The Intellect Design Arena Limited Financial R esults for The Q2 of The Fiscal Year 2024 , 2025, Ending 30th September 2024 . The investor presentation and the press release has been sent to you and are also available on our website. Our leadership team is present on this call to discuss the results.
We have with us today Mr. Arun Jain, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Manish Maakan, CEO of iGTB; Mr. Rajesh Saxena, CEO of iGCB; Mr. Banesh Prabhu, CEO of Intellect AI; Ms. Vasudha Subramaniam, CFO. Besides, some other senior members of the Intellect management team are present in the call. Now, I hand it over to Vasudha to take you through the financials, and later, Mr. Arun Jain will give his comments on the same.
This will be followed by Q&A session, where your questions will be replied by the senior members of our management team. Once the Q&A start, you can ask a question by clicking on Raise Your Hand, and we would unmute you so that everyone is able to listen you. One safe option, I would like to remind you that anything which we say with reference to our outlook for the future is a forward-looking statement. This must be read in conjunction with the risks the company faces. With this, I request Vasudha to give her briefing. Over to you, Vasudha.
Thank you, Praveen. Good evening, all. Thank you for joining us today. It's my pleasure to welcome you to our investor meeting. We appreciate your continued support and interest in our company. Today, we will provide an overview of our financial performance, discuss key highlights from Q2, and share our strategic outlook for the future. Together, we look forward to achieving our shared goals. Let me start with the financial overview. Our revenue for full year 2024 stood at INR 250.64 million. We are a zero-debt company with a cash balance of INR 7,716 million. We are specialists in financial technology and open finance design. Complexity reduction and transformation design are in the core of what we do. We have strong partnerships with Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture, to name a few.
Intellect is on the path of continuous innovation and spends 2 million hours every year on research investments spread across 34+ nationalities. Design thinking is in our DNA. As you know, we opened the world's first design center for financial institutions in 2013. We have had more than 6,000 visitors across 60 nationalities from more than 150 banks visiting us till date. There have been over 600 walk-throughs till date. These design centers are the incubation hub for our innovative and customer-centric products. eMACH.ai, our first principles thinking-based, most comprehensive, composable and intelligent open finance platform, having 320, 386 microservices, 2,015 APIs, and 650 events. With this state-of-the-art platform, we transform everything: the enterprise, the experience, and the operations. Let's get into the performance overview.
Our total revenue for the quarter stands at INR 556 crores, with license contributing to INR 85 crores and AMC contributing to INR 120 crores. Our license linked revenue is INR 250 crores for the quarter, and our annual recurring revenue stands at INR 666.62 crores. Our gross margin is INR 298 crores, which is 54%, and EBITDA is INR 79 crores at 14%. At this juncture, I would like to mention that we had signed a deal close to $3 million in Q2, but could not accrue it in Q2 due to delayed sign-off. This would have taken our EBITDA to more than INR 100 crores. Collections during the quarter amounted to INR 550 crores, and our cash position as at the end of Q2 is INR 755 crores. We had 12 deal wins, and we went live on 9 digital transformation projects during the quarter.
Our DSO outside India is 190, and in India it is 270, which makes the overall DSO at 146. For the half year ending September 2024, total revenue is INR 1,161 crore, with INR 210 crore coming from license, INR 241 crore from AMC, and INR 112 crore from the platform revenue. We have had 23 deal wins during the half year, and 21 new deal transformations have gone live. PBT for H1 stands at INR 127 crore, and PAT stands at INR 168 crore. In the last twelve months, ending September 2024, our total revenue was INR 2,344 crore, with INR 468 crore of license revenue and INR 470 crore of AMC revenue. EBITDA for the period stood at 20%, and we had a PBT of INR 408 crore.
In the LTM, we had 53 deal wins, and we had gone live on 52 digital transformation projects. Talking about revenue mix, 39% of our revenues are in USD, followed by 18% in GBP, 16% in INR, 7% in EUR, 6% in CAD and 14% from other currencies. The numbers that we went through in the previous slides are presented together in a tabular column here with furthermore details. eMACH.ai is accelerating growth with deal wins and digital transformations in Q2, which are detailed in the forthcoming slides. eMACH.ai has been selected by 12 customers across the globe in Q2, and these financial institutions look forward to embrace enterprise connected intelligence through the first principles thinking-based open finance platform. We have six deal wins in the Americas, driven by eMACH.ai.
Our corporate digital transformation deal in the Americas paved way for our entry into the Mexican market. Our Magic Submission on eMACH.ai Xponent, a highly capable offering, has been inked by five large and specialty insurance firms in the US. In Europe, we had two major deal wins. eMACH.ai Xponent for easier underwriter consumption will be used by the UK's largest business insurance provider, and a UK-based leader in global finance with a huge asset size of EUR 1,478 billion, will be using our payment solution. We continue to offer low cost and reduced risk products to all our clients. There are four deal wins in IMEA. Our cards platform has been chosen by a large foreign bank in India. Our wealth platform has been chosen by one of the leading banks in Saudi Arabia.
A tier one lender in Kenya has chosen our eMACH.ai lending platform, and the largest bank in UAE has chosen eMACH.ai CTX to power their customers with higher returns on their cash capital. We have made nine digital transformations this quarter. The icing on the cake is the significant digital transformation deal going live with our Liquidity and CTX in a global tier one bank. This is the largest program in the bank, impacting processing of about $15 billion per day and runs in 50-plus countries on a single instance. Here are some of the analysts' endorsements that came our way. Datos Insights has recognized eMACH.ai Magic Submission as an intelligent document processing ecosystem solutions provider, and eMACH.ai digital lending has been identified as a vendor providing AI functionality in business lending. Celent has recognized our Xponent as an underwriting workbench with strong decisioning tools.
Chartis has recognized our credit lending operations as leaders in five different quadrants, and Gartner has recognized us as a representative vendor in digital marketing, multi-channel solutions, and commercial loan origination solutions. We are proud to celebrate our excellence in human capital. We have received the Gold Award for excellence in creating a culture of continuous learning and upskilling at the Economic Times Human Capital Awards. Secondly, we have been honored as the Most Preferred Workplace for Women Award 2024 /2025 by the Republic World and Team Marksmen Network. We have a funnel of eight thousand eight hundred eighty-nine crores as of Q2, with Destiny Deals accounting for 64% of the total funnel size in the quarter. The average deal size of the Destiny Deals is fifty crore, and our Destiny Deals, as a percentage of the total opportunity size, hovers above 60%.
Our funnel has grown by 18% over the last one year. The number of Destiny Deals that are being pursued have also increased from 74 the same time last year to 88 this year. In summary, we have a healthy funnel, and it is getting stronger and stronger as quarters roll by. The total high-value active pursuits, too, are continuously increasing and are 88 in number as of Q2. Overall, we have 71 lost, 73 carried from previous quarter and added 14. The number of wins is more than number of losses, and we have also added more than what we have won or lost. Thank you so much, and over to you, Arun.
Thank you, Vasudha, for taking through the numbers. So first of all, in my commentary, I think this quarter's financial results are not in line with expectation of analyst, what we, Praveen Malik mentioned, safe harbor statement, that we can't predict the future. We try to make it possible, so it's not just smiling, but I think what from investor perspective, so I'm looking analyst perspective different from investor perspective. From investor perspective, last quarter accrued significantly in terms of two main shifts we are doing. So if you are observing as an investor in last six quarters from March 2023, we are shifting eMACH.ai towards to drive the aspiration of having a larger business from US and US and Europe and Australia.
Advanced market share we wanted to increase, and that's how we shifted our pivot from product to the eMACH.ai, because we analyzed this customer needs more deeply, that they need two ways. One is legacy modernization space, or second is application rationalization space, and these are relevant from eMACH.ai perspective. So that is a shift. We first change the technology, so first three quarter we spent time in changing the technology landscape, and then in last three quarters, we are approaching the problems in a different manner. And this time, if you see it, we have close to two-thirds of the deals in, is from advanced markets. So this, out of 12 deals, 8 deals are in from advanced markets. So that's a big shift, which we are looking at it. Second shift we are doing is around distribution network.
A lot of time in the last four quarters, we are building trust among the four influencers in the market, Deloitte, KPMG, EY, and PwC. These are the four key players from a consulting side who are influencing buying decisions. We are working with BCG and McKinsey as a key board-level intervention, and there are seven SIs we are working on distribution networks. Our distribution partnership team, which is the second lever for our predictable revenue, is coming from that area. First shift is towards getting a higher margin business and a larger window size. Second is towards building a sustainable revenue.
Though the larger canvas which we build around the largest suite of eMACH.ai, as soon as we move to Americas, the Americas and Europe, I think we need to. These large institutions which we are working, which is top tier one institution in the space of what you call JPMC or Citi or HSBC or Wells Fargo, these are the names which are Santander. All these names are desirable name in any product company, that they, they are the customer, whether it's a KCB or ICBC, all of them, ENBD. All of them are those kind of a customer which are, needs to be there. Now, for each of them, the only problem is that each customer requires five bridges to be crossed for closing the deal. And with more and more global volatility, the risk department is taking longer and longer cycle time to close each bridge.
The bridge number one is business manager, where we need to sell the concept. Bridge two is my technology CIO. Bridge three is my architect. So once I qualify all the three bridge against an RFP, and I win the RFP, in spite of that, it takes six months to close two next bridge. First next bridge is procurement, and fifth bridge is contracting. It's close to five bridges we need to cross to have these deals. Some of the deals which we are already are in contracting stage, which I'll ask Manish and Rajesh and Manish, what we are looking at it, how the business opportunity we are looking at it. Those deals are still. Your question would be whether, your, our guidance of 15%.
So I think now, at this point of time, I would say we stopped taking the guidance because these deal values are large. Like what Vasudha has mentioned, there's a deal of $3 million which got signed just one week later, because of paperwork of 15 signatures, one signature happened only on much later date than the whole deal should have been signed it. Now, that has impacted, let's say, the 100 crore EBITDA versus non-100 crore EBITDA. There are at least many more deals of similar nature, which is there, which we already won the deals. It's still in the contracting process. So it's not for a defensive position that we are postponing, we are postponing, but it's the nature of business what we are in.
And that's why I'm addressing the investor, that this is a core issue of our business model, because we are looking for big size ARRs. So we are looking at single ARR of $1 million, single ARR of $2 million. The annual recurring revenue of $2 million, if you have to sign, normally, a small, small start-up will sign $20,000 ARR, $30,000 ARR. We're talking about ARR of $2 million. Now, those are the ARRs which are creating a huge value for the company, but it's taking an equally longer time for signing it up and multiple signing, time of evaluation. So on, say, shift two is on distribution. Microsoft, we are working very closely with them, and now we are the top five player in banking and financial sector.
They have chosen us in that category now. So the entire lifting up of the Microsoft has gone up. AWS is doing a similar job in other geographies and our financial sector inputs in that area. On consulting firms, we are now a full-fledged organization. We opened a new office of partnership in Bangalore to service these partners and doing a boot camp with them. And then global service, global integrators. So now we are ready with our integration at eMACH.ai. With Turmeric and Purple Fabric, we are ready to let go implementation to our partners, and we are successful implementation in Philippines. It's one of the large deals where Accenture implemented our solution, and that's why we are building a good capacity with Accenture. So this is on distribution side. At this point of time, I would like to invite Manish, how he's seeing AI, AI in insurance and wealth.
Yeah. Thanks, Arun. I think I'm gonna stay, you know, on the same theme that Arun brought up. I think if you've seen your company over the last couple of quarters, consistently has been winning insurance deals in North America. Our insurance business is primarily focused on North America, and it is a complete 100% AWS SaaS subscription platform. I think over the last quarter, and, you know, Vasudha just highlighted all the deals we've won. We've got a good amount of five odd deals every quarter that we are doing. But there are two frames to this, right? One frame is the continuous focus, because we've got a very large set of leads. We have over 300 leads actually in the insurance business.
And I think the leads are focused on certain set of segments of insurance carriers, brokers, and wholesalers in different insurance business lines, where we continuously expect that every quarter we will sign subscription deals. Now, all of you know that subscription, as Arun mentioned, ARR, gets accounted every quarter on a monthly run rate basis, and therefore the revenues that you sometimes see, you know, do not justify in the shorter term, the subscription revenue, but they grow significantly over a period of time. We've got over 25 customers in North America right now in the insurance business. But what's interesting is we just completed the recent sort of mega event for insurance in the world, actually, not just in the US. It's called the ITC event in Las Vegas, where we actually shared the primary booth, which had almost 300 people come to it.
We shared the presentation jointly with Microsoft to the whole panel. I think almost 9,000 people attended it. So I think our insurance business that you are seeing and your, you know, your company is seeing, is actually a very solid frame of businesses. Now, we have a bunch of deals which are pretty large ARRs, too, Arun mentioned. And we are also seeing some people, based on the sheer size of the business and the growth that they're seeing, would also like to consider doing licensed deals. So we are actually very flexible in the way we approach how we can help the customer succeed. And just to remind everybody, we are an underwrite - we are sort of the best in underwriting ecosystem in the U.S.
As a matter of fact, recently, we've been awarded again for 2020 for the Luminaries Award by the leading property and casualty insurance analyst that covers pretty much through an independent panel the insurance capability. I think what I would like to say is that this business momentum is growing, and it will both for large deals as well as smaller deals on a regular basis keep growing our subscription revenues. That's a bit on the insurance side. I'm gonna touch on the very exciting area of AI, your platform, Purple Fabric. We've had pretty much all the partners that Arun mentioned, leading audit companies, some clients of ours. I think we've done over 35 sessions in the last quarter.
What this platform does differently from others, because there's a lot of noise, there are a lot of AI platforms there in the market today. I think what our platform does different, it helps financial institutions manage their data securely, because we know all the security threats that today exist on data, both information security as well as privacy. We help them govern their AI initiatives, because many people are trying small pilots. There's a lot of noise, there are lots of companies going after small use cases using ChatGPT and various type of large language models. I think we believe that our financial institutions, we owe to them a very stable platform to manage AI, and we've got a very good complete platform, which is very well accepted by both the leading audit companies, the consulting companies, as well as some of our leading clients.
And we have actually three very good deals. One of them has gone into pilot. Two are actually we have one in the U.K., which are in the process of contracting. And I'm sort of hopeful over the quarter, we will clear out some of these contracting things. Remember, AI is going through a significant amount of regulatory influence, new regulations coming in. So even the contracting teams do take time to put together all their signatures before they go ahead with us. But I just want to leave with you that we are probably one of the best positioned to manage AI agents and multi-agents working together to transform operations. So you're, you'll be hearing a lot of Purple Fabric as we move forward. And we've already launched the product in a few places.
So, so that is the other point I wanted to touch on. Third is, of course, your wealth business is beginning to get traction. We've had, you know, four excellent deals. As you know, last quarter, we had a significant deal with one of the largest asset managers in the world. But similarly, we've recently-- Sorry? Yeah, we recently won a very good deal in Saudi, too. And I think our platform is well geared to be able to capture what is a growing wealth business quite significantly in most of the markets we are focused on. I think, Arun, that's a bit of a snapshot.
Yeah.
Longer term, the business, where it stands with its leads and capabilities, is really well positioned for an investor, keeping in mind a longer-term return for the company.
Thank you, Manish. I think today's message on the release is also Purple Fabric announcement. This is very, very unique platform. We last time we promised to have a session with the investor, separate session, Manish, maybe we can schedule. It's pending from the last call. We should do a separate invite to the what Purple Fabric and what AI, because a lot of investors don't know what they don't know, and it's a very, very noisy, as you mentioned. So if you can have schedule a session in next two, three weeks, Praveen, for investors-
Yes.
to have a session only. Last time they requested it, I think we were so busy with the client and prospects that we didn't pay attention to the investors. So maybe, whosoever is interested, they can request and participate in for an understanding of what Purple—what the market is doing, what Palantir is doing, and where the customer who was using Palantir, they're finding an opportunity to talk to us. Okay, now it's Rajesh, if you can look at core banking, which is a big area of change and transformation, which is being heard about it, where are we in that journey?
Sure. Thank you, Arun, and good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to everyone on this call. Let me give you a little bit of a business commentary on where we are from a GCB perspective. And in line with what Arun and Vasudha talked about, our focus on advanced markets. Let me pick Europe as an example, and talk about what's happening in Europe. You've heard me talk a little bit about Europe for the last couple of years, about how our strategy is pivoted around Europe. And I think over the last couple of quarters and years, we have been making investments and building our Europe sales team, pre-sales team, delivery team, et cetera, so that we can have a critical mass there.
Europe, from a couple of years back, where from GCB, Europe was a very small proportion of, as a percentage of revenue. This year, in fiscal 2024-25, my estimate is that Europe will be more than 25% of my revenue will come from Europe. That's what we've been able to build. Let me give you a little bit more color around Europe. I think if you look at it from an existing customer's perspective, you would recall that, we have had, a couple of wins in the past. We talked about Santander UK, where, a subsidiary where we've got a core banking side. Happy to inform the investors and analysts that we've been able to renew this contract, and we have actually renewed it with a further more work.
A couple of years back, we also talked announced the deal with Otto, one of the second-largest e-commerce player, where we provide our core and lending platform. There also, we've been able to. The customer is very happy with us, and they have actually we've been able to increase our footprint in Otto. So the strategy of increasing our and trying to do more with our existing clients is working very well in Europe. From a new client's perspective, though, we couldn't sign large deals, and I think Arun talked about that. We have five deals where we are in the last stages from a Europe perspective. Two of them on core banking is in U.K., two are in continental Europe, and one, of course, is in South Africa, which is a you know which is a multi-country rollout.
So I think we are seeing our proposition, our references, our investments that we have done, and hopefully in the next couple of quarters, we hope to close these deals and bring the license revenue in. So that was a little bit about Europe. I also wanted to take a minute to talk about that learning from iGTB Oxford, where iGTB Oxford has been able to make a Sage brand and doing this transaction banking event. For the first time, from November fourth to November seventh, we are having a central banking event on similar lines that we do in GTB, where we are doing this in Oxford at the Rhodes House, where we now have about 50 central bankers.
These central bankers range all the way from governors to deputy governors and, executive directors, attending this event, with us. We have about 30 speakers, confirmed speakers globally, coming into this event. This is the kind of effort and thought leadership that we've been able to create into, in Europe, and this is something similar that we are doing in other parts of the world. I just thought I'd pick up Europe since Arun and Vasudha talked about it. You know, sitting where I am, I'm feeling very bullish about some of these deals, so hopefully in the next couple of quarters, we should be able to see good results. Thank you, Arun.
Thank you, Rajesh. I think the important is, the eMACH.ai and core banking are able to implement in Santander UK or Otto. They are happy customers because a lot of time, this transformation never completes. A lot of people promises. Now, just PNB, one of the largest, one of the bank, has gone live on core banking transformation in seven months' time. It's the fastest transformation, and it's on their website. The chairman is publishing that, how they helped the customers, to go live in seven months' time. So that's why I think the differentiation which we are creating over our competition. Manish, it's your turn for your GTB brand and large account access you have, the dream account access.
No, thanks, Arun. I think I feel quite proud that we've implemented a successful market strategy by aligning all our eMACH assets, both IP and talent, across Tier One and Tier Two banks worldwide. Our core strategy has always been to grow with customers globally and extend to other regional or local banks in the market, where we enter through global Tier One banks. So that helps us to be the, remain with the market leaders and establish the market leadership brand. This alignment has fostered deep trust and strong relationship with the top 60% of the banks across all continents, and this leads to high-quality revenue growth consistently for us. A steady stream of wins has demonstrated the continued success and impact of this strategy.
We, in this last quarter, moved two very, very large banks, close to $1 trillion of their assets, deposit base, from one platform to the other, and it, it's been very big success for them. So our capability to execute large execution is also a proof point consistently in our winning strategy. This has now further been strengthened with the enterprise-grade eMACH cloud availability, which in the last 120-150 days, which Arun's been talking about, we've been rolling across markets. The big differentiation this offers now is that our core capabilities are available in a unified solution, and they have embedded AI into the core platform. This also excites all our system integrator and consulting partners now that they have capability to effectively roll out and implement these things.
Additionally, what we have been doing is work along with McKinsey and BCG to better articulate the unique value we create for wholesale banks. I think we are one of those unique partners who understand the depth of the corporate, understand what a retail industry, what a, what an oil and gas industry, what different industry core needs are, and we are able to compose, composite solutions for each of the corporates using that. Based on this, in the last quarter, we managed to close four significant deals across Americas, Europe, and Middle East. And notably, three of those four were the existing customers, where they bought more capability, more IP from us. And the fourth customer, we opened up in a new Mexican market.
The beauty of that is that number of senior execs from this bank had experienced our wholesale banking CBX in their previous roles, in their previous lives. So consistent endorsement and high NPS has helped us continuously to win with these markets. I think looking ahead, I see a robust pipeline of about 10 deals we expect to close. These are deals between 20-30 crores across the next four quarters. And I look at the four quarters as two different horizons. H2 FY 2025 as the first horizon, and then HY FY 2026 as the second horizon. For this period, I am quite bullish. And we just concluded last week a very successful Sibos.
There were apprehensions of it being in Beijing, but despite that, we managed to pull good amount of customers and prospects, and we had over 130 meetings over there. I'm looking forward to monetizing these connections and strengthening our sales funnel further with this successful event conclusion. Thanks, Arun. Back to you.
Yeah. Thank you, Manish. I think, the overall commentary to me is, we are more busier than any point of time. I have personally visited 20 different cities and met the customers and met the prospect. I think that the kind of appreciation we are getting from the market is that you are better than any other architecture framework which is there. I would say this is a journey of Intellect 3.0, where we are looking for now expanding some sales investments in next 4 quarters. So there'll be some additional cost on the sales investment because that there's a right time, and we can leverage it, whether it's in the sales for Purple Fabric.
We were discussing multiple times that should we take AI business out of Intellect, but we believe that AI business is core part of our strategy, and it works integrated way, but we need to make an investment. We are sitting on a large cash pool of INR 700+ crore in our kitty, and this is a time when we'll be putting some investment into expanding the sales network in U.S. and Europe. Our proof point has been established in last six quarters, so that's the most important piece, is that we wanted to prove whether it's working or not. First three quarter was just a concept selling, but after that, it become a real good value creation, where we can have a deep conversation with CIO on how can he reduce his cost by $50 million over the next five years?
What kind of a conversation we can do at a strategic level? It lifted our conversation from product level conversation to a strategic level conversation with the customer, and that's where the significant, deeper relationship we can have. We have close to around 35 accounts where there's a potential of each account to become a $10-20 million size in next 3-5 years. And that is a potential which itself can become $500-700 million business. So I think that's why our excitement is very, very high, and we, all of us are traveling. Rajesh is in the U.S., Manish is in London, so all of us are in different part of the geographies, in this period.
So I know your numbers of this quarter are not met, but look at it overall perspective, from investor perspective, that the company has got better assets. We had such event happen in last six years of journey, that every three years there is a something drops down and then come back again. So this is again, an opportunity for somebody to find investment opportunity in the company. Thank you, and willing to have some questions.
Thank you, Arun. Now the forum is open for Q&A. In case you want to ask a question, please click on Raise Your Hand. I repeat, in case you want to ask a question, please click on Raise Your Hand. First, we have Mr. Vivek Kumar. Vivek Kumar from Bestpals. Vivek, unmute yourself.
Am I audible, sir? Huh?
Yeah.
Yes, Vivek, please go on.
Sir, thanks for the opportunity. My question is: when will we get back to this EBITDA being above 20%? And that is definitely a function of the deals, and every quarter, we are missing few deals at the – not missing, sorry, few deals are getting postponed to the next quarter signing up, and because of that, margins are getting affected. And last two and a half years, you have been investing in eMACH.ai and all these new platforms, and, from the investor day, you were saying, and you are so positive because you are looking at the current demand and future prospects. So when do you think all these products will fire up, and we will definitely stay above 20% margin and good growth?
When I say good growth, about 10%, 15%, irrespective of all these kind of small, small events, because these are not big things like huge recessions or COVID kind of thing. These are like one deal, one deal getting signed or delays. Even accounting for delays and minor disruptions, when will we, as a company, go above 20% and stay there? Two years, three years.
It will be, I think... No, no, no. 20% EBITDA margin is not a big issue. Even LTM, we still are 20% plus on LTM basis. It's only, maybe next two quarters, we'll see the significant shift, if you look at it on annualized basis. So we are quite bullish about it. 10 deals in Manish, 5 deals in Rajesh, 3 deals in Banesh are all more than $3 million deal, each of them. So even if we are able to convert out of those 18 deals, 6, 7 of them will be above 20%.
Growth, sir, growth. When will we get back about this? Because we have designed our company as architecture-
Yeah, yeah.
in 20% growth. So
That's, I think.
Because of this GeM and your investments taking time to pay off, I think this is getting delayed, so when will we get back to this predictable 15% growth?
Last quarter, I mentioned about INR 700 crore annual run rate, so I think our target is next three quarter, we should have at least one quarter above INR 700 crores.
Okay. So, sir, and-
Which is a lucky, lucky quarter could be, that's another point of view, because deal sizes are big.
Okay. Sir, on the digital core banking, can you throw more light on... Because you said we have come on to the top three, and we are fighting deals. And how many deals are we fighting in the digital core banking, and how are we faring with respect to competition, Temenos and Thought Machine? So if you can, Rajeshji, throw more light, deeper light on that.
Rajesh?
Yeah. So I think, you know, we are seeing good traction in the core banking space. From a market perspective, I think we are seeing good traction, and we are seeing lot of banks who were earlier apprehensive of doing a core banking transformation, coming into core banking transformation space. So I think from a market perspective, it's a good sizable market. Of course, some banks may have different strategies, some may have hollowing the core, some may have other strategies, but this market size is good. And I think from the deals that we are invited for, right, we are seeing a competition space, either from Temenos or sometimes from new age players like Thought Machine or Mambu, et cetera.
You know, I've said this multiple times, but let me repeat it again: we are in a very sweet spot because we have the latest technology stack, right? Which a new age platform brings, but we also have the domain and the width of the product. So we are really in a sweet spot for able to do. And whenever we are competing, I would say that we are winning, you know, as much as a Temenos will win or a Thought Machine will win. So top three players, and we are seeing good traction in that. The other point I wanted to make was that last year we had announced the win of OTP Bank in Hungary. OTP Bank just as a reference point is like the HDFC or Central Eastern Europe market.
It's a very prevalent bank there, and we are right now in the process of implementing for OTP, and the kind of maturity our platform is getting because of what we are doing for OTP. I can confidently say that from a platform perspective, we are going to be the world's best platform from a core banking perspective, so that's why there is so much of bullishness from that perspective.
Arunji. Thank you, thank you, Rajeshji. Arunji, someone mentioned that clients are more preferring license deal this because of the. Is there any shift towards clients preferring licensing, or it is just a random remark?
No, it's both are there. I think the people last year on bank preferred license revenue. Sometimes they look at it, we want to sell recurring revenue, because that's a, for ten-year deal value, recurring revenue of $1 million is a $10 million revenue, while license of $2 million, it doesn't give you that. And our values are like Flexcube. If you look at it, the Oracle offices, the value is like a, your old achar, na, jitna purana hota hai utna achcha hota hai, old wine. To jitni badi purani wine hogi, utni mehengi hogi. To jitni company badi hoti jaati hai, utne hi jyada wala. We are having more value getting created in this kind of a product.
These annual ARR, we prefer, but if customer have a very large deal value running into $4-5 million license revenue number, where the AMC itself is $1 million, we are okay to go for a license revenue. Open for both.
Sir, last question. On the BaaS, two years back, Manishji said, "We are trying to do it in Americas, North America, and advanced economies." How is the traction in the BaaS strategy that we have taken?
... We did announce a deal in quarter one on that-
Yeah.
in the US market, and we're working with, three or four more of those in, like I said, out of the 10 deals in the marketplace. See, it's, I would want to add to what I said. It's, BaaS is one thing. The second significant shift is embedded AI in our platforms, and that's what everyone's looking at, of how I can transform my operations with AI. But doing it outside the platform versus, because of our Purple Fabric assets, our, as our capability to orchestrate within our platforms, I think that's the magic bullet right now, which is, creating my excitement as a big differentiator in the market.
Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Arun Ji, for the opportunity. Thank you.
Thanks, Vivek. Next, we have Mr. Umang Shah from Banyan Tree Advisors. Mr. Umang, please unmute yourself.
Hi, am I audible?
Umang?
Yes. Can you hear me?
Yeah. Please go on.
Yeah, hi. Thank you for the opportunity. Two questions. How much investments are we planning to make in eMACH.ai, in terms of setting up sales offices in North America and Europe? That was the first question. Second is that North American banks have been very reluctant to move to newer technology, be it core banking or be it cloud-native platforms. So what gives us this confidence that the eMACH.ai platform that we currently have will help these North American banks leapfrog from their 30, 40-year-old legacy systems to the current microservices architecture? What are the conversations that have changed over the last two years, which were not changing for the last 10, 15 years? Those would be the two questions. Thank you.
Responding to the first question, I think in next six quarters, we should be spending around $20 million. We have to still work out the details on the investment, which will be close to $20 million. We are, in the board meeting, we were discussing about it, that it's an opportunity, it's the lowest cost investment because products are ready. People take time to build the product over here. We have invested last ten years in building the product. Now it's a time of GTM. So it's a. It takes nine to twelve months for sales team to start realizing the value what is invested. To respond, second question, to you on why American customers are more open right now.
I think the cloud technology and AI technology, I think what Manish has mentioned, embedded AI, is a sweet spot we are getting because we are talking about enterprise-grade AI platform, not ChatGPT, as a transactional-grade solution. So we are embedding AI into trade system, we are embedding AI into lending system, we are AI into underwriting system. So that's why our US customer is an entry point for us is AI now. So AI is a starting entry point, and then we build up a story around microservices. So they are not looking to change entire core banking system, but with my Turmeric and Purple Fabric, we are able to offer application rationalization, which is a space which is emerging. Because they are running, let's say, 30 applications which are fragmented, with a fragmented database.
With AI, we are able to consolidate those thirty application into two application. That's a big win for their perspective. So that's how we are addressing to build a trust in U.S. So I must appreciate your deep study in the market, that they will not be changing core system. We are also not asking them to change core banking system.
Arun, just wanted to add, if it's fine, right? So, thanks for the question. You know, one of the things we are seeing, at least on the insurance side, everybody is using a cloud-hosted, multi-tenant platform. But on the banking side, the interesting thing is eMACH, because of the nature of its architecture, can coexist along with legacy. So I think your ability to be able to take certain pieces and not transform all of core banking at one shot, I think is a very, very interesting way of actually implementing and coexisting along with legacy, regardless of whether you go to a cloud solution, because we are agnostic on cloud and eMACH.
You could take parts of this, compose it and actually execute it to actually improve the priorities for a client and get good business outcomes, rather than expect to do a full transformation, which was something that many people had to do in the past and, you know, had its own challenges.
Great, sir. This is very helpful. Thank you for explaining this. So because we are reluctant, I mean, the banks are reluctant to do full transformations, and our entire pitch around our core banking system of IDA core banking system was that we would ease this transformation for these banks and help them move to a much more componentized nature, then wouldn't eMACH.ai actually compete with your core banking product, which you have for the banks?
Core banking product is embedded into eMACH.ai, so all the core microservices are available, like in OTTO Payments, which is the largest company, we embed the core banking microservices into their application. So I think we need to just explain to you more clearly that microservices, what we said, 386 microservices, we may choose 15 microservices to make an application rationalization, which can coexist with the existing core in a phase one and phase two and phase three. So that's what we are proposing, that we can help the bank to reimagine banking rather than a modernization.
Just adding to what you said, look at some of the modern new core-banking players. The difference between what they have and what we have is they just have an SDK. The domain depth of those capabilities is really lacking. Our experience and expertise of rolling these things out across these large Tier One banks across so many markets. So we have a modern technology which has been recomposed on the eMACH architecture, as well as our thirty years of depth of expertise. You don't overnight become that expertise. You can read a ChatGPT, but ChatGPT doesn't give you depth of knowledge. Depth of knowledge comes by the experiences. I jokingly say, scars we have on our backs, building and learning through this thirty years of journey. You can't underestimate that for any new competitor. Enterprise-grade technologies are not built overnight.
Great, sir.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Suman. Next, we have Mr. Ravi Mehta. Mr. Ravi Mehta from Deep Financial. Ravi?
Yeah. Hi, am I audible?
Yeah.
Just one-
Ravi, you are there?
Yeah, I'm there.
Yeah.
I hope I'm audible.
Please ask your question.
Yeah. Okay. So my question was more on the environment. So, we hear a lot of IT service company, you know, giving good commentaries around BFSI, demand uptick. How is it for you, at least, you know, when we compare it, say, three, four quarters back and now, when we see this, you know, deal signings delayed, at which leg it is getting delayed? Whether it is the, you know, concept selling stage or the, compliance or risk. Just want to understand how the environment is changing and where exactly the delay is happening. If it's at the, you know, closer end of compliance and all, it is still okay. Whether the, you know, initial, pitch is getting sailed through. Just want to understand that.
Okay. So I think that if you look at the lead generation process to the closure process, we call it P0 to P5, six stages of the... Our lead generation process, as Banesh puts it, we have a-- now we need to really take a conscious call that which are suspect, which are prospect to further work on it, which is how do we move from P0 to P1 to P2? So we had a good amount of traction. In last one quarter, we added close to 150 plus or 180 leads in this same quarter in the funnel. There are significant acceleration happened in the lead to opportunity, which is close to 100 leads have moved to opportunities. There's a movement happening.
What the real issues are there, which is related to 50% of issues are related to contracting phase after third, fourth gate within the deal wins. So after winning the deal from business manager, technology manager, CIO, architect, after qualification of this gate, a lot of gate. We are stuck at gate four. Between gate three and gate four, we are stuck at. The procurement wants to negotiate $100,000. Somebody wants to put some contract. The meeting will be. One meeting will happen, second meeting will happen after four weeks, five weeks. So those are the things which are 50% deal get stuck.
50% deal which is there in the pipeline, which mentioned in a large deal, Vasudha mentioned, are in the space of, we are in last two, and we have a superior architecture. Some of the deals we are new to the country, so we need to reestablish our referencability in that country. Some of the Nordic countries or some of the European country where we don't have a footprint, our own footprint, it takes referencability as a lever where it extends the time, so they go for the reference check for the existing client. So a lot of deals we are in the last two. Last two, I think we are reaching in last two with the eMACH.ai.
Most of the deal, almost 80%, once we are able to apply for RFP, we are in last two. Last two to last one is, one of the other gate, 50% deals. So 50% deal is after we have won the deal, there's a time to close with all the tick marks of auditors. So it's a big, big shift which is there, and all the risk committee members. So, Ravi, if I answered your question.
What would be, you know, the timeline of closure compared to, say, maybe, three, four quarters back and today? Like, has it shrunk or is it getting... If the deal size is same, I understand that you getting into larger deals will take time, but, say, a similar size deal, is it shrinking or-
For us, it's expanding, so there's no shrinkage for us. Even twelve months back, we were not shrinkage. IT services company may be shrinking, but we were not shrinking in four quarters back also. So our value per position is not shrinking.
All right? Okay. Just one bookkeeping question. The subscription revenues had actually fallen Q on Q. I thought it's sticky business when, you know, a client is getting into a subscription contract. So anything to it and why so?
The subscription revenue also flip on recognition system of subscription revenue because there is a, as per accounting policy, if subscription revenue of license is independent of the infrastructure, one can accrue full year revenue in a quarter, while so those are the lifts in the subscription revenue.
Okay, thanks.
Thanks, Ravi. Next, we have Mr. Rahul Jain from Dolat Capital. Rahul, please unmute yourself. Rahul?
Yeah. Yeah, I hope I'm audible.
Yeah, yeah. Please go on.
Yeah. So, just a couple of questions. I think, firstly, to extend the thought which we were discussing earlier, on the SaaS reduction. So is there an element of annualized booking in one of the previous quarter for us to have this number at this point? And secondly, is there a still a gem kind of a revenue element which could have caused this thing, in the SaaS line item?
Hmm. No, there's no GeM revenue.
There is no gem revenue there, so... But, one or two projects, yeah, we had a high subscription revenue in the previous quarter, because it's all depending upon volumes, right? So if we have a higher volume, so naturally, the subscription will, the revenue will be higher. So that way, we had some in last quarter. Comparatively, it was lesser in this quarter. That's it.
Sure. Sure. And this we have observed in multiple accounts and not one or two specific clients.
Yes.
Okay.
Volumes will not be consistent, right? So it will not be the same from one quarter to other quarter. There'll be ups and downs.
Yeah, that, that we understand. But, this is a, significant, decline. It's like 30% decline. So that way, of course, it sounds, pretty, different from that context. And, and we, on the demand side, Arun ji, of course, we have, you know, explained in detail that, how some of the landscape is shaping up. But from our, specific, pipeline, perspective, what is the way to go back to, 15% to 20% kind of a growth journey? What are the challenges you see in the immediate future, in case, you know, that becomes a risk from a next four quarter perspective to go back to 15% to 20% path?
Now, deals are there in the pipeline. I think it's a question of when it get accrued. So just we need some more patience in this areas, which it should have taken care of in one or two quarters. But we are looking for a positive numbers in the coming quarters, because deal pipeline has been mature now.
I think, Arun, just to add what you said, if you look back in the past also, Q3, Q4 typically are better quarters for us, and that's why the annual, we say. So we just got to watch that out.
Because Q3 is better. Like Americas and Europe, most of the budget cycle is Q3, Q4. So budget cycle of Americas and Europe is linked to the budgeting cycle. When we have more deals in this part of the world, Asia Pacific, it's Q1, Q2 also is good. But Q3, Q4, when we are moving our focus to Americas, then Q3, Q4 will be better because their decisions are budget cycle decisions, they are planned decisions. While in Asia, decisions can happen anytime.
Understood. And, you know, one of your competitor, Oracle, they've been witnessing significantly higher value of cloud deal in the total license fee that they are signing. And, our conversation suggests that they see significant traction from the cloud deal perspective. So is there something like that, that our positioning in those kind of deal is slightly different, and that's why we see a slight difference from the momentum difference in the last couple of quarter versus what probably Infosys is delivering right now?
Yeah, Rahul, Oracle has advantage of old deals, of 20-year-old deal, which they are migrating to cloud. So they are. When I look at the study, the new wins versus migrating wins or the upgrade wins. So when they are upgrading, they are upgrading on a cloud. So that's one tailwind they have available with them. In few of the clients, we can also have a tail, like what Rajesh was mentioning, Santander we upgraded, Otto we upgraded. So whenever we are upgrading a client, you get a higher value and higher pricing to the deal because of the tail. We're still not as big as Oracle Financials on the existing client, which are more than 10-year-old clients.
They are trying to leverage the lost ground on cloud by subsidizing some of these deals on the cloud basis.
Even Oracle is subsidizing, yeah.
Yeah. The Oracle cloud, they say, comes at the same price. We are in competitive bids. They say whatever is the other person's bid, our bid is along with cloud. So they need to show cloud growth, because that's where they're losing out with Amazon or Microsoft.
Understood. And Manish, to your point, and sorry, Arun ji, if I missed the comment, because you were mentioning something around the guidance part. So since Manish is saying that the H2 could be good for some of your bigger markets, so are we still commenting on our annual guidance for this year, or you are saying for now we should be, you know, skipping that for now?
Mm-hmm. You want to pinpoint, we-- We don't want to give any more guidance with the kind of a volatility which has happened, indeed. So we want to avoid any guidance. What we want to do the commentary on the quality of the business and conversation quality of business. So, this quarter-on-quarter pressure is unnecessary and deplete our energy at the company employee level. They feel that suddenly share price move up, move down. Our, our momentum, which was there in the market, feels positive right now. So we don't want to, like, look at it into just have a, mirror for lens for the guidance. So we don't want to give guidance now, but we are very positive, healthy about it. Still, growth can be there for this year, so don't worry about that. So, how much growth can be there?
Depends on someone out of these 18 large deals which is there, how many we can close, which is almost crossed the gate of a third gate or fourth gate they have crossed.
Rahul, we genuinely feel responsible for the growth we have to deliver. It's also balancing medium to long term. There are challenges. I could close deals by dropping price. We are driving the right value and right margins for the organization. We're expanding the footprint. The most beautiful thing is now cross-sell of all product lines into large tier one banks, which GTB really won them early. There's a lot of effort on there. AI is behind us. It's just two quarters we've come off gem, and H2 is always better than H1. These are factual statements I'm saying. None of this is an emotional comment. I think we need that confidence and support from each one of you in this journey. We've enjoyed it. We look forward to that.
Yeah, it's definitely heartening to hear that. And we are sure in last seven, eight years, Intellect has been the fastest growing in this category, so we don't have any question around it. We're just trying to understand the current state of things. Best wishes for the time being. Thank you.
No, thanks for appreciating that.
Thank you, Rahul. Okay. So we close our...
Arun, some four more are there.
Okay. Let's extend by 10 minutes.
Okay. Okay.
Thank you, Rahul. Next, we have Mr. Rohit Balakrishnan from iThought PMS. Mr. Rohit Balakrishnan?
Hello, good evening, sir.
Rohit, you are there?
Yes, sir.
Good evening. Yeah, please go on. Yeah, you are audible. Please go on.
Yeah, good evening, Arun, sir. So, sir, just a couple of questions. So, you, in your opening remarks, talked about distribution. Actually, we are focusing a lot, and even in the last couple of calls you've been talking or last three, four calls you've been talking about. So at this point of time, is it possible to share some quantitative numbers in terms of how many deal wins are coming from, maybe in this quarter or in this H1, from the distribution partners, or in terms of value, anything that you can share? And out of the ones that you've been talking about, where you're very confident, or we are sort of moving quite forward in terms of getting the deals. Have they been, like, facilitated by the distribution strategy that we've gone? If you can share.
Yeah, I think, we will not be sharing the number because there are multiple partners get involved into a one, closing the deal. So giving a reference to some deal where there will be a GSI will be involved, there's a consulting partner will be involved, and there's a Microsoft or AWS will be involved. So all the three partners will be involved to create a trust circle with the customer. So sometimes it's a direct GSI who is becoming a front-end for me. Second time, he is becoming providing a comfort, which I have mentioned, that when you're in a new country and you have referenceability issue. The anchoring of the trust comes when the customer talks to one of the consulting partners, one of the GSI, one of the cloud scalers.
If they heard the name, it helps us out in winning the deal and providing the comfort. Because he loves the technology, but we are new in the market compared to the many other players. Like Temenos is thirty years old, or Infosys is thirty years old. We are new in the market. That's where this ecosystem is working. So we're not able to specify separate line item of distribution deals, but now they are playing on multi. The network effect is happening now.
So also, sir, I mean, so if I look at our business, and I've been tracking our company for some time now, almost seven, eight, six, seven years, or even more. So, sir, if I look at, let's say, over 2016 or 2017 till, let's say, 2023, we grew about 15% to 16% in terms of our revenue, even if I exclude GEM from that, right? And over this time, I mean, our core products have become mature. In the first journey, it was GTB, then GCB, and now even insurance and even wealth is getting. Again, geography-wise also, we are getting more and more traction in advanced markets. So forget the immediate issues where because of either GEM from the revenue base going away, with distribution tailwind also coming in and us getting more and more.
I mean, last four, five years, or as I said, six, seven years has been around 15%. If I take a longer-term view, three, four years, is it right to say that probably we will better that growth rate? Given, I mean, on the headwind side, there are issues in terms of geopolitics or slowdown, et cetera. So, I mean, how do you see that?
Hey, Rohit, I think very good. The way you put the question across is also very nicely, of 6-7-year traction, how we get it. And in spite of all those headwinds of Brexit and all those issues happened during the past, we can't predict that. But around 15-20% growth rate, I think we are all comfortable for next 3 to 5 years. Because this technology is available, which is meant for 20% growth rate. A specific year, specific quarter-
Sure.
We're not able to look at it. But, if you say 15% growth rate year on year for next four, five years, our margin growth will be 30, 30, 40% year on year.
Right.
EPS growth will be 30-40%, yeah.
Right. Sir, actually, that was my second question. I think I had asked this question in the last con call also. I think in the first question that Vivek asked, I think 20%, as you also said, 90, 20%, so we are anyway doing. And in the last call, I had asked that the journey towards closer to 30%, and you said six to eight quarters. And in this call, you're saying that maybe we'll have to invest, given the opportunity. So are you still confident that over six to eight quarters, we'll get to that 30%, or given the investment of $20 million, maybe there is some delay, or?
I think I'd not like to comment on it. I think let the time tell us that how the market will behave and what. We'll work it out. But you have seen some 5-6 years, so improvement can happen because it's all depend on license number. Our costs are now stabilized. INR 480 crore last year, last quarter it was INR 483 crore. This time it's INR 477 crore. So it's a six, total cost is six crore lesser than the last quarter. It may go maybe INR 490-500. If our revenue numbers goes to INR 650-660, 675, suddenly EBITDA number will be much higher. So all these are calculatable numbers for you, Rohit.
No, no, sir. Actually, my so of course license. I mean, obviously, if you win the deals, definitely that operating leverage will come. No, I was actually asking. I mean, from a cost point of view and from an investment point of view, that you said that-
Only sales investment are more there.
Okay.
Sales investment.
Ceteris paribus, I mean, assuming the deals, there is no delay, et cetera. I mean, that's a big assumption I'm taking. But in that journey, two-three, two-six to eight quarters or probably ten quarters, the margins you think... I don't want specific numbers. I'm just trying to see directionally we are getting towards that number or closer to 30% margins, or is that still-- I mean, given you are seeing more-
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely 30% margin directionally, three years from now, we are definitely there.
Closed on time, yes.
Definitely, directionally, we are 30% margin business, yeah. Otherwise, we should not be wasting time on this. So many of senior leadership is sitting here there.
Sure. No, no, absolutely, sir. And sir, this is one last question, actually, two, just, numerical questions.
Give a chance to somebody else here.
Sorry, sorry. Just, sir, one was that balance sheet-wise, I mean, post GA, post GeM, we thought our balance sheet will probably become slightly more better in terms of receivables and, unbilled revenues, et cetera.
Yes.
Is that cleanup has happened or yet to happen? I mean, in the sense, has that gone away from the balance sheet? And, if you can just give that. And second, I'll just quickly ask: Is it possible to share, revenue from advanced markets, broad number that we have, let's say, for the last twelve months? These are the two questions, sir. Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. We'll note it down, but GeM hangover is still there, yeah. There's a lot of money sitting-
Correct.
with the GeM kitty. So we'll, we'll park it that way, you know, government of India, where all the payments are. Now, since we are not even in the system, we are struggling on the money, the collection from there. So we have to go something different to collect that money. So that bucket we need to keep separate, and I, I'm suggesting CFO to publish non-GeM DSOs and collection, which is there. So that will make the balance sheet stronger.
Sir, advanced market revenue, if you can share broadly.
Yeah. Yeah. We will look at it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thanks.
All the best.
Thanks. Thanks, Rohit. Next, we have Mr. Harsh Jhanwar from Avendus PMS. Harsh, quickly, can you ask the question? Harsh, you are there?
Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Harsh Jhanwar?
Hello, good day.
From Avendus PMS. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Harsh.
Yeah, hi, my question is, I just have one question to Manish. Manish, in our strategy analysts meet one and a half years back, you mentioned the strategy where, you know, we'll be able to cross-sell more. So, but, in FY 2023, we product per customer was 2.9, which we were supposed to take to four per customer by FY 2026, and increase number of clients from 101 to 150, hence in the process, increasing market share from 2.9% to 6%. So where are we in that journey?
No, thank you very much for—Thank you for remembering, like I gave—I think the strategy remains same, the results remain same. I briefly mentioned that three out of four deals in the last quarter came from existing customers in cross-sell, and fourth was also somebody who had bought from me before in their previous roles and lives. So that continues to win. I will share that specific statistics more. What I'm feeling far better and more good, I would want to say, is those who are limited to the GTB portfolio. Now there's a lot more focus of all other products for Intellect with eMACH.ai. Our ability to execute and sell, and for the customers to consume because we are inbuilt in their environment, that is improving and that's what you will see a lot more success on.
Over the next three, four quarters, you will hear a lot more cross-sell of other products into this portfolio.
Understood. Thank you so much.
That's maybe one of the reasons we are saying we are bullish about Americas and Europe. AI is one enabler, this is second. We've established our proof point of our strength of core banking. The first one is difficult, but the number of wins on core banking, independently, we have also executed in Europe in the last few quarters, is further adding to, adding to that strength. So mainly-
Actually, the strategy, Manish, is we look at the strategy, first GTB, then GCB, then AI. Then we look at the strategy, first Asia, then Europe, then Americas. So U.S., we are only spending time just two years back. So it's a going step by step, and that's a very calibrated strategy for the investor with the way we are approaching the market. And that's how we prepared eMACH.ai to cater to the U.S. market, because U.S. is the mecca. If you have to be a billion-dollar company, U.S. has to give us $300 million from there.
Yep. And if you look at last two quarter results, we are seeing number of deals from U.S. You could go back and see, is that a significant number or not?
Hello, TK. Next?
Next...
Malik.
Yeah. Arun, next we have Mr. Rohit P. He's individual investor.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Like some of the other callers, I've been following the business for six or more years, and I mean, I had the luck to see the design center also. Mr. Malik had very kindly showed it to me. So my question is on the trajectory we are on in terms of distribution. I mean, in the earlier remark, your initial remark, you mentioned that we are in the phase where we can finally let go of implementation. And I mean, at least my study of various global leaders in the product space indicate that when they let go of implementation and focus on product development and selling primarily, that's when the growth really takes off.
Because, I mean, implementation is a large chunk of the work because you want to control the quality in the beginning, but once that is done and you trust others to do the implementation, the growth really takes off. So, could you give more details here in terms of what proportion of our business is self-implemented versus outsourced, and going forward over the next three-to-five years, where do you see this number going?
As of now, I think we are doing jointly with a partner. So when we are looking IBM or Accenture, we are working with them, alongside with them. So they also have a revenue, we also have a revenue from that. So there is one portion of that business. Our focus will be that in five years from now, we want to keep deep customer relationship ourselves. So that is a deep relationship, but we are talking about 35 accounts with $20 million potential each. Those accounts, we would like to see that there are deep relationship, there are deep margins are there. That strategy will be different from a normal product player, because we would like to add a strategic value to the client of those 35 accounts.
While the rest of the bank, which is thousand out of thousand banks, we are looking at it, and out of five hundred insurance company, we are looking at it, there, we are looking for the partnership expansion significantly. So that's a dual strategy over here, I would like to suggest to you. Percentages are too difficult right now to predict. Our target is 20% from partners. Revenue in next three years would be the good benchmark for us.
So when you say 20%, is it on the overall Intellect level?
Yeah, Intellect level, yeah.
Okay, thank you. That was helpful. So and the second question, see, I mean, again, as you indicated in this call, because we are not, we cannot easily talk to the customers in terms of the product that you're implementing, and because we are not part of the company itself, it becomes difficult to figure out the trajectory, and we always have to sort of wait for con calls and understand what is happening. So is there more metrics which gives us a better understanding? Because, I mean, I don't look at quarterly, but LTM angle, say, we have not done well this quarter, which is for temporary reasons, of course.
But, I mean, it is offset for the fact, as you said, that in many deals, because of the delay in closure, we are in the last two, last three level. So is there more details around that, that can be shared, which along with the numbers, gives us a more holistic picture of where we are at this point in time, in terms of number of deals where we're last two or last three? So is that something that is possible? Because otherwise, it gives us an incomplete picture, and we are not able to reach the right conclusions?
Yeah. Rohit, a lot of numbers we can't share just because competition is there. So the problem is that all the investor numbers are competition tracked. We have seen whatever you're sharing in investor conference are going to competition, and next time the strategy is changed. So we are very guarded right now, what should share, what not to share. We don't mind sharing with you, but the question is, it's a public domain.
Oh, understood, sir. Fair enough. Yeah, that's-
There's a lot of resources on how technical analysts are assessing us. They look at both qualitative feedback and assessment of products, as well as which is the best-selling product. So there's enough data points, third-party, which you can also access.
Yeah. Thank you, Manish, sir. I mean, fair enough, the analyst coverage reports are helpful for sure. And, sir, my last question, basically is, if I see over a la ... I mean, if you can help me with understanding over the last two, three years, we've talked about how we are reaching the deal ends, but we still have, let's say, seven wins this year, this quarter, five losses. So in general, how has been our win-loss ratio, and how has been our trajectory to reaching the last stage of different contracts over the last two, three years? Is that something that you could discuss in the call?
Not on the call. Let's see. That will be difficult to discuss. It's too many things are there in this loss win ratio. Sorry, Praveen, we are just running out of time, so if next, only one more investor is there.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Thank you. Thank you, Rohit. Arun, we are done with this, but there are only two repeat questions.
Thank you.
Can we take it or we can close it?
No, thank you, yeah. Why can't you send it to me?
Okay. Hi?
Happy Diwali to all the investors.
Okay.
So...
Yeah. Thank you, everybody. Vivek and Rahul, you can send your questions to me, then we'll take it forward from here and thank you, everybody, for attending the call today. Now we are closing it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Now you can log off.
Happy Diwali to everyone.
Happy Diwali to all!
Thank you.