Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Q4 and FY 2024 Sansera Engineering Limited's earnings conference call, hosted by PhillipCapital Private Client Group . This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Raunaq Sabharwal for opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Neha. Good morning, everyone. On behalf of PhillipCapital Private Client Group, I welcome you all to the Q4 and FY 2024 earnings conference call of Sansera Engineering Limited. We thank the management of Sansera Engineering Limited for allowing us to host the call. On the management side, we have Mr. B. R. Preetham, Executive Director and CEO, Mr. Vikas Goel, CFO, and Mr. Praveen Chauhan, COO. I now hand over the conference to Mr. Preetham for his opening remarks, and we will then open the floor for a Q&A session. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, Raunaq. Thank you, and good morning, and welcome to everyone. Thanks for joining this call. As told on this call, I'm joined by our CFO, Mr. Vikas Goel, our COO, Mr. Praveen Chauhan, and our investor relations advisor, SGA. The results and the presentations are uploaded on the stock exchange and the company websites. I hope all of you have had a chance to look at them. We maintained our growth trajectory in the fiscal year 2024. We have reported a very healthy double-digit growth annually since our IPO. This growth is driven by our efforts to expand our emerging business segments, namely non-automotive, tech-agnostic, and xEV. We closed the year with our highest ever annual revenue and EBITDA at INR 28...
INR 28,114 million and EBITDA at approximately INR 4,800 million, respectively. For FY 2024, I'm very happy to say that our board of directors have recommended a dividend of INR 3 per equity share. The EBITDA margin has improved from 16.4% in FY 2023 to 17.1% in FY 2024, on the back of business mix and operational efficiencies. Our quarterly revenue and EBITDA were also at record levels at INR 7,459 million and INR 1,268 million, respectively. Overall, the auto industry during the year, with growth coming across all market segments, including two-wheeler, three-wheelers, passenger vehicles, tractors, and commercial vehicles. The two-wheeler segment's growth was a function of both ICE and EV growth. Historically, Sansera has outperformed the industry growth by a healthy margin.
Our performance in the past few years is a reflection of the same. In terms of business mix details, quarterly numbers are available in our investor deck. I'm going to focus on our annual numbers to share some strategic insights alongside. Our auto ICE segment delivered a growth of 17.7%. The growth of this segment is driven by both addition of new customers as well as expansion in wallet share of the existing customers like Bajaj, Maruti, Tata Motors, General Motors and TVS. Zooming further on auto ICE segment, both motorcycles and PVs grew by over 20%, approximately at INR 9521 million and INR 6014 million, respectively. These are our largest end markets in the ICE space and continue to see traction amongst the global OEMs.
With our manufacturing progress, we are able to address their needs in a swift manner. xEV segment grew by 10.7%, taking the total sales to approximately INR 261.6 million, with growth spread across India and Europe. Two-wheeler scooters, which are transitioning into EVs at a fast clip, contribute, degrew by 10.8%, resulting in sales of approximately INR 153.3 million. To offset this trend, we have built a solid portfolio in of tech-agnostic and xEV products, which registered a healthy 43.3% growth. Our auto tech-agnostic revenues were close to INR 2,000 million. This segment offers a variety of products, including suspension parts, braking system, chassis components, steering, aluminum forged components, among other things.
We have an interesting customer line up over here, including premium two-wheelers and premium manufacturers, who are based across the world. On EV side, we delivered INR 1,243 million in top line, registering a growth of 52%. This growth is largely driven by the commercialization of our orders for a marquee North American customer.... Moving on to non-auto side, this business has been growing in accelerated manner. We delivered a revenue of INR 3,239 million, with a 25% growth in this segment. Aerospace and defense segment registered 19% growth to reach a top line of INR 1,093 million. Broadly speaking, this business has doubled between FY 2021 and FY 2024.
Despite experiencing a few minor setbacks this year, the business maintains a positive long-term look due to substantial interest shown by both existing and the new customers, and we are very, very positive on this segment. On the defense side, the validation cycles are fairly long. We have begun our journey in this segment with a few marquee projects. We maintain our growth positive outlook on this segment. As expected, the off-road segment surpassed the milestone of INR 1,000 million. In fact, we grew by 66% in this year to touch sales of INR 1,144 million. Agriculture sales declined to INR 556 million. Industrial and marine engine comps, which are an offshoot of CV comps, are expected to be a major driver in a non-auto category. These components are typically larger in size than CV components for the larger size engines.
We have recently secured significant orders in this sector for from prominent international clients. Taking a minute to talk about our Swedish subsidiary. Despite some changes on account of product share, reorganization in the last year, we reported an 11% increase in revenues. As we mentioned in our last call, we had several discussions with our anchor customer here. Resultantly, we have received orders for additional products in this facility. Moving now moving to order book updates. Of the new business with annual peak revenue stood at INR 15.9 billion as of March 2024. This is after our annual reset. As you are all aware, we reset our order book at the beginning of the year. This mix of our order book is in sync with our long-term vision with respect to the business mix.
On the CapEx front, the new 4,000-ton press, which will be commissioned in the H1, is well on track. In fact, our team has just recently visited the manufacturer and cleared the press. Along with this, we are adding two more presses of 2,500 tons and 1,600 tons respectively, to increase our capacity for the bigger engine category of components. This will be a very meaningful addition. This will also, there will also be a very meaningful addition to the capacities in lightweighting and aluminum components in here as well. Typically, these components, these aluminum forged components, replace steel forging components to achieve lightweighting requirements. A strong demand for these components is expected from premium vehicles, EV vehicles, and also hybrid vehicles.
Given the nature of these components, there is a potential to increase the revenue per vehicle by four to five times compared to our ICE per vehicle components. We also foresee a large export opportunity with these components. Our diverse product portfolio in these is the cornerstone of our continuous growth over the years. With this portfolio, able to pivot and evolve continuously to meet shifting market demands as well. With several years of efforts, Sansera has built a legacy on ICE side. We strive to create the same recall for ourselves in the emerging business segments as well. Now, I hand over this to my colleague, Vikas Goel, who will talk about our financial highlights. Vikas?
Good morning, everyone. Thank you, Preetham. I will talk about the fourth quarter performance first, and then I'll cover the full year performance. So for the Q4, our revenues stood at INR 7,469 million, which is a 21% growth on a year-on-year basis. While both domestic and international business showed strong growth in the quarter. The international business outpaced domestic business, resulting in gross margin improvement by 1.2%, including the continued improvement in the manufacturing efficiencies. EBITDA grew by about 32% on a year-on-year basis to INR 1,270 million. Growth in the gross margin flew through our EBITDA, and we achieved a margin of 17% versus 15.5% in the corresponding quarter of the last year.
The finance cost for the quarter increased to INR 325 million, largely due to higher levels of debt. During this period, we also completed our investment in MMRF IC of INR 200 million. So the last installment was paid during the fourth quarter. We also invested in a renewables energy project during the fourth quarter, which will help us improve our overall green power percentage in the total energy consumption. Our profit after tax for Q4 stood at INR 465 million versus INR 354 million during the last year. On a full year basis, coming to the full year basis, the revenue from operations surged by 20% year-over-year to INR 2,100... Sorry, INR 28,114 million.
The growth in auto tech-agnostic, xEV and non-auto, which represents our emerging business, outperform the auto ICE business.
...34% versus 18%. So the growth in the focus segments of technology, xEV and non-auto was at 34%, whereas the growth in auto ICE segment was at 18%. As Preetham mentioned, we have multiple levers in place which will help this momentum to continue in the foreseeable future. With this effect of operating leverage, we were able to deliver a superior growth of 25% in our EBITDA, resulting in EBITDA of INR 4,800 million, with a margin of 17.1%, which is a marked improvement against the performance of last year. The net profit for the year stood at INR 1,875 million, registering a growth of 26%. On the debt front, our net debt stood at INR 7.4 billion.
On the cash flow side, our cash conversion remains good and our operating cash flow generation improved from 11% of the revenue in FY 2023 to 13% of revenue in FY 2024. Also, the operating cash as a percentage of EBITDA improved from 67% to 78%. Our CapEx for the period stood at INR 3.4 billion, including 70% in plant and equipment, 15% in facilities expansion and balance in maintenance and other categories. On a like-to-like basis, our ROC improved from 15.3% in FY 2023 to 16.9% or close to 17% in FY 2024.
If you look at these numbers a bit differently by excluding the capital work in progress from both the periods, because that generally is a no investment which is still to start delivering results, the ROC growth will be, will look like 17.7% from 16.2% of the last year. Our company is in a growth phase and a lot of investments that we have made over the past few years are not fully mature or in the process of getting mature. Hence, there is headroom for improvement or increase in return profile over a period of time. I would like to conclude this presentation and open the floor for Q&A. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking questions. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Bharat Sheth from Quest Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning and congratulations. Am I audible?
Yes. Yes, you are, sir.
Good morning. I mean, Preetham and Vikas on, very good number. So taking ahead, I mean, if you can give a little more color on the, first is on this aerospace and defense , where we have been. Defense, of course, is, is not relevant, but the aerospace numbers are not in line. So how do we see? And second thing, we have full potential of around INR 350 crore in the new from the existing new facility. Whereas we have order book of around INR 153 crore peak revenue. So how do we really see the growth of this aerospace and what has led, I mean, in Q4 or FY 2024, where we have not been really able to reach? And defense also, if you can give some more color.
Yeah, thank you, Mr. Bharat. Yes, in fact, during our previous two earnings calls as well, we had indicated that, see, our dependence on the aerospace is largely on two OEMs, and especially on a North American-based OEM, through our tier ones as well as direct suppliers, is almost 65%-70% of our revenue comes from them. Now, couple of programs which were scheduled to start in the last year, got postponed due to the regulatory approvals for the OEMs. So resulting in push out of our orders to the subsequent quarter.
So we expect that these, you know, all these, because there are a lot of processes that have been put in place, to, you know, strengthen a lot of supply chain related issues as well. So we expect that things would be much, much better in this year. While the order book remains to be very, very strong, you know, our expected revenue generation this year again is expected to be very strong, very close to 40%-50% growth. But I would be guarded, because, you know, a lot of things are happening in aerospace segment, which actually is all positive. But we as a company are very, very positive. In fact, you know, all the capacities are in place.
As you rightly said, this facility of ours is equipped to deliver at least INR 350 crores- INR 400 crores worth of revenue. And if you really look at our order book, is also quite strong. So we expect that this year will be a good year for aerospace, commercial aerospace. Now, in terms of defense, as you know, that defense is a new segment for us, directly through Sansera, as well as through our newly invested associate company, which is MMRFIC.
So there's a lot of exciting projects that we are working on, both with Indian companies as well as with government of Indian government of companies, which are like HAL and DRDO and all the government agencies as well, and also some very marquee foreign clients. So, not much of information can be divulged on this, but our journey into defense has begun, and we are very quite bullish and excited on this.
So Preetham, I mean, color on this aerospace, what are we doing to de-risk up from this to North American OEM to...? Are we adding the customer? And when we are talking and by 2027, what is our vision for aerospace to contribute? What kind of revenue?
So we expect. No, we have already added. We are working on increasing not only the value addition, but also the product portfolio itself. We have added Saab as our customers, where we have added Triumph Aerospace as our customer, where these are primarily to de-risk our business. And then to further strengthen our offering in the aerospace field, the board has also given a clearance to add special process facility to our existing machining facility. This would mean that a lot of dependency, which we have today on external source for special process, would be de-bottlenecked in terms of both capability and capacity.
So with all these things, we expect that the entire, what I said is, this facility would be used fully by FY 2027.
So, what kind of revenue do you have an aspiration to get from aerospace?
When I say that, this facility would be able to deliver INR 350 crores, and it would be fully utilized. I'm sure we are looking at the by FY 2027 to fulfill this entire facility with order. So we should. We are looking at anywhere between INR 350-INR 400 crores of revenue by FY 2027.
Okay, great. I have question for the Vikas on the bookkeeping. Hello?
Yeah.
Vikas?
You can ask.
See, Vikas, if I'm trying to reach, I mean, what you have given, see, FY 2023 order book versus the FY 2020 closing order book. See, in FY 2023, we had a revenue of around INR 2,300 crore, and 600 has moved into this year, say, into mass production. So it should work out something INR 2,938 crore, but our revenue is coming INR 2,800 crore. So it's, does it mean that there was some kind of a dip in the, from the previous customer, and that has brought down those revenues? So how do we really see, I mean, order book playing out, and then there's some kind of, I mean, some component moving out of our sales revenue? If you can give little more color.
Sure, sir. Sure, sure. So, the process that we follow, as and when the particular product goes into mass production, and we have reasonable certainty that it will continue growing, we exclude it from the order book at the end of the year. Now, this does not mean if we remove INR 600 crore worth of orders, it is not delivering INR 600 crore as of now, but INR 600 crore is the peak annual volume. So this will-
Okay.
Still take some time to reach the peak levels.
Okay, fair. Okay.
The growth in revenue that we see from last year to this year is partially through this order book and partially through other growth factors.
To add to what Vikas has said in order book, see, we do not take any kind of this is an LOI volume that would be indicated by the by the OEM. So we generally take it as the same, because we need to create capacities as well on that. But generally, when you look at this, this would also include their market expected projections. So there would be about 10%-15% variation, both plus or negative side on each of the orders, depending on how the market receives those kind of models. So when we say that INR 600 crore is the LOI volume, so we should take some kind of you know haircut when we are. We do the task when we are creating the facility.
So when we move the INR 600 crore order, it is partial contribution has come in the previous FY 2024. There would be contribution in FY 2025, and I think most probably this would peak out in FY 2026. So that is how you should look at.
Okay. Preetham, or Vikas, I mean, you said that operating leverage is playing out, but that operating leverage is, I have seen that particularly in Q4, our EBITDA has improved only because of improvement in the gross margin. But other expenses are, I mean, as a percentage to sales, has almost remained same. So how do we see the EBITDA if, assuming that this gross margin sustain at this level? So if you can give little more color.
Sir, there are two pieces in this. One is the product mix, which largely impacts positively or negatively the gross margin. Secondly, is the manufacturing efficiency or operating efficiency. The improvement projects that we are running on a regular basis in various streams for improving the cost efficiency, that also works. And, of course, third piece of operating leverage or margin efficiency comes from the operating leverage when the volume increases, which is other expenses. So there could be in the fourth quarter, specifically if you see, we had a slightly higher freight cost because of the in Red Sea crisis. That was partially responsible, not fully responsible, it was not a significant cost.
Similarly, there would have been certain other minor costs, but we've been able to maintain the cost, not increase it substantially despite the growth in revenue.
Okay, great. Last but not least question: so this forex loss, can you give little color?
I'll request you to come back for a follow-up question.
Okay, sure.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address the questions from all the participants, please limit your questions to two per participants. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Jain from Alf Accurate Advisors. Please go ahead.
Thanks for opportunity, and congrats on strong set of numbers. But, you said CapEx was high, around INR 340 crore, and that's where the debt has increased to INR 890 crore, and it has reflected also in the finance cost. I just wanted to understand, what is the, what is your debt to current plan ahead, and what kind of the CapEx we can see in the next two years?
Sorry, Abhishek, can you repeat your question and go a little slow?
Sure. Sir, what is your CapEx plan for the next two years, and what is your debt repayment plan going ahead?
See, we are a growing company, and there is a very strong order book, especially on new generation of components, higher CC engines and this thing. So this all requires... And we are in vertically integrated facilities. Generally, our kind of components also requires front loading of our CapEx. So this year, because we are adding some 4,000-ton press, 2,500-ton press, and there's a lot of front loading of forging capacity is the thing. We are looking at approximately about INR 400 crore of CapEx this year.
Going forward in the next year, it should be back to our normal range of between INR 300 crore-INR 350 crore, depending on the kind of order inflows that will be there. But since the order book is very strong and we are also looking at adding capabilities, so there would be some front-loaded investment this year.
Okay.
We are quite confident that, you know, with our cash flow and a marginal increase in our debt profile, we will be able to, you know, manage our investments. And we are reasonably, you know, very light on leveraging, so we have not leveraged highly. So we have option of taking further, you know, debt in case it is required. We will keep our options open as to how do we go about this funding of this.
Okay. Sir, the current non-auto segment is around 12.5%. So how do you see the growth ahead, and what kind of the mix you are looking for in auto versus non-auto in the coming years, by a FY 2026-2027?
Now, if you really look at our overall full year basis, our auto ICE is at 76%, and our other businesses of non-auto, xEV and tech-agnostic stands at 24%. But if you really look at the exit quarter, it is slightly higher. It is almost at 26% instead of 24%. So going forward, we have already said that on a longer term, we intend to reach 40% of our revenues coming from xEV as well as non-auto and tech-agnostic components. And if you really look at our business order book, the future order book, it is very well acquired.
Our businesses are flowing in that, to actually say that, in fact, our order wins are significantly higher in this category of components. So we are quite confident that, our vision, we are progressing towards achieving our numbers in that.
Okay, sir. And my last question on the other expenses side. So basically, it is quite high, around 26%-27%. And, this quarter, you have impacted because of the Red Sea issues. So what is your plan to reduce the other expenses, for, to this ratio and improve the margin?
... So as I mentioned earlier, there are various projects which are underway currently in terms of improving the operating efficiency or the manufacturing efficiency in various areas. We have invested in the fourth quarter in a green energy or a renewables energy project, which will further improve our ratio of renewable energy. So this not only helps us to contribute towards the sustainability, it also helps us to improve or reduce our costs. Then there are various other projects currently underway. So we are sure that we'll be able to handle or keep other costs under control.
What is the EBITDA margin in international business versus domestic business? Because in domestic, international business, you are facing some issues in Sweden, and that's why it's impacting margin as well. So if you can throw some light over there, what's your plan in margin over there?
Sweden business is a small portion of the total international business. Our total international business is about 32%, out of which Sweden is hardly 6%. 26% of our total revenue comes from exports from India, which is a very, very fast growing segment. We are quite positive that this fast growth in the export from India, which definitely is at the highest margin ratio compared to the other two segments, will continue to help us positively.
Thank you, sir. That's all from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Arjun from Kotak Mahindra Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir, for taking my question, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, just continuing from some of the previous questions. Firstly, in terms of utilization, if you could just talk about that, where we are currently, and of the CapEx, you mentioned INR 400 crore for FY 2025. How much is it for new capabilities, and what are these new capabilities that we are talking of?
Hi, good morning. On the utilization of the capacities that we have, we had spoken about that this year we might reach around 69%-70%. We are very much on track and slightly better than that. So as the existing business continues and as the domestic market grows, we will continue to improve this. We optimally think that the best in the auto sector could be 80% of capacity utilization, so it's because of cyclic behavior during the entire year. That's on the current capacity. On the CapEx side, typically, we are talking about close to around 40% growth going into auto ICE and most of the CapEx going into newer technologies, which could be aluminum and it could be tech-agnostic, EV and non-auto. We are on a track on a broad basis and will continue to do so going forward.
In terms of asset, Just to add to what Praveen has said, in the last year, we've added almost 26% of our capacity has gone into EVs and CVs on auto ICE. About 40%, that is, 20 out of 40% has gone into tech-agnostic component and non-auto. Only about 15% has gone into auto two-wheelers in the legacy components, but that 15% also is for high-end premium vehicles category of investment. So, mostly our new investments are going into, as I said, into higher category of engine components like, you know, industrial engines and agriculture and heavy commercial vehicles, and as well as 40% has gone into tech-agnostic and, like, non-auto.
Essentially, this enables us to increase our addressable market?
Right. Right.
Sure. And, does this INR 400 crore also include overseas capacity?
No, no, it does not include any overseas capacity. There is some investment that is being done in our Sweden facility to increase our automation levels for the new order that we have acquired, but that is to an extent of about INR 15 crore- INR 16 crore. Other than that, there is no other investment that is considered for any overseas facility.
Sure. Sir, the second one, just on Sweden. So this year, just working on numbers, we are very close to the target that we mentioned in the previous conference call of INR 160 crore. Just wanted to understand, what would our EBITDA margins be for the year, for the overseas, for Sweden? And, in terms of our outlook for FY 2025, 2026, since we are investing for new capacities, is there—what could be the size of the order win?
So basically, I'll just first tell you about the order win, and then Vikas and Praveen can talk about the EBITDA margin and what we are looking at. See, when Arjun, if you like, during the last year, we had said that Volvo has taken up this de-risking proposal, where we had, wherever we were 100%, we have been cut by about 20%, 30%, 35%, and we have got similar order. So in that process... There are two kinds of lines were operated in Sweden facility. One is a high volume, fully automated line, in which we were 100%, we were catering to 100% of Volvo's requirement.
While the volume from that line was cut, and they have added new components, which was generally done on a mixed line, which was primarily, not automated fully. So, if we have to continue doing that way, then it will cost a lot of labor cost, and it would not be feasible for us to produce. So what we have decided is, since they have a 17-liter engine order has been confirmed to us, and this is what is going to take us back into the normal levels of revenue, which will be in excess of about INR 200 crores. So we are investing about INR 15-16 crores in automating the second line in order to ensure that it becomes feasible, and we are on track for about 10%-11% of EBITDA. Now, current year, Praveen, can you just state the current year numbers and see what we are looking at?
See, current year is a transition period. We, the investments have just started, and it may take around three to four months at least to do that activity, and after that only we'll start getting the benefits of that automation. So current year being the transition period, we expect a marginal improvement from last year's numbers, but the real, margin improvement would happen in FY 2026. So that's where we stand on the overall business. We are on a growth track, as I think mentioned, that we have acquired, an order of 17-liter connecting rods in a 100% capacity. So that full volumes would actually appear in the next financial year, which is 2026.
2026 would be an interesting year to see where margin improvements would happen and the top line growth would also happen.
This year we should expect between 5% and 6% EBITDA, Arjun.
And then move in 2026 to closer to 10?
Yeah, 11%. 10%-11% is what.
For FY 2024, we would have done closer to low single-digit 1%-2% margins?
6.4%.
Oh, okay. Sure. For, so we are expecting flat margins 2024-2025?
That's right. That's right. That's right.
Sure. Perfect. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Lakshminarayanan from Tunga Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, a couple of questions from my side. The first is in, what, you know, what is the absolute debt, and the percentage of debt you like to keep, and on the standalone basis?
You, you mean, money per so-
Yes.
You mean,
Absolute net debt, as a percentage, as well as, on an absolute basis, over the next couple of years.
Can you repeat the question? We couldn't hear it properly. Sorry.
In terms of debt on the standalone basis.
[crosstalk] You're not audible. We are not audible.
Is it better now?
Yeah, slightly better. Yes.
Yeah. My question is, in terms of debt on the books, on the standalone basis, what is the absolute debt in INR million, as well as in terms of the percentage, in terms of debt equity you like to maintain, for FY 2025 and FY 2026?
Sir, in FY 2024, the absolute net debt that we had was INR 6,419 million for FY 2024. Going forward, and this basically on a consolidated level, it translates to a debt equity of 0.54. Going forward, we believe that the debt equity will continue to improve because we used to be 0.57 in FY 2022, reduced to 0.55, and now 0.54. Going forward, we expect this to marginally improve because we are generating a lot of operating cash also in the business. Bulk of the investments will be funded through the cash generation itself.
Got it. Now, in terms of the CapEx, in the last year and also in the next two years, FY 2025 and 2026, which segment you like to spend the CapEx on? Of course, you mentioned 4,000-ton press, 2,000-ton press, etc. Among the various segments like two-wheelers, aerospace, defense, how the debt was... I mean, how the CapEx was spent on machinery as well as land for the last year, and how do you think in the next couple of years? Just broad numbers would help.
Sir, I had referred to that in the remarks that, so about 70% of the investment was made in the plant and equipment during last year. 15% was spent on facilities expansion, that is land and building, and balance 15% was on maintenance and other categories like IT and miscellaneous categories. So that's how it was spent last year. Going forward, this year, bulk of the investments will be on the forging and machining side, and we are also building a new facility for the new forge shop for the larger presses that we are acquiring. The new factory or expansion of the building of factory is under construction as of now. So that will be another major item this year.
Well, my question is slightly different, sir. I just wanted to understand which segments we are spending, because what we understand is that in two-wheelers our utilization is low, therefore, we are actually spending incremental CapEx on the other businesses... So just while we are given in terms of plans, especially, you know, land and others, just want to check from a business point of view, is that how one should think about it, or that's how the company looks at it?
Yeah. So, as you have seen, there has been a good improvement in terms of our utilization now in even the two-wheeler segment. Last year has had a healthy growth. This year also, we expect that it should be back to normal. So our utilization levels would become normal in terms of two-wheeler, but we are not actually investing anything on the legacy components in two-wheeler. About 40%-45% of our investments would still be going into tech-agnostic and non-automotive segments, which means that we will be investing into aluminum forging lines, machining lines, anodizing facility for an aluminum. We are also investing into a few of the machines in aerospace and defense.
Meanwhile, as we have also indicated, that we have received some good orders from our auto PV, the thing we have added, Ford Motor Company, as our, we, we never had Ford Motor Company as our listing in the fourth quarter. We have added business. We have won about INR 75 crore worth of business. That's the first of the business that we have won from them, and we expect a lot of good progress with that customer as well. So, passenger vehicle will continue to attract our investment, and there is investment that is planned for heavy engine category, which constitutes both HEVs as well as industrial engines. So primarily, our investments are towards all the new generation of components and segments that we are focusing on.
Just one more question I want to ask you. So if I just step back and look at it, there is a lot of products which you make, which are all built to print, right? So you actually make whatever the OE or whoever asks for it. And there are certain products you may think of building a system, right? So just want to understand how, where are we on that journey in terms of building to print and versus building to non-print? What is the ratio you are now, and what do you aspire to be?
No, when we say that, when we are doing build to print, it is not exactly build to print, because most of the newer generation of components are either co-designed or designed from statement of requirements. And then, designs are also validated through finite element analysis and also testing them in-house to validate the designs. So mostly that, you know, all our newer components, newer businesses, we participate in design to manufacture, so a lot of input and co-design happens from our side. As far as the system supplies are concerned, this would be primarily driven by the OEM strategy. See, with already with Maruti, we supply connecting rod and piston assemblies. While, you know, it would be almost 50%, 50% piston manufacturers supplies as an assembly.
They buy connecting rod, assemble it, and send it, or we buy, pistons and rings and assemble it and give it to, Maruti. This kind of, transition into, you know, the full system assembly has happened in the, like, crankshaft assembly for, the entire two-wheelers are now being supplied. So we, we buy crankpins, we make crankshafts and connecting rods, we buy bearings, we buy, sprockets, and then assemble and, supply as a full crankshaft assembly. Now, this has already happened in, Indian OEMs-
Mm-hmm.
-which is becoming more and more prominent, but in international OEMs, this has just started. So we expect that over the time that we will graduate into that. That is on automotive, but in aerospace, we are already looking at becoming more and more subsystem supplier.
So on the design to manufacture, what is the broad revenue? I mean, I agree that that usually gets higher margins for us. So, any how the company is transitioning at the present?
Mr. Lakshminarayanan , more than higher margins, I think it becomes a kind of, you know, protected design. Because when we do a participative design, the design becomes joint ownership. So it becomes much more protective business case. Rather, that is what we look at, rather than. Of course, there will be costs that are going to be compensated-
Mm-hmm.
Related to testing and designing, which is part of our, you know, tooling, cost that comes engineering and tooling cost. But this will primarily help in securing and, you know, protecting our businesses, towards improving share of business and protecting them.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address the questions from all the participants, please limit your questions to two per participants. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sakshat Goel from ICICI Pru. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello, am I audible?
Yes.
Hi, sir. Congratulations on the set of numbers. So just one question, basically, on the existing asset block post FY 2024, what can be our peak revenues and can you break it segment wise?
Thank you, sir. May I request you to use the handset, please?
... Hello.
Yeah, that's from-
On the existing asset block, what can be our peak revenues, like post FY 2024, and can you break it, give an idea segment-wise, like on two-wheeler EVs, then on probably aerospace, so that it gives us a better idea where are we in terms of utilization across segments, and why are CapEx amount, why are we further investing so much in FY 2025?
Okay. You know, it may be difficult to give you a kind of how breakup on how we are looking at, so each segment definitely are what we are looking at for the next year growth prospects is definitely that we, you know, we will continue our momentum. We have assumed certain industry numbers, but when we see the momentum, momentum is much better than our assumption. So we expect that, as we have continued to deliver 20%+ growth, we expect that this momentum will continue.
But with the current FY 2024 base, with a reasonably good utilization of about 80%-85%, we should be able to, you know, hit a peak revenue per quarter of about INR 900 crore, potentially. So this is what we can do potentially. Of course, it depends on, you know, sector mix and how each sector utilization happens. So, we will, with our capacities that are installed on a FY 2024 end base, we should be able to generate a revenue of nine hundred crores per quarter, on a peak utilization basis.
Got it. Understood. Sir, just one more question on the CapEx numbers which we have outlined for next year. Does it also consider any inorganic opportunity or that would be separate?
No, that would be all organic.
Yeah.
Based on the order book visibility that we have.
Okay, got it. And are we actively looking for any inorganic opportunity as well, or that would be all?
We are not scouting in the market, but we are open to good opportunities.
So we work with a lot of initiatives which are initiated by ACMA as well as Indian Institute of Science, so we come across and meet a lot of startups. So, if and this is a process that, in that process itself, we have invested in MMRFIC as well. So we keep looking at it, and if anything is relevant and we find it, technologically advanced opportunity that comes in our way, we would look at it, but nothing specific.
Okay. And just lastly, on MMRFIC-
Sorry to interrupt you, sir. I request you to come back for a follow-up question. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Siddhartha Bera from Nomura. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, sir. Sir, first question is on the order wins for the quarter. If I calculate, it comes to somewhere about INR 160 crore in the quarter. Probably you indicated that we have got about INR 75 crore from Ford. Any other big order wins which are there? And going ahead, how are you sort of thinking about customers or segments for the coming year?
Thank you, sir. Yes, approximately, you're right, about INR 150 crores of orders approximately were added. Major wins were from Ford. 50% of that was from one of the orders that we have received from Ford Motor Company. This is on a program where we have got a partial order from this, and we expect that a very similar sized order should—we should be able to get from their another overseas unit for the same connecting rod program. But, when I say that, we have also added Triumph Aerospace and Collins Aerospace have also given another INR 20 crores order for aerospace business. So aerospace has got about INR 30 crores of order in that quarter as well.
We have actually added one more connecting rod from Tata Motors into that. Now, talking about the momentum, yes, of course, our existing order, our existing clients, both from North America, both you know the traditional OEMs as well as marquee EV customer, we have been talking about a very interesting projects, which you see a lot of order wins coming in this year. There's a lot of momentum even for Latin America, and this is also aided by some troubles that they have been going through because of the flux and this thing, which is also contributing to accelerating those discussions with us.
So there's a good momentum in, you know, North America as well as Latin American space in the order inflows for us.
Got it. Sir, second question is on this EV side. If you see, xEVs in FY 2024, you were at about 4.5% in terms of xEV revenues, and given the order book, you are expecting that to go up to 9.5%. I do see that you have also added another EV customer in the current two EV actually customers in the current quarter. So some color here, who, which are these customers, which segments, and where are we seeing a stronger traction, is it India or export markets?
... Basically, it's one of our, Japanese-based, two-wheeler manufacturers for whom the new EV would be launched, so we have got some component business out of them, so that becomes a newer customer for us. We have also gained-- I mean, our EV last year, if you know that, we had said that we have actually made a one of the exits from one of the two-wheeler OEMs. So that actually reduced our growth in xEV components last year. But this year, we expect because of our commercialization of EV components to North America, as well as starting of the newer components into the existing two-wheeler market customers, as well as this thing, we expect to double the revenue coming out of xEV in this year.
xEV portfolio looks very strong, plus there are a lot of interesting RFQs that we are working on for the overseas customer as well.
Great, sir. Thanks a lot. Welcome back in the team.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mumuksh Mandlesha from Anand Rathi Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much for the opportunity, and congratulations on good growth performance. So just want to check with the North American marquee order, how the ramp-up is going, sir. How are they production plan for the product? Is there any change in expedition than earlier what we guided?
No, we have not at least seen any change. We should cross, you know, 100 crores of revenue this year with that customer. We expect a strong business relationship going forward as well. We have started delivering. All our developed products have got into commercial production. We expect a very strong momentum in that. We have not seen any cut in significant reduction in any of the projections from that.
Got it, sir. On, as you mentioned about the aerospace of 40%-50% growth, can you also mention for the non-auto and tech-agnostic, what kind of growth do you see for FY 2025?
So non-auto and tech- agnostic, we expect about 40% growth in the coming year. So, that is what is approximately, I can tell you from the current base for this thing. So, this year, we will grow by about 40% in both non-auto and tech- agnostic. And I told you that xEV, we will grow by about 100%.
Got it, sir. Just lastly, on MMRFIC, I think this quarter there was some profit from associate. So is it relating this MMRFIC? And just want to see, how is the revenue projection for this business?
So I think there is a lot of this coming from, you know, still not a full-fledged production revenues, while there is some stocking up of the components from the customers where this, you know, the defense radars which is being developed for by them. So yes, this associate company profit that has been added is our proportion of investment that has been considered. I think it's, yeah, INR 5 million or so. Yeah.
Yeah. Got it. And in the revenue side, any view, sir, what kind of numbers?
I think this year, we are looking at about INR 20 crores of revenue from MMRFIC.
Got it, sir. Thank you so much for this, sir.
Thank you. The next follow-up question is from the line of Bharat Sheth from Quest Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. Sir, now coming back little more on the MMRFIC, we have 20% stake. So what is our future roadmap? Are we going to increase our stake? Or if we told then what level, I mean, what will be the, how the valuation will be done, and what kind of amount will be required?
I think I had addressed this issue, but I will I will-
Sure.
Again say that, that, we have the right to go up to 51%.
Right.
And when the company requires the capital, we will, we will access it. And we have the right, but we don't have an obligation. We have a right to go up to 51%. And here, the valuation is capped based on whatever is agreed. So, we, it's a predetermined valuation, though there could be very upside in terms of their performance, but we have capped our valuation just to ensure that, you know, we get the leverage of our investments in this, into this company. So, just to give you a proper answer, this is, we will be at 51% over the next couple of years. And this fund infusion will happen as and when they require any funds.
This year, I don't see any kind of investment that they will require.
Okay, and one more question for Vikas. Vikas, is the exchange losses, can you give some color on the nature of that loss?
Yeah. So basically, there are two elements to the foreign exchange gain or loss. One is the gain that we actually realize on the transactions which are completed. Second leg of the gain or loss is the mark-to-market measurement of the open exposures, whether in terms of outstanding receivables and payables or in terms of outstanding forward contracts. So this year, towards the end of the year, we have a certain negative on account of the mark-to-market measurement, and that is actually resulting in this negative here. And it's not a real, it's a notional loss, which will be get reset as we move on.
Okay, great. Thank you and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take this as the last question, and I'll hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you very much for all of you for your participation and all the questions that you have had. Thank you for your patience. We are very confident of a good performance in the coming year as well. As explained, you know, we are moving towards a long-term vision of 60% of our business coming from auto, again, predominantly from commercial vehicles, high-end motorcycles, passenger vehicles. And then for 40% of our business would come from non-automotive ICE and xEV and tech-agnostic components. Company is very confident of delivering, you know, industry-best growth numbers. We expect that at least 10% additional growth to the industry growth in the coming years as well.
As demonstrated, we will also be working on various initiatives to improve our margins year on year. With this, I conclude this call, and thank you very much for all your patience here. Thank you very much.
Thank you. On behalf of PhillipCapital Private Client Group, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.