Mr. Manish Maakan, Mr. Rajesh Saxena, Mr. Banesh Prabhu, Mr. Venkat Saranu, and Ms. Vasudha Subramaniam. Besides, some other senior members of the Intellect management team are present in the call. Mr. Arun Jain will brief you on the results, followed by a Q&A session, where your questions will be replied by the senior members of our management team. Once the Q&A start, you can ask the question by clicking on Raise Your Hand, and we will unmute you so that everybody is able to listen you. Once you harbor, I would like to remind you that anything which we say, which refers to our outlook for the future, is a forward-looking statement. This must be read in conjunction with the risk the company faces. With this, I request Arun to give his briefing. Over to you, Arun.
Thank you, Pradeep. Great privilege to talk to you, all of, all the investors this quarter. Last year, last quarter, we had a detailed presentation by all the business leaders, they shared their view of the future in detail with you. From GCB, Manish has shared the future, Rajesh shared the future, Banesh shared the potential of wealth and insurance, Rajesh on core banking, what competition. It was a detailed conversation the last quarter, this quarter, we don't want to get into the detailed conversation. We just want to do... Numbers are already there with you, you have gone through all the numbers, I'll not repeat any of those data points, which is already shared with you.
I'd like to share with you the thesis why we are doing what we are doing and what is our thesis of the belief in the banking technology industry. We believe the thesis was twofold thesis, which we shared from our technology day, 2 years back, I had a technology day with you, and that is, thesis is continuously getting strengthened and getting more and more sharper and more and more sensible. Based on the thesis, we looked at it that there's a BankTech Wave 5 is coming. Bank needs ultra-simplification of their technologies landscape. Banking world spends $600 billion, largest in space, and they were fixing bandaid solution versus taking the solution head-on. This is like in a auto, automobile sector, there's a wave of EVs, there's a wave of autonomous vehicle.
There's a wave of simplification of the technology, which we wanted to share last time with the business unit. We shared eMACH.ai as a fundamental demise of that new wave thinking. Fortunately, your company is positioned in the front line of the new technology wave. Once you are in the front line, you get a best attention from the customer to listen to you. In this, just to give you example, what eMACH.ai is there, so people are asking me the question, what eMACH.ai, what, why does it change? Let me just take you some few examples of it. Rajesh has taken the example of iKredit360 for research in previous meetings. What does it mean?
It means that a Resurs Bank in Sweden is chosen eMACH.ai technology, so that they can compose the credit businesses or credit product, the way they would like to cater to their customers. If they want to embed credit card along with lending or SME lending with something else, or with deposit and lending together, they can compose a solution. It's like a IKEA way of doing the business, where you have a components available, and you create your own object, what you want to deliver to the customer. That's what. eMACH, as each alphabet defines the way new wave will be working. New wave will working on microservices. It work on APIs. Microservices and API are two levers around which new wave is working, and for experiential learning, we create a wave called cloud and headless.
On cloud, we provide our technology, which a customer can consume it, and he can define the experience. Now, another example of the deal which we have done recently in this quarter, is a one of the largest bank in Asia Pacific. They've chosen our technology along with Accenture to create the experience. Their underlying technology of corporate banking will be us, payment technology will be us, and Accenture will be building the experience layer on the top of it. That gives a ability for bank to work on eMACH.ai. Similarly, one, another bank, OTP Bank, we have announced the deal. The context is OTP Bank is the largest bank in Eastern Europe. It's not only in Hungary, but there are 11 countries it's present there, and GCB, Rajesh Saxena, has won this deal. This was a stiff competition over the last 2 years.
We mentioned two years back that we are working on eMACH.ai, that with a certain European banks, this was one of those banks who decided to decide in our favor. It was a tough deal from Europe perspective, because Temenos is a local player in Europe for last 20 years. On other side, Thought Machine, where there is investment of more than $500 million investment invested in Google, they came as a competition. It was a three-leg race where we looked at it. Our core point was, on one side, we had a cutting-edge technology, like what Google can give, and we had a deep domain depth of the knowledge which Temenos or Finacle can give. That's the best of both world. We are in the front line of the new way of technology.
That is the 1 thesis which is resulted into the 5 deals from 5 different regions. Beauty is, we have 1 deal in Asia Pacific, second deal in Saudi Arabia, third deal in French bank, fourth deal in Eastern Europe, and fifth deal in USA. It means this wave is not localized to particular 1 country. It's, this wave is the way of simplification, and simplification is possible, which is driving value for the banks. Why the banks are getting benefited from this wave? Their operational costs can be reduced using Decision AI by 30%-40%. Their ability for targeting the right customer for the right product segment at the right pricing can be improved by 20%-30%. They can target right. The issue of the banking is whether you target right to the right customer for the right product.
That possibility of design using configuration is a second benefit banks get. Bank gets 20% benefit on the top line and 30% on the bottom line on operation cost, is an interesting proposition. Our focus moved towards distribution now. In Intellect 3.0, our focus become moving towards how do we get distribution partners? After IBM, now Accenture has looked at our technology, they evaluated it. It took a lot of time for them to evaluate it. Now, we won the first deal with them. It's a very big starting point for winning the deal with Accenture. This is the first thesis for what we believe that our growth journey, though banking and financial sector, is muted for all the service sector, we will believe that our journey of design around 20%, 15%-20%, is still intact for this year.
The second thesis which is there, which is that we went to the platform mode of design. We moved from product to platform to technology. That I shared with you in December 2021. I shared with you on Technology Day, too, that what is our technology we are embarking on? We shared in detail about the technology in detail. Some of the people trusted us, some of the people didn't trust us, resulted into... That technology shift of December 2021, we wanted some investments, we shared that we will be investing back our cash into generating this technology to create eMACH.ai. We invested extra money during 2022, and that resulted into drop of our EBITDA, which has been shared by some analysts, that we are losing steam.
It's, it's been interpreted in spite of sharing with all of you that for a good technology company, our purpose of our cash is not to acquire company. Purpose of our cash is to reinvest back whenever a big change is there. I think we couldn't able to provide enough confidence and trust in all of you. This is our mistake, that we couldn't able to provide that trust to all of you, that why such technology investments are there for future growth of the company. For that, in platform, the second thesis, what we looked at it, we invested into platform first and then product later. Once you build a platform, like we build up a AI platform, and AI platform has got multiple components, one data component and one document component.
These two pieces of the technology with close to 30-plus algorithms, we built this AI platform over the last seven years. The same platform we are leveraging for ESG, where Nordea Bank. What does Nordea Bank use for? Nordea Bank invest in 8,000-plus companies. They have a $1.3 trillion fund, and that fund, they want to look at it, the company which they invest in, having right ESG practices or not. ESG score they can get from anywhere, but to convert, to convert practices which is defined in some annual reports, some published documents, some websites, there's a huge amount of job to be extracted that information and aligned to the questions they have. They have close to 200 questions, their ESG analysts look at it, around which they evaluate the company.
Our same AI platforms is leveraged for that. Same platform is leveraged for Magic Invoice. Same platform is used for underwriting insurance, same platform is used for underwriting lending, same platform is used for supply chain finance and trade finance in iColumbus.ai. It's a 1 investment of platform which is resulting into 5 use cases. Similarly, we built up a platform, iTurmeric, no-code platform, where we can do the way data works, the way process works, the rule works, event works, APIs works, and UX work, and it's been leveraged for all the other products. I mentioned in the morning call to AGM that we invested over the last 8 years, close to 16 million person-hours.
16 million person-hours in U.S. context, at $80 per hour, which is an average rate of R&D dollars, which is invest, it's a $1.26 billion. No single player in the world has invested $1.26 billion in designing the technologies of the future, which Wave 5 or the bank is looking for. That is the thesis what we have. Obviously, India is underdog, and India doesn't believe that we can do something in product business. Today, when we look at competition in GCB space, where Thought Machine and Temenos are the two leaders, we are able to displace them in a large deal in Eastern Europe.
It may be very insignificant in revenue terms in the quarter, it's so important in sending the message that Wave 5 player, who is in the frontline leader in the Wave 5. The next message is around our cash generation capability from an investor perspective, our EPS or cash generation, I think both are healthy. EBITDA margins are healthy. We were looking at a 5% investment. We come back onto the same margin levels what we were invested back. Our investment are now behind us. They're not behind us, that we are not less investing into the company, in percentage terms, they are lower than the existing one. We recommend strongly that quarter on quarter, we cannot meet your expectations. I want to tell you upfront that we cannot meet the expectation investor on quarter on quarter.
This is a technology business, it's a long race of 3-5 years, where the leadership will be defined. This market size is so huge that it's will require the continuous investments, but our investments are very, very calibrated. We have not increased our calibration from INR 140 crore, we commit. We told you last capital, that we'll be investing INR 140 crore in a capitalization. We invested INR 136 crore instead of INR 140 crore last year. All the parameter what are you mentioning, I think that is important for you to record and look at it, that we can be monitored on LTM basis. LTM from last nine quarters are more than 15%-20%. We are able to grow from last continuous nine quarters.
When somebody says last two quarters are bad, it is only from investor perspective, the last two quarters are bad because the deals were there already. It's only when the deal get executed and comes to the solution, and this deal has a large value. That's the point I just want to make in a commentary over here. With this, this bank of assets, we save right kind of talent. In AGM speech, I mentioned about it. 35% of workforce is more than 10, 10 years experience. 16% of the employee hold RSU in the company. There, 57 country our footprint is there, out of which 10 countries we have chosen to go deep. We have a partnership of Accenture, IBM, and more people are lining it up with eMACH.ai technology. We have a big partnership with Azure and AWS.
We have a top customers in each geography. Top 9 customer of Middle East, top 6 customer of Europe out of 10, top 4 out of 10 in Americas, top 9 out of 10 in India. top 5 out of 10 in Asia Pacific. There's no single company with a footprint from ANZ and Asia Pacific to Americas, and where we are showing the example of our bullseye on AI and composable and contextual technology, which is driven by design thinking, composability, contextuality, and D minus 3 OT. This is a commentary. I would leave it now for the question and answer session, so that you have enough time for asking question to me, Rajesh, Manish, Banesh.
All four of us can answer the question, besides financial question can be answered by Vasudha and Saru. Over to question and answer session.
Thank you, Arun. Now, in case you want to ask a question, please click on Raise Your Hand. In case you want to ask a question, please click on Raise Your Hand. Please click on Raise Your Hand. First question is coming from Mr. Mohit Jain from Anand Rathi Securities.
Mohit,
Please unmute.
Unmute himself.
Please unmute, Mohit, Mohit?
Yes, I can hear you. I can... Sir, first of all, congratulations on a good quarter. Then I have three questions. One is, average size of deal in the highest bracket that you report, it looks like that we are not capturing-... that deal with information, correctly as an outsider. Is there a change in the average size of the deals over the last one year or so?
Mm-hmm. Okay.
That is one.
Then I have a follow-up on GEM impact, essentially, on the working capital. Revenue you have already told us.
On the working capital, what should we expect, in, in FY 2025, when the contract comes off? Should we see this rapid decrease in receivables, or do you think there could be some other assignments as well?
Mm-hmm. Okay, third question.
Third is on capitalization, so it was more accounting things I thought I will ask separately. That is related to, should we see some increase now that you're developing these new tools and tech, in terms of capitalization over the next 2 years or overall R&D spend? Do you think current rate is good enough for us to sort of come out with products regularly?
Let me take average size of the deal. I think the. We can't calculate like, the amount of average sales of deal fundamentally, because deals are varying from 3 years to 5 years to 7 years, when the contracts are getting signed. Though every deal which we sign is relevant for 15 years, but accounting-wise, it's based on the number of years we co-sign the contract, and those contracts sign depending on the client to client. That's one area which we are not able to be accurately measure. It's only a very indicatively measure of the average deal.
Directionally, directionally, if you can help, like, how much it would have gone up? At least the highest bracket, the INR 50 crore and above one.
Yeah. The deal values can be like RBI was above INR 500 crore, a single deal. Some deals are more than INR 200 crore, deals are there. Those are the deal sizes which are on large size deals can go up to $30 million-$100 million. Hundred million dollars we are not cross right now, but we are in dialogue with few deals which could be $100 million deals. On average size. Second question, GEM working capital, obviously it will improve. We have a substantial amount is sitting as a receivable, and the number of days will improve as we go into the working capital of GEM. As well as, basically, we mentioned in our press release, that's a single digit profit business, so it will impact the top line after four, quarter four will have an impact on the top line.
We don't see the significant impact in bottom line. Some impact will be there, but not significant.
Sir, going ahead, international DSO, the way you disclose in the PPT.
we should gradually approach towards that, or do you think?
That's right.
there will still be... That's right. That's a fair assumption.
It will, it will be towards international. Third thing is capitalization. I, we don't have- see any, as of now, the budget planning we have done for capitalization for R&D, we are in line of close to INR 140 crore. It's less than $20 million. Normally, our budget used to be $20 million, which means INR 160 crore, but we'll be spending $17.5 million for this year. As of now, that is our budgeted section. We will stick to that. We have not deviated it from last 5 years, anything in capitalization.
Okay. Perfect, sir. If I can, it is a repeat question, but if I can have a follow-up. Like, is there any difference now? Our licenses sort of has caught up, in terms of growth over the last 2 quarters. Earlier we saw this trend where license revenues, growth contribution was little lower, while SaaS was picking up quite fast. Last time you told me that now clients are not differentiating much. Is there a change in scenario there, or do you think license SaaS could go hand in hand at similar growth rates?
I think compare license link revenue again, from our viewpoint, it's a customer choice to choose pay a upfront license or SaaS. We don't want to differentiate. We want to give flexibility to the customer, what they want to choose. Whether SaaS, SaaS is more profitable for us for the long, long-term cycle, but if some customer of Europe wants to look at SaaS, sorry, license, upfront money, it's good for us, too. We want to see how much is the license link revenue. If license link revenue over the last LTM basis, we have close to INR 1,013 crore, sorry, we have close to INR 1,200 crore of license link revenue. That is the most important figure for you to look at it, whether it comes from AMC, whether it comes from direct license sale, whether it comes from SaaS, we are open to that.
We are, we are not following terminal policy that we only want to do SaaS business. We don't want to follow that.
Okay. Your guidance, growth guidance of 20%, we should look at it adjusted for GEM or?
Yeah, that's right. We need to look at adjusted for GEM.
Adjusted for-
15%-15%, 15 to, 15% you can look at it. Some decisions may be slow or fast. 15%-20%, anything.
Perfect, sir. Thank you and all the best. Venkat, sir, congratulations on your new role.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks, Mohit. Next, we have Mr. Vivek Choraria . Vivek, please unmute yourself and ask your question.
Sir, able to hear me, sir?
Yeah, yeah, Vivek. Please go on. Yes, Vivek, please go on.
Are you able to hear me? Am I audible?
Yes.
Yes.
Last con call.
Yes.
You mentioned about, concentrating on India and, putting more focus on India. Can you throw more light on, how our products are gaining traction in India, and which products are gaining?
... Yeah, so I, I didn't mention that we are focusing on India. We are saying we are a global player, and we are looking all the countries, and 5Gs are representative of all the region requiring eMACH.ai technology. India is also among the largest financial engine which is growing today. All the Indian banks are showing a tremendous amount of growth in double-digit and high double-digit. There's growth which is happening, and they are now adapting to the new technology and cloud technologies. The eMACH.ai is the right positioning, whether it's a top banks, public sector banks or private sector banks. I don't want to name individual bank over here, but most of the banks are nine out of the 10 banks are our customers, so they are investing into new technology space.
Sir, in your annual report, you also mentioned that Lakshya 3 you have done and there's accelerated growth in the next 3-5 years. I'm not asking the growth rate, but which products and what, when I say accelerated, is it about SaaS growth or is it platforms maturing? Where is the confidence coming from, and what, what products in our platforms are, are giving us the indication and which we can find in the next 3-5 years?
I think, we, we are looking composable and contextual, so we change the style from product to technology company. The, what products are giving attraction is about core banking when you have to look at it. Deposits, we are looking at it. Lending, we are looking at it. Wealth, we are looking at it. Cash management, payments, liquidity, trade and supply chain finance, central banking solution, insurance, underwriting solutions. Today, all these solutions have matured to the level we have in index called Product Maturity Index, which is at 1,300 point scores. Today, almost, 9 out of the 14 products are crossing 1,100 mark. They are suitable for the market, and they build on the same architecture called eMACH.ai, so that they can buy it.
If somebody wants to buy lending and wealth, they can do the buying of this product, which nobody else can give it to the market. This is a new wave of delivery, new wave of... It's autonomous banking here. I, I don't have a better word for it, but, something you can compare to TATA Elxsi or what they are trying to position themselves as autonomous vehicle management. That kind of technology we are built upon.
Sir, thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you, Vivek. Next, we have Sugandhi Sud from InCred. Sugandhi, please unmute yourself and ask the question.
Yeah, on your mic-
Hi. Hi, am I audible?
Yeah.
Yes, Sugandhi, please go on.
Congratulations on the results. I just wanted to understand, you know, you highlighted your eMACH.ai wins in terms of platform revenues. Quarter-over-quarter, there's a strong uptick. There is no significant change in the volume of the GEM contract, and there's no lumpiness there on account, and most of this is coming from new client wins. Just wanted to clarify that.
As I mentioned, don't look at platform, look at licensing revenue. There will be lumpiness will be there in platform versus license. Depending on which deal goes into which bucket, there will be lumpiness. Internally, what we are monitoring and giving a credit to our salespeople is that, whether you have to do sales revenue or license revenue, all money are green. We love green, green color.
Sure. In terms of the phase out of the GEM contract, you know, will it be, you know, done on a, in a straight line manner over the course of the year? How, you know, should we expect it to be lower this year and then completely disappear next year? Is it going to be similar to last year, and then, you know, the major impact will come in FY 2025?
As of now, it's up to December, so Q4, we could see an impact. Still, it's too early to say, just the transition has just started, and let's see how the transition is progressing.
In terms of the receivables, you know, there will be contract milestones and all. Will they run beyond the maturity of the contract, or, is there we can expect that most of those would get cleared, you know, towards the end of the engagement?
You can't say anything about government here. We love to have it, everything coming as.
Do you, you don't see any, any incremental stress on account, of, on, on account, on this account? I mean,
In the past, you know, I mean, just looking at your, you know, provisions, your provisions that you do, for your, you know, receivables and your unbilled. For your unbilled, the provisions has slightly trended up, but, you know, you don't see any incremental pressure...
No, we cannot see any incremental pressure. It's the same, same pattern we have. We do some provisions every quarter on the provision, so that future risks. We are taking conservative approach of providing-
appropriate number or slightly higher than the appropriate number for provision. They can be, some point in time, they could be right back as required, but as of now, we are not... We want to remain the same policy of provision.
Sure, sir. I just wanted to, you know, cross-check. You are guiding for 15%-20% growth this year?
Yeah.
That's helpful. Thank you. I'll just get back in the queue.
Thanks, Sugandhi. Next, we have Mr. Anil Sarin.
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I have three questions. First, if I look at your history last 10-15 years, we have launched many products, and some of the few products have been successful in reaching stage 5. Many other products, like, say, treasury, wealth, brokerage, insurance, are still in stage 3. What I want to understand is, what are the conditions required to reach for a product to reach stage 3, or we ourself take some conscious decision that this product is suitable to reach stage 3? What exactly is that? That is the first question. The second question is: in the past, we guided that we soon will enter USA for core banking product, but it has not entered.
Obviously, you have taken some conscious decision that it is not the right time, or we are not prepared, or the competition is, or whatever it is. Just want to understand, what are, what are the conditions that should be met that before we launch our core banking product in the USA? The last question is, I think in the Technology Day, too, you spoke about iKredit360 being launched in UK and Germany. What's the progress there? How are we getting the success there? Those are the three questions. Thank you.
First of all, thank you very much for your tracking every conversation and recording all of it to follow it up on. For stage 3 to stage 5 products, we had discussed with you, very consciously we take 2, 3 products at a time and move them to stage 4 and stage 5, because investment, go-to-market investment. Normally people believe that product investments are product investments are INR 100 and go-to-market may be INR 40 or INR 50. Our learning in last 5 years is if I'm, if I'm investing INR 100 for engineering, then I have to invest INR 200 for go-to-market. That is where what defines my stage 2 to stage 5, which based on the market potential, time on the market and investment we are making towards making that a leadership product.
Now, treasury and brokerage was now in a phase three of our phase right now. This year we are taking this product maybe, but brokerage we are not taking forward as a product, but our other portfolio, which is too big in size, core banking, lending, trade card, central banking, wealth, liquidity, DTB, digital transaction banking. I think our basket is too big a basket for us to look at, to worry about treasury or brokerage as a product. We looked at it. We don't see that there any barrier for our next three to five years growth in there. About second question on U.S. for core banking, I don't think I ever mentioned about that we want to go U.S. for core banking. We said we want to be looking banking in U.S. Our U.S. market strategy is around insurance underwriting.
That is our core strategy for the US and GTB product, which is a DTB or liquidity, is a strategy for the US. We are on track of it. We suffered 2 losses last 2 quarters. The 2 banks which have gone down are... both of places we lost substantial sales traction. We had deals in both the banks. Both of these got delayed for... 1 deal has completely gone, Silicon Valley Bank, completely gone. Those deals would have been few millions U.S. dollars of deals which could have been there. Similarly, FRB, we were looking for a complete digital transformation for FRB. They have already selected us. It was on, almost on a paper.
-signing a paper. We lost two traction in U.S. on that bank. That's the update on U.S., but not, it was not related to core banking. We believe that core banking is a great opportunity in U.S., but we need to prepare ourselves. As of now, we are seeing a lot of opportunity on core banking in Europe with OTP Bank signing it up, and our focus is more on that side. We are spending more time. We hired a president for Germany, Keith Pearson . He will be moving to Germany in month of August. Rajesh is focusing on iKredit360 for Europe itself. Thank you for asking detailed question.
Thank you.
Thank you, Anil. Next, we have Mr. Nimish Shah. Next, we have Mr. Nimish Shah. Please unmute him.
Yeah. Am I audible, sir?
Yeah, please go on.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations on good numbers. Sir, in your opening remarks, you mentioned that now you are at a phase where you start looking to add distribution partners, and you have already partnered with IBM and Accenture. Just want to understand, how will this impact our implementation revenues going forward? The, we've always maintained that over a longer term period, we, the business has been designed for 20% growth. Just want to understand, is this, is this growth is for the company as a whole or for the licensing revenue for us?
This is company as a whole. Obviously, when you are choosing a partnership network, some implementation revenue can be available for the partner to succeed. That's definitely... Let's keep the size of the pie increase substantially. Manish, you want to answer?
No, Arun, that's the answer. Wherever we've got the system integrators involved, actually, the pie has gone up 5x almost, and we get more money through those, because this is not just at that stage automation of the existing system, it's a much larger digital transformation where they look at a customer impact, the customer growth, the operational simplification. The value added is also at a different order, so the customer is willing to pay that in.
Right. Does this change our margin profile in any manner?
It will.
Positively.
Okay. Any, any, some directional sense, sir?
I don't know if it's early to communicate, but I think it will impact because license revenue goes up and the margin obviously will go up. As license revenue goes, margin will go up.
I think the positive sign is, number of these large partners are willing to work with us, enabled by, like Arun called out, eMACH.ai. They look at the technology, they look at our footprint and the customer trust and analyst endorsements given to us, and then they look at, especially the technology enablement, extensibility, composability, that makes the magic potion happen. We are referenceable, we are extendable, we are composable. Now the partnership, we've always said the indirect distribution will help us grow to the next order, so we're taking those early steps and building that. We don't want to just run through it and blow ourselves up. We want to design it for right scale and deliver, then once we hit the scale, we don't have bumps.
Understood. Yeah, that's it from my side. Thank you.
Thanks, Nimish. In case you want to ask a question, please click on Raise Hand. Please click on Raise Hand. Next, we have Mr. Amit Chandra. Amit, please unmute yourself and ask your question.
Yeah, I'm audible?
Yes, Amit. Please go on.
Yeah. Hi, sir, thanks for the opportunity. My question is on this, on the funnel that you have shown. There is, you know, quite a significant improvement in terms of the funnel for the year, wherein the number of deals and the total number of definite deals have also increased. Is this increase, you know, because of we have, we have been seeing, like, delays in decision-making in terms of deals, or is it, is it because, you know, there is higher spending from our existing set of clients? Also, if you can, you know, if you, if, if you can break this funnel in terms of, you know, how is the mix, you know, between transaction core and also the, like, newer products, you know, that we have launched.
Just to understand the funnel better.
Amit, it's difficult for you to understand funnel because we don't understand the funnel so well. The question is that it's so much of a cycle time, so much variables are there in the funnel, that it's difficult to capture the texture of the funnel. We give an indicative number to you right now. The market size is a $600 billion market, which IT spend happen. How much will they get translate to new Wave 5? The new Wave 5 will tell. Now, if you say how much petrol vehicle will convert to EV, time will tell how much it will be. Everybody will make some projections that how much it will be. Market is not a limitation. Limitation is our delivery capacity. That's why the partners will play a very critical role in distribution in coming months.
The current funnel is indicative, it's growing positively. Our lead generation engine is growing. We had close to 15 workshops, detailed workshop with the clients on eMACH.ai. We are trying to understand what does a new wave means for them. We are having of this workshop in Seattle with AWS. We are going to have a workshop with Microsoft in Seattle around this. We have a workshop with Accenture in New York with, around eMACH.ai. We have close to 25 more workshops lined up in next, till before 30th September. It's a exciting number, we don't know how to quantify this number as of now, but it's a exciting time to look at it, and that's why I don't want to put, put some color to the this funnel right now, Amit.
Okay, sir, and in, in terms of what is the confidence, in terms of eMACH.ai, in terms of the acceptability that, it will have in the industry, because it seems to be a quite an exciting product, but, can it reach, you know, the kind of success that we have received in, say, you know, our, our traditional transaction banking kind of products, which are very mature and, are contributing, or they are in the maturity phase and, like, in the, in the monetization phase?
How, how, how we see the growth in eMACH.ai and also, from the, you know, perspective of the partnerships, we have been trying to scale up our revenues from the partnership, you know, ecosystem, but, you know, we have not seen, you know, a lot of success there over the last, like, few years. I don't know how it has changed now, but, you know, from the perspective of eMACH.ai, what kind of growth you are seeing from there? What is, you know, how we are, you know, like, dealing with the, you know, partners now versus earlier?
Amit, you're saying your trust in the... We never mentioned that we are ready for partners. We always say that we want to do our implementation unless our product will be partner-ready products.... eMACH.ai provides me the partner-ready products. We started focusing 18 months back around the partnership. Before that, we were not even hired a head of partnerships. Only Kannan, Kannan Ramaswamy joined us here. Only 18 months back, he joined us. We are- it's not that we are not successful in partnership, we've not chosen the partnership as a distribution lever till the time we are ready for a partner-ready product. That's the first point we, I want to clarify, that it's not that we are not successful in partnership.
It's not that we are, we didn't make a choice to go to the partnership, because we want to establish our referencability of the customer base, and that is a part of chosen strategy since 2018, Amit. I always explained that first phase of our growth will be only ourselves, so that we can ensure our referencability is available. We don't want to take a risk with the partner for screwing of the customer relationships. That's the first and foremost we want to highlight to you about the partnership that we are choosing now. We will not be choosing many partners. We will not be celebrating more is more. We want to celebrate less is more. We want to have few partners, but deep relationship with the partners. We'll be committing the deep relationship over there.
The second question you asked about, what is the second question?
eMACH.ai
Yeah. eMACH.ai is a way, is a new architectural form. It's not that DTB, Digital Transaction Banking, liquidity. This, all these products which are there, wealth product is there, which Banesh is top there for wealth force. They are all now moved to the Intellect 3.0 journey, where everybody has a microservices. We have 285 microservices. DTB has to move in the next phase of investment, which we made last year, is to move them to microservices-based architecture. Since they have moved to microservices-based architecture, eMACH.ai is a common platform which is getting expressed in itself to construct DTB solution, liquidity solution, trade finance solution, supply chain solution, core banking solution. Each solution can be designed, and we are giving the flexibility of customer, how he wants to design it.
That's what the new wave of technology is all about. Rajesh, if you want to add anything to that?
No, sure. I think, I, I think you said it well, Arun. I think the eMACH.ai gives us the architecture and the, and it stands for event, APIs, microservices, cloud and headless. That's the way all our platforms are constructed, so that the banking can become completely composable. You know, we talked a little bit about what we are seeing. Let me take an example of, let's say, Europe. What are we seeing in Europe? In Europe, we are seeing a good, good traction in the core banking space, and what the customers are looking for is really a composable solution. Our eMACH.ai architecture, along with our iTurmeric platform, gives us that edge, and that's what is, is what we are seeing as a traction in the market.
Also, also, like, Rajesh, if you can comment, on the competing products which are there in the market, which, you know, which you see as a competition to eMACH.ai.
Yeah. I think the way I see competition, and let me put this in the context of core banking space. Core banking traditionally, we have seen competition from players like Temenos, FlexCube, Finacle, et cetera. Then there are new-age players, like Thought Machine and Mambu. Thought Machine and Mambu come with an architecture, and what Temenos and FlexCube and Finacle would come would be the domain, the, the, the depth in the product. Intellect has the great advantage that we have the depth as well as, as well as the architecture of these new platforms. That's why, for example, we talked about this OTP deal.
This OTP deal that we won against, Temenos and Thought Machine, was really because of both our architecture as well as the depth that we have, and that's what is resonating in the market.
Okay. Like, Arun sir, I know my last question is on the, on the, you know, the GEM project. Obviously, you know, the GEM project will be there till December, in terms of the bids that, you know, came up for the, you know, project were, you know, substantially low, you know, in terms of what you were operating at. Now, how, how do you see that? Also in terms of our receivables, I know what part of our receivables is, you know, from GEM?
GEM is substantial receivable, you mentioned earlier, so that should cover it up. Second is, at TCS Value, I think we will not be doing that business yet. We don't want to be in loss-making business for... We don't see if TCS can make money on it, if they want to benefit their heart, their joy of serving the government. We have served the government for 45 years. It's a national project we have taken to solve the national problem. GEM is now no regret for us. GEM is cleaning it up our eMACH.ai interest. I would have expected some investor to ask question on AI.
I thought AI is a hot topic right now, AI, the kind of a capability what Banesh has built for AI is phenomenal, and that is not coming out as a separate space, which we are differentiating along with the, the composability. That, that space is a contextuality in operation space. This is a Decision AI. Decision AI is very different from Information AI. When you talk about ChatGPT, it's an Information AI. You can't use for any business decision from ChatGPT. You can only take some information, and converting information to knowledge and knowledge to decision is a three-step process of the AI. Our 7 years investment in AI is, if you separate the AI company, it should be most valuable company in a global marketplace from that perspective.
This is where AI platform, which I mentioned in the beginning, the fabric platform on AI, that platform I described in eMACH.ai substantially. That is giving an entire boost to the entire all the product lines.
Also, if, you know, you mentioned about the AI thing, so are we selling, AI as a separate capability, or are we embedding AI into our existing, existing production platforms?
Yeah, we are selling a separate product like Magic ESG. It's a separate product on ESG, with Nordea Bank, $1.8 trillion, $1.3 trillion fund management. It's a separate product, Manish can highlight more on that.
Yeah. I'll, I'll... You know, thanks for that question. Let me sort of explain it in two different ways. One is eMACH.ai. We heard a lot about eMACH. I think the combination of eMACH.ai, that is the architecture along with the AI intelligence, is embedding this intelligence into our product lines in a way in which the customer can actually achieve a much higher level of AI implementation, whether it is in hyperautomation or in, you know, personalization. I think, for example, I'll give you a wealth perspective, right? From wealth, and as you probably have already heard, we won a award for, you know, for the most exceptional usage of AI across Pan-Asia , which covers Asia and India, from the WealthBriefing Awards.
One of the interesting things is, MACH gives you the composability that, you know, Arun mentioned, of being able to compose for different segments, different product capabilities. For example, you know, we've just recently gone live with one of the largest private banks in India. They are using wealth for, this first part of the, you know, the launch is about mass affluent wealth. Now, clearly, we all know that the penetration of mutual funds in India is growing significantly. How do they actually provide a technology architecture? By the way, this architecture is on the cloud, it's on AWS. The scale is very large.
The ability to actually consume our eMACH architecture for wealth, along with the AI components that can actually make a difference to seamlessly deliver either a do-it-yourself capability or a very personalized capability for the customer, is one sort of example of how we can actually consume for different segments, whether it's mass wealth, whether it's ultra high net worth or private bank. The architecture gives them the power to be able to consume for different clients, different products, and different capabilities and experiences. Some of them are driven by financial advisors or relationship managers, some are just do-it-yourself. I think that's the power of that combination of intelligence embedded in what we would sort of say, embedded AI for wealth. Similarly, in the U.S. insurance, the underwriting insurance, you know, recently Gartner had a underwriting...
They don't have a quadrant for underwriting, but they have a very detailed paper on underwriting. Intellect Design came out as probably the best digital engineered underwriting platform for, you know, using AI. There, we embed data in such a way that the underwriter can actually improve his speed and decision-making quality, and therefore we've embedded AI into the underwriting workbench. Not only is it operationally efficient, but more importantly, it's, it brings intelligence actually into the product, for different lines of insurance business. AI coming together, it's at a good point, AI, today in the market, where it can be a huge difference to improve both operational efficiency as well as helping the client achieve, you know, revenue targets and compete more efficiently with their own competitors.
Thank you. That was quite helpful. Thank you.
Thank you, Amit. Next, we have Mr. Rahul Jain from Dolat Capital. Rahul, please unmute yourself and speak.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Firstly, my question is, if you look at, you know, the commentary that we hear from a lot of services companies, regarding the spend cuts and discretionary cuts by by the banks versus what we see, in our case, for software companies, the view is quite divergent. My two questions here: One, is it that banks now finally realize the importance of investing into core technology, which is keeping this as a priority aspect for them right now?
Is it also a function of we being more present across global market, which mean that our exposure to more troubled economies are less, and that's why it reflects into a better growth for us, while services businesses are more concentrated to two or three markets which are in pain?
Very good, Ra- Rahul. Yes, it's pointing the right thing. A lot of the IT spend, which has gone up in last 3 years, which was disproportionate increase happened in last 3 years, was unnatural. This was, to me, I mentioned to, in one other call, it was like a band-aid digital. You do the digital, which looks nice on the face of it- like a face makeup, but you don't make a change in the structural digital. The structural digital, you need to make a change in data design, you need to make a change in a data layers, you need to make a change in a product layer, you need to make a change in a process layer. All have to go together.
Your question is that when COVID happened and everybody want to sit from home, they did a very quick and dirty solution, and they wanted hundreds and hundreds of people to solve that problem. It's a good for Indian companies that we made a lot of money out of this problem statement of band-aid digital. Band-aid digital to structural digital, which Manish was mentioning, structural digital, when the deal which we won in Asia Pacific Bank with Accenture, that's a structural change. They are looking from a business transformation to digital transformation, to the data transformation. All three come together, that is the deal value multiplies 5x compared to the band-aid solution, where the deal value is limited to 1x. That's the right analysis you have done, Rahul, that now bank, for Wi-Fi, they don't have an option.
Like electric vehicle, there's no option for any, all of us not to go to electric vehicle. When we make a decision, it's our choice.
Right. Right. Thanks for the clarification. Secondly, from a from a market perspective, do you think India being now becoming very center stage from a global demand point of view, in many, many industries, do you think that would be true for your business as well? If yes, then what's the strategy out there?
In what context, Rahul, the industry context?
I mean, Yeah, even if you look at what's happening or what kind of a credit proliferation is what the regulator is now pulling into the UPI ecosystem or, you know, small, you know, consumer loans or banking, done bank, data-based collateral. These kind of things are now coming where lot of NBFCs and banks are getting into the digital solutions with the lending partner, partnering the lending, or fintechs rather. One side of the story is where, you know, these companies which simply partner with fintech to distribute their lending solution or BNPL solution.
The other aspect of the story would be where, banks would try to modernize their solution and try to do it directly, like what possibly Bajaj is doing in India. From that context, you think credit being a center stage aspect in India is that leading to a lot of opportunity here?
Yeah, that's true. I think there are two things are there, Rahul. I think this is the question where we are undermining the security issue of the banking solution. When you take a fintech player, a lot of people are still in India, like HSBC Bank or ICICI Bank, will take a holistic decision of buying the right solution at the right pricing. Today, still India, NBFCs are not investing sufficiently on the cloud technologies. They are not investing into structural changes, and security is a so complex a topic, in email or AI world, that we are undermining the investment which required in. There are almost 170 elements are there in security architecture, how you wire the security along with the transactional work which you do. That's where, still I would say India will go through two phases of investment.
One phase will investment as a band-aid solution, and then the second phase will happen in structural solution.
Okay. At best, we will see the first, the band-aid one, where our software companies would have limited participation, but then we may have a larger piece of the cake eventually.
Eventually.
Yeah.
The last piece from my side, which is related to wage or any other investment, if you want to say that, from the current base, what are the investment required for this part of the later part of this year in terms of wage correction or people investment or any other investment from a cost point?
Yeah, fortunately, we, because software industry is in trouble, we are beneficiary of that, so we don't spend so much on that particular thing. On other side, on investment side, just not, just to not to take it lightly, your question is that how much is the forecast on the cost structures? Cost structures are stable now. Last year, our cost structures become unstable, because of COVID time and the industry issue which had happened. Our investment will be distribution. Our focus is three Ds, distribution, distribution, distribution. That's what we are now looking at it and spending time on it. We are in, our management team is in the US, starting from Monday. Manish is sitting in New York right now. Our focus is deeply on distribution right now.
Right. And this increment, if what or maybe whatever correction needs to happen, is already baked into the current costs run rate at this point?
At this point of time, yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Okay, that's it from my side. Congratulations to Venkat for the new role and also, congrats, Vasudha, for, for this position. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Rahul.
Thank you, Rahul. Next, we have Mr. Narendra.... Mr. Anand, you are there? Anand? Okay, he's not there. I think he's left, looks like. Arun, we have only the two follow-up questions, there's no, no new question. Can we take them?
Okay.
It is fine, because.
Yeah. Mr. Amit Shriram ?
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity once again. I have, again, 2 questions. First, I understand existing customer base accounts for almost 80% of your revenues. What I want to understand is what happens at the time of renewable. How easy this renewable are, or again, we have to go through the RFP or other things? To put in another way, how easy or difficult is for your customers to switch to another vendor, and, what are we doing to make these customers more sticky? That is the first question. The second question is, around 2021, we spoke about cross-sell opportunities that we will go deep in the top 10% of the clients. What's the progress here? Thank you. That's the 2 question.
Manish, would you like to answer?
I think, like Arun briefly shared, we are tracking the top 10 banks in each of the markets. We today have top four of the 10 American banks, top seven of the 10 European banks, top seven of the 10 Middle East African banks, top nine out of 10 in India, five out of 10 in... There's consistent focus right now to be able to do cross-sell of each of our products. Difference between us and some of the other vendors is, those term contracts, our renewal goes in, the, because they are not they are just selling the license and they get away, and they're not partnering in the transformation of the bank and the growth of the bank. That's when the RFPs kick in.
We've consistently been sharing, we are regularly upgrading our products and capabilities with our customers, so we face less challenge from that perspective. There are sometimes you have, from a procurement process, there's an closed bid done just to ensure that compliance processes are taken care of. Our journey is to be with long-term for customers. It's a 15, 20, 25-year journey. We've last time also shown some of our customers the lifetime revenue be coming from that. It is always consistently keep investing in customer success. You don't when the moment comes to renew the contract, you're not then letting procurement take over, it's an extension of what you're doing.
Okay.
Okay, Anand? Okay, Anand, thank you so much.
Got it. Thank you. That's it.
We have a follow-up question from Vivek Turaga. Vivek, quickly, can you ask the question?
Yes, sir. My question is on the U.S. Last year, Arun Jain said, "We have lost two deals," and, given the current conditions, do you expect the similar growth rate like last year, like greater 50%? How is the outlook on that, both the time to deal closure and also the insurance partner, Intellect AI partner, which you were very positive last year? Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
We are as positive on IntellectAI is more positive on IntellectAI on U.S. growth. U.S., because of the setback of these 2 deals, we are looking North America as a market, Manish looks at Canada and U.S. together. Combined market, we have a good potential, and U.S., we won 1 deal. At least the year has started very well in U.S.
Canadian banks, Canadian banks are reasonably well, and we've just announced that for one of the large Canadian banks, the US piece of business. We, we were doing the Canadian, now we're doing the US side of it also, so.
The deal, things are not like... Because last quarter, because of that SVB crisis, you were more unclear, so I was just trying to understand the outlook.
We did lose 2 deals. SVB, First Republic has become JP Morgan. We were doing some work for First Republic. It has gone into becoming JP Morgan. We're running that platform. We were already working with JP Morgan before. It gets our relationship. The pop side is our relationship with JP has become a little better, bigger, sorry. The commercial revenue loss on these 2 large deals would have given us another bump in this quarter. That's the game we all play, managing risk and portfolio. I think as compared to some of the other software service providers you're seeing, their dependence on U.S. is very high. We've always, Arun's always talked of a portfolio which is balanced across products as well as markets. That hedges us from these seasonalities.
It does give us a bump on the road, but it doesn't create a panic that I have to stop hiring, I have to get rid of people, I have to create panic.
Got it. Intellect AI will grow 50%, like you said last year, sir, this year also? Last question, so,
It's growing substantially. How much become in the books of account because Intellect AI business comes as a SaaS model, so it's not come on a monthly basis. Deal sizes are increasing. We are getting a even double-digit million-dollar deals in Intellect business, which will be, we are at least 7, 8 deals are there, which is the double-digit millions of dollars, $10 million-$20 million deals over the next 5 years, DOC value, TCO value of the deal. Those deals we are now getting Intellect AI. How much will be translated? That is, that will come between 15%-20%.
Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
Okay. Thank you, Vivek.
Thank you, Vivek. Arun, can we close the call now?
Please, please close.
Thank you all the participants who are participating today. In case you have any follow-up questions, please do write to us or call us, we, we'll reply the same. Thank you very much. Now we can log off. Thank you.