Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q3 FY 2025 earnings conference call of Aptus Value Housing Finance India Limited, hosted by Dolat Capital Market Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Mona Khetan from Dolat Capital Market. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Alaric. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the earnings call of Aptus Value Housing Finance. To discuss its Q3 and nine-month FY 2025 performance, we have with us the senior management from Aptus to share industry and business updates. I would now like to hand over to Mr. Anandan for his opening comments. After this, we can take up the Q&A. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Mona. Ladies and gentlemen, good morning to all of you. I'm Anandan, Executive Chairman of the company. I welcome you all to this call to discuss the company performance for the quarter, nine months ended December 2024. I have with me Mr. P. Balaji, MD, Mr. C. N. Manoharan, ED and CBO, and Mr. John Vijayan, CFO. At the outset, I'm delighted to share that we have crossed certain key milestones in terms of loan crossing a INR 10,000 crore loan book, crossing 150,000 customers, and almost 300, just crossed 300 branches non-sequential. At Aptus, we believe in strong growth without losing focus on the quality of loan book and with financial metrics. Very happy to record that Aptus had a very good nine months of FY 2025, supported by business growth, stable asset quality, and continued focus on high productivity.
Strong business model, distribution network, deep penetration in shared markets, customer sensitivity, along with appropriate tech support, and diversified product income stream have enabled the company to achieve good business results. Our net worth stands at over INR 4,100 crore, indicating robust capital adequacy. This, coupled with good support from banks, NHB, mutual funds, and DFI on the borrowing side, and with the strong on-ground demand for both home loans and small business loans, gives us the confidence to pursue strong growth, scalability in the coming years, with sustained profitability. Further, to support the vision of reaching loan book of INR 25,000 crore year by year by FY 2028, we will continuously strengthen the organization by way of investing in new branches, relevant technology, and strengthening the company with adequate manpower across all functions, more particularly in the middle management. I will now hand over the line to Mr.
Balaji to discuss the business focus, operating, and financial parameters. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Good morning, friends. As we have been explaining in the earlier calls, we will continue to focus on key strategies, namely growing disbursement and loan book in the housing loan and small business loan, considering the large headroom available in the low and middle-income segment in Tier 3 and 4 cities, expanding operations in the states of Odisha and Maharashtra, and increasing penetration in existing geographies by opening new branches, strengthening the analytics and digital adoption. About 21% of our business in Q3 FY 2025 has come from customer referral app, connector ecosystem app, and social media channel. Our focus shall be to increase the leads through these channels in addition to the critical branch network. Continue to focus on productivity, selection efficiencies, OpEx, and cost efficiency.
The new mobile-first lead management software has settled well and is bringing in good improvements in terms of streamlining our processes, service delivery, better TATs , improved collection productivity, better regulatory compliance, and improving overall efficiency. We are continuously monitoring the functioning of this new system to bring in more improvements. Now coming to the major performance highlights, AUM grew by 27% year-on-year to INR 10,226 crore. Disbursement during the year increased by 21% year-on-year to INR 930 crore. We have 298 branches as of 31st December, and as we speak, we have reached a branch network of just 300 of this. New branches are in the states of Maharashtra and Odisha, and the balance 288 branches are in Tamil Nadu, UP, Telangana, and Karnataka. Total branches added for the nine months were at 36. Total live customers crossed 152,000, which is a 27% growth year-on-year. NPA was at 1.28%.
Now coming to the asset quality, collection efficiencies were at 99.35%, and our 30+ DPD marginally improved to 6.21% as of 31st December as compared to 6.24% as of 30th September. Net NPA was at 0.96%. Provision coverage ratio maintained consistently at 1.03% as of 31st December 2024. We are carrying the total provision of around INR 105 crore, including a management overlay of INR 55 crore, and this when computed as a percentage of NPA was at a coverage of 80%. NIM was at 12.94%. OpEx to assets were at 2.61% despite investment in new branches, technology, and HR. Profit after tax was at INR 5.4 crore, which is a growth of 22% year-on-year. ROA was at 7.7%, and return on equity was at 18.54%, which is one of the best in the industry.
Now coming to the funding, during the quarter, we diversified our borrowing further by issuing NCDs aggregating to INR 325 crore to mutual funds. Of the total borrowing, 64% are from banks, 18% from NHB, 15% from NCDs issued to mutual funds and IFC, and the balance is in the form of securitization. We have on-balance sheet liquidity of INR 998 crore, including undrawn sanction of INR 520 crore from banks. As you know, we have not done any direct assignment of loans and front-ending of income on account of this. Just before I conclude, happy to share that we have received a corporate agency license from IRDAI during the quarter. Now, with these remarks, I'll open the floor for the question and answer session.
Thank you, sir. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Rajiv Mehta from YES Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Good morning. Congrats on a good stable quarter. My first question is an observation related to employee costs. So this has been stable in the last three or four quarters despite sizable AUM increase in addition of 36 branches. So why is this? And can you also share the employee count now versus one year back and some color on attrition trends? And typically, what is the variable component in a monthly salary of a sales officer?
Rajiv, the why is not very clear, but anyway, I'll answer your questions to the extent I can, and after that, we can make a clarification. First of all, if you look at the salary cost, it has been stable quarter on quarter because if you look at our disbursements, it was INR 935 crores last quarter, and it is INR 930 crores. So because of that, the volume-related incentives does not increase. So that is one reason. And of course, the number of employees in the sales, I think, has increased by 100, and in the collections, it has increased by 38 compared to the last quarter. And all these additions have happened during the second of the quarter, and maybe to that extent, the cost catching up will come in the fourth quarter. So this is broadly the reason why the salary costs were flat.
And what is your next question, Rajiv?
Hello, Rajiv. Please go ahead. Since there's no response, we will move to the next participant. The next participant is Palak from YES Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. So my question was more towards the borrowing front. So I wanted to know that out of the total borrowings, how much of our borrowings is linked to one-month MCLR, three-month MCLR, and EBLR?
If you look at our total borrowings, 60% is around 47%, and 53% is variable. And of the 53% variable, 30% is linked to MCLR, and 23% is linked to market-related rates. So if you look at how much is relating to one-year MCLR, of this 30%, almost 15% to 16% is related to one-year MCLR. Three months is almost 6%, and six months is the balance. So that is the breakup on the borrowings.
Okay. The rest, 30% is linked to MCLR, and 23% is linked to? Couldn't hear you.
23% is linked to the market rate, either a treasury bill or a paper rate.
Okay.
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent benchmark.
Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. That's it from me.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Khetan from Laburnum Capital. Please go ahead. Amit, please go ahead with your question and unmute yourself in case if you have muted yourself.
Hello?
Yes, Amit. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Am I audible?
Yes. Yes, Amit.
Yeah. Hi. Sorry. Thanks for taking my questions. A couple of questions related to your branch network. So if I look at our existing states, right, the top three states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra, and Telangana, we have some 250-odd branches right now. How do you see this for these three states? What's the potential over the next three to five years? And specifically for TN, has the market sort of saturated? Because we haven't really grown our branch network significantly over the last three to four years.
Because I have gone through the Tamil Nadu branch network. Currently, the Tamil Nadu branch network is around 88, and I mean, if you look at it, every 50-60 km in Tamil Nadu, we will have a branch. We are proposing to add six or seven more branches in this quarter and also in the next year. To that extent, the growth in branch network might be limited in Tamil Nadu, but actually, there is no problem in the market. The market has good potential to grow. With these branches, we are very confident of delivering the growth which we are promising. That is the first thing on the Tamil Nadu. If you look at our strategy of growth, we will be opening around 35-40 branches every year.
In the next year, the branch network will be growing mostly in Odisha, Maharashtra, and Telangana, and Karnataka. Because if you look at coastal Andhra Pradesh, I think Andhra Pradesh, it is almost 130 branches are there. And I think we are every 50, 60 kilometers there, we are adding a branch there. So again, the branch network might not increase much, but the loan book growth will come from the market that is available. So this is broadly the plan which is the growth will be coming in the next three to four years.
Understood. Understood. And second question again would be related to the newer states, right, which is Maharashtra, Odisha, and Karnataka. What's your experience been in terms of competition, opportunity size, and the customer behavior based on the growth that we have seen so far?
If you look at it, I think Maharashtra and the branches opened in Maharashtra and Odisha have settled well. And we have clocked our loan book as of now of INR 37 crores, which is a very good number because considering the time we have taken to open the Bhusawal branch and then expand, this is a very fast growth there. And we are able to get good customers, and the customers, the repayment is also behaving very well. So we are very confident of growing more branches in these states and also the loan book growth there. And as regards to competition, in Odisha, there are not many players. Of course, in Maharashtra, there are players, but we are opening branches close to Telangana.
So, there are not many players, but still, we need to see when we are opening branches in the other places. We need to look at competition at that point in time.
Got it. Got it. And just to follow- up on that, Karnataka, three years back was about at a similar scale as Telangana. Why has the scale-up there been relatively slow relative to Andhra and Telangana?
If you look at Karnataka, the loan book growth is around 27%, which is good, so it is basically the number, the growth in other states is slightly higher. That is why the composition of the AUM is still maintained at around 8%. If you look at Karnataka, we are having good progress. We are opening more branches in this year. Next year also, we'll be opening more branches. There is good growth in the loan book and also the disbursement in that place.
Okay. Got it. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Yash from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. So first question is on the write-offs, which looks like you're not.
Yes, the why is not clear, yes.
Hi, sir. Is it better now?
There's a crackling noise on your line, Yash.
Oh, okay. Slightly better now?
No, not quite.
Is it better now?
You asked closely. It's good. Yeah, I think it's yeah.
Sorry. Sorry for the inconvenience. The first question was on the calculated write-offs may look slightly elevated during the quarter. So any change in the policy? I believe our policy was more of write-offs in 24 months DPD.
We are talking about the credit card, right? There is a slight increase there. See, I'll answer it in detail. If you look at the ECL provision slide, if you look at the ECL provision slide, in this quarter, there is an increase in provision of almost INR 5.75 crores. But the debit in the P&L is around INR 12.5 crores, which is around INR 13 crores. That's what it is mentioned. So the difference is almost INR 6 crores that has got debited in the P&L. That is basically because of technical write-off, which means we have this accounting policy of more than 24-month MPA, where we technically write it off in the book of accounts, but the recovery efforts will continue because the customer will be there, the property is also there.
So this means this INR 13 crores debit needs to be studied with the market recovery that is happening on the income side, which is around 5 crores. So if you look at the net credit cost as compared to the previous quarter, previous quarter, it was 0.38%, and now it has reduced to 0.32%. So it is basically so we are actually seeing improvement in the market recovery as well. So that is the thing. And we are not seeing any problems in the collections or in the recorded recovery.
Okay. Okay. Got it, sir. That's very helpful. The second is in the expansion in our workforce. So we've seen you've added more on the collection side and the branch operation side or the overall operation side. So is that in line with our focus areas or because the number slightly looks higher compared to our branch additions?
Yeah. I'll tell you why this is getting added. See, one thing is we are guiding the market with 30% or 25%-40% loan book growth in the next two, three years. So what happens is we need to prepare the organization for the next level. So I have already started preparing the organization by employing more salespeople and also in the collections. So that even if the downswing is occurring, the number of collections has to happen because of the growth. So we need these collection officers in place. So we have already appointed so that we can take care of the next year as well. So that is the reason why the numbers have gone up. And still, if you look at it, the productivity per sales officer is higher if you look at any other company, any NBFC or HFC for us.
For a INR 10,226 crore loan book, we have an employee strength of just INR 3,192 crore.
Got it. So, sir, even our disbursement growth in the range of 25%- 30% should hold in the medium term?
Yes. Yes.
Okay. Got it. So that's it from my side. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rajiv Mehta from YES Securities. Please go ahead.
Sir, am I audible this time?
Yeah. Yes, Rajiv.
It is better, right? Okay. Thank you. Sir, so again, just coming back to asset quality. When you look at the collection efficiencies, they are still running 30-40 basis points below normal level that we used to have. So any particular issues for this slightly lower collection efficiency? Is it pertaining to the particular locations that you would want to pinpoint where the collection efficiency is slightly lower than optimal levels? A follow-up is whether generally in Q4, we are able to pull back 30+ and even the NPLs by a significant extent. So can one expect that collection efficiencies and recovery will improve and hence that usual pullback will also play out in this Q4?
It's just that I'm looking at the collection efficiency. If you look at the September quarter and this quarter collection efficiency, it has increased a bit. I think it was 99.25% last quarter, and it has become 99.35% now. That is actually resulting in stage two assets slightly improving. So that is one thing which has helped us. And on the field, we are not seeing any kind of issue in the.
Sir, your audio is not clear. Could you come a little closer to the microphone, please?
Actually, I'm very close to the mic. Anyway, so.
I'll disconnect and reconnect you. Please stay online. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you for patiently holding. We have the line of the management reconnected. Hello, sir. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Is Rajiv on the line?
Yes, sir. I'm there.
Yeah. Rajiv, see, we were talking about this collection efficiency. If you look at the quarter, it has slightly improved as compared to the previous quarter. But of course, we should also bear this in mind. This quarter was slightly seasonal in nature. In November, Tamil Nadu was affected by floods in some parts. And of course, there were spate of holidays in October. Basically, both big festivals came in the same month. Usually, it comes in different months. So because of that, some impact was there. But I'm not seeing ongoing problem in terms of collections. So definitely, like what you told, in the fourth quarter, there will be good improvement both in the collection efficiency and also in the stage two assets and, of course, in the NPA.
Got it. Got it, sir. And on this Tamil Nadu, so now I think after seven-eight quarters, we have added branches in Tamil Nadu this time in this quarter. So then can one presume then with the issues related to team stability and we had some attrition issues there, are they all sorted out? And hence, you're confident of adding branches now? And can one also expect acceleration in growth in this state now?
Yes. That is what it is. See, actually, whatever corrective actions we have taken have started to bear fruits, and that is giving us confidence to open more branches, so that is why we opened three or four branches in the last quarter, and this quarter, we'll be opening two branches, and next year, we are opening around six branches, so that is giving us a good confidence, and we will be back to the growth path in Tamil Nadu. As we have been saying, there is no problem in the market. It is basically our internal issue that has got sorted out, and our AUM has grown by 11% as compared to the nine months of the previous year, so we can see more at least 15% growth in this quarter itself, I mean, as compared to the previous year.
And just one last question, sir, on the write-offs. So I know that we have a certain write-off policy. But the write-off quantum has gone up. So there was no deviation from policy, right? We have not taken any accelerated technical write-offs, right?
We have not taken any accelerated technical write-off.
It is basically some of the assets reaching this 24-month NPA.
Correct.
And that is why it has gone up. But we need to look at it from the recovery part. So that i s how it is. Yeah.
But recoveries from write-offs are going well.
Huh?
Recoveries from written-off pool are going well?
Yes. Yes. If you look at the P&L account, I have written separately, bad debt provision for the quarter is INR 5 crores as compared to INR 1 crore last quarter.
Okay. Okay.
But that's there in the presentation. It might not be there in the financials because it gets clubbed with other income. But that's why to answer this query only, I have answered as clearly told in the presentation as bad debt recovery, I have brought in a separate line there.
Can you quantify the written-off pool?
What is that?
The total written-off pool?
Around INR 20 crores as of now. That's also Technical Write-Off.
Yeah. Yeah. Technical write-off. Okay. So in that case, thank you so much and best of luck.
Yeah. Thanks, Rajiv.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mona Khetan from Dolat Capital Market. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. So a couple of questions to my side. Firstly, on the OpEx rate, so if you look at, for nine months, the OpEx ratio cost to assets has come down to almost 10% versus last year. So with productivity coming in, do we expect cost to income settling at lower levels, or this could be just a temporary drift?
No. Our cost to assets is already at the lowest as compared to the other companies. So we will be maintaining at these levels. And I think we have been guiding around 2.7%. And that will be the ratio that will be maintained. So this quarter, because of this salary, because disbursements were flat, the salary cost didn't catch up. So there can be increase in the salary cost in the next quarter. So to that extent, there will be an increase. But still, ours will be the best OpEx to assets ratio in the company as compared to others.
Got it. And I understand some of the recoveries from write-offs are going to other income. And therefore, the reported credit cost of provision started at higher. So where is our credit cost likely to settle at from a guidance perspective going forward?
From the guidance perspective, we have been guiding 0.35%-0.4% as credit cost. That will continue.
Okay. So from a full-year perspective, while this quarter, we have a slightly higher credit cost, it would still be around 46 kind of number?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Got it. And where is our one-plus vintage for this quarter and previous quarter, if you could share?
It has slightly improved. Earlier, it was at around eight. Now, it has become 7.9. Though it is not a I mean, we have to improve a lot on that. But currently, it is at 7.9.
Got it. And just finally, on the distribution of insurance products, how much could it add to our other income on a monthly or quarterly basis as we move forward?
See, we have just received the corporate agency license now. We are still in talks with two or three insurance companies. So, it will come, we will communicate this once this is getting finalized.
Got it, sir. Thank you so much. I'll come back.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Niharika from Anand Rathi. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. I have just two primary questions. What proportion of your book is linked to the PMAY Yojana? If you could help us with that. And the second question would be, what kind of behavior are you seeing in the sub-10 lakh category of the book?
First of all, PMAY 2.0, this needs to stabilize a bit because the software from the government is also still not ready. We are in talks with NHB and then getting the software from the government stabilized. And then only this can work fast. So we are still assessing that. And then maybe next quarter, we'll be able to give a clear picture on how PMAY works for us. And the second quarter, what is the pattern you are talking about? Less than INR 10 lakhs about the credit score, or what is it that you want to know?
Just what is the kind of behavior that you're seeing in that part of the portfolio in terms of collections? How has the asset quality been there?
If you look at our average ticket size, it is between INR 8.5 lakhs-INR 9 lakhs across products, so everything is less than INR 10 lakhs, and we are seeing good behavior in this category. If you look at our collection efficiencies, it is around 99.35%, and our bounce ratios have also reduced, and there are no collection issues as we have been telling, and it has been behaving well. The portfolio has been behaving well.
Okay. And then as a follow-up question, what is the kind of growth rate that we're expecting for FY 2026 in terms of the overall book?
See, we have been guiding disbursement growth of around 25%-27% and loan book growth of 30%. And we are very confident of maintaining that.
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for taking my question.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kushan Parikh from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Thanks for taking my question. My question is largely around the insurance license that we have gotten. Essentially, we'll be looking for both credit life as well as health insurance. And also around that, if you could just provide some statistics in terms of how much credit life penetration do we have amongst our customers and what is the potential there. And also from an overall insurance penetration amongst our customers. I mean, just trying to understand the potential of this to accrue to the company.
See, we have received the corporate agency license now. But before that, also, we had a tie-up with an insurance company for the credit life. And the coverage is around 75%-80% because we are not making it compulsory for the customers. We have given the option to the customers to take their credit life cover. But we explain the benefits of the credit life cover because if something happens, the loan amount gets covered. So based on that, the customer opts for this insurance. And the conversion is around 80% there. And with the corporate agency coming in, we'll be giving more options to the customer on the credit life and also the property insurance.
Understood. Understood. And will we be doing health insurance as well from a distribution perspective?
We don't intend to do any other product other than these two.
Okay. Understood. All right. Thank you. That was my only question.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rajnikant Shah, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I just wanted to ask a little medium-term question from a three-year perspective, say, financial year 2028. How much confident we are to achieve 7%+ ROA while we achieve INR 25,000 crores AUM as guided in financial year 2028? And if we are confident, what range of ROE can we expect?
No. If you look at it, see, if I'm going to reach a INR 25,000 crores loan book, obviously, the ROE cannot be at 7% because the leverage is going to come in. Because we have a capital adequacy ratio and a low leverage, we have a high capital adequacy ratio. With the result, we will not come into the market for any equity rate. So the borrowings will be the sourcing thing for the purpose of growth that we are contemplating up to FY 2028. So what does that mean? So this 7.7% ROE will maybe fall down to 6% or 6.5% at that point in time. But the 18.54% ROE is likely to go beyond 22% at that point in time. So this is the broad path with which we'll be growing. And I think we'll be going this way. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. That was very useful. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nidhesh Jain from Investec. Please go ahead.
Yeah, I'm Nidhesh. Thank you for the opportunity, sir.
Hi, sir. The two questions. First is on this quarter, we have seen a slightly better growth in the SBL segment. SBL has grown faster than our overall AUM growth. So do you expect this trend to continue? And have you made any changes in the SBL business?
No. If you look at, I would like to answer it from the product mix point of view. If you look at the December 2024 product mix, actual is 61%. And quasi-home loan is 14%. And small business loan is around 21%. This was 15% quasi-home loan in September and 20% in the small business loan. So actually speaking, there is not much difference in the mix. So this mix will be continued. If you look at the housing loan HFC composition, we are moving towards more housing loans. Earlier, it was 70%. That has become 72% now.
This broadly will be the mix that will be maintained. Maybe in one quarter, small business loan might be high, but in second quarter, quasi will be high. Broadly, this mix of 61, 14, and 21 will be maintained.
Okay. Second question on the insurance side is, as of now, what sort of commission that we were getting on the insurance policy that we are selling?
We'll talk about it later. This specific, I'll call you again. Yeah.
Okay. And last is on the AUM per branch. So you have shared the AUM per branch for three-year plus vintage branches. Can you share the same number for five-year plus vintage branches? I want to understand as the branch vintage increases.
AUM should be around INR 65 crores and above. INR 65 crores- INR 70 crores. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Sure. Thank you, sir. That's it from my side.
Thanks, Nidhesh. Yeah.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Rajiv Mehta from YES Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. So thank you for a follow-up. I just need, what is the incremental rate for home loans blended for Q3? What was it? And how do you see the incremental trend in funding costs going into 4Q and maybe Q1 of next year? And can we maintain spreads at the current level in the next two quarters?
If you look at it, the incremental rates on the housing loan, we have not changed any rates. So the rates are between 14.5%-15.5% on the home loans. So that is what it is getting maintained. So now, if you are talking about the cost of funds, the cost of funds for the housing finance company is ranging between 8.5%-8.7%, which is the same as the last quarter. So we are not seeing much increase. But on the NBFC, we have seen a slight increase from 9% to, say, 9.1% or so. And this is likely to continue in the fourth quarter as well. But we don't know. If the rate cuts is going to happen, then my 23% of my borrowings will get repriced immediately. To that extent, there can be some good news on the spreads.
But if you look, if the rate cut doesn't come, there can be a 0.1% decrease in the NIM because of the increase in the interest rate.
Clear. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Siraj Khan, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hello. I'm audible?
Yes. Yes.
Thank you for the opportunity. So sir, first question is on the spread and the AUM and the yield. So we are starting to grow in the state of Odisha and Maharashtra. Maharashtra being very highly penetrated, and the competition is also there. So my question is, can the yield come down because we'll be facing more competition? And as that book will start to grow, so will the yield come down and therefore spreads?
No. I don't think that will happen because when we ventured into Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, at that time also, the competition was there. And we were able to get these rates of 15.5% or 14.5% to 15.5% on the HL and around 17%-18% on the quasi-home loan and also 21% on the small business loans. So we are not seeing that kind of pressures even in the branches which we have opened as of now. So I don't think that will happen. If it comes to that level, we may have to revisit at that point in time. But as of now, we are not seeing that kind of pressures.
Yes. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. And also, with respect to the branch expansion, so did not catch how many branches will be opening specifically in the state of Maharashtra?
Another 10 branches is being planned both in the states of Maharashtra and Odisha in the next year.
Okay. And a related question is, actually, since we are having a lot of opportunities in the southern states of AP, Telangana, and Andhra Pradesh has grown very fast, FY 2021, the book has more than quadrupled. So is there still juice left in these states, or will the new states perform at the same level? I want to understand that.
No. Actually, we have just scratched the tip of the iceberg in terms of the market size. So still, the market opportunity is there in the states already we are operating in, plus the new states. So the growth for the next few years will come like this. First is the business from the new branches in new states, business from the existing branches in the existing states, then increase in productivity of people at the branches. Say if people are logging in four files per month per sales officer, that can be increased to five. Similarly, having an optimum number of people at the branches. Suppose if the budgeted level of staff strength in a particular branch is five, and they have only four, we'll be employing one more who will contribute to the growth.
So all this, and of course, one more thing is the increase in the ATS without having any problem on the installment to income and the LTV. So suppose if the current ATS is around INR 8.5 lakhs, if you increase it to INR 9.5 lakhs, then that growth will come from that as well. So all this will contribute to the growth guidance of around 30% on the AUM for the next three, four years.
Thank you for the detailed answer. And just one last clarification. You had said there was INR 20 crore write-off in the pool.
Yeah.
There was another INR 6 crore write-off. I was just confused. There was a INR 6 crore technical write-off also. I was just not able to understand that.
INR 20 crore is the total value of the write-off over the years.
Okay.
And INR 6 crore is the write-off for the quarter.
Yeah. INR 6 crore is the write-off for Q3 or nine months?
This is for the INR 6 crore for the three months.
Okay. Okay. Understood. Thank you, sir.
Nine months, sir. As of date, it is INR 20 crore, sir.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jayesh Shah from Ohm Portfolio Equities. Please go ahead.
Hello. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, I just had one question. Given our spreads and the yields, how does the regulator look at it? Because there was some concern by the previous RBI governor that the rates are very high that are being charged by various NBFCs. Now, of course, we have the new regulator, but how would you comment on this? Or have you seen any questions from the regulator on the overall yields?
Yeah. Let me explain this. See, if you look at the FY 2024 year, the inspection by both NHB and RBI has got completed. And they have not raised any query on the interest rates that are being charged. So we are getting an impression that what we are charging is not very high. Then the second thing is we have also done an interim comparison of all the NBFCs and HFCs. We are in line or less than what other people are charging. So to that extent, we are not seeing any inputs or comments from RBI on reducing the interest rates which are being charged by us.
Okay. Thank you, sir. That's all. Thank you very much and best wishes.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nischint Chawathe from Kotak Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for taking my question. Essentially, on your medium-term growth target, just curious that when you're looking at such a larger book, will the product mix be similar? Are you going to have such a larger proportion of fixed-rate loans? And in that case, how would you sort of manage the liability side of the balance sheet? I think what we can see is that as your balance sheet keeps on growing, the overall share of fixed-rate borrowings does keep on coming down. So if you're going to have a similar ratio of fixed versus floating, probably you might have some kind of a mismatch a few years down the line.
See, that I would like to answer by way of the leverage. See, if you look at the leverage, which is very low, even if I have to grow to INR 25,000 crores, the leverage is going to be three or four times only. So to that extent, the interest rate risk can be handled. And I mean, it is not that, first of all, it is not that we don't want to give a variable rate of interest to our customers. It is basically the requirement of fixed rate is coming from our customer requirement stating that they don't want any change in the EMI or in the tenor of the loans. So that is the reason why we are giving this fixed. But based on the leverage, I think we are better off managing this fixed rate of interest going forward.
Got it. So basically, it's the leverage that gives you comfort. And if there is any kind of a swing, you'll absorb it. But broadly, what we're trying to say is that the loan book composition and the step-down structure, I think those things will remain as they are.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
No. No home loans anyway, it is fixed by other players also. No. So yeah.
Yeah. Got it. And is there any commentary on the growth trajectory that you're looking at in each of the companies from the regulator?
No. If you look at, I would like to comment on a consolidated basis. This 30% will be there, and the product mix, which we explained earlier, that will also continue, because in the NBFC, the loan book itself is only INR 2,600 crores, so obviously, the growth, even if I grow by INR 1,000 crores, the percentage will be high, so we cannot benchmark based on that rate, right, so it will be based on the mix and also the overall guidance of 30% AUM for the next three, four years.
Got it. Just curious, last one, just curious, do you really need a step-down subsidiary now? I think you're managing the 60% ratio on a consolidated basis anyway, right? So would you want to continue with the subsidiary?
Flexibility, right? It is not. I mean, we were lucky enough to get the license from RBI on the NBFC. We would like to have this as a we would like to continue with the NBFC. But this is also giving us product diversification and income stream diversification. So we would like to definitely continue with this with clear demarcation of products which get booked in HFC and also which is getting booked in the NBFC. And there are no common customers between the NBFC and the HFC. So there is actually no overlap. All the customers are unique. And going forward, we'll have a separate structure for NBFC with the business head and credit and branches also will be having a separate in itself.
But in an eventuality, if you have to collapse the structure, is there any part of the business that cannot be done in the HFC or anything of that sort?
Basically, the small business loans. See, if you have an NBFC structure, the small business loans, we find that the market for the small business loans is also huge. And because of this 60% on the total asset criteria, it restricts our ability to do the small business loans. By way of having an NBFC, I don't have that constraint. So to that extent, the NBFC has been useful to us. And we'll be booking small business loans in that.
Got it. Just a clarification. Today, even on a consolidated basis, you are at 61%, right? So today.
No, 61% is on the loan book. Yeah.
On an AUM basis?
No. No. If you look at the total assets, it will be different. No. Because the cash balance and everything gets included.
Oh, okay. Got it. On the loan book basis, you are at 61%, but if you okay. Got it.
Yeah.
Of course. So perfect. Thank you very much.
Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kushan Parikh from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Thanks for taking my question again. Just a couple of housekeeping questions. On the asset quality front, just wanted to understand what would be the end losses or LGD that you would have from the run-off pool, essentially. And secondly, another housekeeping question that I want to understand was the BT out rate that we have. And if you could just give some color around the BT out part.
Yeah. See, first of all, if you look at the ultimate loss, the loss given default, since our LTV is between 40%-45%, the principal write-off is absolutely nil or maybe it will be very, very minimal. That is the first thing. See, what will happen in a housing finance company if a customer is not there or if a property is not there, then we might be forced to write it off. But in our case, the customer and the property is there. And because of that, we are able to recover the money because this is the first-time house owners. So they are living in that house. So the moral responsibility to pay back the loan is very high in these customers. So we are able to get the money back. So ultimate loss to that extent will be very less.
That is what is the loss given default. Okay? This is similar in terms of SBL also because that is also a secured product secured by self-occupied residential property. So the loss given default is almost nil for all the products which we are in. Then the next question on the BT out, it is around 2.5%. See, what happens is our pre-closures are around 7.7%-8% on the average loan book. Of that, almost 4%-5% gets pre-closed out of own source of the customers. Normally, these kinds of customers, because of their business, they get bulk cash flows. And when they receive these bulk cash flows, what they do is to settle the housing loan first. So that is why the BT out is less. And it is around 2.5% for us.
Got it. Just a couple of follow-up questions. So on the BT out one first, with a scenario of a rate cut, do you envisage the BT out rate to inch up for assets given we are a fixed-rate borrower? Sorry, fixed-rate lender. And the second question is around the LGD. So I mean, I understand that on the principal side, given the low LTV, the LGD would be nil. But what would be the IRR on such loans?
See, we are not writing off any principal or interest. We will be waiving off some of the charges when these NPAs are getting settled, which normally we accrue on cash basis. So yeah. So actually, the IRR will be the same as the contracted rate, except for the delay in the payment. So that is the only thing.
Understood. And on the BT out?
No, I didn't understand that question. Can you?
Sorry. I'm trying to understand that in a rate cut scenario where the floating rate peers would largely be cutting their lending rates, do we see this BT out rate increasing from the 2.5% going forward, or how will we manage this?
Kushan, if we have been operating for this company for the last 15 years, the rate cycles, both high and low, have already been experienced by us. And this BT out rate is around 2.5% consistently right from the beginning. So we are not seeing that kind of an increase. But because of the rate cut, if it is going to increase, if the BT out is going to increase, we'll have to do more business. So that's how we need to look at it.
Understood. This is nicely put . Thank you.
The next question. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Siraj Khan, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hello. Thank you for the follow-up. So sir, my question was with respect to the yield difference, the HL business and the non-HL business, what is the difference between the yields of the two?
No, I didn't understand. What was the question?
See, what's the average interest rate on non-housing loans?
See, if they're housing, we have three products. One is the housing loan, we charge between 14.5%-15.5%. We have this quasi-home loan, we charge between 17%-18%. We have the small business loans, we charge between 20%-21%.
Okay. And sir, the average ticket size of each of these segments?
The average ticket size is around INR 8.5-INR 9 lakhs on both quasi-home loan and the home loan. This one is around INR 7.5 lakhs.
SBL?
Both. SBL is around INR 7.5 lakhs. It is INR 8.5 to INR 9 lakhs on the housing loans and the quasi-home loans.
Understood. Understood. And again, to come back on the geographical expansion, sir, why are we not because we are so over-capitalized, why are we not going because we have now spent a good amount of time in Maharashtra, approximately closing on three years now? So why are we not increasing the number of branches at a faster rate in these states? And in Karnataka, we have seen.
First of all, once again, let me explain. Maharashtra, we have been there only in the last nine months. The first branch was opened sometime last March. Yeah. So we have been there only for the last nine, 10 months. Okay? So we are having great expectations from Maharashtra, and the business is also doing well. We'll be opening more branches, but it will be a slow and steady progress. It will not be like I'll open 100 branches in Maharashtra.
No, no, not 100, but like.
No, nine months only as I understand. No, no. First of all, it's only nine months over. We have opened 10 branches. Okay? So it will be like that. Yeah. Yeah.
In Karnataka, despite the E-Khata issue, which I was also seeing for other companies, did we face that issue in Karnataka also?
We have this issue.
It is across companies. We have this E-Khata issue. But we are more in the peripheries, not in the city. So to that extent, this issue is minimized. And of course, what we tell our customers is because of E-Khata, what is happening is there is a delay in the disbursements. Suppose if the disbursement turnaround time for us is, say, seven days, in Karnataka, it will become 15 days. So what we are telling the customer is, "Plan well in advance to get the E-Khata, and then come to us for a loan, and then we give the RTGS disbursement immediately." So that is how we are handling this. And we are seeing good results in the Karnataka disbursements.
Okay, and final statistical question. Sir, what is our login to sanction ratio and in percentage and in number of days and sanction to disbursement?
If 100 files get logged in, 85 get sanctioned.
85% get sanctioned. 85%. And sanction to disbursement?
Sanction to disbursement will be around from 85%, 80% gets disbursed.
Of the 85, 80% will get disbursed. Okay. And the days, in number of days, so from login to the disbursement, the approximate number of days?
Login to sanction is around one to two days. Sorry, sanction to login is around one to two days. And sanction to disbursement takes around seven to eight days because the legal documents need to be vetted. So that takes a little bit of time to disburse.
Thank you, sir. That was ver y helpful.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.
Yeah. Thank you, Mona and her friends, for organizing this conference call. I would like to pay my sincere gratitude to all the analysts, investor friends who have taken time to present to us today. Please feel free to contact with us in case you have any further queries. Thank you.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of Dolat Capital Market Private Limited, that concludes this conference. You may now disconnect your lines.