Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the webcast presentation of Delta Property Fund's financial results for the year ended 28 February 2025. We appreciate your time and interest in joining us today. Please note that the question and answer session will follow the presentation in this regard. Please submit your questions at any point during the session by clicking on the Questions tab located under the logo at the top left of your screen. There is a bit of a lag which means that we might not get all the questions if you post these right at the end. A recording of today's presentation will be made available on Delta's website later this morning and also can be accessed via the same registration link that you use to join this webcast. With that, it's my pleasure to hand over to Ms.
Bongi Masinga, Chief Executive Officer of Delta Property Fund, will provide an overview of the group's performance and outlook. Bongi
thank you Monet. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our presentation on Delta's financial and operational performance for the financial year ended 28 February 2025. With me is our CFO Fikile Mhlontlo who will take us through the financials. You will notice that our theme for 2025 financial year was focusing on fundamentals. Although some challenges remain, this emphasis on getting the basics right has laid the foundation for increased momentum in our turnaround strategy. We are coming to the tail end of the REIT reporting season and it is important for us to remember how Delta is differentiated from other listed landlords. The portfolio at financial year end comprised of 83 properties with a gross lettable area of approximately 781,000 sq m, independently valued at ZAR 6.4 billion. Most of these assets are located in central business districts and provide better accessibility to the general public.
Importantly, throughout this presentation you will notice a decoupling between core and non-core portfolios. The core portfolio comprises 577,000 sq m of rentable space compared to 204,000 sq m in the non-core portfolio that will be disposed of. Key focus areas for the financial year included addressing the disposal of non-core assets, debt covenant requirements, especially the ICR ratio, securing new and retaining current tenants, and improving rental collections. Let's take a moment to step back to look at broader market forces influencing our environment and how we are positioning ourselves to navigate them.
Firstly, sector fundamentals are strengthening. While the recovery is uneven across sub asset classes, we are seeing encouraging signals that suggest a more resilient foundation is being laid that can support sustained long term growth. Whilst we welcome the recent interest rate cuts and the relief this brings, overall borrowing costs remain high and continue to influence investment appetite and balance sheet decisions. On the cost front, pressures remain acute. We are seeing above inflation increases in municipal rates and electricity tariffs, further complicated by inconsistent utility supply. These structural cost challenges are top of mind and require active mitigation strategies. The market is also highly competitive. Although rental pressure is a reality, we continue to remain competitive and are fortunate that lease reversions did not significantly impact the revenue. We are managing this with a disciplined approach to leasing and portfolio optimization.
One of the ways we are addressing these pressures is through the continued implementation of our strategic plan. This includes the disposal of non-core properties, an intentional move that helps us right-size operating costs and strengthen the balance sheet. Looking ahead, we do foresee a gradual improvement in business sentiment. There are shifts in policy, particularly in the government property sector. Taken together, all of this gives us reason to be cautiously optimistic. We anticipate improved operational and financial performance over the medium term. This will be driven by sector recovery and a more balanced and disciplined approach to risk and return, notwithstanding stagnant economic growth and a higher-for-longer interest rate environment. Our consistent focus on cost optimization, debt reduction, lease renewals, and disposals continued to gain traction in most key areas.
We have a clear path to reduce loan -to -value and improve interest cover ratio that will reposition Delta for growth and the recommencement of distributions. Revenue contracted marginally to ZAR 1.1 billion as a result of rental reversions and impacted by a single vacancy at SARS Belleville of 16,000 sq m from the third quarter of the year under review. Net operating income, however, increased by 10.3% to ZAR 721.5 million. Driven by the successful implementation of strategic initiatives such as cost optimisation and disposal of non-core assets. The vacancy rate reduced marginally to 31.9%. Our team's leasing efforts were more pronounced in the core portfolio where vacancies dropped from 24.2% last year to 18.4%. As alluded to earlier, our focus on service quality and strategic CapEx spend supported the renewal of leases and retaining tenants. The weighted average lease expiry rate is now standing at 14.7 months.
Portfolio valuation stabilized compared to deep write downs in prior financial years. We expect that these valuations will start to improve in the current financial year as more non-core properties are disposed of and based on our ongoing focus on leasing initiatives in the core portfolio. As you can see on the slide, we disposed of ZAR 406 million of non-core assets during the financial year, some of which are still in transfer notwithstanding the auction process employed to dispose of some of the tail end assets. I want to highlight that most of our disposals during and subsequent to the financial year was, I'm sorry about that, our disposals during and subsequent to the financial year end was at or close to book, indicative of a fairly valued portfolio.
I will touch on this again a bit later on. A question we often receive from our investors is what will Delta look like once the portfolio optimization strategy has run its course? I'm pleased to share that we are progressing steadily towards a more focused, financially resilient REIT. We originally earmarked non-core assets for disposal valued at approximately ZAR 2.2 billion. We have to date disposed approximately ZAR 800 million of non-core assets over the last three years. Post disposal, Delta will emerge as a smaller but significantly more sustainable business with a core portfolio valued at around ZAR 5 billion or less. This is a portfolio that is better aligned with our strategic focus and operational strengths. In today's terms, this core portfolio is expected to generate a net operating income of approximately ZAR 660 million, ensuring that the platform remains cash generative and positioned for growth.
Crucially, this shift will also bring meaningful improvement to our financial matrix. We expect loan -to -value ratios to stabilize between 40-50% and interest cover to improve to around two times comfortably within our covenant thresholds. This will of course pave the way to returning to paying consistent distributions to our shareholders. This next chapter of Delta is not about size. It's about sustainability, efficiency, and the ability to scale from a position of strength. It's a common misperception in the market that we are forced sellers of our assets. This is evident from the number of opportunistic offers received or offers on assets that are not for sale. Most of the properties expected to transfer in the short term have all been disposed of at book value or at a premium.
This speaks to the fair valuation of the portfolio as such as it demonstrates our resolve to engage with serious buyers at market related prices despite a challenging market. We disposed of and transferred six properties with a combined fair value of ZAR 155 million and GLA of approximately 42,000 sq m for a total gross consideration of ZAR 158 million subsequent to year end. Further, four properties with a fair value of ZAR 32 million and GLA of just under 10,000 sq m were transferred for a gross consideration of ZAR 33 million. A further eight properties with a combined fair value of ZAR 264 million and GLA of 76,000 sq m have also been disposed of for a total gross consideration of ZAR 215 million and a pending transfer. These assets were disposed of via auction and represent the bottom end of the portfolio comprising predominantly vacant buildings.
As these properties transfer, ICR will continue to improve as proceeds from these disposals are applied to reducing debt. We are seeing more disposal related activities since the year end, signaling improving business sentiment and changing of fortunes for the sector. Notwithstanding macroeconomic headwinds, Delta has disposed of more assets in 2025 than in any other financial year since 2020. You will notice that most of these disposals were historically at or close to book value. The aggregate selling price of properties during the year under review was, however, ZAR 30.8 million lower than book, representing a 7.6% discount to the fair value price. It is important to note that this relates to three mostly vacant assets representing the bottom end of the portfolio needing significant amounts of CapEx to restore them to a tenantable condition. These were the assets disposed of during an auction process.
As mentioned earlier, our CapEx focus is on the core portfolio with the objective of attracting new and retaining current tenants. Properties with the highest capital expenditure for the 2025 financial year were therefore also those assets where we had the largest prospect of renewing leases or signing new tenants. Most of the expenditure for 2025 focused on maintenance CapEx, in particular electrical, building, general maintenance, and air conditioning upkeep. Delta extensively revamped Shell House, that is, in upgrading the reception area, renovating ablutions facilities, lift upgrades, and fire compliance. Renovations at Delta Towers include complete lift overhaul, fire compliance, fire doors, renovated one of the floors, etc. We are busy at Poynton's upgrading kitchens and ablution facilities in a 34 sq m area and accommodating Defence.
This is to mention but a few. During the reporting period we successfully renewed 79 leases covering a total GLA of 111,000 sq m with a weighted average lease term of 2.4 years. In addition, we signed new leases for 22,000 sq m with a weighted average lease term of 3.1 years. The weighted average rental across the portfolio declined to ZAR 106.4 per sq m from ZAR 114.6 per sq m in the prior year, primarily due to rental reversions. Investors have previously asked for an update on legal matters. A judgment was granted in favor of Delta declaring the former executives delinquent in terms of the Companies Act. The affected former executives filed an appeal against the judgment, which was dismissed with costs after year end. On the Ethekwini Property Fund matter, the disputed amount of ZAR 26 million before interest is held in trust, which we are in the process of recovering.
I am pleased to declare that the Orthotouch claim against Delta was dismissed and this matter has now run its course. Ladies and gentlemen, this then concludes the first part of my presentation. I now hand you over to Fikile Mhlontlo to run through the numbers.
Thank you Bongi and good morning ladies and gentlemen. Looking at some of the key financial metrics, you will notice that the weighted average cost of debt decreased by 0.2 from 11.4 to 11.2 in the financial year. This is supported by ICR which improved slightly from 1.3 to 1.4 times cover. As Bongi mentioned earlier on transfer of disposed properties, this ratio is expected to improve further. It is also the main ratio focused on by our lenders. The respective SA REIT and covenant LTV ratios weakened marginally on the back of the fair value loss reported for the year. I will unpack this more in detail in slide 25 later on for the interest sake. SA REIT LTV is calculated as a ratio between total liabilities total assets, while the covenant LTV is based on the ratio of assets funded and debt.
SA REIT net asset value per share was ZAR 3.40 at the financial year end, slightly down from the ZAR 3.50 reported in the previous financial year, mainly as a result of bottoming out of the portfolio valuation. Support from our funders remains strong with the successful renewal of maturing debt facilities. I will elaborate more on this later on in the presentation. Delta has reported a significant increase in net operating income and remains highly cash generative. Unpacking the results further, revenue remained relatively stable, tracking 2% down at ZAR 1.14 billion, mainly as a result of rental reversions and a single vacancy of 16,000 sq m from the third quarter of the year under review, which was discussed earlier, had an impact.
Net operating income increased by 10.3% to ZAR 721 million from ZAR 653 million in the prior financial year as the result of continued debt management, cost control, the disposal strategy as well as concerted efforts in leasing and tenant retention as a result of group's ongoing cost optimization. Property operating expenses were reduced by 12.8% year -on -year from ZAR 483.9 million to ZAR 422 million. This saving was driven by a reduction in assessment rates following the successful challenge of municipality property valuations. Further savings were as a result of cost containment measures including supplier changes, contract renegotiations and disposal of non-core properties. Admin expenses increased by 5.4% from ZAR 96.6 million in FY 2024 to ZAR 101.7 million driven by inflationary pressures and higher legal costs related to ongoing legacy litigation.
Non-cash fair value adjustment losses of ZAR 22.2 million compared to FY 2024 of ZAR 217.2 million losses, including higher expected credit losses of ZAR 25.5 million compared to FY 2024 of ZAR 2.25 million and taxation of ZAR 33.3 million compared to ZAR 3 million in the previous year contributed to the group reporting a net loss of ZAR 104.2 million, up from the net loss of ZAR 77.6 million in the prior year. The fair value adjustment losses include a ZAR 43.5 million decline compared to FY 2024 ZAR 30.3 million decline in the valuation of Grit investment in, I beg your pardon, relating to Grit's investment in valuation, which decline is as a result of sustained share price pressures driven by weak emerging market sentiments and current currency volatility. Operating profit for the year is ZAR 388 million.
After taking into account finance costs and taxation we end up with a loss of ZAR 104 million as referred to above, marginally higher compared to the previous year. In the main, the biggest reasons for the slight adjustment in losses is as a result of the fair value adjustment loss on Grit, the higher ECL, and the taxation charge getting to the balance sheet. The net value for the reporting period of investment properties contracted to ZAR 6.4 billion from ZAR 6.7 billion as a result of disposals alluded to earlier, which is a positive development, and those disposals are aligned to our strategy as referred to by Bongi. The expectation is for the portfolio to decrease in value by the increase in quality as we dispose non-core properties over time. As at the end of the period, the trade receivables were ZAR 155 million, up from ZAR 107 million in the previous year.
The current average collection rate for the period is sitting at 95.1% compared to 101.5% in FY 2024. The increase in trade receivable is mainly due to collection delays experienced with some of the key tenants. A total provision for bad debts of ZAR 61 million was recognized at the end of year representing approximately 40% of trade receivables. The ECL for the year amounted to ZAR 25.5 million which we touched on as we were looking at the income statement earlier on. In the main it is caused by increase in accounts receivable. Trade and other payables have remained stable year on year sitting at ZAR 180 million compared to FY 2024 which was ZAR 175 million. Interest bearing borrowings decreased from ZAR 4 billion to ZAR 3.8 billion as a result of capital repayments. Capital repayments amounted to ZAR 237.5 million of which ZAR 144 million was funded from proceeds on disposal of properties.
92.9 million was funded from operations, ZAR 4.1 million was funded from Grit dividend which was received in May 2024 relating to or accrued for in the previous financial year. In addition, Group has a revolving credit facility of ZAR 64.3 million as at year end, of which ZAR 41.5 million had been drawn. This is in addition, of course, to the overdraft facility that we have. As mentioned earlier, support from the funders remains strong. In actual fact, when you look at this, we read this as a signal of signaling support towards the business and aligning with the strategies. The renewal of facilities included Nedbank initially extending to 7 April 2025 and subsequently to 7 April 2026, 12 months. We have seen Standard Bank extending for 18 months to 31 May 2026. We have seen the Bank of China extending for 2 years to 31 December 2026.
We've also seen State Bank of India extending its facility to 7 June 2027 being three years and we have also lastly seen Investec consolidating its facilities to Delta into a single facility and renewing the facility for 24 months to 7 March 2027. As I indicated earlier, these renewals are once again a strong indication of ongoing support the financial institutions are extending to Delta and also supporting the turnaround strategy that the CEO alluded to. When you look at this slide you will see that Delta remains cash generative which allows us the headroom to address all the costs and obligations relating to financial obligations. The company has the group repaid interest bearing debt as indicated earlier of ZAR 92.9 million also has utilized the proceeds from disposals of ZAR 144 million to continue to pay facilities pay off facilities but also we have serviced our interest.
You will notice that our interest charge is a significant number in the financial statement in this financial year is sitting at ZAR 463 million and we have we continue to service that on a day to day. When you do an analysis in terms of where we were with debt and where we are currently as reflected in the slide before us, Delta has been implementing a strategy as we have indicated, but part of the strategy is reducing debt and has repaid an amount of ZAR 1.2 billion of debt over the last five years. As we move on to this slide that we have in front of us, our covenant strategy is twofold. One is ICR and the other one is LTV.
As indicated by the CEO, this ratio in terms of ICR is expected to improve to around 1.6-1.8 times cover on completion of the transfer of recently disposed assets. Our funders, as alluded to earlier, have recently emphasized that the improvement in ICR is a priority and will lead to them seeing Delta's investment case in a different light. Positively, our disposal strategy prioritizes assets with ICR of one times cover or less, followed by the second tranche of assets where the ICR on a per building basis is less than 1.3. As these disposals filter through, once again, ICR will steadily improve on the back of a higher quality portfolio. The second priority is turning LTV. In this regard, our focus remains on improving the underlying value of the portfolio through tenant retentions, signing of new leases, and rental income collection.
For this reason our CapEx allocation is towards assets in the core portfolio. I am pleased to report that the group continued to generate healthy operational cash flows totaling ZAR 565.4 million for the period. This healthy cash generation reinforces the underlying strength and resilience of our portfolio even in a challenging operating environment. The bulk of this cash was allocated to support our financial commitments and strategic priorities. ZAR 446 million of this cash generated was directed towards finance costs, ensuring we maintain a disciplined approach to debt servicing. ZAR 27 million went to tax obligations, reflecting our compliance and contribution to SARS and our contribution. We invested ZAR 44.6 million in net capital expenditure, which supports long term value and sustainability of the business. Lend lease liability settlements accounted for ZAR 3.9 million. We also made debt repayments of ZAR 92.9 million out of operations.
Lastly, it was ZAR 144 million which was paid directly to debt funders out of the proceeds on disposal of assets. In summary, this capital allocation reflects our commitment to financial discipline, operational focus, and long-term value creation. The funds from operations declined by 19.3% from ZAR 133.6 million in FY2024 to ZAR 107 million, which translates to ZAR 0.187, compared to ZAR 0.151 in the current year. This was influenced by a tax charge and ECL movement. Recognizing profit and loss, of importance is that the distributable income before taking into account taxation is ZAR 0.196 compared to ZAR 0.191. That is quite important in unpacking that in the context of the impact of COVID-19 and the legacy governance challenges.
The Fund reported a significant portfolio write-downs of over ZAR 1 billion in financial year 2023 and although some headwinds remain, I'm pleased to report that the portfolio value stabilized through the past two financial years and is expected to continually improve as we dispose of assets that have income yield that is lower than the cost of debt on the NAV bridge. Notable decrease include asset disposals, resultant decrease in debt component as well as decrease in interest-bearing borrowings through accelerated repayment of debt. The decrease in NAV is predominantly attributable to fair value adjustment loss on the property portfolio. I now hand back to Bongi for the conclusion. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Fikile. In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, despite significant economic headwinds in particularly the office sector, we have made solid inroads in the delivery of our stated strategy. We are continuing to make measurable progress in several key areas of financial performance. This includes the disposal of non-core properties, prudent debt management, tight cost control, the growth of net operating income, and leasing enhancements that support long-term occupancy stability. As we've said before, the continued implementation of our optimization strategy, particularly the disposal of non-core assets, is expected to result in more efficient operating structures, rights basis, and ultimately a stronger balance sheet. Beyond disposals, we are actively driving operational improvements including working to secure lease renewals early, actively reducing vacancies, and continuing to optimize cost structures. Taken together, these initiatives are expected to contribute positively and sustainably to financial performance.
Our approach is clear, we will manage the business as non-core and core assets going forward, being aggressive on the non-core in terms of disposals and reducing vacancies in our core portfolio. Through disciplined execution and continuous improvement we will drive long-term growth, ensure tenant satisfaction, and maintain a robust financial foundation, ultimately creating value for shareholders. I know the big question on everyone's mind is when will we return to distributions? We have a remaining targeted disposal amount of ZAR 1.3 billion and when we reach the ZAR 650 million mark disposal we should see significant savings in terms of interest payments. We believe we should then be in a position to commence with distribution subject to alignment with our lenders. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. This then concludes our presentation and I now open the floor for questions.
Thank you very much Bongi and Fikile for that detailed presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please remember to send through your questions by clicking on the tab on the top left hand side of your screen to kick off. Thank you very much. Trinity Ngobeni from Anchor Stockbrokers who sent through two questions. The first one is can you please give more information regarding the Apologies, wrong question. Trinity is asking what is your forecasted impact on net asset value per share post non-core disposals and second question is could you please clarify the covenant ICR? How do your lenders define this metric? Is the Delta's ability to cover gross interest expense with cash from operations.
The focused NAV post the disposal, it depends how those disposals are executed. To the extent that we've been tolerant of or accepted discounts, those discounts will certainly impact the NAV. I haven't, we haven't at this point done an exercise of actually saying assuming we are discounting at 15% what does it mean, assuming we sell at market, but if of course we sell at market the NAV will remain the same. That question, I'm happy to revert to Mr. Ngobeni on that. The covenant, we're talking about covenant LTV or, yeah, covenant LTV, which was around ICR. No, I'm coming to you, they talk about two, covenant LTV, covenant ICR, which is basically the extent to which the operating income is able to cover the interest. That's basically that.
Now the banks have indicated lately to say that to the extent that ICR is improving, they then end up with a degree of comfort around our ability to service their debt and that would lead to them treating their account differently. For example, we meet with banks every month. If in future the position may be that we meet the bank and say once in six months, even at some point when we would be engaging with them around distribution, even though specifically in the loan agreements distribution can't be done unless they've been okayed by them. It will pave the way to that.
Fantastic. Thank you very much for that, Fikile. Mr. Junior Smith, a private investor, is asking can you please give more information on the disposal plan? Will you do more auctions and what is the general time frame that you expect to be selling out all of the non-core assets in the portfolio?
Thank you very much for that question. We have taken a decision with the board that there will be no more auctions. Unless, I suppose, there is a compelling reason at this point, we have realized the sort of value that we lose when we go on auction. For now, we will not be going to any more auctions. The time that we are looking at in terms of disposals, probably the cheeky answer is tomorrow. You know, as we get, we talk disposals on a daily basis. As we get offers, we meet, we discuss the offer. If the offer is compelling enough, we then agree, dispose of, and follow whatever process if need be.
Thank you very much, Bongi. John Candy, a private investor, is asking, what is your strategy with regards to your holdings in Grit? How much can you realistically realize from this investment and how easy is it to dispose of your holdings?
We hold the investment in Grit, which is 3%, 14.8 million shares, and the position has been all along is that we are disposing that investment. We are disappointed by the extent to which that valuation has declined. We said last year we were looking at ZAR 80 million. Today we are looking at that investment sitting at ZAR 34 million, whereas originally it is ZAR 120 million. That is what the original investment was. The position continues to be that of disposal. We need to take into account all market developments. I mean, to write off, of course, we have already sort of provided for that difference between ZAR 120 million and the ZAR 34 million. To just see that difference wither away, it is a difficult one to swallow. The strategy continues to be that of disposal.
Of course, any disposal has to follow our own governance in terms of approval by the board. Equally, Investec as a funder has to be on board as well.
I think if I could add quickly there as well as you asked your second part, how easy is it to dispose of it? If you looked at its trading, it's a very illiquid stock. We moved it from the Mauritian market to the LSE, the London Stock Exchange, hoping it will facilitate better trading, etc. It has not. It is not easy to dispose of, but it is and we are disposing of it.
Thanks. Thank you very much. Trevor Matthews is asking on the governance, legacy governance challenges that you picked up on earlier. He said he recently noticed on the Internet that the JSE had ruled that the previous Delta executives had been prohibited of serving on other boards. Does this mean that this matter is now final and closed or are there still pending actions? The second part to his question is what was the period involved in the original investigation?
On our end, we do not actively manage this case. It is actually run from the board. For us, I mean, yes, it is closed unless they want to take it further. Unless they want to take it further to the Constitutional Court or whatever. On our end the case is closed, but we cannot tell what is then going to happen. Your pronouncement in terms of the outcomes is correct.
Would you be able to disclose what the period under investigation was?
I suppose the period started. We started investigations in December 2020 and if you remember, we then withdrew our financials or when the auditors withdrew their opinion, we withdrew our financials and that was as a result of our forensic audit internally and thereafter with the compilation, I think in earnest. It probably started in late 2021 and it's been running since.
Thanks. Thank you very much. Bongi, follow up question from Trinity at Anchor Stock brokers. She's asking any chance of converting some of your properties to residential.
A quick answer to that is we don't have that mandate and I think with Fikile having gone through the numbers and how much of our operational cash actually goes to servicing of debt, we don't have firstly the cash flow and secondly we don't have the mandate or internal expertise to focus on that.
Just to add, so specifically in the loan agreements this aspect is actually prohibited, so would have to go through hoops in terms of engaging with a specific bank relative to any property that this exercise may identify. There is that limitation on the side of the financial institutions. Of course, there are these points that the CEO has just alluded to.
Thanks. Thank you very much. A question from Jeff Simpson, also private investor. He's asking you mentioned earlier that your first priority is to dispose of assets with an ICR of less than 1 times cover and then second tranche up to less than 1.3 times cover. He's asking are you still looking at reducing your geographic footprint and which provinces or nodes will you be targeting as the core part of the core portfolio?
The statement is correct. We are looking to dispose all the properties with the mentioned ICR and I think we sit here today being very proud that the last vacant property in Bloemfontein is going. In terms of our disposals and regional focus, we are still very much intent on disinvesting or getting out of Bloemfontein. Definitely. We are about to transfer a property in Eastern Cape, then we are out of Eastern Cape completely, so we will have a much smaller footprint in Johannesburg, Pretoria. But what is it again? But definitely Bloemfontein and Eastern Cape.
We out.
Thanks. Thank you very much. A follow up from Junior Smith. He's asking whether you've got a targeted weighted average lease expiry.
Yes, we do. Because also what we have ascertained is the fact that our funding somehow is linked to weighted average lease expiry. The target is actually 36. Our short term is to move from where we are to 24 months and ultimately get to 36 months. The environment has been responsive but not to the extent that we would have wanted it to be because some of our properties have now moved or transitioned to month and month which is not helping our way.
Thanks. Thank you very much for that, Fikile. Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions on the platform. We herewith conclude the presentation. Thank you so much for your time. Just a reminder that the recording will be uploaded to Delta's website later on today or you can access that through the same registration link that you used earlier. Many thanks for your time.