Good evening, everyone. On behalf of the company, I would like to welcome you all to Aurionpro Solutions Limited earnings conference call for Q4 and FY2025. Today, on this call, we have with us from the management, Mr. Ashish Rai, Global CEO; Mr. Vipul Parmar, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Ninad Kelkar, Company Secretary. We will begin the call with brief opening remarks from the management, followed by a question-and-answer session. Please note that certain statements made during this call may be forward-looking in nature. Such forward-looking statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties that could cause the actual results or projections to differ materially from those statements. Aurionpro Solutions will not be in any way responsible for any actions taken based on such statements and undertakes no obligation to publicly update these forward-looking statements. I would now like to hand over the call to Mr.
Ashish Rai for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to this earnings call for FY2025. I'm sure by now you have all listened to [audio distortion], and I hope you had an opportunity to review it and ask some interesting questions. I'm pleased to present another year of strong 30%+ growth. This sustained growth trajectory well into the fourth year reflects the deep trust our customers placed in us, the scale of the opportunity in the large and expanding markets that we serve, and the growing strength of our differentiated IP-led offerings. Both of our segments continue to demonstrate strong business momentum underpinned by a significant growing pipeline across both the banking and Fintech, as well as technology innovation growth. Both these segments are growing at a healthy pace, recording year-on-year growth of 34% for banking, 30% for TIG.
During the year, we added 42 new clients, a great proof point of the increasing market relevance of our solutions. This growth was accompanied by successful forays into newer geographies with clearly notable traction in the Middle East and a strategic expansion into Europe through the Fenixys acquisition that we announced. All the key product lines in banking and Fintech, especially transaction banking, lending, as well as Interact, had significant new logo wins in the year. In the transit segment, we secured major wins with marquee projects such as Delhi Metro and Chennai Metro, and we are actively pursuing several other large opportunities that are currently in the pipeline. We're also witnessing encouraging traction in the data center and hybrid cloud space, driven by increased demand for scalable and secure infrastructure solutions. As we look to FY 2026, the overall outlook remains very positive.
Over the past four years, we've established the capabilities, scale, and operational resilience that we need to sustain our strong growth trajectory. This foundation positions us very well to capitalize on the emerging opportunities across the focus sectors and markets that we have. We also recognize that sustaining this momentum requires continued investment in innovation. To that end, we plan to increase our R&D spend to further strengthen our product roadmaps and ensure long-term differentiation and competitiveness. We will significantly step up R&D spend this year, focusing on significant adjacencies in transit, in transaction banking and lending, market readiness for new markets, especially in Europe, as well as re-engineering most of the applications that we have to move to an AI-native architecture that can operate seamlessly with our enterprise AI offerings.
We'll also continue to double down on R&D with the enterprise AI offerings with Prism and with Apex, as well as deep research-led offerings with [Arya.ai]. We see a significant opportunity to deepen our presence in developed markets, particularly in Europe. As part of this effort, we are evaluating a measured increase in investments aimed at building sales and distribution channels across several key geographies in Europe. As we get into FY 2026, we will continue to execute our strategic playbook with discipline. We are making several large bets in the new year, but in our usual methodical and measured way, and I remain confident in our team's ability to execute against these bets and deliver strong, sustainable value for all stakeholders in the years ahead. With that, I hand back over to the operator for questions. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question-and-answer session. Participants who wish to ask questions through audio and video, please click the raise hand icon and wait for your turn to ask the questions. Participants who wish to ask questions via chat can click on the Q&A icon on the screen and post your questions. We will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question comes from Vinay Menon. Please introduce the firm you represent, and I invite you to accept the prompt on your screen, unmute your audio and video, and ask for the questions or give comments. Mr. Vinay, can you please unmute yourself and go ahead with your question, sir?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congrats, sir. Another great set of numbers. Just a few questions from my side. One was for the quarter, can you give any color on how banking and TIG did as segments, and did we see any dip in our banking side this quarter?
Hey, Vinay. Hi, thanks. Look, I think banking and TIG both continue to accelerate. TIG, of course, was slow in the first half of the year, and as I've said, will accelerate into Q3 and Q4, and it very much stayed back by a number of new wins. Banking, again, continued to grow. There is always, I think in terms of new wins as well, banking had a very strong Q4, but the way the project deliveries work, most of the projects go into, I think the typical timeline is 12 months plus. A lot of those wins in Q4 will go into sort of delivering revenue next year. There is really no material acceleration or slowdown to talk about.
I think we probably have a few more wins in the second half of the year for banking than we had in the first half, but by and large, it's BAU.
Okay. Thank you for that. Is there any seasonality in Q4 for overall our software sales? Because I've seen last year also from Q3 to Q4, there was a dip, and this year also it's similar. Any seasonality which you can give us an idea of?
Yeah, I think the seasonality, Vinay, comes to the extent that we do focus on finishing up the deliveries in Q4 and sort of preparing for starting off new projects. From a sales standpoint, Q4 tends to be heavier, right? Typically what really happens is we focus a lot on finishing up the projects because a lot of collections and payments are linked to project go-lives. To the extent that Q4 would always be focused more on collections and finishing up the deliveries rather than trying to sort of accelerate through in terms of deliveries, right? That is the seasonality. The way it happens is a lot of sales, I would say 40%-odd of the sales happens towards the tail end of Q3 and Q4. Just the nature of the project delivery, typically most projects will go on for 12, 14 months.
By the time you get to next Q4, you really want to finish up the project deliveries, the milestones, and actually collect. That sort of counts for the seasonality, both in terms of cash as well as in terms of revenue to some extent.
Okay. Okay, sir. We had put out an update that we opened two labs for Arya.ai , one in Paris and one in Mumbai. Can you throw any light on what kind of revenue can we get from this, and what is the idea of establishing these two setups?
Yeah, so the labs specifically are around AI interpretability, around explainability. Look, from a revenue standpoint, we feel very, very good about the AI-led offerings, and there are basically three legs to it. One is we are together with Arya, we are looking at AI enabling the whole application stack that leads to the kind of win rates, for example, we are seeing on transaction banking, where we basically are in Asia pretty much the most winning product today, and a lot of it is thanks to integrating the AI capabilities with the core application products. That's leg number one. Leg number two is the enterprise AI offerings where we are going in. This is through Prism. This is through the pre-trained models that we sell out through Apex.
This is where we go in and enable enterprise AI within the banking world and the larger enterprises that we go into. That's number two. Number three is the AI interpretability explainability, which is actually deep research. We probably run one of the top AI explainability labs on the planet, certainly the top lab in Asia, but probably one of the top five or six labs anywhere in the world, publishing our own original research, publishing our own algos. This is where I think we saw a benefit in expanding the lab to Europe. One is the depth of talent available in France, but the second also is with the Europe AI Act, there is a lot more regulatory maturity and demand from the banking world around it, right?
Now, all these three pieces put together, there is a significant, significant demand that we go after, but the research side sort of is more of a long play, which is where we intend to lead the world in terms of AI explainability, in terms of interpretability, and the enterprise AI is more here and now. The application space is more here and now. These two sell now and will come for demand, while the research side will contribute over the years. Hope that helps.
Okay. Okay, thank you for that, sir. One last question from my side. One is you had mentioned today that we're planning to expand into Europe in a big way, and you're seeing 7%-8% revenue coming from there. What is the strategy there? Could that kind of put some pressure on our costs because it is a new segment for a new area for us?
Yeah. Yeah, so good question. Look, I think Europe, we feel we are ready for, we feel would be a significant growth driver for us over the next three years. Europe is many countries, so it obviously varies depending on where it is. We see a very strong alignment with our AI focus, especially with the regulatory maturity there around AI. We feel a very strong demand pipeline that we built out over the last four-five months on transaction banking, on lending. I think it will really be a very key driver of growth for us. What are the investments we made? We built out a first-rate sales channel in Europe over the last two quarters, led by Tom Clifton, and there is a lot of talent that has come in there.
We, of course, have a really mature delivery capability built out through Fenixys as well, with good presence in France, good presence in the Nordics, in the U.K. We are investing a lot now in terms of readying the product set for the market. I think by and large, our products are deep and competitive, but when you go into a new market, there is always some level of product build-out that needs to be done to integrate with the local payment systems to make it ready, all that stuff, right? I think you are right. It will probably, especially in the first half of the year, put a little bit more pressure in terms of investments. I think for us, it is a pretty significant investment, but I think that is needed to capitalize on the long-term opportunity.
A large part of that increase, I think, can get absorbed by the improving economics on the software side of the business, at least because I think now there is a lot more momentum in terms of wins on the banking side, on lending, on transaction banking, on Interact, which basically results in an improving economics on these products. A large part of this increase in investments can get absorbed by that improving economics. I think overall, I think this would be a significant driver of growth for us, and these are investments that we will make today really for the business over the long term.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you. Thank you. That's all from me.
Thank you, sir. Participants who wish to ask questions through audio, please click the raise hand icon and wait for your turn to ask the question. Participants who wish to ask questions via chat can click on the Q&A icon on the screen and post your questions. The next question comes from Mr. Vimal Gohil. Please introduce the firm you represent and go ahead with your question. Mr. Vimal, I now invite you to accept the prompt on your screen, unmute your audio and video, and ask the questions or give comments.
Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. This is Vimal from Alchemy Capital. Sir, I just wanted to understand your outlook for the coming year a bit better, given the structure that you have provided us with. At one point in time, we have a very strong INR 1,400 crore worth of orders in hand, which is a 40% growth on a YoY basis. I do understand that the execution timeline is about four to six quarters, but on the whole, what I see is for FY2026, we have the Fenixys acquisition that will kick in, which is about 7% of growth. The second one will be Europe. I do not know if 7%, when you say Europe to be 7%, will this be including Fenixys or will Fenixys be incremental? I am not too sure on that. Additionally, you have also been very positive on the United States as well.
That will also kick in. On an overall basis, our revenue growth, in fact, should be excellent. I know I'm asking, I'm not saying that we've done badly, but what I tend to, what I'm trying to say is that our growth rate could be meaningfully upwards of 30%. Where am I missing? Where is my math going wrong somewhere if you could just explain that? That's point number one. The second point is your outlook on free cash. We've done a good job this quarter. We've pulled back from 120-odd days to 95 days. What I am trying to, what I would want to really see is a meaningful growth or your OCF growth mirroring your EBITDA or your revenue growth.
That is what I would be looking for, which probably has not transpired in this year, but if you could just help me understand how could FY 2026 look like, then I have a couple of data points, which I'll ask later. Thanks.
Thanks. Look, on the outlook, as you have noted, I have not given an upper band. Look, I feel good about being able to grow north of 30%. I think you are right about the order book. It is fairly strong at the moment. The pipeline is also very good at the moment. I think the constraining factor for us continues to be one, capacity. Second, how much do you really want to do without taking unnecessary risks in delivery, right? I think there is a lot of positives going into this year. The demand environment is very good. The order book is very good. The team is fairly steady, and we've grown capacity, I think, in terms of number of people, we grew about 15%-odd last year. We have been hiring, we have been building capacity.
I would say let's navigate the first half of the year and probably in Q3 discuss whether there is a meaningful upside. I don't think either the order book or the demand are the constraints that we should be looking at. I think the constraint set that you should be looking at is how can you really deliver while keeping the delivery reputation intact. I think in this business, so one, we have a core DNA to always make the customer successful. Aurionpro never fails delivery. Second, as we grow, as we scale globally, I think the differentiability, the extent to which you've been able to make the customer successful really is sort of the most significant factor when it comes to really going out and doing it.
I think when you look at constraint from that standpoint, and that's why I say 30% or north of 30%, I mean, north of 30% could be any number you can model, right? Let's discuss that in a couple of quarters. I think there's a lot of positives going into this year. The Europe number that I talked about is a couple of points above the Fenixys number. There is some disturbance on the line, so I think who was talking, please stay with you. It's a couple of points over the Fenixys number, right? We have built out the organic sales channel. We've also been doubling down on partnerships with a number of other vendors. That, again, is something that we are planning.
I think when you're growing at 30%-35%, the pace at which you're taking on new projects, the pace at which you're selling, I think it does put a little bit of constraint in terms of how accurate your planning is, right? I think that's just the reality of the game. I mean, I can throw a very precise number, but I think I would say let's navigate first half of the year. I'm sure it will be a very good first half of the year, and then let's take a call on whether there is a meaningful upside and how big that is.
Ashish, just one clarification there. When you talk about north of 30, are you including Fenixys or this growth of 30 is completely organic?
I don't know. I'm including everything.
Okay. So including Fenixys, you're saying north of 30?
Yes. Look, you're talking a number of about 1,550-1,600. Fenixys, let's say, is 5%. Thereabouts, slightly less.
Yeah, 7% right now. Assuming that you're at 30, your organic growth turns out to be 20%-25%.
Yes, I think it's thereabouts. I think I would say, right now, the number that we plan is the planning number overall. We'll grow north of 30. How much north it could be, let's leave that for the next couple of quarters.
Free cash, question on free cash.
Yeah. On the cash side, look, I think we've been really executing with a lot of discipline. A lot of focus went into Q3 and Q4 in terms of taking the clients live and collecting. The way it happens in the product business is just by the nature of the business. The payment milestones are not like, for example, services, projects, and stuff. A lot of payment is skewed towards taking the clients live. We focused on it significantly in the second half of the year, and I think it was quite successful. We'll continue to do that. DSO climbing down from 120 to 95, I think, is sort of a sign of that. I feel a 95 DSO, I'm not convinced, is totally sustainable. I think probably some number between 95 and 105 is where we'll stay.
If you're growing at 35% and Q4 is the heaviest quarter, there will always be a lot of bills outstanding, right? We accept that Q4 is 30% of the revenue or more, right? It would be you will always have a significant amount of invoices out the door, especially a lot of them leaving out the door on the 31st of March, right? I think that would always be the case. Should also not expect a mature startup-style growth and a mature company kind of cash flow, right? I think it's just the nature of how we operate, the pace at which we are growing. I think there will be, like I said, this is what I said in the previous calls. What I said was, I feel we will be able to convert 55%-60% of EBITDA to cash normally in a normal year.
Last year, net of tax, I think we converted close to 80%, right? I also do not think that should be normal, and that should be expected all the time. We will try our best to really wrap up deliveries and collect as quickly as we can, but I feel the normal number is somewhere between that 60%-80% at the pace at which we are growing, right? I think that is how to look at cash flow. I mean, if there is something very, very specific, I am happy to answer that, but I think the team did a fantastic job, especially in the second half of the year. Just the sheer scale of project deliveries and the size of the projects that we have taken on, it keeps on increasing every year.
I think we did a fantastic job in terms of, I mean, I would let you decide that, but I think the team did a fantastic job in terms of at least wrapping up the deliveries and converting projects into cash.
Fair enough. I take the details offline from you on FCF. Just one data point was, if you can highlight what would be the portion of license revenues and implementation/consulting revenues, if at all there are, would you like to quantify that? Or if not quantify, if you can just give us some sense as to which division do you place those in? Our product license revenues and implementation revenues is what I'm checking.
You mean what was the license revenue in Q4 or in full year?
Yes. So you can give me any number. For the full year, how much was our license revenue, and how much was our implementation revenue for our core banking products like iCashPro, etc.?
Look, on the banking products, I would say license revenue was something in the range of 30%. Some of it, I would say roughly half of it coming from new logos, the other half coming from existing accounts, new module sales, and something.
30% of banking or 30% of overall?
No, no, banking.
Okay. Okay. Understood. So 30% is licensing, as you said.
Yeah, 30% is license, and that is split roughly half and half between existing and new.
Understood. Thanks a lot, gentlemen. I'll come back in the queue.
Thanks, Vimal.
Thank you, sir. Participants, we request you to limit to two questions per participant. The next question comes from Mr. Anmol Garg. Please introduce the firm you represent. I now invite you to accept the prompt on your screen, unmute your audio and video, and ask the questions or give comments.
Yeah, hi. I hope I'm audible.
Yeah, I'm audible.
Hey, hi, Ashish. Ashish, I had a couple of things I wanted to understand. Firstly, if we look at this quarter, I think there were two large projects which were kind of ramping up. One was the Panvel Municipal one, and I think the other was the SBI one. Now, I would assume that a large, decent amount of revenue should be coming out of both these projects, given that these projects were larger in sizes. However, if I look at our banking space where the SBI contract would be executing, that particular piece has declined for us in this quarter. This is despite, I'm assuming, one month of incremental Fenixys revenue that would have come in this quarter, which would be around INR 6-7 crore or so. What exactly has led to this dip in the banking space?
Is there any project which has kind of ramped down during this particular quarter which might have completion of that particular project?
Okay. Thanks, Anmol. Look, you're right about the large projects. So Panvel, there's a lot of execution that happened in Q4, did translate to revenue. SBI, there is a lot of execution that's been happening right through the year, and some of it has translated into revenue, but it is a multi-phase delivery. To be fair, I think that one from a revenue contribution standpoint, a lot of it flows into this year, right? There is no real ramp down on the banking side, but I think right now there is just a lot of projects going on in [Panvel] that need to translate in the first half of this year in terms of actual finishing up of the projects. There is a number of deals, large deals in the Middle East that need to get executed.
There were wins in Sri Lanka that need to get executed. There's obviously the large projects in India that need to get executed. There were lending wins in Southeast Asia that need to get executed on. I think there's just a lot of projects going on in Panvel on the banking side that need to finish up into Q1 and Q2 and sort of convert. It's not that they've not been converting into revenue, but those have been the initial milestones, I think, and including SBI as well. I think there's a while, I think the team has done a fantastic job in terms of kind of executing on it, but a lot of execution still needs to happen in the first half of this year. I think that is the sort of overall thing. There's no real, from a project standpoint, there's only a ramp up.
There's actually no real ramp down. The number of projects we're executing in Panvel today, and if you compare that to 12 months back, that's probably 70% or 80% more than what it was. There's just a lot of new projects, a lot of projects sort of happening on the banking side in Panvel right now, and they'll all convert to revenue as the milestones allow, right? I think there is not a lot to be read from one quarter to next in terms of revenue. I think we should always look at it in three, four-quarter chunks because that's how project executions happen. There is really, I would not read anything into a sort of movement from one quarter to the next.
Understood. Understood, Ashish. From that perspective, should we assume that some of the projects which would be started to execute in FY 2026, that can possibly excel banking growth faster than that of TIG in FY 2026? Does your 30% growth guidance mean that the banking might grow at a faster pace versus TIG over the next year?
If you look at last year, banking grew 34%, TIG grew 30%. It is not a meaningful difference in growth rates. It sort of basically comes down to execution. TIG did have a slow start. How would it pan out next year? I would say both the businesses would be more or less neck on neck. Banking may excel a little bit faster, but not by a very large number. I think banking software business, I do not know of any banking software business, at least in the peer group that is growing at 34%-35%. I think that is a very, very strong level of growth. I would hesitate to, I mean, I am fine in a quarter or two going to a 40% or a 45%, but I would hesitate to really meaningfully accelerate that business growth.
I think there is a fundamental risk in trying to accelerate fast beyond the 34%-35% growth we are already doing. I would not set the expectation that that will grow. I think we did discuss a little while back, things like Fenixys, etc., contributing to something addition. I think that is possible. Organically, I would really hesitate to accelerate beyond the 34%-35% we are at, but inorganically, probably we could.
Understood. One last thing from my end. We have done a fantastic job in terms of the OCF generation for the second half of this year. First half was negative, but we have really pulled it off in the second half. Would it be right to assume that is there any seasonality in our OCF, that the second half of the year usually has better cash flows versus the first half of the year? Also, if you can tell me what exactly led to strong kind of OCF in the second half of the year versus the first half?
Yeah. Look, I think good question. I think we've discussed this probably over the last couple of years as well. I think most of the times when we get into the year, once you get to the middle of the year, there'll always be a little bit of stress on cash. By the time we get to the end of the year, we'll do a lot of conversions. I think the reason for that, by and large, is a lot of sales happens in Q4. A lot of project execution takes 10- 12 months. By the time we get to the next Q4, a lot of execution is getting done, a lot of cash is getting collected, right? I think to that extent, there'll be some seasonality in terms of collections and converting most of that delivery to cash.
I think that is just a natural skew in the business because a lot of sales happens Q3, Q4, hence a lot of the project happens the next year Q4, right? Mostly Q4 and not Q3. Yeah, I mean, to that extent, I think we will have the same thing. We have had the same thing the last couple of years. By the time you reach the middle of the year, there is always a little bit of stress while the projects are in the middle. By the time we get to Q4, a lot of that gets converted to cash.
Understood. Understood. Thanks, Ashish, for answering my questions. Best of luck.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Participants, we request you to limit to two questions per participant. The next question comes from Debashish Mazumdar. Please introduce the firm you represent. I now invite you to accept the prompt on your screen, unmute your audio and video, and ask the question or give comments. Mr. Debashish, please go ahead with your question, sir.
Ashish, can you hear me?
Hey, Debashish. Hi.
Hi. Good evening. I have two, three questions. First, on the segmental performance, are two reported segments normally mastered on five, six segments under it? If you can kind of give us some idea and understanding that how those subsegments have delivered last year and what is the expectation going forward? When I say subsegments, in case of banking, I'm trying to understand software and hardware. In case of TIG, I want to understand the travel and the data center piece of it. If you have some more subsegments, that would be very helpful.
Yeah, Debashish. Look, you're right. I think both these segments have roughly half a dozen P&Ls under them. Each of the P&L is, of course, responsible for its own delivery. On the banking side, I would not, I think the hardware and software view is a hard one. I mean, there's not that much hardware on the banking side anyways. It's either a sort of a one-off licensed revenue versus software and service versus services revenue. More of a one-off versus what is recurring or near recurring. I would say that's roughly 35%, 65%. So 35% on the one-off side and 65% on the recurring or near recurring side. I think banking, the way I would look at performance is what are the product lines that are growing? I think transaction banking is really the standout line.
We have an astonishingly high win rate in that space. We probably won more deals than anyone else in that space in Asia. The next vector of growth for us is to expand more aggressively to Southeast Asia and in Europe. Lending has grown very strongly. We've increasingly become a full spectrum lending player. We were always very strong, the leaders in Asia on the corporate lending side. Now with Omnifin, we've expanded into the retail lending, digital lending side. I think that side again continues to grow for both corporate as well as the retail side of the business. The growth factor is to keep doubling down on the home markets in Asia, but expand into Europe. The other lines which have grown, Interact, for example, has grown pretty strongly, obviously from a smaller base than lending and transaction banking.
Arya, Arya's AI offerings really, I think one, they've grown strongly, but the second is there's just an astonishing amount of demand. We need to really scale that side of the business and really accelerate into FY 2026. On the TIG side, Transit, I think continues to grow strongly. We, of course, announced the big wins in India with Delhi Metro and Chennai Metro. I mean, more than big, that's very prestigious, even the homegrown IP. We probably today have one of the most integrated end-to-end stack in the transit space, transit payment space. We have probably one of the most advanced R&D setup in terms of building out our own IP, both on the hardware side as well as the software side. We've ironed out the chain in terms of manufacturing as well.
We are really a very strong, very efficient player in that space who will increasingly scale and grow globally. We're doing well in Americas. We're beginning to do well in Europe. We are picking up larger deals in India. I think, again, the pipeline is clearly really strong. You see us with a lot more significant wins on the transit side. It grew well last year. It's also beginning to, I think the economics with our scale now is beginning to show. That will again continue, the economic model will continue to get stronger as we scale that business. The data center side, I mean, really that is a space where there is more demand than anyone can meet. It's more a question of, I think we continue to grow at 30% plus in that space.
That is what we will continue to do, be very selective on the business that we take on. We have one of the strongest data center design teams in the country today. We will continue to leverage that to go for the more complex high margin work. We will continue to work towards building out our own IP in that space as well so that we can get the non-linear economics like we get on the transit side now, right? I think that is essentially what I would say. Both the businesses are key growth drivers for the TIG side. I think we feel very good about meaningfully growing both those things.
Sure. Sure. Good to hear that. Just a follow-up on this question. If we see the last one, one and a half years, in case of banking licenses, kind of tied up with few large global players to be able to get into the global markets more effectively or efficiently. At the same time, if I see the TIG space, we have tied up with Mastercard for certain execution, then we also enter into the travel space of U.S. with one particular city. Just trying to get some sense that despite all those initial wins, if I see my India as percentage of revenue, it has gone up. Just trying to understand, were those initial successes not followed, or is it like India has so much potential and growth that we focused back on Indian market and impact market, which is our strong area?
Okay, good question. Look, for us, it's not a question of prioritizing one over the other. It's more a question of what will maximize the long term. I mean, how do we really live up to the potential size of the business, which really means over the long run, we do want to be present in most spaces where the demand is. I don't think there's a meaningful change in India versus the world. I think it's roughly been 60/40 for some time. And I think it will go up or down one or two points depending on execution, but that's not a meaningful shift in either direction. I think for any business growing at 30%-35%-40%, I don't think you can look at a 1% shift and sort of say that it's indicative of anything.
I think if it's indicative of anything, it's just that we don't know what we don't know and the execution changes. I think we've not been able to meaningfully change that mix mainly because while the global side has grown strongly, you are right, India continues to grow very, very strongly. There is just so much demand in India that if you really did the mix, it's sort of the global side grows 30%, India also grows 30%, right? I think that's been the story over the last three years. Four years back when we started this pivot, in 2021, we were a INR 375 crore business. This year, we're guiding to a INR 1,550, something between INR 1,550 and a little bit more than that. You basically got up four times since then. The 40% global buy has also gone up four times.
The 60% Indian buy has also gone up four times, right? I think will that mix change? I feel it will this year thanks to a little bit more growth in Europe, a little bit more growth in the U.S.. It will probably shift a little bit now. I think none of it is by design. Our long-term goal is think of Aurionpro as a fairly decentralized group of 12-13 odd P&Ls. We have already been to two large segments. Each of these products has its own destiny. Each of these products has its own market. The only thing that we think about is how do I maximize the potential for this product? Part of that potential lies in leveraging the market. Probably part of it lies in India. For individual products, the mix is different.
Some products may be 70% outside of India and only 30% India. Corporate lending is like 95% outside of India and only 5% in India, right? It varies from product to product. By and large, the goal is to maximize the potential outcome for each of the products. There is no design of India versus the world or something like that. Wherever the potential for the product is, is where we will grow it. The mix has not changed meaningfully. I would sort of contest that 1% up or down point a little bit. It will change this year thanks to Fenixys and Europe expansion, all that stuff. India will still grow. I do not see any slowdown happening on the India side.
Sure. Understood. I just asked this question because if you see most of your product peers originated out of India, they always kind of suffered in creating impact at the global level. After a certain point, they were not able to scale global businesses. Once you articulated the strategies of kind of global partnerships and those scale models, I thought that the global business would be scaling much faster than, or at least would scale much more longer than my competition would have faced the problem in the past, or even facing the problem today. Is my understanding correct that those models are working? Because as you rightly said, that all said and done, the global businesses are growing at 30%-35%, which is not the case for other companies. Just trying to understand, are those models that you initially struck deal with, are those working?
They are kind of hitting the success for us.
Look, I do not know of any peers who are growing at 30%-35%. Educate me. By and large, I would say the formula that we have is certainly working, right? There is no one unique path to getting to that superiority when it comes to a business model or when it comes to a product, right? I think ultimately we have a playbook. That playbook involves being a wider ecosystem player that can work together with a lot of other Fintech vendors. That is slightly different from what a lot of other firms in the industry have chosen to do. I believe strongly in the power of operating in that open ecosystem, in the power of being collaborative with other vendors so that the sum of the value that we add together for the end customer is a lot more than the individual parts, right?
To that extent, we will always be very collaborative with a lot of other large Fintech vendors. We will also build our solutions in a way that they can play in the wider ecosystem, right? It does not mean that our organic sales channel is not growing or not expanding. I think we've expanded that very methodically. We have a channel that probably is way more efficient than, I would say, at least the industry on average. I do not just mean the Indian peers. I mean, we really benchmark ourselves against the Indian peers. By most of the global Fintech vendors, I think our channel has proven to be probably more effective than average. That will continue to be the case.
The additional leverage that we get from collaborating with some of the other vendors, whether it's on the TIG side, whether it's Transit, whether it's relationships like Mastercard, relationships like Finastra or Murex, I think we'll continue to leverage those, right? That will add to the effectiveness of the channel overall. I think, I mean, the proof really is in the last four years of execution. I don't know who else has grown 30% plus four years in a row, right? Whether longer term this model will work, time will tell, right? We will do our best to execute as effectively as we can. We feel confident we have a superior model. We feel confident we have the talent and the team and the strategy to build superior products. Ultimately, a lot of success in this industry starts and ends with product superiority.
To get to the best product in the world, a lot of other problems get taken care of, whether it is collaboration through channel or your own direct sales team. A lot of success starts and ends with product superiority. We know and we are increasingly proving that we know how to build products which can exceed everything else in the market. That is what we are focused on. Longer term success, let us see. Time will tell.
Great. Great. Can I go with one last question?
Sir, sorry to interrupt you. Can you please join back the queue, sir?
No problem. Thank you so much. Thanks, Ashish. All the best.
Thank you, sir. We will now take a few questions from chat. I hand it over to Ms. Ashwi. Over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Madhuri. One question from Mr. Varun Mohanraj. We are currently using Arya.ai for providing AI capabilities to our Fintech products. What is our three-year strategy for Arya.ai? Will we be able to provide AI capability for third-party products outside Aurionpro? I wanted to understand the thought process behind Arya.ai for the next three years.
Hey, Varun. Hi. Thanks. Look, the goal behind what we are trying to do on the AI side is the following. For the last couple of years, we've been saying that, and slowly, the industry is coming around to that logic, that bulk of the value creation when it comes to AI, and hence bulk of the value capture, will happen on the application layer. This is where you have large banks, large financial institutions, large enterprises using real applications to run their actual business process that creates value in the enterprise. This is where the application of intelligence will add value. We have been in the enterprise application space for a long time. We understand that space very, very well. And Arya.ai brings really grown-up, mature capability to help bring these interventions on an application chain, right?
Which is where if you go at 100,000-foot post applications, you've got a front end, you've got some sort of a deal entry scheme, you've got a workflow where there's a whole bunch of approvals, checks, decisions getting done, you've got a back office, you've got record-keeping on the side, right? If you can really bring together every decision point of the workflow with the kind of intelligence that you need, it could be a full-on agent, it could be a blend of rules and ML, it could be a human getting an input from an ML model. That is where we really sort of enable the application layer. That is one leg of value addition for us, which is where we feel we have a more mature capability than anyone else that we know of in terms of enabling that.
I mean, anyone else that we know of in the application space, this is where Arya.ai adds huge value. Will we do that for other products? Probably not. Are we doing that for our products? Yes. Is that showing up in terms of win rates? Absolutely, yes. The reason we have win rates which lead the market today, a lot of it is that because we lead, whether it's transaction banking or this lending, we lead in terms of bringing out AI-related products to the market. That is leg number one. The other space where we do feel we can make a significant impact, we can come up with a real breakthrough result is AI explainability, is AI interpretability. With my team, I think we run one of the most advanced AI explainability labs on the planet today. Probably one of the top five research teams.
We're publishing out a lot of original research. We believe that is an area which is really needed in terms of especially the regulated industries. If you look at banking, look at insurance, it's not just a question of getting a model to give you an intelligent output. Data to model is easy. Model to production is very, very hard. How do you really convince the regulators that what is coming out of that? How do you account for bias? How do you account for really the accuracy, compliance regulations, all that stuff, right? I think this is where at least in India, we're probably the only ones publishing original research in the space. We're collaborating with a lot. We extended the lab out to Paris. I think this is an area where we can absolutely try to lead the world in terms of where this goes.
That is sort of over the next few years going to be a significant leg of expansion for us on the AI side, right? The third major area is the enterprise AI app topics, which is where we go in and work at an enterprise level, not at an application level in terms of bringing in AI capabilities. We have done a lot of work around specialized language models. We have done a lot of work around pre-trained models which come out through Apex, which is again, we have got a fairly large catalog there. Work with probably 100+ clients in various shapes or form on that right now, right? That is the third area we will add value, right? I think overall, this is still a game in its first over. A lot of value creation lies in the future. A lot of value expectation is probably not correct.
I think as we play this out over the next few years, this will be a very significant driver of growth for us. I know everyone sort of wants to put a number against it, right? On how big can this be, how many thousands of crores can this be, and all that stuff. We are really not in that game. I think it will grow strongly this year. The applications will generate a lot more everywhere because of Arya.ai interventions. We play this forward the next three, four years. I think our plan will be to really generate some breakthroughs in this space and be one of the top firms globally when it comes to operating in the regulated industries on the enterprise AI side, right? We will play to win. We do not know how big the prize is.
I don't think anyone knows how big the prize is. We're playing for it. We'll play for it with a lot of energy and a lot of investment.
Thank you, sir. The last question comes from Mr. Rajmohan. Please introduce the firm you represent. I now invite you to accept the prompt on your screen, unmute your audio and video, and ask the question or give comments. Mr. Rajmohan, please go ahead with your question, sir.
Yeah, am I audible?
Yeah, hi, Rajmohan.
Yeah, hi. Thank you for the opportunity, Ashish. Congratulations on yet another robust quarter as well as year. You have in the past indicated one of the biggest factors occupying management mind space is finding the right talent and in ample numbers. You also indicated capacity constraints to an earlier answer in this call. In this context, how is the progress on the ground in terms of getting talent? Can you give some color on whether the leadership bandwidth that you currently have is enough to hit that point of inflection? It is only an expanded team that is needed for execution.
Hey, Rajmohan, it's a great question. I think both those continue to be sort of the biggest determinants of success, I suppose, as we go. I think we've built out the first-rate management team. We're probably one of the very few firms who really gets CVs from the top global Fintech vendors, and that too very, very senior-level CVs, right? We built out the whole Europe setup. Right now, if you look at it, it's extremely senior talent. Most of them worked for me in the past. I know personally that they're talented and sort of handpicked by me, come in and build out the channel. Very, very strong people with CVs from the large global Fintech vendors. Same thing in Asia when we're building the channel out.
We really handpicked the people who came in in terms of running the setup in APAC, MBA, Southeast Asian companies, etc. I think to some extent, we are really very attractive to the real top talent in the industry who sees us as a very different, a very R&D-focused, very client-focused firm trying to build out a global enterprise Fintech player with a difference relative to the large global Fintech vendors who obviously, they are all very good. Some of them have had experiences that I really like, but are very large. Probably the room for innovation is less while we move fast. The room for innovation is a lot more. We really build out top-tier products without too much bureaucracy around it.
The old, decent, place-nature of Aurionpro also helps because instead of big general managers writing all sorts of things, you can actually focus on the product, focus on the customer at a much more micro level. It allows you to bring in a lot more better quality talent. I think we have done very, very well in terms of the talent we brought on, the senior managers we brought on so far. We are still an INR 1,200-crore firm. Do we have the talent when we will be an INR 5,000-crore firm? Do we have the talent to run an INR 3,000-crore firm? Probably not, right? We will need to continue to work on this, right? I do not want to really understate the significance of this challenge. What we are trying to do is something that has not been done before, to my knowledge at least.
There are no scaled-up Asian enterprise tech players who play on a global scale. There are none that I know of. We're still a tiny mosquito in a giant industry. We are a very competitive, very fierce mosquito, but we're still tiny. As we grow, we will need to be very attractive to top-tier talent who really wants to come and do their life's work in a place like us. Building of software is not exceptionally hard. The difference between teams which manage to build the best product in the world and the teams which look like they're doing the same thing but never succeed is knowing what that best product in the world looks like. That knowing comes from talent, right? I think it will continue to be a challenge. It will continue to be my number one mind space item.
I think we are better than most of the peer group for the scale that we are at. This is something that you tackle all the time as we grow and will continue to focus on it. I mean, it's a very long answer to this question, but I think this is the single biggest determinant of success. We will stay focused on it.
Thanks for this answer, Ashish. I think you will also create a virtuous cycle as you keep growing bigger to attract probably better talent. My second question was, you have indicated too many of our products firmly on the path to becoming industry leaders in the domain in your comments in the earnings release. Though broadly, we know the products like corporate transaction banking, AI, open-loop, data centers, these are in all. Can you name the top few products? As we complete one more quarter and one more year for that matter, are we more confident on hitting our first inflection within the next three years, which could lead to an excess of the 30%-35% growth that we are robustly doing?
Yeah, look, inflection points are easy to draw on Excel sheets. It's very hard to predict when that happens in real life. I feel confident that some of the products will hit those over the next few years. I will really be overstepping my prediction abilities if I tell you it happens in the next two years or three years. I don't think it works that way. There is no point in me setting expectations that can't be. Which other products? Transaction banking, I am confident we'll have one of the top products in the world. I think we are proving that in terms of win rates. We are proving that in terms of roadmaps over the next two, three years. We've got a very solid game plan. We will really have a solid product.
Corporate lending, we are corporate loan originations, collateral management of the banking book, limit management of the banking book. We have the top product in Asia today. I do not think it is a big stretch to go out and make it the best product in the world. It does not mean we will be top by market share. In this business, displacement does not happen so easily. We will get to one of the top products in the world on the lending side. Transit, again, I feel very, very confident. With the AI offerings around Arya, I feel confident we have a really top team with top talent going after a meaningful problem. They have the talent to get there. I mean, the world is full of, there are like 10 million people with one year of experience on AI.
There are a handful of teams which really have been focused on this for the last 12 years in the financial services world. This is the real deal. I feel that the Arya team will really create breakthroughs as we go, right? I think those are the ones I would list down as products, if you say, which can really get to the top globally. When do those inflection points happen? Will it happen for some products? I feel confident it will. When will it happen? I mean, you do not know what you do not know.
That's great. Final question is, in Arya.ai, we have acquired 67% in a cash deal. Is the balance 33% held by Vinay and his co-promoters? Are they also showing any inclination to convert their holding in Arya.ai into Aurionpro shares, or will they be cashing out?
That's not something I can comment on. Look, I think both the co-founders are extremely motivated to build out on the top of the world. What is the inclination here? It's not worth this as a challenge.
Thanks a ton, Ashish. You really inspire us. Best wishes.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir. There are no further questions. I now hand over the floor to Mr. Ashish Rai for the closing remarks.
Thanks, everyone. Last year was good. We know what we have to do. We'll stay focused on building out the global player that we set out to build. I look forward to seeing you next quarter. Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference. Thank you for your participation. You may leave the meeting.