All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Valmet's Pulp and Energy Investor Day. My name is Pekka Rouhiainen, I'm the Head of Investor Relations here at Valmet. Today's agenda is so that we will have presentations by the Business Area Head, Bertel Karlstedt, as well as presentations from Energy, as well as the Pulp business here at Valmet. There will also be a demo about the Valmet Industrial Internet offering. The presentation slides are already available at Valmet website if you wish to download them already now. After the presentations, we will have Q&A sessions. Please participate by asking questions. You can submit the questions throughout the event using the question form. There will be three Q&A sessions after the energy presentation, the pulp presentation, as well one at the end for Bertel Karlstedt. Without further ado, Bertel, stage is yours.
Thank you, Pekka. Greetings and a warm welcome on my behalf as well to the Pulp and Energy Investor Day today. I will open the Investor Day briefly with a glance at the Pulp and Energy business of Valmet. It is, of course, evident that we are the business line responsible for all the activity related to Pulp and Energy-related customers and offerings. In both cases, we are a globally leading actor. In pulping we are one of the few that has a complete delivery capability to our customers' needs. In the area of energy and energy production, I would say that the main strength is, of course, long history and the capabilities in multi-fuel energy production, as well as applications for waste and biomass-based energy production. These are the two strong strategical streams we have in the business line.
On top of that, we have identified and leveraged with good success two growth platforms. One we call environmental solutions and systems. Applications aimed at emissions control, whether we are talking about odor control, particle control, or abatement of other emissions to air or water, including also the maritime sector and the IMO-driven business we have seen grow fast during the past two years. On top of that, we also have a growth platform aimed at different type of biomass conversion applications, and right now, as we speak, I would say that the hottest topic on that front is the second-generation bioethanol, where we have the prehydrolysis concept portion of that entire plant that the customers are building. We have a global presence.
Our own personnel, the 1,500 people we have, is by historical reasons strongly focused on the Nordic countries in Finland, Sweden, and Denmark. We also as a business line have a strong engineering hub in Chennai, India, and we have a good set of resources in China as well, looking at anything from engineering sales as well as supply chain management and project execution. That is our own organization. Besides that, we have 12,000 more Valmeters around the world in the area organizations supporting us in being close to the customer and being able to serve him in an effective way at all times. We have our own technology, the process technology capability and strength. We combine that with service and automation environment. That makes us unique in being able to serve the customer's need throughout the life cycle of the investments and the processes that we have.
When we tie the three of them together through Industrial Internet, we are really unique in the offering and the capabilities we can offer. Looking at some numbers, orders received, two really good years behind us, a good last 12 months as well. We are order magnitude of EUR 1 billion business line for the time being, whether we are looking at orders received or actual net sales. When we look at from where this business had come lately, again, the last 12 months, I would say a very traditional split between the Energy and the Pulp, meaning roughly 40% from Energy, 60% from Pulp.
If you look at the geographical split of the business activity lately, I would say somewhat out of the ordinary in the sense that EMEA has traditionally been for us roughly half of the orders or slightly below, 40%-50%, as you can see here now, below that, 37%. North America, still for us, a very modest market. Again, only 4%, the remaining 40%-50% is traditionally split between China, Asia Pacific, and South America, depending upon where the big investment projects are ongoing at any given time. If you look at the last 12 months, as you can see, Latin America, South America has had a really big role in our net sales during the last 12 months, and that is, of course, driven by the big projects.
I would say unusually big portion, actually, of the overall net sales from that area during the last 12 months. That is our capability, our presence, and our numbers, and of course, with that capability, we are committed to serve our customers and to push their performance forward. I think when you look at the slide here, when we look at the pulping far to the left, we have the capabilities in chemical, mechanical pulping, dissolving pulp, as well as in fiberline plants. You find well-known and familiar logos and company names anywhere in Europe, Asia, Latin America, Far East. We have a worldwide leading customer clientele. The same holds true for energy, where the customers are municipalities, utilities, independent power producers, pulp mills, as well as the process industry. Also here you find very familiar company names and logos.
The growth platforms, bio and environmental technologies. Marine, I mentioned a little earlier, also ethanol industry, chemical industry, pellet producers, pulp and paper industry, and utilities. Here you find very familiar pulp and paper industry names, familiar energy producing company names, as well as chemical industry and the seafaring logistics, maritime logistics key players. We are a globally leading supplier for a strong global clientele, and we really take our customers' performance forward. With that short glance into who we are and what our role is in Valmet, I would leave the floor over to Kai Janhunen, who is the Vice President in charge of the Energy Business Unit in my organization. Please, Kai, the floor is yours.
Thank you, Bertel, hello to everybody also from my behalf. About the Energy Business in Valmet, I will tell you shortly about what we are, what we are delivering, global market drivers, about our order backlog, key references, also kind of illustrating the actual orders that we have received in respect of our markets and their behavior and their development. Good. Bertel already mentioned, shortly, around EUR 400 million business, 40% of the Pulp and Energy is the energy, we are 620 people working in the organization. That is the direct organization. If I take all the Valmetians working in the area of the Energy, I could say around 1,000 people working daily in the area organization, and in also the P&E global functions. Main locations in Finland, offices here in Tampere, on Tarastenjärvi.
We have two production facilities, one here in Tampere, and another one then in Lapua. In addition to this, we have an R&D center in Tampere where we can test all kinds of new fuels, new technologies, emission control equipment, and so forth. Valmet and also our Energy, we are the kind of high-end supplier to our customers, so it means that we are also high-end supplier in respect of technologies. Then we have the Performance Center, which is supporting then our Industrial Internet initiatives. Our solution offering, as Bertel mentioned, that we have a tradition in the biomass and waste, we are delivering the energy plants to biomass-to-energy, then industrial residues waste-to-energy plants. Energy, let's say heat and power generation with our boilers and gasifiers to those fuels and those areas.
Another foundation in our energy is then the emission control technologies, air emissions, then recently also about the solid and liquid emissions as well, also the heat recovery from the flue gases. As also Bertel mentioned, to us it's very essential that we are serving the energy segment and the customers. It means that together with our product technologies, we are integrating our automation deliveries, the life cycle services, reliability performance services, spare parts, and so forth. Valmet Industrial Internet, of course, that's the modern platform to glue together all these three elements, technologies, automation, services, and serve the customers in a modern way. Customer segments where we are active are the industrial, pulp and paper are the roots.
There are other industrial captive energy producers and users, power generation, utilities, municipalities, IPPs, waste management, meaning the waste-to-energy customers, and marine also in respect of these marine scrubbers and the air pollution control. Global trends, they are forming the global market for energy, and then, of course, then the legislation and directives in Europe, and decisions, acts, they are kind of confirming then the development towards to the required results and expectations of these global trends. Of course, what are kind of then actual to our energy are the resource efficiency. We talk about, of course, the efficient production. When I said that we have the high-end solutions, it means also that we are turning with the best efficiency the energy content of the fuels to heat and power to our customers.
It's also about the circular economy and then the use of residual waste, after the circulating in the most possible manner to energy. That is kind of the logic what we are following also in our Energy business. The other is this environmental awareness. We all are now talking today about the carbon neutrality, and in EU, we have a European Green Deal, a big package of dictating our energy, our industry emissions, and future on that. Recently also heard about China's plan to be carbon neutral by 2060. This kind of validated through the legislation that is the framework where we are working today and also in the future.
Today, we see a lot about our orders are coming from coal phase-out, going to the renewables, from fossils to renewables, and then also about the tightening emission legislation need for new flue gas cleaning, new emission cleaning installations. A bit busy slide, I apologize. It is to illustrate that we are globally working also in our Energy area. Majority of our order backlog is coming from the European area. It is, as I said, mostly it is about our customers turning from fossils to renewables or building their installations to meet the tightening emission legislations. Europe, as I said, the biggest market. We have a good foundation also in the China and also in Asia Pacific. It is the same that from fossil towards. It's not only about the European, it's also a global trend that go from the fossil towards to the renewable and sustainable energy.
That is the niche where we are working in our Valmet Energy. Some key references in this respect. We have a big order here in Tampere, in Finland, for our local municipal heat and electricity company. It is part of the big, many-year program to turn from the fossil fuels to renewable fuels. The new installation CFB-based boiler plant will then be the main source of district heating for town of Tampere here in Finland. The next one is an example about the industrial customer, Norske Skog Bruck in Austria. It's also part of their program for coal phase-out, reduce carbon footprint and replace the coal with a waste-derived fuels, wastes coming from their own production, spillovers, and then also introducing some external waste streams to make the energy for their captive use at the plant. The third example from Poland, it's an example of rebuild.
We are rebuilding currently an older coal-based power plant to renewable to use the biomass. That will be then the source for district heating in city called Konin in Poland. That will be the first Polish city which is heated then with renewable energy. Of course it's a good example and good about this kind of coal phase turning to the renewables then. The last is about this energy efficiency. It is for this new heat plant to Finland capital Helsinki, Vuosaari Plant. We are then delivering this heat recovery from flue gases. By introducing this heat recovery, we can increase the production of the district heating with 69 MW to the plant. Having this is taking all the energy out of the flue gases to district heat.
Summarizing my presentation that we are high-end supplier, we are focusing to be the reliable technology partner to our customers. Energy market is in a change. We are introducing the opportunities to our customers from fossil-based heat and power generation to sustainable renewable energy production. To us, it's important that in addition, together with our technologies, we are combining the offering with automation and the services to our customers. As the last bullet is saying that we are enabling our customers initiatives for energy turnaround. I guess that is the big picture of the market and our presence at the moment. Thank you.
Thank you, Kai, and we will now move on to the Q&A session. As I indicated already earlier, please post your questions to us and I will then present them to Kai here. We already have a couple of questions here online. First coming from Johan Eliason, who is asking, do you still receive scrubber orders from the marine segment? Have you delivered the backlog now, or is there still projects in the backlog in the marine scrubbers?
There are still projects in the backlog, yes, at the moment. Quite substantially, we have been delivering challenging times due to COVID, but I have to say that successfully delivered to our customers. The deliveries will continue also to the next year from the existing backlog. This year, unfortunately, has been low in the orders for marine scrubbers due to the prevailing conditions in the market at the moment.
Yes, I assume that the low demand in the market will now continue in the short- term.
Yeah. That is the expectation for the short- term, and at least the visibility for the next year is similar that it is a modest market.
Okay. All right. There is a question on the business potential geographically. Where do you see in the Energy business most potential in terms of geography? Which countries do you see more potential at the moment?
In my presentation, maybe already this blue picture was defining that, of course, Europe is the big market, and that is our expectation that it will continue to be like that. In Europe, of course, we could say that we have built all the capacity what we need, but it's about turning the capacity from fossil to renewable. That program is, and that kind of market is active and that is going on. We are also, of course, we are established in Asia Pacific. We are established in China. China, the huge plan from fossil to renewable, so carbon neutrality. Of course, it's more than biomass. It's then in China, we talk about the waste to energy. We have a good footprint already for industrial customers, also to the waste-to-energy customers in China. In Asia Pacific, there is a need to build the primary energy.
The consumption of primary energy is still growing in Asia Pacific market. There is twofold market I see in Asia Pacific then, is that we build the new capacity, and we are also turning the old capacity to renewable. Those three markets are the main markets to work.
All right. Thank you. There is a question from, hold on, from Mr. James Filsell. Please talk through the environmental and economic benefits of customers converting existing power plants to biomass rather than other renewable sources.
Well, what is referred to be the other renewable sources, of course, if I, as an engineer, start to respond that when we have a coal-fired unit, we have a thermal power plant already there, what else we can then combust the coal there, of course, biomass is a good option on that. Other might be the waste. Waste again, has some more challenges on the combustion and on the technology, also there are some kind of features in the legislation you need to take care of when you are designing a waste-based unit. In this kind of a framework, I see that the biomass, of course, it's a very viable solution.
Again, of course, it's about the economics of having the biomass in the proximity or at the delivery, and as we all know, that the big portion of the economy of the power plant is about the fuel and fuel logistics. These are, of course, deciding when it is favorable for biomass, then it is good to do so, and of course, then taxation. We are a business which is also governed by the legislation. It is a legislative business, so of course, then carbon taxes and those, they are pushing the operators from fossil to have the renewable sources.
All right. Thanks. Tom Skogman is asking about raw materials for energy. What are the main competitors for raw materials that you use in boilers? What is the economical and environmental benefit of burning them in your boilers versus other alternatives?
I would say that the one common factor is the residue. We talk also when we talk about the biomass. I'm a Finn, so to me, it's in the genes that we are having a forest industry, and a good forest industry means that you are taking care of the forest, and you are harvesting the forest, and then the trees are growing the best. When you are harvesting, you have the branches, you have the tops, you have the stumps, and you have all the leftover. Also from the industry, you have the residues, also from the pulp and paper industry, you have the bark. You have then all sorts of sludges coming out. Instead of landfilling, then you turn it to the good energy by combustion.
Of course, it's about what you are combusting, so as I said, it is the residues, and then it is a question how you are combusting. It's with a good efficiency, clean technology, good emission control. I guess then we are actually, we talk a lot about the carbon dioxide, but of course, if we are landfilling, then we have the methane, which is actually many times as a kind of greenhouse gas. With a good and efficient way to turn it to energy, it's also sustainable for the environment.
All right. There's a question from Johan Eliason. Previously, your biomass boilers could only burn sorted waste. Is there any change here to open up your technology to a more broad-based waste?
I think it's more modern that we are talking about the sorted waste, because I now take to the discussion the circular economy and the demand to go to the recycling. Instead of having a mass incineration, I think it's today and future, hopefully, that we are sorting the waste first, taking all the valuable out. I think that is going to be the legislation, that you have a demand to recycle, and then the residual, what you are having there is the energy fraction, and then turn it to energy by combusting it with the best possible efficiency. I'm not worried that we cannot do incineration, because to me, it's a bit yesterday. Today should be the recycling circular economy and then the good efficient energy as a part of the circular economy.
Yes. There's a question from Antti Suttelin. What share of your boiler business goes to heat, and how much to electricity production? There's a follow-up. I assume there is more future for biomass in heat production rather than electricity production.
It's very acute at the moment and this time's question. We need to also understand that there are different markets. If I talk about Europe, that is true. If I talk about the Nordics, it's more on spot. If I go to Asia, if I go to China, maybe then it's about that there is a demand for electricity in a different manner than what we have in Europe. In Europe, of course, we have this variable energy, wind, solar. It's already in the picture, and we have accommodated our place in the picture, and that is more and more focusing on the heat. Heat-only plant, so that the heat is the first primary product to our customers, and then also the electricity can be part of that or not.
Sorry, I don't have exactly the number, how much is heat, how much is electricity. Surely the balance has been going and is going more towards to the heat. Europe is especially like that. Let's say, countries where there's still demand for primary energy, electricity, there it is a bit of lesser.
Yes. Sindre Sørbye asking, "What is typically the efficiency for biomass or waste to energy if producing electricity, and compared to heat or combined heat and power?" What is typically the efficiency for biomass or waste to energy if producing electricity?
Well, normally, of course, when we are delivering here in Europe, so we have this, they are combined plants, so then we are there in about 90%, and I don't hardly remember that we have done a condensing plant anymore in Europe. When we go, then we are, let's say, close to 40-something, if it is only about the electricity production. Of course, when we have this heat recovery from flue gas, as I showed in the example, so we can go above 100% efficiencies at the plant.
All right.
It needs a little bit explanation. I won't do it now because my time is limited. It comes how you are calculating from the low heat values.
Sure. Thanks. There is, I think, time for one more question, and I will take it from here from Adolfo Baradit. "Can we have an idea on your market share on biomass conversion, second generation bioethanol or heat recovery, please?
I think the bioethanol is for the next presentation, so I'm not going to take for that, and then the market shares, heat recovery market share. If we talk about recovering the flue gas heat, I don't have any percentage on that. I would say that we are a well-recognized supplier because it is quite a lot of customers are distributing customers in Nordics, where we are, let's say, traditionally established. It's kind of a qualitative answer that we have a good market share enough to answer for the heat recovery at this moment.
Okay, one more here from Antti Suttelin. "I assume EMEA is the biggest part of your sales for energy. Is there enough biomass in EMEA for the phasing out of coal into biomass in heat production?
I think, let's say that instantly what comes to my mind, of course, biomass is still a niche. If you look the whole kind of energy portfolio and the production, the goal is, of course, much greater and larger part. Surely not to replace every coal with biomass. I, of course, see all the graphs are kind of trending that there is an increase in the biomass. Biomass needs to be sustainable. Of course, the sources for sustainable biomass is then a question on that. I cannot give an answer that do we have enough biomass in a sustainable manner to replace all the coal. Let's say for me as a business owner, of course, I see that there is an increasing opportunity for biomass to have a share on this fossil to renewable.
It's good actually that we talk, because earlier the discussion was only about the electricity, but now we talk also about the heat, which has been maybe coming behind on this kind of renewable, turning to renewables. In a manner, I see that it's a very good and active market for us to turn it from fossil to renewable to biomass.
Okay. Thank you, Kai, for the presentation and answering the questions. We will next take Jussi Mäntyniemi, who will be talking about the future growth in pulp, which is driven by favorable mega trends. Jussi, floor is yours.
Thanks, Pekka.
All right. Hello from my behalf. Yes, my name is Jussi Mäntyniemi, and I'm heading the Recovery Business Unit in Bertel's team. Today we talk about the pulp. The outline of my presentation can be seen here. First, what is our offering, about our execution, how to execute the projects, then what are the trends that are driving the pulp market? Is there any possibilities in the future? The end summary, and there's also time for questions- and- answers. Let's roll. On this page, you can see our offering for a pulp mill. It's a full page, but maybe that is reflecting that we have a full offering for a pulp mill. All the main processes, they are included in our offering.
If you look at the top row here, we can see that, okay, the wood is coming in to the mill from the left. It goes to the wood handling. It's debarked, chipped, conveyed, storage. We have that, full coverage for that. Then it goes to the cooking and fiberline, where the fiber is separated from the rest of the wood in a cooking and a fiberline, and it's also bleached and washed. From there on, it continues to the drying machine, and from there to the baling, and then shipped to the end users. Looking at the middle row here, that's a chemical recovery, what I'm representing here. The other part of the wood and the chemicals, they are taken into the evaporation where water is evaporated, then the stuff goes to the recovery boiler.
I'm happy to see that that's in the center of this picture, by the way. There, the heat is recovered, chemicals are recovered. recovery boiler is a kind of combination of the boiler and chemical reactor. Chemicals continue to the white liquor plant and then go back to the cooking, so fully recovered. By the way, it's worth mentioning that a modern pulp mill, it's very much surplus of the energy. In that sense, it's independent. On the bottom line here, bottom row, these are kind of complementing technologies we have to offer. Like for example, from the deparking of the wood, there's plenty of biomass heat we were talking about in the previous presentation. That can be used in a power boiler to produce, again, heat and power for the pulp mill, or to be sold to the external grid.
We have technologies to control the emissions, to manage the ESPs, scrubbers, and we have a means to control the odor. As you may have noticed that the modern pulp mill, there's no typical odor how it used to be in the past. We have means to control that. to continue how to execute a project. First of all, these are quite long projects. It may take two years to develop the project itself. Once the deal is awarded, the pulp mill, it takes two to three years typically. It's quite long projects. When we are executing the project, it's based very much on the processes we have. We have very well-established process to run the project.
That process is based on a kind of gate thinking that we ensure when we go to the next phase of the project, everything has been properly done before we move to the next phase, making sure that everything is in right time and done in the right way. What are the key things when thinking about a successful project execution? I would say that managing the risk is one item. Evaluating the risk, also the opportunities, and then mitigate that, and then make sure that things happen like they should happen. The key thing is also do the right things at the right time and on time. That is, of course, important from the customer point of view, but it's also important internally because that would kind of create issues if something is internally late, that may create issues kind of later phases.
That controlling the schedule is also extremely important. What you're going to see in the next short video, this is example about the recovery boiler we built for Mondi in Central Europe a couple of years back. The construction time itself at the site was 14 months. Now you will see it in the 14 seconds. By the way, please be noted that this is actually a small recovery boiler in today's world. This is also a good example of the modernizing the mill. This new boiler replaced old 40 years boiler that was outdated, maybe had a poor efficiency and high maintenance cost. Plus, of course, with the new boiler, some additional capacity was gained in the mill. Let's look at the video. That's how the boiler went up in 14 seconds.
What are the kind of mega trends, and what is the impact into our business? If we start from the right on this page, urbanization, increase in the standard of living, and the changing how we do the purchasing, I mean buying, most of us these days more and more buy through the internet. It means that increase of tissue and board grades demand is increasing. That, of course, is increasing the need for the fibers. Digitalization and the new technologies, I feel that that enables us to get best out of the assets. To ensure that all the processes run continuous basis at optimum, and we are able to keep optimizing them all the time. The left-hand side, efficient and clean world. I think it's obvious that emission limits, they are not going to be relaxed.
They are going to be tougher and tougher all the time. It means that we need to, and we do continue developing a technology primary and secondary means to control the emissions. Continuing these market drivers, what does this mega trends really mean? If you look at the left-hand side chart, this is about long-term change in demand of the different paper grades. We can see that, like I already mentioned, tissue and the board grades, the demand is growing. The impact of that is shown on the right-hand side graph. The pulp demand is increasing 1%-1.5% annually. This is despite of the fact that the print grades, fine papers, the demand is declining, but the increase in demand in the other grade is resulting in a net demand growth in the pulp.
The other driver that increases our business possibilities is that pulp mill fleet is aging. Here you can see the average technical age of the mills in different continents, if you may. To be able to maintain that baseline of the production, of course, the mills has to be upgraded. It might be so that a small mill is in a wrong location, maintenance cost high, maybe problems with environmental limitations. There might be a decision to close down a mill completely and a new one will be built. That's also the business creating business for us. The other alternative is that mill is gradually upgraded island by island. Again, business for us. How do we see where the capacity is going to be built in the future?
We see that the main market is in South America, and the driver for that is, of course, a competitive wood. Short fiber wood base, predominantly eucalyptus. On the north, in the Nordic countries and Russia, that's the basis for a softwood and a long fiber pulp. We can see that those two locations are the most active. Also, China may become active also, and one reason might be the government banning the import of the recycled paper. There is a shortage of the fiber that needs to be then replaced by the virgin fibers. Going to the future possibilities, I would like to highlight the one on the right, the new value-adding products and platforms for growth. Many customers are looking for what to do with the side streams.
It's not always the best way to burn it and to make heat out of it. Maybe there is a higher value product. These are the examples of the new technologies that are creating new value to our customers. Sulfuric Acid Plant on the top on the left, that's a process where we can make sulfuric acid from the odorous gases inside the mill without bringing anything additional to the mill. Internal production of sulfuric acid instead of trucking in the sulfuric acid. That's a commercial product, by the way. Moving to the Valmet Gasifier. A modern mill can be actually fossil fuel-free mill. The biggest user normally of the fossil fuel is a lime kiln where oil or natural gas is used as a fuel. Since the mill may have an excess of bark, so what to do with the bark?
Let's gasify that and use that gas, biogas, as a fuel for the lime kiln. Again, that's a commercial product. LignoBoost on the left bottom corner, that is a technology that allows us to extract the lignin, the other part of the wood. That can be used to produce bio-based materials or chemicals instead of burning that and producing heat and power. Also commercial product. Sugar extraction. Especially in the dissolving pulp, we are able to extract from the pre-hydrolysis phase the sugars, and those sugars can be used to produce biochemicals. I'm closing my presentation in this slide. This is my favorite slide. On the top of this triangle are these process technologies I described, but I see that having good process technology is not enough.
The service comes to the picture on the left, makes sure that customers are able to utilize their assets continuously, and they get all the time best out of it. The same applies to automation. We have technologies to measure, follow, and optimize the technologies continuous basis. That is a unique offering we can offer to the pulp customers. Thank you. Pekka is coming. He may have some questions.
Yes. Let's move now. Thank you, Jussi. Now we move on to the Q&A session regarding pulp. We have already some questions here. Please don't hesitate to post more of those. Let's get going. First question coming from James Filsell. In the past, there has been large cost overruns and issues with large complete pulp mill projects. What has changed in the project execution model to ensure successful project delivery with the current large pulp mill projects?
I think what I presented is very much reflecting the change in that situation, that we have a strict process we are following, and that also covers the sales phase. It's not only question of execution phase only, but it's also sales phase also. We have substantially improved there.
Sure. There's a question from Sindre Sørbye. What are the pros and cons of CTMP? Do you expect a growing share of CTMP in the future? What will be the implications for Valmet?
That's certainly the business for us, and it's used for a different grade of the end product. There are kind of room for CTMP and chemical pulp.
All right. Tom Skogman is asking, Arauco announced last week that the startup of the MAPA will be delayed. What is the financial impact for Valmet? Do you expect delays in other projects as well?
I don't see that that has an impact. Of course, we are inside the project, and we are following, know exactly what's happening there at the site. We are on top of that based on our delivery.
Good. There is a follow-up from Tom Skogman. Any new planned projects in Latin America? It's been rumored that Euca Energy would launch an investment for 2 million tons of hardwood pulp. When could this happen?
It's difficult to say what happens and when, but we have active cases in South America, like globally, anywhere.
Good. Aurelio Calderon with the question: What would be a normalized level of investment in pulp mills going forward? For example, is it going to be one or two large mega projects per year? All right, this is a little bit the follow-up. Maybe we take the first one first. Normalized level of investment in pulp mills going forward. It's going to be one to two mega projects per year.
Yeah. If we say that this growth of 1%-2%, plus then the replacement mill closures and all that, I would say that, of course, there's a high cyclicality, but to cover that demand, it's one to two new mills, I would say, and the rest comes from kind of incremental capacity increases and upgrading the existing mills. Of course, the trend is that maybe the number of the cases has been less due to the fact that the capacity of the new mills is extremely high. In the past, 20 years ago, half a million was a kind of big one. Now the 2 million tons per year is almost becoming a standard. Of course, the kind of frequency of the mills is becoming less.
Yes. Then there's a follow-up on this one, or a little bit different question from Aurelio. Anyway, what is the risk from recycled pulp for virgin pulp mills? What kind of relationship is there between virgin being a little bit more important to Valmet compared to recycled? What percentage of global pulp consumption is virgin?
That is shown. I don't remember from top of my head the exact numbers, but I see that it might be so that the recycled fiber is not kind of increasing. Of course, the demand could be increasing, availability might be shortened. Of course, the banning. Some countries are banning the import. Plus the kind of good quality of recycled paper is declining because of the printing paper production is declining. I believe that in the long- term, that is going down actually. Availability of recycled fiber is going down to some extent.
Yes. A question from Antti Kansanen and from SEB. Could you provide a bit more color on the potential you see in China for the next few years in terms of number of large projects or added tonnage?
That remains to be seen. What of the cases are going to be realized and when? I see there's potential. That I can see.
All right. There's next question from Antti Suttelin. By the way, there is question also for those who came in late, the presentations can be found from Valmet's investor website. They're already available there, the whole set. Somebody was asking about this. Antti Suttelin is asking, how much of sales derive from the four value-adding processes?
What do you mean by value-added processes? No, I didn't get the question.
All right. This is a bit not completely clear to me either, maybe we skip that one.
Yeah.
Until we get back to you later.
Yep.
A question from Antti Kansanen in SEB. On your risk assessment and pricing when quoting a new pulp project, how do you assess the profitability? Is it a project as a standalone, or do you include aftermarket and future modernization potential in the calculation as well?
The project itself, of course, has to be profitable.
Could you also quantify how much of aftermarket revenues you tend to get from a big project?
That varies a lot because it's a question how old a plant we are talking about in a couple of first years. The services, it's mainly kind of inspections and optimizing operation. Then the mill is aging, then it's going to be more and more kind of replacement of equipment and things like that. It's kind of gradually increasing. There is no single number what that might be.
Yes. Then James Filsell is asking, how much of the demand growth do you expect to be fulfilled by increased recycling of pulp? What do you expect for the demand growth in virgin pulp? Well, this was a little bit covered, maybe coming back to this topic of recycled versus virgin.
I say that it's somewhere between 1.5% is increase in demand of the virgin pulp. That might be even be higher in the future.
Sindre Sørbye with the question about, what potential do you see with lignin extraction and refining, similarly for microfibrillated cellulose?
This lignin extraction, like I said, it's already commercial process, but there is still a lot of work actually ongoing at the moment that what the end use might be. There's a lot of potential, but there's no yet kind of breakthrough. There is plenty of potential. As you know, in this business, it takes 10 years to develop something new.
Yes. Great. Tommi Saukkoriipi with question, how is the pricing discipline currently within your industry? Pricing compared to the competitors, I guess.
Of course, we need to be competitive. That's one of the key factor. If you are going to take a deal, you have to be the competitive, meaning that your cost structure have to be right, your performance has to be right, and so on, then you can cut a deal.
Great. All right. I think we are a little bit now running out of time for the Q&A. There are still more questions, so sorry if your question didn't get asked. I tried to cover all of those. Thank you, Jussi, for presentation and answers, and we will now take Tuomas Petänen on stage.
Thank you.
Who will be presenting Valmet Industrial Internet.
Thank you. Hello, I'm Tuomas Petänen. I'm heading the Energy Segment Industrial Internet, and I will next explain what the Industrial Internet means for us currently in Pulp and Energy, and also how we see the future. If we start from customer perspective first, the main idea is that the profitability of the customer assets can be improved with real-time data and analytics. In this picture, you can see power plant and its basic revenue model. Power plant is producing electricity and heat, as Kai Janhunen earlier mentioned. On the cost side, the main costs related to it is the fuel costs, especially when we are talking about solid fuel fire plants, the fuel cost is significant part.
Also costs related to covering emissions, other additives such as own electricity consumption, and also the maintenance costs. It's nothing new that the aim of customers is to maximize the revenues of electricity and heat production while minimizing the cost at the same time. If we think about what is the role of the Industrial Internet, it is about the fact that the plants are being operated 24/7, basically the entire year. If you put that into optimization words, it means that it's being operated 500,000 minutes within a year. That's actually what we are after when we are talking about the Industrial Internet. We are looking at answering questions such as, is your plant running in optimal capacity right now? How to know that it's on the optimum.
If you take an example from the district heating side that was discussed earlier, the district heating situation goes so that during the summertime, there is much less need for heat, and then in the cold winter months, there is much more need for heat, and you need to optimize the capacity and how to know how far you can get. That's one part of this Industrial Internet. Another aspect to this is that how can we prevent upcoming failures in the production process? How to predict those faster? Similar to those, also improving the fuel economy. As I mentioned already, in solid fuel plants, the fuel is really important. The plants are being operated 24/7, so it means that there are multiple different operator shifts utilizing the plants. They can be running the plants in different ways.
The key thing here is to make sure that they are actually always running in the same way, the most efficient way. That's what we are tackling. Similar to that one, also on electricity consumption and consumption of additives. What we are claiming, what we are tackling with Industrial Internet is that every minute counts in plant profitability. This was an example of the power plant. If you think about it from the pulp perspective, actually exactly the same principles apply. On that side, we are looking at different revenues. It's about pulp production, other revenue streams such as turpentine, green electricity. On the cost side, the raw materials and chemicals are the most important. The basic principle is the same, how to optimize the process every minute by maximizing the revenues, minimizing the costs.
Here are some of the questions that we are responding on the pulp side. I won't go through them now, but as said, very similar things as I explained on the energy side. If we think about why Valmet is investing in Industrial Internet, I actually explained the first bullet already in the previous slide. The main thinking is that we are moving our customers' performance forward. What this means is that actually the operations and maintenance phase of the processes is improved by the Industrial Internet. We are also getting new insight with real-time process data. We understand better how the customers are operating the assets that we have delivered. We know all the time what is happening, how they are being used, from the energy side, what kind of fuels are being used, et cetera.
We understand better how the performance is going, what kind of things are needed, what kind of challenges the customers may face. Digitalization also, it improves our competitiveness by improving our performance of the processes and also the availability of the processes. One more thing that we have seen, especially now in the COVID situation, that the improved efficiency of our services by being able to support our customers remotely in troubleshooting and also, for instance, in startup support, these have been very important things that we have been able to tackle. We also see that even though the COVID is a temporary situation, these capabilities that we have been able to develop, those will be also important after we have tackled the issue.
Why we see that Valmet is strong in the Industrial Internet and compared to our competitors is actually what Jussi already mentioned a little bit. It's the process technology, having the understanding how the process is supposed to operate, having the understanding of the controls and automation, how it's supposed to operate, and also having the analytical tools to make it all happen. We see that those all are needed to actually being able to provide customer value. I'll show shortly what kind of applications we are talking about. Here you can see an application that is actually used for a power plant, and the main idea in this case is to make sure that the plant is doing the maximum operation at all times. It's run by the operator who is running the plant, and what you can see here is the power that is currently being produced.
You can see real-time analysis as well that how much could be produced if you actually want to tackle the latest maximum. In the current situation, there is very small difference, so the operator is running very close to the actual maximum. We can get this information, and based on what we have looked at different plants so far, the potential is somewhere around 5% when you are maximizing the production. It is varying all the time, and the reasons for that is that the quality of fuel and changes in the process makes quite a lot of variance in the system. This is one example of what kind of applications we are creating, and it's aimed for performance optimization. We have similar applications also in the reliability side to improve the predictive maintenance. That's just a short demo.
To summarize a little bit about the key elements in Valmet Industrial Internet. Actually, the Valmet Customer Portal on the right in the picture, that is used to collaborate with the customers, and that is also used to manage the access rights and security of the offering that we are creating. The Industrial Internet applications, I just showed an example. They are working both on the performance optimization and reliability side. The Valmet Performance Center is actually the way to serve our customers. Now that we are able to collect the data from our deliveries, understanding how they're performing, we can support the customer better in providing the information that you should do this to improve the performance. Also troubleshooting the issues that they may have. Other topics, intelligent machines and automation.
What we are seeing now is that we also need to add measurements into the system so that we can actually track everything that we want from optimization perspective. We have very good understanding what is already there, what can be done. That's also something that we can do quite well and well going forward. Another aspect I want to mention shortly is the solution ecosystem. We are also looking at how to bring industry players and innovative startups together to co-create new value with data-driven services. This is something when we are working in the Industrial Internet, we always need to actively look at that, who to cooperate with. Main opportunities through digitalization and Valmet Industrial Internet. First one is the predictive maintenance. Main opportunity there is to improve the plant availability.
It is actually very expensive to our customers if the process has an unplanned shutdown. The purpose of this is to get rid of those situations. Where we are currently is that we are able to track these deviations, notice them faster. The next step is that we need to actually become predictive. Another one is the autonomous mills. The main idea there is to optimize the entire production processes, whether it's a pulp mill or whether it's electricity network, steam network, how to optimize the entire process. Currently, we are in the situation that we can optimize the process islands separately, and we also have means to analyze the entire processes. The next step is actually to optimize the entire mill. Feed management, another perspective that when we have all this data in collection, we can actually compare different processes, how they are performing.
We can faster recognize if something is not operating as it should be, and we can also provide this information to customer so that they understand what kind of improvement opportunities they have compared to similar processes. Last but not least, when we are connecting these different systems from different customer areas, we can also provide corporation-level transparency to our customers. They have ability for real-time follow-up of critical performance parameters, and based on that, better visibility how to manage the entire process. As an example here, we see that the CO2 emissions follow-up in real time is something that is potential going to the future. That was what I had in mind for Industrial Internet. Thank you.
All right. Thank you, Tuomas. Next up on the agenda is a summary of key messages by Bertel Karlstedt .
Thank you, Pekka. Is it functioning now? Is it okay? All right. Okay, good. Let's restart. A recap and a repetition of what actually has been said here, and I think you will recognize the key messages I have on the slide. If we start top left, we are a leading supplier in a global market, and we have a know-how base that is sufficient in the present and will be a good foundation to build further upon for the future. We also saw that on the numbers, we have good years behind us. Orders received wise, we have a good last 12 month, and we continue to see a good market, especially on the pulping side as we go forward based upon the activity we see in the market as we speak.
Yes, we have ambition and we have first steps taken, I would say successful first steps taken on those growth platforms of environmental systems as well as biomass conversion technologies. All of the speakers today have brought forward the joint strength of process technology, automation, and services. I think it was Kai who said that Industrial Internet is the glue that brings them all together. That is the unique strength we have. That is the strength that we leverage to our customers' benefit. This brings the solution that he needs for the initial investment, for the life cycle of that plant, as well as for those 500,000 minutes that need to be optimized, like Tuomas brought forward.
I think that cooperation with Valmet is also the strength of us working together, sharing knowledge, and using our globals and developing our experts globally. That is the strength that we have. When we look at the two different businesses, if I go bottom right, yes, in energy, EMEA will continue to have a key role in our future, looking at the markets. We clearly see the growing need for energy production in the developing countries. We are looking to Asia and Far East markets mainly. I could say that the EU Green Deal, with its proposed targets for 2030, 2040, and 2050, yes, you can see it as a threat, but you can also see it as an opportunity for us. How can we contribute to that happening based upon the knowledge we have in-house? That is a key question for us going forward.
Whether we are talking Europe or whether we are talking faraway markets, it's about resource efficiency, how to make best use of that fuel, whatever it is, and out of a process that is environmentally friendly and clean. Looking at the pulp market, we have the complete offering. We see a market that still projects growth opportunities. It is based upon the changed need of different paper grades. It's based upon the differences in development and need in short fiber, long fiber, hardwood, soft wood. It's also a question of those side streams, waste streams, and how to turn those into value streams instead.
There, as we heard from Jussi, we have a good set of already ready products on the market with first references out there, and with the future that we think will bring more business along those lines. We have a good set of knowledges, we have a good strength internally in the corporation, and we have growth markets that we are serving well today, and we intend to do so in the future as well. That's my recap of what has been discussed. Pekka, you're next.
Great. Thank you, Bertel, for that. We will now move to the last Q&A session. This time Bertel will be addressing those. Please send a lot of questions here. We have already a couple. The line is now open for more. Tommi Saukkoriipi is asking: What impact would the inclusion of Neles have on your business? Better customer offering synergies or something else?
I don't want to speculate about the future in that sense. We all know that Neles Valves and majority of Valmet today have a joint history. I think there is a very natural synergy from a history perspective to work together. Yes, Neles Valves is, of course, a big supplier to a pulp mill. Last week, one of our customers says he has 2,000 Neles Valves in his mill. Definitely it would be an additional capital business opportunity as well as, of course, a service and life cycle opportunity as well. Very interesting from way I look upon it.
Getting back to a question from Antti Suttelin in relating to the how much of sales derive from the four value-adding processes. There was a little bit more explanation, these being the Sulfuric Acid.
Yeah.
Valmet Gasifier, LignoBoost, and sugar extraction.
Jussi brought forward that, I would say they are all on the market already, and we have the references sold for all of them already, the first ones. I still see there is a growing interest and need. I still see it as a little bit of a sporadic market. All of those technologies are dual-digit volumes. If you can take an order, it's probably EUR 10 million-30 million each. We will have a few of those a year. That gives you the order of magnitude. We are talking about still two-digit orders received volume on a yearly level. That's the way I see it from a volume perspective.
Definitely when we see the use for that extracted lignin to take off, there will be a big interest from all the existing pulp mills and the new ones to consider LignoBoost as part of their process as well.
Question from Patrick Milliken regarding the European Green Deal. How can Valmet profit from the European Green Deal?
I mentioned already, there will be official 2030 and 2050 targets and perhaps an intermediate 2040 target. It's a change that will happen over time. There will be, still for a long time, a dependency upon the technologies we have at the market already today. We have a very deep knowledge in energy generation, combustion, as well as utilization of different type of fuels. I think we will have a role in that development happening. What type of opportunities it will bring us, what type of threats it will bring us remains to be seen. I see we can have a strong role in the European EU Green Deal materializing during the coming 10, 20, 30 years.
Tomi Railo asking, "Back to sales phase comment regarding cost deliveries.
All right.
Switching my microphone here. Question from Tomi Railo, back to sales phase comment regarding cost deliveries. Has pricing environment improved split orders, I assume with Andritz, pros and cons? Reason to better delivery track record. Comments on the pipeline where we see what size is timetables. Maybe we start from the sales phase comment regarding cost deliveries. Has pricing environment improved?
I do not want to look upon this now from a market price perspective. I go back to the comments that Jussi also gave. It was perhaps a fair comment, an earlier question about issues that we had in the past. We have taken strong internal measures, looking at our processes, recognizing the fact that the success in the project is drawn from the first day at the sales phase, and we have focused on both the sales process as well as the project delivery process, and we see the results. We have improved clearly, and I trust that we can improve further. I think that based upon good internal measures taken, we have improved, and we will continue to improve.
There was a question about the split orders with Andritz. Pros and cons?
I think the decision ultimately is always taken by the customer. What is the driver? What is the reason for him to make the decision? Is he going to cherry-pick and buy whichever technology he thinks is the best for the individual islands, or does he have reasons to want to go with a one contract, one supplier, one takes care of it all? There is no general rule there. It's a customer-specific decision-making, and we can live with both.
Any comments on the order pipeline, especially, I guess, on the pulp side?
Well, there is still activity in the big pulp mill market as well. You also mentioned it also Latin America, Southeast Asia, China. I foresee that we will see decisions forthcoming during the coming year as well. Don't ask me who will make it and when, but the activity to me indicates there will be further decisions, and that is based upon the fact that there is an underlying growth supported by the elevated consumption of tissue in times of COVID, as well as an elevated continued growth in packaging rates.
Tom Skogman is asking that only a relatively minor part of the Pulp and Energy sales are from North America. It has the largest installed base of chemical pulp capacity. Will North America ever turn into a real business opportunity for Valmet, or will they simply close their mills eventually?
It is a fact that there has been very minor, if you look at big investment into the North American pulping industry. We see some activity today. We also see the activity of Asian companies buying up mills in North America and considering them for revamps and rebuilds. Still, the market is really modest. Yes, there is some activity, whether it will be North American-based companies or foreign companies that will do the next wave in the U.S., it remains to be seen.
One can imagine that Valmet will move into the direction of pulp production as a service. Is it realistic that you can expand the scope into the operation of the mills?
If I say so, I don't want to speculate about the long- term, but for the time being, I don't recognize such an ambition and drive at our end.
Question from Aurelio Calderon: How is the Pulp and Energy business dimension today versus five years ago? What percent of your cost base is fixed, and what is the level of revenues that the business can handle without significant margin erosion? All right, two questions really here. How is the Pulp and Energy business dimension today versus five years ago?
Our cost base has been lowered a little bit, but not that significantly. We still have the same capacity, I would say, and we have been able to build additional flexibility. If I look at our cost structure is slightly stronger now, and the fact is also that in P&E, in Pulp and Energy, we have a fairly low amount of own production, which means that our capacity cost is actually fairly low or overall cost.
If the volume levels of sales would come down to a level, for example, of EUR 750 million-EUR 800 million, would that mean that your profitability would come down?
We are always going to be a capacity-driven, volume-driven business. We have a structure today that make us be able to have a quite wide window of top line without seeing a too drastic deterioration of the profitability of our business. We were only a EUR 700 million, EUR 800 million business only two years ago. We are EUR 1 billion today.
Yes, that's correct. Tom Skogman: is it from an environmental and efficiency perspective, better to generate heat and electricity in your boilers from forest residuals, or is it better to make biofuels like UPM plans to do from forest residuals?
I don't have the exact numbers here talking about fuel efficiency and raw material efficiency. This is of course, a different approach and a different need by different actors. In this case, the pulp and paper industry, they can take, like we heard here before, they can take that bark and gasify it into be a lime kiln fuel. They could take it to a power boiler and generate heat and electricity and sell to the grid. I don't have the stats. I don't have the numbers. Again, it's very much a question of the customer's need and ambition that decides what way he goes and how he utilizes that.
Antti Kansanen from SEB. If you would have an unlimited R&D budget and resources, where would you invest first?
That's a really tricky question. I think We will never have an unlimited R&D budget. I have to admit, I think when looking at the future and the amount of change that we will see in the industries that we are serving in P&E, we should be looking more into the energy transition, which will look and be a different future than what we are seeing today. You could also challenge and say, well, pulp has been looking the same for many years, but I think that the future will bring a bigger change, a need for change in energy than in pulp as such. Probably I would put more on the energy side.
Sure. There is a little bit on that note, another question from Antti Suttelin. You appear positive on pulp equipment demand over the next years. What about energy? Do you see growth over the next years?
We see continued growth in the developing countries and the developing areas of the world that Kai brought forward. I hope and I trust that we can find a way to, should I say, direct our forces, our capabilities, and knowledge to also find growth through the EU Green Deal. That is my vision of what we need to accomplish going forward.
Okay. As a reminder, please post questions. We still have here a couple, but I guess we will have time until half past, so please don't hesitate. A question from Antti Kansanen. Still back to the historical cost overruns. When in the project delivery timeline, this became evident for you in the past, close to handover or already during the early part of the equipment delivery phase?
I don't think there is one common answer to that if you look at the individual projects. There is one common fact. We always learned it too late, and that is where our process have been improved to recognize them early enough. Like I said, if you are to fail early and mitigate early, because the further along the path of the time schedule you have gone, the bigger the consequences always are. There is no common denominator if I look back at the projects other than that you always learn it a little bit too late.
A question from James Filsell. How much of the legacy coal capacity in Europe has already been decommissioned or converted to alternative source of energy? How long until there is no further opportunities in Europe?
Again, a statistics question that I would almost like to ask Kai to answer. We could come back to the answer later as well. I don't have that statistics, neither one of them really. I don't know if Kai have them either. Let's see. I don't have the numbers, the statistics, and the facts to answer that question.
Okay, another reminder to you. We still have time for questions. Now, if there are any final ones, please post them and we will present.
Six more minutes.
Question from Tomi Railo here. What is the capacity utilization level currently in Pulp and Energy separately, and how does it look into 2021?
Separately, does he mean energy?
In Pulp and in Energy.
I would say based upon the two years of EUR 1 billion orders received in 2018, 2019, and close to EUR 1 billion in 2020 as well. We are through the line working with a good and healthy load. Whether we are looking at Pulp and Energy. We are having a good load situation in the present, and we have a good, healthy order backlog for the coming year as well. We have a good situation in that sense.
Good. Johan Eliason is asking, you seem to have a fairly complete product portfolio, but are there any areas where you see potential for some acquisitions?
I think the pulp and paper industry has been an industry that has been consolidating quite rapidly during the last 20, 30 years. We have seen things happening at our place as well. three big acquisitions fairly lately, GL&V, J&L, PMP Group. Valmet will continue to seek opportunities to strengthen its product offering and its capability to serve the customers even better. Of course, in P&E, we are always also looking at what could we do on that side. Don't want to reveal any details. Yes, definitely, we are looking for adding strengths and finding synergies, should I say, take the next step in consolidation to the benefit of the customer.
A follow-up question. Are you seeing any significant changes in competition in pulp or in energy?
I would say that in pulp, the situation is quite stable. Most of us know, most of you know as well, it's a big global two-player game with local competition on certain technologies, depending on where you go in the world, local competition in China, local competition in Latin America. In that sense, I don't see a big change on that side. On the energy side, it's more a handful of, should I say, similar type of globally active, well-renowned technology producers. There we have seen a little bit of consolidation on a quite high level as well, actually. To my knowledge, no bigger things ongoing. On other hand, the acquisitions typically take you by surprise, don't they? No, nothing big to my knowledge at the moment.
A question regarding emissions in the pulp mill. How much emissions are there in a new pulp mill, and how much further can you go for them to be net zero? Is the technology already there?
I would say it's impossible to quantify the amount of emissions. There are some key things that you follow in a pulp mill. On top of the raw material yield and the end product quality, a key topic is the amount of water that you are consuming and amount of used process water that you are emitting back to nature. On that side, we have come a long way from where we were 10 or 20 years ago. I would say that we are a fraction of the water is needed today compared to what was used then. The development will continue and the race is on between the process suppliers to be able to beat the other one on that. I would say that the development will continue, whether we are talking emissions to the air or emission to water, we will see continued development.
To quantify that, I don't have. I don't have the amount of kilos of something per produced ton, or the amount of I know it's a single-digit liter of water per produced ton, but not any more factual details on that level.
Okay, housekeeping question from Antti Suttelin. Who are the top two in energy boilers, Valmet typically being the third biggest company here? Who are the other big competitors in energy boilers?
Well, Andritz is there as well. Foster Wheeler is there with the new ownership. Babcock & Wilcox has been a big one. We have local competitors, Finnish, Danish, European, local competitors. If you look at the global perspective and big size boilers, I think that's probably the competitors were more or less there already with their present partners, if I talk about Foster Wheeler.
A question from Tomi Railo. You mentioned Chinese pulp competition. What differentiates them from you? What makes you to win more orders in China? Have you seen these companies outside of China?
The local competition?
The local competition in China in pulp.
We have seen some of them because some of the local Chinese competitors have affiliation with some of our key customers. I would say that the local Chinese competition is still quite much a low-cost competitor with less technical references and capabilities to show. Then the question is, what is the customer prioritizing more in his decision-making? I would say that the local Chinese competitors are mainly local in China. The local Brazilian South American competitors are mainly local in Latin America, and they're fierce competitors in that market. We don't see them that much on a global scale. On pulp, it is Valmet and Andritz who are the global players with a full portfolio. Both of us, I have to admit.
Thank you, Bertel, and thank you for excellent questions. Thanks for all the presenters here, and thank you to the audience. The recording of this event will be available on Valmet website relatively soon, shortly, so you can revert back to them if you want to look at the recording. I would encourage you to also leave us feedback. There is a feedback survey on the webcast platform, so please do that. From now I will close the event and thank you for the audience and for the presenters.
Thank you on my behalf as well, and thank you for the interest and the good and challenging questions, I guess, for all of us. Thank you.