Good evening, and a very warm welcome to all for the Investors and Analysts Meet 2023 of Greenlam Industries Limited. I'm Manasi Bodas from Strategic Growth Advisors. Today, we have with us on the dais, management represented by Mr. Saurabh Mittal, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Ashok Sharma, Chief Financial Officer, and Mr. Samarth Agarwal, VP Finance from Greenlam Industries Limited. We will first take you through the presentation, which contains overview, key strategic initiatives, and growth drivers. After the presentation concludes, we will be open to take questions from the audience. I would now request Mr. Saurabh Mittal to address the audience. Over to you, sir.
Good evening, friends, and a very warm welcome again from my side for the analyst meet and investor conference. Samarth and Ashok will take you through the business presentations, and I'll be happy to address your queries and questions post that. So I'll hand over the dais to Samarth now, and then following which, Ashok will take you through the numbers. Samarth comes.
Thank you, sir. Good evening to everyone. Thank you for taking out time from a busy result season and to hear us out. We'll just go through the presentation in a brief. The presentation is already uploaded on the stock exchange, and I hope you got a chance to look at it. So we'll just start with the presentation on a brief note, that what we have done and, you know, how the business... we have structured the business for a multi-year and a sustainable growth outlook that we have. Yeah. On the. So over the last 18 months, we have done, you know, executed the projects. We have announced the projects in December 2021. We have executed them. A couple of them has been on stream. One of them is under construction.
These have been a record delivery in terms of times, where we have demonstrated how we have set up the plywood unit in Tamil Nadu, Tindivanam, and how we've done the laminate unit in Naidupeta, Andhra Pradesh. These commissioning demonstrates that the company is dedicated to look at, you know, maintaining capital efficiency and continuing to add shareholders value, and making a sustainable growth over the next period of time. Just to give a glimpse, you know, the capacity that we have in the laminate business was about 15.62 million sheets, and over the last 18 months, this has increased by almost 57% to now 24.52 million sheets.
Which is by adding, by acquiring and turning around a plant in Gujarat, it is in Prantij, which has a capacity now of 5.4 million sheets, and in Naidupeta, Andhra Pradesh, which has a capacity of 3.5 million sheets and boards. With the Naidupeta, unit, you know, we also introduced our second large size of laminates, which is 6x 14. Earlier, we had 6x 12 in Nalagarh. Now, we've added 6x 14. This Naidupeta plant and Prantij plant, both are proximate to the port, one on the western side and one on the southern side of the country, which gives us a leverage in terms of, quicker turnaround times and in terms of, quick delivery and servicing the, customers.
So just to give a you know brief of who we are and what we have done and where we started all this journey almost three decades back now. We laid the foundation of our first laminate unit in Behror, Rajasthan, in 1993. The laminate business has been spearheaded by Mr. Mittal, sir. Over the last two and a half decades, he has been involved deeply into the business, with a professional team running the show here. We have you know from a two manufacturing unit, we have now up five units, one in Behror, Rajasthan, Nalagarh, Himachal Pradesh, Prantij, Gujarat, Tindivanam, Tamil Nadu, and Naidupeta, Andhra Pradesh. The products that we manufactured in the wood panel industry, you know, from a substrate, which is now plywood, to laminates, ply, veneers, floorings, and doors. The...
Since we are a large exporter in the laminate business, the certifications that we have, the standards that we maintain in terms of our certifications, which goes to matching the European standards to the Asian standards, you know, we have all our PEFC, FSC certifications in place, and we can be as good as any international player on the laminate business. So a true leader in the business, you know, we have the largest capacity of laminate as of now. We are the largest exporter of laminates for the last 12 consecutive years, and we are the only manufacturer of real wood floorings in the country, and the first organized manufacturer of engineered doors.
Again, a first in the industry that we have been funded by International Finance Corporation for our project in Naidupeta, Andhra Pradesh. That's one of the first things that has happened in the wood panel industry. We have a very eminent board, which has been very engaging, highly value additive. We have, you know, added members in the board, you know, led by Mr. Shiv Prakash Mittal, sir, who is the non-executive chairman; niner. Saurabh Mittal, sir; Parul ma'am, Sandip Das ji, Matangi ma'am, Yogesh Kapurji, Rahul, sir, and then Mr. Jalaj Dani, sir. So all these board members are actively, you know, providing their inputs to the business as well. So on a growth journey, if you look at it in 1993, when we laid the foundation of our first Behror plant.
Then in 2005, you know, in 2002, we started the decorative veneer business. In 2005, we started the first international subsidiary. Then in 2009, we set up the Nalagarh unit, the second laminate plant of the group or the business. Then we have set up the subsidiaries in the U.K. in 2012. Then the major event happened, which is the demerger in 2014, October 2014, precisely 9 years from today's date. Then in 2019, you know, we have added another—we have acquired another company in Switzerland, and we've incorporated Greenlam South, under which we are doing the large CapEx plans as of now.
Then we have acquired HG Industries Limited, which is having the plywood unit and is actually on the verge of getting merged with Greenlam Industries. And then we issued our first listed NCDs in 2022, and acquired Prantij Plant and successfully turned it around as well also. We raised equity in 2022 to the extent of INR 195 crore. And then we have in 2023, again, we have commenced the production for the plywood as well as the laminate unit. So this is the journey that we have gone through in last three decades, which is again you know setting up the show for the future to come. A glimpse of our major brands here, led by you know Greenlam Laminates. Under the laminate brands, we have Greenlam Laminates and NewMika.
Then we have a Clads, Greenlam Clads brand for the interior and exterior clads, and then the Sturdo brands, which does the restroom cubicles and the locker solution. On the wood business side, you know, we have Decowood Veneers, again, a flagship brand for natural engineered antique veneers. Then you have Mikasa, which handles the door, floor, as well as the recently launched Mikasa Ply brand as well. Coming to the products, you know, I'll take you through the individual products that we have and how these products are, you know, relevant, and have created the business. The flagship business or the majority of the business that comes from is the laminate business.
Laminates, as we all commonly use in all our day-to-day furniture and, you know, our interior works is, you know, comes in various thickness, sizes, finishes, textures, and, you know, right from 3, 3 foot by 7 foot to a 6 foot by 14 foot sizes that has been recently added. You know, over 10,000 SKUs that we do, which can, you know, which comes in too various finishes, which is your matte, suede, gloss, your super gloss, and your thicknesses, which can range from 0.6mm, 0.7 m to as high as 25mm-30 mm as well, which is used for manufacturing, you know, your cubicles, your restrooms, your locker solutions. It has various applications in your day-to-day, you know, interiors.
You can use it in furniture, you can use it for your facade claddings, you know, you can use it for your interior paneling, and practically all your surfacing solutions, laminate has an answer to it. Coming to the clads, which is your interior and exterior clads. This is one of the most sustainable products and an alternative used for your façade cladding. Highly appreciated category creation in the industry, wherein you know, your exterior, your home exteriors can be beautifully façade with the, you know, using the laminate. So these are more sustainable, these are anti-graffiti, these are anti dust pollution, UV rays protective, comes with a large warranty from our side.
Clads has been, you know, Clads and the Sturdo business, which is your restroom cubicles, which is covered here, is a kind of a category creation itself. So these are being widely used in the international market, and these are being adopted now in the domestic market, and kind of opens up avenues for, you know, higher usage of and alternate usage of laminates in various forms and sizes. On the restroom cubicle side, we have just now launched a latest collection and a refreshed, complete refreshed collection of our restroom cubicles. A couple of samples have been placed at the back. We would love for you to see those samples and catalogs. These restroom cubicles have been designed by the eminent British designers and comes in different shapes and, you know, from application perspective.
Also, now, along with these restroom cubicles, we do provide shower panels, we do provide stand-in benches, stand-on platforms, benches, vanities, etc., which can now be made using our compact laminates. So that can be one of the larger usage. Again, a category creation there, wherein you can make higher usage of laminates across the industry. Coming to Melamine Faced Chipboard, you know, right now, we don't have the MFC board production facility. That is under construction, with the particle board coming up in the Naidupeta. Right now, we only do a lamination on the chipboard. We buy a chipboard and do a lamination and sell it as a complementary product to an OEM segment.
And, you know, melamine faced chipboard is one of the largest used product in the furniture industry, in the office fabrication, in any of your readymade furnitures, your, all your, you know, office interiors, your kitchen works, your furnitures can use melamine faced chipboard, which is a pre-laminated particle board also, as we call, and being extensively used now. Coming to the wood category, you know, again, veneers, led by decorative Decowood Veneer brand, is again, the largest in the industry that we have. Decowood Veneers comes under three subcategories, which are natural veneers, engineered and teak.
Again, an alternative to laminates, you know, where—which is an expensive, this is natural wood, which is applied on your furniture, all your premium housing, premium offices, your premium pro areas, where decorative veneers can be used as a furnishing or a surface product. Sorry. Back on the engineered wood flooring, again, we are the only manufacturers of engineered wood flooring in the country, wherein we use the entire the top layer of the product is the veneer. The bottom layer is made out of the pine wood. It's a real real wood flooring that is an alternative to the flooring requirements. Keep your floors cool, keep your floor and gives you a very aesthetic, sorry, aesthetic look of the floors.
This is one of the premium, you know, used in the premium housing and the premium condominiums, the flooring segment here. Coming to the engineered wooden doors and frames, again, we are the only organized manufacturer of this category in the country, where we manufacture doors, which are used in hospitality, used in education, used for your any public areas, your interiors, your house doors, et cetera. So we have a, you know, unlike a traditional doors, which are made on the site, we are doing it in offsite, where we manufacture the entire door at the factory. We're using CNC machines, and these are made to order sizes, and that can be installed at the projects.
So these are largely B2B business, wherein, you know, these are not retail, where we are present and where a five or a 10 door order can be taken. But these are large project businesses where we take larger size orders. Coming to the recently launched product, which is plywood. You know, this facility is based in Tindivanam, Tamil Nadu. The single largest location manufacturing of plywoods with a capacity of 18.9 million sheets. This comes in various size again and thicknesses. And can be, you know, again, a sub, a substrate product, which can, you know, which is giving us a migration from a surfacing surfacing solution company to a substrate company now.
So with this and with the particle board getting added in the next year, we will be an integrated player, wherein, you know, we provide a substrate solutions as well as, as the, surface solutions also. So on the, plywood, again, this has been, the quality has been very well received. We manufacture 100% calibrated plywood. And, again, you know, plywood is a very, very, widely used material in the wood panel space. So coming to the green credentials, again, as I said, that we being the largest exporter of laminates in the country, and we export to length and breadth geographies across the world. Our certifications do match any level of international players, wherein either it's a European standards or an American standards and, you know, couple of certifications. You know, we are certified.
Our products are largely certified for IGBC Green Building. We have Greenguard Gold and, again, Greenguard Certification, so, and so on and so forth. So these certifications make the product comparable to any of the international players that you have. Now, again, one of the important slides there, wherein you will find the capacities consolidated. We have five manufacturing units, led from north, which is in Nalagarh, northwest, which is Behror, Rajasthan. Then on the west, which is Gujarat, and then southern, there are two factories. One is in Tindivanam for plywood, and then one in Naidupeta for laminates and particle boards. Out of this, four of the factories or four of the plants produce laminates. Except for Tindivanam, all of them has laminate production facilities.
We have the largest capacity in the country for laminates, which is 24.5 million sheets per annum. Again, for the decorative veneers, the, and veneers floors and doors, the capacities are, 4.2 million square meters, for veneers, 1 million square meters for floors, and 120,000 doors per annum. And door, floor, and veneers are in Behror only, which is in Rajasthan plant. Rest of plants are largely laminates, and one is in, Tindivanam for plywood. So particle board plant that we have announced shall come up, by quarter four of, this financial year. This is again, based out of Naidupeta.
We have a corporate office in Delhi, and we have two experience centers that we have created, one in the one in Kolkata, which is the eastern part of the country, and one in Ahmedabad. So these experience centers kind of displays all the products and the applications that we have and gives the customer a one roof you know display of all the interior requirements that he would have. And so this is all this infrastructure is supported by nine regional distribution centers, which are strategically located across the country, where and our our staff or rather our employees, which are there almost in 200-odd countries present on ground, which are working in terms of generating the business.
This is largely supported by the overall employee strength, which is roughly about 6,500+, as of 30th September. Photographs, pictures of our manufacturing units. The first one in Behror, on top left. The right one is Nalagarh, Himachal Pradesh. The left on the bottom row is Prantij, Gujarat. The middle on the bottom row is Tindivanam, Tamil Nadu, and the right one on the bottom row is the Naidupeta plant. So all of them, yeah. Coming to the global footprint, you know, as we are widely present in India in length and breadth, we are equally widely present in the international market as well. We have eight operating subsidiaries, you know, and 15 regional offices that we have.
Almost 130 people working on ground for us across geographies and exporting, which are helping us in exporting the products to more than 100 countries across the globe. So as you can see, right from America to Africa to South America, to Middle East, Europe, UK, Asia, we are widely present across geographies, and the material is either sold or redistributed across. And all these sales happens predominantly in our own brand. You know, we don't do large part of white labeling. So mostly we have built those distributions and, you know, globally as well, wherein we are selling under Greenlam's brand and people know the brand, the product is established, the market opportunity is pretty large.
That way, you know, as exports have been almost 50% of our laminate business over the last so many years, I think that market also remains very important and strategically important for us, for our growth. Just to give you a summary on the market sizing, you know, what we estimate. Again, no numbers here in terms of any reports and all, but largely from our own estimates, we say that the domestic market of laminate is roughly 12,000-odd INR crores, with INR 3,000 crores exports happening from India and INR 9,000 crores is the domestic consumption. Out of this INR 9,000, again, we kind of, we believe that INR 3,000 is the unorganized segment and INR 6,000 is the organized segment to which we are a part of.
In terms of the market share, if you look at it, 15% is largely the, our share in the domestic organized market, and, 25% is the exports from India happening. So we're largely the largest exporter and holding almost 25%, 30% of the market share for the exports happening from India. I think more than this is the, opportunity, which is on the international scale. Internationally, we estimate that the laminate market is roughly $8 billion. That is poised to grow to roughly $10 billion-$11 billion as we move ahead.
That market presents a large opportunity wherein we have invested in for last so many years in terms of building the infrastructure that can so that the leverage can be taken in in order to exploit those markets, make more reach deeper and kind of address or kind of you know make more meaningful inroads in each of those markets as we grow. So roughly what we export as of now is $115 million, is the international revenue that we derive from the laminate international markets. So these figures are mostly on the March side. As of 31st March, we haven't updated as on September.
So last five years, summary of the financial numbers, you know, how we have grown consistently over the years since 2019 to 2023, except for the COVID year, where the degrowth was, which I believe was there for across the industry. But apart from that, if you look at it, the margins have been quite stable, except for, I think, 2022, where we saw a dip on account of raw material fluctuations that we had. It's quite a significant raw material fluctuation, actually. And if you look at the ROCE, again, these ROCE have been computed without taking into account the capital that is deployed for the projects that we have undertaken in last 18, 19 months. So except for that project capital employed, the ROCE has been pretty healthy across a 17%-18% band.
Return on equity also, we raised equity last year in FY 2022-2023, and hence you find that the base is higher in terms of the equity. Hence, you know, the ROE numbers looks to be a little subdued as of now. But as this capital gets on to... You know, we sweat this capital more by way of manufacturing. We believe that, you know, our numbers and the ratios are, can significantly improve from this, from here on. So, coming to the fact that, you know, whatever we have invested or we are investing, you know, how the prospects look like and what is the address, or the market that we're looking at. Just to give you a glimpse that, you know, we have been a surface solution provider.
We are now looking to become an integrated player in the wood panel industry, where we provide the substrate as well. So plywood is already there, particle board is, shall come in some time. So with this, you know, the building blocks of the wood panel, which is your plywood, MDF, particle board, laminates. So all these, you know, categories where the entire wood panel industry stands, we want to be a meaningful player in terms of the substrate as well as the, surface solutions. And become a, you know, a mark of respect and a mark of recall, where Greenlam becomes the, a flagship recall brand across segments and across categories that we operate at. So again, from a domestic addressable market, you know, earlier, if you look at it, our opportunity was only laminates and veneers, roughly INR 14,000 crore, kind of addressable market.
Which now by the addition of plywood, you know, stands at roughly about 44,000. Plywood, we believe, continues to be the largest market size as of now, while the MDF and particleboard is also growing. But I think plywood, since being an age-old product, has been the category leader, till now. But, and as we see that, you know, the more evolvement of online furniture or more organized carpentry goes on, you would see that, you know, the share of the other substrate product will also rise. And with the experience in the decorative space that we have, I think we have a, we are very well poised to take on this opportunity and grow as we move ahead.
Once the particleboard also comes on stream, I think the addressable market will be roughly about INR 49,000-INR 50,000 crore, which was roughly INR 14,000 crore. Now you can look at the kind of opportunity we are looking at it and the kind of the depth in the business that we have, and you know, to the ability to address these market opportunities in a meaningful manner that will help the company to grow forward. You know, what we are doing with our earnings, I mean, where the earnings are deployed, how we are looking at it. If you remember, in December 2021, we undertook one of the largest investment cycle of our history, with almost INR 1,200 crore of CapEx being deployed, which will kind of double up the gross block that we have as of now.
And these, these investments are poised to really, you know, provide a future of the growth in the space that we operate. So that's the largest investment that we have done as of now, you know, which will broad base our revenues, move from the laminates, move from the surface to the particleboard, to plywood, which is our substrate products. You know, extending beyond two locations now to five, and entered the Western India and the Southern India also in the process.
These manufacturing units being strategically located across country helps you to kind of service the entire nation across geographies, and not even the domestic space, but also on the international front, where the proximity to port will help you in terms of servicing the customers and, you know, catch up on the international market opportunity that you have. So, you know, why we are optimistic and, you know, what makes us so confident about, you know, these investment, these cycle, these large growth phase that we have? It is largely, you know, the India story seems to be, you know, poised for a multi-year expansion. We believe that this is going to go for a while. The manufacturing across segments has just started. We're seeing CapEx cycles across.
I think this will derive some, some sort of, demand there. Again, the demand for residential and the commercial space has risen with, you know, the residences, houses, or the commercial applications, which is your hospitality, education, IT, healthcare, et cetera. So we are seeing a surge, you know, the real estate, that way. Post-GST, I think there's a move towards the more the organized sector. You know, people are moving or liking the brands or, more the organized sector. There are higher compliances issues which are making life difficult for the unorganized segment. And that, you know, creates, largely creates a way for the organized companies to grow higher. You know, particleboard sector, is, kind of an inflection point, we believe.
We saw what happened to MDF about a decade back when, you know, MDF was started. We believe that with the online furnishing... Oh, sorry, furniture market, more organized carpentry, more mechanized carpentry happening, I think even the particleboard is at that same similar kind of a inflection point and will, you know, grow as the category expands, meaningful player comes in, and the offering becomes more qualitative rather than, you know, being quantitative as of now. So Indian consumers are also recognizing brands and are willing to pay, you know, price for a quality product. They recognize, they understand that, you know, branded players, large players offer quality, and price points can be a, you know, a secondary matter for them.
You know, they also want that, you know, as there should be a single shop where you can have all the products which are made available. So that kind of things helps you in terms of leveraging your product portfolios. You know, so yeah, so that's on the domestic front that we have. On the international markets, again, you know, international opportunity is very, very large. You know, we have been present in the international market since 2005. We had made meaningful infrastructure, people and, you know, play there. And that kind of leverages us in terms of, making a meaningful, revenue from the international markets. As you see, almost 50% of the laminate comes from international market laminate business.
That market is something which is very wide in terms of its size. However, you know, that opportunity is yet to be caught up in—for us, you know, for players like us, where we, you know, exploit those markets more, make our reach more efficient, more deepened, and kind of expand geographies and all. And also, India, you know, where as a manufacturing hub, has been recognized as a large quality laminate exporter, wherein Indian players are more respected. They are more predominantly the first recall or an option with the international players or a substitute for the international markets. The cost of production in the international market is a little unfair. They are finding it difficult to sustain.
We have seen a lot of geopolitical issues around. We've seen inflationary issues in the large economies, which makes a dent on the local manufacturing. Again, giving a flip to players like us to make more meaningful inroads. Larger size of laminate that we've introduced, again, that's a category we have been unable to service earlier. But now with that 6x 14 size and the combinations therein, I think we are poised to reach out to a large segment of customers which were missing earlier. And with the two plants located, one in west, close to the western ports and one in the southern ports, you know, the Naidupeta is very close, about 1,700 kilometers from Chennai or from Kattupalli ports and all.
That makes your lead time very, very short, you know, quicker turnaround time, faster servicing, and the easy access to shipping out your products across. And also, you know, as I've already said as well, we are equally well certified in terms of the quality and the certifications as any other European or an American player would be. So on the investment side, again, what Greenlam has achieved in last eight years since the demerger, we're kind of looking to replicate that in a much shorter time now. We've charted out a five year growth strategy in 2021. We are on that stream and kind of achieving that in time. We'll position ourselves as an integrated surface and a solution— and surface as in a, and sorry, a surface and a solution provider.
I think the brand that comes in will be a much more respected brand that, that will command a premium in the markets. So where we were present were only laminates, floors and the veneers. Now, with the investments, we would have particleboard and the plywood also coming up. So plywood has already started. Particleboard will again be there by the next year. So coming on to the business update on the laminate front, the Prantij plant that we acquired in June 2022, with a capacity of 3.4 million sheets, was upgraded to 5.4 million sheets in May 2023. That plant has been turned around in a record time and now operating almost at 100% capacity utilization.
Again, this plant being near to the western port, also opens up our opportunities for exports from that plant. This has strengthened, you know, the company's ability to service products and segments which were not there earlier. So we were not on the commodity side, so we can have a large, meaningful play on the commodity side as well. However, you know, having said that, this plant not only manufactures commodity laminates, but also on the mid and the premium side also. So practically, we are not differentiating among the plants that what is being manufactured at what place. Gradually, and over the time, all these plants kind of manufacture as per the need of the hour and as per the product that is required.
On the plywood, again, which is in Tindivanam, Tamil Nadu, this is the single largest location plywood unit with a capacity of almost 18.9 million square meters per annum. Sorry. My apologies. This is, you know, commenced operation in June 2023 now, and the brand name under which the plywood has been launched is Mikasa Ply. We're again in the mid to the premium segment. You can also see the plywood samples outside in the back of the hall. So again, this belt again, this plant again is being near to the agroforestry belt. So the, you know, since plywood requires a lot of wood or, agroforestry wood, that is being serviced from your Tamil Nadu, Andhra and Karnataka belt, where you get the agroforestry wood, and then convert that to a plywood.
So that, you know, kind of helps us in achieving the raw material mileage also. This plant is closer to those belts and all. And, you know, the southern market is the largest market for any product, we believe, in the wood panel space, including plywood. Even for laminate also, the largest market for us is the southern market only. And we believe, it is one of the more faster adopting market for mechanized furnishing, furniture market, for, you know, more organized carpentry, which helps you in terms of positioning yourself as a meaningful player in those markets.
Just one thing to note that, you know, the plywood that we produce is 100% calibrated, which is a must and an essential for-- and which gives you a better surface finish, which is a very, you know, must for any kind of mechanized manufacturing that you do. And this product has been very well received by the channel partners. That's the feedback from our end, I think we would love to hear any channel checks from your end as well. On the laminate side, the... So this is the fourth laminate plant that we have added in Naidupeta, which has a capacity of 3.5 million sheets and boards. Why we say boards? Because we are making a larger size laminates also here, which is 6x 14.
This, the investment that was done till the time of the commercial production was INR 238 crore odd. You know, with this, manufacturing facility coming up again near to port, kind of servicing, you know, helping us in servicing the customer, higher churn of inventory, faster lower lead times, both in imports as well as exports, and a quicker inventory churn. So we believe that this will play a very vital role in, again, expanding the international footprints and in, and servicing the international market, as well as, you know, servicing the domestic markets from this plant. So we have now, from the north plant, you know, we can strategically look at, service the northern part. The southern plant can help in servicing the southern, western being the, from the Prantij.
So I think it's a healthy mix in terms of the manufacturing presence that we have. One more thing to note here is that, you know, both Prantij plant and Naidupeta plant has been built with a vision to keep in mind that both these units can take multiple rounds of brownfield expansion. We have additional space in both of these units. As you're aware, that both Nalagarh and Behror, we right now cannot do any further expansions because of space constraints. Howsoever said so, the Naidupeta and the Prantij plants has, you know, space, which can undertake multiple rounds of brownfield expansion as we move ahead.
And the capital outlay that will be required will be very low in terms of your CapEx plans, which will help you in eventually, you know, looking at a better returns in the longer run. As we have seen in Nalagarh, we started with 3 press, we now have 6 press. We've done a brownfield expansions in that unit. Similarly, you know, we can do in Naidupeta also and in Prantij also. So that way, you know, the future needs of the laminate capacity has been taken care of, and with the minimal capital outlay, we can add capacities in a quicker time, which can help us in expanding more. So on the particle board side, you know, this plant is right now under construction.
Right now we have a melamine faced board unit in Behror, wherein we only do a lamination, as I said earlier. But with the particle board production facility coming up in Andhra Pradesh, we will be able to leverage and provide a higher value proposition to the consumers, especially the OEM segment, the organized, carpentry and the mechanized furniture fabricators. Wherein largely, you know, at the ranges that we can offer, the color, the decors, being a large laminate player, will be significantly, value additive. And we hope and we are very confident that with this investment, you know, So with this investment, we'll be able to leverage the particle board, as a product category. The capacity that we are putting up is roughly 231,000 CBM per year.
And this will be a state-of-the-art European technology that way, and a continuous press line that we'll put up in Naidupeta, which can be you know an equivalent to any international particle board player that you might see. So again, particle board being a you know agroforestry product, is made out of agroforestry wood. This plant, again, being based in Andhra Pradesh, is closer to the agroforestry belt of Andhra, Tamil Nadu and Karnataka, which helps you in kind of leveraging the raw material you know from these belts. Which is very important as the wood is the major consumed RM in the particle board. Further, we would also you know looking at taking plantation activities in the nearby region, which can help generate sustainable RM sourcing as we move ahead.
So again, on coming to the demand drivers, you know, these are largely where the change in the urbanization that is happening, the rapid, you know, modernization, demographic dividend that is there. We believe these demand drivers, you know, kind of takes you forward in terms of, you know, generating the demand for housing, which in turn, turns around, you know, demand for the products of our category, and the commercial spaces as well. You know, higher demand in construction and hospitality, education, healthcare, IT offices, you know, so these all are related areas wherein the products, our products, including, you know, laminates, veneers, floor, door, particle board or plywood, can be effectively used.
Again, government is also looking to push some furniture parks in the certain state, which can, you know, be impetus to leverage more on the wood panel industry. And again, there's a significant export opportunities in the export market, is a fairly large market where it is yet to be exploited and, you know, you have larger, meaningful inroads to be made in those areas. So in the end, I think what we started in 2021 is guiding us to move ahead. And, you know, we have embarked on a journey which we call as Next Orbit, which will make us larger in terms of our product offerings, in terms of our portfolio, you know, more profitable, more sustainable growth for more decades to come.
You know, that's where the foundation of Greenlam, which was laid three decades ago and which is being reinvented now to, you know, give you a meaningful growth for the future. I think, with this, we start with the financial numbers, and I'll hand over to Ashok Sir to take you through the financial numbers.
Thank you, Sumarth. Good evening, friends. I'll take you through the financial statement for the quarter and for the half year. So in this quarter, for the first time, we have crossed INR 600 crore of sales in a quarter. So on a year-on-year basis, our revenue has increased by 16.5%. On a quarter-on-quarter basis, it is increased by around 17%. On a half-year basis, the growth was 13% and it stood at INR 1,118 crore. On EBITDA front, we could able to grow our EBITDA by around 41% on year-on-year basis, and by 17% on quarter-on-quarter basis. On a half-yearly basis, EBITDA grew by around 35%. Our PAT was higher by around 35% on year-on-year, and around 22% on quarter-on-quarter basis.
On a half-yearly basis, PAT has grown by 33%. A glimpse about the balance sheet, which is borrowing has gone up since we are investing into the new project. So I'll move on to the segment, laminate and allied segment, which is our biggest segment. Here, our revenue was gone up by 13% on year-on-year basis, and 12.5% on quarter-on-quarter basis. And on a half-yearly basis, it has gone up by 11%. Gross margin was up by 730 basis points on year-on-year, and it is down by 40 basis points on quarter-on-quarter. EBITDA for the quarter stood at INR 87 crore, which is around 52% higher than the last quarter last year same quarter, and on quarter-on-quarter, it is up by 25%.
EBITDA margin stood at 16.4% in this quarter, as compared to 12.1% in quarter two last year, a growth of 400 and 30 basis point, and on a quarter-on-quarter basis, it has grown up by 100 and 60 basis point. Capital employed in this quarter has gone up to INR 778 crores, since we the, our Naidupeta laminate plant has come on the stream on twenty-ninth of September, so there is only two days of commercial production which has started, so there is no sales or revenue or profit which has been added in this, but the capital employed has gone up. This is in terms of quantitative details. So we are at 94% of capacity utilization. Our production was around five million sheets, which is highest so far.
So this capacity utilization in this, since the Naidupeta unit has come for the two days only, so we have a capacity utilization we have calculated without that. Sales for the quarter was INR 4.93 million, at an average utilization of 1,034, in comparison to 1,059 last year, same quarter. In comparison to quarter one, the average utilization has gone down by around 4.8%. I'll move on to another segment, veneer and allied segment, which consists of decorative veneer, Mikasa doors, and Mikasa floors. In this, the net revenue stood at INR 57 crore, a growth of 23% over last year, same quarter, and around 35% on a quarter-on-quarter basis. On a half yearly basis, the growth is stood at 15%.
The gross margin has also gone up from 37.4% last year, same quarter, to around 43%, and in comparison to quarter one, it stood at nearly at the similar level. EBITDA loss has come down to INR 1.4 crore in comparison to INR 3.2 crore last year, same quarter, and from INR 1.6 crore in the quarter one. At the half yearly level also, the loss has come down to INR 2.9 crore, as compared to INR 5.6 crore last year. Capital employed has also come down from INR 193 crore last year to INR 180 crore this year. This is in terms of decorative veneers quantitative details, wherein the production has gone up by around five point nine percent in comparison to last year, and 58% in comparison to quarter one.
Sales for the quarter was 0.39 million square meter, which is similar to last year. However, from the quarter one, it has gone up by around 43%. Moving on to the newest segment, plywood and allied segment, which practically this was the first quarter in which the full production was available. So we are in the process of ramping up the production as well as the revenue in this segment. For this quarter, our revenue was INR 15 crore, and practically, this is the revenue for the H1. Gross margin was around 40%-41%, and there was a EBITDA loss of INR 10 crore, since this was the first quarter, so the initial expense of sales promotion, as well as the entire segment, has to ramp up in terms of that.
Capital employed in this segment is INR 175 crore, and the capacity utilization for this quarter was 16%, with an average realization of around INR 239 per square meter. In terms of operating parameter, which is net working capital, this quarter, our net working capital days was 60 days, in comparison to 69 days in the quarter two last year, and 72 days in the quarter one of this year. On a half yearly basis, our net working capital days has come down from 72 days to 64 days. So with this, even the, in the increase of revenue, we are able to manage our working capital with a lesser amount of nearly at the similar level of working capital.
... in terms of debt position, which has gone up significantly in comparison to last H1, from INR 75 crore net debt to around INR 670 crore net debt. But this is predominantly on account of, primarily on account of investment, which we are doing into the Naidupeta project. Return ratio in terms of ROCE and ROE, the capital employed, which you can see 1,380, which is minus the Naidupeta particle board unit. We have added the plywood, plywood capital employed, as well as the capital employed on account of, laminate, Naidupeta laminate also unit into this. With this, the ROCE comes to 18% for this quarter, as compared to 16% last quarter, and for the half year, it is 16.4%, as compared to 15.3% last year.
Return on equity stood at 15% on the expanded capital after we raised the capital in the last year, INR 195 crore. This is what all from the financial side, from our side. Now, I would like to open the house for the Q&A. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Now we will start question and answer session. Anyone willing to ask a question can please raise their hand and mention the name and their company name before asking the question.
Hi, I'm Mihir from Ambit Asset Management. So my first question is: we've seen some upturn in CapEx costs in almost all your projects, all your three projects, which we've seen anywhere from the tune of 20%-30%. So what's driven that? And how do you look at incremental return on capital employed on your incremental gross block because of that? So has the capacity and your revenue projections still remain the same, or how do you look at it?
So I'll take that question. Can you hear me? Am I audible? Yeah. So, one is, on the... If you see, if you go one by one, in laminates project, we are right now at about 94% utilization without the Andhra Pradesh factory, which just started end of September. And if you add the Andhra Pradesh capacity, we are hoping that in the next six to nine months, we'll again come to a 95, you know, slightly shy of 100% utilization. So we are building additional space at the Naidupeta plant in terms of physical space, and also building additional utilities or higher capacity of utilities like the resin plant, boilers, you know, storage space. So our guess is maybe, in not so far future, we'll have to add some more capacity of laminates.
So we're kind of getting ready, you know, in a way for that. So that's added to the, you know, incremental capital expenditure. So, so when we put the next line of, presses or next lines of presses in the Andhra Pradesh plant, the incremental CapEx will be, you know, not so high, it will be a smaller CapEx. We have demonstrated that in the past also in both Behror factory, Rajasthan and Himachal. So that's on the laminate story. On the particle boards, we had started with a lamination line and, and the main, production line of particle boards.
We've added certain features in particle boards, you know, with different kind of densities, some different dimensions of particle boards, doing some value-added categories in particle boards, which, you know, have been very successful in, Europe, which is with texture products, with larger widths. So that's added to some additional capital expenditure in particle boards. And there, too, you know, we have space in Andhra Pradesh plant to add one more board line and one more lamination line. So I think it's a mix of, capability building, some capacities getting altered, and certain other infrastructure costs getting added, like earlier we had planned for a 33 kV line, and now we're going for a 132 kV line. So some infrastructure is being expanded. Considering the, you know, positive future, we think about the business and the plant.
If you go for the plywood factory, again, there has been some capability building in terms of some process in improving the quality of plywood. When you cut the plywood, all the layers of veneer will look in a uniform color, and you can probably see that, which today, no other branded player has, you know, in the market. And there is some more additional infrastructure being built in terms of housing, et cetera, in the plant location. As far as the revenue potential, the justification of return ratios, we don't think that's going to get altered in any manner.
I just ask in an altered manner, so your particle board CapEx has kind of gone up. Would you still envisage when next asset turns on your incremental CapEx, or it will still be only an INR 600 crore incremental revenue?
So-
Because you said that you added value-added products, so is there a revision in that guidance?
So, particle boards, with the capacity we're installing and the value mix, the value mix, you know, return in terms of getting the right percentage of the value mix, products might take some time, but with the kind of capacity we are putting in, we can expect on a near full capacity, INR 700 crore-INR 750 crore of, you know, revenue. Because particle boards, about 80%-90% particle boards is sold as laminated boards and not as bare boards. So I think, I hope that answers your question.
Thank you.
... Hello. Congratulations on great set of numbers. Just to follow up on the last question, so what sort of return ratios, you know, you're looking at now particle board, whether the margin which you are saying would be like 20%-25%, will it also increase because of change in dimension? And third year would be the right way to look at the ramp-up plant of particle board?
So 25% EBITDA margin, we think is sustainable. If the value mix contribution expands, it can inch up also. And I think third year should be a fair expectation for the bottom line to, you know, ramp up. I think that's a fair expectation.
Okay. So what is your sense on the import of particle board? How big it is?
I don't have that data with me. If you have that data with you.
So the last what we have seen, what it was in the range of around INR 300 crore for the period. Exactly, we need to see the. Well, the situation keep changing. One thing which you need to understand in this, in the particle board, the most of the import, what happens, is happen for the bare board. In terms of the board, which is most of like a commodity and like. And our intention is to sell more and more the prelam board than the bare board in terms of that. Where the competition is not from the imported, it is in terms of you need to improve, you need to penetrate, we need to penetrate in terms of deeper into the consumer segment, kind of a thing, in terms of the.
It is not a like-to-like comparison, because anybody who will import the particle board, ultimately this need to be pre-laminate and get sold or consumed into the market.
Got it. Good to hear that, you know, the Prantij plant is operating at optimum utilization. So earlier, you have guided that the margin from this plant would be less versus your normal margin, but in your number, we can't see any impact. So whether the plant is performing better than your expectation?
So, you could say that partially, I think we've done better than we, you know, communicated, but that doesn't happen always. Certain product mix has also got altered in that time. We also enhanced the capacity, as you are aware, so even production has, you know, went up there. Yeah.
Okay. Understood. Thank you. Lastly, I forgot to say my name. I'm Keshav Lahoti from HDFC Securities.
Sir, why the particle board plant is coming in South? Why not in other location? Because as you rightly said that there is a lot of import of the particle board, the chipboard, if you call it, at the South ports. And so why is that? And secondly, on the plantations. So first answer this, then I will go ahead.
Can you hear me?
On the plantation side, like you mentioned that you'll be doing the plantations as well, taking over big.
Right.
So on that.
So, I think we try to explain this in the next orbit presentation. Multiple reasons why the plants first coming up in South India. Eventually, to serve the entire country, one plant may not be enough at some point, but initially it's coming up in South India, of the first factory is coming South India, considering several factors. Availability of raw material being, you know, one of the most important factors. So Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu and Karnataka have meaningful agroforestry plantations, which can be used for particle board production. Particle boards can also be produced out of waste wood, firewood, you know, chips of various wood species. You know, you don't need only one species to produce a particle board, unlike maybe an MDF. You can mix wood, and you can use that.
So, reasonable availability of raw materials is there. South India constitutes about 45%-50% market consumption of particle boards, considering the number of furniture plants, you know, making office workstations, cabinets for the IT offices, shop fit out, furniture plants, kitchens. So there's a good consumption, you know. Maximum consumption is in that region. So I think raw material availability and consumption of boards, I think these were the two large factors. Besides the fact that we wanted to put up a plant where from one location you can do compact laminates, you can do laminates, and you can do prelam particle boards. So most large projects of offices or even this convention center, people want compact laminates for bathroom partition.
They want laminates for paneling, like you see this here, and they need a same color matching, you know, of the office workstation. So the idea was to also combine a location where we could do all. So considering raw material, proximity to port, export potential, South India market, South being the largest market for laminates and for particle boards, that's how we kind of chose-
Export potential
... South India to be location.
Export potential, you said?
Export for laminates, because... And even chipboard, it depends. Certain countries, which don't have particle board manufacturing, because, countries in Middle East, Africa, where there is no wood available, they end up importing the particle boards from Europe or from Southeast Asia.... and we already export laminates to those markets, so there could be a, you know, potential of chipboard exports at some point.
Can we match Vanachai, which is-
Say again, please?
Can we match the, you know, Vanachai numbers, on-
Our model will be really more laminated particleboard and not plain boards, and we already have partners in those markets selling our laminates. So many partners in this region use our laminates and compacts, and they're importing prelam particleboards or prelam MDF from European companies. So it'll be a laminated model, not a plain board model.
Going forward, are we thinking to integrate ourselves with some kind of an OEM like Merino is doing with IKEA? In that maybe, you know, just to start with the cut boards, not the full furniture, would we be thinking on that side as well?
So our initial plan will be to sell laminated boards to furniture makers or to OEMs. We are not looking at integrating with them as yet, but we would be shipping them prelam particleboards. At some point, you can do components of particleboards, which could be cut workstation with edge banding, et cetera, which we are aware of, but at the moment, that's not our plan in the immediate future.
At the moment, it is not the plan.`
Not, not in the immediate future.
Just the domestic market we'll be focusing on?
Yeah, domestic market, pre-laminated particle boards.
Okay.
Value-added particleboards, that'll be the focus for us.
The gross margins and the EBITDA in that particle board, sir?
We said 20%-25% is the mathematics which is coming out now in terms of EBITDA margins. Gross margins also will be in the range of what we are achieving now, in the band of 50%, 45%, 48%, 50%, which will keep fluctuating versus the raw material costs and, you know, prices, et cetera.
Is the plant coming at the right time? Yes.
Well, I think there's never a right time for the plant. We need... India has no meaningful producer of particle boards. One of our competitors is also setting up a particle plant. And we also believe because of lack of good quality boards in particle boards, because of lack of a proper company promoting prelam particle boards, has given market share, you know, of pre-laminated MDF, because there's no good boards available in particle boards. So I think, considering the long-term opportunity, our presence in the segment, you know, really some timing, you can't time these things, you know, so, so we think it's okay.
And the Century number, if I look at the prelam particleboard, I think the current quarters are showing a 7%-8% EBIT kind of a margin. So the margins have been dropping. Maybe the quality of those particleboards are not that too good. So, but then we are guiding for a 20% kind of a 20%-25% range. So, do we see... Because I understand that the product category is at a very nascent stage.
Right.
So do we really see that kind of because of the raw material, if I talk both in the north and south, yes, there is some kind of a difference in the raw material at the, at-
I'm not sure Century's margins, I think-
No, I'm sure about that.
Yeah.
It is 7%-8%. EBITDA? Particleboard.
Yeah, just keep on fluctuating in terms of that, and that business is also not a small business for them also, as well as in comparison to us also. So I don't think it will be an, it, it will be an apple-to-apple comparison. And again, as we said, that our intention to sell more and more prelam board in terms of that, and that comes with our expertise into the paper-related business in terms of that. So I think there will... This is not an apple-to-apple comparison. And again, on a quarter-over-quarter basis, margin may differ in terms of that. What we believe on a longer term basis, the margin which we have projected, we will be able to achieve that margin in terms of that.
So I think it-
It also depends on the kind of plant one has, so I'm not so aware what the margins were recently. But, so ours is a continuous press, which, with our understanding, consumes less power, has better yield, the ability to produce various dimensions are higher, which means for the furniture maker, they can achieve better yields, lower wastage. I think this is a multi-light line and a Chinese line, as far as whatever I know, but I could be wrong. But that, that's the sense I have. So I think not completely comparable.
Yours is a German line, right?
It's a European, German line. That's right.
Okay. And, so coming to the raw material side, how is the south at the moment, you know? So there are two things, right? So in MDF versus the ply board, so ply board would be of seven odd years of a poplar or eucalyptus versus an MDF, four to five years. And in particleboard, is it two years, if I'm right?
So plywood, now, you can peel timber at even three to five year cycle. You know, usually, farmers don't wait for a seven year cycle, and you have newer spindle-less peeling machines, you know, which can peel lower girth logs or timber. As far as particleboard is concerned, like I said earlier, particleboard doesn't necessarily need only fresh timber. All the waste of wood, firewood, discarded fruit-bearing trees which complete their lifecycle, so all kind of woods can be used. So if you ask specifically for number of years, so even two years is good enough for particleboards to get the raw material.
Sir, what about the Melia dubia, which is that new thing which can catch up in India? Do you think so?
So Melia dubia is like a form of a pine species, which is low in density. So yes, if it is available, depends on the cost, and you can do it. In plywood, you can't use the complete Melia dubia because the density and the weight reduce. In particle boards and MDF, you could do it, so it depends on the cost and the availability. That's it from my side at the moment. I'll come back again, sir.
He's saying Century's margins were 21%-20% EBITDA. I don't know where you got your figure.
Particle.
Yeah, particle board we're saying. Yeah. Yes, particle board. Huh? 21 Check 21%.
Maybe we can-
I was surprised. Maybe you mixed with laminates and particle board maybe. Just, just check this, please, please. Yes, please.
My question is again on the particle board side. How are we looking to compete with the MDF side? Because MDF also, we are hearing not many capacity coming on.
So, like we were saying earlier, particle boards, about 80%-90% particle boards are sold as pre-laminated particle boards. We don't sell bare boards. So, particle board consumption or value of market in India is about INR 5,000 crore. The major usage of particle boards is office furniture, you know, trolleys, TV trolleys, study desks, panel inserts. A lot of government segment uses particle board, school furniture, shop fit outs. So I think particle board has a space, you know, in itself, so we'll probably take market share from unorganized companies, from imports. India still ends up importing a lot of furniture. Even workstations are being imported from Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, because of lack of good quality boards, lack of furniture making in India. So I think that's one story of the particle boards.
Pre-lam particle board is about 25%-30% lower priced than prelam MDF. Yeah. So, for most of the interior application, you know, where the product doesn't come in contact with water or high humidity, although you have a high humidity range also in particle boards. So prelam particle boards or particle boards are good enough, yeah? But the idea is not to desell MDF and sell particle boards. At the end, all the three panel products, plywood, MDF, particle boards, have their own market share on specific areas where, you know, consumers, fabricators, architects, designers want to use. So, if you want to create a direct comparison, we believe for most applications, prelam particle board will win versus prelam MDF.
Sir, at what utilization we will be generating EBITDA margin of 20%-25%?
So we said that this is the highest margin, which is at the optimum level of, let's say, above 90%.
Initially, in first two years, sir, what kind of margins we are looking to achieve or utilization we are looking to achieve?
The initial year, we have targeted a 50% utilization. At that, it breaks even at the EBITDA level, and then going forward, as and when we keep moving up, the EBITDA margin will keep increasing.
So on the plywood side, right now, we are EBITDA negative. So at what utilization we will be, let's say, PBT positive?
At around 45%-50%, we become the EBITDA positive, so you can say that around 60%-65%, we will be at PBT positive.
Plywood, as you know, probably we're just focusing on South India right now, and we're also building a brand in the network as we talk right now. So initial costs are higher than, you know, others.
On the brownfield side, since, you know, we will be utilizing the incremental capacity-
Right.
in the next six to nine months.
Right.
What kind of capacity addition we will be looking at that point of time, and what be the CapEx requirement?
Right. So, I'm assuming you're talking for laminates.
Exactly.
So laminates, typically, we add one line at each time, unless, you know, we have to add more lines. So each line, you can assume, will cost anything between INR 30-35 crores, you know, one line of laminates, which would be press, impregnator, plates, et cetera.
In terms of million sheets, how much it would be?
It depends on sheets and boards and realization. What the data we give out is, we say sheets or plain boards. If the capacity is to produce boards, then the number of units will be lower, but the value will be very similar.
How much more press line we can put over there?
In Andhra Pradesh, we have enough land we can add. You know, we have right now three lines we've installed, so we can add anything between another three to five lines. In Gujarat factory also, we have enough land. We can add anything between three to five lines there also.
Okay. So lastly, on the export side, since we have added maybe new product category 6x 14, so how much this will help to improve our export outlook in the coming years?
Right. So until now, we only had a dimension, a maximum dimension of 6x 12 ft. For certain applications and certain markets where people want full-height cubicles, they don't want, like, an opening, so they need a 6x 14 ft. So several markets where needed a full-height cubicle or several customers who needed both the dimensions, and we could only give one dimension, so this will help in expanding that, you know, category. I can't put exact value, you know, on how much 6x 14, we will, end up selling right now, but clearly, I think this will open up, several, customers, you know, and also add revenues to the customers we were exporting to.
Okay.
Just a word of a small correction that we don't inter-- It's not that within six to nine months, the entire capacity of laminate will be 100% used in terms of that. We have added the increased capacity in Prantij in the quarter one, and we have just now added this 3.5 million sheets of chipboard, which is three presses in terms of that. It will take some time in terms of getting utilized. It's not going to be, will be 100%. The 94%, the utilization which we have shown is without the, without the Naidupeta plant, so it is going to take time in terms of that, within six to nine months.
... it's not going to be utilized 100%. Probably, we believe that in the next year, we will be near to that, utilization kind of thing. Am I correct?
Yeah. On the debt part, lastly, so once the particle board, you know, comes on stream, and once it start utilizing, so what will be the, you know, debt repayment schedule over the next two, three years, since we have a net debt of INR 690 crore as of now?
So see, currently, we have a debt of INR 670 crores, as of this September, and we believe that by March, it should peak out around INR 800-INR 850 crores, 850 odd crores, ballpark, plus minus something. And from next year onwards, the repayment starts. So the repayments are also staggered and not built up, you know, equated with every year that happens. And I think, at the peak level, it goes to about INR 100-INR 120 crores for next, starting, I think, 2026 onwards, 2024, 2025, 2026 onwards for three years. And then it kind of tapers down as the large part of the portion of the debt repays off.
Initially, it will be INR 100 crore-INR 120 crore?
INR 120-odd crores.
FY 2025, FY 2026.
2026, 2027 .
2026, 2027. So what will be for FY 2025, 2026, the debt repayment schedule?
I'll check.
And in the 50% of our debt is there for the longer duration, the debt which is coming from the IFC as well as from the debt for the equipment. That is for the duration of around 10-12 years of repayment. So next year is close to around INR 60-odd crore payment is there. INR 60-odd crore payment is there. As of now, we are servicing around INR 25-odd crore repayment every year. Next year, in the FY 2025, it goes to around INR 60-odd crore.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you.
I request participants to mention your name and company name before asking the questions.
Yeah. Hi, sir, Udit Gajiwala from Yes Securities. Sir, firstly, you mentioned about the export opportunities in your presentation. Could you please classify what is the cost differential right now between you and the regional players in the countries that you are serving?
If you would compare like to like, us and the regional market leader or the brand leader, depending on the geography, I think we'll be lower by anything between 15%-20%.
Is this difference currently because of all the geopolitical or the cost difference will sustain over, you know, say, five to seven years kind of thing?
So, it's a function of several things. One is that, you know, their brands are stronger, they have local production, maybe better supply chain, better specification, more people on the ground, so they're able to command better pricing, although gradually, the gap is only reducing. So I think that's one large reason on the pricing. Second is many regional international companies, barring few, have become subscale because they've not added capacities over several years. And also, it's about third gen, fourth gen running businesses, not interested to run the business. PE investors have bought companies who want to again go and sell in five to seven years. So we believe, many large international companies, you know, which were large at one point, you know, have kind of become static or stagnant, and they have not added capacities.
You know, the cost of putting a factory internationally has also gone up. The ability to get approvals, you know, of norms of pollution has also increased. In the laminate business, you need a certain amount of manpower, despite, you know, optimum automation, so the manpower costs have also gone up. So across multiple factors, you know, the international companies or factories or plants haven't really expanded. And we think as we keep adding more resources, better inventory on ground through our own warehouses, through distribution partners, we're adding people to work with architects, IDs in several markets, the brand's getting stronger and pricing power is also improving.
Right. And just secondly, on your annual guidance, you had given a 25% growth guidance for this fiscal.
Right.
Any changes to that?
So we had said 20%-25%, so I think we should be somewhere in the vicinity as we see things now. Yeah. So right now, we're at 13%. We are at 13% now, yeah, so I think we should be somewhere 20± . Yeah, yeah.
And the same on, margins, sir, for this fiscal, if any number on the blended-
CFO gives the margins. I don't give the margins.
We have already indicated in the range of around 13%-14%. I think we will be in that band kind of a thing only.
Thank you, sir, and all the best.
Thanks.
They say in the wood segment that Mr. Ashok is the best CFO we have ever seen, and I won't risk my reputation again to challenge the 20% EBITDA number. So I think you guys are bang on that. There, EBIT is around 20% or so. My apologies on that, sir. So, coming to, sir, laminate segment, see, the global penetration on that surface of the laminate, which goes on the surface, is quite high compared to India. So do we see the INR 9,000-odd crore domestic market going towards INR 30,000-odd crore or maybe more in next 10 years? Is that a possibility, or can any other surface material can compete going forward?
So laminates is not only used on the surface, it's also used in partitions, as you saw in the presentation, bathroom partition, facade laminates. It's used in laboratory furniture, tops, which are also surface in a way, used as partition products in operation theaters, hospitals. So the applications of laminates has expanded over the last few years. That's one. Yes, in the future, the application of laminates or consumption can grow with people wanting to have better interiors, better aesthetics, you know, better performance. If you see this room, it's more laminates than paints. Sorry, Jalaj. Two walls with laminates, all, all laminates, by the way, but in the bathroom, it's my co- competition, so I know wrong. Yeah, so yes, it can expand. Internationally, the surfaces is not only laminates, it's also pre-laminated particleboard and pre-laminated MDF.
So if you look at IKEA furniture, for example, maybe 70%-80% is pre-laminated particleboard and pre-laminated MDF, where you put the paper on the boards itself. So the consumption of decorative paper or laminated surface is very high, but not all the surfacing material is only laminates. It's laminates and pre-laminated particleboards or pre-laminated MDF. Yeah. Can the pre-laminated particle board cannibalize our sales of laminates? Is it possible?
So our sense is both the segments will grow. In some applications, you know, pre-laminated particle board is good enough, and in some applications you want, you know, a laminate. Yeah. So where you need more physical properties of, you know, scratch resistance, cigarette burn, coffee stain, et cetera, et cetera, you use a HPL, where you just want a basic workstation, which is happening today also. You just use a pre-lam particle board.
And so going towards the gross margin, your competitor, Merino, is upwards of 50%, 52%, rather, and we are at 47%. When can we
I'll again risk that.
No, no, my team has the numbers. I think, gross margin-wise,
On the laminates.
You don't go lam on lam numbers.
Okay.
My guess is we are very, very similar, or we are slightly higher. That's the... Ashwin, was it?
Yeah. So for the lam, if you see, us also, gross margin will be in the range of—similar in the range of this, like, in this quarter or half year, it's around 53%, kind of a thing. It's difficult to get the Merino gross margins, since they have other products also, and they don't disclose the gross margin for the individual product. But what we believe, the gross margin will be in the similar range or, we ±1%-2%. We can be higher, or they can be. Unless we have the data, it's difficult to give the—compare the exact number, but we believe in the similar range.
But you're canvassing so much for competition. I must also say, all parameters, we are superior to the company you mentioned, working capital, ROC, you know, that's also important, right?
On the B2B business side as well, versus the competition?
We're talking only numbers. We're talking only numbers and financial performance.
No, so basically, the project division, I think there are only two major players in the project divisions.
Right.
you and the competition.
Correct.
How are we, you know, progressing towards in that project?
I think we could do better in the domestic space, if that's the question.
Okay. So can India become a furniture export market going forward?
Sorry, sir. Yeah.
Yeah. Can India become a furniture export market? Is that the... Because that will really take forward the particleboard consumption. So, or maybe just, you know, not bringing in the China. I just,
I don't have so much sense of the furniture export in particular, but my understanding is today, we are importing furniture. For any large IT projects, office projects, I believe India still ends up importing furniture. So I think first step should be to replace imports and come to domestic consumption. Plants around the port areas can become, you know, potential for exports of furniture. But for that, you need panel products, which is you need prelam particleboards and MDF and calibrated plywood, because that goes as input to the furniture industry to make the furniture products. So yes, can be, but my guess is, you know, there's still a large possibility of replacing imported furniture with domestically produced furniture.
Hi. Thank you very much for the presentation. One of the things we've seen other industry players and participants discuss fairly extens-
Can you please?
Can I just stand up?
Sure. Yeah, sure, sure, yeah.
Your name?
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm Ishaan from Ambit Capital. One of the things we've seen other industry players discuss fairly extensively in recent commentary is concerns around... flagging concerns around raw material prices-
Right.
pricing trends over the past few quarters, in particular.
Yeah.
Could you share a little bit more color on how you've been seeing this over the past few quarters, and sort of your view, kind of any color on trends going forward, too? Thanks.
In our business, in the laminates, veneer, flooring, door, by and large, raw material costs have been overall, you know, stable.
Yeah.
Some cost increases have happened, and then some items, RM costs have come down. Where we've seen raw material cost increase is in the plywood business.
Okay.
So over the last three to four months, we've seen significant increase in the local plantation timber costs.
Mm-hmm.
While the cost for face veneer and chemicals have been by and large, stable.
Right.
Yeah. Today, fortunately or unfortunate, part of the business is a bit smaller.
Yeah.
That's why you still see improvements in the gross margins of the business.
Going forward, do you have a sense, any, any sense of how you're thinking about, say, any protection or any sort of insulation against the timber prices in particular?
So timber prices are depending on the demand and supply-
Yeah.
-and it's quite cyclical, because these are all plantation timber from agroforestry sources. And what we've seen in the past also, although not under Greenlam Industries, but generally our experience has been, when there's less plantation at a certain point, so you have less crop coming to the market, and if demand and supply don't match, cost goes up. And when prices go up, you have a lot of plantation happening.
Right.
As we know from ground sources. There's a lot of plantation of Agroforestry which is happening across the country in southern India and northern India. And, most of the nurseries who sell these saplings are running out of stock. So we hope in the next maybe one or two years, there should be enough materials to come back to the industry, which again, you know, kind of depresses prices. And I think it's just like a cycle, it goes on, actually.
Sure.
Yeah.
Thank you. Good evening, sir. Sneha here from Nuvama. Just couple of questions. So, what are the plans now with the wooden flooring and the doors business? We haven't touched upon much today.
So that's a hard question, and obviously, we are running behind our, you know, own internal schedules of streamlining it. So numbers are improving, you know, revenues are improving, but it's not improving at the pace, you know, we want it to improve. Although our efforts are on with, you know, with sales teams getting slightly reorganized, bringing in more focus in the architects' IDs for specifications. So I think it's just a matter of some more time before this business kind of turns around completely.
So what I understand is this is a premium segment. Like, you know, nobody is doing as premium flooring as maybe you are doing, and which you also point out. With premium residential market doing so well, what are we missing out here?
So I'm sure we are missing out something which we don't know as yet. But with the general information we have on the premium homes is that a lot of construction and sales is happening now, and just at a macro level, yeah, we think many of these homes will come for interior fit outs, maybe over the next 12-24 months. I think that's at a macro level. But clearly, I think internally, you know, we still have to do better, and it's probably just a process of getting the product specified, going out and meeting those homeowners, architects, IDs. And our sales teams are also here, I'm sure they listen to this conversation. But I was talking about this to one of our regional managers on the subject.
So I think just a matter of time before we, you know, get this going. The product's very well accepted. The performance is good of the flooring business, especially. You know, we've also reduced certain capital, capital employment in the business. I think just some more time before this kind of turns around.
Sure. Secondly, today you mentioned a lot on the laminates phase, where you're adding capacity geographically, which you've not done in the past. You started with two plants and now, you know, going over.
Right.
What is generally the cost of transportation in this business? And, does geographically, you know, spreading out, what it could add to your margins, or is there any peer of yours who is so spread out that, you know, compared to you are?
So we don't know of any other peer of ours who's spread out meaningfully. So there are people who have, like, one presence or three names, so that's not geographical presence. Besides, freight cost, I think time to market is more important. I think this quicker turnaround, quicker supplies to market also adds to quicker demand. So I think cost is one factor. So clearly, you will end up reducing freight costs, but you cannot. Considering the product range, we can't say a plant north only services north for all categories, because different sizes of laminates are being produced at different factories. So I think supply to market, time to market, and being at the ports, you know, like, for Asia, from Andhra Pradesh factory, dispatch to arrival is, like, under ten days.
From our factories in Rajasthan to and Himachal, dispatch to Asia, you know, Southeast Asia would be, like, 25 days or 30 days, considering the rail transportation. So I think the time to market, quicker supply chain, I think brings tremendous value and only so much you can do in one particular plant. So I think, with improved sales, quicker service, I think we'll be able to command better premium, better pricing, improve our working capital, which will lead to, you know, margins and to improved return on capital employed.
Understood. But last one on the particle board side, since you mentioned you don't have the imports number handy at this point of time, how much imports are coming in? You yourself are importing a lot of material and, you know, pre-laminating and selling it.
No, no, we're not importing a lot of boards.
A few.
Our particle board business is very small, and we only buy locally. Sometimes we import, but it's very small. So we laminate particle boards and MDF for customers who want matching laminates, you know, where they want the same design paper on a laminate and a particle board or an MDF. It's a small part of our business. We buy it locally, mostly, and not from imports. Imports are very small part. What we import is decorative paper and veneer, wood, melamine, phenol, all that stuff.
Understood. Thanks a lot, sir, and all the best.
Hi, sir, this is Arun from ISEC. So, just a clarification, you mentioned that, you know, the particular plant CapEx is going up from INR 600 crore to roughly INR 775 crore, because of value add. But, earlier you used to guide one time CapEx, which was INR 600 crore, would be your revenues. Now, you're talking about INR 775 crore, INR 775 crore of revenues. Is it a miss? Because if your value add is going to go up because of the CapEx, shouldn't the revenues have gone up much higher?
So, Arun, it's not only the value add, and which we have said in our, in our communication to the stock exchange also. It is mix of everything. It includes some amount on account of value add, some amount. And these were announced, the project CapEx estimate was announced around two years before. So during this period, the cost of everything has gone up, which includes commodities and others. So it is mix of everything at that, in that moment of time when you announce the project, not the entire project is frozen on that day, zero day in terms of that. So it's a mix of everything. Cost of equipment or cost of the civil construction has gone up. Some changes which we have done in the specification, wherein instead of bigger size, bigger size equipment, we have taken some value add.
So it's a mix of all. So the cost of project CapEx has gone up, and by this, adding this value add, as well as the, as well as on the similar side, the, the sales price or realization has also gone up in terms of that. So keeping all this put together only, that what we have, what we have as of now, we have budgeted is around INR 700-INR 750 crore on the revenue side, which we believe. And eventually, that meets out is 1:1, wherein the cost of CapEx has also gone up and revenue is also going up.
Sir, and how much would be depreciation for this plant?
Depreciation for the plant, since this is the European plant and continuous process plant, so on average, for the equipment, it's around 6%-6.5%, and for the building, as per the norms, that gets depreciated over a period of six years. So we believe that total put together will be somewhere around INR 50 crore. Yeah, somewhere around INR 50 crore.
Sir, you know that at INR 50 crore of depreciation and assuming, let's say, INR 700-INR 750 odd for the revenues, you know, the ROCE is pretty, pretty low in the project, even at peak, you know, assuming everything goes our way.
So what is that ROC which you are, as per your-
So, assuming INR 7 crore turnover, right? And 22% margins, your EBITDA would be around INR 150 crore, minus depreciation of INR 50 crore. INR 100 crore would be your ballpark, EBIT. And INR 775 crore is your CapEx. Working capital would be at least INR 70 crore, right?
Uh-
So INR 850 odd crore of capital employed, and ballpark, let's say INR 120 crore of EBITDA. So less than 15% pre-tax ROC.
This is what you're talking on the first year,
No, third year, third year, assuming full revenues.
So third year, the capital employed does also keep coming down once you keep depreciating the assets.
So it would not be material, because I'm saying INR 50 crore, we're taking the number.
We are budgeted in the range of around 20% in terms of that. We believe that over a period of time, it will be. We'll be able to achieve that.
Sir, okay, maybe, I hope you're right, but if you do in numbers, sir, INR 850 crores and 20%, INR 170 crores should be your number.
So mathematically, what you're saying is right, but obviously we have more opportunity to improve the value mix, raw material cost, demand generation, capacity utilization can be certainly higher than the installed capacity. So these capacities are rated on a 330 days or 300 days. So there are multiple opportunities to, you know, keep, you know, pushing up, which you've done. If you do a mathematics of the laminate project also, you know, mathematically, it might come to something else, but right now, we are nearly 35%-40%. So, so that's where we are.
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Yeah.
Hi, sir, this is Rajesh Ravi here from HDFC Securities. My first question pertains to the laminate business. What is the outlook for the export business, given the geopolitical risk we are currently seeing around Israel and its impact on the European sales? And second question, could you give some guidance again for the full year in terms of laminates volume growth? In the plywood, what is the volume numbers or revenue number you're looking for second half? Yeah, and I'll come up with follow-up questions.
I will do the export thing. I'll leave Ashok with the numbers. So exports, yes, there is a geopolitical risk, as we all know. Our experience in the past has been that during such situations, and also because of, our own efforts in the market, we end up taking market share, you know, of the total, you know, exports. So if you see a first six months rate of India's exports, the update we have is that the export from India has actually come down and our market share has increased. And I think few of the top analysts here measure a lot of data, and I think they probably can ratify what I'm saying. So and, the Middle East region is an important region for us. We in fact also ship to Israel.
The feedback we have from Israel is that markets are operating, the factory is running at maybe a 50% utilization on the Israel market. And in general, I think, our base is still so small, you know, with larger size laminates, newer geographies we are opening up, our presence with the larger customers in Europe is still quite small versus the potential we have. So maybe at a macro level, there could be a challenge on the market opportunity or growth, et cetera. But at a very micro level, down to our business, I think there's still, enough, opportunity to grow our business. And if you look at H1, exports has grown how much? 15%. Huh? 12%.
12 point.
H1 exports for us has grown about 12% in value terms, right?
Yeah.
So that's on the export story. What was the next question?
The volume guidance for full year.
I think I'll leave that to Ashok Sharma. He'll give that around again.
Since we have started in this last quarter only, so we believe that our early intention is to do the 50% for the entire full year. We believe that going forward, every quarter, this utilization will keep on increasing, and we believe in the fourth quarter, we will be close to that 50% number, or 30%-40% capacity utilization in that fourth quarter.
So what's the volume for the half year, sir? Huh? So what's the volume for the half year?
So you said 50% utilization for the new plant in Q4, right?
We believe, we intend to do so.
Okay.
In that range.
Understood. Sir, plywood, what is the ramp-up guidance for this year?
... This you are talking about the plywood?
Plywood, plywood.th
This similar 40%-50%, this is what we said about the, for the plywood only. For the laminate, we believe that all since, the, any product can be produced in any of the plants, so there is no specific to any plant guidance in terms of that. Laminate, it will be for the entire business as a whole.
So, okay, I just missed it. What is the total volume number you're looking for the laminates then, for full year?
For the full year, that initial we are expecting in this overall will be somewhere around 15-odd% in kind of growth.
Value growth. Actually, that's value growth.
Yeah, yeah.
What Ashok is saying, 15% of value growth.
Value.
You were asking volume growth.
In terms-
H1 we've done, how much is it, Ashok?
Six, seven.
Volume growth?
Eleven.
We've done 11% volume growth in H1. So normally, we don't give out volume numbers and all that, but we believe to do value growth, some volume will also have to go up.
Okay, lastly, on the particle board, you know, the follow-up question: so when you said this capital employed will also shrink, so you're implying that INR 50 crore depreciation is what you will be bringing down your capital employed, and hence, in the third year, you're looking at a, you know, lower capital employed, and that INR 150 crore will give you 20% ROCE?
In that range, in that 15%-20% ROCE, which we are thinking at plant, when it's a full utilization, which we are projecting into third to fourth year, that time we believe that we will be in that range.
Okay, and given that this will be a largely a B2B business, and, you know, you would be largely, selling to big OEMs, furniture OEMs, any groundwork which has started, you know, or potential customer mapping which has been done given the amount of CapEx? And at least first year also, you would be looking at, say, INR 100 crore-INR 200 crore type of revenues from this factory.
Sure. Absolutely. Yes, obviously, yeah.
Okay, thank you.
These are not necessarily new customers. We also sell. So it's not only a B2B model, I don't know what you mean by when you say B2B. We'll have to create a channel. We'll have channel partners and dealers and wholesalers who stock and sell to smaller OEMs, aluminum fabricators, you know, furniture makers. There'll be large, as in our context in India, furniture makers who'll buy directly from us. We'll have to work with architects, designers to get their design sheet specified. And we already have presence with architectural firms, with the B2B or OEM market, where we sell laminates either directly or through our channel partners. So it's already something which is part of our ecosystem, yes. Specifically for prelam particleboards, we'll have to do some more work. That's already on, yeah.
Okay, one last question, if I can. Could you share some trends on the raw material side for the laminates? You know, how last two quarters, the raw material prices, kraft paper, decor paper, and these resin prices have moved on in the past six months?
Yeah. So the paper prices, the design paper prices, are more or less stable in terms of in the past two quarters. Kraft prices, since we procure normally the domestic kraft, it is somewhat, it goes up and come down, but we can say that primarily it's in the similar range kind of a thing. The chemical prices were towards the downwards bias in the past two quarters. It is in comparison to previous quarter, it has come down.
Thank you, sir. That's all from my end.
Thank you.
All the best.
As there are no further questions, I would like-
You've asked too many questions, taken all his time. Last one, huh? No mention of competition, however, huh?
No.
Okay.
Why MDF, why, why not MDF, plywood?
I don't have an answer for that. I think, like we said, particleboards, again, pre-laminated particleboard, it fits into our entire program of laminates, offering a solution to customers with matching laminates, matching compact laminates and bathroom partition, matching prelam particleboards of furniture. So we thought this is the first step for us to get into, and also it's not as crowded, at the moment at least, versus an MDF. So I think prelam particleboard was the natural extension, considering our laminated designs and our, you know, decorative paper offering solution to customers. That, that's the reason we moved for particleboards first.
I think I asked, why, why plywood? Why not...
Oh, I thought you were asked why not, why particle boards and why not MDF?
Why plywood?
Oh, why plywood? I thought, why plywood and why not MDF, or why plywood?
Yes.
No, why plywood and not MDF?
Why not MDF?
Yeah. So I think there are two different questions, you know, so one is why plywood. Plywood gets aligned to the residential home market, where people use laminates, veneer, you know, and a plywood, where carpenters do on-site carpentry. Several kitchens need calibrated plywood. They use our laminates. So I think that, servicing the channel, servicing the carpenters, contractors, kitchen OEMs, offering them the entire range from one company, was the reason, you know, to get into plywoods. Besides the fact that it's a large market opportunity, with just two national players and no meaningful third player, so we also sense an opportunity for us to get into plywoods. Yeah. And why not MDF is a different question, I think.
As there are no further questions, I now hand over the floor to the management for closing remarks, and, post that, everyone can join us for the high tea. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, friends. Thanks for taking out the time and hearing out patiently to us. Should you have any other question, you can reach out to us or our IR partner, SGA, for the further. Thank you.