Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to AGS Transact Technologies Limited Q4 FY 2024 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and may involve certain uncertainties and risks. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Ravi Goyal, Chairman and Managing Director, and Mr. Saurabh Lal, CFO. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. If you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr.
Ravi Goyal, Chairman and Managing Director. Thank you, and over to Mr. Goyal.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to thank each one of you for joining our Q4 and FY24 earnings call on behalf of AGS Transact Technologies Limited. Joining me on this call are Mr. Saurabh Lal, our CFO, Mr. Stanley Johnson and Mr. Vinayak Goyal, our Executive Directors, and Mr. Shailesh Shetty, the Managing Director of our wholly owned subsidiary, Securevalue India Limited. For your reference, we have uploaded the investor presentation and financial results on the corporate website and stock exchanges. FY24 was a year of resilience for the company. We successfully navigated a challenging macro environment and made significant strides in enhancing our business operations. As we look ahead, we are very optimistic about our business model and are committed to building on this momentum to drive sustained growth and value for our shareholders.
As one of the leaders in our segment, we have secured significant large contracts from leading public and private sector banks in India through various RFPs. We are on track to complete the execution of the SBI order for 1,350 ATMs under banking automation and 2,500 ATMs under the outsourcing model, which is worth INR 1,100 crore over seven years, and we will be completing it by H1 of FY 2025 and Q3 of FY 2025, respectively. Key driver for our growth outlook is the digital payments business. We anticipate a promising FY 2025, with several exciting new launches in the pipeline now. Before I continue, let me take a minute to explain our digital payments business. The company offers a unique digital payment ecosystem, Ongo, designed to shift payments from a service to a convenience for corporates, merchants, and consumers.
Built over a period of seven years by leveraging AGS world-class payment tech infrastructure, Ongo comprises of a secure, agile, and scalable digital platform, providing merchant acquiring and issuance services. Sorry. As a non-bank prepaid prepaid payment instrument, Ongo also offers dedicated open loop prepaid solution for consumers. Currently, AGS digital payment business contributes about 20% of the revenue of payment solution business segment. It is focused on three key growth areas. First, the National Common Mobility Card, or NCMC, launched by the Government of India under the vision of One Nation, One Card. These are open loop prepaid cards backed by the RuPay platform, which can be used to make online and offline payments, including multipurpose, such as bus, retail, fuel, toll, and parking. As of today, more than 47,500 NCMC cards have been issued for Bangalore Metro Rail Corporation.
We are in process of exploring similar opportunities with other metro railways in the country. Second, the open loop, co-branded prepaid cards in collaboration with leading brands. These prepaid cards are compatible with all RuPay acceptance points across India and a convenient solution for mitigating growing online frauds. We are working towards integrating more features on the Ongo PTS platform to provide greater convenience to the users. Further, we believe the solution has the potential to transform expense management for corporates. Third, is the first of its kind, the open loop contactless fueling solution for our Ongo platform, pilot tested at select fuel outlets of a leading OMC. This solution has onboarded over 1,000 fleet vehicles, with plans for a nationwide rollout. The potential market for fuel, fleet fueling alone is estimated at over INR 160,000 crore annually.
Overall, we are developing an asset-light digital business model focused on expanding our UPI infrastructure and leveraging our digital payment ecosystem. Ongo, through strategic collaborations across the FMCG, mobility, and fueling sectors, among others, to drive innovation and growth. This segment will contribute substantially to our profits in next three years. The sustained growth in cash in circulation, reaching approximately INR 3,515,000 crore, alongside the exponential rise in digital payments across channels, underscores the increasing importance of an omni-channel payment systems in India. The recent initiatives by the RBI, such as enabling third-party apps for UPI payments via PPI wallets and rolling out CBDC interoperability with UPI, reaffirms this trend. Furthermore, the rapid expansion of the bank branch network and the widespread adoption of cash recycler machines are expected to further drive growth of in AGS Business' core cash payments business.
We are also actively working to further expand this segment through multiple contract renegotiation and improved re-rates currently in pipeline. Now, I will take you through updates on our key business segments. For our cash management services offered through our wholly owned subsidiary, Securevalue India, we will continue to focus on improving our overall efficiencies and revenue margins through route optimization and cost reductions. During FY24, we started scaling down various low margin and capital-intensive businesses with a focus on maximizing revenue and cost reduction. This process has come to completion, having an overall revenue impact of approximately INR 2,200 crore to date. Further, the share of revenue from service to overall revenue has increased to more than 90%. Over the past few years, India's payment ecosystem has witnessed a unique synergy.
The growth of digital ecosystem in India has been driven by a number of factors, including the government's push towards digitalization. The government, in collaboration with RBI, has proposed initiatives such as enabling UPI for cash deposit facility, UPI access for prepaid instruments through third-party apps, offline payments in UPI to increase the speed of small value transactions on UPI, expanding the scope and reach of e-RUPI vouchers, linking rupee credit cards to UPI, interoperable cardless withdrawal, popularly called as ICCW at ATM to boost the digital payments industry in India. In line with the key initiatives undertaken and the growth landscape in the industry, the company is strategically focusing on increasing the revenue contribution from the digital payment solution segment by utilizing its core expertise, leveraging its PPI license, and strengthening our control by leveraging the large customer base created over the years.
The ATM outsourcing and cash management business, which is our core business, works on a fixed or transaction fee basis and contributes to nearly 67% of our consolidated business. The tenure of the contracts in this segment is between 5-8 years, which helps us in generating recurring revenues on a year-to-year basis. We are in the process of renegotiating contracts and service agreements with the clients, shifting our focus from a pure transaction fee-based business model to a mixed model of fixed fee and transaction fee, in addition to revisions in the contract prices. The ATMs outsourcing business complements our cash management business, managed under our own, wholly owned subsidiary, Securevalue India. The revenue contribution in this segment is approximately 14%.
Securevalue services to more than 38,400 ATMs and CRMs, and accounts for 47 vaults and 400+ COCO locations. We have about 9,000 pickup and doorstep banking points, and a network of 2,300+ Securevalue cash vans across 1,800 cities and towns. During the year, we completed the deployment of 270 dedicated cash vans of order value INR 250 crore. We are also focusing on doorstep banking business, which is a retail cash pickup and cash deployment. Now, I would request Saurabh, the CFO of AGS Transact Technologies, to share the financial highlights of Q4 and FY 2024. Saurabh, over to you.
Thank you, Ravi. Good afternoon, everyone. Now, allow me to take you through the financial performance of the company for Q4 and FY 2024. In Q4 of FY 2024, the total income of the group stood at INR 3,568 million, versus INR 4,369 million in Q4 of FY 2023. Talking about the EBITDA number, in Q4 of FY 2024, the adjusted EBITDA margin stood at 26%, versus 24% in the Q3 of FY 2024. Our adjusted EBITDA stood at INR 934 million in Q4 of FY 2024, and INR 913 million in Q3 of FY 2024, and INR 1,231 million in Q4 of FY 2023. The adjusted EBITDA margin for Q4 of FY 2024, oh, sorry, for Q4 of 2023 stood at 28.3%.
From a profit after tax perspective, we recorded a loss of INR 34 million, as against the loss of INR 154 million in Q4 of FY 2023. Coming to the full year number of the group, the total income in FY 2024 stood at INR 15,088 million, versus INR 17,075 million in FY 2023. The profit after tax showed a loss of INR 800 million in FY 2024, as compared to profit of INR 317 million in FY 2023. There has been a decline in revenue in the period, as we have scaled down other automation and other businesses and product businesses, as we have told earlier also. Going forward, we anticipate an increase in revenue, both from existing and new customers, with the new contracts in hand and certain contracts in the pipeline.
As Ravi mentioned, we are also in process of renegotiating some of our key contracts with the customers as well. We have provided approximately INR 100 crore in FY 2024 on account of certain delays in payments by various customers due to pending reconciliations and other deductions. We as a company, along with the team, business team and everyone, are working with the customers to reconcile and recover the same as well. During the year, our operational cash flow generation remained healthy. We recorded an increase in net cash flow generation from operating activities to INR 3,492 million versus INR 2,493 million in FY 2023. We have also reduced our debt, and the total net debt has come down from INR 6,769 million in FY 2023 to INR 5,707 million in FY 2024.
Just to give you a quick update on our subsidiaries' full year performance. Securevalue India Limited, which is into cash business, reported a top line of INR 4,456 million, including AGS on a gross level, with an EBITDA margin of 16.5%. Its non-AGS business, which is a business coming from the customer outside the AGS network, is close to 48%. ITSL, our digital payment subsidiary, recorded a top line of INR 1,763 million, with an EBITDA margin of 8.6%. GTSL, our foreign subsidiary, generated a revenue of INR 754 million in INR terms, with an EBITDA margin of 25.3%. With this, we conclude our presentation and open the floor for further discussion. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We'll now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the questions are assembled. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. First question is from Sanjay Kapoor, from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Namaste, team, and thank you for the opportunity. Sir, firstly, if you could explain our business model, wherein we have to book loss on loss allowances on trade receivables to the tune of INR 116 crore for the current fiscal. If you could just explain the nature and what are the few challenges that needs to be followed in order to revert the same?
Sure. Thank you for this slide. With respect to loss allowances, this is a total allowance of around INR 116 crore, which we have taken into the financials FY 2024 over a period of various quarters, sir. So we have taken certain provision in quarter two, then we have got certain recovery, and then to net provision in quarter three, and similarly, we have done certain provision in quarter four also, sir. So these provisions are basically for certain receivables, which are as per the normal accounting guidelines and as per the implementation of ECL guidelines by the Indian Accounting Standards, are delayed and beyond the normal cycle of the collection, sir. Since these payments are getting delayed, though there are communications and conversations are happening between business and the banks and the customers on a regular basis for recovery of those amounts.
But as these amounts are getting delayed beyond the normal timeline, we have started providing the provisioning and the allowance and write-offs of these amounts in the balance sheet. So since these are items which we think that they are exceptional nature, because these collections, these amounts are expected to recover over a period of time. We have shown it as a separate line item for proper interpretation, that on a sustainable basis, the company EBITDA margins are much higher as compared to what has been recorded in the financials after taking into that adjustment.
My question is more towards the nature. We are into the digital part of the payment system, and also we are dealing with, I think so, B2B also and B2C also, as a percentage of our total revenue profile. So what can lead to the these delinquencies firstly, wherein we are left with receivables, or just if you could explain the nature of our business, wherein we are left with these amounts being receivable. If you could explain what leads firstly to this and, and again, I'm repeating, we are into the B2B business, I think on a higher side. So if you could just explain, if kindly more in detail.
Sure, sir. So, sir, as you said, we are into more into B2B business. We deal with various customers, from the banks and everyone, and those customers are, basically takes, give payments to us. Certain, there are certain disputes that arises on those payments, and when these dispute get arises, so there are payments which are on hold. So there is a process of detailed reconciliations that happens between us and the banks for those amounts to be recovery, and that reconciliation takes some time from, from business perspective, sir. Other than that, sir, we have a business which is, with this business, basically, non-distance business, and this is not B2C business, and we are purely into, right now, into B2 B business with the banks and other customers.
For B2C business, sir, as we, Ravi also mentioned that we are getting into various forms of issuance business, like prepaid card and everything. There we'll definitely have a B2C customer for a period of time, sir. As I said, sir, just coming to your point of these kind of reductions, these are basically reconciliations, sir. In case you requesting for a more detailed information, we can ask our I don't see definitely reach out to you, and we can give you more details, sir, what are the nature and what are the details of these reductions, sir.
Okay, and next point is on the depreciation and the amortization expenses.
Okay, sir.
When we look at our growth and capex effect, current asset of property plant is around INR 310 crore.
Okay.
On a standalone basis, wherein we are booking, depreciation and amortization to the tune of INR 158 crore. So if you could just explain the nature and the rate at which the same are being depreciated, just to understand what goes into this?
Sure. So, sir, just as you referred to this as a standalone financial, if you see, there are two types of assets in our books. One is this property plant equipment, which is around INR 310 crore. Then there are another form of assets in our balance sheet, which is called ROU assets, sir. There is a ROU asset also sitting in our financials, which is another INR 200 crore approximately, sir. So total FA book of the company, including ROU and PPE, is around INR 500 crore, sir. And the depreciation that you see in the P&L is a mix of both the, one is the depreciation on the tangible assets, which is in PPE, and the other depreciation has been charged on the ROU assets also, which is again sitting in part of the PPE book, sir.
Do you have any follow-up question?
I joined the queue. No, it's okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from Ronak from Jain Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, hi, Ravi and team. So I heard your comments on renegotiating these agreements where you say that, you know, you would want to move from a transaction fee to a more fixed transaction model. First of all, I just want to get your sense, you know, your thought process. How are you looking at these renegotiations? Does the fixed fee ideally cover the entire OpEx, at least, or maybe the fixed fee covers more than the OpEx, so you do have some positive ROC for ATM, and then the variable pulls up ROC higher to say, you know, 15%-20% or whatever ROC is added for ATM?
I think sort of this side. So, making side, definitely, but we always thought that give us banks, the large banks, which is we have in our portfolio. We always used to have a normal contract, which are, transaction fee-based contract or fully transaction fee-based contract. But we have seen over a period of time is that definitely there are certain fixed costs, which are definitely required to be covered in the contract, so that we should take care of either the inflation that is, that is going to hit us for a period of time, or there is a, there is a possibility that over a period of time, the asset is not generating the expected number of transactions, and we have built the contract for a period of time.
So now, as, as we said, and as Ravi also mentioned, we are trying to get into hybrid-based contract with them, which, which covers the mix of both these sides. Like, just to give you background, that day we have various types of ATMs in our portfolio. One is called on-site ATMs, and then we have off-site ATMs. Today, we have additional ATMs, and we have owners. And so we are trying to mix it in such a way that we should able to cover up maximum cost wherever we have an ATM, ATM installed at the branch level, where most of the customers of the branch comes and not other customer comes. So we wanted certain bank, okay, if you can do it with fixed pricing, then it will help for us, and then we take some upside from them.
So definitely, since we are saying it's not purely fixed, it's a hybrid, we there is always a component of transactions benefit that will accrue to us. Automatically, as the transaction goes up, we will definitely keep on seeing higher ROCs coming on that amount. But yes, on the other bottom side, that it helps us to protect our certain costs and certain losses. All costs are definitely not covered, but I think substantial portion of costs are being covered on a portfolio basis. But on certain ATMs, we are ensuring that each and every cost gets covered, and we should get additional revenue in the form of transac- fixed fee revenue.
So hypothetically, assuming there are no transactions at all, the fixed costs will not... Sorry, the fixed fee will not cover the entire OpEx, but it will reduce any losses that may come from an ATM. That's the core takeaway. I understand the fixed fee will cover for the OpEx, so you may have 0% ROC, correct?
This, kindly, I'll answer this across. So yes, what you rightly said, if it is a zero transaction ATM across, it will not cover the whole amount as a fixed fee, but a majority of them would get covered across. That's how we have remodeled that.
Sorry, just, just a follow-up. Of your current owned ATMs, are all the ATMs on this variable transaction model right now?
I think there are few contracts with few large banks that we have in our portfolio, which are on a transaction fee-based model, and other banks are on fixed fee-based model.
But, are the fixed fee-based model, like, at least something like 30% of ATM base right now, or is it a smaller number?
So it's, I would say approximately it is around 35% of the revenue comes from a fixed fee contract.
Okay. Got it. Second, I mean, not pertaining just to you, but, basically, just I want to get your thoughts on, you know, is the transaction link model flawed in the current environment? You know, where ATM deployments would perhaps be increasingly in suburban or smaller markets, where footfalls may generally be lower. Hence, even your plans, you know, like, reprice contracts with a fixed versus a hybrid, model perspective.
So what we are seeing across is except metros, your semi-rural and rural, the deployments are happening. The transactions level are pretty good enough across, except in the metros, where you have an impact of some of digital on it. But overall, across on the semi-urban and rural, it has a good set of transactions. So strictly, so when you get into a hybrid model, it balances off across the metros and the semi-urban parts.
Okay, okay. And just, I mean, would a hike in interchange fee make the business more viable whenever, whenever it comes? And if you've heard anything on this, interchange fee hike?
So there are talks going on across in various forums on the hike of the interchange. Definitely, when the interchange increase, the deployment increase and the deployment across by banks would always, always increase. So, we have seen that when it decreased 3-4 years back, deployment rose across. Same way, we would see it once it goes up again.
All right, got you. Just one last question, I just forgot to ask you. When you are, repricing your contract with your existing, clients who were on the variable model, I just want to understand, do the banks also... Are the banks pushing back, like, they would not prefer the fixed fee model per se? Or is it that they are too, I mean, the number of players in this space are getting less, so banks don't have a choice, so they are agreeing to the hybrid model? Just want to get a sense on that.
So the answer is both. Both you answered that across correctly. The players getting reduced across, and they are seeing that increasingly where they are, metros are losing transaction, it becomes very difficult to manage the cost across. So banks are also aligned and tuned to it towards this hybrid model.
Okay, thank you very much, sir. Wish you guys all the best.
Thank you. Requesting all the participants kindly restrict to two questions per participant and join the queue again for a follow-up question. Next question is from the line of Ravi Shah from Opal Securities Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Am I audible, sir?
Yeah, you are audible.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. So on slide five, you have mentioned about strategic initiatives by the company. So when will the implementation begin, and how will this drive the future growth of our business?
Ravi, with respect to the various initiatives, so there are various initiatives which is already, already has been made live. Like, as we said, we have already initiated the Bangalore Metro card, where almost 47,500+ NCMC cards have been issued. So that, that, that project is already live. Now, with the new regulatory guidelines, which has come from the regulator, where the zero KYC NCMC-based card can be issued. So we and metros are, people are working together to ensure that immediate rollout of those cards, and we're targeting to issue more than 2 million cards, approximately, in, in, in the next two years timeline. The other one is the Ongo fuel, which is again, we are running a pilot right now.
Right now, the pilot is at the Mumbai level and everything, and I'm sure as we move forward, this pilot will go out on all India basis, and then it'll become a full-fledged rollout. Another one is the issuance of prepaid card with one of the FMCG group. Again, that is alignment. I think as Ravi also mentioned in the on the call, I think this year, I think all these three projects will go live on a full-scale basis. Like, NCMC has already go live. So definitely, maybe quarter two and quarter three, we'll be able to share with you the more substantial growth in the numbers perspective and on the... And similarly, growth in the revenues and the bottom line.
Other two projects, specifically FMCG and the Ongo fuel, and there are, there are other things which are in pipeline, which we may have not been able to disclose today. Those things also will get, get activated and will go live as, as we move forward.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much for the detailed answer. My second question would be about the demerger. What is the strategy behind this, and how is this going to help our company overall going forward?
Yeah, sure, Ravi. So, Ravi, with respect to this demerger, Ravi, just a second. With respect to the demerger that we have done with the ITSL as a company, which is basically our wholly-owned subsidiary. So what has happened is that, see, as Ravi also mentioned, strategically, we are focusing more on the issuance of card businesses, which is primarily linked to the issuance of card through NCMC, issuance of card through Ongo fuel, issuance of card through various retail trials that we're doing with FMCG groups and everything. So and this all the issuance is happening through the subsidiary, ITSL, which has been given a PPI license by the RBI. That license helps us to grow that business.
Other businesses which ITSL is doing mostly on the acquiring side, which is a POS acquiring business, where we're deploying this merchant POS and everything, which is very well linked with various common customers, which AGS also has, whether like FMCG market, whether you talk about the various other corporate, whether you talk about the prime. So we thought that it will be very synergistic for us, like, though we wanted to create an independent entity, but now we realize that there is a possibility that when we do these businesses together, so when we get a contract from oil marketing company, we get a complete automation solution for them, which is a payment, including payments also. So we were basically contracting AGS and doing the contracting in ITSL.
So with this, I think we're now targeting that, let's merge all these businesses in AGS. Let's try to avoid the overlapping roles happening on the both sides, both on the sales and operations and other fronts, and put more immediate attention or I would say detailed focus only on the ITSL on the issuance side and everything. And over a period of time, definitely it will bring synergies in the form of, as I said, overlapping functions, common functions, support functions, and other execution strategies and faster executions of the rollout of both the AGS and ITSL business, which is happening even today. But once we have a merger together, they will do proper rollouts and allocation and deliveries together.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Thank you. Thank you, Ravi.
Thank you. Participant, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Nitin Gandhi from InvesQ Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the presentation. I would like to assess management's view for recovery of the contract for INR 11.16 crore, or in the time frame within which you expect this to be? And going forward, what kind of expectations for fiscal 2025, 2026 are still pending, which we expect and provided for? If they, what would you do? Thank you.
So, Nitin, from the recovery policy, as I said, these are long-pending reconciliations, and these are continuous process happening with, happening in the discussion with the banks. We and business and operations teams are continuously engaging with the banks and other partners and other people in the system. These discussions happen at various level, HO level, LSO levels, branch level, regional level. So we are confident that there will definitely be a recovery. Time frame definitely is a very, very difficult number to put it on exactly, but I'm sure we will see a good recovery happening in the near future, which is maybe in quarter two, three, and four. Definitely, we'll see some recovery. From a going forward basis, I don't...
I think this reconciliation got corrected over a period of time because of certain processes followed by both the sides, us or the customers also. Now, those processes have been automated to a great extent, and we believe that with the current processes and current reconciliation processes, delay will not be as such or the numbers may not be as big as we have provided in the last financial year.
Was there any incident in Q4 which made the provision?
Sorry?
Was there any incident or reconciliation issue which resulted in provision for current quarter?
Nitin, as I said, this is, this is a continuous process of reconciliations. The number of ATMs that we are in, managing with the banks, reconciling on a daily basis, and it's a, it's a continuous operational job. But major reconciliations generally happens automated systems and softwares now, so we don't see a major difference coming in, in, in the future for this quarter or last quarter and everything. But yes, there are certain overhangs or over, hold amounts which are pending over reconciliations with various customers, which got delayed, or I would say got delayed beyond the normal timelines. Still, as we said, we are very much confident of recovering certain amounts from this amount that we have written off. But as, as we move forward, I think the process is quite automated.
It's very difficult to check it out, whether it's zero and everything, but I think most important is that we, we have a clear visibility and clear roadmap with us, that we see that these reconciliations should not pile up over a period of time. And we have a right mechanism, systems in place, so that we can, we can kill it before it become too big for us.
Are there any insurances available against such kind of practices worldwide, or how does it work overseas?
So from an insurance perspective, Nitin, we have insured ourselves from all four types of frauds, whether it's frauds of cash, theft or everything, or cash in ATMs or cash in transit, including these cyber frauds also. So if it comes out to be that the kind of fraud which has been debited to us falls into any of this category, whether it's a hack-based fraud, like a cyber fraud or it's a cash in ATM, it got stolen or the cash in transit, those types of losses are covered. But specifically, reconciliations with the customers and everything, which is probably the major reason of this fraud, are not covered.
Okay, all the best. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Nishi Shah from RH Invest. Please go ahead. Nishi, may I request you to unmute and go ahead with your question, please? Wait, no response. We move on to the next participant. Follow-up question is from the line of Sachin Kapoor, from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity again. Sir, when we look at your other expenses line item for the quarter and for the year as a whole, I'm now referring to the consumer part, that constitute a large sum of rupees, INR 717 crore on your revenue profile of INR 1,417 crore. So if you could just explain to us, what are the key components, and I, that would suffice.
Sure, sir. So if you see, sir, the presentation of the financial statement has two, three heads under which we can put all the expenses. One is the cost with respect to the maintenance. Second is the employee benefit expenses, and then there's a cost which is basically cover the expenses which are more than 10% or other expenses. So, sir, as we said, that our largest business, as Ravi also mentioned, is the ATM outsourcing business. So all the costs related to ATM outsourcing business, which is related to various cash management costs, various consumer cost, various payroll cost, various connectivity cost, AMC cost, maintenance cost, actually I've covered consumers, ensuring any other costs related to other, other companies, maybe transportation, maybe travel costs, maybe not travel, transportation, logistics costs, connectivity costs.
So all these costs which are related to my business, actually, is part of the major head of the other expenses. Plus, all the other SG&A of the company, general administration expense, are also part of this head, other expenses.
In percentage terms, that's a very sizable amount, means INR 717 on a top line of INR 1,470 means 48% of your total costs or your revenues are in the form of only expenses. Just as an investor or a shareholder point of view, just to understand what is left for us as investors to understand and participate in the model, wherein 48% of your revenue generation is spent on other expenses. A good part goes into your employee expenses, then there are issues with receivable also. And then you are in your presentation deck, and you get to the second five years, you will be repaying back your debt.
But when we look at your previous five years, you have been maintaining the same debt level over, over the same period. Now, going up by INR 100 crore and getting reduced by INR 100 crore, it just has remained in that time. For me as an investor, I'm unable to make a point of case of investment, looking at the profile of your revenue and the expenses and what is left for investors to take home post the numbers. You are doing a good job in terms of digitalization and participating in the economy in whatever possible way. But for investing community, this could remain unexplained, at least from my point of view.
Sure, sir. Sir, just to allow me to explain more in detail, sir, now, since this is a presentations of expenses as per the schedule two and schedule three of the company, like, this is how we do. When we share the detailed financial statement with the shareholders, with other investors and the outside community, you will get the complete schedule of all the other expenses which are part of this, this expense. There is a simple note that covers every head of the expense. So as I said, sir, just to give you background, sir, as I said, ours is a service company. We don't have a product business and everything. So you see on the product side, the costs are very limited. So most of the costs that we incurred in this is related to the service of the business.
So for example, when I end site start a new site or put a new ATM, there is a cost of rent that goes inside. I have to pay electricity bill for that site. I have to pay a custodian for that site. I have to take insurance of that site. I have to take connectivity of that site. I have to take other housekeeping maintenance of those sites. So that all these costs are part of that segment, and that is why this is going under the head other expenses. At this time, there is a detailed note that will be shared as soon as we release the final financial statement with covering all the notes and schedules for this purpose.
So even if we're taking into account all these expenses and everything, that is how we have to present it, that our EBITDA margin or adjusted EBITDA margin generated on the business is the way we request you to look at our numbers, sir. So since, as you said, we're a service company, most of our expenses will always come under the head, other expenses only, except for three heads, which is employee benefit expense, another is a change in inventories, and change in purchase and other raw materials, sir.
Right. Last point on the borrowing aspect.
Yeah.
If you look at you as a service company, as articulated by you, our long-term borrowing are to the tune of INR 453 crore. So if you could just explain then the nature of the same that leads us for long-term borrowing, and that too, also to the tune of INR 400 crore on top line of only INR 14 crore-15 crore. So what have you been building in terms of this large amount of borrowing into the revenue profile?
Yes, sir. So, sir, borrowings, as you said, sir, we have a large asset that we deploy on the balance sheet, sir, the ATMs that we deploy. So most of the loans that we have taken is in the form of accumulations of those receivables, or basically given a charge for those assets that we have created over a period of time, sir. So all these assets which we deploy on the site, like put an ATM, we put a UPS, we put a VSAT and everything. So all these, all these assets, as per the capital expenditure that we do.
Most of those capital expenditure have been funded through the borrowings only, sir, which is in the form of long-term borrowings, and that will get repaid over a period of time as per the time schedule that we have agreed with the financial institutions, sir.
Then, Mr. Ravi alluded to the fact that you will be, yes, in 4-5 years. Can you explain us the roadmap, taking into account the current business profile? What are the changes that will happen in the cash generation cycle that will lead us to repay all our debts, going ahead? And if you could give us the schedule also, when you are penciling in 5 years story of net debt to go to zero.
So, if you see from a debt perspective, I think Ravi also mentioned, sir, how our core business, which is ATM outsourcing, will continue to grow, like, continue like this. We have a plan to increase our other revenue streams and profitability from an asset-light model of business payments, sir, where Ravi also mentioned that we will install all this, cost, insurance business and everything, which will be, asset-light business, where we don't foresee any big debt that has to come to our balance sheet size and balance sheet business, sir. The debt schedule, as we said, mentioned, is approximately we have a balance security of around 3.5-4 years approximately trending with us, which will allow us to repay this debt and everything.
As we go and move forward, as our business revenue get transferred from normal ATM outsourcing business to more digital business, which is asset-light business, so automatically, that is what we wanted to cover, that we have a roadmap, so we should become debt-free in the next 4-5, 5 years time, time horizon. The ATM business will continue to generate this cash, and that cash will help us to repay the debt. As I said again, the future business that will continue in the form of non-asset-heavy business will definitely support us to not leverage the balance sheet again.
Uh, then?
Sorry, sir? Then automatically, as I said, we will grow more of the non-asset-heavy business automatically, and the existing cash flow is sufficient to repay the existing debt. So automatically, I think our horizon for next five years is to become debt-free on a full balance sheet basis. Hello? Are you there?
... Can you hear us? We do not respond. We move on to the next participant. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Ritesh Sen from Overclocking. Please go ahead.
Hi, thank you for the opportunity. So, will we see a normalized data in FY 25? You earlier in the call you said we will see this in future also. So, is it possible for you to quantify in terms of, like, how much will it be in terms of last year, 160 or may have been that lower than that?
Sorry, sorry, Ritesh, repeat the last one.
I’m saying, will we see a normalized return in FY25? Will we still take provision from the receivables this year also? And if yes, then what will be the quantum? More than last year, less than last year, where will it be?
So, Ritesh, I think the intention is that these are the old outstanding, which we're still working on to collect. But yes, since there is a time value of money which has got lost, or I would say implementation of various other regulatory guidelines requested us, required us to start providing for this provision. But as we speak, I think from a FY 2025 perspective or future perspective, we don't see such a large provision coming up in the balance sheet. And I think as a management, as a company, as a business, we're targeting that whatever is the normal EBITDA, which should be the actualized EBITDA for the company.
All right. How much growth do we anticipate actually coming through FY 2026?
So, from a business perspective, as we said, now we have scaled down many businesses in last two years. That is why you have seen this. There is a shrinking in the EBITDA margins also. Now, I think a lot of costs have been rationalized. I think from next year onwards, we have couple of contracts to deliver from an ATM outsourcing, like SL contract we have in hand, a couple of other contracts in pipeline. Plus, we have a digital strategy with us. I think we should, we're targeting a good growth in next one year. I think maybe quarter one and then quarter two will give us also more and more confidence and conviction to go ahead and deliver. And I think market will also be able to see that what kind of growth we are targeting.
It is very difficult to give you the exact number at this point of time.
All right. All right, no worries. Thanks for your answer.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Savi Jain from 2Point2 Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello, can you hear me?
Very sorry, your sound is very soft. Can you speak through the handset?
Is this better?
If you can come a little closer, please.
One second. Is this better?
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, my first question is on your, you know, receivable write-off. So is this because there was a disagreement on the service level expectation from your customer that you were not able to deliver on those standards, and therefore they are delaying the payments? Or was there some reconciliation issue in the, you know, in the cash itself, that was, you know, because the cash levels were different, within the entire ATM cash?
So, most of the amounts are of reconciliation nature only. Most of the amount, I'm not saying all the amount, but yes, most of the amounts that we have written off, taken up provisions and written off is of the reconciliation nature only.
There is an insurance on this, like, if you have, there is a potential amount due to theft or some, you know, whatever reason, so do you not get compensated by your insurance contract?
So, they definitely, as I said, the insurance covers each and every aspect of the cash, whether the cash is in the ATM, whether cash is in the transit, or whether the cash has got stolen or due to the cyber fraud or anything, all these forms are covered. But in case of specifically in reconciliations, definitely it becomes sometimes very difficult to give the documentation and to give us a supporting to justify that whether under which category this reconciliations falls. Basically, these reconciliations are generally a very, very small value in value-wise.
Because of the small value item, item-wise, it becomes practically impossible for us or to the customer to share the details with respect to those amounts, from where it has been taken out, what kind of fraud it has happened, and whether the customer was genuine or customer was ingenuine. But wherever we have been able to demonstrate to the bank. That is why we are saying, even though we have taken a provision and everything, we are confident that we're able to share those communications and confirmations, both from the customer perspective and both from the technical perspective, that this cash was returned back to the bank, and we have a right to reclaim this money from the customer bank.
Okay. And this is, what was this amount last year, like FY 2023?
FY 2023, this amount was approximately around INR 49 crore.
These are mostly with respect to, I mean, all of these issues occurred in this year itself, or there have been much earlier issues, but they have finally written them off right now?
So these, these are definitely, pending issues with the customers for long now. And since we were able to demonstrate certain collections, certain communications in the past, and there was a, trail available with us for the recoveries and everything, so we've been able to, take it to the next level. But yes, now since it has become too late for all of our management, for board and for the auditors as well, that it is getting too late, that there is a time value of money required in the ATMs, and, so sorry, in the financial statement, and since the money is not coming as, as early as, as, as fast as we're expecting, we have started, we have provided those provisions.
Okay. You said next year also it should be a similar amount?
No, no, no. It should not be, it should not be.
Okay. There will be some amount?
That should be, as I just answered, that it should be a normalized EBITDA. Our endeavor is to ensure that our adjusted EBITDA and actual EBITDA should fall in the same line. This should not be this line item.
Okay. And the second thing I just wanted to understand, see, there is another company, listed company, CMS, in the exact same business, but they have very different financial profile, EBITDA margin, cash flow, balance sheet. So being in the same business, how are—Is it that we have done lot of transaction-based contracts we have taken up, which is leading to losses because of decrease in ATM usage because of the digitalization that is happening? So those guys are doing more of fixed price contracts. Is that the reason that the financial profile of the same business is very different?
The comparison is not an apple to apple, because the other entity is more on the cash management business. It's not on the ATM outsourcing business. They do a lot of cash management business, and their volumes on cash management business and on their pickup points are all different metrics, which is not similar to what the ATM outsourcing is.
Just to add, if you compare, we have a subsidiary, Securevalue India, which is a standalone subsidiary. So that standalone subsidiary is similar to that business that CMS is also doing it. So those metrics are definitely... We can share with you those standalone financial statement of our subsidiary, Securevalue. That will help you to map the metrics more, more meaningfully, than, than comparing it with the consolidated financial of AGS.
In hindsight, do you think it was what was better to focus just on the cash logistics business and not on the ATM outsourcing business, given what has happened over the last few years?
So, I will put it this way: We are now getting in more on to hybrid contracts across and transaction-based contracts, so you will see much better revenue and all across from a fixed contracts coming across. Yes, we are also increasing our footprints on Securevalue and the cash management business, so you will see a scale-up across in Securevalue for ATM replenishment, for doorstep banking, for DCB, all across. So our focus is there and primarily more on hybrid contracts and growing up Securevalue.
Current contracts, which are already in force, there we can't do anything, right? We have to just, continue to execute them despite making losses on them.
No, no, no, no, no. No, it is not so. So there are current contracts which are getting renegotiated and which is moving into a hybrid form of contract.
But the banks and all, a lot of these are PSU banks. Do you think they will—I mean, they are willing to renegotiate?
Our mix is more on the private sector bank. Our PSU is majorly are fixed contracts, except State Bank of India. But if you see our mix, we are more on the private sector bank. On the public sector banks, our contracts are mostly on fixed basis.
So the interchange fee, you think after the elections, this can change? Is that a possibility?
We would wish it happened.
Do you have any indication from, like-
There are various bodies which are representing this across. We'll have to wait and watch. See, last time, it took almost 4-5 years for rate to revise. But, hopefully, I think it should happen much quickly, and we are all very hopeful that it should happen.
Sorry?
See, last time it took quite, quite a bit time for the rate revision. But this time, I think everyone has represented to RBI, and hopefully it should happen. But again, we are not sure when it would happen.
Okay. And, you know, are you seeing increase outsourcing by ATM? I think there's still some, a lot of ATMs which are still with the banks. So do you see those coming out for outsourcing in the next couple of year?
Yes, we are likely to see more, a good number of banks which have not outsourced it, coming out with RFPs on this model across.
Okay, great. Thank you, Vishwa.
Thank you.
Next question is from the line of Kapoor, from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir, I missed your debt, the kickoff debt number. So we can assume that this quarter numbers are that debt, the net debt at INR 6 for us, and it will be only on the declining trend going ahead?
So from a repayment perspective, definitely we are targeting and leverage to repay our debt as the repayments are coming up. But definitely as we said, that we have one project of State Bank of India, which we need to execute. So if there is a commitment between the cash flow, we may take some debt in the form of to fund that expenditure in the form of capital and working capital for State Bank of India, sir.
What is our current rating currently and when it is due?
Sir, our rating is A plus with CRISIL and India Rating both.
Okay, and our cost of funds, sir?
The cost of funds approximately in the range of around 10.5%-11%.
10.5-11. That is still okay.
The price, the cost of borrowing has increased in last one year, so by, I think, about 100 basis points.
Understood. Great. Thank you, sir, and wish everything's characterized with SG&A for, for all the follow-up. Thank you for all the elaborate answers.
Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I'll now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you all once again for joining us on this call. Before we sign out, I would like to quickly summarize our outlook for FY25. Our near-term objective is to grow and scale the digital business by building an open loop API infrastructure through the issuance of cards and wallets, and pivot from payment as a service to payment as a convenience through the ongoing card ecosystem. Also, a large part of the revenue comes from the service business, and all the service contracts are of long-term in nature, whether it is ATM outsourcing business or cash management business, or it is the AMC contracts for various assets. Going forward, we will see a good visibility of the revenue on a quarterly basis. I once again thank you, all of you. Thank you.
Thank you very much. On behalf of AGS Transact Technologies, we conclude this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.