks to Rajeev, even though he's not leaving the company quite as yet. Rajeev, we've known each other for a long time, and I have a deep respect for you as a professional and as a human being. I look forward to continuing working with you in the coming months as we focus on implementing our strategy and our plans and ensuring a smooth transition. You have driven some unprecedented changes by leading consolidation in the industry and positioning Nokia for long-term success. You, together with your team, created a company with the scale to be a leader in 5G. You had the vision and courage to embark on a path to diversify into enterprise and software spaces, two areas that have significant growth potential for Nokia.
You had the long-term insight to see that a broader scope and robust portfolio could help smooth out the sharp cycles of the mobile radio business, a benefit that I think will be increasingly clear in years to come. Achievements to be proud of, Rajeev. Hats off. Let me turn to Pekka. Our industry is truly global. It's complex and fast-moving. The search criteria centered around analytical and strategic skills, a track record of solid execution in the role of CEO of listed companies, leadership capabilities in terms of leveraging diversity to build high-performing teams with clear, shared direction, industry knowledge, and capacity to create trust among customers, our own people, investors, and other stakeholders. Values are the foundational pillars of Nokia and thus were critical criteria in the search as well. Pekka fits our requirements extremely well, exceptionally well, I would say.
He brings what we believe matters in Nokia: a passion for technology and performance, an open and curious mind, determination, all combined with humility, respect for others' responsibility, and high integrity. He brings strong business-to-business background as well as understanding of how digitization and connectivity can be utilized to improve productivity. He has experience in dealing with the regulatory and political aspects of running a company, as those are very much prevalent in the energy sector. He brings a passion for innovation and technology, and he has experience in the key markets of North America and China. Pekka lived in California while working previously for Nokia Networks and led Konecranes, where the United States and China were the two largest markets for most of his tenure. He brings a record of delivering for shareholders, of ensuring strategic clarity, operational excellence, excellent team leadership, and strong financial performance.
He was the unanimous election of the Nokia Board of Directors. I am pleased that he made the choice to join us. With that, let's hear from him. Pekka, the floor is yours.
Thank you very much, Sari, and thanks to both you and Risto for the kind words. I know what Risto means when he talks about something that creates unique bonds to Nokia, because I feel that as well. I also recognize that the Nokia I left is not the Nokia of today, and it will certainly not be the Nokia of tomorrow. Before I left Nokia in 2000, I was deep into the world of networks. I spent time as the account manager for the world's first GSM network, which was built not far from here in Finland in 1991. Later, I moved to California in part to assess how Nokia could take the technology built for telecom operators and use it also for enterprises. I have some understanding of where Nokia has come from.
As someone who has worked to drive industrial digitalization, particularly in my role as the CEO of Konecranes, I have a good view of where it is going. I know telecom operators, and I know enterprises in several industry verticals, and both will be essential to really tapping the full potential of 5G. Telecom operators, Nokia's largest customers today, are facing all kinds of challenges, from margin pressure to technology shifts to competitive threats and more. I want to be sure Nokia remains with them every step of the way. Our mutual relationships run long and deep, and I want to work with everyone in Nokia to ensure that this continues. As the current CEO of an energy company and former CEO of a material handling company, I have seen firsthand the power of industrial digitalization.
While I want to reserve any judgment on Nokia's strategy for the appropriate time, I have no doubt that there is opportunity for us and for our operator customers as enterprises go digital. Turning to my regional experience. As a Finn, of course, I know Europe well. In the recent years, I have expanded that into new European markets, and on top of that, I earlier lived and worked for many years in the United States, including for Nokia, as I just mentioned. Most recently actually helped Fortum launch a new venture capital entity based in California in order to target new energy technology opportunities. As CEO of Konecranes, I also moved my own office to Asia for a couple of years, as that's where most of the growth potential was.
Additionally, I have extensive experience in China, and as Sari noted, it was the largest single market for Konecranes after the U.S. during my tenure as CEO. I have a deep appreciation for the transformation of China into a global technology powerhouse. I hope this helps you understand why I believe the Nokia board sees me as a good fit for Nokia. Now let me flip this around a bit and talk for a moment about why I thought Nokia was right for me. Three simple reasons: values, innovation, and opportunity. As both Sari and Risto have suggested, Nokia puts its values at its core. Respect, humility, a drive for results, a desire to win. Win in the right way with high ethical standards, a passion to create new technology. Innovation is also core to Nokia.
Even from afar, I have watched new 5G deals being won and new live 5G networks being launched, despite the company's acknowledgment of near-term product challenges. I have watched in recent months as the company has launched new products in routing, software, optical, and others that are based on some unique and powerful innovation. Finally, opportunity. The world is going digital. Our telecom operator partners need us to be with them and be strong. Every business everywhere needs to become more and more connected. With its mission to create the technology to connect the world, Nokia is a great place to be. I know I have a lot to do. A lot of people to meet, employees, customers, shareholders, and more, and a lot to learn in the coming months. I look forward to getting started. Rajeev, let me thank you for all your support.
I'm greatly looking forward to working closely with you as we transition. The floor is yours.
Thank you. Thank you, Pekka, for those comments, and thank you, Risto and Sari, for your very kind words. It has been an honor to serve Nokia these many years. It is a lot to take in today, and I leave Nokia knowing that I am ready to do something new after more than a decade in a CEO role and two and a half decades with the company. It is the right time for me to step aside. Nokia will always be a part of me and hold a place of fondness in my heart. There is a time for change for everyone, and that time for me is in the months ahead.
I'm proud that during my time as CEO, Nokia has become the world's number two player in telecommunications infrastructure, growing from a number four position. That we have successfully extended our portfolio into software and enterprise. That we have 68 5G wins and launched 19 5G networks and over 130 private wireless networks. That we significantly grew our highly profitable patent licensing activities into a robust, sustainable business. These are changes that position Nokia well for the future. Sure, we've had our share of ups and downs, but Nokia has been around for more than 150 years, and I leave knowing that there is the potential for 150 more. Ultimately, I'm most proud that when it comes to our mission to create the technology to connect the world, we have delivered.
The world is a better, a more connected, and a more sustainable place based on the work that we have done and the technologies that we have delivered. I have committed to be available as President and CEO until August 31st, 2020, and then continue as an advisor to the board until January 1st, 2021, to enable a seamless transition. That, of course, means that my work is not yet done, and I will continue to focus on delivering improved business performance to put us in a stronger position at the start of 2021. No slowing down. Pekka, I'm looking forward to working with you in the months to come. With that, Barry, back to you.
Terrific. Okay. Thank you, Rajeev. We will now turn to the Q&A session. We'll be taking some questions from the audience and some from the webcast. For those in the audience, please raise your hand and a microphone will be brought to you. I already see hands going up. Please state your name and the outlet that you represent before asking your question. For those joining via the webcast, please note you must include your name and outlet for your question to be considered. It would also be helpful if you want to target your question to a specific individual that you make that clear. We will be taking questions in English, Finnish, and Swedish today. I hope you can appreciate that not all of our speakers speak all those languages.
If you do ask in Finnish or Swedish, I would ask you to also repeat the question in English so that our entire panel understands what's being asked. If that's not possible, I will ask one of our team members to translate. As I mentioned from the start, we will focus on questions from journalists. Let me dive straight in. Do we have a question from the floor? Go right in front here.
Anni Lassila from newspaper Helsingin Sanomat. I have a question for Pekka Lundmark. One could say that you're leaving Fortum at a challenging time now. They have lots of challenges with their Uniper affairs in Germany. How do you see that? Do you think that you're getting an easier position in Nokia? I have one question for Sari Baldauf. It seems like Nokia is becoming a more Finnish company now, or gradually. I think that's something that it shouldn't be said, but that's what it looks like. Is that true, or are there some sort of cultural considerations behind that notion?
Pekka, you first, please.
Okay. Yes. Well, first of all, I'm not looking for an easier position. That's definitely not the case. The timing for this type of a change is never optimal. We have been through a long and successful journey at Fortum. Now, the Uniper deal is actually entering new phase where Fortum is becoming clearly a majority owner, and that means that a new era is starting in the development of that company. From that point of view, this is a natural time to do transition. As I said, it's never optimal.
To your question about whether Nokia is becoming more Finnish company, no. Nokia is truly global company. This search was a global search, and it included global internal and external people. Based on that search, we believe that we chose the best possible person for the job at this point in time. For Nokia, definitely markets like the U.S. and China are extremely important. We have a lot of people there. Basically, if I count correctly, I think six out of the GLT, the leadership team members are in the U.S. Two of the business groups are led from there. Don't read into that. This is not about nationality. This is about competence.
Great. Let's go, I think, Reuters here. Yes.
Anne Kauranen for Reuters News. She just said here that Lundmark is leaving Fortum at a critical time. We could also say that it's a critical time for Nokia after profit warning, after losing some of your share price. How serious would you say that these problems are now? You said that you're not considering strategic options. What are the first issues that you need to address?
Risto, do you want to comment briefly on that? Rajeev, do you want to take it in terms of the issues we have to address?
Who did you want answering your question?
I'm not actually sure. Whichever one of you is the best person to answer.
Well, we are very convinced that our broad product portfolio is a good choice. We also believe that our expansion into software and enterprise are the right way to go, and therefore, we are not currently working on any strategic reassessment. Of course, we expect the new CEO to do his review of our strategy, and he may propose changes to that strategy to the board in due course. Maybe, Rajeev, you want to say a few words about our current business.
Well, as we said when we closed Q4, we expect that based on the guidance that we gave at the time, that all things being equal, if we execute well, this will be a better year than last year. We've given long-term guidance also of 12%-14% operating margin. I do think that our broad portfolio has enabled us to go to new places. We would not have been in the software business opportunity where we expanded margins quite significantly in the last year compared to 2018, and also in the enterprise opportunity. For me, 5G is certainly about consumer and massive consumer broadband, the reality is it's also about enterprises, as Pekka, you also talked about in industrial digitization. The portfolio helps us do that.
I want to also repeat what I've been saying a lot, that 5G is a complete change in network architecture. There's a virtuous cycle of 5G that requires updating of multiple domains. That goes from radio, which is what we're experiencing now, but also transport, i.e. IP routing and optical, and then core networks, and then software platforms that tie into all of these, and then fixed wireless access, as well as enterprise 5G. I think the strategy is a sound one, but of course, Pekka will have a look.
If I continue from my point of view, it's clear it would be premature to comment. I recognize the good work that has been done, as well as the challenges that the company has also quite openly acknowledged. I will now have an opportunity to review the strategy. I'm not coming in with any foregone conclusions regarding that one.
I will take one from the webcast, and then we'll go, I think here in the back row. Richard Milne from the Financial Times to Risto. Sorry, Risto, why don't you go first? How concerned is the board by Nokia's recent performance, including the profit warning? Are changes in strategy needed?
Well, it's not all doom and gloom. We had a strong Q4. While we have challenges in mobile access, we also have businesses that are performing very well. The challenges in mobile access, especially as they're related to silicon, are being gradually fixed throughout this year, and we believe that we will enter next year from a much stronger position.
Okay. Let's go back into the room here.
Antonia Berg, MTV Uutiset. I need some answers in Finnish, please, for our news. Pekka Lundmark and everyone else who wants to answer. You said that you can't comment so much, but I would like to hear what you think are the biggest challenges and how you would get Nokia to become even bigger, please. In Finnish.
Yes. Thank you. I will answer in Finnish. Nokia [Non-English content]
Okay. Let's go another in the back row here, and then we'll come to the front two over here.
Okay. My name is Magnus Hertzberg from YLE Broadcasting Company. I ask in Swedish. I can start in English. My question goes to Pekka Lundmark. There are some similarities between Fortum and Nokia. You have a lot to do with politicians and decision-makers in politics. How do you look to that challenge?
[Non-English content]
Okay. Let me take one or two from the webcast, and then we'll come back to the room. Risto, for you, Alex Webb from Bloomberg Opinion. Can you please talk through the timing of this move and why is now the right time for a change?
Well, the CEO succession process that we have run over the last several years has been done in very close cooperation with Rajeev, who very understandably so let us know that he wants to step down at some point in time. Of course, Nokia asks a lot of its people. In this case, we asked Rajeev to be very flexible as regards to the timing, and he supported the board in allowing us to pick the right time when we have the right candidate. That right time was today. This morning, we have decided to appoint Pekka Lundmark as the next CEO.
Terrific. Risto, thank you. Let's go first in the very end, and then we'll just hand the microphone over.
Janne Toivonen, Finnish national broadcasting company, Yle. I would like to ask Mr. Siilasmaa and Ms. Baldauf, you're having a double teaming quite a big part of this year still. We are living in middle of a boiling 5G race. Is it possible to sharpen the actions, when it comes to in this 5G race during this time of this double teaming? Are we waiting for a fresh start later this year? Thank you.
Well, we definitely don't have time to stop. We need to run as fast as we can, and we have done that. With Sari, over the last year, we have been walking hand in hand from meeting to meeting, and I personally have felt that four eyes see more than two, and two brains get more ideas than just one. It has been useful. It has not slowed us down. It has actually speeded us up. I know that Rajeev and the GLT, they do everything possible, fighting for new opportunities, fighting for our customers, and absolutely, we will not slow down.
I basically have nothing to add. Just concur that's how it has been, and like also, I think Rajeev was pointing out in his remarks that there's not going to be any slowing down.
I'll take one from the webcast, and then I'll go here, and then I'll go over here. Rajeev, from HSS Media, do you feel that your job ended at the right time, or is Nokia in the position you hoped for?
Well, I started in Nokia Siemens Networks as a CEO on 1st October 2009. At that point, we had EUR 28 million non-IFRS operating profit for the full year, and we were number four. Though I have to say I'm not entirely satisfied with last year, but we still had EUR 2 billion compared to that EUR 28 million. I finished 25 years with the company. I joined when I was 27, and I've given a lot of my life to this company, and richly so, and the company's given me a lot as well. This is my 11th year as CEO of the networks business. Is there an optimal time? There never is. Isn't this an optimal time after finishing a quarter century with the company and more than 10 years as CEO?
I think that I fully agree with what Risto and Sari have said. This is going to be an orderly transition. We have planned it as an orderly transition. I'm very loyal to the company. We should expect no slowing down, not from me and not from my team. In fact, Pekka and I will talk frequently, do a joint customer outreach. There's no question of switching off from me or slowing down. That would be the last thing on my mind.
Okay. Let's go over here.
Tuomas Savonen from Finnish news agency, STT. I have two brief questions to Mr. Suri and Siilasmaa. First of all, how would you describe the role of the alleged problems with the 5G technology in these two leadership changes you are now having in Nokia? Secondly, Bloomberg last week speculated on the fusion between Nokia and Ericsson. How would you comment on that?
Well, starting with the rumors, we don't comment on rumors, but I already said that we are not evaluating such strategic options at the moment. The new CEO, after coming in, will do his normal review on our strategy and may then propose changes to the board. At the moment, we have no such actions underway.
Risto, the question, the role of 5G and the challenges we had there in term and impact on the transition we're making now.
I was trying to ignore that question. Both processes, both the chairman succession process as well as the CEO succession process, have been underway for quite some time. They have not been related to any recent events.
Okay. Let's go over here.
Markus Ekholm, Finnish broadcasting company, Svenska Yle. I have three questions. The first to Risto. Why are you switching CEO at this moment? The second to Sari, why Pekka? The third to Pekka, what are the changes that you would like to drive in Nokia? Please, in Swedish.
First, why are we changing CEOs? Rajeev has really given his life to Nokia.
In Swedish, please.
I think I will answer in English.
Okay.
Rajeev has given his life to Nokia over 25 years, and when he tells us that he still wants to do something else, he's still a young man, we have to respect that, and we have to support him. As he has supported and given so much to the company. As I said earlier, we also ask a lot from our people, so we asked him to stay in the company until we have the right successor. Then we have run a robust process to look for both internal and external candidates. Today we have appointed Pekka.
Sorry.
Sorry. Why Pekka?
[Non-Englisg content]
Okay.
It will be in English. Pekka will cover for both Risto and I for Svenska.
He can add many words very quickly.
Yeah. Well, as I indicated earlier, this was a global search. I tried to also explain the criteria that we had for this search. Basically, we were looking for someone who has a strong analytical head and strategic skills, who has CEO experience, track record of being successful as CEO, has industry knowledge, has the capability to create trust, has been delivering shareholder value. Among the candidates that we gone through, Pekka is the best and fits these criteria. In addition, like we also tried to emphasize, we put a lot of importance on values. Pekka is a perfect fit with Nokia values. That's why Pekka.
Pekka.
[Non-English content]
Thank you. Let me look in the room. Any additional hands in the room?
There's that one in that corner.
I see.
Yeah.
Wait. Yes. Then we'll go from there to there.
Hi. Kati Pohjanpalo from Bloomberg News. Thank you for taking my question. You talk a lot about the 5G race being fast-paced and you having no time to slow down. What I wanted to ask is, are you confident in your direction? Because it sounds like shareholders will have to wait for six months to find out whether you're running for the right goal, as it were. Thank you.
Rajeev, do you want to take that one in terms of 5G status?
Yeah, I think we talked about some of the near-term product challenges. We also gave some operational key performance indicators with the Q4 results when we said that we expect the percentage of system on chip as part of our 5G product portfolio to be at about more than 35% by the end of this year, and more around 70% by the end of next year, and then about close to 100%. That shows the progress we can potentially make on that particular goal, which helps reduce product costs and therefore gross margin. On top of that, we also gave other indicators. As you might have noticed, market share excluding China on 5G, we said 4G and 5G at 27%. We're also talking about number of deals and so on.
This year, we're going to see another maybe 60- 80 operators move into rolling out 5G in a meaningful way, and next year there would be probably another 40- 60 being added. Next year will be the big phase of massive commercialization of 5G, and this year will be moving from lead countries to deploy 5G to a lot of countries to do 5G. Obviously, no time to slow down. We have 68 deals. More will come as we make progress and more networks are being launched as we speak.
I think you should remember that the 5G cycle is at least 10 years long. It's not about what happens this month. We will run as fast as we can, but we need to think about winning throughout this whole technology cycle.
Exactly. It's 10 years, by which time it could potentially peak, but then overall, it's even longer.
Yeah.
Could be 15+ years.
We'll take one more question from the room.
Yes. Kagos Kalinda from University of Helsinki. I saw my chance as a researcher and now a journalist. I'm Finnish. After the next 10 years, what happens after 5G? What will 6G be about? Is it brain-attached devices, or where do we go?
Very early days to describe what 6G might be about. Obviously, we are doing research on it in Nokia Bell Labs, as we typically do these things 10 years before things get commercialized. I would say that it's going to be a lot more about very high bandwidth, ultra-high bandwidth type, millimeter wave and beyond millimeter wave type spectrum. It'll be about sensing and indoor sensing and things like that. Early days, and we have so much to do in 5G that I wouldn't even start hyping up 6G yet.
Yes.
Okay.
Please don't.
No.
Okay. We'll do one more quick one here, for sake of time, we will have to start to wrap up.
Thank you. Anne Kauranen for Reuters again. Just a quick clarification for what Rajeev just said about the numbers, about the operators. Were those Nokia contracts that.
No, no.
Oh.
Sorry.
Just market.
Finish your question. Yeah.
Yes. You mentioned 60- 80 operators this year and 40- 50 next year.
Yeah.
Those are for all.
Yeah. Out of the approximately 800 operators that exist in the world. Last year was about lead countries. South Korea, United States, Saudi Arabia, Japan. Now it's moving into mainstream deployment. These are not Nokia numbers. These are number of operators out of the universe of approximately 800 that will start deploying 5G.
If more clarification is needed, we can take it up after this. Okay. Well, listen, thank you all very much. We will now end the session for those on the webcast. For those in the audience, we will have a brief photo opportunity. Just give us one second and we're going to remove some of these stools. Thank you.