Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the GTPL Hathway Q4 and FY 2023 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by Emkay Global Financial Services. We have with us today Mr. Anirudhsinh Jadeja, Promoter and Managing Director; Mr. Piyush Pankaj, Business Head, CATV and Chief Strategy Officer; and Mr. Anil Bothra, Chief Financial Officer. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes.
Should you need assistance during the conference, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Pulkit Chawla from Emkay Global Financial Services. Thank you, over to you, sir.
Thank you, Darwin. Good evening, everyone, welcome to the GTPL Hathway earnings call. I would like to welcome the management and thank them for this opportunity. Without any further delay, I shall now hand over the call to the management for their opening remarks. Over to you, gentlemen.
Thank you, Pulkit. Good evening, everyone. A warm welcome to everybody to the conference call of GTPL Hathway to discuss Q4 and annual FY 2023 financial performance. I'm glad to report yet another year of consistent growth in our broadband and digital cable TV business. GTPL to continue largest MSO in the country as well as in Gujarat and largest broadband player in Gujarat. The company has further strengthened its presence across all other markets, especially in southern state. I am pleased to inform you that the board has recommended a dividend of INR 4 per equity share for FY 2023.
Both our digital cable TV and broadband business continue to show healthy growth across India in terms of subscriber and ARPU. I will now hand over to the call Mr. Piyush Pankaj, who will take you through the business and financial performance of the company.
Thank you, Mr. Jadeja. Good evening, everyone. I am pleased to announce the business and financial performance of GTPL Hathway. Our Digital Cable TV subscriber base as on 31st March 2023 stands at 8.95 million. Paying subscribers stand at 8.20 million. On a Y-O-Y basis, the increase in active and paying subscribers is 550K and 400K respectively. In the broadband business, we have added 104K new subscribers, an increase of 11% on a Y-O-Y basis. Home pass subscribers stood at 5.30 million as on 31st March 2023, of which 75% are available for FTTx conversion.
The broadband ARPU for FY 2023 stood at INR 460, an increase of INR 10 on a Y-O-Y basis. The average data consumption per customer per month stood at 321 GB, a 25% increase Y-O-Y. On a consolidated level, excluding EPC contract in FY 2023, revenue grew by 12% Y-O-Y to INR 27,140 million. The Digital Cable TV subscription revenue stood at INR 11,005 million, up by 2% Y-O-Y. We saw a consistent growth in our broadband segment. Broadband revenue increased by 18% Y-O-Y and revenue stood at INR 4,826 million. This was driven by a healthy subscriber addition.
Consolidated EBITDA for FY 2023 stood at INR 5,163 million with a margin of 19%. PAT for FY 2023 stood at INR 1,145 million. We are a net debt-free company and our finance cost has reduced by 31% on Y-O-Y basis for FY 2023. For quarter four FY 2023, on a consolidated level, excluding EPC contracts, revenue grew by 13% Y-O-Y to INR 7,017 million. The digital cable TV subscription revenue stood at INR 2,753 million, up by 2% Y-O-Y. We saw a consistent growth in our broadband segment in quarter four FY 2023. Broadband revenue increased by 14% Y-O-Y and revenue stood at INR 1,246 million.
PAT for the quarter stood at INR -124 million. There was a drop in the PAT on account of the following reasons. An exceptional item of INR 189 million provided in quarter four FY 2023 with respect to the provision of certain identified old receivables on account of assessment of counterparty credit risk.
Second, increase in depreciation amortization of FY 2023 by INR 220 million on account of reassessment of useful life of select asset class and obsolescence of certain asset class due to technology upgradation. The standalone revenue excluding EPC for FY 2023, stood at INR 17,328 million, an increase of 14% Y-O-Y. EBITDA stood at INR 2,842 million with an EBITDA margin of 16.4%. PAT for FY 2023 stood at INR 725 million. This is all from my side. Thank you, everyone. We can now begin with the question and answer session.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Yash Sarda from Sushil Finance. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. My first question is, how is the response from the GTPL Genie+ which was launched in December? If you could give a number as to how many customers from our broadband, existing broadband customers have opted for the plan? Secondly, second question is, what is the anticipated increase in data consumption in the quarter which is coming or what you are seeing due to the IPL which is being streamed online?
Last question is, how many customers or what is the conversion which we are seeing happening from the cable TV subscribers to broadband due to OTT happening and online streaming of IPL? That's it. Thank you.
Thank you. We have launched GTPL Genie+ in end of December. The main responses have started coming from January month. Till date, we have seen that around 12,000 subscriber base has come into has taken these services in last three months. Out of that 12,000, we can say that around 8,000 is from the broadband side and around 4,000 is of the cable subscribers. The second question on the IPL, we have not seen any effect because of having free in JioCinema that it has affected is the, our subscription reduction or our subscriber reduction due to the IPL. The effect is almost nil on that side, I will say.
Third question was on Genie+ that how many subscribers have shifted from our broadband to cable or cable to broadband. The cross-selling is happening because Genie+ we have launched as a standalone product, that is not giving us GTPL Genie+ as a standalone product where either our broadband subscriber or our cable subscriber can take it as a standalone product, it's a B2C product. Because of Genie+ we are not seeing that the conversions and all.
Yes, we are hopeful that as we are going to launch the combined bundle services which we are going to do in quarter one, entertainment plus broadband together, entertainment includes OTT plus cable. That's we are going to look after. That, that will give us a good chance in the market.
Thank you. I just had 1 follow-up question. There was, you mentioned that there has been a blackout in the month of February for, I think six odd days. Could you just elaborate on that? The Star Sports, what I understand is not a part of the package which you currently offer. It is on a la carte, if I'm not wrong. How is it, how that is working out? Just two questions, follow-up. Thank you.
Basically the, it was not a blackout. It's what all three broadcasters effective date 18th of February to 23rd of February.
Okay. Is, just confirming, is Star Sports being offered as an a la carte or already bundled with.
No, it's a part of the bundle, which we are not offering any a la carte.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aniket from BMSPL. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. Am I audible?
Sir, you're not loud enough, so we are not able to hear you clearly. Your question...
Am I audible?
Yes, you are audible, sir. Go ahead.
Yeah. Good afternoon, and thank you for having me. My question was a bit longer term regarding the broadband business ARPU. With the effect of the all the OTT providers coming in such as Reliance and having their own, you know, units, what do you feel is going to happen to your ARPUs for the coming two to three years? I just wanted to get a broad picture.
ARPU. See, if you see, from last two years, our ARPU, which was at around INR 400, we have gone up to INR 460 in last two years' time. We are looking forward that we'll continue that journey, that INR 10, INR 15, INR 20 increase per annum. That is because we are converting everyone into the FTTx technology and pushing our subscriber to take the higher packages of 100 Mbps, 150 Mbps, 200 Mbps. That's the strategy on which we are working.
Yeah, if you ask me, I'm not increasing the rate of my packages, but I am moving my lower packages customer to higher packages customer, and that's why the benefit is coming in our ARPU. We look forward that we are going to continue that. That's the strategy. We are looking forward that, we'll continue to increase the ARPU as we are increasing from last two years.
All right. All right. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to ask a question, you may press star 1 on your touchtone phones at this time. We have the next question from the line of Karan Mehta from Nirzar Securities. Please go ahead.
Hello. Yeah.
Yes, Karan. You are audible.
Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. I just have a couple of questions. Firstly, we have seen an increase in pay channel costs on an annual basis. I just wanted to understand, is this of recurring nature? If so, what would be the percentage increase in pay channel cost per year for next two to three years? Also, what's the outlook on both of our businesses?
Hi, Karan. Karan, we always advise the analysts to look pay channel along with the marketing and placement revenues. If we do the net pay channel cost on that basis, pay channel expenses minus revenue, it's hardly you will see that there is a 2% increase in the pay channel, hardly INR 9-10 crores, which is there. If you see over the year, for the whole year, the subscription is contributing around INR 25-27 crores, and out of that, pay channel is just increasing INR 9-10 crores. That's the trend we are looking forward, that the pay channel will be on 2%, 3% increase, not more than that on the net basis over the years.
Okay. Okay. That was helpful. Sir, also, what's the incremental cost and depreciation cost per subscriber for both of our businesses? What's the replacement cycle for our fixed assets in both of our businesses?
Fixed asset, if we talk about, we are depreciating our HDBs in eight years' time and the routers at around 10 years' time. 8-10 years in the routers of the different make. That's the, that's adding on the depreciation side. When you talk about the replacements and all, yes, it takes 8-10 years for the replacing any assets because these are robust assets which are continuing. Still the boxes which we have deployed in 2011, 2012 is still continuing in our system. Same with the, if you talk about what routers we have put in 2016, 2017, which is still going robustly in our system.
Sir, the first question, the incremental cost and depreciation cost for both of our businesses? incremental cost for per subscriber for both of our businesses?
Per subscriber incremental costs, if you talk about, if I am adding one subscriber base and I am getting around INR 125 from that, on that if you talk about the, just the incremental operating cost, which is net of my direct cost, which is pay channel and all, which is coming to around INR 30, not more than that.
Okay. The cost is just INR 30 per subscriber. That is for CATV?
That is for the CATV.
Broadband?
Broadband also it is around, broadband is lesser because, the main cost there is going on in, into, two direct costs, which is the bandwidth cost and my customer acquisition cost, which is the highest, which is more of. There it is coming to around INR 25-30, extra operating cost, admin and operating cost.
Okay. What is the depreciation cost per subscriber?
Depreciation per subscriber, you can talk about, around, INR 90 in the cable side. In the broadband side, it is coming to around.
INR 50, INR 60.
INR 60-INR 70 in the broadband side.
Okay. sir, if I can squeeze in one more question. What's the acquisition cost per subscriber? sir, we had a discussion over the implementation of NTO 3.0. We expect that this may result in shutting down of some smaller LCOs and MSOs, which will in turn give us an opportunity to acquire these. I just wanted to understand what the acquisition cost per subscriber for these MSOs and LCOs?
The acquisition cost, I will just say that it depends on lot of things that in which market we are operating, what are the different aspects of those network technology-wise, where it is in the rural area or outskirts of city, whether it is in the main city, all those factors.
Basically, sir, which territories also, like up Hindi HSM market set or different acquisition price, south market is a different price, whether it is an area is Phase I, whether it is an area is Phase II, whether it is an area is Phase III or Phase IV. It depends on the territory-wise, there's a price differences there. Okay. Okay. If they can just, if you can give a broad range for our major market.
Majorly, If you see the overall our major market, like almost 60% to 65% is our HSM markets, majorly market. It's close to around 30% is like south market.
So if you-
Acquisition price depends on the network and all those things. Whether it is in the north, if a network is in there in Delhi and a network is in the Kanpur, or if it is network in the Gorakhpur, if it's a network in the Muzaffarpur, the rates are, acquisitions are going to be different. It's very difficult to give you 1 figure on that way because it depends on different factors, that's the way Karan, we can go offline on this, that how we come into the acquisitions and all those things and how we determine the prices on acquisitions.
Sure, sir. Thanks a lot for all these clarifications. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pawan Nahar, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hi. Hi, Pawan. You are not audible.
Sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah. Am I audible now?
Yeah, Pawan. Go ahead, please.
Thank you. I wanted to understand, we've done a CapEx of around INR 470 crores in FY 2023. What is the plan for 2024? Any particular number?
Yeah. CapEx, we did INR 468.5 crore in FY 2023. Out of that, broadband CapEx is around INR 225 crore. The rest is the CATV CapEx. We are saying throughout in the call that we are keeping around INR 450-500 crore, and we are looking forward in next three years, we are going to do INR 1,400 crore of investment. We are still sticking to that, depending upon the opportunity, we'll be keeping around INR 450-500 crore of CapEx, which is going to be 50% in each of the business.
So every year, INR 450 crore-INR 500 crore beginning FY 2023.
That's right. Next three years, INR 1,400 crore-INR 1,500 crore.
That is number one. Number two, now what I'm struggling to understand is your absolute EBITDA. I don't want to focus on depreciation because let's eliminate the, you know, let's, I mean, we could look at that as well. If EBITDA is like what it was in FY 2020, it's a sharp. We've done such a big investment, right? Our gross flow up or whatever, I mean, whichever way you look. In the last two years, we've spent about 800 crores, FY 2022 and FY 2023. Our absolute EBITDA, right, is down by almost 10%-15%.
9% around, yes.
Yeah. I'm unable to understand that till FY 2022, every dollar that you are investing was yielding good returns. Suddenly, in the last 12 months, particularly, there's just a collapse. I don't want to get into the detail of the CATV and cable. All I want is
Nai nahi.
Nai nahi.
Aise dekhiye ulta nahi hua hai. Jo aapki EBITDA down hui hai usme ek bada factor hai jo activation revenue we have lost around INR 30 crores. Yeh activation revenue jo tha woh deferred hai. That is a non-cash item. Cash basis पर आप देखिए तो हम वही हैं और हम grow हो रहे हैं जहाँ पर आप cash basis की बात कीजिएगा। because of that INR 130 crores we have gone out there. Second, this fourth quarter, yes, we have lost around INR 10 crores-INR 12 crores because of the blackout which we explain. उसके कारण एक INR 10 crores-INR 12 crores का हमें impact आया है जो we were expecting कि वो nahi aana chahiye tha but wo aaya hai which you will see that jump in the quarter one.
यदि वो factors आप हटाइएगा। Second, third आप देखिएगा कि एक EPC project हमारा चल रहा था which was contributing in EBITDA and revenue both side.
That was FY 2021, right? FY 2022 में तो कुछ नहीं है ना अंदाज।
FY 2022 में around INR 3-4 crores था हमारा.
हाँ, तो वो छोड़ देते हैं ना. वो तो rounding off ऐसे हो गया. मतलब INR 530 crore का, हाँ.
हाँ, one EPC project का था जो हमारा चलाया नहीं।
I just want to Mr. Gandhi just stay at this point 530 has become 465 or 470 round us. हमने INR 450 crore investment किया है। In fact a little more हम उतना ही और हर साल करेंगे next 2 years के लिए। अगर हम INR 100 invest करते हैं generally what is the kind of EBITDA or ROC और आप internally क्या, कैसे judge, मतलब कैसे evaluate करते हैं, क्या expect करते हैं आप?
Basically यह investment proportionately quarter in quarter pro format में होना चाहिए था। Last FY 2022-2023, quarter one और quarter two में पूरा investment नहीं हो पाया। वहां पर जब CapEx proportionately अगर आप quarter three और quarter four का CapEx अगर देखें तो major quarter CapEx 70% quarter three और quarter four में गया हुआ है जिसका दो ही quarter का हमें outcome मिला हुआ है। अगर आप इसको पूरे अगले साल में देखेंगे तो वह पूरे साल का outcome आएगा। Quarter one-
अभी तक तो negative है ना? EBITDA में तो outcome अभी तक negative है।
उसका outcome quarter one और quarter two में पूरे साल का मिलेगा. अगर आप subscription पर देखा जाए तो it's close to around 30 stand alone में अगर आप देखें तो it's close to around INR 30 crore है. Consolidated अगर आप देखेंगे तो it's close to around INR 22-23 crore है जो पूरे चारों quarter में that contribute around more than INR 50 crore.
Can I ask you in very simple terms like I wouldn't have all the details. आपको ज्यादा पता है। तो मान लीजिए इस साल अगर हमने INR 465 crore का EBITDA किया है FY 2023 में। What should we expect in FY 2024?
See, we are looking forward that जो हमारी growth pace थी till FY 2022 if you see we are doing the revenue growth of somewhere around 17%-18% on that basis overall and EBITDA growth was somewhere around 13%-14% every year. आप last 5 years का निकाल कर देखिएगा तो आपको data दिखेगा। That we are looking to continue in FY 2024.
More like 13%-14% EBITDA growth.
That's right.
13%-14% EBITDA growth. Okay, just a moment. I wanted to ask you, is there like so when you say you are going to spend INR 450-500 crore which is like acquiring other small cable TV operators or how you know, how, where is this money going to go outside of broadband CapEx?
You are talking on the broadband or CATV?
Outside of broadband, CATV.
You are talking about CATV. CATV you have to understand the market right now. You have to do two type of CapEx investment. One is to maintain your subscriber base and second is to gain new subscriber base. Maintain is because the churn rate which is going on in the industry which is around 15%-16%. If you talk about right now I'm at nine million, 15%-16% of 9 million which is like 1.4 million-1.5 million subscriber base which I have to gain just to maintain my subscriber base and my revenue. I have to invest much more to have a net subscriber base positive so that I can gain more revenues and more EBITDA.
That's the cycle on which every consumer you can say direct consumer activity is happening where the subscribers are. You talk about telecom, you talk about DTH, wherever it is there is a churn there. To maintain that churn, you have to make some CapEx additions. Plus you have to do more CapEx to bring more revenues and EBITDA. That cycle will continue over here also.
Understood. Basically what you are when we say churn 15% and we give the subscriber a set-top box and we incur other cost for his activation. If every year there is a churn of 15%, that means that I mean, it is a huge cost which is not recovered. We will keep having these surprise increase depreciation or write-offs.
No, we are recovering the boxes. We are redeploying some of the boxes. Yes, you are right. You can't recover the 100%. It depends that whatever we are recovering, whether it is useful or not. We are doing the repairing also, putting the boxes, refurbished box into the market also. Yes, that is not coming 100% that you recover around 50% or 55% boxes, and then you do that whatever repair or some refurbished you can do and put into the market, that goes back to 30% only.
It should depends on the work particularly retrieval costs we have. We are collecting INR 500 activation and box cost is INR 800. If let's say because of INR 300 it will go for recover and our INR 300 recovery cost, so we'll decide whether it is we want to recover or not.
Those factors work here because when you are doing the recovery, you have to do some recovery costs, whether going for that or whether you should go for the new boxes straightway, which is going to fetch you INR 400, INR 500 from the market. Whether you want to do, recover those boxes which is in the remote areas and all. All those factors work on that. Yes, because the stock is lesser in the market, and you have to do fresh CapEx on those.
The second thing.
Sorry. The second thing, Pawan, because some places there's a strategic decision because in earlier the NTO in DAS 1 and 2 implement in 2012 and 2014. Because of that time the technology was MPEG-2. It's a policy decisions company has already taken. We'll not further put MPEG-2 box. That box is a completely absolute market because we are completely. Right now the 95% business we migrated in MPEG-4 box.
Okay. This year there is no dividend and, we cannot do any buyback.
No, no. We have declared INR 4 as dividend. I think Mr. Jadeja has in his remarks.
It was interim or final?
It's a final one, INR 4.
Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that.
Subject to shareholder approvals and all, yeah, board has recommended for INR 4. 40%.
One more thing I wanted to ask you, Mr. Jadeja, is basically we are at 75% already the promoters between the two. The stock valuation seems pretty interesting, close to book value despite your five-year ROE being 16%. Maybe rightly so, maybe there are concerns. Like, is there any way we can do something about, you know, a proportionate buyback or something like that? I mean, actually, sorry, it won't help. Basically, I'm wondering what could the management do about the stock price? The numbers are not supporting, valuations are.
These are promoters call, strategic call, because as a company, we can't comment on these things. This has to be taken at the strategic level with the promoters and then to the board that what we should do. Can't comment on this subject, yes.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, to ask a question, you may please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for this opportunity. Sir, you mentioned about CapEx of INR 460 crore for FY 2S23, sir.
468.5. INR 468 crore.
Sir, out of this, entirely is this operational CapEx only, or how should one look at this spending? What goes into technological upgradation and what goes into capacity augmentation? If, if we look at CapEx, the format has to be into capacity augmentation that will lead to further revenue going ahead. How much is going towards the operational CapEx which is needed to maintain, to run the entire system. If you could give that split up.
Yeah. If I come to first on the broadband side, we did INR 225 crore of CapEx on that. If I talk about, we did around 550 K of home passes on that, which is the CapEx we have put around INR 22 crores just making into the home pass.
Cost
Plus, yeah. Plus, there is around INR 30 crore which we did in the technology side, technology enhancements in the back end and all. The rest has gone for the customer acquisition cost in the broadband side. Same in the cable. Well, I will say that as Anubhai is saying that we are going from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. Those side, the technology enhancement and side, we have did around INR 25 crore of CapEx on that side. Plus on the enhancement for our headend and technology side, we did around INR 20 crore of CapEx on that side. Rest has gone into the business side.
Sir, when we look at the CapEx part of companies, there, wherever companies spend invest, so additional revenue generate going ahead. That is the order of what CapEx is defined. In our case, Some CapEx goes towards the modernization, towards retaining of the client. When we are spending that money, what is the ballpark we work around? customer acquisition market share and grab. If you could give us the color on the same, how What are going to be the customer count going ahead for the money that we have spent and thereby, payback timeframe?
See, cable side ienia pa ham kar rahe hai to maintain our subscriber base and all because we are recovering some boxes, we are putting it into the market also. That is around, out of the total, that is around INR 50 crore-INR 60 crore, which is going into the maintaining the subscriber base and all. The rest is going in, increasing our subscriber base and plus the technology enhancements. As we go into the new market, we have to do some of the CapEx, network CapEx and all. That's, that's the way we are doing it in the cable side. In the broadband side, as you will see that the to maintain or you can say because the churn there is around 20%-22% in the broadband side.
There you have to do somewhere around INR 70-80 crores in maintaining the business and rest in enhancing the business. Plus making the home passes, plus doing the technological upgradation and all, which is going to give us generate more and more the subscriber base and the revenue.
When we look at the profile for both cable TV and broadband going ahead, it is going to be My basic understanding is that broadband is going to be the clean winner going ahead, and everything would be clubbed under that, whether it is television, networking. Internet would be the key. Going ahead, how do you What are you visualizing in terms of this cable TV business contribution? Since over the last three years, we have seen the revenue shifting towards broadband.
How likely is going to be the mix going ahead and the customer preference, with the laying of optic fiber cables and the internet penetration going ahead, how good the number would be there in terms of the split between the cable and the broadband mix? I think so broadband would be contributing to the bottom line also, in a significantly higher EBITDA number than what cable TV is.
Last six years you will see what the CapEx we did. Last six years I'm talking about, you will find that we did around 60%-63% around in the broadband side. Only 37% has gone into the cable side. Cable side, your CapEx has started increasing from last year when the churn has also increased and For maintaining our subscriber base around INR 50 crores-INR 60 crores more we have to spend on the cable side. That is the case. Yes, whatever the benefits are, you can say, the CapEx which we have put in the broadband side, and we made around jump of around 3.8x in the subscriber base in the broadband.
The pace is much higher than what we did in 2x in the cable side. Yes, broadband has gone up, and that is one of the reason that we wanted, not only dependent on the cable, which you are seeing that in the segment result and all. Broadband has also started contributing a significant part. The business is not only dependent on one business. That's the purpose that both the business do good and start contributing towards the whole consolidated results. That's happening and that's a good sign for us. Continuing business, if we talk about, we are in the... As a management and as an industry and all, we are seeing that cable is not going anywhere, that it's going to be there.
This is going to generate whatever cash we are generating and going to grow from here only. You see that, still there's non-TV households which is going to be there. The consolidation of whole cable industry is still open. Has 80 million subscriber base and only, all the organized player have just around 40 million right now, subscriber base in their fold. 45 million subscriber base is lying there, which is there. Yes, you can say that you have to combine the business, broadband plus entertainment plus OTT plus more services together.
We considered ourselves as a pipe, which we have the access to the home through that pipe, and we have to increase our services in such a way that in consolidated way, whatever need is there in the households, we can provide that.
We are looking forward that both business are going to do good in the future. Yes, we have to combine those businesses together, combine those offering, make it more lucrative for the customer, increase our services. Right now it is cable OTT plus broadband. Increase more of our services which we can provide to the households and start providing all type of or all type of needs, satisfy all type of needs of the customers.
Only a small point. In your opening remark also you mentioned about a percentage of conversion to FTTH. When that conversion is totally skewed towards the broadband part of the story only, the fiber to home part is you are referring to the broadband conversion only from cable to a broadband aspect. Is that understanding correct?
No, no, not cable to broadband. Earlier the technology was LAN, Metro Ethernet pura ham usko abhi GPON main migrate. Almost today 90% business is almost migrated to in a GPON technology. On home pass basis, if I talk about around 75% of our home passes already in the FTTx, and 25% is in the LAN which we are converting. Every year we are converting those. We are looking forward that we will become a 100% FTTx in coming years. It is from ambient technology, which was LAN technology to FTTx direct to home technology.
Okay. Sir, in your presentation on slide four, you mentioned about O&M contract of 17,000 km of optical fiber for BharatNet. Could you explain, sir, what are you conveying in that contract?
Yeah, that is for showing our capabilities. This project is already got over last financial year, which I talked about the EPC project, which we got for around 1,072 crores for laying the 17,000 km fiber for the GFGNL, the broadband-ready fiber. That's the project which we did, and we completed that. Yes, we have the capability of doing this type of big projects, and we are looking forward as government is coming up with new tenders and all for every state. We are looking forward that we will participate in more type of this project.
From this O&M contract, when will the revenue start trickling in, sir? What is the period from which, what would be the annual revenue you will be gathering? If you could explain the nature of the contract, sir.
The contract is which we won at that point of time is 1,072 of EPC project, plus INR 57 crore.
For four years.
For four years, INR 57 crore of O&M, operation and maintenance of these networks. The operation and maintenance of network has started in FY 2023, those revenues are showing in other operating income.
Actually, technically, it's a four plus three.
Four extendable to seven years. Four years extendable to seven years. Revenue has started in this financial year.
Yes. We will be booking revenue INR 57 crore. We'll not be incurring any cost on the same, this will directly go to the bottom line.
We are incurring the cost and making the margin of around, 25%. The 3%-24% of that.
Sir, barring this restatement on account of depreciation and also in terms of, if I say the below the line item of exceptional item, when can we restore back to this 23%-24% EBITDA margin, sir? And also, sir, if you could give us some more color on this exceptional line item, sir, of the sundry debtors written off, sir. What was the period for which these money was lying on the debtors, the aging part, and of the total receivable today, have you done the stress test on the same? I think the trade receivable on our completed business is around INR 292 crore currently. Are we done with everything here?
Yes, yes. First, yes, we are done with everything. The first thing. Second, as you talk about the provision for doubtful debt, that is amounting to INR 180 million, which is from certain identified receivables. As you know that Deloitte is our new auditor, and being the first year, they have advised on conservative accounting, and they have identified some of the parties, where with the management discussions and all, the recoverability of outstanding is a bit doubtful.
There they have advised for taking provisions in books. If the company is able to collect the outstanding amounts, it will reflect in our revenues in coming year. Yes, as Deloitte is now our auditor from this year, they have gone for extra conservative on that bit.
They have discussed all outstandings with the management and, wherever they find that there is a bit of they advise us to take the provisions, in the books. The outstandings were around one year old or one year, three months, something old. They have advised us to take this on the books. If you're able to recover it will come back into the revenues.
Out of this INR 15 crores, sir, number of parties affected? From how many people it was due, sir?
Five, six parties are there.
Six parties are there. We are doing business with them currently?
Yes, we are doing the business with currently, and it's, we are hopeful that we are going to recover those things.
Out of this INR 292 crore receivables, I mean, they are still owning money to us? 292
Not right, not right now. After doing the provisions, they are at zero.
Okay.
If we are going to able use to recover those, then that will come as a revenue to us.
Is it any disputed amount, sir? Is there any dispute on that figure or what is the nature of this receivable then?
Not disputed, yes, outstandings are there from those parties. They are always asking us for the time being the amount of the plots for that. Till date, we are giving them time to pay us on those. Right now, as you know, the amendment in tariff order has come, and we are implementing that. Somewhere that has also given the idea to our auditor that, as it is, it will become more difficult for them to pay us. They have asked us to take the conservative accounting and the provisions, they are saying that if you are able to collect, then it will come back as a.
Okay. Then coming back to the, our.
Sir, please.
Yes, sir.
Please
Yeah. My one question is left unanswered. It's a good answer. When we can return to the our historical margin, sir, that above 20% margin, when can we expect that?
You have to understand that the margins which we are looking at right now, you have to look at net pay channel, the trend on that. If you see on the net pay channel, which is your pay channel expenses minus marketing and placement revenues, if you look into that, we are almost at the same margin. Here, what is happening that my placement and marketing is increasing and my pay channel cost is also increasing in the same ratio. Placement and marketing revenue is not contributing towards the EBITDA, and there our EBITDA margin is going down on the margin side. When you look at the net pay channel cost, you will see that our margin is almost maintained.
I have joined with two more questions, but I will obey, sir. I will join this.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to two per participant. The next question is from the line of Rikesh Parikh from Rockstud Capital LLP. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, just wanted to understand on the, our cable TV business, we have been number one in Gujarat and number two in West Bengal, and right now we are expanding in six more cities. Want to understand what is our, medium-term plan over there over the next two to three years where we are expanding and, what is the size we are looking at, and, are the margins same or we are spending more to acquire the customer in those areas?
As I always say, our delivery is or our target is that in next three years we are going to add one million subscriber base every year on that basis in the cable side. That remains to us. Yes, we are going into the new market, but we are keeping our economy in such a way that it is not going to affect our EBITDA. The margins and all are at the same level. We are seeing that it should not affect EBITDA in the going forward.
Yes, when you go into a totally brazen market, at that point of time you have to do some of the admin expenses and all. As you get established within a matter of time, you start making the margins at the same level which we are making at the cable side.
Okay. Looking at the broadband side, I can see the incremental profitability is much higher, and we are able to get, roughly INR 10, ARPU increase year-over-year basis as such. Is it safe to assume that the incremental contribution on the EBITDA side that will keep on increasing going forward?
Yes, that's the strategy on which we are working, that our company is going to have 50% EBITDA from cable side and 50% EBITDA from the broadband side. Yes, we are working towards that. The pace of growth is going to be more in the broadband side.
Last thing, so I missed out in the beginning, just your focus on this GTPL Genie+. Means, what is our game plan and how will it show us apart as such, on this platform?
See, Genie+, we have launched as a B2C product right now, after sales product, which is doing good right now. Somewhere the game plan is to give a bundled product to the consumer where he can have cable plus OTT, we can have broadband plus OTT, he can have all three together, plus more services and all. That's, that's the plan on which we are working towards, which I just said that how you can bundle and how you can provide all type of services plus more new services, adding more services on this to the consumer.
That's, that's the plan on which we are going at. Yes, the margins are healthy on the OTT side also. We are looking forward that as we go forward, those margins are also going to contribute in our business.
Last question I just missed out. This NTO 3.0, how do you see it impact us and, this, on the cable side? Because incrementally we are losing out to the internet, side. Your thought on that, and will it help us increase our margin also? Means, revenue per subscriber.
See, NTO 3.0 I will say it is good for everyone, every stakeholder and all. We are looking forward more transparency in the market on that basis. Yes, it is going to be healthy for us for the DPOs. We are looking forward that as the NTO 1.0 has record the benefits, we are going to get the benefits in NTO 2.0 also.
Okay. Thanks. That's it from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ketan Athavale from RoboCapital. Please go ahead.
Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. Am I audible?
Yes, you are audible, sir. Please go ahead.
Sir, I just wanted to know on this depreciation which has increased, will it persist and what will be the run rate going ahead?
Basically depreciations, jo additional depreciation liya hai because earlier we were in a LAN technology and we migrated completely our network in a GPON. We going forward will not deploy that again LAN technology. Usi ki wajah se jo purane CPEs jo LAN ke the humne usko completely pura, because we don't want to redeploy in the market because then we are completely migrate into the GPON format. Usi ke base pe humne usko depreciate kar diya. Yes, yahaan pe unka as per the depreciation policy wo capture nahi ho raha tha lekin down the line niche hum usko redeploy nahi karne ja rahe LAN technology ko. Usi jaise humne bataya ki hum apne completely broadband ke existing infrastructures ko Metro Ethernet se LAN main convert ja rahe hai.
Toh last 3 saal se humari exercise conversion ki chal rahi thi. Almost today we reached almost 90% migration is completed. Purane jitne bhi CPEs the jo hum redeploy karne nahi ja rahe, usko humne additional depreciate karke usko daal diya.
Okay. You said for EBITDA growth for FY 2024, 13%-14%. How is it revenue growth looking for two years and EBITDA outlook in 2025?
If you see our own CAGR, we were doing around 18%-19% of revenue growth and 13%-14% of EBITDA growth. We are looking forward that we will from FY 2024, we are going to maintain those CAGRs.
Okay. Just one last question. In both of our business individually, what will be the ROE, steady-state ROE?
ROE is, you can calculate it, from the balance sheet. We are going to give the annual balance sheet this time, because investment in cable and, you can say broadband is different. Straightway giving the ROE is it possible to give the ROE right now?
Just in steady-state over long term, what it can be according to you?
Return on equity, if you talk about, I'll come back to you on that because what is the return of going on right now and how it is going to shape on those areas.
Okay. We can take that offline. Thank you. That's it from my side.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Guneet Singh from CCIPL. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for this opportunity. Especially at these valuations, the company looks like a very promising prospect, just like another speaker mentioned about doing a buyback. I heard about the discussions that we had regarding the CapEx, about INR 450 crore annually. One thing that I wasn't able to understand was that the returns are we expecting on this CapEx.
For example, if we are spending INR 400 or INR 450 crore annually, and like you mentioned, about INR 50-80 crore or INR 150 crore, including both broadband and cable, are going for maintenance and technology enhancements, and the rest is going for acquiring new customers, basically. I mean, if we are spending INR 450 crore annually, just a simple question.
If we are spending INR 1 crore, how much asset turn do we expect on it? For example, we are spending INR 450 crore annually. Can we say that we can expect, say, about 1.5 times, like 600 additional, INR 600 crore additional revenue? Or what kind of additional revenue do we expect? Because INR 400 crore this year and about INR 1,600 crore you mentioned for the coming three years.
So the figure goes down to about INR 2,000 crore. Can we reasonably say that after three years, we can expect an additional revenue of, say, INR 3,000 crore or INR 4,000 crore? I mean, that's just a simple question from my end. That's the only thing that-
When you are doing the CapEx, the assets, the asset is there for the long term, which is like 8-10 years. You have to see the return on those 8-10 years. First year. Right now, our ROA is going out around 16%. We are looking forward that return on assets at 16%-17% has to be maintained in the organization because when you look at the return on assets, you look at it the longer time, because assets is for the over the years. You can't say that INR 4,500 crore if I did, then my incremental revenue has to be INR 500 crore or INR 600 crore.
It has to be in such a reasonable way that, yeah, you get your ROA return on those assets which we are employing and the full assets on the whole side at 16%-17%, which is maintained right now. We are looking forward that, with the time it is maintained or increased from history.
All right. We are basically planning to maintain a revenue growth of 18%-19%, like you mentioned, for the coming four to five years, we can say.
That's right. That's right.
All right. Thank you. That's all from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Yash Sarda from Sushil Finance. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Sir, I can see in the Internet service business, the average earnings per user has been decreasing since the past two quarters, though our number of active paying users are increasing. Could you give us a guidance as to going forward in the next one, two years, any number of the numbers which will be stabilizing or do we see a growth happening? That's it.
Yash, can you? Your voice was cracking in the first sentence. Can you repeat that, the first sentence?
My question is pertaining to the broadband business.
Yeah.
Number of active paying users are increasing, have been increasing since the past two quarters. The earnings per user which is coming down has been on the down trend. In Q3, it decreased by 5%, and this year there was a loss. What would be the earnings per user where we will be having a steady state growth for the next 1.5 years? How many customers do we plan on adding for the next two years?
As I said that, we are looking forward that the next three years from 920K, 900K, we are looking forward that we are going to increase somewhere around 40%-50% of our subscriber base in next three years. That is our target which we have taken. The second thing is that you're talking about margin per user. Margin per user, if you see, we have overall way we have maintained that it's hardly INR 5 here and there. We are looking forward that those margin is, which is around 40% of our ARPU, is going to maintain in the coming years also.
As we are working towards the enhancement of our technology and all in such a way that on the same small incremental cost we have, going to able to serve more and more customers, which we are going to cross INR 1 billion very soon. The margin of 40% has which should be maintained on those.
Okay. Just a follow-up question. When the average data consumption increases, how much is the unit economics which we are benefiting? I think there has been a significant increase in the data consumption in the past one year, which is going to increase coming forward as well.
Yeah. That's, that's one of the direct costs which I will say. As I say that, we are doing the technology enhancements and all in such a way that we are able to manage those data through different technology peering, caching and all, in such a way that our margin remains the same. That's, that's the technology enhancements. Network management, you can say, how you rearrange your network in such a way by investing small amounts so that you save on those increasing of the bandwidth. Because that is one of the technology enhancement which we have to do because as you see data from last two year, it has increased tremendously. Still we are maintaining our margin and that is not pouring into our cost.
That's what we are doing, and we are confident that we are continuing to do so.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rama Manohar, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Sir, I have a question that you said that EBITDA will increase 13%. Is it on what we have achieved from INR 500 crores, or it is the FY 2021 numbers, FY 2022 numbers like what is INR 567 crores? The net profit margins. See, the profit after three years after spending some around INR 1,000 crores CapEx, profit remains same, whereas revenue increase, maybe profit is 40%, INR 70 or INR 80 crores, we have moved to like INR 1 crore increase.
Yeah, Manohar, I will just say that as we said that we are going to be close to INR 600 crores of EBITDA.
That's what we are trying to achieve in FY 2024, which we missed in FY 2023.
Okay. INR 600 crores will be the likely EBITDA you are targeting. What about the net profit margins, like depreciation, I'm not sure whether you are increasing the depreciation or it will be like INR 300 crores or INR 320 crores or INR 400 crores.
Come again. You're talking about which margin?
No, you said INR 600 crores. I am talking about net profit margins. Every quarter depreciation now it has reached INR 100 crores. Is it INR 100 crores or it is going to be just INR 80 crores again?
No, no, it is going to be INR 80 crores because this quarter you are seeing more because of the provision which we have made of INR 22 crore for the obsolescence of routers and others equipment, LAN routers and other equipments, which we have taken as conservative accounting.
That I got that. One more thing that last call you said that rate of return, rate of investment you will get back in 18 months. Now it is, already we spent around during last three years, INR 800 crore to INR 1,000 crore in the CapEx is done. Of course, some is maintenance CapEx. Still, after spending so much amount, our EBITDA remains same. I think we are missing something and-
If I go and bring new customer in the Cable TV, the return comes between you can say 15-18 months straightaway. Yes, as I said that we are investing around INR 50-60 crore in the CapEx to maintain our subscriber base. Those INR 50-60 crore is not giving me any returns right now from last 2 years. Okay? Rest of the assets are giving return at the higher rate, and that's why I am able to maintain my ROA at 16%. Rest of the assets which I am deploying is giving us around 22%, 23% return. This INR 50-60 crore is not giving me any return. In average, I am coming to around 16% of ROA. That's the equation, let us say.
Sir, not able to increase ARPU, the cable ARPU, or it's going to increase? What about this, April first, you said that I read some newspaper, or even last con call you said that you will take a call on ARPU increase?
Already we are implementing the NTO 3.0. We have started the whole thing from 15th of April, already the revised rates and packages have gone into the market. You can find it out in the market. That's already we are implementing NTO 3.0.
I think...
Yeah.
Yeah, that is my concern because, see, when you... Telecom players, mobile players, every family, I think their ARPU went up by INR 100 at least. If it's say two or three phones are there, whereas if we appear, GTPL is struggling to increase even INR 10 or INR 20 ARPU. I think, that is one anomaly. how, because that is I think the business, because we have a competition from DD and OTT, whatever it is. Tata even the Tata Sky, you say Tata Play, they are entering the broadband and security business because, I see a cable business, the cable TV business may go out of the market in three, four years or five years.
I'll come on that. First on the increase, yes. Increase you can say, revised prices and packages are already in the market from 15th of April from the morning. We are looking forward that as NTO 1.0 helps us in the whole thing. NTO 3.0 will also going to help us. That's thing. Second, your assessment on cable TV that it will be obsolete in three to three years, we don't agree. Cable TV is going to be there and going to grow the growth. That's the belief of the management. Yes, the bundling of the product, which I have already talked about, that you have to bundle.
We are also in the broadband. We are also doing the OTT. We are doing the entertainment in the cable. We have to bundle that. We have to, I have also talked about, we have to introduce more services, which is the requirement of the customer, which already a lot of things are, we are rolling also. You will come to know this year. It's going to be not only three bundle services, more bundle services, which we to satisfy every need of the customer. As we say that we look ourself as a pipe which has the access to the households. That's the strategy on which we are working and we look forward to launch all those things in this financial year.
Last one or two, answer questions like, increasing the ARPU will result in increase in, margin or just to offset, pay channel costs?
Yes, it is. If the ARPU is getting increased, the margin will increase.
Not sure to what extent our money and profit margin will increase, right?
The next quarter will come. We will talk more about this in the next quarter.
Okay.
You will start seeing some of the results in the next quarter.
One last question that you said that, "See, I want my company to focus more on broadband." Okay, now you are saying that broadband, I think, our nine lakh customers, you are aiming for a more 40%, 50% growth. I think that too for next three years, right?
Yes.
Don't you think it is a small increase because that is happening phase. This year, I think we did very bad. I think only, of course, cable TV company did good. Whereas coming to broadband, it is just 25K every quarter. Last two quarters you said there is a customer, B2B customer, 70K something. That also did not happen this quarter. What is that that you're clearly aiming for next 1 year broadband? Because I think there is a more scope for increasing the business.
You can stand up from pay will give you the broadband. Can you clarify?
The broadband side, if you see everywhere, you talk about the competitions and everyone, the growth which we are doing is at the same level of growth which other companies are doing right now. We are better than the some of the companies. That growth is going to maintain and that's going to enhance as we go forward. The B2B side of the business, yes, you're right that we are because of some technology here and there and mismatch and others, we are not able to do significant things in quarter four, which we were expecting, and that is one of the reason that you have seen our EBITDA a bit down because that contribution has not come in FY 2023.
We are hopeful that, FY 2024, we are going to get the B2B subscriber. Whatever projections I have given you on next three years is just for the B2C. I have not included the B2B projections on that. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. A very small point, sir. You mentioned we will be going back to the EBITDA number closer to INR 600 crore for FY 2024. Is this correct, sir?
Yes. Around. Around.
We were in the vicinity of INR 555-560 crore for FY 2022. If we keep that as a base, this being an anomaly year because of the non-cash item, we will have a growth of 10%.
Yes, you're right on that way because, the main reason is on that INR 550 crore around if you're talking about FY 2022 around INR 70-75 crore revenue was of activation revenue.
Okay.
Which was more of a like a deferred non-cash revenue. That's why I said that activation revenue is a non-cash. It is not affecting our cash generation capability and all, but it was contributing in the EBITDA, which has gone away. If you take away that, it is like from INR 480, I'm talking about INR 600. It's more of like in the two years time, around 22%-24% jumps, which is more of what we are talking about our CAGR.
Could you please explain this activation revenue part of the deferred part? I didn't get it correctly. What is the nature of the same and why would it appeared earlier and will not be a repeat item?
Yeah. Activation revenue is more of which, at the time of, DAS, when we are deploying our STBs first time in the market, we collected it from the customers.
Right.
Like INR 700, INR 800, INR 1,000 for the boxes, which has got deferred for five years. If you see the whole Phase IV, which has happened from 2017, 2018 until 2019, maybe you can say, deferred revenues were appearing in our books because of in India, you have to do the deferred for V years of those revenues. Those revenues which we have generated the cash on those years is part of the P&L, which is going away now.
Earlier and DAS implemented in India 2012, Phase I , 2002, Phase II is 2013, and Phase IV it is up to 2017. Is more than almost 150 million set-top box implement.
Yeah.
Let's say, take example like GTPL itself is almost 10 million customers activation revenue so almost INR 500 crore activation.
Yeah. Phase III was 2017. It was extended till 2019 somewhere. 2019, 2018 end.
Activation, part revenue. This is what, this has got or?
That's not going to be part. That is going to be very small amount. Very small amount of that which is remaining now.
Sir, charge number point slide network and infra, 97,000 km of optic fiber and all, sir. IP-1 asset we will be earning annuity on the same or if this is what the infrastructure we have laid out and we have booked the revenue and the profit on the same? I mean, are these IPV-1 type assets?
You are talking about GFGNL? That's EPC project.
No, no, sir. I am talking about our slide number four, wherein we have mentioned about our network and infra of 97,000 kilometer of optic fiber, and we have done work for BharatNet project for joining, connecting 3,700 gram panchayat and then the OM part. Are these clubbed under the IPV one asset? Are these infrastructure assets?
This is my own 97,000 km, which is I own it in different parts of the country.
Okay.
Where I put in my own optical fiber.
This is not GFGNL. This is-
This is.
GFGNL is not owned. That's owned by government.
That's, that is owned by government.
No, sir. Are?
Owned which I have created the assets in last.
Yeah. Yeah.
15 years.
Correct. Sir, are these the IPV-1 asset, the infrastructure asset wherein you will earn an annuity on the same, just like Vindhya Telelinks and other players too? The licensed infrastructure provider category.
No, no. It is not like that. I can lease these to different parties, but this is more under my B2B customers than for B2C customers. That's right.
Okay. In your presentation, sir, one point was mentioned about this Broadpeak video streaming solution. I'm looking where on which slide it was mentioned. If you could give us some more color, what are you conveying by this, and what is the differentiation and how would this contribute to the revenue part?
This is a basically it's a Broadpeak. It's a technology solution, whereas it's a CDN technology solution where you can deliver your content very easily, easy way and in very smooth way. I'll next time, if you want this in detail technology side, I'll ask my tech, CTO, he'll give you a brief guidance.
Okay, sir. Last point on the out of the employee cost, sir, what is the payment to the KMP? Is it a fixed cost or also a performance bonus that is being paid under the employee benefit expenses?
On the KMP side, yes, the around 15% of salary is on the bonus side, on the performance base, 85% is the fixed.
Okay. Out of this INR 145 crore, what is the contribution to the KMP on an annual basis?
We can take it offline. That's. We can take it offline.
Sir, I will get in touch, yes. Right, sir. Lastly, one small point on with smart TVs now being the order of the day and they are getting bundled up with our mobile phones and the internet getting more Wi-Fi to it. How do you think that advent on more technological advancement in terms of smart TVs taking foray, how are you think this cable business will survive and will get trust? cable business is going to be... Will have growth going ahead. Now with smart TVs coming into it.
Basically, down the line, check whether it is smart TV with Android or with iOS. GTPL is also doing understanding with a lot of television vendors. We'll come to know in quarter one or quarter two. OTT application. GTPL Live TV. Technology side upgradation. We'll let you know in coming either quarter two or quarter three. That is one part. The second part is, as more and more smart TV will come, we are happy because people are more moving towards the HD side. The quality of HD or 4K, which all those things, is going to give us the boost on our side.
Because the HD quality, if you don't have very high broadband connections and all, it is always be a trouble. In our case, HD quality is, you can say, very easily delivered on the smart TV and all, and, that is going to give us more chance to do the marketing to those guys.
Sir, just to summarize, it is going to be good customer experience going ahead. You are putting up technological upgradation, client acquisition. Investors in terms of valuation. Valuation is with the promoter. Different payout under tax incidence on dividend is also very high. That is both for the promoter as well as for the non-promoter entity.
How is the valuation going to improve and how are investors in the long run going to benefit from the type of CapEx and the money? Definitely, it will create the infrastructure. You are going to provide customers the right experience at the right price. How do you take a look after your investors, sir? Limited options, Reliance being on in the fold with Jio. What's the message for us as minority shareholders?
See, as a management of GTPL has been, if you see, whatever we have promised in the IPO time and throughout the years, we are fulfilling those in the business aspects and we continue to do so. If you talk about the shareholding side, that how it is going to get impacted and how the valuation. Because if you believe as a management, the valuation should go up because we are doing good in the business. Our, you can say returns are increasing, everything is increasing. We should have a good value on the whole, which we believe as a management.
But yes, restructuring or you can say how the shareholders has to look into that, I will say we will take the advice of our investors only individually that what we should do, so which we should recommend to our board or which we should recommend to our shareholders that what we should do so that the valuation should go up. I will say that we will take the feedback from the investors individually and present it to our board and the shareholders in that way.
Yes, sir. You should also engage firms that can get you... If you look at the all-time high, it was around INR 300 or INR 296. That was the stock price in way back in October 2021. We are now down, I think, if there is no corporate action taken, we are down to INR 100 today. On top of spending money, having more debt, there has to be the reason why market is not valuing the company. That needs to be done. Yeah.
As a management, we are also concerned on that the prices are at the lower side and which has come into down. We have to look that. See, as a management, we can do our business. On the business side, we can improve our things and our perception creation and the speculations and what we can do in the market and all that is, we will like to have our investor to tell us or advise us so that we can present it to our management.
Yes. Right. I won't, I won't harp on more on it, but you are the largest shareholder, you the whatever value creation will happen will be top-down only. If that is the three-fourth on the promoter and the remaining one-fourth for minority shareholders. Whatever steps you will take, it will not only going to go for your minority shareholder, but it will come down top-down from the promoter to the non-promoter. Kindly look into the aspect and the reasons you are therein or also the purpose of then remaining listed, sir, when value cannot be created for your investors. That's all from my side. Thank you.
Sure. We look forward to that, and we will talk individually as.
Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
We are hopeful that, as the company will do better and better, the share price will go better also. Okay.
Thank you, sir. All the best, sir.
Thank you. As there are no further questions from the participants, I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
I would like to thank the participants for taking out time to join our earnings conference call. We look forward to having continuous engagement with all the market participants. For any queries, please feel free to connect with Orient Capital, which is our IR advisors. Thanks. Thanks, and have a good evening.
Thank you. On behalf of Emkay Global Financial Services, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.