Q4 21/22

May 23, 2022

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the C.E. Info Systems Limited earnings conference call hosted by Jam Capital Advisors. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star and zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Gupt from Jam Capital Advisors. Thank you. Over to you, sir. Thank you, Vivian. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Jam Capital, we welcome you all to Q4 FY 2022 conference call of C.E. Info Systems. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Verma, co-founder and chairman of the company, Mr. Rohan Verma, CEO and executive director of the company. Without any further ado, I will hand over the call to Mr. Rakesh Verma for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir. This is Rakesh Verma. I would like to welcome all of you in this call, and it is my privilege to present before all of you the quarterly results as well as the annual results for the fiscal year 2022. I would straightaway get into some of the financial highlights of the year that ended on March 31, 2022. After I present the financial highlights, I will ask Rohan to take all of you through the entire business operations and the depth of the business, how we have done from the non-financial angle as well. To start with, in my last call also, I had mentioned the best way to understand C.E. Info Systems Limited, MapmyIndia, is to always look at year-on-year, whether it is for quarter ending or for the year ending. Keeping that in mind, I will talk both about the Q4 results as well as the, since March 31, the year also ended. I will talk about the full-year results. Let me first start with the full year, and then I will come back to the Q4 also. For the full year, total income went up from INR 192 crores in fiscal year 2021 to INR 242 crores in fiscal year 2022, which is a growth of 26%. Revenue from operations, and I am talking about all this, I am talking about for our consolidated financial statement. Revenue from operations went up from INR 152 crores to INR 200 crores, which is an increase of 31%. EBITDA, which is a measure of the operations of the company, went up from INR 53 crores to INR 86 crores in fiscal year 2022, which is an increase of 63%. EBITDA margin also went up from 35% to 43%. PBT, profit before tax, went up from INR 79 crores in 2021 to INR 117 crores in FY 2022, which is an increase of 59%. Profit before tax as a percentage of the revenue also went up from 31% to 48%. PAT, profit after tax, went up from INR 60 crores to INR 87 crores, which is an increase of 45%. As a percentage of the total income, it also went up from 31% to 36%. Contribution margin itself also went up from INR 126 crores to INR 170 crores. In other words, the contribution margin went up from 83% to 85%, providing a very high operating leverage to the company's profitability. Some other numbers like cash and cash equivalents went up from INR 336 crores in ending FY 2021 to INR 382 crores after paying off the dividends as well as the acquisitions that we made. Let me get back to the Q4 numbers itself. When I look at the total income of Q4, the total income went up from INR 56 crores in Q4 FY 2021 to INR 69 crores in Q4 FY 2022, which is an increase of 23%. Revenue from operations went up from INR 47 crores to INR 57 crores, which is an increase of 20%. EBITDA went up from INR 19 crores to INR 23 crores, which is an increase of 22%. EBITDA as a percentage margin stayed at 41% in FY 2021 and FY 2022. PBT went up from INR 24 crores to INR 34 crores, which is an increase of 39%. PBT margin also from FY 2021, 43%, it went up to 44%. Went up from INR 19 crores to INR 23 crores, which is an increase of INR 18 crores. The margin, 34% to 33%. These have been the Q4 numbers that I talked about. Even the contribution margin went up for Q4 from 82% to 87%. In terms of the number of employees, end of FY 2021, we had 734 employees. That number has gone up to 936. Out of this, 124 is part of the acquisition of the company that we made. Still, the number went up from 734 to 936. In the past, I have been asked about what kind of money we are spending on R&D. From FY 2021, R&D expenses were approximately INR 3 crores. That has gone up to INR 5 crores in FY 2022. With these numbers, I will ask Rohan to talk about the business side of the company, which will describe the segmental analysis of the customers, which will also describe the order in hand situation and the related areas. Over to you, Rohan. Thanks, Mr. Verma. Hi, everybody. This is Mr. Rohan Verma, CEO and Executive Director of MapmyIndia. Just to kind of set a one-minute background on the company for the people who are new. We are India's leading provider of advanced digital maps, geospatial software, and location-based IoT technologies, and we serve B2B and B2B2C enterprise customers primarily. We are a data and technology products and platforms company, and we offer our proprietary digital maps as a service, what we call MaaS; software as a service, SaaS; and platform as a service or PaaS. Fundamentally, our map and data, which is the core of the company, is what we build our MaaS offerings, and our platform and IoT suite of products includes our SaaS and PaaS offerings, serving many different use cases. We serve two distinct markets. We have been able to divide our business into two different market segments. One is what we call Automotive and Mobility Tech, A&M, and the other is Consumer Tech and Enterprise Digital Transformation, C&E. We serve the Indian market under our brand MapmyIndia, and also we are serving now the world market under our brand Mappls. Breaking down the revenue for this financial year, we went in our A&M business from, in FY 2020, of INR 3.9 crores. FY 2021, it went down to INR 8 crores, and that was all down to COVID. As we explained, the automotive and mobility tech market is linked for both existing new vehicles which are sold, as well as existing on-road vehicles which are moving for the purpose of, let's say, logistics or people transport, et cetera. FY 2021, the macro environment around automotive and mobility both were down due to lockdowns. FY 2022, we've been able to come back strongly. It is now at INR 13 crores, which is almost a 40%-41% increase in the A&M segment. In terms of qualitatively, in Q4, we signed up a bunch of OEMs who started to integrate our NCASE offerings, including one large Indian motorcycle OEM as well as an EV two-wheeler OEM startup. As part of our NCASE offerings, as we said, we service navigation needs, connected vehicle telematics and platform needs, ADAS and autonomous kind of needs, shared mobility as well as electric mobility needs of OEM customers. In that regard, we signed up a Japanese customer for their mobility-as-a-service foray into India. Also, the largest four-wheeler OEM of India went live with their next generation connected vehicles in Q4, and that was integrated with our maps and technologies. Finally, on the safety side, an interesting kind of update was we offered a lot of road safety or ADAS, advanced driver assistance systems capabilities in our maps, in our navigation, in our technologies, in our APIs. A company that Nissan did is partner with us for the suite of road safety initiatives using our road safety platform, similar to how Ministry of Road Transport and Highways in Q3 had signed up with us for something similar. As of in FY 2022, A&M revenues grew 41%, and we continue to expand the use case adoption across our NCASE suite within automotive OEMs. There are five growth engines to our automotive business, including navigation systems, connected systems, ADAS and autonomous systems, shared mobility as well as electric mobility systems. What I'd like to give you a flavor of is amongst the new signups in Q4, new signups in FY 2022, which we have reported before, as well as the go-lives of our various customers. We're happy to see a lot of adoption across the board for different kind of offerings to OEMs. Across automotive and mobility tech, what is nice is in FY 2021, 1 million new vehicles went integrated with MapmyIndia maps and technologies. In FY 2022, it's up to 1.3 million vehicles. That's good to see kind of volume growth also. What we have done for IoT and logistics, which is part of our mobility offerings, we have acquired 26% in a company called Gtropy Systems, so that we can provide a specific boost and specific focus on our mobility aspect of the automotive and mobility tech. Meaning focusing on doing further penetration in the base of on-road vehicles, either if it is commercial vehicles for goods transport or taxis or even for the retail market. By acquiring Gtropy, we have been able to give a specific focus on the IoT and logistics as part of our business. That is A&M. Now I will come to C&E, which is consumer tech and enterprise digital transformation, where essentially we are servicing large consumer tech companies, enterprises across all industry segments, be it in the new age tech space, be it in the traditional companies such as BFSI or retail or FMCG, as well as in the public sector or the government space. Again, what is interesting about FY 2023, our revenue from the C&E segment was INR 44.7 crores, which went up in FY 2021 to INR 72.4 crores and in FY 2022, it has further grown to INR 87.4 crores. Growing at 21% in FY 2022. What is nice is the use cases again continue to expand, and we have been successful in furthering our upselling and cross-selling opportunities to new and existing customers. Some of the examples of that are, like in Q4 FY 2022, two large FMCG majors went live with our geospatial analytics platform and our workforce automation platform, respectively. A large ecommerce company signed up with us for geospatial analytics. Then a large CRM SaaS company integrated our map APIs built into their SaaS product for their customers, so they can offer inbuilt location intelligence. As their product's usage grows amongst their customer base, our revenues will also grow. A large global social media app has also integrated our maps data to provide better location-based consumer experiences. A lot of large popular consumer-facing apps already use MapmyIndia, so we are happy that one more large such player has signed up, which is now having an increased focus on MapmyIndia. Then on the government side or public sector side we again serve many different use cases in the geospatial arena, whether it is on the federal side or the central government side, the state government side or the urban local bodies or local government municipal corporation side, including also in the defense and security area. Some examples that we wanted to highlight is a large smart city has signed up for our geospatial information systems for GIS-based property tax solutions. One of the large eight urban development authorities has signed up for multiple use cases and where we are bringing on our newly built-up drone and 3D mapping capabilities. As we explained in the Q3 earnings call that we have started to expand our drone solution capability, and we are happy to see kind of increased adoption of that in a relatively short period of time. Also, one of the large safe cities in South India, you know that the government has an increased focus as part of its Nirbhaya Fund to make a lot of cities safer from women and child safety point of view. So we have signed up a large city for crime mapping and geospatial analytics. Finally, one of the large state road transport corporations has signed up for their public transport platform, to use MapmyIndia. Like I said, lot of different use cases. Many of these serve as anchor use cases, which we further replicate across different customer segment or across geographies, et cetera. That's what opens up the kind of snowballing opportunities for us in the future. Now I'll move to the product-wise sequential revenue. Revenue grew for both maps and data suite of products by 37%, and also for our platform and IoT suite of products by 28%. This is again on the back of increasing usage by existing as well as new customers in more and more use cases. In FY 2020, maps and data contributed INR 88.7 crores of revenue, which went down to INR 60.8 crores of revenue in FY 2021, and went up to INR 83.1 crores of revenue in FY 2022. In platform and IoT, you see the continuous growth from INR 60 crores in FY 2020 to INR 91.7 crores in FY 2021 to INR 117.3 crores in FY 2022. Showing that both our areas of products, map and data, as well as platform and IoT, are seeing growth as, again, more and more use cases and more and more customers are coming into our basket. One of the other big business updates on the product side was we have released our Mappls platform. Historically, we have been saying that our stack of solutions is device agnostic and global in nature, so geography agnostic also. What we did in Q4 is unified and released our one global platform, which we call Mappls, which includes both our own map data that we have been building in-depth for India since the last 27 years, but also for many neighboring countries, about eight, nine neighboring countries, for the last four, five years, plus 200 other countries and territories whose publicly available maps we have integrated into our platform so that we can offer a global solution to both Indian multinational customers as well as international customers. On the map and data product suite side, we continue to relentlessly expand the coverage and capabilities of our core foundation map product, enhance the real-time and rich component of our maps so that users get the best and most feature-rich maps on a real-time basis. Our value-added geo-demographic datasets, which enable a lot of analytics and location intelligence use cases, as well as our advanced map data, which covers the three-dimensional high definition or high precision and real view 360-degree panoramic capabilities. Remember, these advanced maps are something that the government's geospatial policy allows Indian companies such as us to do, but not foreign entities are to do. With this vision that we've been articulating for four, five years, that we are pushing towards our own AI-powered digital metaverse of the real world. You can start imagining that what use cases and what market opportunities are emerging for us, both today because of our core foundation maps, our real-time and rich associated maps, our ability to offer lots of location intelligence and geo-demographic dataset-based analytics as well as advanced map data. On the platform and IoT product suite side, we have released many new products in both our cloud maps, meaning whether it is location search or routing and navigation or traffic, or in the way that we render indoor, outdoor, 2D, 3D high-definition maps in an interactive way for the best kind of views, what we call real view or VR or AR kind of points of view. As well as our developer API suite, which contains both map capabilities as well as automotive tech, geospatial, as well as digital transformation capabilities. Again, more products from the NCASE automotive suite, our enterprise digital transformation suite, our geospatial suite, which includes drone-based solutions, and our IoT suite for mobility and logistics customers, hardware as well as software, which is further augmented by our acquisition of Gtropy, an IoT and logistics tech company, as we mentioned before, as well as a lot of updates on our consumer-facing app and gadgets. Moving on to our order book. Our annual new order bookings have continued to gain momentum with growth in orders across both A&M as well as C&E market segments. This is basically because of continued adoption and expansion of our use cases as well as upselling and cross-selling to new and existing customers. In FY 2020, we had booked annual new orders of INR 271 crores, which in FY 2021 has moved up to INR 468.2 crores, and in FY 2022, it has moved further up to INR 523 crores. Open order book as of April 2021, beginning of this last financial year, was at INR 377 crores, which has now moved up to INR 699.6 crore. Historically, as we have said before, our open order book to revenue conversion ratio has been over three to five years on average. That will give you a sense of the annual new orders breakup. In terms of the breakup between fixed pricing and volume projection, again, fixed pricing is where the prices or the size of the contracts are already predetermined and fixed. The customer is committed to paying us. It is a function of time as it clears based on the type of contract. The volume-based projections for OEMs happens where they sign us up for a platform and they say that they will put in X number of vehicle models and hence number of vehicles over the period of the contract. That is where the volume projection based orders kick in. For API transactions and subscriptions where it is a pay-as-you-go basis, we do not book any orders in advance. We book the orders as their usage happens and we bill them. If we want to do a simple kind of maths on annual new orders breakup versus revenue open order book. You can see that we started the year on INR 377 crore open order book. We generated new orders of INR 523 crores, and we recognized INR 200 crore of revenue on 327 plus 523 equals to 900, minus 200 equals to INR 700 crores, which is our open order book at the end of the year. Revenue in the year is a combination of previous year's order book converted into revenue that year, part of it, and also in year orders, books within the year get converted within that year itself, and then future order book will get converted into future revenue. In terms of customers, we are happy to say that customer growth is also happening. We had 500-plus customers on our MaaS SaaS platform in FY 2021. That has now grown by 100 numbers. So it is now up to 600-plus in FY 2022. Of course, since inception, we have serviced more than 2,000 enterprise customers, including the marquee names across nearly every vertical. Some of the names we have already reported as part of our RHP, et cetera. If you look around in automotive or consumer tech or enterprise or even government, the marquee names are mostly our customers. On the customer concentration side, we are happy to share that the trend continues to show diversification and deconcentration. Our top 80% of our revenue in FY 2019 was made of 17 customers, which moved up to 22 in FY 2020, to 25 in FY 2021, and then in FY 2022, we had 35 customers contributing 80% of our revenue. Even in terms of retention, amongst these large customers, 88% were retained between FY 2019 to FY 2020, then amongst the large customers in FY 2020, 91% were retained in FY 2021, and amongst the large customers in FY 2021, 82% were retained in FY 2022. So it shows that our retention ratio is also going further up. In terms of employees, Mr. Verma has already given you the headline numbers of 812 employees, 734 employees in FY 2021, moving up to 936 employees, which includes 124 employees of Gtropy in FY 2022. We further in our presentation deck, broken it up by permanent and non-permanent and also technical and SG&A, et cetera. We have also shared our attrition rates, which for FY 2020 was 12%, FY 2021 was 13.5%, and in this challenging labor market space, our tech talent market is 17.45%. The way that we have continued to retain and upskill our employees is basically a combination of upskilling them, giving them new opportunities to build on world-class technology products and platforms, something that they do not get an opportunity to work in other services tech companies. Also, of course, we care from a compensation point of view to make sure that we are highly competitive. Finally, on the P&L highlights side, Mr. Verma has already talked about whether it is from the revenue from operations or contribution profit margin for the PaaS or et cetera. I will not go through details of that. Inorganic acquisitions in FY 2022, like he mentioned in March, we concluded the Gtropy Systems Private Limited acquisition of 75.98% for a consideration of INR 13.5 crores. Also in December, we had acquired a 9.9% stake in a young startup called PupilMesh in the ADAS and AR and reality metaverse tech space for INR 49.95 lakhs. I will just end with a few minutes on what the opportunity ahead of us lies as a company. See on the automotive and mobility side, there are 20 million new vehicles including two-wheelers sold every year and 280 million existing vehicles on the road that both can benefit from our NCASE and digitalization-based logistics, PaaS, and IoT technologies. There is a huge opportunity ahead of us as adoption rises in the A&M space. On the C&E space, we all know how consumer app usage is going up. With 37 billion apps to be downloaded, et cetera, in FY 2022, and we are a B2B2C, meaning we provide our APIs which go built into that. Similarly, enterprise digital transformation, the digital services market for that is about $52 billion. Out of that geospatial or our category of products, if you see the set of products we provide for digital transformation forms a slice of that, which tells us that the industry is, the market potential is very large for our offerings. The government initiatives across the sector in terms of digital but also macro trends like GPS-based tolling being talked about. Drone sectors, ADAS, these are all trends that will help us. With that, I will conclude my part of the presentation, and Mr. Verma and I can take questions based on the monthly update. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Participants who wish to ask a question may kindly press star 1 on your touch-tone telephone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the current queue, you may press star and 2. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Kunal Karm from Dam Street. Kindly proceed. Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations on the strong execution on operations and the order book. I had a few questions. Firstly, I wanted to understand the order book more in detail, so it would be great if you can highlight the key areas in both A&M and C&E segment where the orders we are getting, and also what proportion of the order book this time would be from the government contracts. That is first. Okay. So again, in terms of A&M, C&E or in terms of fixed pricing and volume projections based order booking, I am just putting out the total numbers and the breakup. It is correct. We see close this year, INR 278.67 is from volume projection based. You can think of that as primarily automotive or OEM-driven, and the rest of it, INR 244.9 crores, is from the fixed pricing bit. As I said earlier, the order book does not include API transactions that might happen in future where customer has not recommitted that, and it does not include subscriptions of IoT, which where the growth of the fleet happens, then those automatic kind of subscription devices, it does not include that. Further on the government side, it will form a part of the fixed pricing kind of orders, but it is still a relatively small part of our order booking, less than around 10%, to give you a sense. Remember, in the government side, we are primarily a product and platform OEM company, and we work with a lot of systems integrators. An example of that, even if we go direct many times with a product and platform company, example of that is like say GSTN, Goods and Services Tax Network, where our apps are built-in and you are seeing when somebody has to sign up for GSTN, GST number, then also MapmyIndia has to be used as part of the GSTN Infosys portal. But we have gone direct with GSTN. Or in the case of digital sky platform, where we work with the systems integrator Happiest Minds, and we are the OEM providers. That should give you some flavor of government and also as a proportion of our total order book. Sure. Thanks. As a strategy, are we closing our government contracts at 10% or can the percentage increase going ahead? See, we see a large opportunity in the government and geospatial sectors. This is a fact that the government has taken on a lot of digital transformation initiatives. I would say it's almost like a corporatized activity across center, state, and local technology and digitization as something that government is fast adopting. Being a product and platform company, we feel that we are in a better position to handle the government business that we take on, but we don't want it to be a very large part of our portfolio definitely. Government business, we will put a kind of upper limit of, let's say, 20% of our business. Sure. Secondly, wanted to understand a bit on the financial statements and particularly on the operating cash flow side. This year, we have seen that the operating cash flow has been relatively lower as compared to the last year. In the balance sheet, we are seeing that the others item in both current and non-current assets have increased this time. Also the receivables increase has been quite a bit in this year. Can you allude for the reason for the same? Thanks. Let me start with receivables. If you look at the receivables as a percentage of sales, it has not gone up really. It becomes a function of sales. Number two, particularly in December, whatever we bill, somehow that receivables gets shown into the 1st March. I don't think receivables should be looked at as if it has gone up. As far as the cash flow from operations is concerned, it's a very tricky thing based on the accounting standard and the way you and I might be understanding. When you move the amount or investments from a current to a non-current asset, it immediately shows off. That's why we have tried to give you a cash and cash equivalence number, which is from INR 330 or something to INR 380 crores, after paying off dividend and after acquisition. I think if you look at it that way, it gives a much better understanding of what has happened to the cash flow rather than looking at the way the accounting standards are calling for us to make the cash flow. INR 14 crores of Gtropy acquisition and INR 10 crores or INR 10.5 crores for dividends. Right. Those are two kind of Sure. Okay. That is it from my end. The next question is from the line of Ashish Chopra from Goldman Sachs. Yeah, hi. Ashish, your line is open. Couple of questions from client. Firstly, just on the growth in the C&E segment this year, the 21% year-over-year. I just wanted to understand from you as to how do you feel about the growth, the opportunity. Is that sort of more or less optimal considering that the volumes may be very high in the business with the increasing usage of e-commerce and so on? But given that you are signing fixed-price contracts, is the visibility something that is saying it is in a very good year? Or is this growth low for whatever reason in a category? Let me first say that the growth has been 31% year-over-year from revenue from operations. Are you talking about C&E or overall? Only C&E. Okay. I think that you are talking about C&E specifically, right? Yes. Yeah. Two things to keep in mind. One is that, yes, C&E as a revenue this year has gone up by 20%. Answer is no, we do not think that this is the limitation for it. A little bit you will get that too from our order bookings, which is, like I said, volume projection-based order booking is reflective of automotive side of OEM side of the business. The fixed pricing is reflective of C&E and other things. Now, fixed pricing word might be a bit misleading, and that is what I was going to explain. Fixed pricing means where we are committing that we are going to get that money. It is just a function of time that we will bill that. The upside on that is increased API usage or increased subscriptions and those things. That happens when our customers themselves grow. They may not have committed to us, they might not have taken MG, minimum guarantee, but there is an upside that exists. Answers, we are bullish about C&E, and that is kind of coming through from the order book. The future might look slightly different. Any reason why the growth in this year was at 21%? Was it because of low order bookings in the previous year because of COVID or was there any other factor change like maybe the booking of milestones or something of that nature? Yeah, a little bit C&E is a function of kind of what order bookings we had in hand beginning of the year. No particular reason why it is at 20%. Not that aside from the costs, our different customers, their business has also been growing. But yes, there might be more fixed price customers who might have billed this year where the API component may have been smaller potentially. But no specific trend that I can really tell you for this year right now, why it's at 20%. But based on the open order book that you believe has a line of sight for acceleration in materially going forward? Both the line of sight and beyond line of sight, both are exciting in this space. Sure. Got it. Secondly, the order book that you mentioned in FY 2021/22, the number has gone up quite handsomely. Would it be possible to share a ballpark average duration of the order book in each of those periods? Has it been gradually increasing or has it been more or less constant? It varies. The range is 3-5 years that we kind of shared. What is the contract. I would say that again it's not a trend, it's a function of each order, what the contract is and how the sum of parts happen. You can take it as 3-5 years is the average. Whether it was 3 years earlier, 4 years or 5 years, there's no specific trend. I think that financial statement will disclose that amount. Yeah. To give you a sense, in FY 2021, out of that open order book of INR 377 crores, about 20-odd%, 21-odd%, about INR 80-odd crores was recognized from that open order book in FY 2022. You can see out of INR 200 crores of revenue, INR 80 crores odd came from open order book, and rest INR 120 crores came from in-year orders. In-year orders were about INR 520 crores. Now, in FY 2023, out of the INR 700 crores of open order book, it is an estimate. We are not sure whether this will happen, but it is an estimate based on multiple factors, that about 24.5-odd%, which at INR 700 crores, which is roughly might be about INR 170 or something like that, crores will come from the open order book. In that sense, you can see that the trend is going down, whatever, making 5 year to 4 years or whatever. But again, going forward in the future, these are estimates, so I would not. Hopefully, that gives you some colors of the past order book to revenue conversion and this year, et cetera. Yeah. That is helpful. And one last question from my side. Just on the margins front. While the margin declined on a year-over-year basis, but they reduced it. I mean, not reduced, but your employee expenses really were significantly lower. If you could just explain what played out there, and how should we expect the employee expenses and IT progress going forward? Okay. The Q4 employee expenses, if you are finding that it has come down, I think that's your question, right? Yes. There has been a technical adjustment that has happened in the employee expenses in the Q4. Not in this slide. Not over the Wait. So that technical adjustment is related to around 5.25 crores of provision that we had made for bonus and incentive. In the first half of the year, it was decided that that is not required to be paid at all, and hence, a reversal of that has happened in this quarter. And that is what is showing you a lower Q4 number. But if you look at the overall financial year, there's no- Overall, it has not come down from INR 53 crores. It has gone up to INR 57 crores. And is this for that employee cost for 812 employees or for 136 employees? For 800 and- Yeah, INR 812 only because actually the Gtropy acquisition closed only by March. So really our consolidated only includes one month of revenue and expense from Gtropy. So it is a very small amount. Got it. Thank you for taking my questions. The next question is from the line of Ankit Pandey from ICICI Securities. Kindly proceed. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. I just had two questions, actually. I just wanted to understand your billing cycle in your C&E business, actually. And just to get a sense of what kind of client concentration is present into your C&E business. Thank you. Client concentration, don't talk about the 35 customers make up 80%. If your question is out of that 35, how many are in A&M and how many are C&E, I would say 15, 20 might be in C&E and Slightly more in C&E than A&M. Obviously, there are more customers in C&E universe than A&M. Again, in terms of concentration, I think it's even, it's diversifying, and there's no real concentration even on C&E side. The billing cycle, as you mentioned, see a couple of different ways which we bill our C&E orders and bill our C&E customers. Somebody could be licensing our map data, for example, where we have a multi-year contract that they will license our map data, and the contract might say that we have to bill them on a yearly basis. So that's one. There could be some scenarios where it's bill on quarterly basis also. Then on the API side, where they are customers, they have to pay us per transaction. Imagine if you are opening or using a customer of ours app, every time you do a search or every time you see a map. You don't set the direction or distance. We do a prescription to do that distance for whatever use case. We are taking paid up per transaction fee. So really it is a PaaS or API or SaaS kind of transaction-based revenue. In that, sometimes there are MGs, minimum guarantees, that we take from customers, which is billable on a quarterly or yearly basis. Then there are SaaS subscriptions for our IoT solutions, where it's one vehicle per year or one vehicle per month. They're paying for the usage of our products or platforms. So these are the different types of products which have slightly different billing cycles. Okay. So basically you mean to say that it's a combination of transaction-based revenue also and subscription-based revenue also, right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. Transactions, subscription, and fixed price. IoT-based also. Okay. IoT is included. Okay. Transactions, subscription, and IoTs. That is right. Is there any seasonality in this business? Yeah, there is a seasonality. Like tend into which quarter or is it like That is what we said that look at our business on a year-to-date, year-on-year basis. Yes, correct. It's the right way. If you look at it on a quarter-on-quarter basis, it will look lumpy. That's the nature of the types of order books or contracts that we have. For different customers, it might be different. To give you a color, if you are thinking Q1 and Q3 is one kind of quarters, and Q2 and Q4 are another kind of quarters. You mean to say, sir, these contracts end in Q4 actually. I mean, like that, I mean. Generally, consumer contracts end in Q4, you mentioned it, and End meaning that the cycle of the contract and billing might be skewed towards, I think what Mr. Verma is saying is Q2 and Q4 versus Q1 and Q3. Okay. My last question, Mr. Rakesh Verma. Just wanted to understand, when I look at the government projects also, which almost accounts to 10% of the order book and revenue, just wanted to get a sense on that. Is there a seasonality in those contracts also, and what kind of pricing or billing is done in those projects also? Thank you. In terms of getting the contract, signing the contract, yeah, there is a seasonality of Q4. Q4 helps in getting a higher percentage of the contracts from the government. That is true. As far as billing is concerned, it is based on the timeline that is worked upon with any contract, what period you have to deliver. The Q1 and Q3, as I said, may have a lighter revenue or billing compared to Q2 and Q4. One is the automotive itself that will play a role. Okay. Because Q2, the automotive normal sales are much higher when they prepare for the Diwali kind of a thing. Q4, when you try to complete some of the government projects by Q4. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the detailed presentation. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Humayun Kabira from Dalal & Broacha. Thank you, Pradeep. Hi. Thank you for taking my question. My one question is basically, earlier in the call, you mentioned about ADAS and road safety platforms. Just request you if you could elaborate a little more on these platforms and what percentage of revenue do these platforms contribute and what are your plans for them? Thanks. Yeah. Built into our maps and our navigation platform is the capability to enable our drivers while driving with safety alerts that will help prevent an accident. So whether it is telling him or her that a speed breaker, pothole, unsafe area, accident-prone zone, or sharp curve is ahead, those are what alerts we are able to give on a real-time basis to the users to prevent them. On the IoT side, there is also camera-based IoT-connected cameras also that we provide. These are two different types of solutions. Then the third type of solution that we are building for ADAS is high-definition maps or ADAS maps, which will allow for higher level of autonomy. We also provide our customers the ability to do all these analytics. So not necessarily just when the driver is driving. So in a light production vehicle, but also whether it is the government organizations who are in charge of roads or highways, or whether it is logistics companies or any manufacturing company that has to move goods, we do the analytics as to where are the unsafe areas or stretches of roads in different parts. These are the kinds of geospatial analytics for road safety that we are able to provide. So end consumer use case or applications, whether it is these APIs or navigation or a type of ADAS platform solutions, as well as our kind of analytics solutions. It is not very easy to specifically call out revenue from this road safety platform or ADAS yet. It goes built in as a capability, USP benefit of our various suite of solutions. There is no kind of. In the automotive area, ADAS is becoming important consideration for customers. Them having MapmyIndia built in gives them this ability to offer additional road safety capabilities that other maps either don't have or because of the government regulation may not be able to offer. Similarly, on the other side, whether it is geospatial analytics, et cetera, it is one of the capabilities that we are able to bring into our offering. Sir, this thing is at development stage or it is already monetized? We monetize it. If you look at a bunch of OEM customers, they already offer to their consumers these road safety alerts based on MapmyIndia's capabilities. It is already in monetization. High-definition maps, yes, is one of those future R&Ds that we have been doing to support higher levels of autonomy. That is something that is under active development. Okay. That is all from my end. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sukhbir Aggarwal from Nari Investment. Kindly proceed. Hello. Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. Sir, I have two questions, sir. The first one is, in FY 2021. Hello? Yes, Mr. Aggarwal. Kindly proceed. Yes, sir. In FY 2020, your consumer advertisement contributed to 30%. In FY 2022, it is almost 40%. So what will be expected in next two to three years? Any color? We have always said from the beginning that both of these are two market segments we are serving, which have their own kind of growth trajectories, meaning both the markets are opening up. To be honest, both of them have similar margin profiles for us. It is hard to say which one will be larger or smaller. You will see some years the order booking on one grow faster and some years the revenue are growing faster. It is just a combination of things. We do not give a specific kind of trend as to which one will grow larger. You can see the historical trend to understand. Of course, there are so many customers that are there in C&E, but then automotive and mobility also is a very large market segment. No specific trend that we see for the future. They have their own independent growth vectors. My next question is, have you shared any color on upcoming order book orders or any pipelines which way are you working? It will be helpful if you share any updates. We try to give you the annual new order bookings, and we try to give you the open order book. Of course, for the future order booking, we are continuously working hard to grow the pipeline, grow the order bookings. No specific kind of number to share on that. But A, market is opening up, and B, we are also continuing to accelerate our sales and marketing efforts, upselling opportunities, cross-selling opportunities. We are still quite bullish on the different use cases and opportunities which will get converted into orders in the future. I think you can take it this way, that the pipeline is strong. It is a question of when we are able to convert it into actual real order. But we are quite bullish about that because the pipeline is strong. Yeah. Okay. I agree. It's helpful. The last one is, revenue from 2-wheeler electric vehicle, could there any major contribution? Could you give any number? Actually, the number of electric vehicle OEMs which are going live has increased in the last year, which is very exciting. Some of them obviously already kind of launched, whether it was your MG electric vehicle which launched in January, had our solution, the Bajaj electric vehicle, for example. There's a bunch of OEMs. We had even reported in Q3. Some of the OEMs were using our connected vehicle platform. We obviously don't put out separate electric vehicle-driven revenue as part of our A&M segment. Suffice to say, qualitatively at least, you are seeing that electric vehicle market go up and more and more electric vehicle OEMs are signing up with us. We have the right solution with the right differentiator. In MG Vehicle, for example, you can see the expected range and some of the spider map specificity, rather than a generic calculation based on the route Destination, traffic, and even potentially driving behavior. I see the OEMs require such types of solutions, such as EV charge station finders or kind of reserving or booking through the vehicle. Yeah, we see bright future for electric adoption. Yeah, we have not yet broken it out as a sub-metric. Okay. Thank you. Participants are requested to restrict their questions to two per participant. The next question is from the line of Shyam Sundar Sriram from Sundaram Mutual Fund. You may proceed. Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for taking my question. First question is on this Gtropy software acquisition. Now, it appears to me that this is an aftermarket solution per se. How will the go-to-market strategy be, and how does Gtropy complement our existing offerings per se? Because this market appears the vehicle tracking solutions appears getting more and more crowded. How does their capabilities complement what we already have, and what will be the go-to-market strategy here? Is it via OEMs that we plan to approach this solution? Any thoughts please you can share. Yeah. It's a good question, and actually it's very complementary and very additive. A couple of things I'll say. One is by creating a kind of merged entity of our IoT business, with a very strong business leader, as a CEO of that business, a very strong founding team, cross-functional. We can give a focus and accelerate the growth in this very large market, which is quite fragmented. But we are a scale player. We are one of the largest players in this space. A lot of consolidation might happen or small players might get edged out as the large players get focused. That was one of the core reasons that we saw large market opportunity. As I mentioned, 280 million existing vehicles on road can benefit from digitalization. That's where the large macro potential addressable market is for us to sell our IoT and logistics SaaS. The other very good capability that they bring is very deep domain knowledge as well as capability, experience, equities in servicing logistics sector. It is a deep, not just vehicle tracking or not just managing a fleet, but all the things required for a logistics department of an enterprise, or all the tools required for a logistics service provider, including FinTech, including ERP. That's what they brought in. They bring a deep domain knowledge for logistics. Whereas historically, MapmyIndia has been focused a lot on the passenger transport, be it fleets, be it taxis, et cetera. That became very interesting to us. The combination of Gtropy and MMI, MapmyIndia, is the power of our apps to provide logistics companies with, for example, GPS-based tolling. Now, we know what are the toll stretches across the country. We know all the toll booths, we know all the toll stretches. Based on routes that people have to service between a start point and end point, we can tell them the cheapest tollable route, and then they can see the adherence on that using the Gtropy solution. A lot of analytics as to where the potential accident-prone zones are, so that might cause hazardous goods to have an accident, which might keep cluttering. On very detailed or specific details. Gtropy allows us to have a focus on IoT. They are very complementary when it comes to logistics. They also are bringing a strong business focus, and our capabilities when merged into their offerings, provides kind of a highly differentiated market, of course, backed with scale and muscle of the size of MapmyIndia. We are very bullish on where this business and hence our consolidated focus IoT will go in the future. Sure, sir. Thank you. Just one point on this Mappls and the global revenue opportunity. In FY 2022, if you can give some perspective of how big was our revenue pie from some of the global customers per se, just some sense. What kind of opportunity does this Mappls platform open up per se, just on opportunity size or anything of that sort if you can share. Lastly, just the margin range. What margin range do we want to operate in? Would it be like a 40%-50% range in terms of the margin? Any range if you can share. Thank you. Margin from Mr. Sharma will talk. We want to maintain a range. He will talk about it. I will answer your other question of the Mappls global opportunity. Historically, we definitely have international customers. But they have been using us for their India market solutions, for our India market solutions. But if you look at the kind of global addressable market, countries in the West where there is more adoption of our type of technology, of course, on the East also. Then there is emerging markets in Southeast Asia, Middle East, and then further kind of much behind us markets like Africa, et cetera. Taking a Mappls platform, we are readying ourselves for international expansion or being able to service the international market needs of either our Indian customers who want to go global or who have global operations, as well as for other customers globally who stay in the same space as our Indian customers marquee names, but we have not been able to approach them in the past because we did not have an offering that could be relevant to their markets. The opportunity size is quite large. The international market revenues will take some time to build up. It is, I would say, a trivial component of our revenue in the past. Are we serious? Are we engaged? For that, we have also brought in a president for APAC who is based in Korea and who comes with 20-plus years of experience, 10 of them in Hyundai as an automotive OEM, but also in the telecom and other enterprise segments, and has worked in Europe and U.S. as well. We brought him into our C.E. Info International subsidiary, which is our U.S. subsidiary, from which we will do a lot of the Mappls international market business. Whether it is in the A&M space, automotive, NCASE, or mobility, IoT, logistics, SaaS, or consumer tech, APIs, or enterprise digital transformation solutions that we offer, which are location-powered. All of the opportunities that we service in India, most of them we can also service in the global market. We are being a bit deliberate, a bit careful about how we expand. Yeah, that is what gives us that layer of excitement in the 3-5 years timeframe for the true international market revenue potential for us also. On the margin profile? On the margin, I can give you the color. If you think about the PAT, in 2021 we achieved 31%, in 2022 we have achieved 36%. That is a good range to operate, and all the things within the company, we try to ensure that the management of the company should operate within some parameters. This is a good range when I talk about 31%-36% for PAT. For PBT, 31%-38%, that is a good range we need to operate. Similarly, 35%-43% range is how we have operated in the past. This is the kind of margin range I can talk about. Basically, we want to also fuel our growth, so we will try to keep these margins calibrated so that the future also, we should accelerate. Understood, sir. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ankush Badal from Subhkam Ventures. Kindly proceed. Good evening, sir. Just one question from my side. What kind of new order booking you are targeting for this current year, FY 2023? I think we talked a little bit about it, that the pipeline looks strong. We are looking to, of course, grow on all fronts. No specific kind of number to tell you right now for what FY 2023 order booking will look like. But of course, we are working hard to at least continue to grow. Any growth range, sir, like 10%, 15%, maybe 25%? Because FY 2022 was very good. Let's hope. I can only say let's hope and work towards making it still better. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Karan Uppal from PhillipCapital. Kindly proceed. Yeah. Thanks, sir, for the opportunity. Most of my questions have been answered. Just one question on the R&D expenses. You mentioned that in FY 2021, R&D expenses were around INR 3 crores, which went INR 5 crores in FY 2022. So the range is about 2.5% of revenue. Is this the benchmark for R&D for the particular year or from FY 2023 onwards, you are expecting R&D expenses to go up? Also, if you can elaborate which are the areas where you are investing. You see, the R&D expense in our case so far is more of expenses on people who are deployed for the R&D. So there are 3 stages. Let me explain. A very core R&D, like we are doing it on high-definition maps. Then from there, it turns out through a productization where we convert the results of the R&D into building the product. So then the third part is the operations of the product so that customers are served. So when I talked about INR 3 crores to INR 5 crores, that's a good range because it is practically the cost of the people. Some equipment are there when we have to buy or some other things we might require. But 2%-3% is a good range, I can say. Okay. Thanks a lot. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nithin Sharma from MC Pro Research. Kindly proceed. Yeah. Hello, am I audible? Yes, sir. You are. Yeah. First of all, congratulations on good set of numbers. Two questions really. One is for Kirti. Would like to understand that the other expenses went up. So Kirti, talk about what is driving them and is it of permanent nature? This is for Q4, you said? You are wanting us to answer for Q4 or FY? Q4. Q4. Marketing and legal professionals. Q4. See, what is this other expense? Normally, it is only a summary or a consolidation of several expenses like advertising expense, like infrastructure expense. Cloud? No. Like that, these expenses, I cannot give you an answer this minute, honestly. Maybe our CFO can be called and he might give you the details. No problem. That is super. That is no problem. I will leave those offline. Second question, if I may. Can you please provide some color on what kind of market share aspiration you want to cover by say, by FY 2025? Some sense to it. Referring to the slide on the addressable market. It is hard to determine the market size and hence market share in some of the areas. Automotive OEMs, it is relatively easy to see because you see all the cars and you see where we are and where our competitors are, et cetera. So that is one area where historically the market share has been quite high, in the order of 80%-90%. In the rest of it, our aspiration, I can tell you, that we definitely want to be the largest player in as many spaces as possible, whether it's the IoT and logistics space where we have acquired Gtropy with that intent to scale that up or even when it comes to the API space, where more and more customers are coming and switching to our APIs in the last year as we offer better quality maps, more features, and even more API building blocks to help them build better applications. If you look at our API portfolio, you'll see it's almost like a mini AWS, in terms of many types of application building blocks, going further beyond just maps to tracking, to telematics, to workforce automation, to geospatial analytics, to dashboarding. Developers, once they come onto our platform, they start getting more and more reasons to stick with us. Then there's the whole geospatial space which is also an increased focus for us as the market for that, especially from the government side, is opening up. Sorry, hard to say a market share aspiration, but suffice to say that, look, the addressable market is very large. We look at inflation not just in our sector from global companies, but also generally blue-chip companies from India. The long-term aspiration is to be a very large company built based on data and technology. We are working year on year, quarter and quarter towards that larger vision as well as the short-term kind of performance. Let me add something. I got a message saying that the EBITDA margin range, which I talked about, was not very clearly audible. I said it is in the range of 35%-43%. That's it from my side. Thanks a lot. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Srishti Jain from Monarch Networth Capital. Srishti. Thank you for the opportunity, sir. I had one question on the trend that our new order bookings have slightly tapered down. In FY 2021, we had about INR 460 crores and now in FY 2022, we are doing INR 523 crores. Is there a reason why its growth is not as much as what we saw in FY 2021? See, the order booking growth is a different vector than the revenue growth. Orders will get converted to revenues, which tends to help compound the revenue in future. Order booking itself growing is a very strong signal for the future revenue for the company. No particular reason. The pipeline is very strong. What we could convert in FY 2023, we have reported that. The balance of our pipeline is quite strong, and what we could convert in FY 2022, we have reported to FY 2023 close. Balance of that, as much as we can convert based on what the pipeline is, we will convert in FY 2023. There are new opportunities, and that is what we try to explain that, look, we are opening up more and more use cases for our products and solutions, more and more markets. It is our own reach to more and more customers and being able to convert it that will result in the outcomes, which is up to our execution. Understood, sir. Sir, on the automotive side, if you look at FY 2020 and FY 2022, ignoring FY 2021, which is a COVID-impacted year. The growth hasn't been as much as the opportunity size, be it in EV or be it ADAS vehicles. Is there a reason why and on the same lines, how important is embedded navigation to these OEMs? Are we still holding 80% market share in automotive? Yeah. See, FY 2022, we talked about in Q3 earnings call about the semiconductor impact. So keep that in mind as one. What I said is 1.3 million vehicles versus 1 million vehicles with Mappls and technologies versus what you could see what the growth or de-growth or flat of the automotive sales itself was. So that should give you a sense. The third thing which I told you is, look, our embedded navigation is now an NCASE suite of kinds of capabilities that we offer. It is not just a vanilla navigation. So there is so many more features that it offers with high accuracy and quality of the experience that, yes, you are seeing companies like MG Motors and Mahindra, which are really leveraging the power of our capabilities. Whereas the EV two-wheelers, and we talk about it as a Q4 win because it was earlier win, but you are seeing in the social media these days, Ola Electric, kind of talk about its MoveOS 2. So that's obviously something which we are powering. So answer is navigation as a use case is very important to consumers. OEMs need to offer it, and added onto that with our safety and electric and other connected capabilities like in-vehicle commerce or what will come as GPS-based tolling, we think our value proposition is very strong to OEMs. We are bullish on that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Prasher from Shubhlaxmi Prestige. Kindly proceed. Hello. Hello. Hello, I am audible? Yes, you are. Thanks for the opportunity. My question is, this quarter employee cost was down by around INR 3 crore, so whether the reason is layoff or something? We had explained that earlier, that if you look at an FY full year basis, the trend is from INR 53 crore to INR 57 crore, so that is only growing. But in Q4, as we said that in the first half of the year, we had provisioned for INR 5.25 crore of bonus and incentives, which in the end were not paid, and hence you are seeing that reflected in Q4. But from the FY full year basis, there is no impact. It was just a quarter. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. I would like to say thank you very much to everybody for joining the call and asking the questions. We, of course, remain very bullish and excited about where the future is going for the company. And thank everybody for being a continued and long-term shareholder, and very happy to keep getting inputs on products, on business, and we are very responsive to that. And that's part of our DNA to keep innovating and evolving, and look forward to your continued engagement. Thank you. Thank you. On behalf of the Ambit Capital Advisors, I conclude this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect.