Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Clean Max Q1 FY 2027 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Kuldeep Jain, founder and managing director. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. This is Kuldeep. I am joined by my CFO, Nikunj, as well. Thank you so much for your time today. We are ready to begin at our end, of course. We had, I think, about 150-plus people who had registered. We will just maybe give another minute or so to ensure that people can join. Ryan, will you let us know how many people we have right now?
Right now we have crossed the 100 mark, 100 participant mark.
Okay. We will just give it another one minute, guys, and then we will begin. I think we have more than enough quorum. We will begin in a minute's time. Thank you for your patience. Maybe we will begin now. Thank you, everyone. Ryan, just give us a count. How many people have joined? All right. The way we will do it is we do have a PowerPoint, but I will take about a few minutes upfront to walk you through some of my comments for results of the last quarter and overall. We also have already put out on Friday evening after our board meeting, which approved the results, both the financial results as well as this investor presentation and a shareholder letter is already up on our website since last Friday night.
I will touch upon a few of my comments, which are more from the shareholders' letter, and thereafter walk you through some of the PowerPoint pages. So, a few minutes without the aid of PowerPoint, but just my key messages. First message about the quarter's performance is we had terrific growth in our profit after tax, which was at INR 55 crore, which was really driven by three things. First is doubling of our revenues. Second is we improved our EBITDA margins in both of the segments of our business, which is in renewable power sales; our EBITDA margins went up from 76% to 84%. In renewable s ervices, they increased from 9% to 11%. So we had improved EBITDA margins in both business segments. We also had lower interest costs due to efforts of Nikunj and team.
Our weighted average rate of interest was 9.4% in, say, April 2025, so last year. Which has fallen about 100 basis points to 8.4%, is where we stand as of June 2026. As a result of these three factors—doubling of revenues, improved EBITDA margins in both business segments, and lower interest costs—we had substantial growth in PAT. So that's first message. Second is, if you look at indicators of future continued growth, we added substantial new capacity of about 500 MW in the first quarter of this year. This gives me a lot of confidence that we will be able to meet or exceed our guidance of 1.5 GW of minimum new capacity addition during this year. We have many more details about why we believe we are confident about meeting 1.5 GW in the shareholders' letter.
It's specifically in the Q&A section, on question number three, which you can refer to. The third thing is, we are therefore quite comfortable providing a new guidance, which is a lot of you have previously asked us that, okay, we understand how you are growing and your results, but we want to have a view on FY 2028, what is the likely EBITDA you are going to get to? So we are comfortable providing that new guidance that we will have a minimum EBITDA of INR 3,000 crore in FY 2028, which is nearly 2.4x the EBITDA in FY 2026.
So 2.4x in two years from about INR 1,290 crore in FY 2026 to a minimum of INR 3,000 crore in FY 2028 on the back of this 1,500 MW of OpEx capacity that we plan to add in the current financial year. Now talking about clients and our business.
We have two big business segments. One is data and AI; second is general industrial corporates. If you look at the first segment, which is data and AI, this continues to be a big business segment for us. We had 42% of our capacity in data and AI. In terms of our contracted capacity, 42% is data and AI. We have about 10x growth in the last two years. So between March 2024 to March 2026, we've grown about 10x in the data and AI segment. So you know that's the relevance of that segment to us. We are proud that in this fiscal alone, we have announced deals with many global hyperscalers in calendar 2026, such as Meta, Apple, Google, and Amazon. We estimate that we have about 35% market share of such hyperscalers' business in India. Right.
In addition, we are also energy partners, clean energy partners, to various data center companies such as NTT, STT, L&T Data, Equinix, Iron Mountain, and several others. Therefore, we do expect, on a look-forward basis, we do expect substantial growth to continue coming from the data and AI part of the business segment. The reason is really down to a simple equation, that when a data center or a hyperscaler says that we will have 1 gigawatt of new capacity that comes up, you know that 1 gigawatt is what is called IT load. It translates to roughly 1.4 or 1.5 gigawatts of round the clock, which is 100% PLF power load, which really means about 6 gigawatts. Like 3 gigawatts of wind plus 3 gigawatts of solar—kind of combination. It means 6 gigawatts of power generation capacity to meet this requirement.
Which is, in other words, a 40,000 crore INR capital investment. So if you work the equation all the way through, every 1 gigawatt of data center IT load translates to 6 gigawatt of new RE capacity, plus a few gigawatt of storage, which equates to a 40,000 crore INR investment. There are many, many more gigawatts of data center capacity to come in India over the next five, seven years. Therefore, we expect this segment to be a continued growth driver. Our other segment is industrial customers. Non-data and AI, but just general make in India, but with cheaper, greener power. We have seen a lot of growth in that segment as well. We have doubled our contracted volumes in the last two years, which means that we are growing at about 46% even in that segment.
This growth is driven by a combination of two things. First, it is a low penetration starting point. The last available data was that only 7% of industrial power in India was consumed through such bilateral green sources, which in other words, implies that 93% is available for penetration. So there is a huge penetration potential. The second reason is that the customer value proposition is terrific. Customers save upwards of 25% on their energy cost and also lower their carbon footprint. So, there is low penetration with a high consumer proposition, and therefore, the last two years, we have seen over 46% annual CAGR in terms of new capacity signed up, and we do think that some of that will continue. Therefore, we do have a substantial pipeline, which is just contracted capacity, which is under construction, which has remained stable at 2.5 gigawatts or more.
So at any point, we have enough locked and loaded to build for the next 18 months of growth. The good news is that the new volumes we have a similar quality standard and profitability standard as the prior volumes. Let me explain. There are three metrics that we track closely. First is, how much of our customers are rated double A, triple A, or multinational subsidiaries in India? We are glad to report that honestly, for the last decade or so, that number has been well above 80% and continues to be. Second, the tariff of the 2.5 gigawatt, which is contracted yet to be built without value to storage, is about INR 4 per unit of power. So the tariff prospects are as good. The new volumes are as profitable, from a tariff perspective, as existing volumes.
Eighty percent of the new volumes are with existing clients. That's those three dimensions of quality that we track in new customers, which is, what is the share of high credit rating, i.e., double A, triple A, multinational clients. That remains as always. Second is tariff is not declining, so profitability is intact. Third is that the share of repeats, so we continue having customer love, and nearly 80% of new volumes we contracted in the last quarter were repeat business. That's about clients. We've also lowered our borrowing costs on project finance from 9.4%, as I mentioned in April 2025, to about 8.4% in June 2026. We are looking to tap the domestic credit markets, so the bond markets, for the first-ever corporate bond issuance by us.
This is enabled by the fact that recently our credit rating also got upgraded to a double A-minus threshold. The double A barrier is important if you are to do a domestic corporate bond, and that's the market we are tapping into. A lot of other questions also frequently come up. We've tried to provide very detailed answers in our FAQ, so in our shareholders' letter, which has a very detailed FAQ section, please do refer to that. With that, I'm done with my opening comments, and I will try to walk us through this PowerPoint right now. What I will also do, though, is to the extent there is a repetition from my opening comments, I will take the liberty to skip the slide. Highlights for Q1.
As we said, we've now got about 6 gigawatts of contracted capacity overall and 3.5 gigawatts of RE Power Sales segment. In this quarter, we've commissioned about 400 megawatts in the RE Power Sales segment and 100 megawatts in the RE Services segment. So overall, 500 megawatts. We've had a lot of commissioning in the last one quarter. We're also delighted that our EBITDA has increased about 74%, to about INR 494 crores for this quarter. We went about some of these other dimensions. From a quality perspective, we continue to do very well with data and AI clients, and most of our volumes come from repeat business with existing customers. Often we talk about and give data about which states we are operating in. I don't think there's too much of relevance here.
We continue to have strong positions in each of the markets, where we already had that with an increasing diversifying trend across various states. The total contracted capacity is about 6 gigawatts as of June 30. Of that 6 gigawatts, 3.5 gigawatt is already operational, and another 2,500 megawatt, therefore, is contracted and currently being executed. In our RE Services segment, we have about 682 megawatt, which is operational because we commissioned 127 megawatt in this quarter. 147 megawatt is contracted and under execution. Therefore, the portfolio total of built and under construction is about 6.8 gigawatt for us. In our KPI section, you will see there's another 6 gigawatt or so where we have transmission capacity as well as we have applied for new transmission.
So we are very optimistic about the growth, and therefore we are continuously replenishing the transmission and evacuation capacities available to us. A few highlights on our financial results. As I mentioned, our revenues have more than doubled and in each of the segments there is high growth in revenues. There is also an uptick in our EBITDA margins in both our segments, which is really down to operating leverage more than anything else. RE Power Sales first quarter of last fiscal, our EBITDA margin was 76%, which has increased to about 84% in the first quarter of this fiscal. Secondly, second business segment is RE Services, which was 8.7% EBITDA margin in Q1 of last year, which is 11.2% in Q1 of this year. Both our business segments have improved their EBITDA margins.
As a result, our PAT has been positive INR 55 crore for the first quarter of this year. I will flip over this chart quickly because we went through this in the last fiscal. Our run rate EBITDA has increased. Run rate EBITDA means EBITDA from all operational assets as on that date for the next 12 months. At the end of last fiscal, it was INR 1,870 crore or so. That is a repeat from really the last presentation. We will take you through some of these key unit economics. I will focus on one or two numbers only here, which is if you look at our tariff on the bottom right-hand side, the operational portfolio tariff is about INR 3.93 per unit of power. This is for the existing capacity of 3.5 gigawatt. What is under execution?
2.5 gigawatt is contracted under execution. That is at a tariff level of INR 4. I mentioned that earlier. We now see in renewables the tariff levels stabilizing to rising. We have given some illustrative operating assumptions, but based on what we are putting up and all of these assumptions, we are now comfortable providing a sort of threshold EBITDA guidance for next fiscal, which is FY 2028, which is that we believe the first number is 4.6 gigawatt will be the minimum OpEx sales capacity on 1st April 2027, which was 3,100 megawatt at the start of the year, plus about 1,500 megawatt of new capacity we are adding this year. 4,600 megawatt of OpEx sales capacity minimum by 1st April 2027.
This should give us, and therefore we are comfortable issuing a guidance to the Street, that we will have a minimum reported EBITDA in FY 2028 of about INR 3,000 crore. This is a substantial, which is nearly 2.3 times growth in two years between FY 2026 and FY 2028. We are comfortable issuing that as a guidance. That came from a feedback from a lot of you all, which is that we do not want to just look at how we are building and how we are doing the current year, but we would like some estimate for next year as well. That is the guidance we are providing. A few business updates. One is, as we talked about, data and AI continues to be a strong component of our business.
It maintained its position at about 42% of our aggregate contracted capacity and has grown nearly 10 times between start of fiscal 2024 to about now. So in two years, it grown about 10 times. Even the conventional C&I, which is really largely industrial clients, Make in India, if you will. That has also enjoyed about a 2.2x growth in volumes overall and is growing at therefore about 46% per annum. We have a number of key customers in the data and AI business as well as in industrial clients, but we are quite disaggregated. We had given a guidance and stick to it that we will add over 1.5 gigawatt in the current fiscal in terms of OPEX sales capacity.
We have added, in OPEX sales capacity, 400 megawatt in the first quarter of the year, and we have plenty of unbuilt capacity. Why we feel very confident about this is answered in much more detail in question 3 in the shareholders' letter as well. We continue to have. We have always enjoyed somewhere between 75% and 80% of our new contracts signed are with existing clients. In the last quarter, that number was quite similar. The new contracted capacity is with existing customers. We continue to have low receivable days. We continue to maintain above 80% share of volumes with clients who are rated double A, triple A, or multinational. That continues to be a big part of our business. The PPA tenure remains very long. We have on average 23 years PPA tenure.
We have a great tariff locked in for the next 2.5 gigawatt. It is about INR 4 or so, which is in today's times, a fantastic tariff. We continue growing our customer base. Today we have nearly 600 unique C&I customers and are in about 10 states. seven states, we are already evacuating power; three more states is contracted and under execution. That footprint is also vital because customers need the RE capacity to be in the same state as their power consumption, and therefore that footprint also matters. Let us talk about project and execution performance. Before I head into that, I do think this is a very, very critical area of our business because today we do feel that we are constrained, not by demand as much as by how much we can actually put up.
We are in a almost happy situation to be supply constrained, not demand constrained. Therefore, firstly, I am very proud that we have improved the pace of build. If you came and met us almost a year ago and looked at a trailing 12 months as of June 26th, how much capacity have we added? The answer was 450 megawatt in the 12 months prior to 30th June 2026. This reflects our execution capacity. How much you add in a quarter may go up or down, but always looking at trailing 12 months of capacity addition is a useful metric. 450 megawatt of capacity addition has increased to about 1,740 megawatt in the trailing 12 months, which included one CTU project. Even the STU and rooftop part of the capacity addition grew from 450 megawatt to 1,200.
We have now started building CTU capacities as well, maybe like one CTU site a year, so about 500 MW a year. The pace at which we are executing has grown to a trailing 12 months run rate of about 1,743 MW. That gives you a sense of the capabilities of the organization has improved to be able to grow at this pace. The second aspect of execution in our mind is on time and within budget, which is very critical in a project business. It is important to look at this operating discipline over a long period of time. We are quite happy that over the last three and a half years, including the last quarter, we have always come in within budget.
Whenever we contract something with a client, the board approves the project, and there is an approved Capital Expenditure on basis of which we have underwritten the project. In each of the last three fiscals, as well as in the most recent quarter, we have installed projects below budgeted cost. That is a positive for us. Our grid uptime has generally been quite good. STUs is most of our capacity, is about 87% of our EBITDA is STU plus rooftop. In STU, grid uptime has remained very high at above 99% kind of levels, and you would always assume 1% sort of downtime somewhere in the grid. Yes, like many other players, CTU is a problem area for us. We have a project commissioning in Bikaner.
At the end of last fiscal, start of this fiscal, where we have about 70% back down and expect that backdown to actually continue throughout the duration of the current financial year. But the saving grace for us is that CTU capacities only represent about 13% of our FY 20-- of our stock of year-run rate EBITDA, and therefore the impact is only on that 13% or so. Someone earlier today asked me a question. Yes, our EBITDA would have been higher by maybe 8% or 9% if we did not have this backdown, but that is the extent of the impact. We continue to do well in our power generation because you can put up assets, but are they generating as per your expectation and as per prior exhibited performance? We always, on PLF basis, you have to look at trailing 12 months because of seasonality.
Any one quarter is not a good metric of PLF. We look at trailing 12 months. In wind, we have marginally improved our PLF. In solar and hybrid, we are almost similar. I would say in all types of technologies we use, our PLFs have remained industry-leading and at a high level. I will request Nikunj to now walk us through the financial results section of our presentation. Thank you.
Thank you, Kuldeep, and good afternoon, everyone. We are on slide 16, those who have not joined on webcast and using the phone lines. It is financial results snapshot for the first quarter FY 2027. I will focus on the key, double-clicking on the numbers, which perhaps we have not touched upon thus far. Revenue from operation grown 107% to INR 832 crore. If we double-click on it, the RE Power Sales segment has grown 47% to INR 528 crore compared to INR 358 crore last quarter.
The RE Services segment has reported a revenue of INR 300 crore this quarter compared to INR 41 crore, which is a six-fold increase because we executed more projects and booked revenue under this segment. The EBITDA, given the mix of the two segments, has grown 74% on a cash EBITDA basis and, on a reported basis, a 68% increase to INR 462 crore compared to INR 274 crore.
Of course, the fact reflects this operating and financial leverage we touched upon. Some of the other important balance sheet numbers for the quarter are the gross block, which is at INR 14,138 crore now, and the net debt number is INR 11,809 crore, compared to the INR 9,684 crore the last quarter, which is 31st March 2026. Similarly, the equity base also has increased to INR 5,831 crore. We have some more slides covering the buildup of the EBITDA and net debt, which is the next slide, which is page 17. There is an important two number which we look at it that what is the breakup of EBITDA. It is INR 494 crore is the adjusted reported EBITDA. In our business, there are projects which are operational; at the start of the year has already been fully stabilized and has been operating.
That represents close to INR 334 crore of EBITDA comes from that out of INR 494 crore. 7% EBITDA comes from the RE Services business, and the remaining, which is INR 125 crore of the EBITDA in the quarter, is primarily from the project, which is commissioned in the last 12 months and in the process of fully stabilization. Some of them have fully, some are still maybe stabilizing. This is a breakup we give so that we can look at the corresponding debt against it and try and better appreciate the cash flow versus the debt position. Out of the total INR 11,800 crore net debt, approximately 44% of the debt is against the project, which has been operational at the 12 months prior to the start of the year, which is INR 5,154 crore.
Very interestingly, 38% of the total debt, which is INR 4,483 crore, is against the under-construction asset. It means that assets are yet to generate the cash flows. The debt is being utilized for the projects which are currently under construction, which reflects the velocity of the new construction and what is more coming in as a future pipelines in the project. Page 18, which further covers the breakup of the RE Power Sales segments and the operating leverage within this business. The gross margin primarily remains in the range of 93%-92%, so it is more of a flat line. We see the EBITDA margin continue to expand primarily because of the reason that SG&A to total income continues to decrease purely on account of the operating leverage with the increase in the capacity and the base.
Approximately 84% is EBITDA margin for RE Power Sales business for this quarter, which was for last financial year was around 82%. Sorry, 83%. It is already moved to 84. A couple of years back, it was 75%. We are already seeing that expansion, and the base—hopefully it should further continue to expand. This is the last slide for this presentation, and we will open this for Q&A. Three points to highlight here. One is that our credit rating now is double A, which was A plus for the last quarter, same period. That certainly is a very, very good outcome for us post-listing. Kuldeep Jain already touched upon that this also opens up a BCF opportunity for us. We will be coming out with the first domestic bond for Clean Max hopefully soon.
A 23-year weighted average PPA against the 18- 19-year loan profile also reflects that there is a very strong asset-liability sort of coverage. The combination of two now reflects on cost of financing, which is 8.4% for the 30th June 2026, compared to 9% and above for the last financial year, 1st April 2025. This, we believe, is a very good outcome on the financing side for the business, and now we will try to build upon on that momentum as we progress further in the year. With this, maybe I will stop the management commentary and open the floor for Q&A. Thank you, everyone.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and One on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press Star and Two. Participants are requested to use their handsets while asking a question. Please note, participants connected through webcast may pose their text questions in the Ask Question box. We take the first question from the line of Apoorva Bahadur from IIFL Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity and for the very detailed presentation. I think it is class-leading. I want to know your thoughts on this deferral of ALMM List-II. We are one of the beneficiaries, I think. How are we trying to sort of take advantage of this gap which the government has created?
Thank you, Apoorva. The government has basically said that for all projects which can commission before March 31, you can continue using domestic modules made with Chinese or imported cells. That is essentially the benefit. Those are available cheaper. The price difference is about INR 60 lakhs per megawatt between Indian-made cells and imported cells. The benefit is about INR 60 lakhs per megawatt. Obviously the projects which we were planning to build between now and December 31, or even something which was maybe internally slated for January and February, we are examining and working on pulling it forward, making sure we can build it by December 31 to take advantage of that.
It is tough to give a precise number on how many megawatts that would be, but Apoorva, if we are doing 1,500 megawatts overall, you can think about or guesstimate on a per quarter what the amount of solar modules. There is undoubtedly some benefit. In some sites where we have existing clients, PPAs are signed, they were close to making a decision. We are seeing some acceleration of decision-making at their end as well. Everyone wants to take advantage of this and capture a little lower tariff, but that is only in a few, I would say, brownfield STU sites, such as in Maharashtra and Karnataka, where we have that ability to build that quickly, that even if someone contracted today, we could actually commission it by December 31. There is some benefit.
It will definitely accrue to be contracted under execution at the rate of INR 60 lakhs a megawatt cheaper cost. There may be also some incremental sales, particularly where we have brownfield sites, example in Maharashtra and Karnataka, where it can be executed quickly. Thank you, Apoorva.
Thank you. Thank you so much, sir. Also on the pricing for these modules, are you seeing any drop in the prices or softening of prices because of this delay? How are we positioned over there?
We've not yet contracted. I was in a meeting last week where I was updated that we are under process of negotiations, so it's too early to comment, honestly. It's not yet contracted by us. But fundamentally, between Indian-made cells and imported cells, there is on average at least a 60 lakh INR per megawatt difference.
Okay. Understood, sir. Sir, just touching on your comment on this 1.5 gigawatt capacity addition target in FY 2027. I read your shareholders' letter, and where you have mentioned that 543 of this 1.5 gigawatt will be contributed by the CTU project at Koppal, where two bays have been allocated, and they commission by October 2026 and March 2027. Can you break down the capacity linked to each of these bays?
I don't have the numbers straight off the bat, Apoorva.
No worries.
But we can provide it to you maybe post this call.
Sure.
But it is useful to have two bays because what happens is you have some fungibility across bays also. That is also a factor in CTU.
And sir, on the second bay commissioning by Sorry, please go ahead.
I was just saying for everyone else's benefit that we have put up the shareholder letter that Apoorva is referring to on the screen as well. I do not know if you can increase the font a little bit. And people can refer to that just in their free time as well. Sorry, Apoorva, but why do not you finish asking your question?
Sure. I was just wondering about this commissioning timeline for the second bay by March 2027. Is it a little too close for comfort for our target, or have you factored it in your 1.5 gigawatt target cells? The probability of meeting this is quite high, even if there is slight slippage in the second bay commissioning.
Yeah. What we do know is even in the first bay, there is spare capacity and so on. We have been given an assurance that, look, if you manage to commission right now, the bays are empty enough that there is enough evacuation capacity and there is fungibility across the two bays.
Okay. So even if the second one gets slightly delayed, we will still meet our target. Understood, sir.
Yeah.
I also went through your results, and I think there was one quite interesting observation over there that there has been a reclassification or an amendment to the debenture trust deed, which has reclassified existing listed debentures from unsecured to secured and lifted the security cover from 0.7 times to 1 time. Why would existing debenture holders need more security?
Apoorva, I can take that. The way the original, you remember that there were certain corporate debenture issues; part of that is repaid using the IPO proceeds, part still remains. The way our debenture trustee was written, that the security cover would remain from 0.7 to 1.25. It was a range. Either we have to keep it 0.7 minimum, or we take it to 1.25. Given that now we are listed, we are planning another corporate bond; we said that it would be 1x, we are not keeping a range. Otherwise, post-repayment, we would have taken it to 1.25. It appears like they are increasing. We are not increasing, we are just making sure it is consistent. It is consistent to the upcoming bond, where we would offer maybe similar 1x security.
Okay, understood. Very clear. Thank you so much. I will get back in the queue.
No problem.
No worries.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Atul Tiwari from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thanks a lot. Just two questions. Obviously, over the past one or two quarters, we have been seeing a pretty sharp pickup in the battery installations, and many listed players are also getting very aggressively into this game, ordering 10, 15, 20 gigawatt-hours of batteries. The question is, how is it playing for your business? Are your new PPAs also incorporating some kind of batteries? If not, then how are you thinking about this opportunity? That is the first question.
Thank you, Atul. For benefit of all, it is covered in question number five of our FAQ section of the shareholder letter, which Rahul is just putting up. To answer that, Atul, yes, we agree this is a huge potential growth opportunity for Clean Max, and it is a natural evolution. Just like in our corporate journey, we started with rooftop solar, we added then offsite solar, then we added wind, we have added carbon solutions, we are now adding BESS. It is a natural evolution and something which we are quite excited about. What are all the things we are doing? First, this is in the where we stand today. We have greenlit our first BESS investment already, which is our STU project in Rajasthan, and have also signed MOUs with three clients in the past one month alone. For us, just go. I was here.
We have also signed MOUs with three clients in the past one month alone. For us, we cannot just put up a blind BESS investment. We have to sign up with a customer to pay for that BESS investment. That is what we are doing, and we have done MOUs with three, and we do see strong tailwinds here, and we will talk more about this. Next page. What are the opportunities which we see over the next three years?
Please go ahead.
Sorry, I'm not finished, Atul.
Okay.
We are seeing with C&I customers. I'm not talking about whether DISCOM has a tender. As you all know, we do not participate in DISCOM tenders. In the C&I market, we are seeing three kinds of opportunities. One is in solar-only states, like Uttarakhand or Haryana, where wind resource is not available. BESS allows us to pair daytime solar generation with storage to improve the energy offset customers can get. That is one type of market we are tackling. Second is, in some markets, the grid has now started creating more of a price differential between daytime and evening peak power. Maharashtra is a good example.
They have made daytime energy cheaper as a DISCOM and said, "We will charge much more of a premium in evening peak." Therefore, customers are saying, "Hey, can you store some power and give it to us in the evening?" And third aspect is, we are already seeing a few customer tenders out for BESS as a service, because some very large customers may have contracted with multiple people, may need BESS as a service. These are the three segments or opportunities that we are targeting. And it is very valuable because it helps improve. If you do solar plus add BESS, it helps increase the offset of power that you can offer a customer. It essentially enlarges the addressable market for Clean Max. Therefore, we are very serious about it.
We've solved the technical issues, we have vendor choices done, we've contracts done, we've started dealing with clients and are building our first few projects under that. All of this is in Q&A number 5 of the shareholders letter. You can take it from there.
Yeah. Great. Very good. My second, and the last question is on the new PPA pipeline. Over the past two years, we have seen very sharp growth in your total portfolio to now 6,000 megawatts, 40%-45% growth. To maintain the same kind of growth, how does the pipeline look over next one to two years, both from your traditional C&I segment and data centers and AI?
We are seeing tremendous growth, Atul . "Pipeline" basically means all the hundreds of conversations we are engaged in to sell more energy.
That is pipeline for us. It is not contracted. It is the hundreds of conversations we are engaged in to sell more energy. There are two, three drivers why this pipeline growth is terrific. I take both our customer segments separately. First is if you look at data and AI as a customer segment, every one gigawatt of data center needs about one and a half gigawatt of round-the-clock power, which means about six gigawatt of renewable energy. Today, we, as Clean Max, enjoy 35% share of the hyperscaler business in India. Our view on data and AI is that the market is going to expand at such an incredibly furious pace that there is space for many more players to come in and for everyone to win. Because if the volumes are expanding so much, there is a potential for everyone to win.
But certainly in this, we feel confident that existing proven suppliers, like us, who have contracts with all the data centers as well as with all the hyperscalers, we get a more than fair chance to get our slice of pie. If the data center market increases by, say, five gigawatt over the next five years, or the numbers I have heard from all you analysts are 5 to 10 gigawatt in the next five years, then that means about a 30 to 60 gigawatt, 30,000 megawatt to 60,000 megawatt of new renewables needed to supply 75% of that data center capacity. Therefore, we feel very excited about that portion of the market, and it reflects in the conversations we are having with clients. The second part of the market is Make in India, but with cheaper, greener power. There we feel excited about two things.
First, the customer proposition is great, and the penetration is very low. The customer proposition, why should a corporate adopt green power, is because they save 25% on their power bill and improve their ESG score, lower their carbon footprint, and so on. The customer proposition is great, and the market is very large. This is there in our other investor presentations as well. It is a INR 300,000 crore EBITDA market. Just C&I market on RE generation valued at, say, even INR 3.6 per unit of power at a generation bus bar, is worth INR 300,000 crores of EBITDA pool currently. This EBITDA pool is growing, but the penetration of this pool is very low. Only about 7%-8% of these customers are today buying green directly, so the penetration potential is very high, and therefore, the opportunity is big.
The way we are tackling it is, of course, doubling down in the biggest markets where we are quite strong, such as Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, and Tamil Nadu. These are the biggest industrial markets in India, and we are doubling down on that. We are also entering new states where we were today not present. For instance, we have new transmission capacities in states like Uttarakhand or Andhra Pradesh and Rajasthan, which we are now constructing in. Both low penetration nationwide, so that is huge opportunity. Of course, there is opportunity to do a lot more in the biggest markets of India, where we are the market leaders, and there is potential to enter new states. Therefore, both in data and AI as well as in Make in India segment. Data and AI is 42% of our volumes; Make in India is 58%.
In both those segments, we see huge potential for growth for the reasons I explained.
Okay, sir. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
From Axis Capital, please go ahead.
Hello, sir. I had a few questions on your curtailment issue. Because in your shareholder letter, you have mentioned that curtailment was 70% in June, but can you quantify it for the whole quarter, one? Can you just put a beta number or a number of units lost due to curtailment?
Yes. The way to look at it is our run rate EBITDA at the end of last fiscal, as declared by us previously also, was INR 1,870 crores. Of this, the other number we have declared is our CTU project, where the curtailment problem is there, accounts for about 13% of this run rate EBITDA. In that, we are currently facing a curtailment of about 70%. If you assume the curtailment continues for the whole year, we are saying INR 1,870 crores into roughly 13% is your EBITDA from the project, which is about INR 240 crores. If you take a 70% curtailment, that is about INR 170 crores on a full-year basis.
Right. Got it. Other thing I wanted to understand is if you can give your PLFs and generation on a quarterly basis. PLF, you mentioned TTM, which does not give the understanding about how your assets performed in a given quarter. That is one thing. In the-
I think in the KPI we can refer to this.
Sorry?
Even in our KPI, even when we did our IPO, my friend, in our KPIs, we refer to PLF on a trailing 12 months basis. Because of seasonality, that is the right way to evaluate rather than within one quarter. Of course, if the PLFs have remained the same or only improved, we have done well in the last quarter as well from a PLF perspective.
Great. Even in terms of units sold, in one of your slides you gave units generated by the onsite capacity, so balance is offsite. In that, if you can give solar wind breakup, at least that would give us a sense of how your assets are performing in the given quarter.
Okay, let us see.
The breakup is given on when we report our greenhouse gas reporting, which is on page
Yeah. So that is on-site, right?
It has the breakup on units generated on No, both. Offsite, onsite breakup is given.
He is saying about solar and wind.
Solar and wind offsite.
Let me see whether we can give it from there.
Right. Other thing that I wanted to understand is that in your opening remarks, you mentioned that 38% of your INR 118 billion debt is related to CWEP. Now, 38 seems to be too high, so just clarifying, are you considering the debt related to the 525 megawatt project, which is stuck because of the connectivity issue as CWEP?
No, we are not, because that is already commissioned and comes in our commissioned.
Right. That is coming in. I was just clarifying.
But we do have the happy situation of very high growth, and therefore, all those projects are in very late stages of construction. So certainly all the equipments are already at site and so on, and therefore the CWEP debt is high because the capacity being built is high, the EBITDA that will be generated from such capacity is high as well.
Right. Got it. Great. The last question from my end is if you can tell us about the CapEx that was done in Q1.
No, we can't. We can tell you about the capacity that was commissioned, which we have, that we added about 500 megawatt overall. 400 megawatt was in our RE Power Sales segment; slightly above 100 megawatt was in our RE Services.
Great.
We do not have a breakup of fixed assets growth, but we can maybe get back to you offline on that.
Right. Sure. No worries. Those were my questions. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Nirmal from Aditya Birla Sun Life AMC. Please go ahead.
Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. My question was on the, in case of EAPA or the VPPA contracts, where we are essentially acting as merchant agents for hyperscalers. My understanding is that when the merchant prices and solar hours are moving down, how does it impact the way hyperscalers look at this? Is this understanding correct?
Two things. Firstly, when hyperscalers sign up to such contracts, all of our contracts give them the right, the customer the right, to either take the power directly to their data centers in India or to use it to buy the energy attribute offset. That right is really with them, and the way they think about it is that as and when their data centers come up in India and the energy load ramps up, typically the intention is you will then consume the power directly. But that option is left to them. Second thing is that under an EAPA or a VPPA contract, the net tariff to us is identical, irrespective of what is happening in the merchant market.
Whether, for instance, the solar power is being sold in the merchant market at one INR or three INR makes no difference to us, because we are to get the assured revenue on a per unit basis, which is typically 3.7 INR or thereabouts. I forget the precise number, but we are to get the assured revenue on a per unit basis, which is what we continue to get, and therefore it makes no real difference to us. I think they are still quite gung ho about such contracts because, most importantly, all of them I think have large data centers in India planned. They're not looking at India as just a market from which to do EAPA or VPPA contracts.
They're looking at it as a big data center market, and therefore they may have. India is also a good place to source RE power from because you could use it to offset India and non-India offset requirements till such time as their data centers ramp up. That's how they are looking at it.
Okay, sir. Thank you. My second question is, historically, hyperscalers have chosen us as a preferred partner. As you mentioned, we have 35% market share. Just wanted to understand, what are we doing differently here?
We are glad that we have, over the last many years, a strong relationship with each of the hyperscalers, with many deals done over multiple years, and therefore credibility as a vendor built through that. Which translates into, as of today, we have about estimated 35% market share of the hyperscaler business in India. Some of these, what all we have done with each client is listed on the left-hand side of this page. I don't think hyperscalers necessarily have preferred vendors, or they only work with X or Y. The way we look at it, or what we have learnt in our dealings with them, is that their volume requirements are so incredibly large that they will need multiple vendors to supply to them. Therefore, even as they have announced data center contracts with multiple players, we've all been privy to recent announcements.
They have simultaneously contracted clean energy requirements with players like us. We feel very confident about our relationships and our work, and we do think that this market share of hyperscaler deals is currently very, very high at 35%+. I think that will come down, as the share may come down, but if the volume just explodes, that's fine. It's quite a few gigawatts for us in this segment in itself. Thank you.
Okay. Just my last question on competitive intensity. Many big players, like Adani and Reliance Industries and also NTPC, have expressed their desire to come into the C&I space. How are you looking at this? Of course, you mentioned that it's a very large EBITDA pool. But how are you looking at it going ahead?
See the good news: we have been exclusively focused on the C&I market for the last 15 years and therefore created huge advantages, such as 600 customers. These customers also often require to put 26% equity, so we have nearly 100 SPVs with client equity in them. 80% of our new volumes every year is repeat business through these clients. Second is execution difficulties in C&I because you do need capacity in every state where people have a requirement. You cannot just put up one big plant, whether in Kutch or some desert or so on, and supply everywhere in India to the C&I segment. The average PPA size is only about 13 MW in this market.
All of those are the challenges, and our advantage is a strong base of clients, high share of repeat from those clients, that is how we power our growth and presence across 10 states to supply to those customers. Obviously, as the market grows, as people realize that this is a higher profitability, high-growth segment of the market, they are announcing their plans to compete here. But we have been the proven market leaders for the last 15 years. Therefore, we feel very confident about getting our share of the pie. That said, it has always been and will remain a fragmented market. So we may be number one, but as per some recently released statistics, our market share is about 14%. So it is not a winner-takes-all market. It used to be 12%; I think it has increased to about 14% now.
But it is not a winner-takes-all market. If our share is 14%, it means everyone else is splitting 85% between them. Right? So there is ample scope for everyone to play.
Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you. Next question, please. We lost our administrator. Ryan, are you there? Ryan, can you prompt the next question, please?
Hello.
Yeah. Hi, Ryan. I think you're back now.
Hello. Sir, can I ask a question?
Yeah. Why don't you go ahead?
Okay, sir. I have mainly two questions. One is with respect to RE Services. Sir, if my understanding is right, correct me if I am wrong, but under this division, we build, it is more or less like an EPC business, wherein we build a renewable energy power plant for our client, and then once the plant is commissioned, we transfer the plant to the client, right?
Yeah. What is the question?
I just want to understand this is an order.
Can you confirm that that is the business model?
Yeah. I just want to understand the business model and whether this is an order book-driven business or a long-term contract business.
What we do is that the nature of the revenue is EPC and O&M and usage of our transmission line. The way it works is this is only done for corporate customers. So it's still for C&I customers, but some customers may make an internal decision to deploy their own capital expenditure to own their own facility. Our clients who have publicly talked about this include Sun Pharma, Himalaya Drug Company and Honda motorcycles, and many others. So they may make an internal boardroom decision to invest their own CapEx. We will do the EPC, O&M. We will build a plant for them within our farm, so it's always on their books. Our sources of revenue here are two types.
One is upfront margins of EPC on building it, and the second is sustained annuity business from doing O&M and allowing them use of our common transmission infrastructure in our solar and wind farms. So we have a mix of both one-time as well as recurring revenues in this business segment. It is an order book-driven business, and currently, the order book in terms of capacity that we have is 147 megawatts, which Ravil is pointing out too, which is contracted, yet to be executed.
What's the order execution cycle for this business?
The order to execution is definitely within 12 months.
Yeah.
Maybe even shorter, but definitely within 12 months.
Understood, sir. Earlier, with respect to the guidance, the management mentioned that INR 3,000 crore EBITDA for FY 2028. This is from renewable p ower sales only, right? Or is it including the renewable s ervices as well?
Yeah. We give a corporate-level EBITDA guidance; it is obviously including both.
Understood, sir. What is the peak debt can we expect by FY 2026-2028, sorry?
What is the?
Peak debt can we expect?
Can you repeat your question, please?
Hello? Hello, can you hear me, sir?
We have given, if you look at this page 10, we have put it up right now. We have provided that the steady-state net debt corresponding to this INR 3,000 crore EBITDA will be INR 16,000 crores. We may have more debt than if we have debt for under-construction assets, but we are saying , like, to like. When you have INR 3,000 crore of EBITDA from those assets, the debt will be about INR 16,000 crores for assets corresponding there.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Puneet Gulati from HSBC. Please go ahead. Puneet, please accept the request and unmute from your end. Since there is no response, we will move on to the next question, which is from the line of Ishan from Antique Stock Broking. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my question. I just wanted to know if you could tell some color on BESS, wherein, what will be the tariffs exactly using the BESS, and to offset the 70%-75% cost energy for the customer, how many hours of BESS we are talking about? And what would be the CapEx?
Right now, it does not form a substantial part of our CapEx program really for this year. Therefore, firstly, from a materiality perspective, it is not material. It will be about two hours of storage is what the numbers correspond to. That is what we are willing to talk about right now.
How much will be the jump in tariffs using this?
Typically, we have seen that we need about INR 3 or more for just a service of porting the electricity from daytime to evening. There may be more for generating the electricity in the daytime, but just the BESS as a service would be closer to INR 3.5 or more, is our expectation.
Got it. Secondly, I see that in our under construction book from last quarter to this quarter, the tariff has gone up from INR 3.85 to INR 4. Just wanted to understand what was the reason for it. Secondly, with the extension in ALCM, the benefit will be passed on to the customers, or will it be like our reduced CapEx and hence our increased returns?
I do not think the ALCM reduction or the ALCM benefit is a humongous one. It really applied to the volumes we were anyway building over the next three to four months. Those are contracted quantities, and therefore there is no sort of tariff renegotiation there. The CapEx risk or benefit is to our account. That is on the next four months of this ALCM issuance. Yes, the tariff is up now to about INR 4 per unit of power. For those already operating, it is about 3.93. Those are the facts.
Got it. Thank you.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Puneet Gulati from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity. My first question is on the 31st of March, you provided that the data of run rate EBITDA INR 1,870. Do you have a similar number as of 30th of June based on the capacity?
No, Puneet, the way we are looking at it is we have historically experienced that the run rate EBITDA at the close of a fiscal will typically be the EBITDA for the next year. And our 1 to 1.1x EBITDA of the run rate EBITDA is actually our reported EBITDA for the next year. But of course, there could be many issues which affect it one way or the other. Therefore, we don't really publish a number every quarter of the run rate EBITDA, because that gives a wrong indication to the market, because assets also take some time to stabilize fully. So, the way we would urge you to think about it is, what was the run rate EBITDA end of last year, and therefore, what is the likely EBITDA for this year? That's how to look at it.
I think run-rate EBITDA numbers are better looked at on an end-of-fiscal basis.
Understood. Secondly, on your data center contracts, are you still experiencing more 12 to 15-megawatt-sized contracts, or have the size of contracts started increasing now?
We are, I think, overall seeing that as a. Firstly, for our STU business, which is not with hyperscalers, it is with either Make in India customers or with data centers located in the likes of Mumbai, Chennai, Bangalore. There, the average, per PPA, is still about 13 MW or so on an average basis. Our largest contract there also would be about 150 MW. You must have read our recent public announcement. We signed with GSES something to that effect. As well as, I think even with the data center clients, the average size of contract is obviously above 13 MW. 13 MW is for the average for all the deals signed. For just data centers or for some of the larger deals, it is obviously higher, even in the STU segment.
We have CTU segment, which is more for the hyperscalers, because their requirements also are at a different scale. In that segment, the average deal size is maybe about 200 MW per deal. That would be the average. I do not have a firm number, but maybe 200, 250, or thereabouts. That market for hyperscalers is of course, very large.
That is currently at VPPA level, right? Not the actual supply.
That is currently at VPPA level, but all of them have the option , and I would hazard a guess, even the intention of taking direct supplies of those energy contracts into their data centers as and when those data centers begin operating. Because the hyperscalers today, while they are building and have announced plans and so on, they are not actually power-consuming data centers owned by them yet.
Understood. Lastly, you won about 300+ megawatt contracts in this quarter as well. Is it possible to get some sense of what sort of tariffs you would have experienced, given that some of them will also have a BESS component, especially in Rajasthan?
Overall, two things. We are not giving quarter-by-quarter tariff numbers, but for 2,500 megawatts contracted yet to be built, which is the number as of 30th June, 2,500 megawatts contracted yet to be built is about INR 4 per unit of power. Out of this 2,500 megawatts, only about 115 megawatts, or so is in the state of Rajasthan, so it is obviously not significant to me. It is about 6, 7% of that total component. Of that 6, 7%, some 5, 7% must be BESS. So it is not a significant number at all. I think the way to look at that INR 4 tariff for 2,500 megawatt is this is what we are getting now without BESS. That is practically how to look at it.
Understood. Lastly—
As I said earlier, our internal estimates suggest that we need INR 3 to INR 4 per unit of power for BESS as a service, which is just the act of porting the electricity from daytime to evening.
Okay. INR 3 to INR 4 per unit. Okay.
Yeah.
Lastly, just on the-
During cost of generation.
Okay. During cost of generation. Lastly, on the EBITDA side, there is a 31 crore of unallocated EBITDA; if you can just shed some light on that as well.
This is how the accounting part is done. The full EBITDA, because there are certain expenses in the EBITDA. The revenue is easy to allocate between two segments, but there are certain expenses. Given our business, it's not very easy to just allocate based on the megawatt basis, so that remains unallocated. It's more of an accounting way to think about it, guys, is it's done, allocation of revenue and cost to two different business segments is done as per accounting standards and in consultation, which is with our auditors, which is KPMG. Therefore, as per those accounting standards, there would have been some unallocated costs for EBITDA, which is sort of therefore identified that.
Okay. Just one more from my side. Any update on Bikaner to when do you expect the transmission line to fully get built and curtailment to completely go away? Anything you've heard from PGCIL side?
We don't know, honestly, as this number keeps changing. Therefore, we think we should all be prudent and assume that there is heavy curtailment for the rest of the financial year. Obviously, we fully respect and admire the speed and effort that the power grid and the government is making to rectify the issue. They are fully charged with it, and there's a lot of interaction which happens between all members of the renewable energy industry and the government, but it's difficult to hazard a guess. So I would say that to be conservative, we should assume it continues for the rest of the fiscal.
Understood. That's very helpful. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Thank you, Puneet.
Thank you. Participants who wish to ask a question, please press star and one. We take the next question from the line of Neil Ostwal from PGIM India Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on a very strong set of numbers. Sir, just one question. With respect to Tamil Nadu, are we seeing any delays with respect to C&I project approvals with respect to the new government? I just want some insight on that.
Thank you. I think there was one or two months of just, I would describe it as flux. I would not call it delay. Sometimes when political administration changes, there is just one or two months of flux. People are just waiting for some directions on how things are to move. But we do a project review every month, where the last one was just on this Saturday, and I remember in Tamil Nadu now the approvals are moving and the issues are getting sorted out. So I don't think there is structural continuing delay. There was maybe one or two months of flux once the new sort of government took over, but I think it's behind us now.
Sure, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Rajesh Vora from Jainmay Venture. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Congrats on strong growth and numbers, and I think the investor disclosures are amongst the best, so well done. I would like to ask, what is the competitive advantage your company has vis-à-vis competition in this business, and what is the market share we have?
Rajeshji, thanks for your compliment. I think the competitive advantage is around two or three things. First, in this business, any customer is contracting for the long run and therefore has some amount of risk because they are contracting for 23 years. Typically, on day one, a customer is putting in equity for a plant which is yet to be built. So the customer wants to be careful that, whom am I doing this with and what is the certainty or the de-risking on the project coming up and therefore my saving starting. Therein the fact that we are already present in seven states, have been the market leaders for the last 15 years, and have a pool of 600-plus customers who contribute typically three-fourths, or 75%, or more of our new volume growth every year is a huge advantage. So that is one aspect of it.
Second is, even this customer, whether he is an existing customer or a new customer, needs two or three key things from us. One, a mix of wind and solar power in states where you can have both. Because just solar power is not enough, you need wind also to complement and meet evening peak and nighttime load, whereas solar is more a daytime load. In most of the major industrial states of India, like Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, and Tamil Nadu, which are the four biggest C&I markets in this country, there is both wind and solar. First, we are able to supply wind and solar in all of those key geographies. Second, because of our scale, we have very large sites in each of those states and an ability to add brownfield capacity relatively quickly.
That gives customers the confidence that this capacity will come up relatively quickly. That is the second advantage that we do enjoy. I think one moat is around 600 customers, 80% of our new volumes from them, and it is a real moat because customer has a risk of investing equity, and what if the project does not come and so on. That is an important one. Second is the fact that we are able to do both wind and solar and offer power across 10 states because that is an important requirement of those customers. Therefore, in a market where in group captive, the average size per PPA is about 13 megawatts, that does become a critical success factor and advantage.
A root cause I always say, sir, is that what differentiates us from some of the other players, and all the big boys have at different points in time tried very hard to win in this market. But what differentiates us is the fact that sheer focus, this is 100% of our business for the last 15, 16 years. Yes, we appreciate that for a lot of big players, they feel that this is an attractive segment of the market, and we should do something there. All of you analysts only go and tell them, "Look at them. Without storage, tariff is INR 4. What is your tariff?" So, they feel the need to also say we will compete, but we feel very confident about our ability to continue winning. Lastly, I would highlight that this is not a winner-takes-all market. This is a highly fragmented market.
Even a market leader like us has 14% or so market share. We do not need to win every contract. We are not in every state. We are not in every client discussion. That is fine.
Very useful, very interesting perspective, Kuldeep Jain. The second question I would like to ask is, given the enormous opportunity that your business has, what is the current organization team and infra setup in terms of stability? What level of renewable power installation we can run successfully on an annual basis, let's say two, three years going forward?
Sure, sir. Thank you. I will answer it in two ways, sir. One is, as you have seen over the past 12 months already, we are adding at the pace of about 1,750 MW a year. This is what we have demonstrated in the past 12 months. So we have proven that our organizational machinery, whether that is project development, which is land buying, evacuation, and so on, or that is engineering, supply chain management, project execution, they can all deal with capacity addition at this pace. So this is one thing of the.
We have worked very hard over the last two or three years to increase our organizational capacity. Two years ago, we were adding 500 MW a year. We are now adding more than 1,500 MW a year, and we have demonstrated that by doing 1,700 MW in the trailing 12 months. So that is firstly demonstrated organizational capacity.
That said, sir, in any business which is growing so fast, it would be wrong to say that we have no gaps or no teams which do not need improvement. I would say that someone is lying if they said that. While on an analyst call, it would be inappropriate to share specific areas, but I can assure you that in just last Friday's board meeting, we did discuss five, six areas of gaps and what we are doing to address them with the NRC subcommittee of the board. So it is something which we consistently do to ensure that our organizational capacity to keep growing and expand into the bigger shoes we are getting into is intact.
That is very useful. If I can ask the last question.
In the last couple of years, or since March 2024, AI data center segment has grown something like 10x.
Yeah.
Non-data center industrial customers has doubled.
That's right, sir.
Yeah. Okay.
This is the period we show that, yes.
Wonderful. My next question is, can we repeat that in the following two years, or is there a potential?
Sir, if you look at it this way, the way I would look at it is we have had a 3x growth in contracted capacity in the past two years. 1,850 MW has gone to 6,000 MW. I do not think we should just look at it on a multiple basis, but let us look at it in terms of contracted capacity we have added.