Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to 5paisa Capital Q1 FY 2023 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand over the floor to the management. Thank you, and over to you.
Very good afternoon, everyone. Myself, Prakarsh Gagdani, I'm the CEO and the whole-time director at 5paisa Capital Limited. I am joined by my colleague, our CFO, Mr. Gaurav Munjal. On behalf of Gaurav, myself, and the management team, I welcome you all for the first investor conference for the first quarter of FY 2023. Friends, we entered this quarter and we saw that the retail participation in this quarter was subdued. You are aware that in this quarter, the indices both Nifty, the mid-cap and also the small-cap corrected in the range of 15%-20% from their peak. It had an impact on the retail participation, especially on the retail cash market.
In this quarter, the retail cash market turnover on NSE almost fell down by 14% QoQ, which had an overall impact on the activity of clients in the NSE Cash segment, and also on the turnover and revenue. Now let me take few things from our results. First, our customer acquisition. In this quarter, we have acquired around 2.28 lakh customers, which takes our total customer base to almost 29.6 lakhs. Although compared to our previous quarter, our numbers are low. It was a conscious call that we took from last two quarters, and I've mentioned that in my previous calls also, to improve the quality of customer. From in the Q3 of last year, we acquired around 4.05 lakh customers. From there, last quarter, we acquired.
In the first quarter of this calendar year and the Q4 of last financial year, we acquired around 3.59 lakh customers. In this quarter, we acquired around 2.28 lakh customers. This was a part of our conscious initiative to improve the quality of customers, especially when the overall market participation is subdued. Second is on the cost side. With improving of the customer quality, it also had an impact on the reduction of cost, though our customer acquisition cost increased from INR 768 in the last quarter to INR 895. This was broadly because the OpEx and the HR cost was fixed, and because the acquisition was down, it had a marginal impact on the increase in the cost.
The second part was on the marketing spend. Now, because we were looking at improving the quality in some of the paid quality paid category of the customers, the account acquisition cost was higher, which had an overall impact on the overall acquisition cost. Now, I would like to also assure that we are working towards reducing the customer acquisition cost, which was in the last quarter and you know there is also further scope of reducing that. We are taking effort, and we feel that the increase in the customer acquisition cost is a temporary blip. Coming to the business side, our total income dropped by 5% quarter-on-quarter. This is broadly because of the fall in the exchange turnover and the muted retail participation which we saw.
Having said that, we have been able to maintain our market share. Our cash market share stands at around 3%, which has been same for last two quarters. On the Derivative segment, we have seen a marginal improvement in our market share. From 3, we are now at 3.14% market share. Despite a bad market, our margin funding book was almost the same as against INR 322 crore for the previous quarter. We've closed last quarter at INR 316 crores. Our overall efforts on optimizing cost has seen a drop of the cost by 10% Q-on-Q basis, and which had a positive impact on our PBT.
Our PBT went up by 68%, and we have closed the last quarter with the highest, you know, PBT and also PAT. We also improved on our margins. Our PAT margins improved from 5%- 9% in this quarter. Talking about our product and technology, in the past we have informed that after our fundraise, we were investing in building infrastructure, investing in technology, hiring tech and digital department people. I would like to apprise that we have almost completed our investment and now incrementally there'll be less impact on the fixed cost in the product and infrastructure and on technology. But with this investment, we have got some rich dividend.
Our straight-through processing acquisition, it means that a customer opening an account through and through has improved to and touched 85%. So today, 85% of our customers are onboarded digitally without any intervention and are completing their account opening journey in one single go. Our further improvements in technology and, you know, product will see substantial improvement both in terms of customer experience and also a reduction in cost in coming quarters. Lastly, we will continue our focus on our growth, which is quality of customer acquisition, increasing in revenues, optimization in cost, and ultimately increase in profits. With this, I conclude my opening remarks and I open the floor for further question and answer. Moderator?
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad and wait for your turn to ask a question. If you would like to withdraw your request, you may do so by pressing star and one again. We will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. First question comes from Karthikeyan B K from Shrihas Advisors. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for the opportunity. You talk about quality of customers. Can you give us some parameters on which you assess the quality of customers and, therefore, how much of that is currently reflected in the numbers?
Sure. When we see quality of customer, typically the parameter that we see is the margin that a customer is getting in and what is our payback period. Overall, we maintain our payback period in the range of 8-10 months, but we dissect that into various sources through which we are acquiring accounts. Wherever we see that the payback period is you know getting more than the acceptable limit, we take an action in terms of the acquisition from that source. That's how we define the quality of customer. Wherever we see that the quality is not good, we change the source of that application of that acquisition.
When you say that your costs are higher because you had to pay for this acquisition, were these migrating from other client? How can you give some additional color on that aspect as well?
No. What I meant was that, you know, typically when the marketing costs, why this has gone up because there were some good quality sources through which we acquire customer, especially the paid media. You know, we do digital marketing on Google and on social media. Now, these are the channels where the quality of the customers are good, but then they come at a higher cost than our normal acquisition or even organic. That's why because, you know, of the some share increase of the paid, the overall cost has gone up.
Therefore, the outlook for your CAC should be, you know, say at least 895. Would it come down a bit? How should one think about it? Would you continue to invest in acquiring quality customers and therefore the CAC should be high? Or, is there a trajectory for that you can indicate?
Definitely we will continue to thrive for acquiring good quality customers. But I see that the acquisition cost will come down over our next 2-3 quarters because obviously on the HR and OpEx costs, we are taking steps to improve and bring down from, you know, INR 250, which is right now, to INR 196, which was there earlier, and even reduce it further. Even on the organic side, we are doing a lot of activities on the brand, on SEO and also partnerships, so that from there we get good quality customers and the acquisition cost is lower.
There are various steps that we are taking which I am confident that will bring down the acquisition cost, at the same time maintaining a good quality of customer.
Would you want to indicate a run rate for customer acquisition in terms of numbers? Or is that not something that you?
It will be difficult right now for me to put a number. Obviously the focus is on quality. You know, if we get you know, a good quality customer which even doubles the run rate, we'll definitely chase that.
Fair. Thanks for answering my questions. I'll get back in with you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Next question comes from Deepak Poddar, from Sapphire Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you very much, sir, for the opportunity. Sir, am I audible?
Yeah, absolutely. Please go ahead, Deepak.
Okay. Just wanted to understand now this quality of customer that you have mentioned. We have been maintaining earlier that QoQ, we are looking at 15%-20% customer growth, right? Now with this new focus, how basically this number is likely to change as we go forward?
As I was mentioning this to Kartikeyan also. See, the focus is definitely on quality. We have acquired 228,000 customers. If your question is if that number will fall down from here, the answer is no. You know, we have taken action. We understand that you know where the entire trajectory is moving. I don't see a downward trend from here. On the upside, it will be difficult for me to give a number. Obviously, the effort is to move quality and quantity both in the right direction. To say that what kind of number that we can look in terms of growth would be difficult to put a percentage or a number there.
No. Down from means from, there will be no degrowth. That's what you are on a QoQ basis in terms of your reported client levels, right? That's what you're saying.
Yes. We're saying that there won't be degrowth, but whether we will be able to, you know, improve the number in terms of quarter-on-quarter acquisition growth is something that I can't comment on this right now.
Okay. No, but it would be fair to assume that this number should come down, right? I mean, I don't want any range or sort, but directionally, this 15%-20% quarter-on-quarter customer growth directionally should come down.
Yes. Maybe for temporary for a quarter or so, yes.
We still maintain that our revenue should grow at a faster rate as compared to cost, thereby improving our profitability?
Yes. Yes.
Your cost-income ratio, if I see that excluding your variable cost in terms of client acquisition cost, it has increased quarter-on-quarter, right? Due to the base effect, right? From 55%- 57%. If I include only the employee cost and other fixed costs.
Yes, it is included. You know, as I have mentioned earlier also, because we had invested in hiring talent in the product and technology, and also we were upgrading our infrastructure. There were investments in you know software and allied costs. That is the reason you see temporary increase in the you know fixed cost to income ratio. Obviously that, the increase also attributable to a 5% revenue dip that we have seen quarter-to-quarter. The cost has increased a bit, but revenue has gone down. That's the reason you see a percentage you know increase in cost to income, fixed cost to income.
Understood. How do we see that ratio in next 3-4 quarters?
We are working on, you know, reducing the fixed cost to income ratio, and our efforts are towards, you know, reduction of this percentage. You know, we're working on it. I look forward to reduction in the fixed cost to the income ratio over next two to three quarters.
Reduction. I mean, some quantum, anything that you can quantify would be helpful. Like from 55%, are we targeting 40%-45%, or what range we are targeting?
Our ultimate target is to have a 50% fixed cost, 25% PBT ratio, and 25% variable. We are taking every step towards maintaining this ratio.
No, no. I logged the number. 50%.
50% fixed cost.
The fixed cost. Mm-hmm.
25% PBT ratio.
Mm-hmm.
25% variable cost. That contributes 100% of revenue.
Okay. I got it. I think that's it from my side. Thank you very much.
Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. I repeat. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. We are having a question from Sahaj Mittal from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Sir, my first question is on our commentary around our conscious strategy to slow down our customer acquisition run rate. I mean, is it a conscious strategy or is this because what we see is that the industry in itself is seeing a slowdown in the customer acquisition run rate. Active client market share has been pretty much stable over the past few months. Is this a company-driven strategy or this is being, you know, this is coming on the back of slowdown in the industry itself? Yeah, that was my first question. The second one was around the sharp decline in the other expenses in Q1.
What has led to this kind of a steep improvement in the other expenses? Yeah, these are my first two questions.
Yeah so, I would not say that we have slowed down on our customer acquisition. One, we are conscious of the fact that we have to acquire. This has been our stand always, that we believe in quality acquisition. Even in the past, wherever we saw that, you know, our payback periods are not matching, the quality of the customer is not good, we have retracted and corrected and moved ahead. Because at the end of the day, you acquire customers who are serious customers to trade. Now, obviously, you know, the industry is acquiring almost like 1.5-2 million customers get acquired in the industry every month. How much of that number is getting translated into turnover?
Because if you see the month-over-month, the biggest participation of retail typically happens in the Cash segment. Now, Cash segment turnover consistently for last few months is coming down, whereas the turnover on the Derivative side is going up. What it means that if there are people who are traders and these traders are consistently trading and participating in the market, but not every customer who's coming to the Cash segment is trading. Wherever we see that the quality of a customer is not genuine, we retract. It's not slowing down of acquisition. We want to be aggressive in acquisition, but not on a fictitious number. That is what our stand is.
Wherever we see that, we take a beat, then we correct that, and we move ahead. We try and improve the acquisition, and that's what you know, we will continue. You're right that in some sense, because the overall market participation and you know, attraction toward capital market is a bit muted, may have some impact on the acquisition, but not 100% impact of that.
Yeah. Now moving to the second question, Gaurav, Mr. Gaurav will answer that. Yeah.
There are some costs which is associated and directly connected with the customer acquisition, like CDSL cost, NSDL cost, which comes under the professional expense. As you can see that our customer acquisition fall from 3.59 lakh- 2.28 lakh, and hence, we can see the impact of approximately INR 1.5 crore in our professional expense, which is a part of other expense. Second, we have optimized some of the costs in the related to the IT cost. We can see approximately INR 1.2 crore fall in IT costs, which is a part of other expense. That's the total bifurcation of INR 3 crore.
This decline or improvement in the IT cost, is that fair to assume, or could we expect a rebound in this line?
No, I think it would be on a sustainable basis. There may be, you know, maybe a 5% increase, 5%-10% increase over the period of year, but broadly, you can assume that this is on a sustainable basis. You know, the kind of optimization that we had to do, you know, we are in the process of doing. I don't see a cost jumping again up very soon.
Right. One thing on our channels to acquire customers. You just broadly told us that paid media and social media are the channels where you are focusing. I mean, what is the payback period for the customers acquired through these channels?
See, we don't acquire just from the paid media. We acquire from multiple sources, which includes organic, you know, referrals, then we have our those digital tie-ups that we have done, the FinTech tie-ups and also the paid media. It's a combination of that. All put together, the payback period is in the range of around 8-10 months.
Which channels gives us the best payback period?
Organic, obviously, is the best channel.
Right. Obviously, I mean, other than organic, because in organic the customer acquisition cost is the lowest. I mean, apart from organic, which channel gives us the best payback period, and what is that?
Unfortunately, I won't be able to share, you know, the data of the channel-wise acquisition and the payback period.
Right. I mean, if you could just, I mean, name which channel is helping or would we be focusing on to get a better quality customer, which is helping us improve our revenue per customers?
Every channel has got its advantages and the strength. Be it our digital partnerships, our organic, our paid, and referrals, all the channels have, you know, good quality customers. Every channel has multiple, you know, layers, multiple people referring, multiple sources through which we get our organic traffic. There are various channels here. Broadly, all of them are good, but wherever we see that in a particular channel, if one particular subsource is not good, we take action. It will be difficult for me to say that, okay, fine, organic is better or paid is better, in paid X is better than Y. That is something it will be difficult for me to share.
Right. For the staff cost, could we expect a 10% growth on a YoY? I mean, is this the right way to look at it for FY 2023?
Broadly, it would be in the range of around 5%-10%. Even so, even if I, you know, take the cost increase through appraisals in the coming year, but yeah, it will be broadly in the range of 5%-10%.
All right. Last question was around, I mean, which customers are we targeting as in the investors or the traders? Because for us, obviously, traders are much more a revenue creator, so, yeah.
As far as our acquisition is concerned, we target both investors and traders. We have different products for investors. We have different products for traders. You know, for investors, we are focusing on you know, purchasing through baskets and, you know, pushing them towards going for mutual fund SIPs or going for ETFs. There are different products for them. For traders, you know, we have a host of you know, products. We have developed an API. We are in the process of building an entire you know, Derivative-based terminal, which will provide the information to customers, you know, for the traders, what they want.
Even on, we have done so many partnerships with the FinTech players who provide either research or some advisory or algos for traders. There are various products and services for both the category of customers, and we are targeting both of them. It's not.
Right.
Very specific to a particular type of customer base.
Out of 100 customers, say you acquire 100 customers, what would be the mix of traders to investors?
Typically, traders, you know, are almost in the range of around 20%-25%, and broadly the balance is towards investing.
Right. There's this one line item in our investor presentation in the revenue breakup, other operating income. What do we include here?
Other operating income is majorly pertaining to interest on fixed deposits. That, whatever in fixed deposit we have kept in exchange as a margin, that's pertaining, and we got interest on that.
Got it. The major investments which we have done in tech and infra, so that has gone as a part of CapEx or OpEx? Just to understand.
Broadly, the spends have gone into OpEx, and some percentage has also gone into CapEx. Broadly, mostly it is into OpEx.
Could you quantify the OpEx numbers pertaining to the investments which we have done on a forward quarterly run rate basis?
Actually, basically CapEx and OpEx is defined by the Ind AS. We go as per the accounting standard issued by ICAI. In this quarter, approximately INR 2 crore we have done in CapEx and in INR 12.2 crore is in revenue expenditure, which is a part of other expenses.
Got it. Thanks for answering all of my questions in detail.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir. Next question comes from Sumit Shankar from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Thank you for providing me the opportunity. I want to know the market share for cash, commodity and derivatives.
As I said, our cash market share is stable in Cash segment at 3% and Derivative segment is at 3.14%.
Okay. My another question is, regarding the turnover. You said that you mentioned that the cash turnover in the market is consistently reducing and, in turn, the derivatives turnover is increasing. You can say that the clients are moving towards the riskier instruments. Are they able to sustain? What is your take on this?
There is an impact on the upfront margin and the peak margin that was implemented in phased manner. After 100% implementation, typically the trading volumes have moved from Cash segment to Derivative segment, especially in the options part of it. People who are trading in Cash segment, now they have moved here. That's why you see that the cash market turnover has gone down and the predominant turnover of that is delivery volume. The trading volume has now moved to the Derivative side. Now, on the Derivative, definitely people are you know trading and there is an increased participation of retail in the Derivative segment. I have not seen how many people are into.
How many people make loss or they are making profit. I think there is a consistent phenomenon of a percentage of people who we acquire, over a period of time, they shift to Derivative segment and then they trade. Now, that trend is continuing. We are not seeing a decline or a very huge surge in the percentage of people who are trading in Derivative. That's a natural phenomenon, and I think that is here to stay.
Okay. Understood. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Next question comes from Mr. Amit from RoboCapital. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. My question was regarding the earlier discussion on PBT ratio of 25%. When do we expect to hit that number? Is it fair to say that we get there in, say, two, three quarters from here?
Yeah, thank you, Amit, for that question. As we said that, you know, our effort is towards moving from a 12% PBT margin to 25% PBT margin. It will be difficult that whether we are going to achieve that in, you know, next quarter or maybe two quarters from now. We are on that path. I'm sure in the next foreseeable future, we will be, you know, achieving our, you know, set target for ourselves. It can take two quarters, it can also take three to four quarters. We are very clear that the path is towards improving profitability, improving our margins.
Okay.
Further, can I just add.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Please, please go ahead.
No, please go ahead.
Mr. Amit, please go ahead.
I mean, I have another question. I'll wait and ask.
No, no, you can please go ahead with your question.
Okay. The other point was, which is related to, again, the PBT ratio. What is the total cost of acquiring a customer for this quarter, for example? Which including all costs, which is, you know, the advertisement costs, you know, the cost of people who are talking to customers to open their accounts. All costs put together, what would be your total number?
For this quarter, we have mentioned in the presentation the cost including everything is INR 895 for one customer. It was around INR 768 for last quarter. There is an increase of around INR 148.
Yeah. How to get the total number? Should I multiply that with the customer to get the total number? Is that
Absolutely.
Okay.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Okay, great. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. I repeat, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. We are having a question from Sarvesh Gupta from Maximal Capital. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. First question is.
How has your, since your, you know, for the digital customers, this pricing is on a per trade basis. I'm hoping that your mix is somewhat similar to the industry, given the high percentage of derivatives are. What will be your, you know, number of trades, per trading day? How has that sort of, been in this quarter, versus the previous quarter?
If I understand your question correctly, you're asking in terms of what is the total number of trades?
Yeah. I mean, your pricing is as per the trade, right? Number of-
Yes. Yes.
-trades.
Pricing is on a per order basis. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Right now we don't share that information. I won't be able to, you know, give out that number.
What is the percentage decline QoQ?
As I said, see, our brokerage, you know, income is down by around 4%. Broadly because it is the brokerage income is directly related to the number of orders. There's a 4% decline, and we can safely assume it's a 4% decline in the number of orders that we process.
Understood. Yeah. You know, like, because we of course had a market decline, so that is understandable that you would have seen some normalization. But at the same time, you know, as being a very small percentage market share, do you think that you know, in spite of the market slump, we could have sort of increased the revenues because of higher number of customers? Or is that not playing out as we want it?
See, if you look at our acquisition for the last two quarters, our acquisition was lesser as compared to, you know, the Q3 of last year. I mean, it will hypothetically, we can say that we could have increased just by acquisition, but what we have done is that we have seen that despite the number of acquisition being down, from 4 lakh- 2.2 lakh, but it is not impacting much on the revenue side of it. It very clearly means that we are focusing on acquiring good quality customer, which translates into revenue. And that is something that we are, you know, continuously working towards. How do we increase the revenue with a good quality acquisition and also increase the market share?
Right now because of the market, because of the market sentiment, you see cash market turnover being down, but the market share being maintained. On the Derivative side, we have actually improved. If you see in quarter-on-quarter, the Derivative turnover for exchange has gone up by broadly some 9.8%-10%, whereas our turnover has gone up by more than 11.5%, thereby increasing our market share from just 3%- 3.14%. If you actually see from a trading perspective, we have done better than the market.
I'm guessing that the number of orders per active client would have decreased by far more than 4%, right?
I won't be able to comment because it's a hypothetical, you know, assumption. As I said, that I won't be able to give the, you know, the number of orders processed.
Okay. Can you give the QoQ decrease in that, like percentage-wise?
It's a 4% decrease, as I said.
No, number of orders per active client.
I don't have it handy.
Okay.
We can, you know, do it later.
Understood. Now, coming on to your expenses side. You know, I could not fully understand the initial commentary on your technology spend, etc. You know, you were alluding that now going forward there may not be very high increase in that. We have already seen a significant dip, at least in the ad and marketing expense. How are you seeing costs going forward? I mean, is this the current base, like INR 23 crore-INR 24 crore? Is this going to be the base going forward, or it will further reduce because there was some announcement from earlier spending cycle on technology infrastructure, etc.?
Sure. See, broadly, if I divide the cost, you know, I will divide it in two, which is your fixed cost and your variable cost. Now, variable cost will directly be correlated to the acquisition that we do. Obviously that will keep fluctuating. We do improve on reducing the customer acquisition cost, so that will have a separate impact. On the fixed cost, I think it's safe to assume that the expenditure that we do on the fixed cost will from now on onwards incrementally not go up. Because as I said earlier also that we were investing in hiring, you know, talent in the product department, in technology department. We were also upgrading our infrastructure, so we invested in creating a data center and upgrading that.
That required an investment into technology both on the OpEx and the CapEx part. That is more or less, you know, done. On the fixed cost side, we will not see much increase from here on. It will stabilize and, but yes, variable cost is something that will obviously keep moving according to the acquisition that we do.
How much would be fixed cost approximately in the INR 35-odd crore?
If you take, you know, INR 895 into 228,000 customers, that's something variable cost. Rest everything is a fixed cost.
Okay, okay and t his quarter when we saw higher CAC despite much lower ad and marketing expense, what exactly explains that? Was it just because the number of customers which were acquired were too low or something else happened?
No. I explained that in the earlier part of my call. Basically, if you know, again, divide this customer acquisition cost into HR and OpEx increased from INR 196-INR 250. Broadly because my number of people who are there in that department and also the other OpEx cost is a fixed cost. Because the acquisition has gone down, this is showing to be, you know, going up. On the marketing side, obviously there are some, you know, good sources of paid channel which comes at a higher cost and, you know, that has had an impact on the marketing cost going up.
Having said that, we are working on optimizing on both, and we are confident that this acquisition cost was one time, you know, blip of going up and it will, you know, again come down in the subsequent quarters.
Understood. My final question is on your strategy wherein you said that we want to grow into higher quality customer. From a higher quality customer, from their perspective, you know, what will attract them to you versus, you know, there are so many other established players in both digital and non-digital space. You know, what exactly are we doing to differentiate ourselves to be able to attract those clients?
See, one is that obviously when we say high quality customer, it doesn't mean that we are looking at people who are very, very high-end traders and we are getting into that niche segment. I didn't mean that. I meant that a quality means that if I'm spending, you know, X amount of money to acquire a customer, how fast I am recovering the entire cost. If the recovery period is more, then we call it as a bad quality. If recovery period is less, we in our standards, then we say that the quality is good. Having said that, what do we do to differentiate? See, we are a product company and, you know, 100% of our turnover comes digitally. Of that, almost 80% comes through mobile.
The experience that we provide to our customers both, who are investors and also who are traders actually is the differentiating factor. You know, for example, just, you know, a few days back, we, you know, we launched a new version of our app. There are various, you know, features that we've added for traders for their simplicity. A better experience of the product will be actually the differentiating factor for, you know, for our customers.
Understood. Thank you, sir, and all the best.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. I repeat. If you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. We are having a question from Madhukar Ladha from Elara Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for taking my question. Most of my questions have been answered. I just wanted to know one thing and maybe I missed about what is your actual ADTV cash and derivatives ADTV for Q 1 and Q4 . Can you give me those two numbers?
You, can you repeat ADTV? You're saying average daily-
Yeah.
Turnover? ADTO?
Yes. Average daily turnover for cash and derivatives separately.
Yeah. For cash it was around INR 950 crores, which is, for this Q1, it is around INR 800 crores. For derivatives we were at around INR 1.2 lakh crore ADTO. For this quarter we are at INR 1.3 lakh crore ADTO.
Got it. That's it from my side. All the best.
Thank you. Moderator, we can take the last question and then we can close the call.
Thank you, sir. The last question for today comes from Prayas Singh from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Just had a quick question. Firstly, when you talk about quality of customers, you mentioned one of the parameters is the margin that they bring in. What is the kind of number that you look for to look for that?
Your voice was not clear, but I understand that you're talking about margin customers brings in, right?
Yeah. When you said that you're looking for quality of customer acquisition, you mentioned margin they bring was one of the parameters. What is the threshold limit that you're looking at?
As I was saying, see, obviously customers come with anywhere in the range of, you know, broadly around INR 15,000-INR 20,000 kind of a margin. We don't look the quality of customer in that way. As I said that the quality of customer will look in terms of how fast the payback period is. I might come with INR 1 lakh rupee margin, but I might just put one trade of INR 1 lakh rupees and, then, you know, stop trading. Though the customer quality, the customer profile is good, but the payback period is not good. When we look at quality, it is typically from the payback period and not from the margin perspective.
Perfect. Secondly, could you give a break-up between brokerage revenues, FNO and cash?
Broadly, it is 60% of our revenues today come from around derivatives and around 40% from cash, which includes both intraday and delivery.
Okay. This would have been a similar scale year on year or it could have been more.
Sorry to interrupt, sir.
I think your voice is not very clear.
Is it better?
Can you please speak little louder, sir?
Is this better?
Yeah, please go ahead.
Please go ahead.
Yes. I was asking the 60/40 mix that you spoke about for in Q1.
Yeah.
How different would that been in, say, Q1 of last year?
It was broadly, you know, around 55%/45%, which has now moved to around 60%/62%. That small percentage movement here.
Okay. My final question is on your cross-sell and your cross-sell opportunity. That revenue also has come off in this quarter.
Yeah.
I understand, you know, insurance sales would have come down, but why should it drop by such a large number?
See, our cross-sell revenue is a combination of, you know, all the income which it is to our subscription income, our mutual funds, you know, the gold, digital gold, insurance. There has been a reduction in, you know, because of the market scenario. There has been a reduction in, you know, all. Obviously, cross-sell, one of our biggest product in cross-sell is our subscription income. And again, that is, you know, tied directly to market. That's the reason you see that from, you know, INR 5.93 crore, it is now around INR 5.1 crore. There is a, you know, INR 75 lakh drop there.
You expect this to bounce back with markets after a minute, right?
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Thank you. All the best.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir. I would now like to hand the floor to the management for the closing comments.
Thank you very much everyone for joining the call. I hope I was able to answer your questions. If you have any other questions, you can reach out to us at ir@5paisa.com, and our team would be more than happy to answer. Thank you very much and have a great day ahead.
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