Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Aniruddha Joshi from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Joshi.
Yeah, thanks, Renju. On behalf of ICICI Securities, we all welcome you to Q4 FY 2024 and FY 2024 results conference call of Borosil Limited. We have with us today senior management, represented by Mr. Shreevar Kheruka, Managing Director and CEO, Mr. Anand Sultania, CFO, and Mr. Balesh Talapady, Vice President, Investor Relations and Business Analysis. Now, I hand over to the call to the management for the initial comments on the quarterly as well as annual performance, and then we will open the floor for question and answer session. Thanks, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Aniruddha , and ICICI Securities for arranging this call. Good afternoon to every one of you. We are delighted to be communicating with you once again from Borosil. Borosil Limited board approved the company's financial results for Q4 FY 2024 and full- year FY 2024 on 24th of May, 2024. Our results and an updated presentation has been sent to the stock exchanges and have also been uploaded on the company's website. We had earlier announced our plan to restructure the company's consumer and scientific business into two distinct publicly listed entities through a composite arrangement scheme. The appointed date for the scheme was 1st April, 2022, and the scheme has been made effective from 2nd December, 2023. And pursuant to the scheme, the scientific and industrial products business of the company shall emerge into Borosil Scientific Limited.
At this point in time, we still await regulatory approvals for Borosil Scientific Limited for listing on the stock exchanges, which is now expected to be completed by middle of June, 2024. In today's call, we shall focus and discuss about Borosil Limited, which houses our consumer products business. We are very pleased that Borosil Limited had a fantastic year, 2023- 2024. Our consolidated revenues from operations for FY 2024 was INR 942.3 crores, as against INR 741.6 crores last year, which is an industry-leading growth of 27% over the same period last year. I would like to acknowledge and thank the entire Borosil team, along with our stakeholders, including customers, suppliers, and shareholders, for contributing towards this growth.
Your dedication, not just over the past year, but in the years prior, too, has built a strong foundation and enabled the execution of a robust strategy that has brought us to where we are today. I'm very proud of the team's achievements and I'm very also excited for the future. During the year, the company achieved a consolidated EBITDA before exceptional one-time items and investment income of INR 144.9 crores, as against INR 81.6 crores last year. The EBITDA margin was 15.4% in FY 2024, as against 11% in the previous year. Here, I would also like to mention that the other income includes INR 5.5 crores of shared service support income, the underlying expenses of which are reported under total expenses.
That is shared service for our other group companies, the cost of which is borne by Borosil Limited and is recovered by way of other income. Profit before tax during FY 2024 was INR 87.8 crores as against INR 62 crores in FY 2022. Last year, we had an insurance claim resulting in an exceptional gain of INR 9.33 crores and one-time net gain of INR 3.85 crores. The investment income is higher by about INR 4.32 crores during FY 2024 compared to last year, whereas depreciation and finance costs are much higher this year by about INR 32.6 crores, primarily due to the new opal furnace commissioning during Q4 of FY 2023.
During FY 2024, Borosil recorded a consolidated profit after tax of INR 65.9 crores, as against, compared to INR 51.9 crores in the previous year. Coming to our business-wide performance, Borosil's consumer business, comprising glassware products and non-glassware products under the brand Borosil, and its opalware range under the brand Lara, are the two main, you know, separate brands that we have. Lara opalware is a dining and tableware range built for contemporary designs and impeccable finish, and this is INR 357.7 crores in FY 2024, as against INR 260.6 crores in FY 2022, marking a significant increase of 37% from the previous year.
Our glassware products, comprising of microwavables, serving ware, glass tumblers, and Borosil lunch boxes, as well as glass storage, experienced a growth of 11.3%, reaching INR 198 crores in revenue, as against INR 137.9 crores in FY 2022. Our non-glassware products, comprising of small home appliances, insulated bottles and flasks, cookware, this also received a better growth of 27.5%, generating a turnover of INR 386.5 crores as against INR 260.6 crores in FY 2022. The strong performance across all our categories underscores the successful execution of our strategy to broaden the Borosil brand's offering to cater to diverse kitchen and serving needs in Indian households. It also reflects the enduring equity and appeal of the Borosil brand across different product ranges.
Over the past few years, Borosil's consumer business has successfully diversified beyond its primary focus on microwavable glass products, and has established three robust pillars that ensure sustainable future of growth. The glassware, opalware, and non-glassware verticals have all reached significant sizes and are poised for further expansion as their penetration and usage frequency increase. In FY 2024, Borosil has launched thousands of new SKUs across our, these three ranges, amongst which include, Borosil's new Artisan Series, Borosilicate jars and containers, Coffeemate, Air Fryers, and Gas Stoves, which have been well accepted by customers. Furthermore, new designs in opalware, opalware lunch boxes and storage sets, Kool Hugs mugs have gained high traction amongst users. Borosil continuously seeks to increase its digital presence and engagement, and also engage in brand associations. We have entered into brand endorsement arrangement with celebrity chef Harpal Singh Sokhi.
For the high style range in glass and bottles, Borosil has been the hydration partner to the Indian Olympic Association for the Paris Olympics, coming up shortly. To enhance brand awareness and strengthen brand recall, Borosil utilizes a diverse array of promotional and marketing efforts, including in-shop displays, merchandising, advertisements in print as well as social media, retail branding and product branding. The organization has developed a strong brand identity through effective brand advertisement and marketing campaign, including the Borosil OTG campaign as well as the Lara Dutta campaign. Borosil has a well-established tribal base, which is continuously growing on all digital media platforms. We also run automated campaigns on Google , service stream, as well as campaigns across Facebook and YouTube on a periodic basis. The brand is further actively promoted through various influencers across food and lifestyle sections.
Coming to the balance sheet, average operating capital employed in the business, that is, capital employed without CWIP and investments, was INR 601.4 crores. During FY 2024, the company earned an operating profit again before exceptional and one-time items and before interest investment of INR 93 crores, translating into an annualized operational ROCE of 15.1%. The ROCE is expected to increase going forward with improved margins as we enhance the manufacturing base, as well as higher capacity utilization from our new manufacturing capacities. As of 31st March , 2024, the company has a, has a net debt of INR 159.4 crores. Investments as on date are INR 92.3 crores. Our primary goal, goal at the moment is to expand our brand franchise.
We are focusing on upgrading and promoting consumers from plastic and melamine to glass storage and opalware, while also increasing adoption of glassware and cookware products. To broaden our collection, we continue to introduce new items, including portable high-grade steel products as well as home appliances. Our aim is to establish Borosil and Lara as go-to brands in the food industry for food storage, preparation, cooking, heating, and serving needs. As previously communicated, our new borosilicate facility in Jaipur, with a capacity of 25,000 tons, was commissioned on January 31st of 2024. Further, we are pleased to announce that commercial production at this facility began on March 28, 2024. This initiative will reduce our dependence on imports, enhance our product offering, and meet domestic as well as international demand for borosilicate glass cookware and provide a competitive edge through lower production costs.
Borosil Limited is committed to adhering to sustainability principles and emphasizing on responsible business practices. In this regard, we have also developed an ESG roadmap that sets significant targets for the company in environmental, social, and governance sections. The progress is regularly monitored and reported to key stakeholders through periodic reviews. We have created and modified various policies, such as ESG policy, our sustainable supply chain policy, and equal opportunity policy, et cetera, to name a few. We have also formulated and deployed a code of conduct for sustainable supply chain practices. We have communicated our ESG goals and related initiatives in our annual and CSR reports. This year, we have taken a step ahead and have proposed an integrated reporting framework to showcase our ESG efforts. We remain highly optimistic about the medium-term prospects for our consumer business.
While we may encounter a slow growth and cautious consumer area, which is mostly cyclical in nature, we anticipate robust growth in our sector due to favorable long-term trends. Our primary focus will be on expanding our capacities, launching innovative new products, and optimizing our supply chain and marketing channels. Additionally, we will continue to invest in enhancing our brand visibility. Thank you for your attention. With that, I'd like to open the floor for questions.
Should we open the floor for questions?
Yes, please.
All right. Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on your touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question comes from the line of Pranay Roop Chatterjee with Burman Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon. Am I audible?
Yes, please.
Yeah. So the first question is with respect to the FY 2025 growth outlook for both consumer glass and opalware. On consumer glass, growth has been around 11% this year. Do you expect the next year to be on similar fashion, or as the utilization increases, the growth will be much stronger? And secondly, opalware, it seems that the volumes are more or less at peak utilization. So how much growth can be expected, you know, for the next year?
Yeah, so, as far as the glassware business is concerned, now that we have our new manufacturing facility, I do expect growth to be substantially higher than the 11% to 12% we had last year. The reason being, as I mentioned, that we are able, in the past also, we, we can add lots of new products, and we have also some pricing advantages with our own manufacturing. Our goal is to make it a everyday use item, you know, glass to make, be an everyday use item. And, for that, you know, in some products, we would like to offer pricing which is more competitive. And, I can tell you that overall, glassware will definitely be, should, you know, drive growth this year.
Coming to Opalware, we are at about 80% capacity utilization, and I think we have a good shot at going to closer to the 100% level. So we do have, you know, room to grow. But, you know, rather than commenting year- to- year, I would say that broadly, I've always been, you know, mentioning a 15% to s20% kind of CAGR growth. And, and I think we have been slightly ahead of that. But I would expect that there should not be any change in the, you know, medium-term, say, growth forecast.
Got it, sir. That is helpful. Next thing, on your cost base, if I compare Q3 2024 to Q4 2024, employee expenses and other expenses have gone up by around INR 12 crores, and depreciation is up by around INR 3 crores. So, if you could help us understand, what has led to this, if there is any bonus payment that has been recorded, and if any of the new furnace, borosilicate pressware furnace costs have already been booked in Q4?
Yeah, I think the answer, you, you already answered the question across yourself. It's because of our, and in fact, I alluded to it in my opening remarks. Now, Borosil Group has three, almost, the third listed, the third company will be listed soon, but basically we're operating as if we have three listed entities. And Borosil Limited has all the support functions are at Borosil Limited, and Borosil Limited recovers the costs of these functions, which are given to Borosil Scientific as well as Borosil Renewables, and that comes as other income. So whatever we recover comes in as other income, whereas the expenses , you know, employee cost of the relevant head.
So therefore, the costs do look a bit inflated, because this you know has started in the last quarter, actually, this whole shared services function. So it's showing a little bit higher, but you have to offset some other income against these expenses, which will give you a fair, you know, a fair picture. Secondly, yes, definitely we did have bonuses that we have given because we had a good year, so there is some amount of one-time aspect to that, which had come in. And as you rightly mentioned, depreciation also has gone up. So Q4 numbers have been a little bit more muted, but those are, as I mentioned, you have to take some amount of other income.
Whatever overall EBITDA margins we have maintained, I think that's sustainable and will also grow in the coming years.
Got it, sir. If you could just specifically comment on the new furnace, because that's going to change the complexion of the P&L, at least in the next couple of quarters.
Have you already booked any cost? I'm talking employee, other expenses and depreciation, for that one.
Yeah, employee costs have. So look, there are quite a few employees which were hired many months ago, and they have already been baked into the system, okay? But, I think more the employee cost is a small fraction. The challenge with any production line is always, let's say, the ramp up to full efficiency. So we are not there yet, and it will take maybe two or three quarters for us to achieve the full efficiency. So more than employee costs, I think you know, power and fuel, while we are expanding it, you know, the costs, the efficiency being lower, there'll be slightly higher inflated power and fuel costs. Employee costs, like I said, would not be materially different, going forward.
Of course, everybody gets increments, so that, that may, that there will be some increment associated with it. But, the other expenses, let's say the fixed overhead expenses, will be spread over a smaller base that just till we achieve the full efficiency. So that will impact, at least in that section of the business for, you know, two, three quarters, I would say. It's hard for me to elaborate on the quantum, because I don't know it myself, but, there will be some impact.
Got it. If I talk in , so my last question is, if I talk in terms of full year, margins, right? For your, consumer division. If I see in FY 2024, your full year EBITDA margin was around, 14% pre other income. Obviously, some amount of other income needs to be taken, so probably a few bits more. This 14% margin, when I think about it from a next year perspective, where H1 is going to be impacted and probably as utilization increases, the margins will improve. Should we expect a margin hit, decline, improvement? If you can give some directional sense for the next year as a whole, based on your projections.
So I think this year, the EBITDA margin was 15.4%. If you net off, you know, the other , I think the relevant point, point of other income versus the extra cost. So actually, our EBITDA margin for our operations was 15.4% in this year, in the FY 2024. Look, it's hard for me to give you specific numbers for FY 2025. All I can say is that the borosilicate furnace that we added, short term may have some impact, but I would say it would dramatically help improve EBITDA in the, in, say, the coming year. And now, when it starts, when we are able to, you know, reach the full efficiency, like I take it, two or three quarters.
But once we hit full efficiency and our sales, you know, we are seeing good traction there, if we're able to do the, you know, sell the tonnages that are coming from there, I think our EBITDA margin will substantially improve. In the short run, in the first two, three quarters, what is the impact, whether next will it reduce the EBITDA margin or will, you know, we'll be able to sustain this? It's very hard for me to be specific about it, and I frankly don't even know. It depends on too many other factors. But you know, we are investing in the business from a long-term perspective, and therefore, one or two quarters, when we know the root cause of the challenge, I don't think is that, it's anything that important.
So, I'm afraid I'm unable to share with you the exact number, because I don't know.
Sir, and when you say full efficiency, what utilization would that mean? Like you said, in two to three quarters' time,
75% to 80%. 75%, 75% to 80% would be, you know, we may be at around 50%, 55% now. We'll go to 70% or 80%. So we'll achieve it soon.
Got it, sir. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Kapil Kumar Anupchandia with Sumangal Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. So what is the reason for sharp drop in all categories, when we compare the sales for all three categories to the December quarter, sir?
Well, I think, well, our business is quite a cyclical business, in the sense that, Q3, was Diwali quarter, so actually, in one month, you have more or less two months of sales. Diwali a little bit later this year as well. So I, I would say that is the main reason, but i It would be right to compare Q4 versus Q4 last year.
Okay. That would be the right way to compare. Okay.
Yes. There we have seen sort of significant growth. So I would invite you to look at Q4 versus Q4, owing to the cyclical nature of the business.
Sir, what will be the ramp-up schedule of this new furnace? And at full capacity utilization, we'll be able to manufacture 100% of glass products from that furnace, or still some imports will be there?
Actually, this furnace has three times the capacity of our current sales, so exactly 300%. So we need to grow our business, you know, by almost say, 2.5x or 3x , depending on the price benefits we may give our customers. But in principle, that's the, you know, the capacity is more than enough to manufacture, to compensate for everything that we are buying as far as pressware is concerned. There are some products, glassware products, which are like a blown product, which are very small in volume, which we'll continue to import, and that's because this production is not set up for that. And as far as ramp-up is concerned, like I said before, 6 months to 9 months, I think we should achieve the full efficiency that we expect to achieve.
But to achieve 3x the current sales, we need to capture market means, we
Yeah.
We'll be taking some price action due to lower cost?
Yes, that's right. As I mentioned earlier, that we would definitely give in some categories of products, where we believe we want to replace plastic or steel, we may have to give some benefits, pricing benefits to the customer, end customer. So we would do that, you know, from a strategic perspective, in some categories, in order to grow volume. And our goal is definitely that, or rather our belief is that glass is a healthier alternative to eat out of, and therefore, we should, we want to encourage our customers to switch from plastic and glass to steel.
Is it safe to assume that until the full ramp-up happens, we may have some dip in EBITDA margin in the intervening period?
I would not like to comment on that, because I don't know. Obviously, we, our, our endeavor would not to have any debt and only growing the margins, but there are too many variables here to, you know, to quantify, because this is a small part of the overall business. So whether this will be meaningful, or whether we can avoid it, or whether we can increase our margin, this is something I don't know the answer to this question. It depends on many factors. I would say that once the operations are stabilized, which I'm sure will happen, you know, like I said, in two, three quarters, then the margin will only grow. So what happens, you know, for 3 months, 6 months in the middle is not really that relevant.
Obviously, our endeavor will be to only grow margin, and not have any debt.
And, sir, my last question: So at optimum capacity utilization, this furnace can generate annual sales of how much, means to 3x our annual current sales?
Yeah, for pressware, for pressware products. So, what we show in the, in the, you know, in the presentation is glassware sales. Pressware products is a subsection of it, maybe about 50% of it, so, yeah, 3x our pressware products sales can be done.
Would you repeat? I didn't get it, sir.
Of our total glassware sales, press, the press, you know, press is a way of making glass. You can press it, you can blow it, you can make tubes from it. So, this furnace is a pressware production, so, about half of our glassware sales is coming from press, the press technology, let's say, and we can triple that.
Okay. So, 3x the means one at 1.5x of the current sales, right?
Yeah. Of course, the others will also sell. The other, y ou're right. But the others will also, so we will also increase sale of other products, b ut, yes, you're right, i n principle, you're right.
Okay, sir. Thank you, and all the best for the future.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Aditi Bhatter with Niveshaay. Please go ahead.
Hello. Hi, a very good afternoon to you, sir. Am I audible?
Yes.
Yeah. Sir, so my question's, you know, in line with the Pressware facility, the new facility.
So, what would be the current operational efficiency with this?
At the moment, I think it was about 60%.
Okay. And, I mean, we could obtain an optimum level in 6 months to 7 months, as you mentioned?
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, okay. And so, I believe that we are still importing a certain percentage of products in this division, and what would be that percentage?
We will not import. We import products in other categories. I mean, we have products which we don't manufacture. For example, steel, we don't manufacture, which we import. And like I said, there are some blown products in glass which we don't manufacture, which we will continue to import.
Okay, and that source?
Overall import percentage will drop this year. I think our overall imports will be less than 30%.
Okay, okay. Right.
Maybe
And, s orry?
Maybe even 20%.
Okay, okay. Right. So, like, for this year, all our CapEx that we had planned is, they are operational now, be it Pressware, be it Opalware, everything is operational right now. And I believe we are, we are targeting to achieve the optimum capacity utilization with these, and increasing the margins with that. So, what do you identify as your, you know, major sales driver for this year? I mean, in terms of, you know, revenue guidance, what do you identify as your major sales growth driver?
In terms of product category, or, you know?
In terms of product category.
Yeah, it's like, so glass will definitely be one of the major drivers in terms of growth, revenue growth. And of course, opal, also we have capacity less, so that will also, you know, we should be able to grow that business as well. So the glassware and opalware, I would say, would be the two main drivers of revenue growth this year.
Okay. And for Opalware, are we planning any further capacity addition? Because I believe that we are already running at around 60 to 70 capacity utilization, which we will fulfill by quarter three also, going ahead further.
At this very moment, we have not planned anything, because we are looking at premiumization of our opalware range as well as, you know, running at 100% capacity. So at this very moment, no.
Okay, okay. And so lastly, one of our CapEx, which was put on hold for backward integration, I mean, do we have any guidance for that?
At the moment, that will now come under scientific division. That will not come here, because that's mainly for scientific.
So, but you know, that's on hold only. I don't think we are, at the moment, looking to getting that.
Okay. But that was, you know, helpful for the raw material side of consumer division as well, right?
That's right, that's right. Yeah, that's right. But, at the moment, we are able to source this at very low prices.
So, at this current moment, you know, we would like to, you know, operationally, let's say, stabilize our current production, what we have just done, and maybe w e can relook at that in the coming year.
Okay, okay. Got it. Thank you, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Pratik Bantia with Girik Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello. Yeah, I would just like to know, how much are you going to spend on advertising in the forthcoming years as a percentage of sales?
It's going to be in the 7.5%, 7% to 8%.
In FY 2024, what was that number?
Also same, similar.
Similar. Okay, okay.
Yeah.
That's it, that's it, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Pratik with Shubhlaxmi Research. Please go ahead.
Hi, Shreevar. Am I audible?
Yes, please.
Shreevar, congratulations for the good set of numbers. I just have one question, one question. So, with the company structure now, you know, very, very segregated, is it fair to assume, that, the earlier mixture bandwidth, managerial bandwidth is free now, and there will be a sharper and, you know, a dedicated focus on all three verticals separately? Shreevar, if you can, you know, help us understand from a managerial perspective.
I'm sorry, you're a little bit muffled, but what I understood is you're asking about managerial bandwidth across the businesses. Is that right?
I will quickly repeat my question. Sorry, Shreevar. Is it fair now? Is it good now?
Yeah, better. Better.
Yeah. So, I just want to understand with very well segregated company structure, you know, in three divisions now, well listed. The mixture of bandwidth, which was earlier there, is it, you know, optimally, free now, but for a sharper and dedicated focus?
So frankly, the bandwidth has not changed in one way or the other, because the businesses were already always operated as individual units only. Now, only the legal structure has evolved to reflect the reality what was already present. So in that sense, I would, of course, during this process, for example, now we have a CEO of our scientific business. So to that extent, you know, that gentleman will take more responsibility in terms of the 360 overview of that business. But that's a natural progression and doesn't really have much to do with the particular restructuring per se.
So I don't necessarily know if the bandwidth, if there's any changes, because like I said, we were always operating, and I believe that we have been focusing on each of the businesses to the best of our abilities, independently anyway. So I don't see much change there, frankly.
Understood, Shreevar . So, going ahead, it should be more about the capacity utilization in our consumer business, which should be driving the growth, and margins accordingly?
Yes, I think, yes, absolutely. I believe we have, you know, reasonably strong teams across all our organizations, all our three, you know, I'll say, companies. They are well suited with or without this, let's say, restructuring to drive growth, and I think there's a track record also now of that.
Understood. Very useful. Thank you and all the best, Shreevar. Thanks.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Lakshmi Narayanan with Tunga Investments. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you so much. I think couple of questions. So one is that in the non-glassware category, for selling staples and also some of the other things, like microwave ovens, so how do you call out your differentiation there? Because these are very, very entrenched product lines, and whereas, if you look at it, your right to win is very high in terms of personal ware and the glassware. In non-glassware, how do you call out a clear differentiation strategy there?
Yeah, you know, it's a good question, and I think we debated this a lot before we actually entered the business. And I believe there's, you know, two or three points that we have tried to focus on. The number one is in terms of we have stuck to a premium quality position. Okay? So as I would call it, market premium, we have identified, let's say, all the materials that we use, whether it's appliances or other insulated flask or even the steel serving ware, which we don't manufacture. We have identified the core raw materials to be used. We specified them from our vendors, and we do a rigorous quality control check and ensure that we are getting the best in class of, you know, as we have specified.
The second point is in terms of customer insights. I think the products themselves are made, keeping some customer insights in mind, which customers expect from a brand like Borosil. So for example, our motors will have only copper winding, not aluminum. Okay? As an example, we would, our blades for mixer grinders would be stainless steel 304 grade. You know, others may have different ones. We will have longer cords, which allow people to use, you know, be in kitchens, you know, with the plug to the power points, have more flexibility in putting the appliance in a place away from even the power points. So, I mean, I'm giving you two, three, but there's many such examples. So our focus has been to listen to the customer and then develop the product.
As far as right to win is concerned, I think distribution also plays a role in that, and I think we have a very strong and loyal distribution base. And we finally, after-sales service, you know, I think our after-sales service has a turnaround time of three days across the country. So we respond to customer issues quite rapidly, which is also one of the main reasons why customers, you know, buy from us. And look too, for putting it in the eating, the non-glassware was virtually zero in 2017, if I'm not mistaken, and it's almost an INR 400 crores category. And we have been, you know, posting good growth and probably industry-leading gross margin, although I don't share that data with you, with you know, outsiders.
But in principle, I think we have shown that we have made a good position for ourselves, although definitely we're not market leaders, but we have a good position, yeah.
Across the three different categories, what's the kind of a channel break between the, whichever way you want to look at it, either large format store/e-commerce, as well as, EBOs, not EB, MBOs. So what is the channel mix across all these three different categories?
I would not share the percentages with you, but in principle, I can tell you that general trade is the largest. We do reasonably well. You know, our growth numbers in general trade are quite good. And then e-commerce would be the second largest. In large format stores, we are not that strong.
Okay. And what kind of business come from CSDs?
What sorry?
Business comes from the defense canteen, CSD.
The defense canteen. So there, actually, listing is a big challenge in defense canteens. The listing of products will take a long time, and they only list very few items at a time. So, we are much stronger in glassware in canteens. And recently we've been adding, you know, new SKUs, of course, but we don't have anywhere close to the full range we would like to have in the canteens, because it takes a long time to list. We hope that will change in the future, but, I would not like to share exact numbers with you.
In principle, I would say glassware canteen drives some good wearable glassware.
The non-glassware, I presume is entirely outsourced production, right?
Yes, that's right.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Hitesh Jain with Kotak Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, Shreevar. Congratulations on the growth year. I think we have been outpacing most of the peers, not in the listed, but also in unlisted space. If you can probably share what is, you know, and bulk of this growth is coming from the categories where the level of competition is also very high. So, you did mention about how different Borosil is vis-à-vis the product development, the after-sales service. But then, otherwise, on the sales strategy part, could you just highlight how, what different are we doing vis-à-vis the competition?
Frankly, I tell you, it's a very difficult question for me to answer because there's no one, let's say, there's no one silver bullet. I would say our teams are highly motivated. You know, we have very, we have, in fact, our manpower cost, as you can see, as someone already pointed out, is quite high. So we compensate them well, and we expect, you know, results also from them. And we have, I would say, built a team for a INR 2,000 crores turnover, while we are, you know, INR 900 crores, or even actually before that. So our size of teams are bigger, probably, than our competitors. I think they're hungry, they're quite hungry for success, because their compensation is linked to it.
We also have, you know, ESOP schemes, which we give our people. So I would say we have a very well-motivated team, and it's not one person, it's across the board. And, that's something I believe is a key source of our key, let's say, reason for growth. Because markets keep changing, you know. I would say pricing also is, you know, up and down, you know, it depends, you know, month to month, even region to region. But I think I would just appreciate my team for achieving this number. And I don't believe there's any one product or any one channel or any one, you know, strategy that has given us this growth. Very frankly, that's my honest, answer to your question.
Sure. Within the non-glassware, any specific category where you're seeing a higher growth? I mean, I'm sure you'll not give numbers, but which categories contributed to the higher growth last year in the non-glassware segment?
Bottles in general have done well. You know, let's say, your insulated bottles have done well.
Things like, I think things like your juicers have done well, you know. I think there's a lot of focus on health, healthy products. And, those products have done well for us. But, I would say if you look at the, I mean, I review the growth numbers quite frequently, and I see that, we have, you know, double-digit growth across almost all the products that we are in. So, some, of course, higher than others, but like, yeah, within that, I would say bottles, some appliances like juicers, all would have done very well.
Sure. And this, BIS norms, that have come in for the vacuum flask, will you see that having any impact? Because most of it is imported for us also, right, where the BIS may not be followed.
So the industry as such is dependent on imports, because the local ecosystem is still not developed. It'll take some time. We have also started sourcing locally, this product category. And, if you can see, our working capital has gone up because, we have imported, you know, a reasonable amount of stock for this year, while we develop the local better ecosystem. So that is, so we expect, I mean, it will have a short-term impact, but I think the local ecosystem will also develop quickly. There are already quite a few players who are starting to be in this year. Obviously, the challenge, you know, I would say China, they have built that ecosystem over a long period of time.
Obviously, we won't be that long, but I would say it will take some time to replicate that in terms of new products, you know, new product development specifically, which will be impacted. But, you know, whatever products we're already making, I think getting it made in India is not such a big challenge.
Got it. Got it. And, lastly, on this expansion into Boros, I mean, this furnace that we are setting up. See, we have been in the industry, probably the oldest player in the glassware, right, amongst our peers. There's a big capacity that now we also have. La Opala is also expanding. Cello is expanding on the soda lime side. So, and, you did mention about how you want to, how you aspire to introduce more SKUs, which will probably help you grow the market. Now, when all the three players are expanding, we'll probably try to stock the channel. And, you know, there's a, you know, these are breakable items, right? So there's only limited shelf space that a dealer would have.
Yeah.
You think, you see that as a challenge in terms of stocking, you know, given that all the three players would be equally aggressive to have a scale there?
Well, frankly, I think, I would change the perspective of this question. I don't think we are competing with Cello or La Opala in glass. I think all three of us are competing against plastic, okay? And against steel, in to some, to some extent. And I would say that we have, as a, you know, as an industry, we would have to take away share from unorganized players as well as, from steel and from plastic. That, that would be our target. If we achieve that, we could do much better than taking away share from each other, which is, you know, the, the pie is too small. So I do believe that if we come up with innovative products and good products, then we'll find shelf space. A nd I don't think pricing is the determinant of shelf space, frankly.
The shelf space, the determinant is the value for the customer and other customers coming and asking for the product.
No, when I meant pricing, I meant the dealer incentives that will probably have to be given if you need a shelf space there, right?
I mean, if you look at the history, last few years, all three players have expanded their overall capacity also in the same period of time. I don't think anyone has gone down that road, because, like I said, when everybody knows that in glass, specifically glass manufacturing, is a very high CapEx business, and sometimes you have a lot of maintenance CapEx also. So unless you make margins, you can't sustain the business. So I don't think any of the players have a short-term view on life. And I think this is a mature industry, and they are all, you know, top, I would say, top class, you know, I would say, competitors you have.
So I don't see any short-termism in coming in that way, because even actually in the past, when we were smaller and we expanded from one floor to two, we were expanding 50%. Now when we go from two to three, actually expansion percentage is reducing. So, I mean, I don't see. I think there's a lot of import substitution that will happen, you know, the sales case will take away from imported, and you know, like the non-organized sales as well as maybe plastic. So, I don't think a big problem.
Got it. And lastly, what is the break even capacity or break even utilization for the glassware furnace?
I mean, I specifically don't have an answer for you.
Specifically, I don't have an answer, but broadly in a glass furnace, I would say, rule of thumb, 60%-65%.
Which we plan to hit by Q3 of this year, right?
Yes, absolutely. We should, we should try that at least.
Try the goal.
Sure. Sure. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Ankush Shah with Kesar Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. So apart from the reason which you explained, is there any reason for a sharp increase in working capital?
No, the main reason I would, w ell, there are two reasons. One, I explained the BIS issue for our steel bottles. Secondly, as I said, we have been working on a capacity utilization of 80% for opalware. At that capacity utilization, we've been producing at 100%, so we know we'll be able to sell the inventory. So, those are two main reasons.
Because if I add for the gross margin, we are running at least, like, two quarter inventory.
We are running two quarter inventory. Yeah, so I, like I said, it's coming from opalware and the BIS.
Okay. And sir, second question is, so while you switch to Indian manufacturing, what is the effect on the ROC? Because I'm sure you would have made that calculation, because the first business is quite asset-light, because it's more or less trading.
ROC, in the short run, until we achieve capacity utilization, ROC will fall, no doubt. And it has, you can see last year we were 16 odd percent, this year we came out of 15%. But once you hit the numbers, the capacity utilization numbers, the ROC jumps. So, we are in this for the long haul. We are not looking at quarter to quarter, so it's okay if it falls.
No, which I agree, but like, because you also mentioned that you would be going aggressively on the volumes, because of which maybe you might take price cuts. So, generally, trading to manufacturing, which involves a margin rise and which takes care of the ROC. So, since you're going to pass on that benefit, how do you see the plant ROC versus the trading business in ROC?
The plant ROC should be higher than the trading business. Obviously, there will be one or two years of flux. Okay? The in-between, there'll be one or two years of flux, because the whole matter has to settle, because the third element is also volumes, right? When you're trading, you buy only what you, when you, what you need to, what you're selling. Here, you are, the production is kind of fixed. You have to produce a certain amount for having scale, for having some basic scale benefits. So, until you hit that mix, which takes a year or two, then you may have a short-term dip on the ROC numbers.
But, like I said, as per our calculations, once we are able to hit 70% capacity utilization, the ROCE of this business is north of 20%.
Sure, sir. Thanks. And sir, last question is on the non-glassware business. Sir, are we able to find victory positions in certain category of products where, you know, we feel that, you know, these categories would be, you know, sort of established categories going ahead? Like, I'm just asking from the mindset that people think about Borosil when they buy in that category.
I mean, again, India is a large country, and we have many different types of customers, and also, we have lots of product categories. I would say that in some product categories, for example, appliances, if you go on Amazon, I'm just using Amazon as a benchmark, we are already number one or number two in some, like, for example, OTGs, oven processors or juicers. We will be number one, number two, or maximum number three, okay, in the three categories already. So people are definitely coming in and asking for our product or rather, you know, putting Borosil as a brand of choice there. Is the same thing happening on the, in the trade channels? Maybe not at the moment, okay? It will take time to establish.
In the trade, we have done very well with bottles, so people have come and asked for bottles. You know, we personalize bottles also with people's names and so on, so people come and they like it. So obviously our endeavor is that what you mentioned, is to get people, even in non-glassware, to come and ask for the product. But, and obviously, the, we have done some good work here because we, you know, sales have grown from virtually zero to almost INR 400 crores in the last five, six years.
Yeah, absolutely.
But, can I say that I mentioned that we are the industry leader by any stretch of imagination, but we are working towards that, you know, goal. And of course, within pockets, there will be some channels and some products where we already have a very good position. But I would say vast majority, we are not the leader yet.
Oh, oh. Sure, sir. Thanks. All the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Priyank Chheda with Vallum Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir, just few clarifications. FY 2024, 2023, since we started, since we saw elevated CapEx cycle, we have roughly invested INR 325 crores. I believe that is for the opalware furnace. Then in FY 2024, the CapEx was roughly INR 200 crores. I believe that would be for the new pressware glass furnace. Am I correct on this understanding?
I mean, broadly, yes, most of it is there, but we also invested, for example, in a solar plant, a solar park. We had some other, y es, but broadly, you're correct.
So solar investment was around INR 40 crores to INR 50 crores, right? So the furnace, pressware, furnace was around would be around INR 150 crores.
That's right. That you are roughly correct.
If I've heard correctly on the call earlier, in this call, you did mention that the new pressware furnace of glassware, you expect peak sales of around INR 300 crores. Is that understanding correct, at the peak utilization?
At full utilization, yeah, between INR 250 crores and INR 300 crores, depending on product mix and pricing. Yes, that's right.
Got it. Got it. And what would be the CapEx budgets going ahead, sir, for FY 2025, FY 2026? Where are we broadly planning?
Yeah. About INR 100 crores CapEx this year.
Okay.
That is for some debottlenecking, some another solar, all put together will be about INR 100 crores. Now, beyond this, we are not, 2025, 2026, I don't have any plans at the moment, so.
INR 100 crores for this year, broadly into solar and some other debottlenecking, right?
Solar, debottlenecking, and we have to rebuild our furnaces. Both our old opal glass one and two furnace. So at least we will spend the money for it, but the rebuild will happen depends on the life of the furnace.
Right. So when you undergo for a maintenance, is there any chance of debottlenecking opalware capacity also?
Yeah, that, that's exactly right. That's the goal. That's right.
Got it. And, i t's correct.
Correct. Correct. And on the gross debt of around INR 150 crores, given that this year, when we are going live with one furnace in glassware, and with the gross debt of INR 150 crores, and I believe significant amount of the cash flow that would be generated internally would go into working capital requirements. So any other plans that you have, given the debt of INR 150 crores we have, how do we think about the further capital allocation on the balance sheet to strengthen anything that you're looking out for equity raise? Any thoughts on that?
I think, we had already announced that we were looking, we've got permission to raise equity up to INR 250 crores. We've not done anything yet on that, but, we have permission to raise equity up to INR 250 crores. So we may, we may choose to do that at the appropriate time.
Got it. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Yeah.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. We have reached the end of question and answer session. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you, everyone for, you know, active participation in our quarterly conference call. Just to summarize, we had a good year as far as growth is concerned. We continue to work on you know, improving margins. And you know, we are quite bullish in terms of the future where we are positioned and also where we see our demand in the country going. So thank you all for your support and patience and so on, and we look forward to interacting with you next quarter. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of ICICI Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.