Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Greenlam Industries Limited Q4 and FY 2024 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantee of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to project. As a reminder, all participant line will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Saurabh Mittal, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer, Greenlam Industries Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, friends, and a very warm welcome to all of you all. It's very hot in Delhi. You know, mercury touched 50, I believe, a couple of days back. I hope you're all keeping safe and healthy. On the call, I'm joined by Ashok, our CFO, and Samar from the finance team, and also by SGA, our investor relations advisor. The results have been put up on the stock exchanges and our company websites. I guess you'll have had a chance to look at it. So I'll give you a small brief about the performance and how we see business. So, Q4 was a reasonably satisfactory performance, as we see things, you know, in the market. We've done well, literally across, well, improved across businesses and categories in both domestic and international market.
In the core category of laminates, we've had one of the highest, and one of the highest, production and sales volume. It was about 5.2-odd million sheets in quarter four. But we've also, you know, done reasonably well on the margin front in the laminate segment. The new plant we started in Naidupeta, and as we had said in the previous call, has also more or less stabilized. And in quarter four, the factory's got to a better positive. So at the plant level, the new plant, in terms of operating parameters, performance, production, more or less has got settled, and it's winning business each month. And I think as we go ahead, you know, we'll see more improvements coming.
And now the challenges are more on the demand side and less on the plant and the supply side. In Decowood, Mikasa Flooring, too, we've had healthy volume and value growth, and both the segments have improved the performance. Mikasa Doors has improved little bit, but we're still, you know, at an EBITDA loss, and we hope, you know, we'll be able to turn that around very soon. In the plywood category, too, on the product quality, product performance, factory, I think we've done well. Things are more or less settled at the plant, and the product has been well appreciated in the market. Q- on- Q, we have grown reasonably well. We had about an INR 25 crore-INR 26 crore Q4 number.
So across, across most of the businesses, I would say, things are moving in the right direction. This is despite the domestic business being a bit slow, you know, in terms of demand and all that stuff, as we've been hearing from our partners and teams, and I'm sure you all have also heard that commentary from, you know, other building material industries. On the export front, too, I think we're winning more market share. The data we have, the exports from India has largely been flattish, and we won market share. And the Red Sea problem continues to exist. So I think, issues related to slight higher costs, longer delivery period, et cetera, you know, remains there.
Despite these issues, we're confident we'll be able to navigate these issues and continue to win more market share, both from the domestic, you know, players and also from international regional players, you know, in the markets we're operating in. So I think exports and domestic, you know, I think we'll be able to grow in both the, you know, markets across our categories. On the CapEx and new plants, like I said earlier, the Naidupeta, Andhra Pradesh laminate plant, the Tamil Nadu plywood plant, you know, both the plants are reasonably well settled now. We just have to ensure we bring in more orders and ramp up the production and, you know, profits and deliveries from those factories.
The Gujarat factory is also more or less settled with the last expansion we did in May 2023. We're in the midst of setting up of our Andhra Pradesh particle plant, and there have been some delays there. We've extended the commencement of commercial production from Q2- Q3. Our endeavor is to start it at the earliest, and the teams on the job, they're on the job to, you know, bring it up and running at the earliest possible. There's also been a slight increase in capital outlay there with increased capacity, you know, rated capacity of the plant has also gone up, which is already. We've communicated that to the exchanges and in our company presentations.
So otherwise, things are moving, I would say, in a good direction, right direction. You know, the working capital side, we've made slight improvements despite capitalizing two new plants and, you know, starting the Gujarat factory, the third line of Gujarat factory. Through the year, last year, if you see in, the performance really, that doesn't show up completely because of the higher interest cost, depreciation, larger capitalization, in FY 2024. We also had, increased manpower marketing costs because we had, team members joining us at, you know, two new factories and one brownfield plant. We had additional sales teams joining us in, plywood division. So clearly, I think, on the cost front, costs are elevated even on the working capital cycle.
You know, if you were to look at old and new or new plants and old business, so existing factories, existing business have done actually very well, but, it's, it's not completely visible because of, the expansions and the, new facilities, and which we are confident will get streamlined over a period of time.... So I think considering the environment, even as a, on an annualized basis, you know, I think we've done okay. Across categories, we've grown in both volume and value, laminates, veneer, flooring, doors. Plywood has been successfully launched. The plants at, plywood and, Andhra Pradesh laminate have also got stabilized. So I think that's a quick wrap up from my side. I will ask Ashok to please take you all through the other details, and then we'll be happy to respond to your queries.
Ashok, over to you.
Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, friends. I'll take you through the financial performance. For the Quarter 4, FY 2024 on a consolidated basis, our net revenue grew by 16.9% on year-on-year basis and grew by 10.8% on sequential basis to INR 624 crore. Gross margin grew by 420 basis points to 53% in this quarter. On a sequential basis, gross margin de-grew by 180 basis points. The gross margin in absolute terms grew by 27% to INR 331 crore, as compared to INR 260 crore in Q4 last year. EBITDA margin was down by 50 basis points and stood at 13.4% in this quarter, as compared to 13.9% in Quarter four last year, mainly on account of losses in plywood.
On a sequential basis, on a sequential basis, EBITDA margin grew by 80 basis points. EBITDA in absolute term grew by 12.8% to INR 83.5 crore in this quarter. Net profit for this quarter stood at INR 40.8 crore, as against INR 46.1 crore in Quarter Four last year. For the year as a whole, our consolidated net revenue grew by 13.8% and stood at INR 2,306 crore, as against INR 2,026 crore in last year. Gross margin was up by 610 basis points to 52.8% from 46.7% last year. Gross margin in absolute term grew by 29% to INR 1,219 crore, as compared to INR 947 crore last year.
EBITDA margin was up by 100 basis points to 12.8% from 11.5% last year. EBITDA in absolute term grew by 26.5% to INR 295 crore, as compared to INR 233 crore last year. Net profit grew by 7.8% to INR 138 crore, as against INR 128 crore last year. Now I'll move on to the sequential performance. First on the laminate. Laminate revenue grew by 9.2% on YoY basis and grew by 7.4 %, 4 % sequentially to INR 537 crore in this quarter. Volume growth stood at 11.9% on year-on-year basis. EBITDA margin stood at 16.6%, a growth of 100 basis points on YoY and 70 basis points on quarter-on-quarter basis.
Production volume were at the highest at 5.21 million sheets and at a utilization level of 85% on the installed capacity of 24.52 million. Sales volume for the quarter also was highest and stood at 5.23 million sheets. Our average realization for the quarter stood at INR 984 per sheet of the boards. Moving on to the annual performance for laminate, revenue grew by 10.1% to INR 2,040 crore from INR 1,852 crore last year. Volume grew by 11.3%. EBITDA margin stood at 16%, a growth of 290 basis points in comparison to last year. Production volume were at 19.85 million sheets, and utilization level on an annualized basis at 88%.
Sales volume for this year stood at 18.97 million sheets, and our average realization for the year was INR 1,032. Now I'll move on to the decorative veneer and allied segment, which consists of decor veneer, engineered floors, and engineered doors. In the decor veneer segment, revenue of decorative veneer business grew by 35% on year-on-year basis and grew by 34.6% on sequential basis to INR 33.6 crore. Volume grew by 37% on year-on-year basis. Revenue of decorative veneer business grew by 17.6% on an annualized basis to INR 125 crore from INR 106 crore last year. Volume grew by 15% on an annual basis.
Sales volume for the quarter stood at 0.42 million square meters, and for the year stood at 1.4 million square meters. Capacity utilization for the quarter was at 40%, and for the year stood at 33%. Average realization for the quarter was INR 862 per square meter, and for the year was INR 889 per square meter. Moving on to engineered wood flooring business. Revenue for the engineered wood flooring business grew by 68% on year-on-year basis and grew by 7.4% on sequential basis to INR 14.3 crore. Revenue for the year grew by 20% to INR 51 crore, as against INR 42.7 crore last year. Capacity utilization stood at 14% for the quarter, and 12% for the year.
The engineered wood flooring business is EBITDA positive since quarter three, and in this quarter also, it remains, it is on EBITDA positive. Engineered doors. Revenue of engineered doors business grew by 55% year-over-year, and 42% on sequential basis to INR 10 crore. Revenue for the of doors for the year grew by 32% to INR 32 crore, as against INR 24 crore last year. Capacity utilization for the quarter was at 18%, and for the year was at 16%. Now, moving on to another segment, plywood. Revenue for plywood business in this quarter stands at INR 26 crore, and for the year is at fifty-eight crore. Sales volume for this quarter was 1.04 million square meters, and for the year, 2.43 million square meters.
Capacity utilization for this quarter stood at 23%, and for the year as a whole, 14%. Average realization for this quarter was INR 251 per sq m, and for the year was INR 238 per sq m. In the current quarter, working capital cycle improved by 12 days to 60 days, as compared to 72 days in quarter three of this year. Net debt as on March 31 stood at INR 834 crore, as against INR 847 crore on December 31. Board has declared a final dividend of INR 1.65 per share of a face value of INR 1 each. That's all from my side. Now, I would like to open the floor for question and answer. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Keshav Lahoti from HDFC Securities . Please go ahead.
Hi, thank you for the opportunity. Congratulations, sir, on decent set of number in all the segments. Firstly, I just want to understand, this ocean freight expense is booked under other expenses?
Yes.
What I can see-
Yes, Keshav.
Yeah. So if I see your gross margin in laminate segment, so there is a decline now of 1% this quarter-over-quarter. So is it due to some inch up in raw material costs, change in mix, or whether the ocean freight is not completely passed on? Because ideally, what will happen if ocean freight rate charges have increased, the gross margin should improve, because your realization improves that way.
Keshav, it will not have any impact on the realization, because whatever additional ocean freight that is charged to the customer, and that is no impact on the PNL also. Why it is gone up on a quarter. Since the quarter three is the yearly closing, so we get some TOD on some of our purchases, so which get accounted for in the quarter three. And that comes in the quarter three only. So there is no other changes in terms of that.
Okay, got it. So ocean freight is completely passed on. That's what the correct understanding is, nothing company have to bear. And what is sort of, what sort of gross margin is sustainable for laminate segment, in your view, in this year?
It is passed on in most of the cases, except on a case-to-case basis, where in some cases, company may bear, and that's on a case-to-case basis. But in most of the cases, it gets passed on, and that is a surcharge. It's passed on as a surcharge on the incremental ocean freight. So we have defined a certain internal rate with the customer that till X ocean freight, we bear, and beyond that, the customer pays.
Understood. Got it. What should be the sustainable gross margin for this year? What is your view on that?
It is in the same range, if we take into account the stable raw material prices, which is in laminate, raw material prices are stable. And veneer and allied segment also, raw material prices are stable, except in plywood, where the cost of timber is going up. Otherwise, it looks to be in the same range.
Okay, got it. On the Naidupeta laminate plant, so what was the EBITDA for this quarter? Like last quarter, you have given this number.
Since this has become the EBITDA positive, and since this is on a company-wide basis, we normally see the EBITDA, because the plywood, laminate capacity is always fungible from one plant to another plant. But it has become EBITDA positive in this quarter.
Okay, understood. That is great to hear. And last question on this particle board, because now particle board plant is pushed by a quarter.... So earlier you have guided 20% sort of revenue growth in FY 2025. So should the guidance be lower? And the reason why the size of particle board plant is increased also.
So, on the guidance, I think we still are maintaining about 20% revenue growth with some value, some value of revenue coming in from the particle board plant. As far as the next question?
In terms of the why the capacity increase has gone up, so, this plant is a continuous process plant and consists of various equipment. And we have mentioned in the past also that we are looking, we are doing some engineering in terms of that. So now, it has been everything has been received at the level, at the plant, and we got the final production or final from reaching to agreement with the supplier. So that's how this is coming 886, which is the guaranteed output from the supplier. So that's why there is some increase.
So at the time when it has been finalized, so there are, before finalization, the announcement happens and keeping in mind what our target is, but actual may vary and the guaranteed output may vary.
Understood.
One of the reason for some price increase, some cost increase is, can be attributed to this also.
Okay, got it. Thank you. That's it from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rishab Bothra from Anand Rathi. Please go ahead.
Hello. Congratulations on good. Hope all is well at your end because of the heat. Everyone is keeping cool.
Sorry, Rishab, your voice is not coming clearly.
Is it better now?
Yeah.
So, I'm saying, hope everyone is okay in this heat wave at Delhi.
We're all good.
So, I have two questions. First, on the laminates. Do we do an ABC analysis in terms of the product mix, and which one contributes the most? Is it the premium? Is it the economy? Is it the mass?
So, yeah, the premium value-added product percentage overall as a is higher.
Can you start sharing the same in our presentation as well going forward, if possible?
No, we do not wish to do that.
Okay, okay. And secondly, you mentioned that there has been a softness in input price, prices for laminates. However, plywood prices were, timber prices were on the higher side, correct?
Yeah. So the prices of all other part in terms of laminate is stable. I will not say it's softening, but it's stable. Some prices may up and down on a routine basis, but it's more or less stable. The timber prices, yes, correct, is going up in the plywood segment. That's what the commentary from the other players also. But yeah, it is going up. It has gone up in the south zone as well as, I believe, in the north also.
Okay. But one thing I would like to understand, timber input price, input is mostly imported, correct? Whereas, in,
Plywood-
laminate.
For Plywood it is...
Sorry, my mistake. Laminate is purely imported. For plywood, it's domestic, correct?
No. In laminate also, it is mix of import. Some of the items are mostly import, like Decor Paper is mostly import. In chemicals, 50% is imported, 50% is domestic. And, Kraft Paper is mostly domestic. But yeah, you can say that it will be like 50%-60% import, remaining domestic. In terms of plywood, yeah, everything is domestic.
Okay. So why I asked this question is I wanted to understand whether the pricing has been on a declining trend for input, or is it because of the currency movement?
It is stable. I say that prices are stable.
In terms of the-
It did gone down in the last year, but in quarter four, we have seen the stable pricing trend for the laminate.
Okay. Coming to veneer segment, veneer revenue growth has been quite strong. Which region or which segment is driving such revenue growth in the veneer space? And where does our UT presence stand?
Veneer consists of three categories, veneer, flooring and doors, veneer and allied category. So veneer growth is like, we've grown about 17% in the year. But actually, if you look at pre-COVID, you know, we've not grown much. You know, so it went down post-COVID, and now it's coming back, you know, to a certain level. So yes, you know, from a last year data or two year data, you see, you see growth, but you would go back, you know, pre-COVID, the veneer business was doing better, and it slipped, you know, at COVID and post-COVID. It's inching back, and it's largely a domestic model.
Correct. And sir, what steps are we taking in order to promote or enhance the use of veneer and the door, wooden door and wooden flooring? Because I guess wooden door and wooden flooring is largely builder-driven. Correct?
So, no, so let me explain this to you. So the flooring business is driven through projects. Projects like, you know, premium projects, could be like a Supreme Court or, you know, a High Court or a central restaurant, for example, hotels, you know, and home, which is through the channel partners for retail building. Not builder-driven so much. The door model is a mix between a builder-driven model and the designer door, you know, through dealers and retailers where homeowners who are building new homes. So it's a blend. It's not just one category of customers we are focusing on.
Got it. But wherever there is large project, is it, bidding does take place, or how is it? How the contracts are get assigned?
So for which, like, when you say large project, of what kind?
For the flooring tile, you mentioned it. You bid for annual.
So we don't bid for it because our categories are, our categories are specification-driven. They are decorative in nature. So typically, an architect, an interior designer would specify the product, put it in the BOQ, and then the contractor will go to, to the customer, and because we are specified, they will take a price from us. And if there are alternative, specifications also, he'll compare, you know, and then make a decision.
So, uh-
We don't bid in these product projects directly. So these are bid by the contractor who will be doing that work. So contractor procures the material. We will work with the architect, interior designer, where our product gets specified, and as and when the contractor starts the work, they will procure from the companies whose products are specified. We don't bid in this project directly.
Got it. Two more questions, if I may ask?
Yes, please.
So any price hikes to be considered for the laminates and veneers segment, I mean, product category?
So, no price hike, price hikes have been planned for lam and allied and veneer allied. Price hikes have been planned for plywood business.
Got it. Sir, one more thing. In terms of the capacity utilization, we are moving towards almost 85%-90% in terms of laminates.
Right.
Are there further plans to expand capacity? I mean, this is blended capacity utilization you are mentioning, right?
Yeah. What, last year was 85 point-
88% .
88% on an annualized basis.
Correct.
So clearly, with the plans we have, I think towards the end of this, like, if you see FY 2025, we should be, you know, capacity should increase. And we've said this before in our South India plant in Andhra Pradesh and our plant in Gujarat, we have adequate space and, you know, space to do multiple brownfield expansions. So if and when we plan, we'll expand capacities in these two plants.
So, since our overall capacity is 24.52 million square million sheets, and last year, 88%, what you see is the, is the annualized capacity. And because the Naidupeta plant has come towards the end of the quarter two, so only six months was available. So we have enough capacity for at least for the this year. So as of now, if you see, we will be close to around 80% of the overall capacity. So we have enough capacity for this year and, and so we'll plan as and when we reach near to the, like, 95% or full utilization, we will do. And in the past also, we have done more than 100% utilization in these plants, so we have enough time to plan for that.
Got it. Got it. What will be the go-to-market strategy for the plywood and the particleboard side? I understand first year of operation, definitely there will be some hiccups, but on a longer timeframe, how do we capture market?
On the ply,
As well as the particle.
It's not what will be. You know, we've already started selling in the market, so it's a company to a dealer format. Yeah, so it's company to a dealer format, and, you know, one works with influencers to create demand. And the acceptance has been very good, like I said in my commentary earlier, of the product quality. And we've been appointing, we've already opened a number of dealers and number of towns, et cetera.
Uh.
It's gradually, you know. As far as particle boards are concerned, we'll be having a model of company to large furniture makers and company to stockists, who will kind of, you know. And then if you want more details, you know, you can connect client, you know?
Correct. I'll come back in queue for the questions later. Thanks a lot for the answering my queries.
Sure.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Bhavin Rupani from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir, thanks for the opportunity. My first question is related to laminates, sir. Sir, is it possible to provide what are the utilizations, utilization levels of Naidupeta plant?
For the quarter, it was around 42%.
All right, sir. Sir, if we exclude the revenues from Naidupeta plant and assuming no significant contribution at EBITDA level, is it correct that implied margins could move up to 18%-18.5% in the laminates division? Is my understanding correct? Thank you, sir.
Well, this year our margin is in the range of around 16%. And we believe that if the stable raw material prices, it should be in this range. Of course, with as and when the volume get built up, it may slightly go up, but it's difficult to comment whether it will reach to 18%, 19% as of now. But the stable margin is in the range of this, what we are as of now.
... All right. Sir, you mentioned about the brownfield expansions in laminates. Is it possible to quantify capacity expansions which are possible in AP and Gujarat plant?
I think we've said this earlier. We can put up to anything within 6-8 production lines, you know, in both the plants.
So when you say 6-8 production lines, one production line consists of-
We can, we can add, let's say, we can add approximately another. So this will depend upon in terms of volume, this will depend upon dimension, which dimension we are putting, whether we are putting only for the sheets or whether we are putting for the, for the boards. While for putting for the sheets, then it's a 2 million, one line can generate, one line capacity can be 2 million sheets. But we are not sure, like in, like in Naidupeta, we have put three press, but the capacity is 3.5 million. Had we decided to put only the sheets, this would have been 6 million. So it's difficult to, as of now, to tell what will be the capacity in terms of sheets and board.
Yeah, 6-8 line, as far as mentioned, we can put at these locations.
Got it, sir. And is it possible to quantify what will be the additional CapEx for putting up one line?
Again, normally the one line CapEx, if it is only for the line, then it ranges around INR 40 crore-INR 50 crore. But when you go up after beyond one or two lines, then you have to add other equipments, also, boiler, resins, and all this also. So it will depend at that moment of time. But we will for sure be, and after some time you might have to do the civil construction building also, but for sure it will be lesser than a greenfield, putting up a greenfield unit.
Got it, sir. And sir, as far as particle board is concerned, how should one understand the utilization levels in case of particle boards for year, let's say, year one, two, and three?
So first year, year two and three, we expect that it will be in the range of around 50%-70%.
Sorry, sir, I missed you. For year three, you're saying 70%?
Around year two, we are budgeting around 50%, and year three is around 70%-75%.
All right. Got it, sir. Sir, last question is related to plywood. Sir, assuming we are majorly capitalizing on the already existing dealer base of laminates for plywood, why are our utilizations still at 23% despite running the plant for nine months? Is it that we are purposely going slow or the demand scenario is weak? How should one understand that?
So one, we are only operating in the premium segment of plywood, and we're also operating in the geography of the five southern states. We've just added Maharashtra to the market list starting April 2024. So if you see the premium segment, volume ramp-up, price realization, network we've created, is actually pretty good versus, you know, anybody else in the market or the top two, three players in that region. So I, I think it's, we think it's going in the right direction. And the premium category, there is more working to be done in terms of demand generation. Even if you build the network, you have to create demand in the market, and, you know, specifications and demand generation just takes more time than we, you know, think it takes.
So I think we're just in the journey of creating this. So even have a number we did last year in the plywood business, you know, we already are the top, I think, five or six companies, if you add up veneer and the ply together, you know. So, so I think we think it's going in the right direction. It's not necessarily slow. It could have been better, yeah, but it's not necessarily slow.
And, adding to what sir has said, this plywood, it's not that it has been offered to all the dealers of the laminate, because the overall dealers network will be more than 25,000, and plywood doesn't need to be that much distributed. It's not a distribution product. So it is offered to a mix of dealers, new dealers, as well as from our own channel also. Like as sir has said, it is only for the 4-5 states, and where the number of dealers in plywood is substantially lesser number of dealers are required for plywood.
All right. Got it, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Divyanshu Mahawar from Dalal & Broacha Stock Broking Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. Just, I wanted to know a bookkeeping question. Can you provide us domestic and export volume for the full year and quarter basis?
Sorry, come again.
Sir, can you provide us the domestic and export volume for full year on a quarter basis?
We probably can. We can do that offline.
Yeah, sir.
Yeah, we will, we will come back to you on this.
Okay, sir. Yeah. And second question is on a gross margin dip in the laminate business, is it due to price cut or a product mix? Just wanted to know about this. On a Q-Q basis, gross margin dip was due to price cut or a product mix. I just wanted to know about that.
No, you are asking in terms of why it has dipped from the quarter three?
Yeah, yeah. 160, it has been dipped, no? So the reason it is due to the price cut we have taken on a product, change in product mix, yeah, it has dipped.
We are, we are not taking any product, any price cuts, as I mentioned to you in this call. But on a yearly basis, we receive some TOD, which we have received in quarter three, so that's why the gross margin was higher in the plywood segment, in the laminate segment on that quarter. So we are not taking any price cut in terms of that. So 54%-55% is the, is the gross margin, which we believe that we should be in that range.
Okay, sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for the opportunity. My question is pertaining to the, you know, the volume growth for laminate business. If you can give some sense about how the full year growth has been in the exports and the domestic segment, and how do you see it evolving over the next couple of years? And any particular initiative you want to highlight for domestic as well as export markets for laminate business?
So, Achal, the growth for domestic business was 15%, and for the export business was 6.3%. Overall growth was, for the volume, over the 11.3%.
This is for the quarter or full year, sir?
This is for the full year.
For the full year. Okay.
On the outlook, we think we should grow in double digits in volume over the next few years.
Okay, and-
Not much to highlight or communicate on that. It's the routine, multiple efforts and, you know, we're moving on a certain path in terms of a strategy execution. I think we're just in that journey.
And add to this, that since we have added the Naidupeta plant, where we have added some of the category where we were having the supply constraint, and with the 6 by 14, which we have added previously, we didn't have this. So this also helping us in terms of gaining some more, volume in terms of.
Understood. Any comment you would like to make with respect to competitive intensity? You know, we are seeing couple of players, you know, being a bit more aggressive in the domestic market in the laminate segment. So, are you seeing any change, material change in terms of the competitive intensity in the laminate business, in terms of the newer SKU or pricing?
The competition intensity has always been there in our categories, and I'm not sure if that's changed much. Somebody gets more aggressive, somebody gets less aggressive, so I think there's always, you know, action from that perspective. As far as pricing is concerned, I think really, you know, when you price cut is the first thing to do. But our category, as we know, needs a lot of resources. You know, price cuts are not normally, are not necessarily the only way to win more market share.
Right.
Yes, you know, so it's like routine, I would say, not say... I wouldn't want to mention anything specific. You know, sometimes there are two, three new companies, they get more aggressive, some, you know, burn out a bit. So it keeps going on, whether it's export or domestic. You know, it's, business as usual, maybe, yeah.
Understood. And just last question, if I may, you know, with respect to margins, you know, given the product mix, what we have, the segment mix in terms of domestic exports, the premium, non-premium, et cetera, the 16% is very much sustainable, or you think there is scope to add, you know, expand margins, for the laminate business?
So can't say much on that. Really, our effort will be to continuously keep building the business correctly, and if volume growth happens, value growth happens, we keep our pricing discipline. Costs are stable, you know, so should lead to some improvements. Can't say much on it. I think, you know, can't comment much. I think we keep building the business correctly, and I'm sure the outcome should be decent here.
Understood. Thank you so much, and wish you all the best. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, Achal.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Dinesh Karia from Antique Stock Broking. Please go ahead.
Yes, thank you for the opportunity. The first question is with regards to the realization. So in the laminate segment, the fourth quarter realizations are down both sequentially and on a YoY basis. So is this because of higher contribution from the Gujarat plant, or it's sustainable and we should take the exit run rate of FY 2024 as the realization going forward? Any comment on that?
I think the realization, what you are seeing is the general realization which we believe that going forward should happen on this one. Some amount of plus and minus can happen depending upon the product mix or the mix of export and domestic changes, if it happens. But we believe this is the price which is there, which should, going forward, we will be able to maintain.
... Sure. Thank you. So next is on the margin guidance. So any guidance on the margins on a blended basis and on- for the laminate segment for the next, 2-3 years?
In the laminate, we have already mentioned that the margin which is there, we would like to continue with this margin what we are as of now having. We believe that we will be able to maintain this margin. The blended margin this year is 12.8%, and we believe that this should be in this range, or it may go up as and when the new product category which we are into they stabilize and start contributing more in terms of the margin.
Okay. So next is, we guided for a particle board utilization level of 50% and 70%-75% for the second and third year. So what... And we, earlier we were guiding a margin of 20%-25% for the segment. So at what utilization level should we see the particle board segment contributing 20% margin?
This, we are expecting in the fourth year of operation. Again, the margin will depend upon the overall how the price move, both in terms of the raw material, and as you know, because right now the timber prices are on a higher mode, and how the price movement happens into the sales price also. We are expecting this to happen, the 25%, 24% within fourth year of operation.
Okay. So for the first three years it will be under, in maintained kind of a number?
Well, everything will depend upon how the market scenario in terms of raw material and sales pricing.
Okay, no problem. Sir, if you could just help us with the EBITDA margin number for doors and floor segment for the full year?
Yeah. The EBITDA margin for the floor were INR -1 crore, and floor was INR -1 crore, and door was INR -5.6 crore.
Okay, just one last question. Last quarter, we said that we have acquired a land in Uttar Pradesh for future, capacity expansion. So any finalization of plans or consideration that we are having, maintaining your expansion plan, maybe end of this year or something?
Nothing as of now. As of now, we are not. As of now, there is no plan to put anything. We have, and as of now, we are focused on what we are implementing. So we are in the process of getting all the approvals in place, et cetera. But that's the stage we are at on the Uttar Pradesh land.
Okay, and just one last question. What would be the CapEx outflow for this year for the particle board unit? And, if you can just break it down into maintenance CapEx also for FY 2025 and FY 20 26 onwards.
So this year, since the particle board unit is under implementation, so we expect around INR 250-INR 273 crore in this year, and another around INR 50 crore of maintenance CapEx in this year. Going forward, after the particle board unit put into place, so then you can expect around INR 50 crore of CapEx, maintenance CapEx, on a routine basis.
Okay, and this INR 250 crores of Particle Board will be debt funded. So we expect, what will the peak debt, broad question that I'm going to ask?
So the peak debt this year, as on thirty-first March, it was INR 134 crore, peak net debt. Net debt was there.
Okay.
Yeah. We expect it. Yeah, INR 834 net debt was there. We expect it to be in the range of around INR 925-INR 950 in this year. That will be the peak debt, peak net debt which we are hoping.
Okay. With the increased particle board CapEx, the asset turnover still remains near 1x at the peak utilization level?
At the current prices, it will be slightly lower than that, but everything will depend upon how the prices shapes up going forward when we reach, which will be like when we reach near to the full utilization.
That's very helpful. Thank you for answering all the questions and all the-
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aasim from DAM Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, good evening. Just one question. So once the plywood and particle board businesses scale up and reach optimal levels in 2-3 years' time, what does that do to our blended working capital line items? Just some insights on, you know, working capital days. Would receivables go up since we are new in these new segments, or would the overall inventory go down because laminate becomes a smaller part? Some insights on these, please.
So, as you rightly said, that inventory will come down, inventory may come down in terms of number of days because both this business doesn't need that much inventory what a laminate business needs. In terms of receivables, what you said may not be correct. As of now, also in the plywood business, our number of days are healthy, and we will try to maintain that going forward also. So we believe that the overall working capital number of days will be in the same range, because if the inventories are down, so the creditors' days are also down, because most of the procurement happens domestically, and that too, where the creditors' days are not there, or immediate payment or seven days payment, which is happened.
We believe it should be in the range of 60-65 days only, what we are at present.
...Understood. That was the only question. The other question got answered. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Bhavin Rupani from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the follow-up. So when you say double digit volume growth in case of laminates, can one assume mid-teens or high double digit?
You have my prediction. Can't say much. I think it's somewhere in the double digit space. So obviously, we have capacities available, and we have greenfield expansion possibilities available. Yes, but can't say beyond that.
All right. So in case of particle boards, apart from 2 large peers, any sense on how much additional capacities are coming up in India over the next 2-3 years?
sense we have is that we have one closest competitor in terms of size and scale and quality of equipment and capabilities, et cetera. And then one more competitor, which is coming up, with a Chinese plant. Besides that, what we know, there are not any or many, large size or plants of our size coming up. There are smaller plants coming up of 200-300 cubic meters in various parts of the country, which is on a multi-daylight or a Chinese technology, you know, system, but I don't have an exact number for it.
All right. Last question is related to utilization levels. Sir, at what utilizations particle board plant should break even?
It will depending upon the raw material prices, it should be within 40%-50%.
Okay, so you earlier said 50% utilization you expect in year two. So can one assume that in year two we'll break even for particle board?
We expect it to.
All right. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rishab Bothra from Anand Rathi. Please go ahead.
Hello. Just wanted to-
Hi.
-understand the global situation. I think the Russia-Ukraine war still continues. Middle East, there is disturbance. What's your sense, how things will pan out? And in terms of the, climatic condition change, there are fires in the forest as well, wildfires. So how do we secure the orders in terms of, in national market as well as the raw materials security?
So I think that's quite a good question you've asked me. I can say that, as far as, this in relationship to our business, on one side, there are imports of, equipments and decor paper and some other imports. As we talk, besides the longer lead time due to Red Sea, more or less things are under control. You know, whatever impact or whatever, major impact had to happen has already happened. And, unless again something significant happens, I think that chain remains more or less okay. As far as exports are concerned, like we said earlier, we, we see our market share, increasing both as exports from India, and we also taking market share away from regional and international companies in different geographies.
So I think, we are reasonably well positioned in terms of capacities, location of capacities. Our two capacity ports are set up internationally with inventory on ground in many markets, with our local teams in many geographies. So I think we are reasonably well positioned. And, so I think from a war point and all that, I think that the impact already, you know, at least what we know, we've already absorbed that, yeah. So that's it, yeah. But obviously, there are many other fallouts. You know, like people say, timber pulp doesn't come in, pulp's getting expensive, so timber costs have come up so, we can't do much about it. We just go and deal with the problem.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you, friends. Thank you for taking the time and having a patient hearing from our side. In case you have any more questions and queries, you can reach out to us or to our investment advisors. Thank you.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
On behalf of Greenlam Industries Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.